WEBVTT - The Dating Experience Women Keep Having 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.221 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.982 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.942 --> 0:00:23.982 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what 0:00:24.021 --> 0:00:27.222 women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifteenth of August. 0:00:27.462 --> 0:00:31.302 My name is Hollywayne, right, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vernham. 0:00:31.422 --> 0:00:33.662 And here's what's on our agender for today. 0:00:34.101 --> 0:00:38.062 Is maternal instinct really a lie? I have a feeling 0:00:38.101 --> 0:00:40.261 that Holly and I passionately disagree about this. 0:00:40.582 --> 0:00:46.342 Quite possibly mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and her neutic labor. 0:00:46.902 --> 0:00:47.582 Say that, right? 0:00:47.662 --> 0:00:48.262 I think you did. 0:00:49.182 --> 0:00:51.702 There's a whole lot of fancy new words to describe 0:00:51.742 --> 0:00:55.742 the same thing. The realities of dating men. Emily Vernon 0:00:56.102 --> 0:00:57.942 is going to translate. 0:00:58.302 --> 0:01:01.422 And we have some recommendations for your weekend, including a 0:01:01.422 --> 0:01:04.581 mysterious new hobby, a hack in learning a new skill, 0:01:04.941 --> 0:01:08.822 and turning a basic bitch vegetable into a delicious dish. 0:01:08.941 --> 0:01:12.462 But for a few nights ago, I was scrolling on TikTok, 0:01:12.542 --> 0:01:14.262 like the four hours I set aside every night for 0:01:14.382 --> 0:01:17.862 my TikTok scroll, and I came across this crator named Brandon, 0:01:17.982 --> 0:01:21.942 and he spoke to my soul. He was walking alongside 0:01:21.942 --> 0:01:24.301 this river and he was talking into the camera about 0:01:24.342 --> 0:01:28.941 how he's an outsidey person, not an outdoorsy person. Okay, 0:01:29.142 --> 0:01:32.182 And I immediately clicked into another video of his where 0:01:32.222 --> 0:01:33.902 he explained what he meant by that. 0:01:34.022 --> 0:01:35.382 This is what he said, We. 0:01:35.542 --> 0:01:38.381 As a society are still not knowing the difference between 0:01:38.382 --> 0:01:43.782 outdoorsy and outsidey. Okay. Outdoorsy is nature for adventure. Outsidey 0:01:43.822 --> 0:01:48.542 is nature for leisure. So for example, backpacking no bever 0:01:48.622 --> 0:01:53.462 g nails, yes, swimming in the ocean, no, strolling upon 0:01:53.542 --> 0:01:58.382 the shore, yes, mountaineering no, Mary. 0:01:58.102 --> 0:02:04.742 Oliver, Yes, I love this so much. I have some 0:02:04.862 --> 0:02:10.422 questions camping outsidey or outdoors outdoors outdoorsy definitely, but glamping 0:02:10.862 --> 0:02:16.302 outsidey okay, because I I think I'm outside And the 0:02:16.382 --> 0:02:18.782 reason for this is that I went on a three 0:02:18.862 --> 0:02:21.582 day hike to Berney Island, remember that, right. 0:02:21.582 --> 0:02:23.381 Yes, I've been on a similar line. 0:02:23.502 --> 0:02:27.422 Yes, yes, because we're hikers and we're very outdoorsy. That's 0:02:27.462 --> 0:02:28.142 what it looks like. 0:02:28.262 --> 0:02:28.982 But the beauty of. 0:02:28.902 --> 0:02:31.142 This hike was that it was an outsidey hike. 0:02:31.262 --> 0:02:32.502 It was what do you mean by that? 0:02:32.622 --> 0:02:35.102 Okay? So you go and have a shower, and when 0:02:35.142 --> 0:02:37.822 you're in the shower, it's open and you look out 0:02:37.862 --> 0:02:40.942 onto the wilderness. But the shower's warm. You got your 0:02:40.942 --> 0:02:43.062 shampoo and conditioner, and you gotta the last of champagne 0:02:43.062 --> 0:02:45.502 on the windows. That is outside. 0:02:45.542 --> 0:02:46.422 That's outsidey. 0:02:46.742 --> 0:02:48.582 I did the same thing. So you walk, so you 0:02:48.662 --> 0:02:50.822 do the outdoorsy bit, but you stay every night in 0:02:50.822 --> 0:02:51.502 a beautiful lot. 0:02:51.582 --> 0:02:53.422 And that's why outside a bit. And there's wine. 0:02:53.582 --> 0:02:55.822 Yeah, so I think I know what my line is. Okay, 0:02:56.102 --> 0:03:00.901 I am outside because I need a coffee, preferably Barista made. 0:03:01.462 --> 0:03:03.942 And I think that the problem with going and camping, 0:03:04.262 --> 0:03:07.942 like my friend recently went to Canada camped the whole time. Wow, 0:03:07.982 --> 0:03:10.582 way too close to the bears. Needs best brain stuff. 0:03:10.582 --> 0:03:12.622 I was like, I'm happy to see the bear from 0:03:12.662 --> 0:03:14.742 my cab, from my hotel. I don't need to hear 0:03:14.782 --> 0:03:16.982 the bear chloring it the thing? And where do you 0:03:16.982 --> 0:03:19.302 get your Barista coffee? What are you am outside? 0:03:19.542 --> 0:03:25.182 Or I definitely outside the borderline? Insidey outside? 0:03:25.382 --> 0:03:27.422 Barely walk every day? 0:03:27.542 --> 0:03:30.702 I do outside, do my outside walk. But the way 0:03:30.782 --> 0:03:33.542 I know if you're someone's outsider versus outdoorsy is how 0:03:33.542 --> 0:03:37.142 they approach holidaying, Like what are your activities you plan 0:03:37.262 --> 0:03:39.542 for your holiday? Are you a hotel family or your 0:03:39.662 --> 0:03:42.822 hiking family. My biggest fear is marrying into a family 0:03:42.902 --> 0:03:45.142 that like to go to walks on their holidays for 0:03:45.262 --> 0:03:46.062 no reason. 0:03:46.542 --> 0:03:49.102 And they have Like I think a sign you're outdoorsy 0:03:49.142 --> 0:03:51.742 is that you own hiking boots. Yes, like you actually 0:03:51.782 --> 0:03:54.702 own them. Are you married to an outdoorsy Holly's married 0:03:55.622 --> 0:03:56.022 You're with. 0:03:56.022 --> 0:04:03.222 An outdoorsys to a very outdoorsy person. And I am outsidey. 0:04:03.462 --> 0:04:05.822 In fact, I'm very outsidey. I like to be outside, 0:04:06.502 --> 0:04:08.102 borderline outdoors. 0:04:07.622 --> 0:04:11.782 Because you touch the outdoors with your If I can't 0:04:11.822 --> 0:04:14.182 go outside, like if the weather's really really terrible, I 0:04:14.182 --> 0:04:15.302 actually get quite sad. 0:04:15.382 --> 0:04:18.101 Like I like to be in nature, as they say, 0:04:18.502 --> 0:04:22.142 But I am not outdoorsy like Brent is. Like I 0:04:22.181 --> 0:04:25.061 can camp. I do it once a year with my friends. 0:04:25.301 --> 0:04:27.541 Have written a book about that. But I'm not like 0:04:28.022 --> 0:04:30.621 encouraging it, you know what I mean. I can go 0:04:30.741 --> 0:04:32.861 for a walk. Years ago, before kids, Brent and I 0:04:32.902 --> 0:04:35.181 went and did the Larapinta trail and it was amazing 0:04:35.381 --> 0:04:38.381 sad and I loved it. But have I done anything 0:04:38.421 --> 0:04:39.021 like that since? 0:04:39.222 --> 0:04:40.621 No? Do I encourage it. 0:04:41.101 --> 0:04:44.061 No another sign you're outdoorsy, Holly. You can answer this question, 0:04:44.101 --> 0:04:47.261 and this is the ultimate question. Do you swim in 0:04:47.301 --> 0:04:48.421 the ocean in winter? 0:04:48.821 --> 0:04:49.021 Oh? 0:04:49.782 --> 0:04:51.701 I reckon, that's it, because I'll swim in the ocean 0:04:51.702 --> 0:04:54.262 on a nice day. If it's a little cold, there's 0:04:54.262 --> 0:04:55.462 no way I'm diving in. 0:04:55.582 --> 0:04:57.861 I don't go in proper winter, but I do love 0:04:57.902 --> 0:04:59.661 to swim in the ocean, and I like to swim 0:04:59.702 --> 0:05:00.181 in rivers. 0:05:00.222 --> 0:05:01.461 I like to swim rivers. 0:05:01.702 --> 0:05:04.782 No, I like, I like to swim anywhere that isn't 0:05:04.821 --> 0:05:08.022 in a swimming pool basically, and so I do really 0:05:08.142 --> 0:05:10.501 like that. If it's it's freezing, I'm not going in. 0:05:10.541 --> 0:05:14.741 I'm not crazy, but I reckon. I'm outsidey without doorsy 0:05:14.861 --> 0:05:18.061 rising yes, but I'm definitely not proper outdoorsy. When Brent 0:05:18.101 --> 0:05:20.501 and I talk about, you know, when we no longer 0:05:20.582 --> 0:05:23.141 have responsibilities and we do whatever, He's like, I'm going 0:05:23.222 --> 0:05:25.222 to go on that twenty eight day high in Western 0:05:25.262 --> 0:05:27.541 Australia happen and he gets my joy out of them there, 0:05:27.582 --> 0:05:29.782 And I'm like, and I will come and meet you 0:05:29.902 --> 0:05:32.541 every now and again as somewhere with a really nice. 0:05:32.381 --> 0:05:37.702 Cocktail, a substack newsletter dropped in my inbox this week 0:05:37.741 --> 0:05:40.741 with the subject line the maternal instinct is a lie. 0:05:41.342 --> 0:05:44.222 And immediately I found that I got my back up, 0:05:44.342 --> 0:05:47.541 which was a surprising response, and I want to work 0:05:47.621 --> 0:05:51.142 through why with you both. The author of this newsletter, 0:05:51.181 --> 0:05:54.782 her name is Sarah Peterson, interviews Chelsea Conner Boy who 0:05:54.821 --> 0:05:57.301 has written a book called mother Brain. And here's what 0:05:57.342 --> 0:06:01.501 she says. This idea that women's capacity for caregiving is 0:06:01.541 --> 0:06:05.181 wholly innate, automatic, and is particular to women is a myth. 0:06:05.741 --> 0:06:09.101 She says, maternal instinct paves the way for the belief 0:06:09.101 --> 0:06:12.541 that women meant to birth children, that they're equipped with 0:06:12.662 --> 0:06:16.421 everything they need without needing any additional time or support. 0:06:17.022 --> 0:06:20.621 The myth of the maternal instinct is also, she says, 0:06:20.702 --> 0:06:24.142 behind the complete lack of clinical care during the postpartum period. 0:06:24.741 --> 0:06:28.182 She believes in the parental brain, something that develops with experience, 0:06:28.582 --> 0:06:31.541 which anyone can have access to. And when I read 0:06:31.582 --> 0:06:33.621 that nuanced argument, I went, yeah, I think I believe 0:06:33.621 --> 0:06:36.101 in the parental brain too. I quite like that it's 0:06:36.142 --> 0:06:39.981 also used, she argues, to justify women staying at home 0:06:40.061 --> 0:06:42.381 and men going back to work because women have the 0:06:42.462 --> 0:06:43.661 maternal instinct rights. 0:06:43.741 --> 0:06:46.221 As we've mentioned several times on the show lately, suddenly 0:06:46.262 --> 0:06:48.981 this seems to be a big issue of debate exactly right, 0:06:49.061 --> 0:06:51.421 whether or not women should be allowed to have jobs. Holly, 0:06:51.662 --> 0:06:54.942 did you find yourself agreeing with connor Boy's argument. Yes, 0:06:55.222 --> 0:06:59.981 But I think it's a very dangerous discussion because arguing 0:07:00.142 --> 0:07:06.101 against maternal instinct can also be seen as devaluing mother's 0:07:06.421 --> 0:07:09.421 work and motherhood in general. And I would never want 0:07:09.421 --> 0:07:13.502 to do that because I think parents in general could 0:07:13.502 --> 0:07:16.422 do with a lot more recognition and support, and I 0:07:16.502 --> 0:07:17.982 don't want to do that. And I can see that 0:07:18.062 --> 0:07:21.582 this headline is a trap to get women to walk 0:07:21.622 --> 0:07:24.021 into and then fight with each other about it. But 0:07:24.542 --> 0:07:28.302 having said all that, from my personal experience, if I'm 0:07:28.342 --> 0:07:31.542 telling the absolute, unvarnished truth of whether or not I 0:07:31.582 --> 0:07:35.462 thought I had maternal instincts, no, I don't think I did. 0:07:35.782 --> 0:07:37.742 How did you feel you learned it? 0:07:38.262 --> 0:07:43.102 I genuinely believe, again for me, only for me, that 0:07:43.262 --> 0:07:46.462 when I left the hospital with our first child in 0:07:46.502 --> 0:07:50.182 that moment, I had no more idea than my partner, 0:07:50.182 --> 0:07:53.742 Brent did about how to keep that baby alive. And 0:07:53.821 --> 0:07:57.182 I believe that because at least in the first instance, 0:07:57.982 --> 0:08:00.701 that baby was dependent on my body to stay alive. 0:08:00.821 --> 0:08:04.381 I had to learn fast, and I had to learn first, Right, 0:08:04.542 --> 0:08:07.782 So you're the one who's first in the line to 0:08:07.902 --> 0:08:10.262 figure this shit out as much as you can and 0:08:10.302 --> 0:08:13.381 then you pass it along, right. But to be honest, 0:08:13.742 --> 0:08:15.782 I don't know that I did ever learn it, like 0:08:15.941 --> 0:08:19.102 I genuinely think. And this is why, I mean, I 0:08:19.142 --> 0:08:21.222 feel very vulnerable admitting this, because it's probably one of 0:08:21.262 --> 0:08:24.502 the worst things a woman, a mother can admit, Like 0:08:24.662 --> 0:08:27.542 nothing was easy or instinctive about it. Like the only 0:08:27.662 --> 0:08:30.502 thing that was easy or instinctive about becoming a mother 0:08:30.582 --> 0:08:32.862 for me, and in this I'm very lucky it was 0:08:32.902 --> 0:08:36.302 the love right that was definitely there. So the other thing, 0:08:36.342 --> 0:08:39.062 if any woman ever admits to how difficult she has 0:08:39.062 --> 0:08:41.462 found motherhood, she has to put a massive caveat as 0:08:41.502 --> 0:08:44.342 I am doing right now, which is that I adore 0:08:44.382 --> 0:08:46.782 my children and they are, you know, the joy of 0:08:46.822 --> 0:08:48.862 my life. If anything, the fact that I wasn't very 0:08:48.862 --> 0:08:51.262 maternal before I had them has meant that is even 0:08:51.302 --> 0:08:54.262 more of a surprise and a delight and a source 0:08:54.302 --> 0:08:57.582 of joy and pride for me, no question. But I 0:08:57.622 --> 0:08:59.862 never feel more insecure than I do when I'm in 0:08:59.902 --> 0:09:02.342 a room of confident mothers, like I just was never 0:09:02.422 --> 0:09:05.462 a confident mother. I never knew and I still don't. 0:09:05.502 --> 0:09:07.742 Like I'm at the doctor when they were little, I'm 0:09:07.742 --> 0:09:09.062 at the doctor when I shouldn't be at the doctor. 0:09:09.102 --> 0:09:10.782 I'm not at the when I should be at the doctor. 0:09:11.182 --> 0:09:14.822 I'm not advocating for them in situations when they really 0:09:14.902 --> 0:09:18.182 might have needed my advocation. But then on the other hand, 0:09:18.262 --> 0:09:20.062 I worried and stressed way too much about things it 0:09:20.062 --> 0:09:22.462 didn't matter, Like I felt like I was always getting 0:09:22.502 --> 0:09:25.662 it wrong, and I would be often around groups of women, 0:09:25.662 --> 0:09:28.262 and even now with teenagers. They bring me their issues 0:09:28.262 --> 0:09:30.782 and all people have issues. I'm not crossing any boundaries there. 0:09:31.142 --> 0:09:33.102 And most of the time my instinct is I have 0:09:33.182 --> 0:09:37.382 no fucking idea. And when I'm around women who seem 0:09:37.542 --> 0:09:40.702 to be very confident mothers and just seem to not 0:09:40.782 --> 0:09:42.382 I'm not going to say that it's easy for them, 0:09:42.382 --> 0:09:45.102 because I don't believe that it's easy for anybody, but 0:09:45.342 --> 0:09:49.142 like that they do seem to just know like what 0:09:49.302 --> 0:09:51.662 to do, what to feed them, how to be, how 0:09:51.702 --> 0:09:52.822 to care. 0:09:52.782 --> 0:09:54.222 And do you think that's an instinct? 0:09:54.502 --> 0:09:56.422 I think that maybe can't we accept And I know 0:09:56.462 --> 0:09:58.342 this is always my position, and I'm very boring in 0:09:58.382 --> 0:10:03.502 this regard that there's a spectrum that involves nature, nurture, science, environment, 0:10:03.902 --> 0:10:07.142 that some of us have much stronger maternal instincts than others, 0:10:07.342 --> 0:10:09.942 and some women do and some women don't. And like, 0:10:10.742 --> 0:10:12.902 as I say, like, I love being a mother, I 0:10:12.942 --> 0:10:16.142 absolutely love it, but I'm not a naturally maternal person. 0:10:16.142 --> 0:10:18.261 No one ever makes me office mother, right, Like, I 0:10:18.342 --> 0:10:21.342 think that deeply people understand that if they were going 0:10:21.382 --> 0:10:24.662 to cast me in the role of office mom, den mother, friend, 0:10:24.702 --> 0:10:26.582 group mother, they would get eaten by a bear. 0:10:26.742 --> 0:10:29.902 Like I just I think they deeply know that, whereas. 0:10:29.622 --> 0:10:32.822 We all know some women don't we who were just 0:10:32.942 --> 0:10:33.862 they oosee it? 0:10:34.222 --> 0:10:34.902 Yeah, yeah. 0:10:34.902 --> 0:10:38.422 And so I think, of course there is a maternal instinct, 0:10:39.102 --> 0:10:42.942 but I don't think that every woman has it to 0:10:42.982 --> 0:10:48.462 the same amount. And I do think that parental instincts 0:10:48.462 --> 0:10:51.102 and parental brain can be learnt and can be learned 0:10:51.102 --> 0:10:51.542 by anybody. 0:10:51.582 --> 0:10:53.342 I have one hundred thoughts on that. But first, what 0:10:53.422 --> 0:10:54.142 do you think him? 0:10:54.662 --> 0:10:58.462 When I read this, I felt betrayed because I was 0:10:58.502 --> 0:11:01.342 always thought similar to your point, Holly. I felt like 0:11:01.822 --> 0:11:04.382 even all my friends who don't have kids. I just 0:11:04.502 --> 0:11:08.822 knew who out of us would be really really good mothers, 0:11:08.862 --> 0:11:10.942 and who out of I'd be like, I'm not too sure. 0:11:11.382 --> 0:11:13.222 And I was in that I'm not too sure camp 0:11:13.222 --> 0:11:15.702 because just when there's like a baby in our group, 0:11:16.062 --> 0:11:18.342 the way my friends react to that baby is so 0:11:18.502 --> 0:11:22.062 different to the way I react. And I've always been 0:11:22.102 --> 0:11:24.142 told that if I were to have kids, when I 0:11:24.182 --> 0:11:27.302 have a kid, that will immediately change. You'll immediately get it, 0:11:27.382 --> 0:11:29.142 You'll immediately know exactly what to do. 0:11:29.222 --> 0:11:29.862 You'll get that. 0:11:29.902 --> 0:11:32.222 Mother love all babies, but you'll love your hair. 0:11:32.342 --> 0:11:32.542 Yeah. 0:11:32.702 --> 0:11:34.622 And I was like, Okay, that's fine, I'm chill now. 0:11:34.662 --> 0:11:35.902 And then I read this and I was like, wait 0:11:35.942 --> 0:11:38.342 a minute, what if that doesn't happen to me. It 0:11:38.462 --> 0:11:40.342 kind of scares me to the point of like, are 0:11:40.382 --> 0:11:43.022 we telling women that just as long as you have 0:11:43.062 --> 0:11:44.862 a child, like you'll actually get it and it'll be 0:11:44.902 --> 0:11:47.262 fine after that, because that's what I've been told. 0:11:47.622 --> 0:11:52.342 This is my theory is that we're potentially confusing two things. 0:11:52.382 --> 0:11:55.182 On the one hand, there's maternal instinct, and on the 0:11:55.222 --> 0:12:00.822 other hand, there is this picture symbol of the ideal mother. Right, 0:12:01.022 --> 0:12:04.702 no question and I think we're sort of conflating the two. 0:12:04.782 --> 0:12:06.822 So I think it's a lot about the definition of 0:12:06.822 --> 0:12:09.462 what the maternal instinct is. Because what you just described hole, 0:12:10.422 --> 0:12:13.142 I thought was the maternal instinct. So the sense you're 0:12:13.142 --> 0:12:15.782 always doing it wrong, that's a maternal instinct, I don't 0:12:15.782 --> 0:12:17.982 think it is. I see, Yeah, that's interesting, right, is 0:12:17.982 --> 0:12:20.462 that I feel as though, I mean. 0:12:20.462 --> 0:12:24.102 I think it's a common maternal experience, anxiety. But I 0:12:24.142 --> 0:12:26.942 think the idea that you'll know best, you always really 0:12:26.982 --> 0:12:28.982 know your child, no one knows them better than you do. 0:12:29.102 --> 0:12:32.222 You'll know when it's serious, you'll know, well the cries mean, 0:12:32.342 --> 0:12:32.742 you'll know. 0:12:34.022 --> 0:12:35.782 That's all the stuff that is sold to us as 0:12:35.822 --> 0:12:36.582 the paternal. 0:12:36.342 --> 0:12:38.262 So I looked it up and it said maternal instinct. 0:12:38.262 --> 0:12:41.022 It refers to the natural and inherent tendency of a 0:12:41.062 --> 0:12:44.062 mother to nurture and care for her child. Right, Because 0:12:44.062 --> 0:12:46.182 you spoke about knowing you love the baby, and for 0:12:46.222 --> 0:12:48.022 a lot of people, a lot of people, I know, 0:12:48.582 --> 0:12:51.662 that wasn't the first feeling, exactly the very that's very common, 0:12:51.782 --> 0:12:55.382 right experience was the first feeling was terror and like 0:12:55.822 --> 0:12:58.222 and they say I felt protective. I knew if someone 0:12:58.302 --> 0:13:00.862 walked into that room, I'd say, I'm looking after this 0:13:00.862 --> 0:13:03.422 this baby, But was it love? Not really? 0:13:03.502 --> 0:13:03.662 Right? 0:13:03.702 --> 0:13:05.662 So there is this incredible spectrum, and I think the 0:13:05.702 --> 0:13:07.942 issue is that we keep trying to make motherhood universal, 0:13:08.182 --> 0:13:10.822 and the experience of motherhood is not universal. It is 0:13:10.902 --> 0:13:13.862 so specific. But I remember walking through the door with 0:13:13.942 --> 0:13:16.102 Luna in her capsule and putting her on the floor 0:13:16.142 --> 0:13:18.822 and CHILEI the dogs started kind of wandering towards her, 0:13:18.862 --> 0:13:21.662 and I have never in my life had that feeling. 0:13:21.702 --> 0:13:22.982 I can't even explain it. 0:13:22.982 --> 0:13:23.502 It was like. 0:13:24.422 --> 0:13:27.942 I saw flashes of what was going to happen. It 0:13:27.982 --> 0:13:30.942 was protective, but it was more than that. It was 0:13:31.142 --> 0:13:33.942 enormous anxiety. It was all of those things. And I 0:13:34.062 --> 0:13:38.182 worry that there is something very specific that happens when 0:13:38.222 --> 0:13:41.462 you carry a baby and you have that baby, right, 0:13:41.622 --> 0:13:44.542 there is something specific. We know that there are hormonal, biological, 0:13:44.622 --> 0:13:48.102 neurological changes and that's matrescence, and there's an incredible emerging field. 0:13:48.782 --> 0:13:50.782 Does that mean that if you don't do those things 0:13:51.302 --> 0:13:54.222 then you don't have a parental instinct? 0:13:54.422 --> 0:13:57.582 Absolutely not, because to be and I don't want to again, 0:13:57.662 --> 0:13:59.022 I don't want to ever make it sound like I'm 0:13:59.102 --> 0:14:01.142 d value in motherhood because the last thing I'd want 0:14:01.182 --> 0:14:04.582 to do, but feeling protective over my new baby. 0:14:04.702 --> 0:14:06.222 Brent was also protective over that. 0:14:06.462 --> 0:14:09.102 And that's the thing is that we talk about maternal instinct, 0:14:09.382 --> 0:14:11.942 I think because we're using it to kind of prop 0:14:12.022 --> 0:14:16.182 up this ideal mother thing, which is an absolute lie 0:14:16.222 --> 0:14:18.942 that has been used as a weapon against women to 0:14:18.982 --> 0:14:22.502 be this ever giving, ever nurturing. 0:14:22.342 --> 0:14:24.142 Like you have to do everything because you have the mother, 0:14:24.342 --> 0:14:27.702 and also self sacrificing. I mean, how many times do 0:14:27.742 --> 0:14:30.862 you hear people, you know, famous people being interviewed and 0:14:30.862 --> 0:14:33.142 they're like, my mother gave up everything, everything so that 0:14:33.182 --> 0:14:36.502 I could have my dream, and that's that ideal, whereas 0:14:36.502 --> 0:14:37.782 I never say that about fathers. 0:14:37.782 --> 0:14:40.942 By the way, paternal instinct, which is equally a thing, 0:14:41.702 --> 0:14:44.062 is I would say exactly the same. I think it 0:14:44.102 --> 0:14:47.222 can manifest slightly differently. But there is all this research 0:14:47.262 --> 0:14:49.942 too about in the case of adoption or the case 0:14:49.982 --> 0:14:52.382 of grandparents, like the carrying of a baby close to 0:14:52.422 --> 0:14:56.142 your body releases these hormones that make you super super protective. 0:14:56.742 --> 0:14:59.222 And my worry with undermining the whole idea of a 0:14:59.302 --> 0:15:04.182 maternal instinct is that mothers are more anxious today than 0:15:04.182 --> 0:15:06.462 they've ever been in all of history. And is that 0:15:06.542 --> 0:15:10.622 because they've been undermined? Is there a way in which 0:15:10.662 --> 0:15:13.382 all the expertise and the intellectualism and the books and 0:15:13.422 --> 0:15:15.062 the podcasts and the bla and you need to have 0:15:15.142 --> 0:15:17.262 a PhD In all of the things, and if you 0:15:17.342 --> 0:15:21.542 learned to breastfeed yet and makes women feel like they 0:15:21.582 --> 0:15:25.502 are so fundamentally incapable of doing any of this that 0:15:25.582 --> 0:15:28.222 they need all the advice all the time from the experts. 0:15:28.942 --> 0:15:31.662 And there is some truth. I mean, I had to 0:15:31.782 --> 0:15:34.622 learn manually how to breastfeed, like there was nothing instinctive 0:15:34.622 --> 0:15:35.982 about that, and I was never good at it and 0:15:36.022 --> 0:15:39.222 I had to stop. But I think that there are 0:15:39.262 --> 0:15:44.102 some parts of reacting to a baby's cry or whatever 0:15:44.142 --> 0:15:48.822 it is that maybe mothers and fathers need to trust 0:15:48.862 --> 0:15:51.662 themselves a little bit more and that might actually help 0:15:51.702 --> 0:15:53.742 with the anxiety and to kind of sit there and go. 0:15:53.782 --> 0:15:56.102 And I was reassured by some health professionals it's like 0:15:56.782 --> 0:15:58.222 you've got to kind of trust that you know what 0:15:58.262 --> 0:16:01.622 you're doing. Something has happened to you in your brain. 0:16:01.902 --> 0:16:05.542 The circuits have all changed that have programmed you to 0:16:05.582 --> 0:16:08.182 try and look after this thing. What's helped me is 0:16:08.222 --> 0:16:09.942 to go the guilt and the anxiety in all of 0:16:09.942 --> 0:16:12.582 those things the second to all of them kick in, 0:16:12.622 --> 0:16:14.062 and for me, they've been in the realm of normal. 0:16:14.142 --> 0:16:16.422 I know for some people they aren't. It's like, oh, 0:16:16.462 --> 0:16:18.782 this is helping me, this is helping me. That image 0:16:18.782 --> 0:16:22.222 I had of this how horrible thing just happening to Luna, 0:16:22.502 --> 0:16:24.662 I'm going to file that away as my brain doing 0:16:24.742 --> 0:16:25.182 its job. 0:16:25.422 --> 0:16:29.622 I think also, what maternal instinct refers to is it 0:16:29.662 --> 0:16:32.662 doesn't also consider like women who choose to adopt. But 0:16:32.822 --> 0:16:35.102 what this interview did was that it shows that there 0:16:35.182 --> 0:16:38.862 is scientific evidence that people who are around a baby 0:16:38.942 --> 0:16:41.702 in those initial phases there is a change in their 0:16:41.742 --> 0:16:45.342 brain chemistry, but there hasn't been enough research into it 0:16:45.382 --> 0:16:48.702 to actually explain what that change is and how it 0:16:48.782 --> 0:16:51.182 like manifests. So I want to know, with both of 0:16:51.222 --> 0:16:54.622 your partners, do you know when they had that change? 0:16:55.142 --> 0:16:57.262 I think it was gradual, as I think it was. 0:16:57.342 --> 0:16:59.622 And maybe that's how issue too, is that maternal instinct 0:16:59.662 --> 0:17:02.102 just builders this thing that is imbued upon you the 0:17:02.102 --> 0:17:04.382 second you have a baby, Like I don't think that's right. 0:17:04.581 --> 0:17:07.222 I genuinely think and one of the examples is like 0:17:07.341 --> 0:17:09.502 so for my second child, obviously I was more comp 0:17:09.862 --> 0:17:12.222 I still wouldn't have described myselves as confident mother. But 0:17:12.341 --> 0:17:14.662 the literal reason why is because I'd learned it, I've 0:17:14.661 --> 0:17:17.741 done it before. And that's the same for my partner, 0:17:17.901 --> 0:17:21.582 so he for And again I don't want to talk 0:17:21.581 --> 0:17:25.621 in generalizations about specific experiences, but Brent was also a 0:17:25.661 --> 0:17:28.382 farther like he adored the baby. You know, and you 0:17:28.422 --> 0:17:31.061 have to this is a team effort, and I've talked 0:17:31.061 --> 0:17:33.022 about that lots of times, like you've got to trust 0:17:33.061 --> 0:17:34.702 them to know what they're doing and learn what they're 0:17:34.702 --> 0:17:36.942 doing because all the things you're learning, and you've never 0:17:36.982 --> 0:17:38.862 been on such a steep learning curve as you are 0:17:38.901 --> 0:17:42.821 in those early days of parenthood. They also have to learn. 0:17:42.982 --> 0:17:44.702 But if you don't let them learn, they won't learn, 0:17:44.742 --> 0:17:46.861 and you will be the keeper of all that knowledge. 0:17:47.262 --> 0:17:49.981 I do think that anyone can learn it. I agree 0:17:49.982 --> 0:17:52.341 with you, Jesse about almost everything you say about the 0:17:52.381 --> 0:17:55.742 fact that I think we've undermined instinct to a point 0:17:55.861 --> 0:17:57.941 in terms of the constant and this is I mean, 0:17:57.982 --> 0:17:58.622 it's capitalism. 0:17:58.702 --> 0:17:59.181 Let's face it. 0:17:59.182 --> 0:18:01.221 They want you to buy the books and buy the things, 0:18:01.302 --> 0:18:03.302 and buy all the products that are supposed to make 0:18:03.341 --> 0:18:04.742 things easier and all of those things. 0:18:04.782 --> 0:18:06.821 It's also access to information. 0:18:06.462 --> 0:18:09.421 It is, and so I do agree with all of 0:18:09.782 --> 0:18:12.661 making you anxious. But for me, I don't think it 0:18:12.782 --> 0:18:16.702 was necessarily that, because I just genuinely believe that we've 0:18:16.901 --> 0:18:19.782 created an ideal that can undermine mothers a lot, which 0:18:19.821 --> 0:18:22.742 is that you'll know what to do, it will be natural. 0:18:22.782 --> 0:18:25.661 A good mother does this that are so deep in 0:18:25.742 --> 0:18:29.542 us that it's really hard to unpick it. And I 0:18:29.581 --> 0:18:32.741 think that maybe some women do. And I genuinely believe that, 0:18:32.821 --> 0:18:35.421 Like the point of this article was sort of points 0:18:35.462 --> 0:18:39.262 saying that the motherhood myth, the maternal instinct myth, as 0:18:39.262 --> 0:18:41.981 she calls it, is like a trap to keep you 0:18:42.022 --> 0:18:44.821 at home and keep the status quo in place and 0:18:44.861 --> 0:18:46.542 allow men to not have to have anything to do 0:18:46.581 --> 0:18:49.302 with child rearing and all those things. I think that 0:18:49.381 --> 0:18:51.942 there's a lot of truth in that. And I think 0:18:51.942 --> 0:18:54.422 there's an enormous amount of truth that for many, many 0:18:54.502 --> 0:18:58.222 women it's the most satisfying and important thing they'll ever do, 0:18:58.341 --> 0:19:01.542 and that they'll get so much self esteem out of 0:19:01.581 --> 0:19:02.742 being able to do it well. 0:19:02.901 --> 0:19:03.101 Right. 0:19:03.141 --> 0:19:05.941