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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast. Mama

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Speaker 1: Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: So let me get this straight. You, as a very

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Speaker 2: privileged person who have got two healthy children as far

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Speaker 2: as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma

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Speaker 2: and pain to put a trigger warning on my child's

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Speaker 2: life to make you feel more comfortable.

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Speaker 1: From I'm Meya Friedman. And you're listening to No Filter

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Speaker 1: at a recent performance of Macbeth by a Melbourne theater company. Recently,

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Speaker 1: the program included a content warning. It's something that's become

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Speaker 1: quite common, not just in the theater, but in podcasts,

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Speaker 1: on websites and blogs on social media, and even in books.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen them. They're sometimes called trigger warnings,

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Speaker 1: and the idea behind them is that before you consume

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Speaker 1: a piece of content, you know what you're getting in

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Speaker 1: case the subject matter is upsetting to you, so that

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Speaker 1: way you can prepare yourself somehow or avoid it altogether.

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Speaker 1: I'll read you the content warning for this Macbeth performance.

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Speaker 1: It's quite long, so i'll only read part of it.

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Speaker 1: It said this production contains coarse language explicit depiction of

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Speaker 1: violence and blood, sexual references, discussion of warfare, discussion of infanticide, misogyny,

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Speaker 1: occasional drinking and smoking, references to death or dying, references

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Speaker 1: to mental illness, and depictions of ableism, occasional use of

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Speaker 1: prop weapons, loud and dynamic sound and smoke effects. That's

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Speaker 1: just the start, though. It actually goes on for about

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Speaker 1: another five hundred words or so, and under each of

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Speaker 1: those topics it lists a lot of detail about how

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Speaker 1: they're used in the performance. For example, it lists the

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Speaker 1: number of times certain swear words are used. It notes

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Speaker 1: that there are themes of misogyny and ableism, and under

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Speaker 1: each of those examples it gets very specific. For example,

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Speaker 1: under the subheading of infanticide, it says, in the closing

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Speaker 1: scenes of the work, Macduff accuses Lady Macbeth of ordering

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Speaker 1: the murder of Lady Macduff's infant. This case of infanticide

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Speaker 1: is only spoken about, not enacted on stage. Good to know.

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Speaker 1: It's not just this theater company, though, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: naming them because I don't want anyone to be attacking

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Speaker 1: them or piling onto them. You might have noticed something

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Speaker 1: called trigger creep. It's a proliferation of warnings and an

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Speaker 1: expansion of those warnings about all sorts of things that

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Speaker 1: are popping up in all sorts of places. In the

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Speaker 1: past few months, I've been keeping some notes, and I've

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Speaker 1: seen trigger warnings for some of the following things. Anxiety, depression, suicide, blood, hospitals,

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Speaker 1: self harm, sexual abuse, cancer, domestic violence, exercise, grief, racism,

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Speaker 1: mental health, war, eating disorders, transphobia, homophobia, alcohol, poverty, ableism, childlessness,

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Speaker 1: emotional abuse, divorce, diet culture, miscarriage, self harm, infertility, car accidents, meat,

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Speaker 1: sexist language, menstruation, and menopause. And that's an exhausting list,

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Speaker 1: but it's by no means exhaustive. There were many other

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Speaker 1: things as well. And look, it would be really easy

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Speaker 1: to have a rant at this point and talk about

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Speaker 1: the world going mad and people being snowflakes. But that's

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Speaker 1: not what No Filter is about. It's not a runty show,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not a rounty person. No Filter is fundamentally

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Speaker 1: a show about people and their stories, and many of

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Speaker 1: those stories cover those kinds of topics because No Filter

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Speaker 1: is about what it means to be human. And I

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Speaker 1: think that everybody involved in this debate really does come

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Speaker 1: from a good place, I do. Those in favor of

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Speaker 1: content warnings insist that it's basic decency to warn people

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Speaker 1: before they hear or read something that might upset them,

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Speaker 1: which sounds very reasonable. Those against trigger warnings insist that

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Speaker 1: it is a ridiculous form of pandering and that it's

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Speaker 1: actually counter productive, which is another interesting perspective and probably

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Speaker 1: the one that I share. But what does the science say?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what I think. What are medical professionals

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Speaker 1: who work with traumatized people advise? What a traumatized people

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Speaker 1: themselves actually say? Are trigger warnings actually helpful? Well, spoiler no,

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, But we will get to that.

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Speaker 1: What I want to explore today is what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Why do we suddenly feel that we need to warn

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Speaker 1: people about everything? And then you can decide for yourself

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Speaker 1: whether they're a good idea or not. This is a

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Speaker 1: special episode of No Filter because today I'm bringing you

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Speaker 1: two guests. In a little bit you're going to meet

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Speaker 1: Victoria Bridgeland. She's a researcher here in Australia who has

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Speaker 1: actually done the definitive global study on trigger warnings and

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Speaker 1: what she found may surprise you, but First, you're going

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Speaker 1: to meet Rachel Cassella. You may remember Rachel if you

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Speaker 1: are a p particular longtime listener of No Filter. She's

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Speaker 1: been on a previous episode of No Filter, and she's

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Speaker 1: written quite a lot on Muma Maya and she's also

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Speaker 1: a big advocate on social media. She's amazing. She's a

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Speaker 1: detective sergeant in the AFP, and she's a fearless advocate

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Speaker 1: for the memory of her little girl, Mackenzie. And I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say more now because nobody can talk

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Speaker 1: about McKenzie like Rachel does. And importantly, there is no

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Speaker 1: trigger warning or content warning on what you're about to hear,

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Speaker 1: and that's very deliberate. Here's Rachel Cassella. Rach, I want

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Speaker 1: to start by asking you about McKenzie. Tell me about her.

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Speaker 2: The love of my life, which now I feel guilty

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Speaker 2: about seeing because you know, I've got other children, but

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Speaker 2: she just changed everything for me. McKenzie's my first born.

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Speaker 2: I did have pregnancies before her, but she was my

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Speaker 2: first born, little girl. She was born eleventh of March

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen and she was just magic, pure perfection.

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Speaker 1: Did you always know you wanted to be a mum?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to your episode about

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Speaker 2: people not knowing, and I've always thought that would be

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Speaker 2: sort of the hardest part is in the space of

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Speaker 2: not knowing, because I've always known deepen my soul and

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Speaker 2: that puzzle piece when she arrived just clicked into place.

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Speaker 1: Was it hard to get pregnant with her.

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Speaker 2: No, it took a couple of months, but when I

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Speaker 2: actually knew what my ovulation window is, because I think

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Speaker 2: we spent so much time in schools turning to lessons

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Speaker 2: about how not to get pregnant that a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: including me, didn't actually know my fertile window or my

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Speaker 2: ovulation day. So once we got that, we did have

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Speaker 2: a miscarriage before McKenzie at six and a half weeks,

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Speaker 2: which was devastating at the time, but unfortunately that's now

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Speaker 2: been buried for one of a better term under a

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Speaker 2: lot of other trauma that's piled on top of it,

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Speaker 2: because when Mackenzie was ten weeks old, she was diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with a terminal condition, a genetic terminal conditioner called spinal

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Speaker 2: muscular atrophy. We lost her when she was seven months

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Speaker 2: and eleven days old.

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Speaker 1: Those first ten weeks before you knew what were.

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Speaker 2: They like like I had one lolotto. I literally remember

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Speaker 2: strutting down the street like I had this. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: A new world had been open to me. I felt

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Speaker 2: like I was getting beautiful attention, My baby was getting

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Speaker 2: beautiful attention. I felt special. This just love. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was just pure magic.

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Speaker 1: How was she diagnosed? Because there were no genetic tests

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Speaker 1: back then, you and your husband were both carriers of

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Speaker 1: a genetic condition that you had not been told about

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Speaker 1: or tested for. How did you find out?

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Speaker 2: Very quickly, very abruptly. She had a lactation consultant appointment.

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Speaker 2: They said that she wasn't moving the way that she should.

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Speaker 2: I quickly rushed her to a local GP who very

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Speaker 2: scarily sort of said, you need to go to see

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Speaker 2: a pediatrician. Immediately got into a pediatrician appointment two days later,

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Speaker 2: and within five minutes of being a that appointment, he

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Speaker 2: diagnosed her and said it was terminal. So it went

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Speaker 2: from thinking that I was on cloud nine to just

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Speaker 2: wondering how I was supposed to actually survive to the

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Speaker 2: next day. How did he deliver that news really abruptly?

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Speaker 2: I would say that there's no good way to say

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Speaker 2: that news. But I think there's a better way to

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Speaker 2: say that news. Our later interactions with who would become

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Speaker 2: McKenzie's neurologists were much more pleasant, despite the situation. But

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Speaker 2: he just said, I'm pretty sure it's spinne, a muscular atrophy,

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Speaker 2: and we went, well, what is that? And he said

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Speaker 2: it's terminal. I froze and shut down initially, and then

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Speaker 2: after a couple of minutes, I started like sort of

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Speaker 2: getting really upset and he told me to calm down, missy,

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Speaker 2: and that's just burnt in my head, all right. We

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Speaker 2: were made to pay a big bill as we were

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Speaker 2: leaving his office, and we left back home. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: until later that we sort of knew we should have

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Speaker 2: been taken straight down to Sydney Children's Hospital to meet

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Speaker 2: with the neurologists, to not have been left to leave

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Speaker 2: that appointment that way.

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Speaker 1: Was anyone able to tell you what the future held

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Speaker 1: for McKenzie.

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Speaker 2: The neurologist was able to talk to us. We had

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Speaker 2: the first initial discussion as to whether to put her

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Speaker 2: on an experimental trial drug, and then we were told,

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Speaker 2: once we made the decision, that that was not the

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Speaker 2: right way for us and for her, based on a

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Speaker 2: whole number of levels. We were told she would likely

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Speaker 2: either get a cold and go in and out of

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Speaker 2: hospital for a lot of her life until she just

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Speaker 2: got so weak she couldn't fight it. Or we got

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Speaker 2: told that we would wake up one morning and she

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Speaker 2: would just die in her bascinet when we looked in there.

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Speaker 1: How long did you have with her?

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Speaker 2: So we had seven months and eleven days, I mean

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Speaker 2: obviously a near a few months after her diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Rach, I can't even begin. And now everyone

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Speaker 1: says to you, I know, how do you get out

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Speaker 1: of bed? How do you do it? How do you live?

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Speaker 1: Do you have an answer to that?

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Speaker 2: You've got no choice? I mean, I suppose you do

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Speaker 2: have a choice. There are some people who don't come

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Speaker 2: through it, and they do take their own life. There

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Speaker 2: were certainly times where I wished myself to not be here.

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Speaker 2: After she was diagnosed, we knew that we had to

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Speaker 2: give her everything. So she was our reason of continuing

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Speaker 2: and getting out of bed every day until she passed away.

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Speaker 2: And then after that all of the days sort of

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Speaker 2: become a blur of pain, and then it became what

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Speaker 2: are we going to do for her to celebrate her life?

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Speaker 2: To help others not go through the same thing. Then

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Speaker 2: it was how we're going to get her siblings, and

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Speaker 2: so there was always something to fight for, and I

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Speaker 2: put everything I had into those Whether that was healthy always,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was my way of coping.

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Speaker 1: In terms of trauma, it's hard to think of something

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Speaker 1: more traumatic and ongoing than what you experienced. Are there

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Speaker 1: certain things that trigger a response in your body, certain

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Speaker 1: things that abruptly distress you?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean there's some kind of obvious ones. I

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Speaker 2: don't think when it comes to triggers, they're not usually

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Speaker 2: obvious for people, even though society wants to assume that

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Speaker 2: they are. They're not. They're very specific and personalized. I mean,

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Speaker 2: my most generic, I suppose, was the sound of ambulances

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Speaker 2: because McKenzie stopped breathing at home in my arms, and

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Speaker 2: we rush our lights and sirens in an ambulance to

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Speaker 2: Sidney Children's Hospital and I just under in my lap

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Speaker 2: and I was just singing Twinkle Twinkle Star in her

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Speaker 2: ear as we drove. And so the sound of ambulances

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Speaker 2: it's not as prevalent a trigger anymore because I have

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Speaker 2: been exposed to it. You don't get a warning the

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Speaker 2: ambulances are around. I still have a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a because I know that on the end of that

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Speaker 2: ambulance is a family like mine. But my triggers are

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Speaker 2: for a while, obviously it was pregnancy announcements. I still

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Speaker 2: get triggered by large families. She is strange. I get

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Speaker 2: really triggered by positive thinking or magical thinking or manifestation.

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Speaker 2: I had a trigger the other day, which is quite

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Speaker 2: strange by Courtney Kardashian.

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Speaker 1: What did she do?

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Speaker 2: So she had her recent son had surgery in utero,

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Speaker 2: and the conversation with her was it was scary, but

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Speaker 2: I knew that if I just thought positively and if

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Speaker 2: I prayed to God, then everything would be okay. And

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Speaker 2: once I started thinking positively, the lung stopped filling up

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Speaker 2: with fluids. So that's really triggering for a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: especially in the baby loss community, because it's like or

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Speaker 2: any type of brief or losses like I did positive thinking.

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Speaker 2: I did everything you could possibly imagine for McKenzie to

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Speaker 2: wish and pray and positively make her better. But then

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Speaker 2: I did nine rounds of IVF. I lost another two

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Speaker 2: babies at sixteen weeks pregnant, that I had to walk

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Speaker 2: into the hospital and say goodbye to And I did everything.

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Speaker 2: I have done, soul work, inesiology, I have done negative

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Speaker 2: thinking in the hope that it would stop me from falling.

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Speaker 2: So far, I've written lists, I've done research. There is

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Speaker 2: not anything that I haven't done. And to hear someone say, well,

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Speaker 2: I prayed right or I did the right positive thinking,

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Speaker 2: and that's what happens, like, I understand the space for it,

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Speaker 2: but I find it really triggering.

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Speaker 1: When you say triggering, can you explain what happens in

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Speaker 1: your body and in your mind?

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Speaker 2: My heart starts racing, I get really sweaty hands. My

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Speaker 2: brain feels like it's a tornado. I can't catch my thought.

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Speaker 2: It just goes around and around, and then the conversation

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Speaker 2: that I have in my head won't stop for hours.

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Speaker 1: After the break. Why Rachel, who gets triggered all the time,

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Speaker 1: still doesn't want trigger warnings? So what have you learned

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Speaker 1: is the best way to cope or a way to cope?

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Speaker 1: How do you cope with that? Because obviously you want

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Speaker 1: to avoid those triggers, but how do you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't avoid the triggers because they're everywhere, you know,

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Speaker 2: hearing about children who have passed away, or any type

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Speaker 2: of grief that doesn't trigger me. It makes me feel

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Speaker 2: comforted in some ways, and that there are other people

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Speaker 2: who are out there who know how I feel. It

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Speaker 2: makes me sad that someone else knows that pain. Usually,

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Speaker 2: if it's someone on Instagram, for instance, I will usually

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Speaker 2: write to them in their DMS and say that I'm

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Speaker 2: here if they are new to this world of grief.

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Speaker 2: But I don't avoid them because the things that trigger

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Speaker 2: me are not things that come with trigger warnings. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: I'll read it and I will let my body go

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Speaker 2: through what it needs to go through because it's unavoidable.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I will close an article or close something, but

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Speaker 2: I know that that means that that's something that I

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Speaker 2: need to work on. A trigger is obviously it's like

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Speaker 2: a little warning sign of Okay, there's something that's agitated there.

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Speaker 2: I'm probably going to have to work on that.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a fantastic piece first on your Instagram? What

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Speaker 1: led to that post on your Instagram?

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Speaker 2: So my Instagram is I created that space as a

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Speaker 2: way of sharing Mackenzie. I had no idea that it

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Speaker 2: was going to turn into the space that it is now,

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Speaker 2: but I have been trying so hard for it to

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Speaker 2: still remain in my space. It's my space, whether people

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Speaker 2: want to follow me or not. A lot of the

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Speaker 2: people who follow me have experienced some kinds of child

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Speaker 2: loss or loss, but I'm also really amazed that there's

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Speaker 2: also a lot of people who have an experienced loss

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Speaker 2: and they're just here to learn, which I love. I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of people who reach out to me

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Speaker 2: and say, my friend just had a stillborn and thanks

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Speaker 2: to you, I knew the right thing or the wrong

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Speaker 2: thing to say, so that is amazing. But occasionally someone

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Speaker 2: will come across my page, as they do on the internet,

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Speaker 2: and will have an opinion, and most of the time

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Speaker 2: I can block it out. But I remember I got

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Speaker 2: contacted by someone who Instagram had fed me to her

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Speaker 2: as a suggested page. She was pregnant with her second,

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Speaker 2: and she reached out to me to say, you should

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Speaker 2: put a trigger warning on your page. And I engaged

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Speaker 2: in conversation with her and I said, can you explain

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Speaker 2: to me why you think that, And she said, I'm

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Speaker 2: pregnant with my second and hearing about the possibility or

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Speaker 2: your life makes me stressed. And I'm like, so, let

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Speaker 2: me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person

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Speaker 2: who have got two healthy children as far as you know,

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Speaker 2: want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain, to

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Speaker 2: put a trigger warning on my child's life to make

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Speaker 2: you feel more comfortable. And that's what kicked off me

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Speaker 2: writing that post.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting your choice of words there. You say, put

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Speaker 1: a trigger warning on my child's life. That's exactly what

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Speaker 1: it is, isn't it. It's saying this might be so

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Speaker 1: upsetting to you, who never knew McKenzie and who isn't

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Speaker 1: her mother or her father, that I need to put

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Speaker 1: your feelings before my own and before honoring my daughter.

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Speaker 2: It's a way for people to curate their life because

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Speaker 2: I would say that ninety ninety percent of the time

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Speaker 2: the people who want the trigger warning haven't experienced that trauma,

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Speaker 2: because most of the people, at least in the child

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Speaker 2: lost community, do not want trigger warnings on their children.

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Speaker 2: We didn't get a warning that this was going to

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Speaker 2: happen to us, and we want to share our child

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Speaker 2: and to say put a trigger warning, it's like you're

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Speaker 2: telling me that my life is so bad and it

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Speaker 2: makes you uncomfortable that this exists in the world. So

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Speaker 2: you want to cover me up so you can curate

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Speaker 2: your world on what's positive in your mind, whereas I

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Speaker 2: see my daughter as positive, Like, yes, extreme pain, but

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Speaker 2: the gifts that she has given me are endless. She's

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Speaker 2: changed me for the better.

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Speaker 1: You said something really interesting in the piece you wrote

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Speaker 1: about this for Mamma Maya. You said, trigger warnings aren't

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Speaker 1: for people who've experienced things. They're for people who are

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Speaker 1: scared of experiencing those things. Because they're so often claimed

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Speaker 1: to be protective of the people who have experienced trauma,

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Speaker 1: and maybe in some cases they are. Maybe there are

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Speaker 1: some people who don't want to read about a particular

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Speaker 1: traumatic experience that they've gone through, but that's pretty subjective,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I still completely agree that they're not for the people

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Speaker 2: who have experienced the trauma for they're for the people

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Speaker 2: who are scared to experience the trauma and for those

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Speaker 2: who have had the trauma. I do feel bad for

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Speaker 2: any triggering moments, but studies have shown that one of

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Speaker 2: the best ways to be never going to get over

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Speaker 2: but one of the best ways to process what you've

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Speaker 2: gone through is to have of exposures. I really worry

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Speaker 2: about the curation of life and the feeling that we

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Speaker 2: need to start putting triggers on everything because you know,

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Speaker 2: where does it end? Because what triggers me is something

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Speaker 2: that I would never put someone like in the child

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Speaker 2: loss community, a lot of pregnancy announcements are triggering, And

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Speaker 2: now I'm starting to see pregnancy announcements with trigger warnings

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Speaker 2: for the people who are in the infertility space, and

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Speaker 2: it's like, no, I don't agree with trigger warnings on

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Speaker 2: that either, because that's someone's joy. You know. I just

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Speaker 2: don't believe in trigger warnings at all. I think in

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Speaker 2: some cases they might allow someone to avoid an article

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Speaker 2: for a short period of time, but in the long term,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to do that person any good for

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Speaker 2: everyone else. It's going to be negative. It's going to,

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Speaker 2: I guess, make us weak. It's not going to prepare

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Speaker 2: us for life.

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Speaker 1: So your philosophy is that we have responsibility for our

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Speaker 1: own emotions and our own mental health and we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be outsourcing that to the Internet to protect us with

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Speaker 1: trigger warnings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's very hard. I feel for people

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Speaker 2: with mental health issues. I am one of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have a lot of diagnoses and on

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Speaker 2: the medication, and I do take responsibility for what I consume.

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Speaker 2: If I'm not in the right head space, then maybe

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Speaker 2: going on the internet's not the place for me. I

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Speaker 2: know that that can seem a bit harsh, and I

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Speaker 2: really appreciate that society these days are more inclusive of

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Speaker 2: people with mental health issues. I really appreciate that. Originally

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Speaker 2: the thought behind it was in the right space, but

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Speaker 2: the research shows that it doesn't work, and I just

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Speaker 2: think that they're doing more harm than goods, So it's

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Speaker 2: not for other people to protect me.

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Speaker 1: You've also spoken and written about trauma creep, because of course,

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Speaker 1: trigger warnings are meant to be for people who have

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Speaker 1: experienced trauma to avoid being retraumatized. The question of who's

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Speaker 1: trauma tized and what trauma is ties into this, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain what trauma creep is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the fact that some of the terminology that

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Speaker 2: we use in society is creeping out of the scientific,

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Speaker 2: psychological behavioral space and it's coming into everyday language. So

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Speaker 2: you know you're wanting something clean. Oh my god, I've

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Speaker 2: got OCD or traumatized, I've got PTSD from guy not

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Speaker 2: calling me. It's just this language that's so hyperbolic, that's

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Speaker 2: coming into our space, and it's using these really big

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Speaker 2: words in an everyday capacity. And where do the people

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Speaker 2: who actually have OCD PTSD, you know, where do they

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Speaker 2: actually sit now? What my trauma of my child passing

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Speaker 2: away and losing further children and everything else that I've

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Speaker 2: gone through that sits on par in a conversation like

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Speaker 2: obviously not when you're going deep, but in a conversation

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Speaker 2: with someone who burnt their tongue on a tea because

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Speaker 2: it was too hot. Like I just think that we've

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Speaker 2: got such a wide vocabulary in the English language that

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Speaker 2: we can start using some of the less dramatic words.

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Speaker 2: I'm sad, I'm disappointed, I'm upset. I don't like hearing

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Speaker 2: that just being careful with your language, So.

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Speaker 1: Rach, have you been changing minds? You've been talking about

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Speaker 1: this for quite a long time. Now. Have you seen a.

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Speaker 2: Shift so my post around trigger warnings? I think I

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Speaker 2: was surprised that it actually took off. I saw a

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Speaker 2: lot of other fellow lost parents also talking about trigger warnings.

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Speaker 2: I saw a really nice rippler, at least within my community.

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Speaker 2: I think the conversation is happening I think it is

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Speaker 2: developing momentum.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Rate. Thank you so much. And after the

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Speaker 1: break you're going to hear from Victoria Bridgeland, the Australian

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Speaker 1: academic whose research into trigger warnings has changed the way

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Speaker 1: people all over the world are thinking about them. Can

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Speaker 1: you give us your working definition of the trigger warning?

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Speaker 3: So there's all kinds of warnings you can get for

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Speaker 3: different things. Obviously you can get those film warnings. You

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Speaker 3: can get warnings for like content containing indigenous persons, So

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Speaker 3: we're not talking about any of those kind of warnings,

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Speaker 3: although I think film warnings are probably like an early ancestor.

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Speaker 3: A true trigger warning is something that warns you about

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Speaker 3: something that might be potentially distressing, and that's probably going

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Speaker 3: to be potentially distressing because of something that's happened to

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Speaker 3: you in the past or present, So maybe a traumatic

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Speaker 3: event or like a mental health related issue could be depression,

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Speaker 3: anxiety or that kind of So it's really just warning

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Speaker 3: you about upcoming negative content that's probably related to you

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Speaker 3: in some personal way, rather than just generally negative content.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between a trigger warning and a content warning?

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Speaker 3: They're sort of one and the same thing. Every now

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Speaker 3: and then trigger warnings will go through a rebrand because

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Speaker 3: they are starting to get more heat against them because

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Speaker 3: of the evidence coming out and people say, I don't

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Speaker 3: think they work, and so people go, oh, we're not

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Speaker 3: using a trigger warning, and we'll now we're using a

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Speaker 3: content warning. But it's really the same thing repackaged. I've

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Speaker 3: even seen people say that the term trigger is too

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Speaker 3: triggering because it evokes gun imagery, and so people are

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Speaker 3: saying we shouldn't use that term at all because it's violent,

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Speaker 3: and so maybe we should use like can notes or

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Speaker 3: like I don't know, other counting. But really it's doing

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Speaker 3: the same thing. If the purpose of it is to

432
00:25:51,925 --> 00:25:55,165
Speaker 3: warn people about a mental health related thing or a trauma,

433
00:25:55,205 --> 00:25:57,525
Speaker 3: which is what they are for, then it's a triger warning.

434
00:25:57,765 --> 00:25:59,805
Speaker 3: So that's sort of how I define it. It's like

435
00:25:59,845 --> 00:26:02,525
Speaker 3: what they're used for rather than what they are because

436
00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:05,085
Speaker 3: they come in all different forms and shapes and things.

437
00:26:05,365 --> 00:26:06,605
Speaker 1: So what does the science say?

438
00:26:06,965 --> 00:26:09,885
Speaker 3: Pretty extensive number of studies now, I think we've got

439
00:26:09,925 --> 00:26:12,125
Speaker 3: about ten to fifteen. There's probably a few more that

440
00:26:12,165 --> 00:26:15,845
Speaker 3: have come out since WIT did our meta analysis on them. Basically,

441
00:26:16,125 --> 00:26:18,325
Speaker 3: they don't only do much of anything except for me,

442
00:26:18,565 --> 00:26:20,725
Speaker 3: people feel anxious when they first see them. So people

443
00:26:20,765 --> 00:26:23,205
Speaker 3: see a trigger warning, they feel a little bit anxious

444
00:26:23,245 --> 00:26:26,965
Speaker 3: about what's coming up, sort of like apprehension or anticipatory anxiety,

445
00:26:27,485 --> 00:26:30,085
Speaker 3: not very large anxiety, but just like a small amount of,

446
00:26:30,085 --> 00:26:33,325
Speaker 3: you know, something, negatives coming. When people see the content

447
00:26:33,405 --> 00:26:36,885
Speaker 3: after that, it doesn't reduce any negative feelings towards it,

448
00:26:37,445 --> 00:26:39,125
Speaker 3: So it doesn't seem to be doing any of that

449
00:26:39,205 --> 00:26:42,605
Speaker 3: emotional preparation. I can't find any evidence of that at all,

450
00:26:42,765 --> 00:26:46,365
Speaker 3: even for people like in target groups that people would say, Okay,

451
00:26:46,365 --> 00:26:48,725
Speaker 3: well you've just looked at the general population, but we've

452
00:26:48,765 --> 00:26:51,045
Speaker 3: also looked at trauma survivors. We've also looked a people

453
00:26:51,045 --> 00:26:53,405
Speaker 3: with depression. We've also looked to people with anxiety, and

454
00:26:53,445 --> 00:26:55,645
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to help any of these people. Across

455
00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:58,045
Speaker 3: the board, everyone just feels the same when they see

456
00:26:58,085 --> 00:27:01,405
Speaker 3: the content. And as for avoidance, that is probably more

457
00:27:01,445 --> 00:27:04,925
Speaker 3: of a weird Iceberg scenario where there's so much weird

458
00:27:04,925 --> 00:27:07,645
Speaker 3: stuff going on with avoidance with tree warnings or just

459
00:27:07,685 --> 00:27:10,965
Speaker 3: avoidance of negative stuff in general. So I guess people

460
00:27:10,965 --> 00:27:14,885
Speaker 3: would assume that humans are quite logical beings that if

461
00:27:14,965 --> 00:27:16,845
Speaker 3: you see something negative that you don't want to see,

462
00:27:16,925 --> 00:27:19,405
Speaker 3: you should avoid it. But what we find is humans

463
00:27:19,445 --> 00:27:23,085
Speaker 3: actually have this huge propensity towards small butid curiosity, and

464
00:27:23,165 --> 00:27:25,925
Speaker 3: so even though people probably know something's going to make

465
00:27:25,965 --> 00:27:27,965
Speaker 3: them upset, people want to look at it anyway. And

466
00:27:28,005 --> 00:27:30,245
Speaker 3: so in a lot of my studies, I found like

467
00:27:30,285 --> 00:27:33,805
Speaker 3: such a tiny avoidance rate of anything negative. Even when

468
00:27:34,165 --> 00:27:38,365
Speaker 3: we're like continually exposing people to the nastiest photos in

469
00:27:38,405 --> 00:27:40,845
Speaker 3: our photo sets, which are quite traumatic photos of actual

470
00:27:40,885 --> 00:27:43,565
Speaker 3: like dead bodies and things. You can keep showing people

471
00:27:43,685 --> 00:27:45,325
Speaker 3: them and say to them you don't have to see them,

472
00:27:45,325 --> 00:27:47,645
Speaker 3: because we'll have a screen on them, like those Instagram

473
00:27:47,725 --> 00:27:50,125
Speaker 3: blurred warning screens, and we'll say you don't have to

474
00:27:50,205 --> 00:27:51,765
Speaker 3: uncover this if you don't want to go to the

475
00:27:51,765 --> 00:27:54,485
Speaker 3: next photo. People will just keep uncovering them again and

476
00:27:54,525 --> 00:27:56,845
Speaker 3: again and again. Most of our studies we found like

477
00:27:56,885 --> 00:28:00,645
Speaker 3: fifty percent of people will just uncover every single negative

478
00:28:00,645 --> 00:28:03,565
Speaker 3: photo that we've shown them, which is quite a high number.

479
00:28:03,605 --> 00:28:06,725
Speaker 3: And then as for like the first few photos, about

480
00:28:06,925 --> 00:28:10,085
Speaker 3: eighty to ninety percent of people will instantly cover that photo.

481
00:28:10,125 --> 00:28:11,685
Speaker 3: So there is a drop off of like people that

482
00:28:11,765 --> 00:28:13,445
Speaker 3: do see the negative thing and go okay, maybe I

483
00:28:13,445 --> 00:28:15,885
Speaker 3: don't want to look at anymore, but most people are

484
00:28:16,285 --> 00:28:18,365
Speaker 3: just keep wanting to look at stuff. Victoria.

485
00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:21,925
Speaker 1: What's the difference between that, Because people could argue, well,

486
00:28:21,965 --> 00:28:25,125
Speaker 1: you've given them a choice right, as opposed to the

487
00:28:25,165 --> 00:28:30,965
Speaker 1: physiological reaction of when that image or those words might

488
00:28:31,045 --> 00:28:33,565
Speaker 1: just be put in front of me without you telling

489
00:28:33,605 --> 00:28:36,605
Speaker 1: me that it might distress me or that it's graphic.

490
00:28:37,125 --> 00:28:39,605
Speaker 3: I don't think it would make much of a difference

491
00:28:39,645 --> 00:28:43,445
Speaker 3: because I just don't think unless you're specifically instructing somebody

492
00:28:43,685 --> 00:28:46,725
Speaker 3: on how to reduce that reaction, I don't think the

493
00:28:46,765 --> 00:28:49,645
Speaker 3: Triger warnings doing anything at all. There's no way to

494
00:28:49,725 --> 00:28:53,005
Speaker 3: emotionally inoculate yourself just using a language from trigger warnings,

495
00:28:53,085 --> 00:28:55,965
Speaker 3: unless you're, like maybe if you've been going through like

496
00:28:56,085 --> 00:29:00,445
Speaker 3: years of therapy or you know about certain emotion regulation techniques,

497
00:29:00,805 --> 00:29:04,165
Speaker 3: maybe you can. But it's a really like abstracto morphous

498
00:29:04,245 --> 00:29:07,285
Speaker 3: thing to ask somebody to like stop themselves having a

499
00:29:07,285 --> 00:29:10,765
Speaker 3: reaction towards something, or you don't know the technique. So

500
00:29:11,165 --> 00:29:13,845
Speaker 3: usually when something's negative, it's got something unique and weird

501
00:29:13,885 --> 00:29:16,845
Speaker 3: about it, it's socially devient about it, and so people

502
00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:19,565
Speaker 3: are very attractive to that to gain that information and

503
00:29:19,645 --> 00:29:22,205
Speaker 3: maybe learn something about how to protect themselves, or learn

504
00:29:22,245 --> 00:29:25,485
Speaker 3: something about the world and how to be safe maybe

505
00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:27,845
Speaker 3: or avoid threads. So we do have, I think, this

506
00:29:27,885 --> 00:29:30,125
Speaker 3: sort of thing in us to sort of seek things.

507
00:29:30,525 --> 00:29:33,285
Speaker 3: But what's even more, I guess disturbing about it is

508
00:29:34,045 --> 00:29:36,645
Speaker 3: a lot of disorders as well have this propensity. So

509
00:29:36,685 --> 00:29:40,325
Speaker 3: we would think somebody that's feeling depressed would be motivated

510
00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:43,365
Speaker 3: to repair their mood, But what we actually find is

511
00:29:43,405 --> 00:29:47,085
Speaker 3: that depressed people often because feeling depressed and feeling sad

512
00:29:47,165 --> 00:29:49,565
Speaker 3: is a familiar mood state, they want to stay in

513
00:29:49,605 --> 00:29:52,645
Speaker 3: that mood and they want to like purposely seek content

514
00:29:52,685 --> 00:29:54,885
Speaker 3: that makes them feel even more depressed, and then they

515
00:29:54,965 --> 00:29:56,725
Speaker 3: go down these sort of Internet rabbit holes and the

516
00:29:56,925 --> 00:29:58,965
Speaker 3: algorithm feeds it and all that kind of stuff. It's

517
00:29:59,045 --> 00:30:00,525
Speaker 3: kind of like when you're sad and you listen to

518
00:30:00,605 --> 00:30:02,845
Speaker 3: a sad playlist, it's like that feeling.

519
00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:05,325
Speaker 1: You want to see it mirrored. And that really gets

520
00:30:05,405 --> 00:30:08,605
Speaker 1: to the heart of what this is about, doesn't it.

521
00:30:08,605 --> 00:30:13,125
Speaker 1: It's this dejective nature of how trigger warnings are used

522
00:30:13,285 --> 00:30:16,245
Speaker 1: and what they're meant to do versus what they do

523
00:30:16,245 --> 00:30:20,525
Speaker 1: do and who benefits from them and who suffers because

524
00:30:20,565 --> 00:30:24,045
Speaker 1: of them. That's the point, isn't it That you can't

525
00:30:24,725 --> 00:30:28,845
Speaker 1: take into account how someone will use a piece of information,

526
00:30:29,245 --> 00:30:32,645
Speaker 1: So even warning someone about that information can have a

527
00:30:32,685 --> 00:30:34,165
Speaker 1: detrimental effect on them.

528
00:30:34,525 --> 00:30:36,845
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, And I think it's really that

529
00:30:37,245 --> 00:30:40,725
Speaker 3: individual difference thing as well as because no matter how

530
00:30:40,765 --> 00:30:43,485
Speaker 3: much evidence we have that like for most people, they

531
00:30:43,485 --> 00:30:45,645
Speaker 3: don't work. And when I mean most people, I mean

532
00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:49,405
Speaker 3: general population, people with different disorders we've screened for and

533
00:30:49,445 --> 00:30:51,725
Speaker 3: things like that, there'll be that one person that will

534
00:30:51,765 --> 00:30:53,325
Speaker 3: be like, no, but they help me, and then so

535
00:30:53,365 --> 00:30:55,925
Speaker 3: you can. You know, there's always these different arguments that

536
00:30:55,925 --> 00:30:57,725
Speaker 3: will be brought up about how they help will harm.

537
00:30:57,805 --> 00:31:00,925
Speaker 3: But I think the biggest danger though in triger warnings

538
00:31:00,965 --> 00:31:04,725
Speaker 3: is assuming that they're doing great benefit to anybody. No

539
00:31:04,765 --> 00:31:06,605
Speaker 3: matter how you slice it, I just think they're not

540
00:31:06,725 --> 00:31:10,005
Speaker 3: doing much at all of anything. They're not they're definitely

541
00:31:10,045 --> 00:31:12,525
Speaker 3: not helping, and there's some evidence that they're probably doing

542
00:31:12,525 --> 00:31:15,845
Speaker 3: some harm. But it's just really bad to assume that

543
00:31:16,085 --> 00:31:18,045
Speaker 3: as long as you slap a trigger warning on any

544
00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:21,525
Speaker 3: piece of media, you're protecting people. Or you know, if

545
00:31:21,525 --> 00:31:24,125
Speaker 3: a professor just puts a trigger warning on their class material,

546
00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:25,925
Speaker 3: but doesn't think about how the class will receive it

547
00:31:26,045 --> 00:31:28,685
Speaker 3: or for any support, or it's like a band aid

548
00:31:28,765 --> 00:31:31,045
Speaker 3: to sort of slap on things and try and fix

549
00:31:31,245 --> 00:31:34,565
Speaker 3: this mental health crisis that we're always talking about. Because

550
00:31:34,565 --> 00:31:37,165
Speaker 3: it's really easy and it's cheap, you know, for social

551
00:31:37,205 --> 00:31:38,925
Speaker 3: media websites, so I can just put it on there

552
00:31:38,925 --> 00:31:40,365
Speaker 3: and I have to do anything else, I have to

553
00:31:40,365 --> 00:31:43,485
Speaker 3: invest anything in anything. It seems like a really good solution,

554
00:31:43,565 --> 00:31:45,885
Speaker 3: but it just doesn't do anything. It doesn't help anybody.

555
00:31:46,765 --> 00:31:49,685
Speaker 1: One thing I've noticed over the years is that when

556
00:31:49,725 --> 00:31:51,845
Speaker 1: we're criticized at mum and Mea for not putting a

557
00:31:51,885 --> 00:31:55,405
Speaker 1: trigger warning on something, because a while ago I noticed

558
00:31:55,445 --> 00:31:58,805
Speaker 1: that there had been trigger creep on Muma Mea articles

559
00:31:58,845 --> 00:32:03,085
Speaker 1: and Muma Mea podcasts, and I asked the team about

560
00:32:03,245 --> 00:32:07,605
Speaker 1: why that was, and they said that we would often

561
00:32:07,765 --> 00:32:11,325
Speaker 1: get complaints, not from lot of people, but the people

562
00:32:11,325 --> 00:32:14,605
Speaker 1: who did complain would complain very loudly and be very

563
00:32:14,605 --> 00:32:18,285
Speaker 1: insistent that trigger warnings were required and that we should

564
00:32:18,285 --> 00:32:21,125
Speaker 1: have put a trigger warning on this podcast or on

565
00:32:21,165 --> 00:32:24,885
Speaker 1: that piece of content. Often when it might just be

566
00:32:25,005 --> 00:32:28,165
Speaker 1: someone mentioning that they had a miscarriage or that they

567
00:32:28,205 --> 00:32:31,285
Speaker 1: had experienced domestic violence and not going into any detail,

568
00:32:31,365 --> 00:32:33,645
Speaker 1: and maybe that in many cases that wasn't even the

569
00:32:33,645 --> 00:32:35,965
Speaker 1: main part of the story. It just happened to be,

570
00:32:36,205 --> 00:32:39,245
Speaker 1: maybe even just those words that they mentioned. And what

571
00:32:39,325 --> 00:32:42,245
Speaker 1: I noticed when talking to the team is that the

572
00:32:42,325 --> 00:32:47,365
Speaker 1: people who complained were almost never the people who'd actually

573
00:32:47,405 --> 00:32:52,605
Speaker 1: experienced those things. It's usually the complainers, and the polices

574
00:32:52,765 --> 00:32:56,085
Speaker 1: of trigger warnings and content warnings are the people who've

575
00:32:56,125 --> 00:33:00,205
Speaker 1: decided it's their job to protect whoever they perceived might

576
00:33:00,325 --> 00:33:03,925
Speaker 1: be well, you know, triggered. And again, I want to

577
00:33:03,925 --> 00:33:08,845
Speaker 1: believe that they are well intentioned, but as you've heard,

578
00:33:08,925 --> 00:33:12,365
Speaker 1: I've always just had a really deep, visceral reaction against

579
00:33:12,485 --> 00:33:15,685
Speaker 1: trigger warnings. And on a show like this on No Filter,

580
00:33:16,245 --> 00:33:19,365
Speaker 1: we hear from people who've lived through some really heavy things,

581
00:33:19,725 --> 00:33:24,205
Speaker 1: from real survivors of abuse and violence, of addiction, of racism,

582
00:33:24,685 --> 00:33:27,325
Speaker 1: and a lot of trauma. People like Rachel, people who've

583
00:33:27,325 --> 00:33:32,285
Speaker 1: suffered unimaginable loss and experience things that most of us

584
00:33:32,685 --> 00:33:36,165
Speaker 1: hopefully will never experience, and they've come out on the

585
00:33:36,165 --> 00:33:39,645
Speaker 1: other side with a really important story to tell. And

586
00:33:39,725 --> 00:33:42,565
Speaker 1: I think, as Rachel does, that putting a trigger warning

587
00:33:42,565 --> 00:33:45,685
Speaker 1: on their stories, I don't know. I think it cheapens

588
00:33:45,725 --> 00:33:48,165
Speaker 1: them in a way, and I think it patronizes you,

589
00:33:48,565 --> 00:33:52,525
Speaker 1: the listener, who I really believe has the resilience and

590
00:33:52,565 --> 00:33:55,845
Speaker 1: the ability to choose what you want to consume and

591
00:33:55,925 --> 00:34:00,285
Speaker 1: avoid what you don't. And I know personally there are

592
00:34:00,325 --> 00:34:04,165
Speaker 1: several things, actually many things that trigger me, and none

593
00:34:04,205 --> 00:34:07,405
Speaker 1: of them would be covered by trigger warnings in the

594
00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:11,965
Speaker 1: way that they're understood. What triggers upsetting or uncomfortable feelings

595
00:34:12,045 --> 00:34:14,445
Speaker 1: is totally unique to each of us, right, and it

596
00:34:14,525 --> 00:34:17,805
Speaker 1: must be the responsibility, in my opinion, of each of

597
00:34:17,885 --> 00:34:21,365
Speaker 1: us to manage because the alternative to that is to

598
00:34:21,405 --> 00:34:24,965
Speaker 1: outsource your mental well being to the internet. And is

599
00:34:24,965 --> 00:34:27,725
Speaker 1: that something that we really want to do rely on

600
00:34:27,765 --> 00:34:32,005
Speaker 1: the outside world to manage our feelings. The outside world

601
00:34:32,085 --> 00:34:34,965
Speaker 1: is not our helicopter, and that sounds like a really

602
00:34:35,085 --> 00:34:39,445
Speaker 1: terrible idea to me. So what Rachel's story and Victoria's

603
00:34:39,485 --> 00:34:43,205
Speaker 1: research really just validate for me is that we have

604
00:34:43,285 --> 00:34:45,365
Speaker 1: to be our own gatekeepers when it comes to how

605
00:34:45,365 --> 00:34:48,525
Speaker 1: we navigate the world, whether it's our screens and our phones,

606
00:34:48,965 --> 00:34:52,445
Speaker 1: or books and movies, or what's taught in a classroom,

607
00:34:52,725 --> 00:34:54,805
Speaker 1: and of course the stories that we bring you here

608
00:34:54,845 --> 00:34:58,045
Speaker 1: at No Filter and at Muma Maya. Now I still

609
00:34:58,045 --> 00:35:00,205
Speaker 1: wrestle with this. Sometimes it's not black and white. If

610
00:35:00,245 --> 00:35:04,045
Speaker 1: you listen to our episode with dassy Erlick a few

611
00:35:04,085 --> 00:35:08,405
Speaker 1: weeks ago, she suffered horrendous abuse of a really quite

612
00:35:08,485 --> 00:35:10,885
Speaker 1: graphic nature, and so I did in the end at

613
00:35:10,925 --> 00:35:13,325
Speaker 1: a content warning because you described some of that abuse.

614
00:35:14,245 --> 00:35:16,525
Speaker 1: And sometimes there might be a little ears in the

615
00:35:16,725 --> 00:35:19,765
Speaker 1: car with you, or you might be listening in a

616
00:35:19,805 --> 00:35:22,765
Speaker 1: public place, like in your kitchen while you're cooking, and

617
00:35:22,805 --> 00:35:26,645
Speaker 1: there's other people around. So I think it's important also

618
00:35:26,805 --> 00:35:28,885
Speaker 1: that we provide resources for people who are triggered by

619
00:35:28,925 --> 00:35:31,405
Speaker 1: the content in our stories. And we're very careful to

620
00:35:31,445 --> 00:35:34,165
Speaker 1: always provide links to be on Blue or Lifeline or

621
00:35:34,205 --> 00:35:38,365
Speaker 1: other specialized organizations, and we've done that today for anyone

622
00:35:38,485 --> 00:35:41,525
Speaker 1: who needs a bit of extra support after listening to

623
00:35:41,645 --> 00:35:45,485
Speaker 1: Rachel's story. But a big, bright, flashing red trigger warning

624
00:35:45,565 --> 00:35:48,285
Speaker 1: scaring people away before they can make up their own mind,

625
00:35:49,005 --> 00:35:51,005
Speaker 1: you're not going to find that on No Filter. But

626
00:35:51,045 --> 00:35:52,925
Speaker 1: I want to know what you think. I have strong

627
00:35:52,965 --> 00:35:56,765
Speaker 1: opinions loosely held, and I'm really curious to hear from you.

628
00:35:56,765 --> 00:35:59,445
Speaker 1: You are the ones I'm thinking about when I think

629
00:35:59,445 --> 00:36:02,525
Speaker 1: about trigger warnings on this show, So let me know.

630
00:36:03,045 --> 00:36:05,965
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll share some of your feedback in one of

631
00:36:06,005 --> 00:36:08,885
Speaker 1: my Insta bubbles on my Instagram account at mea Friedman,

632
00:36:09,445 --> 00:36:12,365
Speaker 1: or in my Babbel newsletter which you have to sign

633
00:36:12,405 --> 00:36:14,725
Speaker 1: up for but it comes free to your inbox. Will

634
00:36:14,725 --> 00:36:16,485
Speaker 1: pop a link to that in the show notes as well.

635
00:36:17,365 --> 00:36:20,085
Speaker 1: So there you are trigger warnings, Love them, payd them,

636
00:36:20,285 --> 00:36:22,925
Speaker 1: have a think. Are you triggered by trigger warnings? Share

637
00:36:22,965 --> 00:36:25,045
Speaker 1: this episode with your friends and have a good old

638
00:36:25,045 --> 00:36:28,165
Speaker 1: fashioned debate and let me know where you land. The

639
00:36:28,245 --> 00:36:31,565
Speaker 1: executive producer of No Filter is Niama Brown. She's not

640
00:36:31,605 --> 00:36:34,765
Speaker 1: a fan of trigger warnings either. Our audio producer is

641
00:36:34,845 --> 00:36:37,925
Speaker 1: Leiah Porges, and she's on the fence. See lots of

642
00:36:37,965 --> 00:36:41,405
Speaker 1: opinions over here at MMA. Miya, I'm mea Friedman. Thanks

643
00:36:41,445 --> 00:36:42,765
Speaker 1: for listening. That's of laugh