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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. When you say

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Speaker 1: the name Kathleen Folbick, you may get a few different reactions.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen spent twenty years behind bars, found guilty on May

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Speaker 1: twenty one, two thousand and three, and initially sentenced to

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Speaker 1: forty years in prison with a non prole period of

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Speaker 1: thirty Kathleen was released from prison on the fifth of

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Speaker 1: June twenty twenty three after science stepped in and gave

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Speaker 1: an explanation as to what really happened to Caleb, Patrick, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: and Laura. For the now fifty eight year old, having

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Speaker 1: spent two years out in the real world, just how

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Speaker 1: hard is it to make people understand that you are

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Speaker 1: actually innocent when for so long you were considered guilty?

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Speaker 1: How do you emerge from that life to form a

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Speaker 1: new one after having so much of your young life

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Speaker 1: taken away?

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Speaker 2: I'm Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's

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Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

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Speaker 1: the most about them. Kathleen Forebig's life has been dissected

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Speaker 1: in court and in the court of public opinion for decades.

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Speaker 1: A young woman facing the worst a young mother could

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Speaker 1: possibly face the death of four babies, was also facing

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Speaker 1: hate and vitriol of an Australian public who saw her

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Speaker 1: as a monster, a fellow prison inmates who saw her

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Speaker 1: as a target of a system that would take twenty

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Speaker 1: years to catch up to her innocence. Kathleen and her

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Speaker 1: best friend Tracy Chapman continue to advocate for women who

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Speaker 1: find themselves in a similar situation and are now telling

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Speaker 1: their story together. Tracy was unable to join us for

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Speaker 1: this interview, but her voice shines through in their book

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Speaker 1: Inside Out, which Kathleen does talk about as well as

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Speaker 1: much more. Kathleen joins us now, Kathleen, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today here on True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 1: We feel really honored to have shared some of your

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Speaker 1: story before, but to be able to sit down and

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Speaker 1: speak to you about it and your experience, I think

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Speaker 1: is we feel very honored that you've said yes to

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Speaker 1: sit down with us today, So thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you're welcome, and thank you for allowing the time

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Speaker 3: and letting everybody have to say so that's good.

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Speaker 1: It really did want to find out from you what

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Speaker 1: it's been like for you, not just since your release,

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Speaker 1: but the moment you found out while you were in

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Speaker 1: jail that Tracy was fighting for you, that your friend

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Speaker 1: had decided to take matters into her own hands and

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Speaker 1: really fight for you. Do you remember that moment when

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Speaker 1: you realize that was happening outside the walls.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was such a gradual thing, you know, like

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Speaker 3: she started to visit me, I think primarily just as

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Speaker 3: you know, one of my deep friends in high school

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Speaker 3: and one of my best friends. So she started to

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Speaker 3: break the ice and visit me. But then, of course,

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Speaker 3: then you know, when things start to happen that legally

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Speaker 3: meant we could take a few more extra steps. Her

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Speaker 3: decision to go down the advocacy road, it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: of course, it was major, you know, and you know

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Speaker 3: it's if anyone could have somebody like Tracy in my situation,

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Speaker 3: they should go find one, because you know, it's she's

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Speaker 3: she was pivotal in getting a lot of the stuff done.

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Speaker 3: It's been described in the past, as you know, she

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Speaker 3: sort of created a scaffolding that everybody and you know

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Speaker 3: everybody else that jumped on that scaffolding to help out

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Speaker 3: and volunteer time and money and expertise and all the rest.

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Speaker 3: Without Tracy, you know, building the scaffolding in the first place,

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Speaker 3: it may not have happened at all. So yeah, she's

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Speaker 3: you know, pivotal as far as I'm concerned. We both

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Speaker 3: like to send the message that someone liked Trace to

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Speaker 3: do advocacy in such a big fashion like mine. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of costs that happened. And it's not just monetary.

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Speaker 3: It's emotional, it's mental, it's you know, it can affect

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Speaker 3: what path you take down in life. It's all you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a humongous you know, on flow and ripple effect

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Speaker 3: that happens with it. So for me, it was such

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Speaker 3: a gradual thing. But you know, I do recall saying

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Speaker 3: to you, are you sure you want to do this,

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Speaker 3: and quite often saying you know, I would say during

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Speaker 3: phone discussions, you know, if there's things that you wish

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Speaker 3: to do for yourself, please go do like you know,

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Speaker 3: so I think, especially when we're hitting lulls and nothing

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Speaker 3: was happening and we're all just wondering, what the hell

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Speaker 3: are you doing, I always encouraged and just sort of said, look,

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Speaker 3: if you've got stuff that you want to do then please,

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Speaker 3: do you know, I said, you know, and she tried

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Speaker 3: and did you know that sort of thing I said,

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Speaker 3: But unfortunately, to advocate for a case such as mine

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Speaker 3: that's so complicated and so huge, and because it is

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Speaker 3: your friend, you put one hundred and twenty percent in.

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Speaker 3: You know, she suffered. You know, you didn't get one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty percent back. You know that sort of

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Speaker 3: thing I said, because that's the way the system is.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we argue, Please, she got her friend back and

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Speaker 1: that's probably more than enough payoff at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, you know, I sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: We it's weird because we sort of like I've only

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Speaker 3: been out like three twenty twenty twenty five technically two

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Speaker 3: and a bit eas or something now, and we're both

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Speaker 3: you know, she's the one in the state nom at

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Speaker 3: the other, I said, So we actually no longer sort

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Speaker 3: of really near each other with you know something, so

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Speaker 3: and you know, like life goes on, you know, and

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Speaker 3: it's you know, it's an unfortunate thing to say, like

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Speaker 3: she got her family life and her farm and her animals,

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Speaker 3: and I've got a different direction that's hitting new partner,

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Speaker 3: you know, new home life, gone, went back home, trying

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Speaker 3: to decide what I'm going to do with my future

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Speaker 3: as such, and so we try to stay in touch

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Speaker 3: and be in touch as friends, you know, some thing

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Speaker 3: I said, and that that's all you do.

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Speaker 4: It's all you can do.

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Speaker 3: But of course she knows that I'm always here for

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Speaker 3: if she needs me, and I know that she's always there,

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Speaker 3: I said. So it's a pickbrack bo sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: I said, So I don't think that'll ever change.

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Speaker 4: I don't care.

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Speaker 3: You know, we could be eighty on walking frames and

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Speaker 3: probably still doing it, you know, I said. So. You know,

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Speaker 3: we often used to joke about that as a friend

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Speaker 3: the best, you know, I said, you couldn't ask for

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Speaker 3: anything better. And you know we have ups and downs,

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Speaker 3: and we can argue like a blamie when we're not

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Speaker 3: agreeing on something. So because you know, she can be

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Speaker 3: quite forthright, and I'm very forthright.

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Speaker 4: Once I get going.

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Speaker 2: Two peas in a pod.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned there that you moved back home, given

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Speaker 1: home for you as Newcastle. What was that like for

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Speaker 1: you to go back to a place that would have

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Speaker 1: been so familiar twenty years ago and now is a

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Speaker 1: strange new place.

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Speaker 3: I didn't sort of look at it like a strange

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Speaker 3: new place, like I came home and any of the

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Speaker 3: navigation of the basic outlay of Newcastle hasn't really changed.

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Speaker 3: What I did discover was that there's a round about

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Speaker 3: every five seconds, which was getting used.

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Speaker 2: To Canberra esque no longer exists, and.

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Speaker 3: Stations have disappeared, and you know, all those sorts of

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Speaker 3: things shopping centers seem to have grown exponentially and take

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Speaker 3: up whole city. I said, So those sorts of things

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Speaker 3: I had to get used to, but basic streets of

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Speaker 3: where I used to hang when I was a kid

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Speaker 3: or learned to drive or my younger life are all

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Speaker 3: still there. So the basic layout is my hometown. So

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Speaker 3: you know, to me it was also a I think

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Speaker 3: I was just determined to go home because it was

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Speaker 3: to me like a finishing of a complete circle. You know, Okay,

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Speaker 3: my circle went one way and got disrupted, and I

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Speaker 3: went off and all sorts of weird passes to where

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Speaker 3: life sort of goes, totally not expecting it to end

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Speaker 3: up where it ended up, I said, But I was

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Speaker 3: determined to make it end up back in Newcastle and

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Speaker 3: say I'm home now, and let's get on with life

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Speaker 3: and let's go forward.

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Speaker 1: I think we are so intensely interested in what your

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Speaker 1: life is looking like now because that transition for you,

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Speaker 1: like so much has changed in the time that you're incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: I mean, technology has changed almost to a place where

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Speaker 1: it would be unrecognizable if you were to drop someone

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Speaker 1: into it twenty years after they've left it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people have changed, relationships with people have changed. What's the

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Speaker 1: thing that you think you've struggled to come to terms

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Speaker 1: with the most. We will presume it's something like technology.

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Speaker 1: But you've connected to us. We use a program called riverside.

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Speaker 1: You're on your laptop. You seem to be quite fine

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Speaker 1: with technology, But what is the things that you're finding

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Speaker 1: the most difficult to navigate in this new world?

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Speaker 3: I just I struggle a little bit with how much

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Speaker 3: life becomes a pressure for people these days. You know,

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Speaker 3: you go back twenty odd years, I feel like people

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Speaker 3: were far more relaxed and how they were going about things,

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Speaker 3: where everything now seems to be on fast forward high speed.

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Speaker 3: People have to have, you know, eighty nineteen hours out

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Speaker 3: of a day of a twenty four hour period just

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Speaker 3: to get anything done. I said, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: sad for me because I'm just sort of like, oh gosh,

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Speaker 3: you know, no such thing as your nine to five

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Speaker 3: job anymore, you know, I said, the exist, But people

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Speaker 3: go to work at seven thirty, is dead at nine,

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Speaker 3: and end up there until seven thirty eight, nine o'clock

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Speaker 3: before they finished, you know, I said, So that sort

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Speaker 3: of the amount of pressure that people are under to

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Speaker 3: just to cope with the cost of living that seems

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Speaker 3: to have skyrocketed and have gone through the roof in

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Speaker 3: twenty years, you know, I said, So that was a

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Speaker 3: big eye opener for me. And you know, yes, technology

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Speaker 3: is a little bit. Yeah, I succeeded in doing this,

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Speaker 3: but as I said, I was here for half an

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Speaker 3: hour pressing buttons to make sure that I could. And

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Speaker 3: who knows what I've affected somewhere else online by doing it,

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Speaker 3: So I'll probably find I've lost one of my own

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Speaker 3: breaking somewhere along the way, you know, and the whole

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Speaker 3: you know, I find it quite disconcerting that there is

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Speaker 3: a lack of communication, conversation and people just don't look

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Speaker 3: up anymore. It's all this, you know, And I don't

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Speaker 3: know how many times I've you know, pedestrians have just

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Speaker 3: gone marched out in the middle of the road, and

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Speaker 3: I've had to go whoa because they have none and

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Speaker 3: looked up to see if they were going to get

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Speaker 3: hit by car.

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Speaker 4: So I do. I do find that to live disconcerting.

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Speaker 1: Have you succumbed to the screen yourself, though, Kathleen, to a.

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Speaker 4: Certain time of the night, it's off and I don't

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Speaker 4: look again.

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Speaker 3: And I have a bad habit of just leaving it

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Speaker 3: somewhere and forgetting to bring it with me because I'm

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Speaker 3: not you know, I can take the dog.

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Speaker 4: For a walk a good twenty minutes and go left

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Speaker 4: the phone at home. Too bad if anything happens to

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Speaker 4: me because I can't have my phone.

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Speaker 2: We can all learn a thing or two from you,

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Speaker 2: I tell.

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Speaker 3: You, so. Yeah, it takes a bit of getting this

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Speaker 3: to you know, Facebook, I only do as in you know,

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Speaker 3: I've got some friends on there, a few, and that's it.

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Speaker 3: I don't sort of do anything else. Googles my friend

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Speaker 3: on the laptop, I must say, I find out a

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Speaker 3: lot of interesting stuff.

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Speaker 4: You know, It's probably more than I need to know.

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Speaker 2: Have you googled yourself?

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Speaker 3: I have occasionally had a look and just been shocked

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Speaker 3: at how much stuff's actually up there, and to see

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Speaker 3: that it's even on YouTube of all places, I'm just

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Speaker 3: sort of like, oh my goodness, you know, but you know,

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Speaker 3: it is what it is, and you know, I made

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Speaker 3: the decision to open up and give some information because

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Speaker 3: everyone seemed to be just so wanting to know that.

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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, there's a few bubbles that needed

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Speaker 3: bursting and some correct.

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Speaker 4: Information that needed to come out.

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Speaker 3: So that was one of the reasons why I said

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Speaker 3: Yesak and decided to swallow the fear and just start

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Speaker 3: doing some interviews and then go for it.

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Speaker 1: Can you take uspeak to the day you were actually

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Speaker 1: released from prison because we'd heard rumblings via the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Supreme Court that potentially something might be happening,

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Speaker 1: and then it all happened so very quickly, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden you were just out, and we

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Speaker 1: were all scrambling because we're like, we weren't expecting this

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Speaker 1: to happen right now. So there's US journalists frantically typing

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Speaker 1: away on our keyboards to let everyone know that Kathleen

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Speaker 1: was out. But what was that experience like for you

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Speaker 1: on that day? Did you know something was coming. Was

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Speaker 1: there any inkling that you were going to be released

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Speaker 1: that day? What did that day look like for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, we were all just that that day was going

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Speaker 3: to roll around. We didn't think it would take as

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Speaker 3: long as it did. After, you know, his honorable Bath

249
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Speaker 3: has put down his basic finding saying, you know, nothing

250
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Speaker 3: to see here, not sure why she's still there. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, there was a good few months. I was

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Speaker 3: still wandering around working and having to live the jar life,

253
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Speaker 3: with staff even saying why you're still here and others

254
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Speaker 3: none of us knowing. So it was sort of like

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Speaker 3: just treading water waiting to see, you know, were they

256
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Speaker 3: going to do the right thing and give the pardon

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Speaker 3: and release or what were they going to do or

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Speaker 3: were we going to have to keep fighting and scrambling

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Speaker 3: to sort of get someone to say something. So, even

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Speaker 3: though we wanted it to happen and we sort of

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Speaker 3: knew it was going to eventually, it was always like

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Speaker 3: wet fish in the face because it was all very sudden, unjust.

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Speaker 3: It was just a bit of a shock. And that

264
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Speaker 3: particular day I was just working in Jarl life normal

265
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Speaker 3: and sent upstairs to see the boss, thinking I'm in

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Speaker 3: trouble for something and then get told by the way,

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Speaker 3: you've been pardoned by releasing you right now. If you

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Speaker 3: go getting that car, you're gone. So it was all

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Speaker 3: just such a rush.

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Speaker 2: Did you think for a second like someone's taking the

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Speaker 2: Pierce here?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, for sure, because I think I delayed in

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Speaker 3: actually answering him, and then I actually swore at the

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Speaker 3: poor man, I'm pretty sure, pretty much saying you've got

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Speaker 3: to be kidney, I said, because it was all just

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Speaker 3: a bit too starden, a bit too yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure when he asked Jacey about it, she'll

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Speaker 3: be able to tell you the horrendous story she had,

279
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Speaker 3: because it was also she wasn't told. No one was

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Speaker 3: told in the band, so not even my legal team

281
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Speaker 3: was told.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, just get in the car.

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Speaker 3: Everyone was literally literally in the car, you know, I said,

284
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Speaker 3: So to being borrowed clothes that weren't even mine, and

285
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Speaker 3: a beautiful outfit that had been chosen didn't get to

286
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Speaker 3: be worn, and you know, and all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 4: I said.

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Speaker 3: It was all very you know, shots of me getting

289
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Speaker 3: out of a vand holding a pair of shoes that

290
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Speaker 3: I probably should have had on my feet, but weren't

291
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Speaker 3: even thinking about it, Yeah, and later going why am

292
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Speaker 3: I hanging on to my shoes? You know, it's all,

293
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Speaker 3: it was all just very very fast.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'd love to get an understanding from you about

295
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Speaker 1: what jail life was actually like for you, because I

296
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Speaker 1: think the thing that strikes me the most, I mean

297
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Speaker 1: the trauma they've experience going into prison. Aside, you're still

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Speaker 1: a very young woman when you go to prison, and

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Speaker 1: you still haven't really grown into the person that you're

300
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Speaker 1: going to be yet. You still have a lot of

301
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Speaker 1: life experience to be had in order to become who

302
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Speaker 1: you're going to become.

303
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Speaker 2: And then you go into a prison.

304
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Speaker 1: System where people who were accused of crimes like you

305
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Speaker 1: had been are considered amongst the worst of the worst, right,

306
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Speaker 1: so they have to put you in solitary confinement. So

307
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Speaker 1: how do you even grow as a human being when

308
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Speaker 1: you're still that young, with so much growing to do,

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Speaker 1: when there's no one around you to grow with.

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Speaker 4: That's a very good question.

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Speaker 3: I sort of think growing occurred, but because of the

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Speaker 3: situation and environment that I'm in, I would say it

313
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Speaker 3: was you know, the only thing it really did was

314
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Speaker 3: cement my strength cement, the stoism, cement, the stubbornness, you know,

315
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Speaker 3: and cement. You know, the word resilience has been used

316
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Speaker 3: in all those sorts of words, So that sort of environment, Yes,

317
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Speaker 3: it helps cement and strengthen those sort of qualities. Whether

318
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Speaker 3: I would have gone and had or those had not

319
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Speaker 3: not been in prison, who can say. I've always been

320
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Speaker 3: a bit stubborn and had a bit of a strength

321
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Speaker 3: thing about me, I said, But I don't think it

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Speaker 3: would have developed into such the giant shoulders a major

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Speaker 3: backbone that I ended up with. I said, it would

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Speaker 3: have been a more sedate version.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure.

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Speaker 3: I always say to people, Okay, I was, you know,

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Speaker 3: thirty four thirty five when I'm in in so there

328
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Speaker 3: was a life hate before that, and I tended to

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Speaker 3: always hang on to that and say, Okay, it's not

330
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Speaker 3: a case of going in at eighteen and having no

331
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Speaker 3: life whatsoever and not even knowing what to do or why.

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Speaker 3: At thirty five, you know, my basic life, school's personality

333
00:16:05,592 --> 00:16:07,272
Speaker 3: was set the whole and all that sort of stuff.

334
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Speaker 4: I said.

335
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Speaker 3: So I used to always go back and keep saying

336
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Speaker 3: to people, hang in a minute, I was a fully

337
00:16:12,112 --> 00:16:14,512
Speaker 3: grown adult by the time I come in here, and

338
00:16:15,392 --> 00:16:20,592
Speaker 3: I had to try to keep standard values and things

339
00:16:20,592 --> 00:16:23,312
Speaker 3: that the core of myself. I had to keep strong

340
00:16:24,472 --> 00:16:27,032
Speaker 3: and remind myself to try and stay true to that

341
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Speaker 3: core of who I thought I was as much as possible.

342
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Speaker 3: It can be made tough and very hard to do

343
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Speaker 3: so when you're in an environment like that, and I

344
00:16:34,952 --> 00:16:37,432
Speaker 3: had many a time where I slid behavior wise and

345
00:16:37,552 --> 00:16:40,912
Speaker 3: was just the basic naughty girl. You know, I said so,

346
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Speaker 3: but it was all in defense of trying to survive,

347
00:16:45,872 --> 00:16:48,992
Speaker 3: and kept telling myself, you know, even if all the

348
00:16:49,072 --> 00:16:51,832
Speaker 3: legal stuff doesn't work twenty twenty eight, I'm out with

349
00:16:52,032 --> 00:16:53,592
Speaker 3: these people, like it or not, so I have to

350
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Speaker 3: suck it up and do what I need to do.

351
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Speaker 4: So that's how I dealt with it.

352
00:16:58,672 --> 00:17:02,352
Speaker 3: But everyone's an individual and everyone deals with things way differently.

353
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Speaker 3: I've had a lot of women say to me, you know,

354
00:17:04,432 --> 00:17:06,472
Speaker 3: if I had lost one, I would have fallen apart.

355
00:17:06,512 --> 00:17:08,672
Speaker 3: You've lost four and you've been in prison for how

356
00:17:08,672 --> 00:17:12,272
Speaker 3: have you coped? My answer to that is, I believe

357
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Speaker 3: that everybody has a strength in there, and when they're

358
00:17:14,311 --> 00:17:17,311
Speaker 3: forced to find it, it's there. Some people have struggle

359
00:17:17,431 --> 00:17:20,951
Speaker 3: and don't find it others find it. Some people you

360
00:17:20,952 --> 00:17:24,991
Speaker 3: know who can do it reasonably easily, others can't, and

361
00:17:25,032 --> 00:17:26,192
Speaker 3: others really fight. Well.

362
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Speaker 4: I didn't.

363
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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that I did it easily, but I

364
00:17:30,952 --> 00:17:33,031
Speaker 3: just think it could have something to do with, you know,

365
00:17:33,311 --> 00:17:35,271
Speaker 3: the beginnings of my life and how tough the beginning

366
00:17:35,311 --> 00:17:37,272
Speaker 3: of my life was. I sort of already had a

367
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Speaker 3: bit of a backbone, and that helped me cope and

368
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Speaker 3: survive with what I had to go through for those

369
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Speaker 3: twenty years.

370
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Speaker 1: That's the thing is, I don't think a lot of

371
00:17:43,911 --> 00:17:46,752
Speaker 1: people realize that your story starts so much earlier than

372
00:17:47,111 --> 00:17:50,751
Speaker 1: the birth of your first child, because you do, you know,

373
00:17:51,032 --> 00:17:55,992
Speaker 1: find out somewhat older child that your mother is actually

374
00:17:56,552 --> 00:18:00,191
Speaker 1: was murdered by your father, and you're then handed off

375
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Speaker 1: to relatives and then make you wards of the stage

376
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Speaker 1: and you've had to sort of fight pretty much tooth

377
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Speaker 1: and now from the very beginning of your life. Do

378
00:18:08,752 --> 00:18:13,032
Speaker 1: you think that that might have added to that resilience?

379
00:18:13,071 --> 00:18:13,272
Speaker 2: Does?

380
00:18:13,552 --> 00:18:15,191
Speaker 1: Because I mean that would have broken a lot of

381
00:18:15,232 --> 00:18:18,311
Speaker 1: people emotionally, if not psychologically.

382
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Speaker 4: I have a firm believer for me that it did.

383
00:18:21,552 --> 00:18:24,391
Speaker 3: You know, whether you know, I've heard third hand stories

384
00:18:24,391 --> 00:18:26,512
Speaker 3: of me at eighteen months old or two years old,

385
00:18:27,792 --> 00:18:29,951
Speaker 3: being quite independent and just deciding I'm going to do

386
00:18:29,992 --> 00:18:33,752
Speaker 3: this or do that, and even at three or four,

387
00:18:34,952 --> 00:18:37,631
Speaker 3: not tolerating bullies or people who are picking on other people.

388
00:18:37,752 --> 00:18:42,391
Speaker 3: I said, So it was already there and developed, you know,

389
00:18:43,111 --> 00:18:47,191
Speaker 3: and sort of semi stayed that way, but developed and

390
00:18:47,272 --> 00:18:50,831
Speaker 3: evolved being in a tough situation, in a tough environment

391
00:18:50,952 --> 00:18:52,871
Speaker 3: like prison. A lot of my friends that I've met

392
00:18:52,871 --> 00:18:55,512
Speaker 3: along the way, a couple of them I met because

393
00:18:55,552 --> 00:18:58,351
Speaker 3: I was actually in defense of them against somebody else,

394
00:18:58,671 --> 00:19:00,432
Speaker 3: you know, I sort of said, and that's how we've connected,

395
00:19:00,431 --> 00:19:03,871
Speaker 3: and that's how we've met. And you know, I've got

396
00:19:03,952 --> 00:19:06,552
Speaker 3: a friend of mine who's over six foot two, and

397
00:19:06,631 --> 00:19:08,591
Speaker 3: she was being bullied in high school and I didn't

398
00:19:08,591 --> 00:19:12,272
Speaker 3: have a bar of that. So we connected, you know,

399
00:19:12,351 --> 00:19:14,631
Speaker 3: So I said, which was quite ironic, that I'm just

400
00:19:14,631 --> 00:19:17,591
Speaker 3: this little five foot five, you know, telling people rack. Oh,

401
00:19:17,671 --> 00:19:18,911
Speaker 3: you know, you know, so I think I pick on

402
00:19:18,952 --> 00:19:19,432
Speaker 3: someone else.

403
00:19:19,472 --> 00:19:19,631
Speaker 4: You know.

404
00:19:20,071 --> 00:19:22,551
Speaker 3: So it was already there, and I already had it

405
00:19:22,591 --> 00:19:24,911
Speaker 3: as a backbone, you know, third hand stories of me

406
00:19:24,952 --> 00:19:27,111
Speaker 3: at eighty months I was wandering around because you know,

407
00:19:28,032 --> 00:19:31,391
Speaker 3: my mother, for all intents and purposes. I didn't, you know,

408
00:19:31,472 --> 00:19:33,311
Speaker 3: I can honestly sit here and say I don't remember,

409
00:19:33,351 --> 00:19:34,991
Speaker 3: I don't recall. I couldn't tell you what you look like.

410
00:19:35,032 --> 00:19:37,231
Speaker 3: I've got a picture that I've seen. Don't really know

411
00:19:37,311 --> 00:19:39,871
Speaker 3: much or anything about her. I have heard that she

412
00:19:39,992 --> 00:19:42,591
Speaker 3: was very free spirited and just did you know, as

413
00:19:42,631 --> 00:19:45,752
Speaker 3: she pleased, and that she was kind hearted and whatever else.

414
00:19:45,792 --> 00:19:48,311
Speaker 3: But unfortunately for me, by the time she had me,

415
00:19:48,391 --> 00:19:49,792
Speaker 3: she had developed a bit of a drinking and a

416
00:19:49,831 --> 00:19:52,112
Speaker 3: gambling problem, so not the same human being at all.

417
00:19:52,631 --> 00:19:55,472
Speaker 3: And third hand stories of me just wandering around pretty

418
00:19:55,552 --> 00:19:57,472
Speaker 3: much taking care of myself and a singer and happy

419
00:19:57,472 --> 00:19:59,711
Speaker 3: at eighty months old, what does that say? You know

420
00:19:59,792 --> 00:20:03,552
Speaker 3: something I'd already started to, you know, try to do

421
00:20:03,631 --> 00:20:06,512
Speaker 3: the best I could, even at that age. Said so, yeah,

422
00:20:06,512 --> 00:20:08,351
Speaker 3: I think it's sort of I think what happens to

423
00:20:08,391 --> 00:20:10,952
Speaker 3: you in your life, trauma wise or whatever, it canmulds

424
00:20:10,952 --> 00:20:11,632
Speaker 3: you into who you are.

425
00:20:12,232 --> 00:20:14,831
Speaker 4: And I guess it depends on how much you know.

426
00:20:14,871 --> 00:20:15,432
Speaker 4: I've been lucky.

427
00:20:15,472 --> 00:20:18,071
Speaker 3: I've had quite a bit of mental health help for

428
00:20:18,192 --> 00:20:20,991
Speaker 3: coping and especially whilst I was inside, and now that

429
00:20:21,032 --> 00:20:23,711
Speaker 3: I'm out, you know, it'll be an eternal thing. Some

430
00:20:23,752 --> 00:20:26,352
Speaker 3: people don't get that to be able to help them,

431
00:20:26,871 --> 00:20:29,432
Speaker 3: you know, I said, so, they may suffer far more

432
00:20:29,472 --> 00:20:32,631
Speaker 3: than what I'm suffering. But I'm also very I am

433
00:20:32,671 --> 00:20:37,391
Speaker 3: mindful of, you know the fact that my situation and

434
00:20:37,431 --> 00:20:39,991
Speaker 3: all the people who helped me with it, especially my

435
00:20:40,071 --> 00:20:42,911
Speaker 3: close friends and stuff, they suffered mentally.

436
00:20:42,552 --> 00:20:44,472
Speaker 4: And you know, and all that along the way as well.

437
00:20:44,591 --> 00:20:46,391
Speaker 3: You know, I said, So, there was, as I said,

438
00:20:46,591 --> 00:20:49,032
Speaker 3: there was a ripple effect to you know, if you

439
00:20:49,032 --> 00:20:50,912
Speaker 3: want to stand beside me or help me out, there

440
00:20:50,911 --> 00:20:53,071
Speaker 3: was a ripple effect that you could be affected by it.

441
00:20:53,512 --> 00:20:56,431
Speaker 3: And as upsetting as that was to me, you know,

442
00:20:56,552 --> 00:20:59,032
Speaker 3: at the time I was dealing with trying to cope

443
00:20:59,151 --> 00:21:02,631
Speaker 3: and mentally sustain myself as well, I said so, But yeah,

444
00:21:02,671 --> 00:21:04,871
Speaker 3: I think you know, whatever your core person is, that's

445
00:21:04,911 --> 00:21:05,591
Speaker 3: that's who you are.

446
00:21:07,071 --> 00:21:10,071
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

447
00:21:10,232 --> 00:21:13,551
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Kathleen Folbig, who spent twenty years in

448
00:21:13,591 --> 00:21:16,871
Speaker 1: prison after being wrongfully convicted of killing her four infant

449
00:21:16,992 --> 00:21:20,792
Speaker 1: children before her release in twenty twenty three. Up next,

450
00:21:21,032 --> 00:21:23,751
Speaker 1: I ask Kathleen what it's like to talk about her

451
00:21:23,831 --> 00:21:27,071
Speaker 1: children after everything she's been through and what led her

452
00:21:27,111 --> 00:21:38,032
Speaker 1: to keep choosing motherhood even after such heartbreaking loss. Kathleen,

453
00:21:38,391 --> 00:21:42,111
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here thinking as you're telling me these stories

454
00:21:42,111 --> 00:21:45,671
Speaker 1: of how resilient you are, about the moment that arrives

455
00:21:45,671 --> 00:21:48,591
Speaker 1: in this conversation where we have to talk about the

456
00:21:48,671 --> 00:21:53,431
Speaker 1: deaths of your children. It's a really awful thing to

457
00:21:53,472 --> 00:21:54,311
Speaker 1: talk about.

458
00:21:54,431 --> 00:21:54,711
Speaker 2: It is.

459
00:21:56,111 --> 00:22:00,031
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a kid, I now can like

460
00:22:00,712 --> 00:22:04,392
Speaker 1: when your story broke, I wasn't a mum, so I

461
00:22:04,431 --> 00:22:06,232
Speaker 1: looked at your story very differently than the way I

462
00:22:06,391 --> 00:22:09,231
Speaker 1: do now now that I do have a child, and

463
00:22:09,311 --> 00:22:13,552
Speaker 1: it changes you. Having a baby physically fundamentally changes who

464
00:22:13,552 --> 00:22:13,872
Speaker 1: you are.

465
00:22:13,952 --> 00:22:17,352
Speaker 2: You become a mom, it's a second life for you.

466
00:22:18,472 --> 00:22:21,911
Speaker 1: And so talking to another mum about the death of

467
00:22:21,911 --> 00:22:26,992
Speaker 1: her babies it is such a tricky thing to bring up.

468
00:22:28,032 --> 00:22:31,311
Speaker 1: I want to know how you feel about talking about

469
00:22:31,351 --> 00:22:35,151
Speaker 1: your children when they have been such a focus of

470
00:22:35,192 --> 00:22:38,911
Speaker 1: your entire existence, from becoming a mum where they do

471
00:22:39,032 --> 00:22:42,472
Speaker 1: become your entire existence, to everything that then you've gone

472
00:22:42,472 --> 00:22:45,111
Speaker 1: through in losing them one after the other and having

473
00:22:45,151 --> 00:22:50,471
Speaker 1: to recover from the trauma of those in still still

474
00:22:50,512 --> 00:22:53,871
Speaker 1: wanting to become a mum. And becoming pregnant again, and

475
00:22:54,032 --> 00:22:56,311
Speaker 1: being able to process that into a place where you

476
00:22:56,351 --> 00:22:58,512
Speaker 1: can be okay with being pregnant and having another baby

477
00:22:58,552 --> 00:23:03,792
Speaker 1: and not pass away from anxiety yourself. How do you

478
00:23:03,831 --> 00:23:06,631
Speaker 1: feel about talking about your babies with people like we

479
00:23:06,712 --> 00:23:09,631
Speaker 1: are strangers, and yet this is a conversation you're going

480
00:23:09,671 --> 00:23:13,391
Speaker 1: to keep having with people until, you know, maybe forever.

481
00:23:14,192 --> 00:23:17,752
Speaker 3: I had to accept the fact that that's who I'm

482
00:23:17,752 --> 00:23:20,432
Speaker 3: known as. You know, I'm known as the poor woman

483
00:23:20,431 --> 00:23:22,232
Speaker 3: the lost four children, went to prison for it, that

484
00:23:22,272 --> 00:23:23,831
Speaker 3: managed to win the case and then get back out.

485
00:23:23,952 --> 00:23:26,031
Speaker 3: That's who I'm known as.

486
00:23:26,472 --> 00:23:27,792
Speaker 2: That's the long story short.

487
00:23:27,871 --> 00:23:33,472
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, discussing and talking about my children. I used

488
00:23:33,472 --> 00:23:37,032
Speaker 3: to be quite coveted of memories and tended not to

489
00:23:37,071 --> 00:23:41,631
Speaker 3: share because for me, I don't have the big banking

490
00:23:41,911 --> 00:23:44,471
Speaker 3: vault of memories in regards to them, I have a

491
00:23:44,512 --> 00:23:51,752
Speaker 3: select few. The trauma of losing them for me, it's

492
00:23:51,792 --> 00:23:55,791
Speaker 3: hard to describe, because I sometimes still use it if

493
00:23:55,831 --> 00:23:58,272
Speaker 3: I'm in a traumatic situation that I don't think I'm

494
00:23:58,272 --> 00:24:01,912
Speaker 3: handling very well. I have what they call it. It's

495
00:24:01,952 --> 00:24:04,871
Speaker 3: almost like a deflective shield that sort of just comes up,

496
00:24:05,311 --> 00:24:07,911
Speaker 3: almost like I stepped beside myself, and I just don't

497
00:24:07,992 --> 00:24:12,671
Speaker 3: tend to. I may be answering you, but but it's

498
00:24:12,792 --> 00:24:15,351
Speaker 3: very monotone. I can go a little monotone and not

499
00:24:16,752 --> 00:24:20,111
Speaker 3: because it blocks me from feeling too much. As such,

500
00:24:21,671 --> 00:24:25,552
Speaker 3: I try not to do that these days, because as

501
00:24:25,591 --> 00:24:29,311
Speaker 3: far as I'm concerned, you know, for everything that I

502
00:24:29,351 --> 00:24:34,432
Speaker 3: went through, my children existed, and I would never ever

503
00:24:34,591 --> 00:24:37,392
Speaker 3: deny that they did, you know, I said, so, it's

504
00:24:37,712 --> 00:24:40,591
Speaker 3: a it's a rough edged knife edge that I sort

505
00:24:40,591 --> 00:24:43,032
Speaker 3: of run on when I'm when I'm talking about the kids.

506
00:24:43,431 --> 00:24:45,392
Speaker 4: It's the decision to keep having them.

507
00:24:45,472 --> 00:24:48,912
Speaker 3: You know that There were times when you know, I

508
00:24:48,952 --> 00:24:51,751
Speaker 3: decided no, I was going to go after Sarah. When

509
00:24:51,752 --> 00:24:54,071
Speaker 3: I lost my third one, you know, I went in

510
00:24:54,071 --> 00:24:56,672
Speaker 3: and discussed having my tubes type because I just wasn't

511
00:24:56,712 --> 00:24:59,311
Speaker 3: even going to go there. But considering I wasn't, you know,

512
00:24:59,591 --> 00:25:01,992
Speaker 3: either thirty or something quite yet or any just over,

513
00:25:02,591 --> 00:25:04,951
Speaker 3: doctor said to me, we can't, You're too young, you know,

514
00:25:04,992 --> 00:25:07,311
Speaker 3: And I got denied. You know, I've pretty much to

515
00:25:07,311 --> 00:25:09,871
Speaker 3: do it because they were concerned I was doing it

516
00:25:09,911 --> 00:25:13,311
Speaker 3: for an emotional reason, not a you know, and that

517
00:25:13,431 --> 00:25:15,152
Speaker 3: made no sense to me because I'm sitting there saying

518
00:25:15,192 --> 00:25:17,431
Speaker 3: to the doctor, how am I supposed to differentiate from

519
00:25:17,472 --> 00:25:19,792
Speaker 3: an emotional reason as to why I don't, you know

520
00:25:20,111 --> 00:25:22,792
Speaker 3: sort of thing. But you know, there was a few

521
00:25:22,831 --> 00:25:26,032
Speaker 3: years that went between Sarah and then deciding to go

522
00:25:26,111 --> 00:25:30,391
Speaker 3: with Laura. But you know, the stress mass stress of

523
00:25:30,472 --> 00:25:34,792
Speaker 3: worrying constantly and ended up being quite paranoid when the game.

524
00:25:34,792 --> 00:25:37,831
Speaker 3: But when Laura came around, I wouldn't wish that on anyone,

525
00:25:37,952 --> 00:25:39,911
Speaker 3: I said, because it was you know, I'm not going

526
00:25:39,952 --> 00:25:41,951
Speaker 3: to say it was a terrible decision, because it wasn't.

527
00:25:42,032 --> 00:25:42,191
Speaker 1: You know.

528
00:25:42,591 --> 00:25:43,232
Speaker 4: I met Laura.

529
00:25:43,272 --> 00:25:45,671
Speaker 3: She was beautiful and wonderful and enjoy in my life,

530
00:25:46,631 --> 00:25:49,191
Speaker 3: So it wasn't a bad decision as far as I

531
00:25:49,232 --> 00:25:51,752
Speaker 3: was concerned in the end. But yeah, to make the decision,

532
00:25:51,792 --> 00:25:55,311
Speaker 3: that was quite a racking process to go through. And

533
00:25:55,351 --> 00:25:57,151
Speaker 3: of course, you know, I had a husband at the

534
00:25:57,232 --> 00:26:00,911
Speaker 3: time to be considering, and you know, when you go

535
00:26:00,992 --> 00:26:04,351
Speaker 3: down these roads. I think what I sort of lacked

536
00:26:04,351 --> 00:26:08,911
Speaker 3: in in my relationship is Craig was conversation. We rarely

537
00:26:08,952 --> 00:26:12,631
Speaker 3: ever actually really truly spoke about stuff, and I think

538
00:26:12,671 --> 00:26:15,831
Speaker 3: that's vitally important. You really need to communicate. So for

539
00:26:15,871 --> 00:26:18,871
Speaker 3: anyone else that was going through something like mine, who's

540
00:26:18,911 --> 00:26:21,071
Speaker 3: having a trying to decide whether they're going to have

541
00:26:21,151 --> 00:26:24,351
Speaker 3: another child or not. I would always be saying, well,

542
00:26:24,351 --> 00:26:27,071
Speaker 3: make sure you have those conversations and you make them deep,

543
00:26:27,151 --> 00:26:29,871
Speaker 3: you take them mean, and you make them last, and

544
00:26:30,272 --> 00:26:32,992
Speaker 3: you really make sure you know so thing, because I

545
00:26:33,311 --> 00:26:35,672
Speaker 3: you know, I have said to friends in the past

546
00:26:35,871 --> 00:26:40,792
Speaker 3: sometimes that you know, if Caleb, my very first one,

547
00:26:40,831 --> 00:26:43,911
Speaker 3: had survived, I may not have had the other threat.

548
00:26:44,151 --> 00:26:45,951
Speaker 3: I might have just been quite happy enough to have

549
00:26:45,992 --> 00:26:50,351
Speaker 3: been a single parent, single child, household. But that's not

550
00:26:50,431 --> 00:26:52,232
Speaker 3: how fate, not path and not not.

551
00:26:52,151 --> 00:26:52,672
Speaker 4: Where we went.

552
00:26:53,752 --> 00:26:57,071
Speaker 3: So yeah, but trauma for me is like, you know,

553
00:26:57,232 --> 00:27:00,111
Speaker 3: everyone always says, you've suffered so much trauma, why are

554
00:27:00,111 --> 00:27:01,192
Speaker 3: you're even still standing?

555
00:27:01,272 --> 00:27:02,992
Speaker 4: Why you're not rocking in a corner somewhere.

556
00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:07,111
Speaker 3: And my answer to that is because I guess everyone's

557
00:27:07,192 --> 00:27:10,192
Speaker 3: individual on how they process these things. You know, I said,

558
00:27:10,232 --> 00:27:14,392
Speaker 3: so everybody says you've never had the chance to grieve,

559
00:27:14,631 --> 00:27:16,871
Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, technically that's wrong. You know, I

560
00:27:17,111 --> 00:27:19,831
Speaker 3: did actually go to all four funerals, and you go

561
00:27:19,952 --> 00:27:22,351
Speaker 3: through the grieving process. By the time you're getting around

562
00:27:22,351 --> 00:27:24,991
Speaker 3: to a funeral, you know you've got the weeks and

563
00:27:25,032 --> 00:27:28,552
Speaker 3: weeks after a funeral, that is, you know, that are

564
00:27:28,911 --> 00:27:31,391
Speaker 3: the most depressing parts of your life that you're ever

565
00:27:31,431 --> 00:27:36,591
Speaker 3: going to come across. But eventually everyone around you, you know.

566
00:27:37,032 --> 00:27:37,552
Speaker 4: Moves on.

567
00:27:37,792 --> 00:27:40,991
Speaker 3: I said, you can't keep, you know, staying in that

568
00:27:41,071 --> 00:27:43,911
Speaker 3: grief mode. It's not healthy. You've got to try and

569
00:27:43,952 --> 00:27:45,992
Speaker 3: attempt to get on with your life in some fashion

570
00:27:46,032 --> 00:27:47,711
Speaker 3: and decide which direction you want to take it in.

571
00:27:48,351 --> 00:27:50,952
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what I did. I kept moving forward.

572
00:27:51,311 --> 00:27:54,271
Speaker 3: Others didn't, you know. I don't think my ex husband

573
00:27:54,272 --> 00:27:57,591
Speaker 3: moved forward. I think he was always blagging behind a little.

574
00:27:57,911 --> 00:28:00,552
Speaker 3: And I think in the end, I just moved forward

575
00:28:00,591 --> 00:28:02,871
Speaker 3: a bit too far, and you know, we ended up

576
00:28:02,871 --> 00:28:07,071
Speaker 3: separating them. Yeah, so I still do that now. Moving

577
00:28:07,111 --> 00:28:10,391
Speaker 3: forward is my sole focus. There's no dwelling on past

578
00:28:10,431 --> 00:28:13,752
Speaker 3: too much. There's no lamenting it, there's no you can't

579
00:28:13,871 --> 00:28:17,911
Speaker 3: change the past. I try really hard not to have

580
00:28:17,992 --> 00:28:21,311
Speaker 3: any negativity or toxic thoughts about the past, you know,

581
00:28:22,512 --> 00:28:26,032
Speaker 3: and or people that have offended or heard or betrayed

582
00:28:26,311 --> 00:28:28,712
Speaker 3: or done whatever. I try very hard to just sort

583
00:28:28,712 --> 00:28:31,552
Speaker 3: of go, okay, well, those decisions have you made, that's

584
00:28:31,552 --> 00:28:33,512
Speaker 3: the path they've chosen. And there's just the path I'm

585
00:28:33,552 --> 00:28:36,952
Speaker 3: taking and you just have to go forward from there.

586
00:28:37,831 --> 00:28:42,352
Speaker 1: Does that extend that sort of moving forward and not

587
00:28:43,472 --> 00:28:48,272
Speaker 1: worrying too much about the past is extended to police

588
00:28:48,472 --> 00:28:51,312
Speaker 1: and how investigators handled your case.

589
00:28:51,392 --> 00:28:54,512
Speaker 3: Because don't get me wrong, when I get police pulling

590
00:28:54,552 --> 00:28:55,832
Speaker 3: up next to us in the car, I can be

591
00:28:55,872 --> 00:28:56,632
Speaker 3: a tad nervous.

592
00:28:56,992 --> 00:28:58,951
Speaker 1: Really, I mean that happens to all of us, but

593
00:28:59,072 --> 00:29:00,392
Speaker 1: to you especially, Yes.

594
00:29:00,632 --> 00:29:03,032
Speaker 4: As an automatic thing. You know, there's a bit of

595
00:29:03,072 --> 00:29:03,671
Speaker 4: a funny story.

596
00:29:03,712 --> 00:29:05,312
Speaker 3: When I first got my license and I had to

597
00:29:05,352 --> 00:29:08,832
Speaker 3: be pulled over my very first breath test. The window

598
00:29:08,911 --> 00:29:11,112
Speaker 3: came down. I was so nervous that I think I

599
00:29:11,192 --> 00:29:13,632
Speaker 3: was fumbling and stuttering a little. So he probably thought

600
00:29:14,152 --> 00:29:17,392
Speaker 3: something wrong with his lady because she's not reacting, you know,

601
00:29:17,952 --> 00:29:19,752
Speaker 3: you know. And I had to find my license and give

602
00:29:19,792 --> 00:29:22,431
Speaker 3: it to him. And once I've given it to him,

603
00:29:22,911 --> 00:29:25,752
Speaker 3: he's looked at it, and I think he's then looked

604
00:29:25,752 --> 00:29:28,712
Speaker 3: at me, and then he's just gone, thanks very much,

605
00:29:28,712 --> 00:29:29,392
Speaker 3: here you can go.

606
00:29:29,632 --> 00:29:29,792
Speaker 2: Ah.

607
00:29:30,352 --> 00:29:32,752
Speaker 4: So I don't know, don't know to this day.

608
00:29:32,671 --> 00:29:35,152
Speaker 2: Whether for me might have worked in your favor in

609
00:29:35,152 --> 00:29:35,992
Speaker 2: that moment.

610
00:29:36,592 --> 00:29:40,072
Speaker 3: I don't know whether we recognize the picture and just went, oh, geez,

611
00:29:40,112 --> 00:29:42,352
Speaker 3: you know, just let this one go, or whether it's

612
00:29:42,592 --> 00:29:45,231
Speaker 3: you know, he was just being kind, or whether it

613
00:29:45,272 --> 00:29:47,432
Speaker 3: was you know, I blew with the thing and blew

614
00:29:47,472 --> 00:29:49,112
Speaker 3: nothing I said, So it was all a case of

615
00:29:49,152 --> 00:29:52,832
Speaker 3: you know, standard thing. But yeah, it's you know, I

616
00:29:52,872 --> 00:29:55,312
Speaker 3: don't think it's necessary police for me that I might

617
00:29:55,312 --> 00:29:57,112
Speaker 3: have a bit of a negative reaction to. But if

618
00:29:57,112 --> 00:29:59,032
Speaker 3: you start talking to me about detectives and some of

619
00:29:59,032 --> 00:30:00,592
Speaker 3: their tactics will, then that's different.

620
00:30:00,952 --> 00:30:05,272
Speaker 1: When I read into how, especially how they confronted your

621
00:30:05,272 --> 00:30:10,552
Speaker 1: ex husband, they really when you look at the conversations

622
00:30:10,592 --> 00:30:14,632
Speaker 1: that were had, it feels very leading, like they led

623
00:30:14,712 --> 00:30:17,991
Speaker 1: him into making a decision, and then that sort of

624
00:30:18,032 --> 00:30:21,431
Speaker 1: tarnishes your relationship with him from that point on because

625
00:30:21,512 --> 00:30:23,671
Speaker 1: he spends the rest of his time believing that you

626
00:30:23,712 --> 00:30:26,352
Speaker 1: are guilty and that there is no way that it

627
00:30:26,392 --> 00:30:30,472
Speaker 1: could possibly be otherwise. And the way that they've treated

628
00:30:30,512 --> 00:30:34,272
Speaker 1: you in that process too is I mean, on reflection,

629
00:30:35,112 --> 00:30:36,671
Speaker 1: there are a lot of decisions that were made that,

630
00:30:37,752 --> 00:30:39,632
Speaker 1: you know, the conversations that we had with you a

631
00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:42,072
Speaker 1: grieving young mother should not have happened in the way

632
00:30:42,072 --> 00:30:44,552
Speaker 1: that they did. So how do you how do you

633
00:30:44,592 --> 00:30:47,792
Speaker 1: feel about those detectives and the way they handled your case.

634
00:30:48,911 --> 00:30:55,072
Speaker 3: I it's a hard call, because you know, as far

635
00:30:55,072 --> 00:30:57,952
Speaker 3: as I'm concerned, police and detectives are needed in our society.

636
00:30:57,992 --> 00:30:58,952
Speaker 4: We can't do without them.

637
00:30:59,352 --> 00:31:02,152
Speaker 3: But of course, in any major organizations, I'm sure you

638
00:31:02,232 --> 00:31:04,191
Speaker 3: have good, bad, and average, you know, I said, So

639
00:31:04,752 --> 00:31:09,352
Speaker 3: it's just how it rolls. Yes, some of the tactics

640
00:31:09,352 --> 00:31:12,112
Speaker 3: and things that we used to make sure that a

641
00:31:12,192 --> 00:31:15,112
Speaker 3: case was built for me. You know, I sit here

642
00:31:15,152 --> 00:31:18,471
Speaker 3: now and go, okay, you take it right back to

643
00:31:18,832 --> 00:31:22,432
Speaker 3: even when he was first you know, he first approached

644
00:31:22,431 --> 00:31:25,552
Speaker 3: the DPP about my matter and was pretty much told

645
00:31:25,872 --> 00:31:27,951
Speaker 3: you're going to need more. There's not enough here, you know,

646
00:31:27,992 --> 00:31:31,072
Speaker 3: I said, So he on his own from what we

647
00:31:31,152 --> 00:31:33,271
Speaker 3: can gather, just kept going.

648
00:31:33,392 --> 00:31:33,752
Speaker 4: I said.

649
00:31:33,832 --> 00:31:35,832
Speaker 3: So it was sort of like, okay, you were just

650
00:31:35,872 --> 00:31:37,911
Speaker 3: told there's not enough here, but you still got after me.

651
00:31:37,911 --> 00:31:38,271
Speaker 4: Anyway.

652
00:31:38,392 --> 00:31:41,592
Speaker 3: That's that's where you know, I can sit and go

653
00:31:41,671 --> 00:31:43,752
Speaker 3: and shake my head and just sort of go. Would

654
00:31:43,752 --> 00:31:47,152
Speaker 3: that happened today, I'm not sure, you know. I hope

655
00:31:47,192 --> 00:31:50,832
Speaker 3: that hopefully some lessons were sort of learned here, especially

656
00:31:50,832 --> 00:31:54,272
Speaker 3: on how you treat grieving people. I said, because it's

657
00:31:54,272 --> 00:31:56,551
Speaker 3: sort of like to to want to speak to a

658
00:31:56,592 --> 00:32:01,152
Speaker 3: grieving person at a hospital straight up when their brain's

659
00:32:01,272 --> 00:32:06,711
Speaker 3: not even connected because they're growing traumatically through so much off.

660
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:09,911
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that's a good thing to do, I said,

661
00:32:09,911 --> 00:32:13,432
Speaker 3: because yeah, that you know, things are said or not said,

662
00:32:13,512 --> 00:32:16,312
Speaker 3: or inferences made and all sorts of things. But to

663
00:32:16,352 --> 00:32:18,752
Speaker 3: build a case on that, I do find that a

664
00:32:18,792 --> 00:32:21,231
Speaker 3: little on the offensive side. And it's just sort of like,

665
00:32:21,431 --> 00:32:23,552
Speaker 3: you know that, I hope your lesson don't do that again,

666
00:32:23,671 --> 00:32:25,352
Speaker 3: you know, I said, because it's you know, it's not

667
00:32:25,392 --> 00:32:27,951
Speaker 3: a good thing to do. I sort of keep telling

668
00:32:27,992 --> 00:32:31,952
Speaker 3: myself he had a job to do, and he certainly

669
00:32:32,032 --> 00:32:35,551
Speaker 3: went and did it. I said, So I can't, you know,

670
00:32:35,671 --> 00:32:37,672
Speaker 3: I can't really say that much more about it. I'm

671
00:32:37,671 --> 00:32:38,951
Speaker 3: not going to say I hate the man, because I

672
00:32:38,992 --> 00:32:40,592
Speaker 3: don't personally know him enough to say you hate him.

673
00:32:40,592 --> 00:32:41,791
Speaker 3: You don't hate someone that you don't know.

674
00:32:43,032 --> 00:32:45,152
Speaker 1: Next, Kathleen opens up about what it was like to

675
00:32:45,192 --> 00:32:48,832
Speaker 1: have her personal diaries turned into evidence against her in court.

676
00:32:52,232 --> 00:32:54,392
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the use of say, your

677
00:32:54,431 --> 00:32:55,032
Speaker 1: diaries is.

678
00:32:55,032 --> 00:32:59,072
Speaker 3: Evidence that, as far as I were concerned, was offensive

679
00:32:59,752 --> 00:33:01,032
Speaker 3: and to.

680
00:33:01,352 --> 00:33:03,671
Speaker 1: Have we've all written things in our diaries in the

681
00:33:03,712 --> 00:33:05,911
Speaker 1: moment that make no sense or that makes sense at

682
00:33:05,911 --> 00:33:08,352
Speaker 1: the time. I'm like, could be taken in any which

683
00:33:08,392 --> 00:33:10,392
Speaker 1: way depending on your mental health that day.

684
00:33:10,472 --> 00:33:14,432
Speaker 3: Right, Absolutely, And I don't know how many people, especially

685
00:33:14,512 --> 00:33:17,352
Speaker 3: women who's do you know, the majority? If you look

686
00:33:17,352 --> 00:33:19,952
Speaker 3: at percentages, it's usually women that write in these sorts

687
00:33:19,952 --> 00:33:23,951
Speaker 3: of things. So it's it's to me to use something

688
00:33:23,992 --> 00:33:26,711
Speaker 3: like that, and I only pluck out certain words and

689
00:33:26,752 --> 00:33:30,192
Speaker 3: then weaponize was to meet a disgusting thing to do,

690
00:33:30,552 --> 00:33:33,191
Speaker 3: and we all agreed on that. It didn't matter who

691
00:33:33,232 --> 00:33:37,152
Speaker 3: we spoke to or you know, but how you can

692
00:33:37,512 --> 00:33:40,032
Speaker 3: get that point across in a legal world is a

693
00:33:40,072 --> 00:33:42,431
Speaker 3: total different, you know sort of thing. You know. My

694
00:33:43,072 --> 00:33:47,792
Speaker 3: defense's team's tactic was to simply say, nothing to see here,

695
00:33:47,952 --> 00:33:49,992
Speaker 3: don't know why you're using them, nothing to see here.

696
00:33:50,072 --> 00:33:51,911
Speaker 3: Well that wasn't good enough, and I got done for

697
00:33:51,992 --> 00:33:54,911
Speaker 3: them anyway, And they were used in a specific way

698
00:33:55,152 --> 00:33:58,312
Speaker 3: to make sure that a case was bolstered and that

699
00:33:58,431 --> 00:34:00,832
Speaker 3: the case was pretty much built up around them. I said,

700
00:34:00,911 --> 00:34:04,352
Speaker 3: so for all intents and purposes, I didn't really have hope.

701
00:34:04,431 --> 00:34:07,671
Speaker 3: I've gone down, whether I loved it or not, because

702
00:34:07,992 --> 00:34:10,752
Speaker 3: the sign of the times, the fact that metal law

703
00:34:10,832 --> 00:34:13,672
Speaker 3: still existed and was threading through everything even way back then.

704
00:34:14,471 --> 00:34:15,392
Speaker 4: Didn't really have hope.

705
00:34:15,431 --> 00:34:17,991
Speaker 1: Actually, so you were really aware of that and you

706
00:34:18,072 --> 00:34:20,312
Speaker 1: knew that in that time when you were facing court.

707
00:34:20,392 --> 00:34:21,192
Speaker 2: Were you aware of that?

708
00:34:21,312 --> 00:34:21,352
Speaker 1: No?

709
00:34:21,872 --> 00:34:22,832
Speaker 4: Probably not. Back then.

710
00:34:23,312 --> 00:34:28,872
Speaker 3: I was always hopeful, you know, but I was fairly ignorant, naive,

711
00:34:29,551 --> 00:34:32,671
Speaker 3: and I kept thinking that the system would listen to

712
00:34:32,672 --> 00:34:34,232
Speaker 3: me at some point and get it right, you know,

713
00:34:34,272 --> 00:34:37,431
Speaker 3: I said, so to eventually find out and land in

714
00:34:37,431 --> 00:34:40,191
Speaker 3: your land in prison, blinking, going, Well, that didn't work.

715
00:34:40,232 --> 00:34:42,232
Speaker 4: I don't know what's going on there. But it's too

716
00:34:42,312 --> 00:34:44,192
Speaker 4: late by then, you know, I said, so you.

717
00:34:44,352 --> 00:34:47,031
Speaker 3: Precedents have been set, legal arguments have been done, you know,

718
00:34:47,072 --> 00:34:49,911
Speaker 3: I said, you start to become history when it comes

719
00:34:49,951 --> 00:34:52,632
Speaker 3: to you know, students looking up things and doing and all.

720
00:34:52,471 --> 00:34:53,232
Speaker 4: That sort of stuff.

721
00:34:53,592 --> 00:34:59,951
Speaker 3: So it's a tough It's literally a case of how

722
00:34:59,951 --> 00:35:03,551
Speaker 3: do you defend your random thoughts that come out of

723
00:35:03,551 --> 00:35:05,991
Speaker 3: your head that you were still enough to stick on

724
00:35:06,031 --> 00:35:08,711
Speaker 3: a bit of paper, and then someone goes and reads them.

725
00:35:09,072 --> 00:35:12,751
Speaker 3: And every individual has a different way of interpreshing something

726
00:35:12,832 --> 00:35:15,951
Speaker 3: they might read. You know, I said so, and I

727
00:35:15,991 --> 00:35:17,991
Speaker 3: can still do it now. Something might flash up on

728
00:35:18,031 --> 00:35:20,951
Speaker 3: the news and I'll read it and go oh, wow,

729
00:35:21,072 --> 00:35:23,312
Speaker 3: that means blah blah blah, And yet a partner can

730
00:35:23,352 --> 00:35:24,951
Speaker 3: be sitting next to me and go, oh, I didn't

731
00:35:24,991 --> 00:35:25,232
Speaker 3: read that.

732
00:35:25,392 --> 00:35:26,792
Speaker 4: I think that reads blah blah blah.

733
00:35:26,832 --> 00:35:29,111
Speaker 3: And I'm like it's a prime example, you know, yeah,

734
00:35:30,312 --> 00:35:32,792
Speaker 3: and you know, And sometimes I can still write stuff

735
00:35:32,792 --> 00:35:36,272
Speaker 3: even today, and someone will read it and then not

736
00:35:36,352 --> 00:35:38,112
Speaker 3: really understand what it's come from and take it in

737
00:35:38,112 --> 00:35:42,191
Speaker 3: a totally different way. So it's an eternal argument, really

738
00:35:42,991 --> 00:35:44,272
Speaker 3: eternal thing that just keeps going.

739
00:35:44,551 --> 00:35:47,752
Speaker 1: So you said, then, like your land in prison wide item,

740
00:35:47,792 --> 00:35:50,111
Speaker 1: blinking and wondering where the hell you ended up here?

741
00:35:51,392 --> 00:35:52,352
Speaker 2: Like I mentioned before, you had to.

742
00:35:52,352 --> 00:35:55,591
Speaker 1: Go into solitary confinement because people who are accused of

743
00:35:55,712 --> 00:35:59,952
Speaker 1: killing children are often targeted by other inmates. How because

744
00:35:59,951 --> 00:36:01,152
Speaker 1: that goes for a couple of years, But how do

745
00:36:01,192 --> 00:36:04,431
Speaker 1: you then transition into the general population, and how do

746
00:36:04,551 --> 00:36:07,752
Speaker 1: you protect yourself from being a target at that point?

747
00:36:08,072 --> 00:36:10,272
Speaker 1: Like I imagine you didn't have too many hand to

748
00:36:10,272 --> 00:36:13,472
Speaker 1: hand combat skills going into prison at that time, thirty

749
00:36:13,511 --> 00:36:16,032
Speaker 1: something year old woman, Like, how do you defend yourself?

750
00:36:16,672 --> 00:36:16,951
Speaker 3: For me?

751
00:36:17,112 --> 00:36:17,712
Speaker 4: Personally.

752
00:36:19,712 --> 00:36:24,272
Speaker 3: I basically it was almost like I put up the

753
00:36:24,312 --> 00:36:29,392
Speaker 3: shield of bravado, and because I knew in my heart

754
00:36:29,551 --> 00:36:31,312
Speaker 3: they all got it wrong and I wasn't supposed to

755
00:36:31,392 --> 00:36:35,431
Speaker 3: be there. It very quickly dawned on me, though, that

756
00:36:35,511 --> 00:36:37,991
Speaker 3: I couldn't keep saying that, because when you're in there

757
00:36:37,991 --> 00:36:39,752
Speaker 3: in a situation, and you're in a prison for what

758
00:36:39,752 --> 00:36:42,071
Speaker 3: you're in there for, like mine, it doesn't matter how

759
00:36:42,112 --> 00:36:43,552
Speaker 3: much you protest as far as the concerned.

760
00:36:43,551 --> 00:36:45,312
Speaker 4: The court struck you there. So you did it, I said,

761
00:36:45,431 --> 00:36:46,312
Speaker 4: So you don't.

762
00:36:46,352 --> 00:36:48,751
Speaker 3: It's no point, and you're jumping up and down saying

763
00:36:48,792 --> 00:36:50,951
Speaker 3: but I didn't, you know, blah blah blah. So I

764
00:36:51,031 --> 00:36:53,631
Speaker 3: learned to go quiet on that side of things. So

765
00:36:53,792 --> 00:36:55,832
Speaker 3: for me, it was more of a I think I

766
00:36:55,911 --> 00:36:59,031
Speaker 3: drew down on the backbone that I already sort of

767
00:36:59,192 --> 00:37:01,872
Speaker 3: seem you had. And there was a lot of bravado

768
00:37:02,112 --> 00:37:07,352
Speaker 3: pretty much going on, and the ability sometimes to talk

769
00:37:08,031 --> 00:37:10,951
Speaker 3: and eventually talk someone down if I thought that they

770
00:37:10,951 --> 00:37:13,631
Speaker 3: weren't actually seriously wanting to hurt me, that they just

771
00:37:13,712 --> 00:37:16,911
Speaker 3: were yelling at me and screaming and blustering and carrying on.

772
00:37:17,672 --> 00:37:19,551
Speaker 3: There was quite a percentage of times where I could

773
00:37:19,592 --> 00:37:22,432
Speaker 3: say some stuff that just made them stop and blink,

774
00:37:23,152 --> 00:37:25,591
Speaker 3: and they would go still swear at me, but they

775
00:37:25,592 --> 00:37:28,832
Speaker 3: would walk away just shaking heads instead of continuing to

776
00:37:28,872 --> 00:37:32,631
Speaker 3: abuse me. I also did the thing of you know,

777
00:37:32,832 --> 00:37:35,472
Speaker 3: past someone, they might be negative, being given you glory

778
00:37:35,511 --> 00:37:37,111
Speaker 3: eye every time they look at you. But I used

779
00:37:37,152 --> 00:37:40,272
Speaker 3: to walk past, going hey, go every time, and sooner

780
00:37:40,352 --> 00:37:41,872
Speaker 3: or later you catch them out and they go.

781
00:37:42,112 --> 00:37:44,032
Speaker 2: I killed them with kindness in the end.

782
00:37:45,152 --> 00:37:46,032
Speaker 4: You know, so things.

783
00:37:46,072 --> 00:37:50,552
Speaker 3: So it probably took i'd say within about five years

784
00:37:50,672 --> 00:37:53,951
Speaker 3: people that most of the women had realized she's here

785
00:37:53,991 --> 00:37:54,352
Speaker 3: to stay.

786
00:37:54,392 --> 00:37:55,352
Speaker 4: We can't get rid of up.

787
00:37:55,471 --> 00:37:58,152
Speaker 3: And the standard argument I was always saying was, you know,

788
00:37:58,232 --> 00:37:59,951
Speaker 3: you say I don't belong in here. Where would you

789
00:38:00,031 --> 00:38:02,711
Speaker 3: like us be to go? You provide me with you know,

790
00:38:03,431 --> 00:38:05,711
Speaker 3: this is where I am. We're all wearing the same

791
00:38:05,712 --> 00:38:08,392
Speaker 3: green tracks, we all bleed red blood if anything happens

792
00:38:08,431 --> 00:38:10,552
Speaker 3: to us. You know, I said that we're all female here.

793
00:38:11,031 --> 00:38:14,712
Speaker 3: So therefore, in that respect, no matter what anybody does,

794
00:38:14,712 --> 00:38:17,511
Speaker 3: we should be bedding together a little bit, not continuely

795
00:38:17,551 --> 00:38:20,071
Speaker 3: fighting and carrying it on with each other. So I

796
00:38:20,112 --> 00:38:22,591
Speaker 3: tried to use logic as much as possible when it

797
00:38:22,632 --> 00:38:25,672
Speaker 3: came to talking. But of course you get some women

798
00:38:25,672 --> 00:38:28,352
Speaker 3: in there who just stayed here logic the total illological.

799
00:38:28,792 --> 00:38:31,832
Speaker 3: So in that respect, I think it was literally a

800
00:38:31,872 --> 00:38:36,591
Speaker 3: case of defending myself by having so much Backbunder and

801
00:38:36,632 --> 00:38:40,031
Speaker 3: Bravado meant that they were a little unsure how I

802
00:38:40,031 --> 00:38:42,191
Speaker 3: would react if they took me on. I said, So

803
00:38:42,431 --> 00:38:45,071
Speaker 3: that gray area of whether I was going to fight

804
00:38:45,112 --> 00:38:47,392
Speaker 3: with them or not ninety percent of the time was

805
00:38:47,551 --> 00:38:49,951
Speaker 3: enough for people to go the year a year. We'll

806
00:38:49,991 --> 00:38:53,192
Speaker 3: just leave that one, you know, so everybody deals with

807
00:38:53,272 --> 00:38:55,112
Speaker 3: as I said, you know, I had so many women,

808
00:38:55,352 --> 00:38:57,751
Speaker 3: you know that there was about when I was in there.

809
00:38:57,872 --> 00:39:00,431
Speaker 3: The number grew up to about ten of us women

810
00:39:00,471 --> 00:39:02,792
Speaker 3: who were in for similar sorts of things, and every

811
00:39:02,832 --> 00:39:05,392
Speaker 3: one of us was different on how we chose to

812
00:39:05,431 --> 00:39:06,792
Speaker 3: handle other.

813
00:39:06,632 --> 00:39:07,352
Speaker 4: Inmates, you know.

814
00:39:07,672 --> 00:39:11,111
Speaker 3: So we were never really in main population, but we

815
00:39:11,112 --> 00:39:13,151
Speaker 3: did end up in wings that were thirty to forty

816
00:39:13,192 --> 00:39:16,192
Speaker 3: women strong. I said, so it's still you know, you're

817
00:39:16,232 --> 00:39:20,192
Speaker 3: still battling to survive the so called hierarchy at prison,

818
00:39:20,312 --> 00:39:21,112
Speaker 3: you know, I said.

819
00:39:20,991 --> 00:39:23,471
Speaker 2: So where would you all sat in the hierarchy?

820
00:39:25,312 --> 00:39:27,832
Speaker 3: I was never Queen Bee put it that way, but

821
00:39:28,232 --> 00:39:31,752
Speaker 3: I was never down the botom either, So it was

822
00:39:31,792 --> 00:39:34,312
Speaker 3: you know, I simply just chose to have my head down,

823
00:39:34,792 --> 00:39:36,792
Speaker 3: stay out of other people's business, which is what you do,

824
00:39:37,232 --> 00:39:43,032
Speaker 3: and worked as much as possible. And I think once

825
00:39:43,152 --> 00:39:46,991
Speaker 3: staff figure out that you're a hard worker and they

826
00:39:46,991 --> 00:39:48,911
Speaker 3: can get things, get you to do stuff, and then

827
00:39:49,112 --> 00:39:51,312
Speaker 3: they can rely on you to do it, you spend

828
00:39:51,352 --> 00:39:54,111
Speaker 3: far less time hanging around a whole lot of women

829
00:39:54,152 --> 00:39:57,672
Speaker 3: who are gossiping and just becoming negative in general. I

830
00:39:57,752 --> 00:39:59,792
Speaker 3: used to always try to align myself with people who

831
00:39:59,792 --> 00:40:02,952
Speaker 3: would joke and laugh and be merry rather than those

832
00:40:03,072 --> 00:40:06,951
Speaker 3: who were too focused on being victims and you know,

833
00:40:07,272 --> 00:40:08,672
Speaker 3: crying and lamenting that why.

834
00:40:08,551 --> 00:40:09,071
Speaker 4: They were there.

835
00:40:09,712 --> 00:40:12,551
Speaker 3: And people are always surprised when you say that you

836
00:40:12,592 --> 00:40:14,471
Speaker 3: would laugh while you're in prison. But there are some

837
00:40:14,592 --> 00:40:17,312
Speaker 3: absolutely cracker humorous things that can happen in a prison.

838
00:40:17,872 --> 00:40:20,392
Speaker 3: And if you don't have a sense of humor, you

839
00:40:20,431 --> 00:40:21,872
Speaker 3: know what you're supposed to do. I do have a

840
00:40:21,951 --> 00:40:23,951
Speaker 3: rather dark sense of humor, so it's not a you know,

841
00:40:24,272 --> 00:40:27,632
Speaker 3: but you know, prisoners can make light of any situation

842
00:40:27,672 --> 00:40:29,191
Speaker 3: if it helps them cope with why they're there.

843
00:40:29,511 --> 00:40:32,192
Speaker 1: Do you then leave all that behind, Kathleen, like do

844
00:40:32,232 --> 00:40:34,231
Speaker 1: you step away from prison. These are people you've spent

845
00:40:34,352 --> 00:40:37,672
Speaker 1: decades with and staff that you would have interacted with

846
00:40:37,752 --> 00:40:39,872
Speaker 1: every single day. Do you just leave all that behind

847
00:40:39,911 --> 00:40:41,592
Speaker 1: when you leave prison or do you stay in contact

848
00:40:41,592 --> 00:40:42,072
Speaker 1: with people.

849
00:40:42,352 --> 00:40:45,631
Speaker 3: I've got a handful of dear friends that I made

850
00:40:45,632 --> 00:40:48,152
Speaker 3: whilst I was inside, because I was extremely picky and

851
00:40:48,192 --> 00:40:50,471
Speaker 3: choosy about who I made friends with, and I used

852
00:40:50,471 --> 00:40:53,192
Speaker 3: to say that I would make friendly acquaintances and friendlies,

853
00:40:53,272 --> 00:40:57,071
Speaker 3: never friends, but occasionally one would sneak in that I

854
00:40:57,072 --> 00:41:01,232
Speaker 3: would have more more relatable with. So you know, probably one, two, three,

855
00:41:01,232 --> 00:41:03,672
Speaker 3: I probably got about four if that, and one lady

856
00:41:03,672 --> 00:41:06,792
Speaker 3: that is still inside that I you know, we have

857
00:41:06,832 --> 00:41:08,751
Speaker 3: a chat and I like to hear that she's doing

858
00:41:08,752 --> 00:41:11,991
Speaker 3: well and that you know, her plans for getting out,

859
00:41:12,872 --> 00:41:16,352
Speaker 3: which turned out to be if I had stayed in there,

860
00:41:16,632 --> 00:41:18,872
Speaker 3: we both would have been going parole in twenty twenty eight,

861
00:41:18,911 --> 00:41:22,471
Speaker 3: six months apart. So she's still doing very well, and

862
00:41:22,511 --> 00:41:24,232
Speaker 3: I know she's going to succeed when she gets out,

863
00:41:24,392 --> 00:41:28,392
Speaker 3: you know, I said so. But they are people who

864
00:41:28,392 --> 00:41:32,872
Speaker 3: are capable of turning things around and not drowning in

865
00:41:32,911 --> 00:41:35,752
Speaker 3: the seriousness and the traumatic side of being in prison.

866
00:41:36,352 --> 00:41:38,911
Speaker 1: See You've mentioned a few times that moving forward has

867
00:41:38,951 --> 00:41:41,031
Speaker 1: been a focus for pretty much your entire life and

868
00:41:41,072 --> 00:41:44,672
Speaker 1: has helped you remain resilient in times rather than looking

869
00:41:44,712 --> 00:41:48,832
Speaker 1: back and wallowing in self pity or in grief. So

870
00:41:48,911 --> 00:41:51,872
Speaker 1: where does forward look like for you? Because you and

871
00:41:51,911 --> 00:41:54,631
Speaker 1: Tracy have written a book together which you have been

872
00:41:54,872 --> 00:41:58,031
Speaker 1: touring around the place and really telling your story and

873
00:41:58,072 --> 00:42:02,552
Speaker 1: advocating for women who find themselves in this situation, which, interestingly,

874
00:42:02,551 --> 00:42:04,792
Speaker 1: at the time when you were before the courts, it

875
00:42:04,872 --> 00:42:09,232
Speaker 1: was like unheard of that four children could all you know,

876
00:42:09,312 --> 00:42:13,352
Speaker 1: die from SIDS from the same family, and it's been

877
00:42:13,392 --> 00:42:15,111
Speaker 1: revealed over time that that is in fact not the

878
00:42:15,152 --> 00:42:17,752
Speaker 1: case and that it has happened to other families. And

879
00:42:17,792 --> 00:42:20,792
Speaker 1: so your advocacy is now making sure that people understand

880
00:42:20,792 --> 00:42:24,592
Speaker 1: your story and how it can be implied to many others.

881
00:42:25,712 --> 00:42:29,832
Speaker 1: Is that where future Kathleen lives in the advocacy space?

882
00:42:30,072 --> 00:42:32,951
Speaker 2: Does she have other dreams that we're looking forward to?

883
00:42:33,792 --> 00:42:40,511
Speaker 3: I that's that cool. I don't mind doing things like this.

884
00:42:40,872 --> 00:42:42,991
Speaker 3: I don't mind if women wish to speak and talk

885
00:42:42,991 --> 00:42:46,832
Speaker 3: about how you cope with things like this. I'm a

886
00:42:46,872 --> 00:42:50,312
Speaker 3: firm believer that strength is an inward thing. I said,

887
00:42:50,752 --> 00:42:52,591
Speaker 3: everybody has it. It's there, you just have to tap

888
00:42:52,632 --> 00:42:56,792
Speaker 3: and find it. So you know it's doing this sort

889
00:42:56,792 --> 00:42:59,431
Speaker 3: of thing. I thought I would be quite shy and

890
00:42:59,471 --> 00:43:01,431
Speaker 3: reserved and in would with it and not be able

891
00:43:01,471 --> 00:43:04,392
Speaker 3: to do it. But it seems, you know, I'm doing

892
00:43:04,471 --> 00:43:07,951
Speaker 3: quite fine. The book for me was a very cathartic

893
00:43:08,072 --> 00:43:12,392
Speaker 3: thing to do, and I tapped into you know, I

894
00:43:12,471 --> 00:43:15,471
Speaker 3: write journals most of my life, so I think I

895
00:43:15,592 --> 00:43:19,071
Speaker 3: tapped into that ability to just write stuff and you know,

896
00:43:20,192 --> 00:43:23,431
Speaker 3: with help from editors and everything else that you know,

897
00:43:23,511 --> 00:43:25,151
Speaker 3: the crew that we did have to do this, try

898
00:43:25,192 --> 00:43:25,552
Speaker 3: to interrupt.

899
00:43:25,551 --> 00:43:27,312
Speaker 1: You're not concerned that anyone's going to look at these

900
00:43:27,392 --> 00:43:29,631
Speaker 1: journals at some stage and misinterpret them.

901
00:43:29,832 --> 00:43:32,591
Speaker 3: No, yeah, you know. So don't get me wrong, and

902
00:43:32,592 --> 00:43:37,312
Speaker 3: you never get me writing in another one. But writing

903
00:43:37,392 --> 00:43:40,872
Speaker 3: seems to be something I enjoyed doing, and it's whether

904
00:43:40,911 --> 00:43:42,231
Speaker 3: it's a flair or something I've got.

905
00:43:42,232 --> 00:43:43,832
Speaker 4: Who knows the future for me?

906
00:43:43,991 --> 00:43:46,591
Speaker 3: You know, I might travel to go down that path

907
00:43:46,632 --> 00:43:48,911
Speaker 3: again and just see if I could do something and

908
00:43:48,991 --> 00:43:52,671
Speaker 3: keep writing in such a fashion. And or yes, you're

909
00:43:52,752 --> 00:43:56,192
Speaker 3: doing talks around the place and encouraging women that I

910
00:43:56,192 --> 00:44:01,232
Speaker 3: think my message is basically, whatever you're going through, traumatic

911
00:44:01,312 --> 00:44:04,192
Speaker 3: or not, if you've got a group of friends that

912
00:44:04,232 --> 00:44:05,951
Speaker 3: are helping to hold you up and you've got the

913
00:44:05,951 --> 00:44:08,951
Speaker 3: scaf around you, you survive and you can come out

914
00:44:08,991 --> 00:44:13,151
Speaker 3: the other side. And even for those who don't have that,

915
00:44:13,192 --> 00:44:15,671
Speaker 3: there are so many organizations and that out there these

916
00:44:15,752 --> 00:44:18,272
Speaker 3: days that can help you through.

917
00:44:18,031 --> 00:44:18,832
Speaker 4: That sort of stuff.

918
00:44:19,112 --> 00:44:22,072
Speaker 3: I think my message just is there is life after

919
00:44:22,431 --> 00:44:24,152
Speaker 3: and you just have to make the decision that you

920
00:44:24,232 --> 00:44:28,272
Speaker 3: want it. I said, So that's my message. I'm pretty

921
00:44:28,272 --> 00:44:29,151
Speaker 3: an ordinary girl.

922
00:44:29,192 --> 00:44:31,072
Speaker 4: I don't you know. I'm not planning.

923
00:44:31,072 --> 00:44:34,152
Speaker 3: I'm you know, people say, how would you like to

924
00:44:34,152 --> 00:44:36,392
Speaker 3: go bunge of jumping, skydiving and doing all these things,

925
00:44:36,431 --> 00:44:37,991
Speaker 3: and I'm shaking my head going on and it's been

926
00:44:38,031 --> 00:44:39,511
Speaker 3: to any years in prison to go jumping out of

927
00:44:39,511 --> 00:44:40,392
Speaker 3: a plane and kill myself.

928
00:44:40,431 --> 00:44:40,911
Speaker 4: It's just not.

929
00:44:42,872 --> 00:44:46,192
Speaker 2: I've got life left to live now, right, yeah.

930
00:44:46,232 --> 00:44:48,991
Speaker 3: I said, So, you know, I enjoy simpler things, you know,

931
00:44:49,112 --> 00:44:51,192
Speaker 3: like walking the dog, you know, or just sitting on

932
00:44:51,232 --> 00:44:53,392
Speaker 3: the lounge with the own pattern. Is he a glorious

933
00:44:53,431 --> 00:44:55,752
Speaker 3: thing for me? Staring out a window watching life go

934
00:44:55,832 --> 00:44:56,752
Speaker 3: by my best thing.

935
00:44:56,752 --> 00:44:56,951
Speaker 4: Ever.

936
00:44:57,192 --> 00:44:59,392
Speaker 3: I'm quite a people person, watcher and I love to,

937
00:44:59,632 --> 00:45:01,791
Speaker 3: you know, do that sort of thing. It's simple things

938
00:45:01,832 --> 00:45:04,312
Speaker 3: like walk, sunrise of sunsets. I'm still enjoying all of

939
00:45:04,352 --> 00:45:06,792
Speaker 3: those things, good food to enjoy a little bit too

940
00:45:06,872 --> 00:45:07,632
Speaker 3: much unfortunately.

941
00:45:07,752 --> 00:45:08,911
Speaker 4: Ah, but you.

942
00:45:08,872 --> 00:45:11,712
Speaker 3: Know that's sort of like, you know, it's more simple

943
00:45:11,752 --> 00:45:14,392
Speaker 3: for me, and I enjoy the you know, the simpler

944
00:45:14,471 --> 00:45:18,352
Speaker 3: things in life. And I would be quite happy to

945
00:45:18,392 --> 00:45:20,991
Speaker 3: spend the next thirty years if I'm lucky to do that,

946
00:45:21,352 --> 00:45:23,392
Speaker 3: if I go off on the other paths and I write,

947
00:45:23,471 --> 00:45:25,952
Speaker 3: and I talk and I do these sorts of things

948
00:45:26,192 --> 00:45:29,312
Speaker 3: podcasts and whatever. To me, they're an added bonus, you know.

949
00:45:29,511 --> 00:45:32,711
Speaker 3: And if I'm helping anybody along the way, that's great too. Yeah,

950
00:45:32,951 --> 00:45:35,631
Speaker 3: I don't mind doing that. You know, we still got

951
00:45:35,672 --> 00:45:37,551
Speaker 3: in a whole you know, there are other people that

952
00:45:37,592 --> 00:45:40,232
Speaker 3: are going to tackle the whole legal reform in an

953
00:45:40,232 --> 00:45:43,111
Speaker 3: attempt to try to reform our system a little because

954
00:45:43,112 --> 00:45:45,712
Speaker 3: it does, unfortunately need it. Everyone has been in to

955
00:45:45,712 --> 00:45:48,592
Speaker 3: do with my case believes that, you know, a CECRC

956
00:45:48,911 --> 00:45:52,551
Speaker 3: Criminal Case Review Commissions needed and that that would be

957
00:45:52,551 --> 00:45:54,751
Speaker 3: a fairer way to do things. You know, I said,

958
00:45:54,991 --> 00:45:56,471
Speaker 3: you know, I believe that, you know, if there have

959
00:45:56,551 --> 00:45:59,431
Speaker 3: been that sort of committee or a commission available at

960
00:45:59,431 --> 00:46:01,792
Speaker 3: the time when my stuff will hit the fans, so

961
00:46:01,872 --> 00:46:03,952
Speaker 3: to speak. I may not have ended up in prison

962
00:46:03,951 --> 00:46:05,312
Speaker 3: for as long as I was in there. You know,

963
00:46:05,312 --> 00:46:08,632
Speaker 3: it could have been looked at, reviewed, you know, taken

964
00:46:08,672 --> 00:46:10,511
Speaker 3: on board and or you.

965
00:46:10,471 --> 00:46:11,191
Speaker 4: Know, but.

966
00:46:12,872 --> 00:46:14,312
Speaker 3: We just sort of think, you know, there was an

967
00:46:14,312 --> 00:46:16,951
Speaker 3: awful lot of in my case particular, an awful lot

968
00:46:16,991 --> 00:46:20,312
Speaker 3: of not listening going on because the decision had been made,

969
00:46:20,632 --> 00:46:23,272
Speaker 3: that the path chosen, and we had so much trouble

970
00:46:24,192 --> 00:46:27,551
Speaker 3: with the same information once, you know, once you get

971
00:46:27,551 --> 00:46:30,111
Speaker 3: denied appeals and you get and you're on a trial

972
00:46:30,152 --> 00:46:32,551
Speaker 3: and you get found guilty, it's so hard to get

973
00:46:32,551 --> 00:46:35,392
Speaker 3: the system to look or hear or see anything else.

974
00:46:35,752 --> 00:46:37,751
Speaker 3: And every time you're in front of a judge, they're

975
00:46:37,752 --> 00:46:40,511
Speaker 3: going off the same information all the time, and it's

976
00:46:40,672 --> 00:46:43,152
Speaker 3: very difficult to get them to all sideways.

977
00:46:42,712 --> 00:46:44,031
Speaker 4: In any way to go.

978
00:46:44,112 --> 00:46:46,232
Speaker 3: By the by the time I'd gone to Bathurst, you

979
00:46:46,312 --> 00:46:47,872
Speaker 3: were looking at you know, I think it was nearly

980
00:46:47,911 --> 00:46:50,832
Speaker 3: eighteen or judges I sat in front of in twenty years.

981
00:46:51,152 --> 00:46:54,911
Speaker 3: But he was the first semi progressive one that went okay,

982
00:46:55,392 --> 00:46:58,192
Speaker 3: there could be something to see what's going on, you know,

983
00:46:58,272 --> 00:47:01,272
Speaker 3: I said, so, it's just unfortunate it took twenty years

984
00:47:01,312 --> 00:47:01,711
Speaker 3: to get there.

985
00:47:02,272 --> 00:47:03,272
Speaker 4: Perform needs doing.

986
00:47:03,712 --> 00:47:06,832
Speaker 3: I can't see myself being a Big four when it

987
00:47:06,872 --> 00:47:10,232
Speaker 3: comes to the reform side. I've always said I'm happy

988
00:47:10,232 --> 00:47:12,471
Speaker 3: to be rolled out if my face case and me

989
00:47:12,632 --> 00:47:15,551
Speaker 3: speaking helps in that manner. But I'm not likely to

990
00:47:15,551 --> 00:47:18,232
Speaker 3: be up a parliment steps with the placard, you know,

991
00:47:18,712 --> 00:47:21,432
Speaker 3: and knocking on doors and saying you need to change something,

992
00:47:21,672 --> 00:47:25,272
Speaker 3: because I think that it needs to come from inside

993
00:47:25,272 --> 00:47:28,031
Speaker 3: the system. The system needs to change, so the threat

994
00:47:28,072 --> 00:47:29,151
Speaker 3: needs to come from.

995
00:47:29,712 --> 00:47:33,431
Speaker 1: Just finally, Kathleen, I want to understand from you how

996
00:47:33,511 --> 00:47:37,992
Speaker 1: you how you feel that place in your heart of mum,

997
00:47:39,031 --> 00:47:43,312
Speaker 1: you know, with Caleb making your mom, and then Patrick

998
00:47:43,431 --> 00:47:46,751
Speaker 1: and Sarah and Laura or adding to that, and then

999
00:47:47,031 --> 00:47:50,392
Speaker 1: your ability to become a mum again is cut off completely,

1000
00:47:50,431 --> 00:47:52,591
Speaker 1: you have, that option is taken away from you as

1001
00:47:52,592 --> 00:47:56,192
Speaker 1: your center prison. How do you feel that place in

1002
00:47:56,232 --> 00:47:59,591
Speaker 1: your heart because you are a mother. How do you

1003
00:47:59,632 --> 00:48:04,792
Speaker 1: then express that now that you're a free woman again.

1004
00:48:04,951 --> 00:48:06,631
Speaker 2: I I.

1005
00:48:08,192 --> 00:48:11,031
Speaker 3: I will always say I'm mom. I simply say I'm

1006
00:48:11,031 --> 00:48:13,872
Speaker 3: a childless mum, you know, sort of things. So as

1007
00:48:13,872 --> 00:48:16,551
Speaker 3: cruel as that sounds, that is what I am. I

1008
00:48:16,592 --> 00:48:20,352
Speaker 3: can still walk down the street and spot especially little

1009
00:48:20,392 --> 00:48:24,071
Speaker 3: toddlers will make me smile, knowing and especially when they're

1010
00:48:24,112 --> 00:48:25,911
Speaker 3: just you know, there was a little kid down the

1011
00:48:25,911 --> 00:48:28,711
Speaker 3: street not long a oot the shopping center I was at,

1012
00:48:29,232 --> 00:48:31,151
Speaker 3: had run away a bit from his parents. His parents

1013
00:48:31,192 --> 00:48:33,632
Speaker 3: didn't even really realize because they were busy to do something.

1014
00:48:34,272 --> 00:48:36,712
Speaker 3: He's kicking things around, He's doing whatever he wanted to.

1015
00:48:36,792 --> 00:48:38,952
Speaker 3: And I just simply smiled, looked at you and said,

1016
00:48:39,712 --> 00:48:41,951
Speaker 3: mayby be that age again when you just don't care,

1017
00:48:42,112 --> 00:48:45,152
Speaker 3: you're just doing your own thing, you know. And then parents,

1018
00:48:45,152 --> 00:48:46,951
Speaker 3: of course went right, you know sort of things. So

1019
00:48:47,592 --> 00:48:52,312
Speaker 3: sometimes you know, I've been to dinners and things with friends,

1020
00:48:52,352 --> 00:48:54,271
Speaker 3: and some of them I've thought I had had little

1021
00:48:54,312 --> 00:48:55,991
Speaker 3: ones there, grandchildren.

1022
00:48:56,031 --> 00:48:56,432
Speaker 4: Of course.

1023
00:48:56,752 --> 00:48:58,671
Speaker 3: At the time and the night, I'm fine with it

1024
00:48:58,752 --> 00:49:01,352
Speaker 3: and I can relate and do whatever, but I do

1025
00:49:01,431 --> 00:49:04,112
Speaker 3: suffer the next day with the depression. Here I said,

1026
00:49:04,192 --> 00:49:08,631
Speaker 3: So it's a response that's just automatic. I tend to

1027
00:49:08,672 --> 00:49:12,352
Speaker 3: want to not really go out or not see anyone,

1028
00:49:12,712 --> 00:49:16,071
Speaker 3: and I just need that time to go. Well, you know,

1029
00:49:16,352 --> 00:49:18,711
Speaker 3: as pleasant as that was, that her you know, I said,

1030
00:49:18,832 --> 00:49:22,191
Speaker 3: So I can still have quite painful moments with it all.

1031
00:49:22,551 --> 00:49:26,551
Speaker 3: And you know, Mother's Day I'm not a fan of

1032
00:49:27,072 --> 00:49:29,392
Speaker 3: because I don't get to celebrate it like everybody else.

1033
00:49:30,112 --> 00:49:32,111
Speaker 3: So I tend to steer clear of it, you know,

1034
00:49:32,192 --> 00:49:35,111
Speaker 3: I said. So there's just little things like that, you know.

1035
00:49:35,152 --> 00:49:37,911
Speaker 3: I said, So I always say I'm a mum, you know,

1036
00:49:37,951 --> 00:49:40,272
Speaker 3: and everyone else will say, you know, you're a mum, Cathy,

1037
00:49:40,471 --> 00:49:42,352
Speaker 3: that's all there is to it. I said, yes, But

1038
00:49:42,431 --> 00:49:45,471
Speaker 3: unfortunately I'm in the relegated unfortunate club of being a

1039
00:49:45,551 --> 00:49:46,792
Speaker 3: child loss mum.

1040
00:49:47,031 --> 00:49:47,671
Speaker 4: I said, So.

1041
00:49:49,192 --> 00:49:52,312
Speaker 3: There's it's a pain there that'll be there forever. It's

1042
00:49:52,352 --> 00:49:55,031
Speaker 3: never going to go away. People say time heels. I said,

1043
00:49:55,072 --> 00:49:58,792
Speaker 3: I don't believe that. I think time lessons not necessarily heels,

1044
00:49:59,152 --> 00:50:02,352
Speaker 3: you know, because you know, Caleb would be you know, gosh,

1045
00:50:02,712 --> 00:50:04,792
Speaker 3: nearly thirty six, you know, he said, if you'd been

1046
00:50:04,792 --> 00:50:06,471
Speaker 3: around it, we'd been about thirty six now, you know,

1047
00:50:06,511 --> 00:50:08,111
Speaker 3: I said, So all of my children would have been

1048
00:50:08,152 --> 00:50:10,192
Speaker 3: grown adults, moved on, and I possibly could have been

1049
00:50:10,192 --> 00:50:12,792
Speaker 3: a grandmother by now, you know, I said, So little

1050
00:50:12,792 --> 00:50:15,592
Speaker 3: things like that, you know, a sort of go that's

1051
00:50:15,632 --> 00:50:18,671
Speaker 3: a bit painful, but I used to live vicariously through

1052
00:50:18,672 --> 00:50:22,312
Speaker 3: everybody else's children, especially when I was inside. You know,

1053
00:50:22,511 --> 00:50:25,911
Speaker 3: Tracy's son, Presley, who adore He grew up in front

1054
00:50:25,951 --> 00:50:29,031
Speaker 3: of me, but I never actually met him until I

1055
00:50:29,072 --> 00:50:31,232
Speaker 3: was really sat day, you know, I said, so, you know,

1056
00:50:31,471 --> 00:50:33,671
Speaker 3: and my other friends children too. You know, I heard

1057
00:50:33,672 --> 00:50:37,872
Speaker 3: about them, heard about all their exploits. But it's very different.

1058
00:50:37,991 --> 00:50:40,712
Speaker 3: You know, people probably don't know this, but I've not

1059
00:50:40,792 --> 00:50:44,872
Speaker 3: had a child in my arms since. I think the

1060
00:50:44,872 --> 00:50:47,111
Speaker 3: first day I do when someone hands me a baby, says,

1061
00:50:47,152 --> 00:50:47,792
Speaker 3: can you just watch this?

1062
00:50:48,951 --> 00:50:52,312
Speaker 4: Be like, I'm not sure how that will go.

1063
00:50:54,592 --> 00:50:54,832
Speaker 3: Big.

1064
00:50:54,872 --> 00:50:57,152
Speaker 1: Thank you to Kathleen for speaking with us today. You

1065
00:50:57,192 --> 00:50:59,832
Speaker 1: can find her book with Tracy Chapman Inside Out at

1066
00:50:59,872 --> 00:51:01,712
Speaker 1: the link in our show notes. If you want to

1067
00:51:01,712 --> 00:51:04,232
Speaker 1: see images from this story, head to our Instagram page

1068
00:51:04,312 --> 00:51:07,232
Speaker 1: at True Crime Conversations us a follow, and have a

1069
00:51:07,232 --> 00:51:09,191
Speaker 1: look at our case explainers as well while you're there.

1070
00:51:09,712 --> 00:51:12,232
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please review our show on

1071
00:51:12,272 --> 00:51:15,631
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. True Crime

1072
00:51:15,672 --> 00:51:18,671
Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by

1073
00:51:18,712 --> 00:51:21,152
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

1074
00:51:21,752 --> 00:51:22,952
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

1075
00:51:22,991 --> 00:51:25,672
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation.