Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what
Speaker 3: women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifteenth of August.
Speaker 3: My name is Hollywayne, right, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vernham.
Speaker 1: And here's what's on our agender for today.
Speaker 4: Is maternal instinct really a lie? I have a feeling
Speaker 4: that Holly and I passionately disagree about this.
Speaker 3: Quite possibly mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and her neutic labor.
Speaker 1: Say that, right?
Speaker 4: I think you did.
Speaker 3: There's a whole lot of fancy new words to describe
Speaker 3: the same thing. The realities of dating men. Emily Vernon
Speaker 3: is going to translate.
Speaker 2: And we have some recommendations for your weekend, including a
Speaker 2: mysterious new hobby, a hack in learning a new skill,
Speaker 2: and turning a basic bitch vegetable into a delicious dish.
Speaker 2: But for a few nights ago, I was scrolling on TikTok,
Speaker 2: like the four hours I set aside every night for
Speaker 2: my TikTok scroll, and I came across this crator named Brandon,
Speaker 2: and he spoke to my soul. He was walking alongside
Speaker 2: this river and he was talking into the camera about
Speaker 2: how he's an outsidey person, not an outdoorsy person. Okay,
Speaker 2: And I immediately clicked into another video of his where
Speaker 2: he explained what he meant by that.
Speaker 5: This is what he said, We.
Speaker 6: As a society are still not knowing the difference between
Speaker 6: outdoorsy and outsidey. Okay. Outdoorsy is nature for adventure. Outsidey
Speaker 6: is nature for leisure. So for example, backpacking no bever
Speaker 6: g nails, yes, swimming in the ocean, no, strolling upon
Speaker 6: the shore, yes, mountaineering no, Mary.
Speaker 4: Oliver, Yes, I love this so much. I have some
Speaker 4: questions camping outsidey or outdoors outdoors outdoorsy definitely, but glamping
Speaker 4: outsidey okay, because I I think I'm outside And the
Speaker 4: reason for this is that I went on a three
Speaker 4: day hike to Berney Island, remember that, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've been on a similar line.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, because we're hikers and we're very outdoorsy. That's
Speaker 4: what it looks like.
Speaker 5: But the beauty of.
Speaker 4: This hike was that it was an outsidey hike.
Speaker 5: It was what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4: Okay? So you go and have a shower, and when
Speaker 4: you're in the shower, it's open and you look out
Speaker 4: onto the wilderness. But the shower's warm. You got your
Speaker 4: shampoo and conditioner, and you gotta the last of champagne
Speaker 4: on the windows. That is outside.
Speaker 1: That's outsidey.
Speaker 3: I did the same thing. So you walk, so you
Speaker 3: do the outdoorsy bit, but you stay every night in
Speaker 3: a beautiful lot.
Speaker 1: And that's why outside a bit. And there's wine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think I know what my line is. Okay,
Speaker 4: I am outside because I need a coffee, preferably Barista made.
Speaker 4: And I think that the problem with going and camping,
Speaker 4: like my friend recently went to Canada camped the whole time. Wow,
Speaker 4: way too close to the bears. Needs best brain stuff.
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm happy to see the bear from
Speaker 4: my cab, from my hotel. I don't need to hear
Speaker 4: the bear chloring it the thing? And where do you
Speaker 4: get your Barista coffee? What are you am outside?
Speaker 2: Or I definitely outside the borderline? Insidey outside?
Speaker 1: Barely walk every day?
Speaker 2: I do outside, do my outside walk. But the way
Speaker 2: I know if you're someone's outsider versus outdoorsy is how
Speaker 2: they approach holidaying, Like what are your activities you plan
Speaker 2: for your holiday? Are you a hotel family or your
Speaker 2: hiking family. My biggest fear is marrying into a family
Speaker 2: that like to go to walks on their holidays for
Speaker 2: no reason.
Speaker 4: And they have Like I think a sign you're outdoorsy
Speaker 4: is that you own hiking boots. Yes, like you actually
Speaker 4: own them. Are you married to an outdoorsy Holly's married
Speaker 4: You're with.
Speaker 3: An outdoorsys to a very outdoorsy person. And I am outsidey.
Speaker 3: In fact, I'm very outsidey. I like to be outside,
Speaker 3: borderline outdoors.
Speaker 4: Because you touch the outdoors with your If I can't
Speaker 4: go outside, like if the weather's really really terrible, I
Speaker 4: actually get quite sad.
Speaker 3: Like I like to be in nature, as they say,
Speaker 3: But I am not outdoorsy like Brent is. Like I
Speaker 3: can camp. I do it once a year with my friends.
Speaker 3: Have written a book about that. But I'm not like
Speaker 3: encouraging it, you know what I mean. I can go
Speaker 3: for a walk. Years ago, before kids, Brent and I
Speaker 3: went and did the Larapinta trail and it was amazing
Speaker 3: sad and I loved it. But have I done anything
Speaker 3: like that since?
Speaker 1: No? Do I encourage it.
Speaker 4: No another sign you're outdoorsy, Holly. You can answer this question,
Speaker 4: and this is the ultimate question. Do you swim in
Speaker 4: the ocean in winter?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: I reckon, that's it, because I'll swim in the ocean
Speaker 4: on a nice day. If it's a little cold, there's
Speaker 4: no way I'm diving in.
Speaker 3: I don't go in proper winter, but I do love
Speaker 3: to swim in the ocean, and I like to swim
Speaker 3: in rivers.
Speaker 1: I like to swim rivers.
Speaker 3: No, I like, I like to swim anywhere that isn't
Speaker 3: in a swimming pool basically, and so I do really
Speaker 3: like that. If it's it's freezing, I'm not going in.
Speaker 3: I'm not crazy, but I reckon. I'm outsidey without doorsy
Speaker 3: rising yes, but I'm definitely not proper outdoorsy. When Brent
Speaker 3: and I talk about, you know, when we no longer
Speaker 3: have responsibilities and we do whatever, He's like, I'm going
Speaker 3: to go on that twenty eight day high in Western
Speaker 3: Australia happen and he gets my joy out of them there,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, and I will come and meet you
Speaker 3: every now and again as somewhere with a really nice.
Speaker 4: Cocktail, a substack newsletter dropped in my inbox this week
Speaker 4: with the subject line the maternal instinct is a lie.
Speaker 4: And immediately I found that I got my back up,
Speaker 4: which was a surprising response, and I want to work
Speaker 4: through why with you both. The author of this newsletter,
Speaker 4: her name is Sarah Peterson, interviews Chelsea Conner Boy who
Speaker 4: has written a book called mother Brain. And here's what
Speaker 4: she says. This idea that women's capacity for caregiving is
Speaker 4: wholly innate, automatic, and is particular to women is a myth.
Speaker 4: She says, maternal instinct paves the way for the belief
Speaker 4: that women meant to birth children, that they're equipped with
Speaker 4: everything they need without needing any additional time or support.
Speaker 4: The myth of the maternal instinct is also, she says,
Speaker 4: behind the complete lack of clinical care during the postpartum period.
Speaker 4: She believes in the parental brain, something that develops with experience,
Speaker 4: which anyone can have access to. And when I read
Speaker 4: that nuanced argument, I went, yeah, I think I believe
Speaker 4: in the parental brain too. I quite like that it's
Speaker 4: also used, she argues, to justify women staying at home
Speaker 4: and men going back to work because women have the
Speaker 4: maternal instinct rights.
Speaker 3: As we've mentioned several times on the show lately, suddenly
Speaker 3: this seems to be a big issue of debate exactly right,
Speaker 3: whether or not women should be allowed to have jobs. Holly,
Speaker 3: did you find yourself agreeing with connor Boy's argument. Yes,
Speaker 3: But I think it's a very dangerous discussion because arguing
Speaker 3: against maternal instinct can also be seen as devaluing mother's
Speaker 3: work and motherhood in general. And I would never want
Speaker 3: to do that because I think parents in general could
Speaker 3: do with a lot more recognition and support, and I
Speaker 3: don't want to do that. And I can see that
Speaker 3: this headline is a trap to get women to walk
Speaker 3: into and then fight with each other about it. But
Speaker 3: having said all that, from my personal experience, if I'm
Speaker 3: telling the absolute, unvarnished truth of whether or not I
Speaker 3: thought I had maternal instincts, no, I don't think I did.
Speaker 4: How did you feel you learned it?
Speaker 3: I genuinely believe, again for me, only for me, that
Speaker 3: when I left the hospital with our first child in
Speaker 3: that moment, I had no more idea than my partner,
Speaker 3: Brent did about how to keep that baby alive. And
Speaker 3: I believe that because at least in the first instance,
Speaker 3: that baby was dependent on my body to stay alive.
Speaker 3: I had to learn fast, and I had to learn first, Right,
Speaker 3: So you're the one who's first in the line to
Speaker 3: figure this shit out as much as you can and
Speaker 3: then you pass it along, right. But to be honest,
Speaker 3: I don't know that I did ever learn it, like
Speaker 3: I genuinely think. And this is why, I mean, I
Speaker 3: feel very vulnerable admitting this, because it's probably one of
Speaker 3: the worst things a woman, a mother can admit, Like
Speaker 3: nothing was easy or instinctive about it. Like the only
Speaker 3: thing that was easy or instinctive about becoming a mother
Speaker 3: for me, and in this I'm very lucky it was
Speaker 3: the love right that was definitely there. So the other thing,
Speaker 3: if any woman ever admits to how difficult she has
Speaker 3: found motherhood, she has to put a massive caveat as
Speaker 3: I am doing right now, which is that I adore
Speaker 3: my children and they are, you know, the joy of
Speaker 3: my life. If anything, the fact that I wasn't very
Speaker 3: maternal before I had them has meant that is even
Speaker 3: more of a surprise and a delight and a source
Speaker 3: of joy and pride for me, no question. But I
Speaker 3: never feel more insecure than I do when I'm in
Speaker 3: a room of confident mothers, like I just was never
Speaker 3: a confident mother. I never knew and I still don't.
Speaker 3: Like I'm at the doctor when they were little, I'm
Speaker 3: at the doctor when I shouldn't be at the doctor.
Speaker 1: I'm not at the when I should be at the doctor.
Speaker 3: I'm not advocating for them in situations when they really
Speaker 3: might have needed my advocation. But then on the other hand,
Speaker 3: I worried and stressed way too much about things it
Speaker 3: didn't matter, Like I felt like I was always getting
Speaker 3: it wrong, and I would be often around groups of women,
Speaker 3: and even now with teenagers. They bring me their issues
Speaker 3: and all people have issues. I'm not crossing any boundaries there.
Speaker 3: And most of the time my instinct is I have
Speaker 3: no fucking idea. And when I'm around women who seem
Speaker 3: to be very confident mothers and just seem to not
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that it's easy for them,
Speaker 3: because I don't believe that it's easy for anybody, but
Speaker 3: like that they do seem to just know like what
Speaker 3: to do, what to feed them, how to be, how
Speaker 3: to care.
Speaker 5: And do you think that's an instinct?
Speaker 3: I think that maybe can't we accept And I know
Speaker 3: this is always my position, and I'm very boring in
Speaker 3: this regard that there's a spectrum that involves nature, nurture, science, environment,
Speaker 3: that some of us have much stronger maternal instincts than others,
Speaker 3: and some women do and some women don't. And like,
Speaker 3: as I say, like, I love being a mother, I
Speaker 3: absolutely love it, but I'm not a naturally maternal person.
Speaker 3: No one ever makes me office mother, right, Like, I
Speaker 3: think that deeply people understand that if they were going
Speaker 3: to cast me in the role of office mom, den mother, friend,
Speaker 3: group mother, they would get eaten by a bear.
Speaker 1: Like I just I think they deeply know that, whereas.
Speaker 3: We all know some women don't we who were just
Speaker 3: they oosee it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: And so I think, of course there is a maternal instinct,
Speaker 3: but I don't think that every woman has it to
Speaker 3: the same amount. And I do think that parental instincts
Speaker 3: and parental brain can be learnt and can be learned
Speaker 3: by anybody.
Speaker 4: I have one hundred thoughts on that. But first, what
Speaker 4: do you think him?
Speaker 2: When I read this, I felt betrayed because I was
Speaker 2: always thought similar to your point, Holly. I felt like
Speaker 2: even all my friends who don't have kids. I just
Speaker 2: knew who out of us would be really really good mothers,
Speaker 2: and who out of I'd be like, I'm not too sure.
Speaker 2: And I was in that I'm not too sure camp
Speaker 2: because just when there's like a baby in our group,
Speaker 2: the way my friends react to that baby is so
Speaker 2: different to the way I react. And I've always been
Speaker 2: told that if I were to have kids, when I
Speaker 2: have a kid, that will immediately change. You'll immediately get it,
Speaker 2: You'll immediately know exactly what to do.
Speaker 5: You'll get that.
Speaker 4: Mother love all babies, but you'll love your hair.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I was like, Okay, that's fine, I'm chill now.
Speaker 2: And then I read this and I was like, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, what if that doesn't happen to me. It
Speaker 2: kind of scares me to the point of like, are
Speaker 2: we telling women that just as long as you have
Speaker 2: a child, like you'll actually get it and it'll be
Speaker 2: fine after that, because that's what I've been told.
Speaker 4: This is my theory is that we're potentially confusing two things.
Speaker 4: On the one hand, there's maternal instinct, and on the
Speaker 4: other hand, there is this picture symbol of the ideal mother. Right,
Speaker 4: no question and I think we're sort of conflating the two.
Speaker 4: So I think it's a lot about the definition of
Speaker 4: what the maternal instinct is. Because what you just described hole,
Speaker 4: I thought was the maternal instinct. So the sense you're
Speaker 4: always doing it wrong, that's a maternal instinct, I don't
Speaker 4: think it is. I see, Yeah, that's interesting, right, is
Speaker 4: that I feel as though, I mean.
Speaker 3: I think it's a common maternal experience, anxiety. But I
Speaker 3: think the idea that you'll know best, you always really
Speaker 3: know your child, no one knows them better than you do.
Speaker 3: You'll know when it's serious, you'll know, well the cries mean,
Speaker 3: you'll know.
Speaker 1: That's all the stuff that is sold to us as
Speaker 1: the paternal.
Speaker 4: So I looked it up and it said maternal instinct.
Speaker 4: It refers to the natural and inherent tendency of a
Speaker 4: mother to nurture and care for her child. Right, Because
Speaker 4: you spoke about knowing you love the baby, and for
Speaker 4: a lot of people, a lot of people, I know,
Speaker 4: that wasn't the first feeling, exactly the very that's very common,
Speaker 4: right experience was the first feeling was terror and like
Speaker 4: and they say I felt protective. I knew if someone
Speaker 4: walked into that room, I'd say, I'm looking after this
Speaker 4: this baby, But was it love? Not really?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 4: So there is this incredible spectrum, and I think the
Speaker 4: issue is that we keep trying to make motherhood universal,
Speaker 4: and the experience of motherhood is not universal. It is
Speaker 4: so specific. But I remember walking through the door with
Speaker 4: Luna in her capsule and putting her on the floor
Speaker 4: and CHILEI the dogs started kind of wandering towards her,
Speaker 4: and I have never in my life had that feeling.
Speaker 4: I can't even explain it.
Speaker 1: It was like.
Speaker 4: I saw flashes of what was going to happen. It
Speaker 4: was protective, but it was more than that. It was
Speaker 4: enormous anxiety. It was all of those things. And I
Speaker 4: worry that there is something very specific that happens when
Speaker 4: you carry a baby and you have that baby, right,
Speaker 4: there is something specific. We know that there are hormonal, biological,
Speaker 4: neurological changes and that's matrescence, and there's an incredible emerging field.
Speaker 4: Does that mean that if you don't do those things
Speaker 4: then you don't have a parental instinct?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, because to be and I don't want to again,
Speaker 3: I don't want to ever make it sound like I'm
Speaker 3: d value in motherhood because the last thing I'd want
Speaker 3: to do, but feeling protective over my new baby.
Speaker 1: Brent was also protective over that.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing is that we talk about maternal instinct,
Speaker 4: I think because we're using it to kind of prop
Speaker 4: up this ideal mother thing, which is an absolute lie
Speaker 4: that has been used as a weapon against women to
Speaker 4: be this ever giving, ever nurturing.
Speaker 3: Like you have to do everything because you have the mother,
Speaker 3: and also self sacrificing. I mean, how many times do
Speaker 3: you hear people, you know, famous people being interviewed and
Speaker 3: they're like, my mother gave up everything, everything so that
Speaker 3: I could have my dream, and that's that ideal, whereas
Speaker 3: I never say that about fathers.
Speaker 4: By the way, paternal instinct, which is equally a thing,
Speaker 4: is I would say exactly the same. I think it
Speaker 4: can manifest slightly differently. But there is all this research
Speaker 4: too about in the case of adoption or the case
Speaker 4: of grandparents, like the carrying of a baby close to
Speaker 4: your body releases these hormones that make you super super protective.
Speaker 4: And my worry with undermining the whole idea of a
Speaker 4: maternal instinct is that mothers are more anxious today than
Speaker 4: they've ever been in all of history. And is that
Speaker 4: because they've been undermined? Is there a way in which
Speaker 4: all the expertise and the intellectualism and the books and
Speaker 4: the podcasts and the bla and you need to have
Speaker 4: a PhD In all of the things, and if you
Speaker 4: learned to breastfeed yet and makes women feel like they
Speaker 4: are so fundamentally incapable of doing any of this that
Speaker 4: they need all the advice all the time from the experts.
Speaker 4: And there is some truth. I mean, I had to
Speaker 4: learn manually how to breastfeed, like there was nothing instinctive
Speaker 4: about that, and I was never good at it and
Speaker 4: I had to stop. But I think that there are
Speaker 4: some parts of reacting to a baby's cry or whatever
Speaker 4: it is that maybe mothers and fathers need to trust
Speaker 4: themselves a little bit more and that might actually help
Speaker 4: with the anxiety and to kind of sit there and go.
Speaker 4: And I was reassured by some health professionals it's like
Speaker 4: you've got to kind of trust that you know what
Speaker 4: you're doing. Something has happened to you in your brain.
Speaker 4: The circuits have all changed that have programmed you to
Speaker 4: try and look after this thing. What's helped me is
Speaker 4: to go the guilt and the anxiety in all of
Speaker 4: those things the second to all of them kick in,
Speaker 4: and for me, they've been in the realm of normal.
Speaker 4: I know for some people they aren't. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is helping me, this is helping me. That image
Speaker 4: I had of this how horrible thing just happening to Luna,
Speaker 4: I'm going to file that away as my brain doing
Speaker 4: its job.
Speaker 2: I think also, what maternal instinct refers to is it
Speaker 2: doesn't also consider like women who choose to adopt. But
Speaker 2: what this interview did was that it shows that there
Speaker 2: is scientific evidence that people who are around a baby
Speaker 2: in those initial phases there is a change in their
Speaker 2: brain chemistry, but there hasn't been enough research into it
Speaker 2: to actually explain what that change is and how it
Speaker 2: like manifests. So I want to know, with both of
Speaker 2: your partners, do you know when they had that change?
Speaker 4: I think it was gradual, as I think it was.
Speaker 4: And maybe that's how issue too, is that maternal instinct
Speaker 4: just builders this thing that is imbued upon you the
Speaker 4: second you have a baby, Like I don't think that's right.
Speaker 3: I genuinely think and one of the examples is like
Speaker 3: so for my second child, obviously I was more comp
Speaker 3: I still wouldn't have described myselves as confident mother. But
Speaker 3: the literal reason why is because I'd learned it, I've
Speaker 3: done it before. And that's the same for my partner,
Speaker 3: so he for And again I don't want to talk
Speaker 3: in generalizations about specific experiences, but Brent was also a
Speaker 3: farther like he adored the baby. You know, and you
Speaker 3: have to this is a team effort, and I've talked
Speaker 3: about that lots of times, like you've got to trust
Speaker 3: them to know what they're doing and learn what they're
Speaker 3: doing because all the things you're learning, and you've never
Speaker 3: been on such a steep learning curve as you are
Speaker 3: in those early days of parenthood. They also have to learn.
Speaker 3: But if you don't let them learn, they won't learn,
Speaker 3: and you will be the keeper of all that knowledge.
Speaker 3: I do think that anyone can learn it. I agree
Speaker 3: with you, Jesse about almost everything you say about the
Speaker 3: fact that I think we've undermined instinct to a point
Speaker 3: in terms of the constant and this is I mean,
Speaker 3: it's capitalism.
Speaker 1: Let's face it.
Speaker 3: They want you to buy the books and buy the things,
Speaker 3: and buy all the products that are supposed to make
Speaker 3: things easier and all of those things.
Speaker 4: It's also access to information.
Speaker 3: It is, and so I do agree with all of
Speaker 3: making you anxious. But for me, I don't think it
Speaker 3: was necessarily that, because I just genuinely believe that we've
Speaker 3: created an ideal that can undermine mothers a lot, which
Speaker 3: is that you'll know what to do, it will be natural.
Speaker 3: A good mother does this that are so deep in
Speaker 3: us that it's really hard to unpick it. And I
Speaker 3: think that maybe some women do. And I genuinely believe that,
Speaker 3: Like the point of this article was sort of points
Speaker 3: saying that the motherhood myth, the maternal instinct myth, as
Speaker 3: she calls it, is like a trap to keep you
Speaker 3: at home and keep the status quo in place and
Speaker 3: allow men to not have to have anything to do
Speaker 3: with child rearing and all those things. I think that
Speaker 3: there's a lot of truth in that. And I think
Speaker 3: there's an enormous amount of truth that for many, many
Speaker 3: women it's the most satisfying and important thing they'll ever do,
Speaker 3: and that they'll get so much self esteem out of
Speaker 3: being able to do it well.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: So I think two things can be true and I
Speaker 3: think there's no question that the culture has given us
Speaker 3: an impossible ideal to live up to, and I think
Speaker 3: it's probably harder to live up to for some women
Speaker 3: than others.
Speaker 1: That's what I genuinely think.
Speaker 2: And also just I feel like sometimes when we talk
Speaker 2: about maternal instinct, sometimes I think when I am around kids,
Speaker 2: I always like grapple with is this like a maternal
Speaker 2: instinct or just an instinct because I'm an adult and
Speaker 2: they're a kid. Like, for example, if I'm at a
Speaker 2: bar or at a pub and there's like a little kid,
Speaker 2: they should be a kid at bath so there's like
Speaker 2: a little like kind of kid running around. I'm just
Speaker 2: staring at that kid because I'm always like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's going to bump it on our table, it's gonna
Speaker 2: run over there. Even when Luna came into the office,
Speaker 2: Like you just can't help yourself from like watching kids
Speaker 2: and seeing what they're doing and making sure they're not
Speaker 2: hurting for yourself, And it just comes so naturally. And
Speaker 2: I feel like that's with everyone, regardless they're a parent.
Speaker 4: Or not, or their gender, oh the gender, not even
Speaker 4: knowing who that kid is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like it just comes.
Speaker 4: And you know, I wonder if the maternal instinct has
Speaker 4: kind of been used to undermine the village too. Like
Speaker 4: then it's sort of going, well, the mother will do
Speaker 4: it best because it's also innate to her. Where As
Speaker 4: you know, lunar is in the care of lots of
Speaker 4: different people, and some of them have had kids before,
Speaker 4: a lot of them haven't, And that instinct, whatever you
Speaker 4: want to call it, you've got a trust that that
Speaker 4: will come in all the different caregivers because they build
Speaker 4: a relationship with them.
Speaker 1: Man keeping.
Speaker 3: You're probably hearing that word everywhere at the minute, and
Speaker 3: there are a whole lot of others that are all
Speaker 3: describing the same thing, the realities of dating men.
Speaker 1: Emily Vernham's going to take us through it.
Speaker 3: So moving on from women to men and the women
Speaker 3: who date them. Maybe this week you've seen a lot
Speaker 3: of man keeping talk around. We discussed this on the
Speaker 3: pod a while ago last year. I think mankeeping describes
Speaker 3: the caretaking role that women often play for the men
Speaker 3: in their lives. We're did a lot of generalizing today,
Speaker 3: by the way, a great deal of generalizing, looking after
Speaker 3: their emotional needs, bolstering their confidence, supporting their well being.
Speaker 3: It's not just necessarily about doing more around the house,
Speaker 3: but that base you're the one who will remind them
Speaker 3: to go to the doctors, tell them to call their
Speaker 3: mother on her birthday, all of that kind.
Speaker 4: Of I love my dad, but I think I man
Speaker 4: keep my dad like I think that he's someone I
Speaker 4: have to look after.
Speaker 3: There was an article in The Guardian recently called are
Speaker 3: heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded
Speaker 3: up a whole lot of other examples of terms like
Speaker 3: man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically
Speaker 3: the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.
Speaker 3: For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to
Speaker 3: describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the
Speaker 3: mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, do you relate?
Speaker 2: I think I related more to this in my early
Speaker 2: twenties when I first started dating, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're
Speaker 2: new to dating or they've come after a breakup and
Speaker 2: they're in the new world of dating, it is quite
Speaker 2: sudden experience to see how many people are so different
Speaker 2: to you and your friends, to that out there that
Speaker 2: are now in the dating pool, and it's something that
Speaker 2: I feel like now I've just gotten so so used
Speaker 2: to that it's like not even a thing for me anymore.
Speaker 2: Like you just have to be okay with knowing that
Speaker 2: some people you'll date are just going to be quite shit.
Speaker 4: So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism or
Speaker 4: hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual
Speaker 4: woman and going, I don't know how much longer I
Speaker 4: can do this? Because that was a sense. There was
Speaker 4: a great New York Times piece about it, and that's
Speaker 4: what the author essentially said, is it her friends look
Speaker 4: at each other and go, I'm off it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every single situation, ship breakup, which a lot of
Speaker 2: women go through, I feel like I go through that
Speaker 2: all over again, and then I delete the apps and
Speaker 2: they come back like six months later. Only recently. I
Speaker 2: want to read you out some texts that I got
Speaker 2: from a man. Oh please, I was seeing this guy.
Speaker 2: I think we went on about four or five dates.
Speaker 1: I have a feeling.
Speaker 2: I talked about him on the podcast, talked about tying
Speaker 2: one on the podcast, and we were talking and he
Speaker 2: wanted to date, and I was like yeah, and He's like,
Speaker 2: she would be exclusive, and I was like, yeah, if
Speaker 2: you want, Like I mean, I'm still in the apps.
Speaker 2: I know you're still in the apps because your profile
Speaker 2: still there, and he's like yeah yeah. And then two
Speaker 2: days after that, I just messaged him and I was like,
Speaker 2: are you free on the weekend and he said a
Speaker 2: day later, which was the Saturday, he said, I'm at
Speaker 2: work all weekend. I finished had six tomorrow, but we've
Speaker 2: got lots of bookings in because he's a bartender, so.
Speaker 5: It could be later. Sorry, I'll keep you in the loop.
Speaker 5: Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.
Speaker 4: Okay. So in this New York Times article it told
Speaker 4: a story and this woman was talking about one of
Speaker 4: her friends and she'd gone on a third date with
Speaker 4: a lawyer and her friend said to her, he's really
Speaker 4: really sweet and nice to me and good at sex.
Speaker 4: No doubt something humiliating a night marriage will occur, so
Speaker 4: which I just really related with anyway, And then he
Speaker 4: went he was really busy with his word. Men are
Speaker 4: all they're so busy with their works, so I'm like women.
Speaker 4: And she ended up saying she would message him and
Speaker 4: he would just go days and days, and she kind
Speaker 4: of ended up saying, Hey, is it hang all right?
Speaker 3: Like you?
Speaker 4: No, you take six days to respond, It was just
Speaker 4: taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said sorry for keeping
Speaker 4: you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said the
Speaker 4: complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able to
Speaker 4: escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship, and
Speaker 4: this friend clarified that she had not been asking to
Speaker 4: escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.
Speaker 4: He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were
Speaker 4: obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason
Speaker 4: I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had
Speaker 4: this happen about seven times. It was like clockwork.
Speaker 5: I feel like he just read out my diary.
Speaker 4: Yes, of I would date people and then four months,
Speaker 4: like not two days, four months down the track, and
Speaker 4: then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird
Speaker 4: or trying to make a plan or something, and I
Speaker 4: would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it
Speaker 4: would go I think we want different things, and I
Speaker 4: was like, I just want to know if for hanging
Speaker 4: out on Saturday, and then they'd be like, you clearly
Speaker 4: want a relationship, And I was like, I do, but
Speaker 4: I didn't say that.
Speaker 3: Friends, he's just not that into you.
Speaker 1: Like, come on, that's the end of that.
Speaker 3: Why all he's just read like if they're not texting
Speaker 3: you back, if he's texting you back saying we've got
Speaker 3: a lot of bookings in tonight.
Speaker 1: Not sure? Maybe like he's not that into you. There's
Speaker 1: the end of that conversation.
Speaker 3: Like if he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if
Speaker 3: he was working till midnight, he would try and get
Speaker 3: around there as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be
Speaker 3: getting someone else to finish his shift for him.
Speaker 4: So the issue is that what's wrong with them that
Speaker 4: they don't like?
Speaker 3: Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario is true,
Speaker 3: this kind of premises like men have gotten worse because
Speaker 3: as women have been able to ask for more of
Speaker 3: what they want, because they've got more independence, they've got
Speaker 3: more choices, they've got what we know, yays, we discuss
Speaker 3: all the time. The dialogue is kind of they don't
Speaker 3: have to put up with this shitty behavior anymore, Like
Speaker 3: that's generally the vibe, right, Like yeah, and so I
Speaker 3: threw away the second from the City Line. But say,
Speaker 3: like when that show started in the late nineties and noughties,
Speaker 3: it was like women tying themselves in knots to believe
Speaker 3: something that wasn't true about this guy seemed more urgent
Speaker 3: than it does now.
Speaker 4: Isn't it interesting though, that show had not a sprinkle
Speaker 4: of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well, it
Speaker 4: was about that they still believed in, like finding the person,
Speaker 4: whereas now there's this real nihilism when it comes to.
Speaker 1: Some of the characters.
Speaker 3: Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always a little bit of
Speaker 3: that with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had
Speaker 3: a lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had
Speaker 3: a lot of hee Like. Anyway, we're not talking about
Speaker 3: sex and the City, but it seems interesting that we've
Speaker 3: changed the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,
Speaker 3: you do have all the choices in the world, right,
Speaker 3: you are a catch.
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you.
Speaker 3: Stop crying, no question, right, and yet you're you're still
Speaker 3: trying to decipher what this stupid fucking text message means.
Speaker 2: Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex
Speaker 2: and the city like they started the taxicab theory right.
Speaker 3: Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I
Speaker 3: would bet my house on that theory.
Speaker 5: I agree. I think that theory is so true.
Speaker 2: So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will
Speaker 2: go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.
Speaker 2: And depending on who they're just dating at the time
Speaker 2: they're ready to settle down, that's the person musical chess.
Speaker 3: But women, women have a light to your lights just
Speaker 3: have to be on at the same time.
Speaker 2: I think women are more and I think this is
Speaker 2: where the taxicab theory is making men really confuse now,
Speaker 2: because women, as you said whole, have more agency over
Speaker 2: their lives and dating, and they're becoming more picky with
Speaker 2: dating in a good way, saying that they're going to
Speaker 2: look for the right person. So their lights only turns
Speaker 2: on on the person that they feel like they're going
Speaker 2: to spend the rest of their life with. For example,
Speaker 2: I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely not going
Speaker 2: to marry you, but you're fun right now, so I'm
Speaker 2: going to keep dating you. If his taxi cab light
Speaker 2: turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out like
Speaker 2: that's not me, of course. And now these men all
Speaker 2: we have on these apps are these men who are
Speaker 2: really confused, going my lights on, my lights on, but
Speaker 2: no one wants to date me, And they aren't able
Speaker 2: to figure out why no one wants to date them.
Speaker 2: They just think all they have to do is turn
Speaker 2: their lights on and they'll be a woman there waiting
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 3: That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he
Speaker 3: doesn't want to go on another date with you and
Speaker 3: has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many
Speaker 3: bookings he's got in his bar.
Speaker 4: His light's not on, his lights on on, No, his isn't.
Speaker 4: And I think that my theory is that there is
Speaker 4: this gap between our desire and our politics right, and
Speaker 4: that we would have this desire. I felt like I was.
Speaker 4: I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about
Speaker 4: what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less
Speaker 4: independent or less. I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,
Speaker 4: and I didn't like how some men made me feel.
Speaker 4: They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I
Speaker 4: don't like this. I feel in control in so many
Speaker 4: avenues of my life.
Speaker 3: And you're amaking for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday
Speaker 3: night plans and they were like.
Speaker 1: Whoa, I don't want to get married crazy.
Speaker 4: I was like, how dare you make me feel like that?
Speaker 4: And there was this term in the New York Times
Speaker 4: article I loved, which was I'm not going to be
Speaker 4: able to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the
Speaker 4: condition of being unable to put words to emotions, and
Speaker 4: it's about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.
Speaker 4: Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring
Speaker 4: up the issue. Again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,
Speaker 4: ask men to talk about it, and then it gives
Speaker 4: way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,
Speaker 4: which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand
Speaker 4: even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.
Speaker 3: I just have to throw a little spanner in the
Speaker 3: works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual
Speaker 3: for me to be when the desire is mismatched in
Speaker 3: a dating situation, like he likes you more than you
Speaker 3: like him, or you like him more than he likes you.
Speaker 1: Neither of us are good at communicating that.
Speaker 3: Emily, you might be because you're very good. You're quite
Speaker 3: good being straightforward. But I know that in my dating life,
Speaker 3: if a guy was asking me if I wanted to
Speaker 3: go out on Saturday night and I didn't, did I
Speaker 3: say was I emotionally super mature and say like, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, really, I think I appreciate you asking me
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah blah blah, but no, I don't
Speaker 3: think we've got a future together. Of course I didn't.
Speaker 3: That was too awkward. I would have said exactly the
Speaker 3: same thing. We've got too many bookings on Saturday night.
Speaker 3: Now I'll call you sometime next week. I think that
Speaker 3: women are confrontational avoidant too. But the thing is is
Speaker 3: that we tell ourselves a different story because we're always
Speaker 3: casting ourselves in the person who's wanting a thing and
Speaker 3: that men have got the thing we want. So we
Speaker 3: feel like in our dating stories it's always them saying no,
Speaker 3: and we're saying but I want, but I want, and
Speaker 3: they're saying no, when actually think like, if you're really
Speaker 3: honest with yourself, don't you think there have been lots
Speaker 3: of times where you haven't treated a person in your
Speaker 3: daily life with the absolute respect They deserve.
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely not. But I do think examples of that
Speaker 4: there is something. And this is not just in dating,
Speaker 4: This is in relationships, This is in couples that have
Speaker 4: been together for forty years. I think this idea that
Speaker 4: some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I
Speaker 4: can't work out whether that is something innate or whether
Speaker 4: that is something There's definitely a socialization element to it
Speaker 4: where I think that men get into some situations and
Speaker 4: go I don't even know what to label this feeling.
Speaker 4: And for women who are very used to articulating how
Speaker 4: they feel and talking to their big group of females
Speaker 4: and something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since
Speaker 4: they were very little like, I think that there is
Speaker 4: a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's
Speaker 4: greater than it's ever been.
Speaker 2: I think it's massive now because men don't talk to
Speaker 2: their friends about things, and it's so evident when you
Speaker 2: go on that first date with a guy because exactly
Speaker 2: I think I even talked about this in the podcast
Speaker 2: where I was asking this guy question after question enough
Speaker 2: to question He was like, what else do you have
Speaker 2: to ask me?
Speaker 5: Instead of asking me a question about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's because it's usually the first
Speaker 2: time he's just a dick, he's a dick. But it's
Speaker 2: also usually the first time where they've actually talked about
Speaker 2: themselves and had someone interested in their life. One time,
Speaker 2: I went on a date with a guy and he
Speaker 2: literally said to me, no one's ever asked me that before.
Speaker 2: The question was what does your sister do for work?
Speaker 2: I genuinely believe no one's actually halstened that before.
Speaker 3: Weird. I want you to tell me though, back to this,
Speaker 3: because so many examples in these stories are about a
Speaker 3: woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,
Speaker 3: and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment
Speaker 3: that his light isn't on or that they're not matched
Speaker 3: or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?
Speaker 3: What should the guy have said? And what do you
Speaker 3: say to a guy who's saying I want to go
Speaker 3: out again on Thursday and you're like, no.
Speaker 5: What I do?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: You're right, It's definitely something I didn't do when I
Speaker 2: first started dating, because I'd always be like, oh, I
Speaker 2: don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Speaker 5: I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 2: But what I do now is that after a date,
Speaker 2: I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy
Speaker 2: getting to know you.
Speaker 5: I feel like we're not compatible, good luck.
Speaker 2: That's very mature, instead of making them go like waiting
Speaker 2: a few days knowing because I know that I would
Speaker 2: do it, and I know that if they like me
Speaker 2: a lot and I don't like them, I know they'll
Speaker 2: spend the next two few days going should I message?
Speaker 5: Should I not?
Speaker 2: What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,
Speaker 2: do you want to hang out this weekend? And then
Speaker 2: I'll take two days to reply, and then I'll be like, hey,
Speaker 2: just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been
Speaker 2: really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit
Speaker 2: to do to someone. I think with online dating now
Speaker 2: is that it's given you the excuse where you can
Speaker 2: have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.
Speaker 2: You have the excuse of it being like so much
Speaker 2: more casual and so much more chill. I know a
Speaker 2: lot of women don't like doing it in person because
Speaker 2: I'm like, you can feel unsafe at sometimes, and I
Speaker 2: think just like message them, message them like straight after
Speaker 2: or a day after and be like, I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about it. I don't want to see you again, but
Speaker 2: I'd much prefer that then, kind of like making what
Speaker 2: I think is happening a bigger deal in my head
Speaker 2: for it to just be crushed with the ghosting, the confusion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, after the break, we are absolutely bursting with recommendations
Speaker 4: for your weekend.
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers.
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes.
Speaker 3: To get us in your ears five days a week,
Speaker 3: and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 5: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2: It is Friday, and we want to help set up
Speaker 2: your weekend with our very best recommendations.
Speaker 5: Holly, what do you.
Speaker 1: Have for us?
Speaker 3: So you know how Jesse likes to recommend the most
Speaker 3: obvious things. Yep, she tells me I do that, but
Speaker 3: like she's like.
Speaker 1: Have you watched Drive to Survive.
Speaker 3: There's show called mad Men that's eight years later she
Speaker 3: discovers the thing and then thenoining thing is is that?
Speaker 5: Then everyone watches it?
Speaker 2: Like now all the other ladders, are watching drivers vive
Speaker 2: because you talked about it five years after.
Speaker 4: Good Luck going to the Melbourne Grand Prix.
Speaker 3: And then oh, anyway, I have a new discovery. It's
Speaker 3: this little known app that teaches you a foreign language.
Speaker 1: Have you heard about this and can teach you a
Speaker 1: language lingo?
Speaker 4: I thought I was telling people last week they had
Speaker 4: too many apps.
Speaker 3: We did.
Speaker 7: Technology because the reason I'm recommending this is it's true
Speaker 7: that last week we did talk about how we've got
Speaker 7: too many apps, and I said I had one hundred
Speaker 7: and thirty five.
Speaker 3: And the outlouders have all been in the group, so
Speaker 3: how many they've got They got one hundred and eighty six.
Speaker 3: I now have one hundred and thirty six because iad dueling?
Speaker 4: Are you ad life crisis?
Speaker 5: Are you going to a country to learn?
Speaker 3: I came back from my holiday where we went overseas
Speaker 3: and we went to Italy, and I'm like, I am
Speaker 3: learning Italian before I step foot in that country again.
Speaker 3: I'm frecking learning Italian because I never feel more stupid
Speaker 3: and dumb. Yeah, and you're like a giant middle aged
Speaker 3: baby than when I'm standing in a shop behind my
Speaker 3: mother who can speak Italian by the way, or whoever
Speaker 3: who is making a real effort to communicate in the language,
Speaker 3: being respectful of the culture.
Speaker 1: And I'm they're pointing at things and going Holla.
Speaker 5: Bread, bread, bread, bread.
Speaker 1: How am I as old as I am?
Speaker 3: And I only speak English. It's embarrassing. There are lots
Speaker 3: of people in my life who speak lots of languages,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, anyway, I'm time poor, time poor. I've
Speaker 3: got broccoli look after I apparently I have children to
Speaker 3: look after too, but has discussed not very good on
Speaker 3: the maternal instincts front. Juliko, you can do six minutes
Speaker 3: a day, and I'm doing six minutes today of Italian. Mate,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be fluent by the end of this.
Speaker 5: I give you two months.
Speaker 4: In two weeks. On this show, I'm gonna ask Collie
Speaker 4: how duweling. She's going to say, you were what? And
Speaker 4: it's going to be like the time Ollie started meditating
Speaker 4: and when she forgot this.
Speaker 2: Is I'm going to open it where you have to
Speaker 2: re download it every time because it just offloads on
Speaker 2: your phone.
Speaker 1: Maybe this is my meditation.
Speaker 3: As I've been sitting there and I go, right, I've
Speaker 3: got six minutes and the little stupid bird pops up
Speaker 3: on my phone and goes, don't forget your Italian lesson.
Speaker 1: Then I'm like, oh goody, and I go over there,
Speaker 1: and firstly, that's a bird.
Speaker 3: And it's trying to encourage me to be a better person.
Speaker 3: And I'm getting on board with the owl.
Speaker 5: Say something go on for sure, no working.
Speaker 1: Sorry to all.
Speaker 3: The Italian out louders and all the out louders, I
Speaker 3: tell you, I am going to have learned how to
Speaker 3: con like a proper person very soon, thanks to the owl.
Speaker 3: It's a little done app called DUELINGO. You'll find it
Speaker 3: in the ass.
Speaker 4: Is it free?
Speaker 1: It is the version I'm doing. It is free.
Speaker 3: And the way it works just quickly is that every
Speaker 3: day little lesson. And some of it is like say
Speaker 3: this into the phone. Some of it is translate this thing.
Speaker 3: I think I chose too high setting. I was a
Speaker 3: bit more ambitious.
Speaker 2: Some of the sentences they make you learn right off
Speaker 2: the battle weird though.
Speaker 5: It's I like your hat. I'm out of everything I
Speaker 5: need to learn in this moment. I like your Hat's probably.
Speaker 3: More also, it thinks were all Americans, because it's like
Speaker 3: a lot of the things it wants you to say
Speaker 3: is I'm sorry, I don't understand your an American. I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: I still don't understand you Australia.
Speaker 4: Okay, my recommendation I have two. The first one I
Speaker 4: thought was a bit of a cop out, and I
Speaker 4: will say, this is my last vegetable recommendation.
Speaker 1: She's trying to bog up my vegetable.
Speaker 4: I am, I am, You're being healthy. The people liked
Speaker 4: the broccoli recommendation. Have you heard a carrot face recommends carrots, kale? Orange?
Speaker 5: Kind of?
Speaker 1: I'm growing carrots, Jesse.
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll tell you how to.
Speaker 1: I don't know when they're ready.
Speaker 3: That's one of the problems that happen. I'm like, how
Speaker 3: do I know when the carrot is ready?
Speaker 1: Anyway?
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, what you have to do is like you
Speaker 4: do your olive oil and your salt and your pepper right,
Speaker 4: and you put it in the oven really hot. We're roasting,
Speaker 4: and we're roasting. And then halfway through this is what
Speaker 4: Nagi does, because she makes us all into little chefs,
Speaker 4: is you put garlic on it. Because if you put
Speaker 4: garlic on it too early, then you burn the garlic.
Speaker 1: Roasted vegetables are really the secret to everything.
Speaker 4: They are, and so you put it on and then
Speaker 4: you have them. And we've been having our broccoli and
Speaker 4: our carrots without aldi spanicopter.
Speaker 2: It's just the same recipe as the broccoli one is.
Speaker 4: Pretty much except the one with the broccoli had lemon
Speaker 4: and parmesan.
Speaker 3: If you remember, you've basically discovered that vegetables don't have
Speaker 3: to be boring.
Speaker 4: I like, exactly, vegetables are actually young. Okay, But I
Speaker 4: have another recommendation which is the best thing I read
Speaker 4: on the internet this week. You know how you said
Speaker 4: you four hours of TikTok before me. I've now gone
Speaker 4: to four hours of substack.
Speaker 5: You are a better pastor I am.
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 4: Now there's a rite and write some of the best
Speaker 4: stuff on the internet. He wrote this article that's been
Speaker 4: republished everywhere called how social Media shortens your life, and
Speaker 4: he says everything.
Speaker 5: Yeah says on social media my four hour TikTok.
Speaker 4: Yeah, every social media user has experienced the theft of
Speaker 4: their time. You may log on to quickly check your notifications,
Speaker 4: and before you know it, half an hour has gone
Speaker 4: by and you're still on the platform, unable to account
Speaker 4: for where the time went. The phenomenon even has a name,
Speaker 4: a thirty minute ick Factor, and he goes on to
Speaker 4: explain how the experience of time works and what social
Speaker 4: media is doing to our sense of past, present, and future.
Speaker 4: And he's written about also how insane it is that
Speaker 4: you can be on TikTok and flick and it's like,
Speaker 4: tell me what the last video was he watched, or
Speaker 4: tell me what the last thing was, and like you
Speaker 4: it's just yeah, it is like you are in this
Speaker 4: temporal place that is so bad for our brains, which
Speaker 4: we all know to be true. But it was a
Speaker 4: really interesting analysis of how social media makes you feel
Speaker 4: and what you can do to make yourself really feel
Speaker 4: time and all the like variations in activities and all
Speaker 4: of that, and what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2: Okay, I have a confession, and I feel like you
Speaker 2: guys are not gonna like this recommendation. Oh no, I've
Speaker 2: been on the mystery toy bandwagon.
Speaker 1: Oh like the what la boo boos? My dad?
Speaker 3: Can you have a conversation like yes, okay, she only
Speaker 3: likes buying things that she doesn't know what they are.
Speaker 2: I cannot even explain it. So mystery toys you might
Speaker 2: have seen all of you would have seen labooboos all
Speaker 2: over the internets. Basically, these stores, they're massive in Asia.
Speaker 2: They've only just taken off here in Australia like eight
Speaker 2: months later, and there's like this big store, like a
Speaker 2: toy store, where all these little boxes are wrapped up
Speaker 2: in these mystery boxes where you actually don't know what
Speaker 2: is inside them. So they have like different series of toys.
Speaker 2: So you have like powerpuff Girls toys, you have Stitch toys,
Speaker 2: you have La Boo Boos.
Speaker 5: And the thing is is like in each.
Speaker 2: Series of toys, there's different toys you can get amongst
Speaker 2: that series. So you can get different versions of Stitch,
Speaker 2: different versions our puff Girls. Yes, but you don't know
Speaker 2: which one you're going to get. Okay, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: collect like people collect these. I'm not saying you have
Speaker 2: to collect them. But I was having a particular bad day.
Speaker 2: I think it was after this text message from my man,
Speaker 2: and I was like I just need to feel really
Speaker 2: good about something, and I walked over to PopMart in
Speaker 2: the CBD. It is packed with people twenty four to
Speaker 2: seven and they're now making it two levels. I bought
Speaker 2: one toy from the series.
Speaker 5: I bought this series called.
Speaker 2: Cry Baby, which is very fitting with my mood. There
Speaker 2: was like monster series, and the thing is you have
Speaker 2: to choose a series where you like all of them
Speaker 2: in them because I don't want to be disappointed by one.
Speaker 2: So I got mine and then I came into the
Speaker 2: office and I opened it up and I've never felt
Speaker 2: so much joy in that week. And when I opened
Speaker 2: that toy, you feel like a child, like on Christmas
Speaker 2: Day when you're opening a present that you don't know
Speaker 2: what it's going to be.
Speaker 4: Can I ask questions? What do you then do with it?
Speaker 4: What do you do with it?
Speaker 5: That's a good question.
Speaker 2: So the one I got, I have it on my
Speaker 2: desk and I kind of just look at it and
Speaker 2: it's really cute. My friend got me one which is
Speaker 2: like a Mickey Mouse one that was a key ring
Speaker 2: that I put on my handbag.
Speaker 1: This is exactly what my fifteen year old daughter does.
Speaker 2: And then it like fell off my handbag in the
Speaker 2: city and this man tapped me on the shoulder and
Speaker 2: I was like, what, don't tap me on the shoulder
Speaker 2: and he was like, you dropped that, and I was like,
Speaker 2: that's the most embarrassing thing I could have ever dropped,
Speaker 2: and then just like it was this white, little fluffy
Speaker 2: thing that was rolling away from me.
Speaker 3: We could talk about this for a year. It is
Speaker 3: genuinely could, because it's the extension of childhood. It's rampant consumerism,
Speaker 3: it's gamification, and there are lots of those shops of
Speaker 3: walking distance of our office.
Speaker 5: It's good, it's fine.
Speaker 1: Which ones are you obsessed with?
Speaker 3: Again?
Speaker 5: What's the line the cry Baby Monster series?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll leave it there. I'm so sorry, am I
Speaker 3: feel like I've been very judging. I've been very judgy.
Speaker 5: I feel like this whole episode I just aird.
Speaker 1: Essentially, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be judging, but I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 3: that is all we've got time for today. Out louders,
Speaker 3: massive thank you to all of you, and to our
Speaker 3: amazing team who help us put the show together, and
Speaker 3: to you Emily Vernam you guys read this out.
Speaker 4: A big thank you to our team, our group executive
Speaker 4: producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Emilin Gazillis.
Speaker 2: Our senior audio producers Leah Porge's video producer Josh Green,
Speaker 2: and our junior content producers Coca and Tessa.
Speaker 4: Before we go, we actually have a subscriber episode that
Speaker 4: we dropped yesterday and it is a series of dilemmas.
Speaker 4: One who's started there is one dilemma, and I just
Speaker 4: feel like we've all been in this situation where this
Speaker 4: woman employed her friend who's an architect to help her
Speaker 4: on the project that is her home at the moment,
Speaker 4: and things have gone very very badly. Also, are you
Speaker 4: a leftover family? We talk about the politics of the
Speaker 4: leftovers because someone is committing a social faux pa. Check
Speaker 4: out the link in the show notes to listen. Mamma
Speaker 4: Mia is cooking up something very exciting and we need
Speaker 4: your brilliant opinions to help us make even better content.
Speaker 4: And if there is something the out louders have, it is.
Speaker 1: Opinions, really good opinions too.
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Speaker 5: Bye bye.
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