WEBVTT - The Mother Who Won’t Put A Trigger Warning On Her Child’s Life 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:14.165 You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast. Mama 0:00:14.245 --> 0:00:16.965 Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 0:00:17.005 --> 0:00:18.525 this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.765 --> 0:00:22.045 So let me get this straight. You, as a very 0:00:22.125 --> 0:00:26.085 privileged person who have got two healthy children as far 0:00:26.125 --> 0:00:31.045 as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma 0:00:31.085 --> 0:00:34.285 and pain to put a trigger warning on my child's 0:00:34.325 --> 0:00:37.365 life to make you feel more comfortable. 0:00:37.205 --> 0:00:40.365 From I'm Meya Friedman. And you're listening to No Filter 0:00:42.125 --> 0:00:45.925 at a recent performance of Macbeth by a Melbourne theater company. Recently, 0:00:46.525 --> 0:00:49.605 the program included a content warning. It's something that's become 0:00:49.725 --> 0:00:52.365 quite common, not just in the theater, but in podcasts, 0:00:52.565 --> 0:00:56.805 on websites and blogs on social media, and even in books. 0:00:57.165 --> 0:00:59.965 I'm sure you've seen them. They're sometimes called trigger warnings, 0:01:00.405 --> 0:01:02.925 and the idea behind them is that before you consume 0:01:02.965 --> 0:01:05.805 a piece of content, you know what you're getting in 0:01:05.805 --> 0:01:08.565 case the subject matter is upsetting to you, so that 0:01:08.645 --> 0:01:13.125 way you can prepare yourself somehow or avoid it altogether. 0:01:13.765 --> 0:01:16.405 I'll read you the content warning for this Macbeth performance. 0:01:17.085 --> 0:01:19.325 It's quite long, so i'll only read part of it. 0:01:19.325 --> 0:01:23.565 It said this production contains coarse language explicit depiction of 0:01:23.645 --> 0:01:29.245 violence and blood, sexual references, discussion of warfare, discussion of infanticide, misogyny, 0:01:29.365 --> 0:01:33.605 occasional drinking and smoking, references to death or dying, references 0:01:33.605 --> 0:01:37.245 to mental illness, and depictions of ableism, occasional use of 0:01:37.285 --> 0:01:42.245 prop weapons, loud and dynamic sound and smoke effects. That's 0:01:42.285 --> 0:01:44.925 just the start, though. It actually goes on for about 0:01:44.925 --> 0:01:47.845 another five hundred words or so, and under each of 0:01:47.885 --> 0:01:51.965 those topics it lists a lot of detail about how 0:01:52.005 --> 0:01:55.445 they're used in the performance. For example, it lists the 0:01:55.525 --> 0:01:59.525 number of times certain swear words are used. It notes 0:01:59.645 --> 0:02:03.245 that there are themes of misogyny and ableism, and under 0:02:03.285 --> 0:02:07.125 each of those examples it gets very specific. For example, 0:02:07.245 --> 0:02:11.085 under the subheading of infanticide, it says, in the closing 0:02:11.125 --> 0:02:14.205 scenes of the work, Macduff accuses Lady Macbeth of ordering 0:02:14.205 --> 0:02:17.525 the murder of Lady Macduff's infant. This case of infanticide 0:02:17.565 --> 0:02:21.445 is only spoken about, not enacted on stage. Good to know. 0:02:22.445 --> 0:02:24.805 It's not just this theater company, though, and I'm not 0:02:24.925 --> 0:02:28.165 naming them because I don't want anyone to be attacking 0:02:28.205 --> 0:02:32.245 them or piling onto them. You might have noticed something 0:02:32.285 --> 0:02:36.645 called trigger creep. It's a proliferation of warnings and an 0:02:36.685 --> 0:02:40.285 expansion of those warnings about all sorts of things that 0:02:40.325 --> 0:02:43.645 are popping up in all sorts of places. In the 0:02:43.685 --> 0:02:46.605 past few months, I've been keeping some notes, and I've 0:02:46.645 --> 0:02:54.045 seen trigger warnings for some of the following things. Anxiety, depression, suicide, blood, hospitals, 0:02:54.245 --> 0:02:59.885 self harm, sexual abuse, cancer, domestic violence, exercise, grief, racism, 0:02:59.965 --> 0:03:07.405 mental health, war, eating disorders, transphobia, homophobia, alcohol, poverty, ableism, childlessness, 0:03:07.565 --> 0:03:15.165 emotional abuse, divorce, diet culture, miscarriage, self harm, infertility, car accidents, meat, 0:03:15.445 --> 0:03:20.885 sexist language, menstruation, and menopause. And that's an exhausting list, 0:03:21.005 --> 0:03:24.085 but it's by no means exhaustive. There were many other 0:03:24.125 --> 0:03:27.765 things as well. And look, it would be really easy 0:03:27.805 --> 0:03:29.645 to have a rant at this point and talk about 0:03:29.685 --> 0:03:33.485 the world going mad and people being snowflakes. But that's 0:03:33.565 --> 0:03:36.525 not what No Filter is about. It's not a runty show, 0:03:36.845 --> 0:03:40.325 and I'm not a rounty person. No Filter is fundamentally 0:03:40.405 --> 0:03:43.445 a show about people and their stories, and many of 0:03:43.485 --> 0:03:47.605 those stories cover those kinds of topics because No Filter 0:03:47.685 --> 0:03:49.965 is about what it means to be human. And I 0:03:50.005 --> 0:03:53.165 think that everybody involved in this debate really does come 0:03:53.205 --> 0:03:56.205 from a good place, I do. Those in favor of 0:03:56.205 --> 0:04:00.885 content warnings insist that it's basic decency to warn people 0:04:00.925 --> 0:04:04.165 before they hear or read something that might upset them, 0:04:04.525 --> 0:04:09.125 which sounds very reasonable. Those against trigger warnings insist that 0:04:09.165 --> 0:04:11.885 it is a ridiculous form of pandering and that it's 0:04:11.965 --> 0:04:16.365 actually counter productive, which is another interesting perspective and probably 0:04:16.405 --> 0:04:19.885 the one that I share. But what does the science say? 0:04:20.005 --> 0:04:22.685 It doesn't matter what I think. What are medical professionals 0:04:22.765 --> 0:04:26.925 who work with traumatized people advise? What a traumatized people 0:04:26.965 --> 0:04:32.885 themselves actually say? Are trigger warnings actually helpful? Well, spoiler no, 0:04:33.165 --> 0:04:34.885 as it turns out, But we will get to that. 0:04:35.445 --> 0:04:38.005 What I want to explore today is what's going on? 0:04:38.525 --> 0:04:41.005 Why do we suddenly feel that we need to warn 0:04:41.045 --> 0:04:44.965 people about everything? And then you can decide for yourself 0:04:45.005 --> 0:04:47.125 whether they're a good idea or not. This is a 0:04:47.165 --> 0:04:50.125 special episode of No Filter because today I'm bringing you 0:04:50.165 --> 0:04:52.405 two guests. In a little bit you're going to meet 0:04:52.445 --> 0:04:56.885 Victoria Bridgeland. She's a researcher here in Australia who has 0:04:56.925 --> 0:05:00.965 actually done the definitive global study on trigger warnings and 0:05:01.045 --> 0:05:05.245 what she found may surprise you, but First, you're going 0:05:05.245 --> 0:05:08.845 to meet Rachel Cassella. You may remember Rachel if you 0:05:08.885 --> 0:05:12.805 are a p particular longtime listener of No Filter. She's 0:05:12.845 --> 0:05:15.325 been on a previous episode of No Filter, and she's 0:05:15.365 --> 0:05:19.405 written quite a lot on Muma Maya and she's also 0:05:19.645 --> 0:05:23.085 a big advocate on social media. She's amazing. She's a 0:05:23.125 --> 0:05:27.365 detective sergeant in the AFP, and she's a fearless advocate 0:05:27.685 --> 0:05:31.205 for the memory of her little girl, Mackenzie. And I 0:05:31.205 --> 0:05:33.605 don't want to say more now because nobody can talk 0:05:33.685 --> 0:05:38.885 about McKenzie like Rachel does. And importantly, there is no 0:05:38.925 --> 0:05:42.205 trigger warning or content warning on what you're about to hear, 0:05:42.525 --> 0:05:48.445 and that's very deliberate. Here's Rachel Cassella. Rach, I want 0:05:48.485 --> 0:05:50.845 to start by asking you about McKenzie. Tell me about her. 0:05:51.805 --> 0:05:54.885 The love of my life, which now I feel guilty 0:05:54.885 --> 0:05:58.205 about seeing because you know, I've got other children, but 0:05:58.325 --> 0:06:03.765 she just changed everything for me. McKenzie's my first born. 0:06:04.245 --> 0:06:06.885 I did have pregnancies before her, but she was my 0:06:07.005 --> 0:06:11.725 first born, little girl. She was born eleventh of March 0:06:11.805 --> 0:06:16.205 twenty seventeen and she was just magic, pure perfection. 0:06:16.565 --> 0:06:18.205 Did you always know you wanted to be a mum? 0:06:18.685 --> 0:06:21.765 Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to your episode about 0:06:22.005 --> 0:06:25.005 people not knowing, and I've always thought that would be 0:06:25.045 --> 0:06:28.085 sort of the hardest part is in the space of 0:06:28.125 --> 0:06:31.485 not knowing, because I've always known deepen my soul and 0:06:31.845 --> 0:06:35.725 that puzzle piece when she arrived just clicked into place. 0:06:36.645 --> 0:06:38.045 Was it hard to get pregnant with her. 0:06:38.965 --> 0:06:41.485 No, it took a couple of months, but when I 0:06:41.605 --> 0:06:44.565 actually knew what my ovulation window is, because I think 0:06:44.605 --> 0:06:47.645 we spent so much time in schools turning to lessons 0:06:47.685 --> 0:06:50.045 about how not to get pregnant that a lot of people, 0:06:50.085 --> 0:06:54.725 including me, didn't actually know my fertile window or my 0:06:54.925 --> 0:06:57.965 ovulation day. So once we got that, we did have 0:06:58.005 --> 0:07:01.125 a miscarriage before McKenzie at six and a half weeks, 0:07:01.165 --> 0:07:05.525 which was devastating at the time, but unfortunately that's now 0:07:05.605 --> 0:07:09.085 been buried for one of a better term under a 0:07:09.685 --> 0:07:12.045 lot of other trauma that's piled on top of it, 0:07:12.125 --> 0:07:15.485 because when Mackenzie was ten weeks old, she was diagnosed 0:07:16.125 --> 0:07:20.405 with a terminal condition, a genetic terminal conditioner called spinal 0:07:20.525 --> 0:07:23.725 muscular atrophy. We lost her when she was seven months 0:07:23.725 --> 0:07:24.725 and eleven days old. 0:07:25.285 --> 0:07:28.325 Those first ten weeks before you knew what were. 0:07:28.165 --> 0:07:32.805 They like like I had one lolotto. I literally remember 0:07:33.445 --> 0:07:37.485 strutting down the street like I had this. I don't know, 0:07:37.525 --> 0:07:40.365 A new world had been open to me. I felt 0:07:40.365 --> 0:07:44.645 like I was getting beautiful attention, My baby was getting 0:07:44.645 --> 0:07:50.565 beautiful attention. I felt special. This just love. Yeah, it 0:07:50.605 --> 0:07:51.885 was just pure magic. 0:07:52.485 --> 0:07:55.325 How was she diagnosed? Because there were no genetic tests 0:07:55.365 --> 0:07:57.885 back then, you and your husband were both carriers of 0:07:57.845 --> 0:08:00.565 a genetic condition that you had not been told about 0:08:00.645 --> 0:08:03.125 or tested for. How did you find out? 0:08:03.525 --> 0:08:08.445 Very quickly, very abruptly. She had a lactation consultant appointment. 0:08:08.845 --> 0:08:11.205 They said that she wasn't moving the way that she should. 0:08:11.805 --> 0:08:15.405 I quickly rushed her to a local GP who very 0:08:15.805 --> 0:08:18.325 scarily sort of said, you need to go to see 0:08:18.325 --> 0:08:22.765 a pediatrician. Immediately got into a pediatrician appointment two days later, 0:08:22.845 --> 0:08:25.605 and within five minutes of being a that appointment, he 0:08:25.685 --> 0:08:28.685 diagnosed her and said it was terminal. So it went 0:08:28.765 --> 0:08:32.365 from thinking that I was on cloud nine to just 0:08:32.725 --> 0:08:35.085 wondering how I was supposed to actually survive to the 0:08:35.125 --> 0:08:38.925 next day. How did he deliver that news really abruptly? 0:08:39.405 --> 0:08:41.045 I would say that there's no good way to say 0:08:41.085 --> 0:08:42.645 that news. But I think there's a better way to 0:08:42.685 --> 0:08:46.605 say that news. Our later interactions with who would become 0:08:46.685 --> 0:08:51.525 McKenzie's neurologists were much more pleasant, despite the situation. But 0:08:51.725 --> 0:08:54.925 he just said, I'm pretty sure it's spinne, a muscular atrophy, 0:08:54.965 --> 0:08:57.045 and we went, well, what is that? And he said 0:08:57.045 --> 0:09:00.765 it's terminal. I froze and shut down initially, and then 0:09:00.805 --> 0:09:02.885 after a couple of minutes, I started like sort of 0:09:03.525 --> 0:09:06.285 getting really upset and he told me to calm down, missy, 0:09:06.645 --> 0:09:10.525 and that's just burnt in my head, all right. We 0:09:10.525 --> 0:09:13.245 were made to pay a big bill as we were 0:09:13.325 --> 0:09:16.285 leaving his office, and we left back home. It wasn't 0:09:16.325 --> 0:09:18.885 until later that we sort of knew we should have 0:09:19.005 --> 0:09:21.565 been taken straight down to Sydney Children's Hospital to meet 0:09:21.605 --> 0:09:24.085 with the neurologists, to not have been left to leave 0:09:24.085 --> 0:09:25.085 that appointment that way. 0:09:25.605 --> 0:09:29.245 Was anyone able to tell you what the future held 0:09:29.605 --> 0:09:30.285 for McKenzie. 0:09:30.805 --> 0:09:35.645 The neurologist was able to talk to us. We had 0:09:35.925 --> 0:09:39.085 the first initial discussion as to whether to put her 0:09:39.085 --> 0:09:42.965 on an experimental trial drug, and then we were told, 0:09:43.045 --> 0:09:45.045 once we made the decision, that that was not the 0:09:45.125 --> 0:09:48.405 right way for us and for her, based on a 0:09:48.605 --> 0:09:52.805 whole number of levels. We were told she would likely 0:09:52.885 --> 0:09:55.325 either get a cold and go in and out of 0:09:55.365 --> 0:09:58.125 hospital for a lot of her life until she just 0:09:58.165 --> 0:10:01.365 got so weak she couldn't fight it. Or we got 0:10:01.405 --> 0:10:03.685 told that we would wake up one morning and she 0:10:04.005 --> 0:10:07.285 would just die in her bascinet when we looked in there. 0:10:07.885 --> 0:10:09.045 How long did you have with her? 0:10:09.845 --> 0:10:12.645 So we had seven months and eleven days, I mean 0:10:12.645 --> 0:10:16.165 obviously a near a few months after her diagnosis. 0:10:16.245 --> 0:10:20.045 Yeah, so, Rach, I can't even begin. And now everyone 0:10:20.405 --> 0:10:22.125 says to you, I know, how do you get out 0:10:22.165 --> 0:10:23.925 of bed? How do you do it? How do you live? 0:10:25.165 --> 0:10:26.085 Do you have an answer to that? 0:10:26.565 --> 0:10:29.005 You've got no choice? I mean, I suppose you do 0:10:29.085 --> 0:10:30.925 have a choice. There are some people who don't come 0:10:31.005 --> 0:10:34.405 through it, and they do take their own life. There 0:10:34.405 --> 0:10:38.245 were certainly times where I wished myself to not be here. 0:10:39.125 --> 0:10:42.125 After she was diagnosed, we knew that we had to 0:10:42.165 --> 0:10:46.165 give her everything. So she was our reason of continuing 0:10:46.205 --> 0:10:49.045 and getting out of bed every day until she passed away. 0:10:49.725 --> 0:10:52.125 And then after that all of the days sort of 0:10:52.125 --> 0:10:56.885 become a blur of pain, and then it became what 0:10:56.925 --> 0:11:00.765 are we going to do for her to celebrate her life? 0:11:00.925 --> 0:11:03.685 To help others not go through the same thing. Then 0:11:03.725 --> 0:11:06.605 it was how we're going to get her siblings, and 0:11:06.645 --> 0:11:11.005 so there was always something to fight for, and I 0:11:11.125 --> 0:11:15.165 put everything I had into those Whether that was healthy always, 0:11:16.005 --> 0:11:18.645 I don't know, but it was my way of coping. 0:11:19.205 --> 0:11:21.685 In terms of trauma, it's hard to think of something 0:11:21.685 --> 0:11:26.725 more traumatic and ongoing than what you experienced. Are there 0:11:26.765 --> 0:11:30.845 certain things that trigger a response in your body, certain 0:11:30.885 --> 0:11:34.005 things that abruptly distress you? 0:11:34.765 --> 0:11:38.605 Yes, I mean there's some kind of obvious ones. I 0:11:38.645 --> 0:11:41.925 don't think when it comes to triggers, they're not usually 0:11:41.965 --> 0:11:45.525 obvious for people, even though society wants to assume that 0:11:45.565 --> 0:11:50.245 they are. They're not. They're very specific and personalized. I mean, 0:11:50.285 --> 0:11:55.005 my most generic, I suppose, was the sound of ambulances 0:11:55.565 --> 0:11:59.285 because McKenzie stopped breathing at home in my arms, and 0:11:59.605 --> 0:12:03.845 we rush our lights and sirens in an ambulance to 0:12:03.845 --> 0:12:06.925 Sidney Children's Hospital and I just under in my lap 0:12:06.965 --> 0:12:10.085 and I was just singing Twinkle Twinkle Star in her 0:12:10.125 --> 0:12:14.485 ear as we drove. And so the sound of ambulances 0:12:14.845 --> 0:12:18.485 it's not as prevalent a trigger anymore because I have 0:12:18.565 --> 0:12:20.965 been exposed to it. You don't get a warning the 0:12:21.005 --> 0:12:24.365 ambulances are around. I still have a little bit of 0:12:24.365 --> 0:12:26.565 a because I know that on the end of that 0:12:26.645 --> 0:12:31.285 ambulance is a family like mine. But my triggers are 0:12:32.045 --> 0:12:35.725 for a while, obviously it was pregnancy announcements. I still 0:12:35.885 --> 0:12:40.805 get triggered by large families. She is strange. I get 0:12:40.845 --> 0:12:45.285 really triggered by positive thinking or magical thinking or manifestation. 0:12:46.325 --> 0:12:48.285 I had a trigger the other day, which is quite 0:12:48.325 --> 0:12:50.485 strange by Courtney Kardashian. 0:12:50.765 --> 0:12:51.445 What did she do? 0:12:51.965 --> 0:12:57.725 So she had her recent son had surgery in utero, 0:12:58.325 --> 0:13:02.485 and the conversation with her was it was scary, but 0:13:02.885 --> 0:13:06.325 I knew that if I just thought positively and if 0:13:06.365 --> 0:13:09.765 I prayed to God, then everything would be okay. And 0:13:09.805 --> 0:13:13.645 once I started thinking positively, the lung stopped filling up 0:13:13.685 --> 0:13:18.125 with fluids. So that's really triggering for a lot of people, 0:13:18.245 --> 0:13:21.645 especially in the baby loss community, because it's like or 0:13:22.045 --> 0:13:25.845 any type of brief or losses like I did positive thinking. 0:13:26.285 --> 0:13:30.605 I did everything you could possibly imagine for McKenzie to 0:13:30.805 --> 0:13:36.205 wish and pray and positively make her better. But then 0:13:36.605 --> 0:13:39.325 I did nine rounds of IVF. I lost another two 0:13:39.365 --> 0:13:42.365 babies at sixteen weeks pregnant, that I had to walk 0:13:42.445 --> 0:13:46.245 into the hospital and say goodbye to And I did everything. 0:13:46.765 --> 0:13:51.725 I have done, soul work, inesiology, I have done negative 0:13:51.765 --> 0:13:55.085 thinking in the hope that it would stop me from falling. 0:13:55.165 --> 0:13:59.125 So far, I've written lists, I've done research. There is 0:13:59.165 --> 0:14:03.365 not anything that I haven't done. And to hear someone say, well, 0:14:03.365 --> 0:14:07.085 I prayed right or I did the right positive thinking, 0:14:07.125 --> 0:14:09.885 and that's what happens, like, I understand the space for it, 0:14:09.965 --> 0:14:11.485 but I find it really triggering. 0:14:12.205 --> 0:14:14.885 When you say triggering, can you explain what happens in 0:14:15.525 --> 0:14:17.005 your body and in your mind? 0:14:18.005 --> 0:14:23.925 My heart starts racing, I get really sweaty hands. My 0:14:24.045 --> 0:14:27.965 brain feels like it's a tornado. I can't catch my thought. 0:14:28.045 --> 0:14:30.765 It just goes around and around, and then the conversation 0:14:31.005 --> 0:14:36.085 that I have in my head won't stop for hours. 0:14:35.965 --> 0:14:39.565 After the break. Why Rachel, who gets triggered all the time, 0:14:40.085 --> 0:14:52.645 still doesn't want trigger warnings? So what have you learned 0:14:53.445 --> 0:14:57.165 is the best way to cope or a way to cope? 0:14:57.205 --> 0:14:59.205 How do you cope with that? Because obviously you want 0:14:59.205 --> 0:15:03.045 to avoid those triggers, but how do you. 0:15:02.605 --> 0:15:06.805 Well, I don't avoid the triggers because they're everywhere, you know, 0:15:06.885 --> 0:15:09.965 hearing about children who have passed away, or any type 0:15:10.005 --> 0:15:13.125 of grief that doesn't trigger me. It makes me feel 0:15:13.165 --> 0:15:16.565 comforted in some ways, and that there are other people 0:15:16.965 --> 0:15:19.965 who are out there who know how I feel. It 0:15:20.045 --> 0:15:24.285 makes me sad that someone else knows that pain. Usually, 0:15:24.325 --> 0:15:27.045 if it's someone on Instagram, for instance, I will usually 0:15:27.045 --> 0:15:30.525 write to them in their DMS and say that I'm 0:15:30.565 --> 0:15:35.325 here if they are new to this world of grief. 0:15:35.925 --> 0:15:38.565 But I don't avoid them because the things that trigger 0:15:38.645 --> 0:15:42.565 me are not things that come with trigger warnings. Sometimes 0:15:42.605 --> 0:15:45.685 I'll read it and I will let my body go 0:15:45.765 --> 0:15:48.565 through what it needs to go through because it's unavoidable. 0:15:48.965 --> 0:15:52.565 Sometimes I will close an article or close something, but 0:15:52.685 --> 0:15:55.045 I know that that means that that's something that I 0:15:55.085 --> 0:15:59.125 need to work on. A trigger is obviously it's like 0:15:59.165 --> 0:16:02.485 a little warning sign of Okay, there's something that's agitated there. 0:16:02.925 --> 0:16:04.405 I'm probably going to have to work on that. 0:16:04.925 --> 0:16:08.285 You wrote a fantastic piece first on your Instagram? What 0:16:08.365 --> 0:16:10.525 led to that post on your Instagram? 0:16:10.925 --> 0:16:14.125 So my Instagram is I created that space as a 0:16:14.125 --> 0:16:17.285 way of sharing Mackenzie. I had no idea that it 0:16:17.405 --> 0:16:21.565 was going to turn into the space that it is now, 0:16:22.165 --> 0:16:25.045 but I have been trying so hard for it to 0:16:25.125 --> 0:16:28.725 still remain in my space. It's my space, whether people 0:16:28.725 --> 0:16:30.965 want to follow me or not. A lot of the 0:16:31.005 --> 0:16:34.045 people who follow me have experienced some kinds of child 0:16:34.125 --> 0:16:37.405 loss or loss, but I'm also really amazed that there's 0:16:37.445 --> 0:16:41.085 also a lot of people who have an experienced loss 0:16:41.125 --> 0:16:44.445 and they're just here to learn, which I love. I 0:16:44.525 --> 0:16:46.085 have a lot of people who reach out to me 0:16:46.325 --> 0:16:49.325 and say, my friend just had a stillborn and thanks 0:16:49.365 --> 0:16:51.005 to you, I knew the right thing or the wrong 0:16:51.085 --> 0:16:55.125 thing to say, so that is amazing. But occasionally someone 0:16:55.165 --> 0:16:58.125 will come across my page, as they do on the internet, 0:16:58.565 --> 0:17:01.325 and will have an opinion, and most of the time 0:17:01.445 --> 0:17:04.605 I can block it out. But I remember I got 0:17:04.605 --> 0:17:08.645 contacted by someone who Instagram had fed me to her 0:17:08.725 --> 0:17:12.525 as a suggested page. She was pregnant with her second, 0:17:12.565 --> 0:17:14.765 and she reached out to me to say, you should 0:17:14.805 --> 0:17:18.605 put a trigger warning on your page. And I engaged 0:17:18.685 --> 0:17:21.685 in conversation with her and I said, can you explain 0:17:21.725 --> 0:17:24.045 to me why you think that, And she said, I'm 0:17:24.085 --> 0:17:28.325 pregnant with my second and hearing about the possibility or 0:17:28.365 --> 0:17:30.925 your life makes me stressed. And I'm like, so, let 0:17:30.965 --> 0:17:35.285 me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person 0:17:35.525 --> 0:17:38.445 who have got two healthy children as far as you know, 0:17:39.205 --> 0:17:44.005 want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain, to 0:17:44.045 --> 0:17:46.845 put a trigger warning on my child's life to make 0:17:46.925 --> 0:17:50.725 you feel more comfortable. And that's what kicked off me 0:17:50.805 --> 0:17:52.085 writing that post. 0:17:52.365 --> 0:17:55.365 It's interesting your choice of words there. You say, put 0:17:55.365 --> 0:18:00.005 a trigger warning on my child's life. That's exactly what 0:18:00.045 --> 0:18:02.885 it is, isn't it. It's saying this might be so 0:18:03.085 --> 0:18:08.165 upsetting to you, who never knew McKenzie and who isn't 0:18:08.205 --> 0:18:12.725 her mother or her father, that I need to put 0:18:12.845 --> 0:18:18.285 your feelings before my own and before honoring my daughter. 0:18:19.005 --> 0:18:24.005 It's a way for people to curate their life because 0:18:24.405 --> 0:18:26.845 I would say that ninety ninety percent of the time 0:18:26.925 --> 0:18:30.045 the people who want the trigger warning haven't experienced that trauma, 0:18:30.485 --> 0:18:32.965 because most of the people, at least in the child 0:18:33.005 --> 0:18:37.205 lost community, do not want trigger warnings on their children. 0:18:37.565 --> 0:18:39.645 We didn't get a warning that this was going to 0:18:39.685 --> 0:18:43.485 happen to us, and we want to share our child 0:18:44.165 --> 0:18:47.605 and to say put a trigger warning, it's like you're 0:18:47.765 --> 0:18:51.605 telling me that my life is so bad and it 0:18:51.725 --> 0:18:55.205 makes you uncomfortable that this exists in the world. So 0:18:55.245 --> 0:18:57.805 you want to cover me up so you can curate 0:18:57.845 --> 0:19:02.125 your world on what's positive in your mind, whereas I 0:19:02.165 --> 0:19:07.165 see my daughter as positive, Like, yes, extreme pain, but 0:19:07.245 --> 0:19:11.085 the gifts that she has given me are endless. She's 0:19:11.165 --> 0:19:12.245 changed me for the better. 0:19:12.805 --> 0:19:15.725 You said something really interesting in the piece you wrote 0:19:15.805 --> 0:19:19.565 about this for Mamma Maya. You said, trigger warnings aren't 0:19:19.925 --> 0:19:23.085 for people who've experienced things. They're for people who are 0:19:23.125 --> 0:19:27.885 scared of experiencing those things. Because they're so often claimed 0:19:28.085 --> 0:19:32.045 to be protective of the people who have experienced trauma, 0:19:32.085 --> 0:19:34.165 and maybe in some cases they are. Maybe there are 0:19:34.205 --> 0:19:37.365 some people who don't want to read about a particular 0:19:37.645 --> 0:19:42.285 traumatic experience that they've gone through, but that's pretty subjective, 0:19:42.325 --> 0:19:42.725 isn't it. 0:19:43.245 --> 0:19:46.685 I still completely agree that they're not for the people 0:19:46.725 --> 0:19:49.445 who have experienced the trauma for they're for the people 0:19:49.445 --> 0:19:53.165 who are scared to experience the trauma and for those 0:19:53.245 --> 0:19:57.125 who have had the trauma. I do feel bad for 0:19:57.165 --> 0:20:01.525 any triggering moments, but studies have shown that one of 0:20:01.565 --> 0:20:05.125 the best ways to be never going to get over 0:20:05.285 --> 0:20:07.645 but one of the best ways to process what you've 0:20:07.685 --> 0:20:12.445 gone through is to have of exposures. I really worry 0:20:12.525 --> 0:20:16.485 about the curation of life and the feeling that we 0:20:16.565 --> 0:20:19.685 need to start putting triggers on everything because you know, 0:20:19.725 --> 0:20:25.325 where does it end? Because what triggers me is something 0:20:25.365 --> 0:20:27.805 that I would never put someone like in the child 0:20:27.805 --> 0:20:31.005 loss community, a lot of pregnancy announcements are triggering, And 0:20:31.045 --> 0:20:34.525 now I'm starting to see pregnancy announcements with trigger warnings 0:20:34.525 --> 0:20:38.165 for the people who are in the infertility space, and 0:20:38.205 --> 0:20:40.325 it's like, no, I don't agree with trigger warnings on 0:20:40.365 --> 0:20:45.405 that either, because that's someone's joy. You know. I just 0:20:45.445 --> 0:20:48.205 don't believe in trigger warnings at all. I think in 0:20:48.285 --> 0:20:52.245 some cases they might allow someone to avoid an article 0:20:52.365 --> 0:20:56.405 for a short period of time, but in the long term, 0:20:56.445 --> 0:20:59.645 it's not going to do that person any good for 0:20:59.725 --> 0:21:02.325 everyone else. It's going to be negative. It's going to, 0:21:02.845 --> 0:21:05.925 I guess, make us weak. It's not going to prepare 0:21:06.005 --> 0:21:06.685 us for life. 0:21:08.045 --> 0:21:12.685 So your philosophy is that we have responsibility for our 0:21:12.725 --> 0:21:16.005 own emotions and our own mental health and we shouldn't 0:21:16.045 --> 0:21:19.085 be outsourcing that to the Internet to protect us with 0:21:19.125 --> 0:21:19.925 trigger warnings. 0:21:20.365 --> 0:21:23.445 Yeah, I mean it's very hard. I feel for people 0:21:23.485 --> 0:21:26.565 with mental health issues. I am one of them. Yeah, 0:21:26.605 --> 0:21:30.525 you know, I have a lot of diagnoses and on 0:21:30.605 --> 0:21:36.285 the medication, and I do take responsibility for what I consume. 0:21:36.805 --> 0:21:39.165 If I'm not in the right head space, then maybe 0:21:39.365 --> 0:21:42.485 going on the internet's not the place for me. I 0:21:42.525 --> 0:21:45.525 know that that can seem a bit harsh, and I 0:21:45.605 --> 0:21:48.925 really appreciate that society these days are more inclusive of 0:21:49.005 --> 0:21:53.365 people with mental health issues. I really appreciate that. Originally 0:21:53.405 --> 0:21:56.645 the thought behind it was in the right space, but 0:21:56.765 --> 0:22:00.365 the research shows that it doesn't work, and I just 0:22:00.405 --> 0:22:03.125 think that they're doing more harm than goods, So it's 0:22:03.285 --> 0:22:05.365 not for other people to protect me. 0:22:05.925 --> 0:22:09.005 You've also spoken and written about trauma creep, because of course, 0:22:09.045 --> 0:22:12.045 trigger warnings are meant to be for people who have 0:22:12.125 --> 0:22:16.445 experienced trauma to avoid being retraumatized. The question of who's 0:22:16.525 --> 0:22:20.805 trauma tized and what trauma is ties into this, doesn't it. 0:22:20.805 --> 0:22:22.605 Can you explain what trauma creep is? 0:22:23.285 --> 0:22:26.405 Yeah, it's the fact that some of the terminology that 0:22:26.445 --> 0:22:32.405 we use in society is creeping out of the scientific, 0:22:32.885 --> 0:22:38.005 psychological behavioral space and it's coming into everyday language. So 0:22:38.805 --> 0:22:41.285 you know you're wanting something clean. Oh my god, I've 0:22:41.285 --> 0:22:46.885 got OCD or traumatized, I've got PTSD from guy not 0:22:47.005 --> 0:22:52.245 calling me. It's just this language that's so hyperbolic, that's 0:22:52.325 --> 0:22:57.765 coming into our space, and it's using these really big 0:22:57.805 --> 0:23:02.525 words in an everyday capacity. And where do the people 0:23:02.525 --> 0:23:07.365 who actually have OCD PTSD, you know, where do they 0:23:07.485 --> 0:23:12.685 actually sit now? What my trauma of my child passing 0:23:12.685 --> 0:23:16.565 away and losing further children and everything else that I've 0:23:16.605 --> 0:23:21.445 gone through that sits on par in a conversation like 0:23:21.525 --> 0:23:23.885 obviously not when you're going deep, but in a conversation 0:23:24.045 --> 0:23:27.125 with someone who burnt their tongue on a tea because 0:23:27.165 --> 0:23:30.525 it was too hot. Like I just think that we've 0:23:30.565 --> 0:23:35.045 got such a wide vocabulary in the English language that 0:23:35.125 --> 0:23:39.005 we can start using some of the less dramatic words. 0:23:39.565 --> 0:23:44.925 I'm sad, I'm disappointed, I'm upset. I don't like hearing 0:23:45.005 --> 0:23:48.285 that just being careful with your language, So. 0:23:48.325 --> 0:23:50.805 Rach, have you been changing minds? You've been talking about 0:23:50.845 --> 0:23:53.445 this for quite a long time. Now. Have you seen a. 0:23:53.485 --> 0:23:57.765 Shift so my post around trigger warnings? I think I 0:23:57.925 --> 0:24:02.325 was surprised that it actually took off. I saw a 0:24:02.325 --> 0:24:07.405 lot of other fellow lost parents also talking about trigger warnings. 0:24:07.485 --> 0:24:10.885 I saw a really nice rippler, at least within my community. 0:24:11.285 --> 0:24:14.125 I think the conversation is happening I think it is 0:24:14.445 --> 0:24:15.845 developing momentum. 0:24:16.045 --> 0:24:19.365 That's beautiful. Rate. Thank you so much. And after the 0:24:19.405 --> 0:24:22.525