WEBVTT - Grief Has No Time For Your Bullshit 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:14.927 You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the 0:00:14.927 --> 0:00:17.727 traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is 0:00:17.727 --> 0:00:23.167 recorded on. No fancy words today, no jokes, no flowery 0:00:23.207 --> 0:00:29.967 metaphors and tricky punctuation, no alliteration, strategic repetition, no rightly tricks. 0:00:31.047 --> 0:00:35.367 Grief has no time for my bullshit. Loss isn't interested 0:00:35.367 --> 0:00:37.687 in how clever your sentences might be, or how they 0:00:37.767 --> 0:00:41.327 sound read out loud. Midwomen know that there isn't a 0:00:41.407 --> 0:00:43.967 damned thing that can step in and tap dance away 0:00:44.047 --> 0:00:48.327 the empty middle of losing someone you love, that it 0:00:48.367 --> 0:00:52.967 rearranges you inside and out, opens up a space and 0:00:53.047 --> 0:00:56.847 floods it with missing and with resentment or anger maybe 0:00:57.207 --> 0:01:02.487 and with longing. Grief comes to everyone, some sooner than others, 0:01:03.087 --> 0:01:07.847 with brutal speed or an agonizing crawl. The most extraordinary 0:01:07.927 --> 0:01:11.727 of ordinary in ever pains the one that can knock 0:01:11.767 --> 0:01:15.287 you of course and leave you breathless and reeling, aching 0:01:15.487 --> 0:01:21.407 and empty. For years, I've had the outrageous good fortune 0:01:21.607 --> 0:01:23.767 of still being able to touch a screen and hear 0:01:23.807 --> 0:01:27.407 my mother complaining about something my brother isn't doing, or 0:01:27.487 --> 0:01:29.687 to see my father's face all too close as he 0:01:29.727 --> 0:01:31.807 tries to work out why the image on the iPad 0:01:31.847 --> 0:01:35.207 has tipped on its side. I know how precious that 0:01:35.367 --> 0:01:38.087 is for as long as I get it, because I 0:01:38.127 --> 0:01:40.287 have sat with my beloved and held him as his 0:01:40.367 --> 0:01:43.687 excellent mother left us. I have missed an old friend's 0:01:43.687 --> 0:01:47.567 slow smile, knowing I'll never hear him laugh again. I've 0:01:47.567 --> 0:01:50.887 seen the terrible gap left by my teenage boyfriend. I've 0:01:50.927 --> 0:01:54.007 watched a wonderful man's daughter grow up without him. I've 0:01:54.047 --> 0:01:56.287 mourned the loss of babies I never got to hold. 0:01:57.847 --> 0:02:00.087 We've all felt just a little of it, or much 0:02:00.167 --> 0:02:05.087 too much. But I know my outrageous good fortune today. 0:02:05.167 --> 0:02:08.247 My children are safe on their damn screens, and my 0:02:08.327 --> 0:02:11.567 brother his means, my friend, family, and my partner in 0:02:11.607 --> 0:02:15.967 life are all still going about their ordinary days. There 0:02:16.007 --> 0:02:18.247 I go, trying to pretty up these words about the 0:02:18.247 --> 0:02:21.727 worst thing that can happen to us. Midwomen lie in 0:02:21.767 --> 0:02:25.967 bed and count their people, silently tallying their luck. We 0:02:26.007 --> 0:02:27.927 don't want to talk about it, but if it hasn't 0:02:27.927 --> 0:02:32.247 already visited, grief is looming, and so we care, and 0:02:32.287 --> 0:02:34.727 we nurture and soothe, and we hope we can keep 0:02:34.767 --> 0:02:38.847 it at bay if we just don't mention it. Today 0:02:39.007 --> 0:02:42.887 we're mentioning it because silence is lonely and grief is 0:02:42.927 --> 0:02:45.527 the price we pay for love, as a wise woman said, 0:02:46.167 --> 0:02:48.607 and a life without loss is a life without love, 0:02:49.167 --> 0:02:52.287 and mid women know that isn't worth the trade. There's 0:02:52.327 --> 0:02:57.607 the solace in sharing always, and mid women know that too. 0:02:59.487 --> 0:02:59.807 Hello. 0:03:00.407 --> 0:03:04.287 I'm Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, mid family, 0:03:04.527 --> 0:03:08.687 mid identity crisis. And today we're talking about the thing 0:03:08.887 --> 0:03:11.687 we're not allowed to talk about. And I don't mean 0:03:11.727 --> 0:03:13.647 because someone will wag a finger at us if we do. 0:03:14.087 --> 0:03:16.567 I mean because it goes to the core of everything 0:03:16.607 --> 0:03:19.567 we're afraid of. Even if many of the women listening 0:03:19.567 --> 0:03:22.607 to this today are living there. Right now, we're talking 0:03:22.727 --> 0:03:27.807 about grief. If you're thinking that this episode sounds too much, 0:03:28.447 --> 0:03:31.807 then for you right now, perhaps you're right. But if 0:03:31.807 --> 0:03:35.007 you're thinking it sounds heavy and difficult and depressing, then 0:03:35.047 --> 0:03:38.447 you should stay because it's actually anything but thanks to 0:03:38.487 --> 0:03:43.207 our extraordinary guest, doctor Jackie Bailey is a death walker. 0:03:43.767 --> 0:03:46.407 She walks with the dying, and she brings comfort and 0:03:46.527 --> 0:03:50.007 ritual to their people. She's an interfaith minister and a 0:03:50.047 --> 0:03:53.087 funeral celebrant, and she's a writer. I met her at 0:03:53.087 --> 0:03:55.447 a regional book event last year, and after she'd stood 0:03:55.527 --> 0:03:57.607 up and discussed her book The Eulogy, in front of 0:03:57.647 --> 0:04:00.167 an audience on the panel, we were both on Her 0:04:00.247 --> 0:04:03.127 book line snaked around the block with people wanting to 0:04:03.127 --> 0:04:07.207 buy it. Why because of her own experience of grief, 0:04:07.487 --> 0:04:10.127 having lived, as she's about to tell you, in close 0:04:10.167 --> 0:04:13.207 proximity to death since she was seven, and that's given 0:04:13.247 --> 0:04:17.847 her a particularly beautiful, simple, comforting but no bullshit perspective 0:04:17.887 --> 0:04:21.407 on it. In this conversation, we talk about that, and 0:04:21.447 --> 0:04:23.167 we talk about what to do if someone you love 0:04:23.247 --> 0:04:25.567 is dying, and we talk about what to do if 0:04:25.607 --> 0:04:28.447 that person is you, And we talk about the kind 0:04:28.487 --> 0:04:31.687 of spiritual practices that actually soothe, and we talk about 0:04:31.727 --> 0:04:34.287 how there are no shortcuts to getting over it. And 0:04:34.327 --> 0:04:36.407 we talk about how to write a eulogy for someone 0:04:36.447 --> 0:04:39.567 you love but maybe didn't even like very much. It's 0:04:39.607 --> 0:04:43.967 a serious, important, sometimes funny conversation about something that none 0:04:43.967 --> 0:04:50.247 of us want to talk about apart from Jackie. Jackie, 0:04:50.727 --> 0:04:55.847 you are an interfaith minister, a funeral celebrant. Is that 0:04:55.887 --> 0:04:57.447 what we call this funeral celebrant? 0:04:57.567 --> 0:04:57.967 Yeah? 0:04:58.127 --> 0:05:01.127 But I've also seen you described as a death walker. 0:05:02.087 --> 0:05:03.447 What is a death walker? 0:05:03.887 --> 0:05:09.927 It's not a character from the game of Striones coming 0:05:09.927 --> 0:05:14.087 in today's unfortunately. I mean, anyway, it depends on which 0:05:14.087 --> 0:05:20.007 I tell. Yeah, that's what Senath Farrago, who's like a 0:05:20.047 --> 0:05:23.047 you know, guiding light in the deathy kind of movement 0:05:23.087 --> 0:05:24.087 in Australia and in the world. 0:05:24.087 --> 0:05:25.807 I have to just stop you there because I've heard 0:05:25.847 --> 0:05:28.767 you on another podcast talk about Deathy's. You were like 0:05:28.887 --> 0:05:31.767 talking about your work and you know your research, and 0:05:31.767 --> 0:05:33.727 you said this one's for the other Deathy's And I 0:05:33.767 --> 0:05:37.047 was like, okay, step back, what's a deathy. 0:05:37.367 --> 0:05:40.767 Or the people like me who are kind of obsessed 0:05:41.087 --> 0:05:42.567 with that part of life. 0:05:43.207 --> 0:05:44.327 Yeah, so we. 0:05:44.247 --> 0:05:47.047 Did research it. 0:05:47.447 --> 0:05:50.527 Yeah, yeah, you sort of your death He's That's where 0:05:50.567 --> 0:05:55.247 I'm most comfortable. So yeah, I'm far more comfortable officiating 0:05:55.247 --> 0:05:58.647 a funeral than a wedding, for example. Yeah, it's just 0:05:58.647 --> 0:06:02.567 my comfortable space. It's really intimate, meaningful, authentic, or a 0:06:02.607 --> 0:06:05.167 lot of stuff is stripped away. Maybe also because I'm 0:06:05.167 --> 0:06:08.047 from a big family, so I'm really used to negotiating 0:06:08.367 --> 0:06:10.527 the or the issue that come up in that context. 0:06:10.527 --> 0:06:12.247 It's just my I wouldn't. 0:06:11.887 --> 0:06:13.767 Say it's my happy place. It's not my happy place. 0:06:13.847 --> 0:06:15.687 It's not happy, but it's my most comfortable. 0:06:15.967 --> 0:06:18.207 You sort of study to be an inter faith minister, 0:06:18.287 --> 0:06:20.967 don't you. Yeah, it's like and you're ordained and everything, 0:06:20.967 --> 0:06:24.167 but it's a non religious role, that's right. Yeah, And 0:06:24.607 --> 0:06:26.927 I've seen you say that other people who you went 0:06:26.967 --> 0:06:30.047 through that with they might do things like be prison 0:06:30.407 --> 0:06:34.887 chaplains or like non religious pastors kind. 0:06:34.687 --> 0:06:36.447 Of Is that right? Yeah, that's exactly right. 0:06:36.487 --> 0:06:40.207 But that you For you, it was always about death, 0:06:40.327 --> 0:06:43.487 that's what I read you say, Why do you think that? Is? 0:06:44.127 --> 0:06:48.767 Basically because since I was seven, about seven years old, 0:06:48.767 --> 0:06:53.487 my sister was dying and it took her thirty one 0:06:53.567 --> 0:06:56.927 years to die, which is a long time to live 0:06:57.047 --> 0:06:59.767 with that possibility. So I was obsessed with it from 0:06:59.767 --> 0:07:02.167 a very young age, thinking about the meaning of life 0:07:02.207 --> 0:07:03.927 and what happens after we die. 0:07:04.207 --> 0:07:06.327 Can you give a little bit of context to that, 0:07:06.527 --> 0:07:10.847 because I've read your beautiful eulogy, which is a fictionalized 0:07:10.927 --> 0:07:14.607 version of this story. But for the people listening, when 0:07:14.647 --> 0:07:17.767 you say your sister was dying from the age of seven, 0:07:17.847 --> 0:07:19.647 what do you mean what happened? 0:07:20.047 --> 0:07:23.167 So she was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor when 0:07:23.207 --> 0:07:26.367 she was ten and I was seven, and they thought 0:07:26.367 --> 0:07:28.207 she would only live for about a year. But she 0:07:28.327 --> 0:07:32.287 lived for another thirty odd years, gradually deteriorating though, so 0:07:33.087 --> 0:07:36.647 you know, physical and intellectual handicaps. And when she did 0:07:36.647 --> 0:07:39.127 eventually die, by then she was in a group home 0:07:39.167 --> 0:07:41.127 and she couldn't swallow or speak anymore. 0:07:41.807 --> 0:07:44.207 So it was a long time. 0:07:44.327 --> 0:07:48.327 It was a long time of watching her die, obviously 0:07:48.367 --> 0:07:51.327 not thinking the whole time about Like I didn't think 0:07:52.047 --> 0:07:54.727 in those terms when I was with her, But there's 0:07:54.807 --> 0:07:57.647 always part of you waiting for the phone call in 0:07:57.687 --> 0:08:01.607 the middle of the night. So nowadays my sisters died 0:08:01.647 --> 0:08:03.927 and both my parents have died, I don't really have 0:08:04.447 --> 0:08:05.687 to have that feeling anymore. 0:08:05.687 --> 0:08:06.767 I can turn my phone off. 0:08:06.967 --> 0:08:10.007 That must be a strange shift, because for almost your 0:08:10.007 --> 0:08:11.047 whole life you. 0:08:11.007 --> 0:08:13.407 Have I mean, I don't think you switch from one 0:08:13.487 --> 0:08:15.687 to the other immediately either. It's sort of like any 0:08:15.767 --> 0:08:20.207 kind of I guess trauma that you're always attuned to it. 0:08:20.967 --> 0:08:22.647 So do you think from seven year old you And 0:08:22.647 --> 0:08:24.207 don't worry, I'm not going to try and be an 0:08:24.207 --> 0:08:28.247 amateur psychologist. He's very far from my area of expertise, 0:08:28.287 --> 0:08:32.047 But do you think that your need to like understand 0:08:32.087 --> 0:08:34.407 get your hands around death almost is that where it 0:08:34.447 --> 0:08:37.127 comes from. This is sort of thinking or being told 0:08:37.327 --> 0:08:38.567 this is going to happen to your sisters. 0:08:38.607 --> 0:08:41.407 Yeah, definitely, definitely, because when you're that young as well. 0:08:41.967 --> 0:08:44.487 I mean she and I were very close. I felt 0:08:44.527 --> 0:08:47.647 like she was me and I was her. You know, 0:08:47.727 --> 0:08:50.927 there's that boundary is pretty blurry with siblings who are 0:08:50.967 --> 0:08:51.767 quite close to you. 0:08:51.807 --> 0:08:55.847 Because you're from a big family seven and you're the youngest. 0:08:56.087 --> 0:08:57.527 Yeah, I'm the younger, so you had a. 0:08:57.447 --> 0:08:59.807 Lot of like looking forward and up and trying to 0:08:59.887 --> 0:09:03.367 understand what the hell's going on in this big, chaotic family. 0:09:03.447 --> 0:09:05.127 Yeah. I mean, it's just what you're used to. It's 0:09:05.127 --> 0:09:07.207 just what you grow up with. But Allison was mine. 0:09:07.647 --> 0:09:10.807 Allison was mine and I was hers. She kind of 0:09:10.807 --> 0:09:15.407 looked out for me in that big, complicated, messy Catholic 0:09:15.447 --> 0:09:18.967 family household. Yeah, so when she got sick, it was 0:09:19.047 --> 0:09:22.687 really devastating for everybody. Which is kind of funny too 0:09:22.727 --> 0:09:26.007 because this may sound sort of weird, but when you've 0:09:26.007 --> 0:09:27.887 got that many kids, you kind of think, well, maybe 0:09:27.927 --> 0:09:30.927 the parents won't be so like they won't care as 0:09:31.007 --> 0:09:33.167 much because they've got so many, which. 0:09:33.047 --> 0:09:36.727 Is not the case at all, control these backups. 0:09:36.727 --> 0:09:39.767 And I've got an only child, and I now know 0:09:39.847 --> 0:09:42.247 that the more you have, the more it grows, the 0:09:42.367 --> 0:09:46.207 more the concern grows. So Allison's illness really transformed our 0:09:46.247 --> 0:09:49.207 whole family. It brought them back, brought them, brought some 0:09:49.247 --> 0:09:51.927 of my sisters back to the family who had kind 0:09:51.927 --> 0:09:57.527 of tried to leave. I think it brought out a 0:09:57.567 --> 0:10:00.647 better side of both of my parents, who were pretty 0:10:01.487 --> 0:10:05.327 troubled people and were you know, throughout our lives. But 0:10:05.767 --> 0:10:09.247 you know, Dad stopped drinking for a long time until 0:10:09.447 --> 0:10:11.767 sort of the end of his life. And Mum, I mean, 0:10:11.847 --> 0:10:15.567 Mum kept gambling. But she she was just much nicer 0:10:16.167 --> 0:10:18.527 to Alison and I than she was to my older sisters. 0:10:19.327 --> 0:10:21.527 I mean, it's that's a relative term, but yeah, she 0:10:21.607 --> 0:10:26.527 genuinely was because she really cared about Alison so and 0:10:26.607 --> 0:10:28.167 I could see that, whereas I don't know if my 0:10:28.207 --> 0:10:31.127 older sisters got to see that that's part of her 0:10:31.527 --> 0:10:32.887 the way that I did up close. 0:10:34.407 --> 0:10:38.367 So when you say that, you know you're comfortable around 0:10:38.407 --> 0:10:42.367 death and the rituals around death and a good death 0:10:42.367 --> 0:10:45.567 a good goodbye. That's exactly what most people are very 0:10:45.647 --> 0:10:48.727 uncomfortable about, right, I mean for a lot of people, 0:10:48.727 --> 0:10:52.567 they will do almost anything to avoid talking about death, 0:10:53.127 --> 0:10:57.087 talking to someone who's experienced loss knowing how to behave 0:10:57.327 --> 0:11:00.087 around it. And you must, I guess, through your work 0:11:01.367 --> 0:11:04.087 come up against that a lot. And is there any 0:11:04.167 --> 0:11:06.607 kind of pattern that you see in people that you 0:11:06.727 --> 0:11:10.047 work with around death who are whether they're comfortable or 0:11:10.087 --> 0:11:12.047 not with it? I guess does it make a difference. 0:11:13.047 --> 0:11:14.447 So I'm going to have a think about that in 0:11:14.527 --> 0:11:17.287 terms of the people who themselves are dying versus the 0:11:17.327 --> 0:11:21.367 people around them. Yeah, and before death then obviously after death. 0:11:21.687 --> 0:11:24.647 And so that's if you have a terminal illness or 0:11:24.887 --> 0:11:26.367 you know, and it's like this. 0:11:26.247 --> 0:11:29.527 Is yeah, you know care, paliative care, that's right, end 0:11:29.567 --> 0:11:30.367 of life care. 0:11:30.167 --> 0:11:31.567 You're in that phase of your life. 0:11:31.647 --> 0:11:35.087 So you're switching from a medical intervention to try and 0:11:35.087 --> 0:11:37.967 make you better to medical intervention to just try and 0:11:38.127 --> 0:11:41.447 lessen your pain, make you comfortable. So those people they 0:11:41.487 --> 0:11:43.727 want to get their house in order, they want to 0:11:43.767 --> 0:11:47.127 make generally, I mean it's not always at all, but generally, 0:11:47.207 --> 0:11:50.247 once they've made that transition to going Okay, I'm not 0:11:50.287 --> 0:11:54.447 fighting the cancer so much anymore as trying to make 0:11:54.487 --> 0:11:56.727 sure I have good quality of life for this last 0:11:56.767 --> 0:11:59.527 bit of my life. They're pretty prepared to tell you 0:11:59.887 --> 0:12:03.247 what they want. You know, I've met some people in 0:12:03.287 --> 0:12:06.087 that context because they want to meet the person who 0:12:06.167 --> 0:12:07.527 might be their funeral celebrant. 0:12:09.367 --> 0:12:12.527 Yeah, in the shame way you would meet a wedding self. Yeah. 0:12:12.527 --> 0:12:15.767 And I really do like being able to meet the 0:12:15.767 --> 0:12:18.327 person beforehand, because you don't want to get up and 0:12:18.367 --> 0:12:20.647 be like, oh this person was and you've never even 0:12:20.647 --> 0:12:23.047 met them before. I always make the point at a 0:12:23.087 --> 0:12:25.767 funeral to say, like, I didn't know this person that well, 0:12:25.807 --> 0:12:28.807 So I'm going to leave all the deep, meaty. 0:12:29.167 --> 0:12:30.287 Stories to you guys. 0:12:30.407 --> 0:12:33.207 But my job's just to facilitate, and generally what I 0:12:33.207 --> 0:12:34.927 say at a funeral is It's kind of what I've 0:12:35.007 --> 0:12:36.807 learned is that it's sort of my job to let 0:12:36.847 --> 0:12:40.007 you know that you have permission to say and feel 0:12:40.367 --> 0:12:42.567 all the things that you're feeling all of them, and 0:12:42.567 --> 0:12:44.847 do what you need to do. That's what I've realized 0:12:44.927 --> 0:12:46.967 over the years. But anyway, we were talking about people 0:12:47.287 --> 0:12:49.927 and their attitudes and their ability to talk about death. 0:12:50.007 --> 0:12:53.167 So people who know that they're dying are fairly practical 0:12:54.007 --> 0:12:56.927 in my experience, Like my mother in law died a 0:12:56.927 --> 0:13:00.767 few years ago, and she was very clear about what 0:13:00.807 --> 0:13:03.447 she wanted. When we put together the slide show for 0:13:03.567 --> 0:13:06.487 her funeral. My husband had put it together and he 0:13:06.567 --> 0:13:09.887 had recorded her telling him what to put in it, 0:13:09.927 --> 0:13:13.327 and he put that in over the top of the music, 0:13:13.367 --> 0:13:16.287 which was so it was great. She was like, you know, 0:13:16.327 --> 0:13:17.927 I don't want it to be too sad, so do 0:13:17.967 --> 0:13:20.847 this and do that. We're just you know, laugh, crying 0:13:20.887 --> 0:13:24.087 and all that sort of thing the people around them. 0:13:24.287 --> 0:13:30.367 Some people, it varies, but some people don't want you 0:13:30.607 --> 0:13:32.727 to talk about it. They don't want their person to 0:13:32.727 --> 0:13:35.927 be talking about it, and that can be hard because 0:13:35.927 --> 0:13:38.527 if that person wants to talk about it and nobody 0:13:38.527 --> 0:13:41.007 around them will talk to them about it. You know, 0:13:41.327 --> 0:13:43.767 the last thing that they want in life is to 0:13:43.807 --> 0:13:46.127 be heard and seeing. This last thing with any of us. 0:13:46.847 --> 0:13:48.527 It's the first and last thing we want is to 0:13:48.567 --> 0:13:51.647 be seen and heard. And if the people who love 0:13:51.687 --> 0:13:53.567 you keep telling you that you're going to be all right, 0:13:54.207 --> 0:13:56.127 you know, and they're doing it because they can't face 0:13:56.167 --> 0:13:58.407 the pain. So it's all understandable. 0:13:58.967 --> 0:14:02.887 There'll be people listening to this who have suffered loss 0:14:03.447 --> 0:14:07.967 or are at the moment maybe caring for a parent 0:14:08.047 --> 0:14:10.447 who you know, may not have a lot of time, 0:14:10.567 --> 0:14:15.927 or you know, there's a sort of slow process. Does 0:14:15.967 --> 0:14:18.727 it make any I don't know quite what I'm asking here, 0:14:18.727 --> 0:14:20.607 But does it make any difference to the shock of 0:14:20.647 --> 0:14:24.527 the loss when it happens for the people around them? Well, 0:14:24.567 --> 0:14:26.807 if you know that it's been coming a long time. 0:14:27.607 --> 0:14:32.367 No, unfortunately, Sorry, I'm not not at all. 0:14:32.447 --> 0:14:33.967 I was just sort of thinking. 0:14:33.927 --> 0:14:36.007 I mean, you know, yes and no, like you do 0:14:36.127 --> 0:14:38.847 know it's coming, so maybe it does. 0:14:39.007 --> 0:14:39.367 I don't know. 0:14:39.687 --> 0:14:41.927 I've had both. So that's the other reason I do 0:14:41.967 --> 0:14:44.687 this work. I've had a lot of deaths. My dad 0:14:44.767 --> 0:14:48.127 died suddenly when I was twenty. 0:14:47.767 --> 0:14:49.407 Three, and you found him. 0:14:49.647 --> 0:14:52.447 Yeah, yeah, it was Christmas Eve and you had a 0:14:52.487 --> 0:14:56.967 heart attack in his sleep. So that was sudden, and 0:14:57.047 --> 0:15:00.247 that probably took me ten years to get over, I reckon. 0:15:00.527 --> 0:15:02.567 But there were other things that I had to deal with, 0:15:02.607 --> 0:15:05.687 you know, which I kind of talked about in theology 0:15:06.127 --> 0:15:10.647 with Alison and my mum who died just few months ago. Now, 0:15:11.207 --> 0:15:15.007 like Allison was sick, so probably took me six to 0:15:15.047 --> 0:15:19.807 twelve months physically, because grief is a physical process as well, 0:15:20.167 --> 0:15:24.287 for the cells of my body to kind of imbibe 0:15:24.287 --> 0:15:26.647 the knowledge that this person was no longer around. 0:15:26.767 --> 0:15:29.847 Tell me a little bit about that, because that's what 0:15:29.887 --> 0:15:32.327 I mean. Obviously it's not my air of expertise, but 0:15:32.367 --> 0:15:37.727 it's yours. Grief isn't an emotion, right, It's something much more. 0:15:38.007 --> 0:15:41.287 It's a found in all consumed, whole of body, whole 0:15:41.327 --> 0:15:43.127 of spirit experience. 0:15:43.647 --> 0:15:50.487 Yeah, because often people they want to know, like, they 0:15:50.647 --> 0:15:53.367 give themselves a hard time about I'm not over it. 0:15:53.487 --> 0:15:55.807 I can why aren't I over it? I'm looking around 0:15:55.807 --> 0:15:58.727 and I'm seeing other people who've lost a parent or 0:15:58.767 --> 0:16:01.967 a sibling or something, and they're walking around looking normal, 0:16:02.047 --> 0:16:07.087 and I'm not. Like there is some reassurance or validation 0:16:07.167 --> 0:16:10.327 in understanding that grief is a whole process as you. 0:16:11.207 --> 0:16:15.447 Yeah, we're very like, you know, we're kind of scientific culture, 0:16:15.607 --> 0:16:17.567 so we like to think, oh, there's science behind this, 0:16:17.767 --> 0:16:21.167 So if well there is, that's that's the comfort that 0:16:21.207 --> 0:16:24.967 I can offer that it is a physiological process. You know, 0:16:25.007 --> 0:16:27.327 when you lose someone, it's like a shock. It's a 0:16:27.367 --> 0:16:30.847 body shock, and you go through shock. So if you 0:16:30.967 --> 0:16:33.487 just had a massive car accident. Your body would go 0:16:33.527 --> 0:16:36.647 into shock. Same kind of thing. When you lose a person, 0:16:37.367 --> 0:16:40.367 you know, there's neurological changes. That's why you get the 0:16:40.367 --> 0:16:43.447 fuzzy brain, and you know you cannot concentrate for very 0:16:43.487 --> 0:16:45.807 long periods of time when someone's just died. Someone asked 0:16:45.807 --> 0:16:49.767 you a question, You're like, oh, I don't know. Lots 0:16:49.767 --> 0:16:53.967 of fatigue, but insomnia just you might be getting sick. 0:16:54.527 --> 0:16:57.127 When there is research that shows that people you know 0:16:57.167 --> 0:17:02.087 have lost a lifelong partner, there is a higher rate 0:17:02.207 --> 0:17:05.847 of death amongst that cohort in the year following the 0:17:05.847 --> 0:17:07.447 loss of their partner, which is why you hear these 0:17:07.487 --> 0:17:10.047 beautiful stories of someone dying, you know, a month after 0:17:10.087 --> 0:17:13.207 their wife or their husband or a partner has died. 0:17:13.007 --> 0:17:15.527 And people will say they died of a broken heart. 0:17:15.207 --> 0:17:16.287 And essentially they did. 0:17:17.407 --> 0:17:23.647 Yeah that's amazing. Yeah, So, is there anything you can 0:17:23.807 --> 0:17:26.127 do to help someone who's grieving. We know you can't 0:17:26.407 --> 0:17:29.287 get a shortcut, you can't solve anything. What are the 0:17:29.327 --> 0:17:32.087 practical things you can do that might actually help people 0:17:32.287 --> 0:17:37.887 in their darkest moment? I mean, I know we're jumping 0:17:37.887 --> 0:17:39.247 around a bit here, but I did want to ask 0:17:39.247 --> 0:17:44.767 you about partners, because a conversation that people I know 0:17:45.127 --> 0:17:47.207 have had for who have been who have lost parents 0:17:47.207 --> 0:17:50.287 perhaps is that if a parent is part of a 0:17:50.327 --> 0:17:53.607 couple and the other person is still there, they are 0:17:53.647 --> 0:17:57.887 sort of the primary griever, if you like. Sometimes the child, 0:17:57.927 --> 0:18:00.527 the adult child is stepping in to try and look 0:18:00.567 --> 0:18:03.887 after that person, encourage them to process their grief in 0:18:03.927 --> 0:18:06.447 a certain way. But there might be like a generation 0:18:06.567 --> 0:18:08.967 or divide there that means that the parent, the remaining 0:18:08.967 --> 0:18:11.687 pair parent doesn't want to deal with it in the 0:18:11.727 --> 0:18:14.127 way that you're trying to pushing them to deal with it. 0:18:14.167 --> 0:18:18.367 You must see these kind of family dynamics in your 0:18:18.407 --> 0:18:24.047 work around a lot. Is there anything that works in 0:18:24.207 --> 0:18:28.447 like trying to respect how other people's grief needs to 0:18:28.487 --> 0:18:28.967 play out? 0:18:30.607 --> 0:18:33.007 Well, I think you just answered your own question, Holly, 0:18:33.207 --> 0:18:37.127 just yet respecting the process and just trying to take 0:18:37.167 --> 0:18:40.527 care of when you're trying to take care of someone. 0:18:40.567 --> 0:18:43.367 So if that happens, say so, after my dad died, 0:18:43.407 --> 0:18:46.647 there was my mum. You know that generally parents don't 0:18:46.687 --> 0:18:48.927 die at the same time, and if they're still together, 0:18:48.967 --> 0:18:52.607 so one is the widow or the widower, Like what's 0:18:52.647 --> 0:18:55.927 playing out is again your thing with your mum, it's 0:18:55.967 --> 0:18:58.487 always the same, like that dynamic will just play out 0:18:58.527 --> 0:19:01.287 in whatever context and whatever the thing is going on 0:19:01.327 --> 0:19:03.647 in life, and this is the loss of you know, 0:19:03.687 --> 0:19:06.367 your dad, her husband, the same thing will play out. 0:19:06.367 --> 0:19:09.087 So with me and my mum, it was I shifted. 0:19:10.167 --> 0:19:12.367 I was all about trying to make her and my 0:19:12.407 --> 0:19:16.207 sister Allison, who she was caring for, better in all 0:19:16.287 --> 0:19:18.807 aspects of the word, better quality of life, you know, 0:19:18.927 --> 0:19:22.047 being more social, gamble less, you know, get Alison out 0:19:22.087 --> 0:19:23.927 and doing things whatever. And I drew them up a 0:19:23.927 --> 0:19:26.607 budget and I was like called all these like associations 0:19:26.687 --> 0:19:29.367 or whatever, and just classic that's just what I've always 0:19:29.407 --> 0:19:32.167 done with both of those people. And she ignored all 0:19:32.207 --> 0:19:35.287 of it, all of it, and obviously that may me mad. 0:19:36.647 --> 0:19:38.727 So you know that the same thing like kind of 0:19:38.807 --> 0:19:42.927 understanding that you, you know, the adult child, you're not 0:19:43.007 --> 0:19:45.967 suddenly wiser than your parent. You're just trying to do 0:19:46.007 --> 0:19:48.647 the same thing that you've probably always tried to do 0:19:48.767 --> 0:19:49.607 or have tried to do for a. 0:19:49.527 --> 0:19:51.927 Long time, which is a certainself and make and make 0:19:52.007 --> 0:19:53.447 them know that you know better than them. 0:19:53.607 --> 0:19:55.927 That is so true. I'm sure there are lots of 0:19:55.927 --> 0:19:57.527 people listening to this. There are lots of people around 0:19:57.527 --> 0:20:00.647 me who are going but Dad just won't move into 0:20:00.767 --> 0:20:03.567 a home or whatever it might be like, or won't 0:20:03.607 --> 0:20:06.167 sell the house, or won't go out and join the 0:20:06.207 --> 0:20:08.447 bingo group or well, you know whatever, like, and I 0:20:08.487 --> 0:20:10.287 know that he needs to do that. You can't just 0:20:10.327 --> 0:20:13.527 sit home and be sad about mom. Yeah, can you 0:20:13.527 --> 0:20:13.967 just sit home? 0:20:14.767 --> 0:20:16.647 Yeah, of course, I mean as long as he's still 0:20:16.687 --> 0:20:21.287 eating and you know, getting enough water and ideally enough exercise. 0:20:21.367 --> 0:20:24.287 Like that's I guess what my default is and what 0:20:24.327 --> 0:20:27.727 my advice and adverted commas is is just to address 0:20:27.767 --> 0:20:31.287 yourself to the physical needs of a person, because you know, 0:20:31.367 --> 0:20:35.647 all the social stuff and like, you just can't make 0:20:35.687 --> 0:20:39.887 someone even when they're like top of their game. You 0:20:39.927 --> 0:20:41.647 can't make them let alone when they're at the bottom 0:20:41.687 --> 0:20:46.447 of their game, you know. So you know, like go 0:20:46.447 --> 0:20:48.487 around and mow the lawn, come in and check that 0:20:48.527 --> 0:20:53.647 there's food and that it's being eaten, organized meals on wheels. 0:20:53.247 --> 0:20:54.647 If you think it's necessary. 0:20:55.727 --> 0:20:58.127 Just the physical stuff, you can do that sort of 0:20:58.207 --> 0:21:01.927 level of bossy, bossy daughter stuff of like you know, 0:21:02.007 --> 0:21:04.967 you're coming with me to the cardiologist on extent you 0:21:05.047 --> 0:21:06.487 just show up and you take them. You can do 0:21:06.567 --> 0:21:09.127 that sort of stuff absolutely, and you should and they'll 0:21:09.847 --> 0:21:12.407 they will feel loved if it's I'm thinking now of dads. 0:21:12.687 --> 0:21:15.447