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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what

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Speaker 3: women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifteenth of August.

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Speaker 3: My name is Hollywayne, right, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vernham.

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Speaker 1: And here's what's on our agender for today.

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Speaker 4: Is maternal instinct really a lie? I have a feeling

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Speaker 4: that Holly and I passionately disagree about this.

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Speaker 3: Quite possibly mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and her neutic labor.

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Speaker 1: Say that, right?

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Speaker 4: I think you did.

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Speaker 3: There's a whole lot of fancy new words to describe

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Speaker 3: the same thing. The realities of dating men. Emily Vernon

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Speaker 3: is going to translate.

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Speaker 2: And we have some recommendations for your weekend, including a

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Speaker 2: mysterious new hobby, a hack in learning a new skill,

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Speaker 2: and turning a basic bitch vegetable into a delicious dish.

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Speaker 2: But for a few nights ago, I was scrolling on TikTok,

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Speaker 2: like the four hours I set aside every night for

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Speaker 2: my TikTok scroll, and I came across this crator named Brandon,

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Speaker 2: and he spoke to my soul. He was walking alongside

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Speaker 2: this river and he was talking into the camera about

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Speaker 2: how he's an outsidey person, not an outdoorsy person. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And I immediately clicked into another video of his where

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Speaker 2: he explained what he meant by that.

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Speaker 5: This is what he said, We.

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Speaker 6: As a society are still not knowing the difference between

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Speaker 6: outdoorsy and outsidey. Okay. Outdoorsy is nature for adventure. Outsidey

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Speaker 6: is nature for leisure. So for example, backpacking no bever

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Speaker 6: g nails, yes, swimming in the ocean, no, strolling upon

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Speaker 6: the shore, yes, mountaineering no, Mary.

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Speaker 4: Oliver, Yes, I love this so much. I have some

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Speaker 4: questions camping outsidey or outdoors outdoors outdoorsy definitely, but glamping

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Speaker 4: outsidey okay, because I I think I'm outside And the

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Speaker 4: reason for this is that I went on a three

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Speaker 4: day hike to Berney Island, remember that, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've been on a similar line.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, because we're hikers and we're very outdoorsy. That's

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Speaker 4: what it looks like.

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Speaker 5: But the beauty of.

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Speaker 4: This hike was that it was an outsidey hike.

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Speaker 5: It was what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 4: Okay? So you go and have a shower, and when

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Speaker 4: you're in the shower, it's open and you look out

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Speaker 4: onto the wilderness. But the shower's warm. You got your

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Speaker 4: shampoo and conditioner, and you gotta the last of champagne

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Speaker 4: on the windows. That is outside.

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Speaker 1: That's outsidey.

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Speaker 3: I did the same thing. So you walk, so you

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Speaker 3: do the outdoorsy bit, but you stay every night in

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Speaker 3: a beautiful lot.

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Speaker 1: And that's why outside a bit. And there's wine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think I know what my line is. Okay,

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Speaker 4: I am outside because I need a coffee, preferably Barista made.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the problem with going and camping,

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Speaker 4: like my friend recently went to Canada camped the whole time. Wow,

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Speaker 4: way too close to the bears. Needs best brain stuff.

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Speaker 4: I was like, I'm happy to see the bear from

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Speaker 4: my cab, from my hotel. I don't need to hear

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Speaker 4: the bear chloring it the thing? And where do you

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Speaker 4: get your Barista coffee? What are you am outside?

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Speaker 2: Or I definitely outside the borderline? Insidey outside?

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Speaker 1: Barely walk every day?

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Speaker 2: I do outside, do my outside walk. But the way

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Speaker 2: I know if you're someone's outsider versus outdoorsy is how

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Speaker 2: they approach holidaying, Like what are your activities you plan

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Speaker 2: for your holiday? Are you a hotel family or your

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Speaker 2: hiking family. My biggest fear is marrying into a family

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Speaker 2: that like to go to walks on their holidays for

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Speaker 2: no reason.

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Speaker 4: And they have Like I think a sign you're outdoorsy

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Speaker 4: is that you own hiking boots. Yes, like you actually

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Speaker 4: own them. Are you married to an outdoorsy Holly's married

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Speaker 4: You're with.

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Speaker 3: An outdoorsys to a very outdoorsy person. And I am outsidey.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I'm very outsidey. I like to be outside,

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Speaker 3: borderline outdoors.

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Speaker 4: Because you touch the outdoors with your If I can't

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Speaker 4: go outside, like if the weather's really really terrible, I

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Speaker 4: actually get quite sad.

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Speaker 3: Like I like to be in nature, as they say,

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Speaker 3: But I am not outdoorsy like Brent is. Like I

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Speaker 3: can camp. I do it once a year with my friends.

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Speaker 3: Have written a book about that. But I'm not like

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Speaker 3: encouraging it, you know what I mean. I can go

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Speaker 3: for a walk. Years ago, before kids, Brent and I

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Speaker 3: went and did the Larapinta trail and it was amazing

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Speaker 3: sad and I loved it. But have I done anything

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Speaker 3: like that since?

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Speaker 1: No? Do I encourage it.

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Speaker 4: No another sign you're outdoorsy, Holly. You can answer this question,

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Speaker 4: and this is the ultimate question. Do you swim in

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Speaker 4: the ocean in winter?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: I reckon, that's it, because I'll swim in the ocean

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Speaker 4: on a nice day. If it's a little cold, there's

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Speaker 4: no way I'm diving in.

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Speaker 3: I don't go in proper winter, but I do love

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Speaker 3: to swim in the ocean, and I like to swim

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Speaker 3: in rivers.

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Speaker 1: I like to swim rivers.

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Speaker 3: No, I like, I like to swim anywhere that isn't

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Speaker 3: in a swimming pool basically, and so I do really

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Speaker 3: like that. If it's it's freezing, I'm not going in.

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Speaker 3: I'm not crazy, but I reckon. I'm outsidey without doorsy

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Speaker 3: rising yes, but I'm definitely not proper outdoorsy. When Brent

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Speaker 3: and I talk about, you know, when we no longer

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Speaker 3: have responsibilities and we do whatever, He's like, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to go on that twenty eight day high in Western

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Speaker 3: Australia happen and he gets my joy out of them there,

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, and I will come and meet you

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Speaker 3: every now and again as somewhere with a really nice.

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Speaker 4: Cocktail, a substack newsletter dropped in my inbox this week

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Speaker 4: with the subject line the maternal instinct is a lie.

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Speaker 4: And immediately I found that I got my back up,

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Speaker 4: which was a surprising response, and I want to work

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Speaker 4: through why with you both. The author of this newsletter,

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Speaker 4: her name is Sarah Peterson, interviews Chelsea Conner Boy who

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Speaker 4: has written a book called mother Brain. And here's what

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Speaker 4: she says. This idea that women's capacity for caregiving is

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Speaker 4: wholly innate, automatic, and is particular to women is a myth.

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Speaker 4: She says, maternal instinct paves the way for the belief

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Speaker 4: that women meant to birth children, that they're equipped with

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Speaker 4: everything they need without needing any additional time or support.

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Speaker 4: The myth of the maternal instinct is also, she says,

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Speaker 4: behind the complete lack of clinical care during the postpartum period.

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Speaker 4: She believes in the parental brain, something that develops with experience,

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Speaker 4: which anyone can have access to. And when I read

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Speaker 4: that nuanced argument, I went, yeah, I think I believe

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Speaker 4: in the parental brain too. I quite like that it's

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Speaker 4: also used, she argues, to justify women staying at home

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Speaker 4: and men going back to work because women have the

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Speaker 4: maternal instinct rights.

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Speaker 3: As we've mentioned several times on the show lately, suddenly

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Speaker 3: this seems to be a big issue of debate exactly right,

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Speaker 3: whether or not women should be allowed to have jobs. Holly,

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Speaker 3: did you find yourself agreeing with connor Boy's argument. Yes,

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Speaker 3: But I think it's a very dangerous discussion because arguing

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Speaker 3: against maternal instinct can also be seen as devaluing mother's

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Speaker 3: work and motherhood in general. And I would never want

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Speaker 3: to do that because I think parents in general could

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Speaker 3: do with a lot more recognition and support, and I

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Speaker 3: don't want to do that. And I can see that

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Speaker 3: this headline is a trap to get women to walk

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Speaker 3: into and then fight with each other about it. But

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Speaker 3: having said all that, from my personal experience, if I'm

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Speaker 3: telling the absolute, unvarnished truth of whether or not I

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Speaker 3: thought I had maternal instincts, no, I don't think I did.

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Speaker 4: How did you feel you learned it?

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Speaker 3: I genuinely believe, again for me, only for me, that

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Speaker 3: when I left the hospital with our first child in

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Speaker 3: that moment, I had no more idea than my partner,

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Speaker 3: Brent did about how to keep that baby alive. And

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Speaker 3: I believe that because at least in the first instance,

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Speaker 3: that baby was dependent on my body to stay alive.

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Speaker 3: I had to learn fast, and I had to learn first, Right,

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Speaker 3: So you're the one who's first in the line to

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Speaker 3: figure this shit out as much as you can and

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Speaker 3: then you pass it along, right. But to be honest,

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Speaker 3: I don't know that I did ever learn it, like

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Speaker 3: I genuinely think. And this is why, I mean, I

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Speaker 3: feel very vulnerable admitting this, because it's probably one of

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Speaker 3: the worst things a woman, a mother can admit, Like

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Speaker 3: nothing was easy or instinctive about it. Like the only

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Speaker 3: thing that was easy or instinctive about becoming a mother

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Speaker 3: for me, and in this I'm very lucky it was

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Speaker 3: the love right that was definitely there. So the other thing,

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Speaker 3: if any woman ever admits to how difficult she has

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Speaker 3: found motherhood, she has to put a massive caveat as

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Speaker 3: I am doing right now, which is that I adore

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Speaker 3: my children and they are, you know, the joy of

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Speaker 3: my life. If anything, the fact that I wasn't very

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Speaker 3: maternal before I had them has meant that is even

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Speaker 3: more of a surprise and a delight and a source

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Speaker 3: of joy and pride for me, no question. But I

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Speaker 3: never feel more insecure than I do when I'm in

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Speaker 3: a room of confident mothers, like I just was never

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Speaker 3: a confident mother. I never knew and I still don't.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm at the doctor when they were little, I'm

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Speaker 3: at the doctor when I shouldn't be at the doctor.

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Speaker 1: I'm not at the when I should be at the doctor.

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Speaker 3: I'm not advocating for them in situations when they really

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Speaker 3: might have needed my advocation. But then on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: I worried and stressed way too much about things it

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Speaker 3: didn't matter, Like I felt like I was always getting

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Speaker 3: it wrong, and I would be often around groups of women,

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Speaker 3: and even now with teenagers. They bring me their issues

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Speaker 3: and all people have issues. I'm not crossing any boundaries there.

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Speaker 3: And most of the time my instinct is I have

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Speaker 3: no fucking idea. And when I'm around women who seem

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Speaker 3: to be very confident mothers and just seem to not

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that it's easy for them,

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Speaker 3: because I don't believe that it's easy for anybody, but

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Speaker 3: like that they do seem to just know like what

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Speaker 3: to do, what to feed them, how to be, how

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Speaker 3: to care.

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Speaker 5: And do you think that's an instinct?

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Speaker 3: I think that maybe can't we accept And I know

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Speaker 3: this is always my position, and I'm very boring in

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Speaker 3: this regard that there's a spectrum that involves nature, nurture, science, environment,

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Speaker 3: that some of us have much stronger maternal instincts than others,

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Speaker 3: and some women do and some women don't. And like,

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Speaker 3: as I say, like, I love being a mother, I

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Speaker 3: absolutely love it, but I'm not a naturally maternal person.

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Speaker 3: No one ever makes me office mother, right, Like, I

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Speaker 3: think that deeply people understand that if they were going

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Speaker 3: to cast me in the role of office mom, den mother, friend,

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Speaker 3: group mother, they would get eaten by a bear.

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Speaker 1: Like I just I think they deeply know that, whereas.

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Speaker 3: We all know some women don't we who were just

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Speaker 3: they oosee it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so I think, of course there is a maternal instinct,

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Speaker 3: but I don't think that every woman has it to

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Speaker 3: the same amount. And I do think that parental instincts

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Speaker 3: and parental brain can be learnt and can be learned

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Speaker 3: by anybody.

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Speaker 4: I have one hundred thoughts on that. But first, what

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Speaker 4: do you think him?

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Speaker 2: When I read this, I felt betrayed because I was

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Speaker 2: always thought similar to your point, Holly. I felt like

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Speaker 2: even all my friends who don't have kids. I just

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Speaker 2: knew who out of us would be really really good mothers,

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Speaker 2: and who out of I'd be like, I'm not too sure.

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Speaker 2: And I was in that I'm not too sure camp

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Speaker 2: because just when there's like a baby in our group,

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Speaker 2: the way my friends react to that baby is so

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Speaker 2: different to the way I react. And I've always been

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Speaker 2: told that if I were to have kids, when I

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Speaker 2: have a kid, that will immediately change. You'll immediately get it,

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Speaker 2: You'll immediately know exactly what to do.

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Speaker 5: You'll get that.

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Speaker 4: Mother love all babies, but you'll love your hair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, Okay, that's fine, I'm chill now.

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Speaker 2: And then I read this and I was like, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, what if that doesn't happen to me. It

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Speaker 2: kind of scares me to the point of like, are

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Speaker 2: we telling women that just as long as you have

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Speaker 2: a child, like you'll actually get it and it'll be

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Speaker 2: fine after that, because that's what I've been told.

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Speaker 4: This is my theory is that we're potentially confusing two things.

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Speaker 4: On the one hand, there's maternal instinct, and on the

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Speaker 4: other hand, there is this picture symbol of the ideal mother. Right,

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Speaker 4: no question and I think we're sort of conflating the two.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's a lot about the definition of

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Speaker 4: what the maternal instinct is. Because what you just described hole,

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Speaker 4: I thought was the maternal instinct. So the sense you're

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Speaker 4: always doing it wrong, that's a maternal instinct, I don't

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Speaker 4: think it is. I see, Yeah, that's interesting, right, is

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Speaker 4: that I feel as though, I mean.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a common maternal experience, anxiety. But I

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Speaker 3: think the idea that you'll know best, you always really

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Speaker 3: know your child, no one knows them better than you do.

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Speaker 3: You'll know when it's serious, you'll know, well the cries mean,

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Speaker 3: you'll know.

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Speaker 1: That's all the stuff that is sold to us as

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Speaker 1: the paternal.

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Speaker 4: So I looked it up and it said maternal instinct.

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Speaker 4: It refers to the natural and inherent tendency of a

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Speaker 4: mother to nurture and care for her child. Right, Because

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Speaker 4: you spoke about knowing you love the baby, and for

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Speaker 4: a lot of people, a lot of people, I know,

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Speaker 4: that wasn't the first feeling, exactly the very that's very common,

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Speaker 4: right experience was the first feeling was terror and like

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Speaker 4: and they say I felt protective. I knew if someone

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Speaker 4: walked into that room, I'd say, I'm looking after this

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Speaker 4: this baby, But was it love? Not really?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 4: So there is this incredible spectrum, and I think the

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Speaker 4: issue is that we keep trying to make motherhood universal,

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Speaker 4: and the experience of motherhood is not universal. It is

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Speaker 4: so specific. But I remember walking through the door with

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Speaker 4: Luna in her capsule and putting her on the floor

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Speaker 4: and CHILEI the dogs started kind of wandering towards her,

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Speaker 4: and I have never in my life had that feeling.

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Speaker 4: I can't even explain it.

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Speaker 1: It was like.

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Speaker 4: I saw flashes of what was going to happen. It

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Speaker 4: was protective, but it was more than that. It was

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Speaker 4: enormous anxiety. It was all of those things. And I

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Speaker 4: worry that there is something very specific that happens when

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Speaker 4: you carry a baby and you have that baby, right,

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Speaker 4: there is something specific. We know that there are hormonal, biological,

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Speaker 4: neurological changes and that's matrescence, and there's an incredible emerging field.

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Speaker 4: Does that mean that if you don't do those things

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Speaker 4: then you don't have a parental instinct?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not, because to be and I don't want to again,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to ever make it sound like I'm

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Speaker 3: d value in motherhood because the last thing I'd want

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Speaker 3: to do, but feeling protective over my new baby.

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Speaker 1: Brent was also protective over that.

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Speaker 4: And that's the thing is that we talk about maternal instinct,

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Speaker 4: I think because we're using it to kind of prop

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Speaker 4: up this ideal mother thing, which is an absolute lie

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Speaker 4: that has been used as a weapon against women to

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Speaker 4: be this ever giving, ever nurturing.

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Speaker 3: Like you have to do everything because you have the mother,

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Speaker 3: and also self sacrificing. I mean, how many times do

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Speaker 3: you hear people, you know, famous people being interviewed and

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Speaker 3: they're like, my mother gave up everything, everything so that

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Speaker 3: I could have my dream, and that's that ideal, whereas

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Speaker 3: I never say that about fathers.

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Speaker 4: By the way, paternal instinct, which is equally a thing,

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Speaker 4: is I would say exactly the same. I think it

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Speaker 4: can manifest slightly differently. But there is all this research

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Speaker 4: too about in the case of adoption or the case

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Speaker 4: of grandparents, like the carrying of a baby close to

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Speaker 4: your body releases these hormones that make you super super protective.

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Speaker 4: And my worry with undermining the whole idea of a

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Speaker 4: maternal instinct is that mothers are more anxious today than

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Speaker 4: they've ever been in all of history. And is that

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Speaker 4: because they've been undermined? Is there a way in which

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Speaker 4: all the expertise and the intellectualism and the books and

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Speaker 4: the podcasts and the bla and you need to have

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Speaker 4: a PhD In all of the things, and if you

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Speaker 4: learned to breastfeed yet and makes women feel like they

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Speaker 4: are so fundamentally incapable of doing any of this that

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Speaker 4: they need all the advice all the time from the experts.

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Speaker 4: And there is some truth. I mean, I had to

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Speaker 4: learn manually how to breastfeed, like there was nothing instinctive

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Speaker 4: about that, and I was never good at it and

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Speaker 4: I had to stop. But I think that there are

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Speaker 4: some parts of reacting to a baby's cry or whatever

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Speaker 4: it is that maybe mothers and fathers need to trust

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Speaker 4: themselves a little bit more and that might actually help

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Speaker 4: with the anxiety and to kind of sit there and go.

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Speaker 4: And I was reassured by some health professionals it's like

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Speaker 4: you've got to kind of trust that you know what

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Speaker 4: you're doing. Something has happened to you in your brain.

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Speaker 4: The circuits have all changed that have programmed you to

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Speaker 4: try and look after this thing. What's helped me is

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Speaker 4: to go the guilt and the anxiety in all of

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Speaker 4: those things the second to all of them kick in,

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Speaker 4: and for me, they've been in the realm of normal.

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Speaker 4: I know for some people they aren't. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is helping me, this is helping me. That image

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Speaker 4: I had of this how horrible thing just happening to Luna,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to file that away as my brain doing

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Speaker 4: its job.

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Speaker 2: I think also, what maternal instinct refers to is it

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Speaker 2: doesn't also consider like women who choose to adopt. But

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Speaker 2: what this interview did was that it shows that there

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Speaker 2: is scientific evidence that people who are around a baby

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Speaker 2: in those initial phases there is a change in their

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Speaker 2: brain chemistry, but there hasn't been enough research into it

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Speaker 2: to actually explain what that change is and how it

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Speaker 2: like manifests. So I want to know, with both of

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Speaker 2: your partners, do you know when they had that change?

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Speaker 4: I think it was gradual, as I think it was.

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Speaker 4: And maybe that's how issue too, is that maternal instinct

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Speaker 4: just builders this thing that is imbued upon you the

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Speaker 4: second you have a baby, Like I don't think that's right.

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Speaker 3: I genuinely think and one of the examples is like

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Speaker 3: so for my second child, obviously I was more comp

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Speaker 3: I still wouldn't have described myselves as confident mother. But

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Speaker 3: the literal reason why is because I'd learned it, I've

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Speaker 3: done it before. And that's the same for my partner,

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Speaker 3: so he for And again I don't want to talk

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Speaker 3: in generalizations about specific experiences, but Brent was also a

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Speaker 3: farther like he adored the baby. You know, and you

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Speaker 3: have to this is a team effort, and I've talked

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Speaker 3: about that lots of times, like you've got to trust

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Speaker 3: them to know what they're doing and learn what they're

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Speaker 3: doing because all the things you're learning, and you've never

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Speaker 3: been on such a steep learning curve as you are

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Speaker 3: in those early days of parenthood. They also have to learn.

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Speaker 3: But if you don't let them learn, they won't learn,

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Speaker 3: and you will be the keeper of all that knowledge.

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Speaker 3: I do think that anyone can learn it. I agree

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Speaker 3: with you, Jesse about almost everything you say about the

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Speaker 3: fact that I think we've undermined instinct to a point

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Speaker 3: in terms of the constant and this is I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's capitalism.

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Speaker 1: Let's face it.

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Speaker 3: They want you to buy the books and buy the things,

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Speaker 3: and buy all the products that are supposed to make

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Speaker 3: things easier and all of those things.

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Speaker 4: It's also access to information.

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Speaker 3: It is, and so I do agree with all of

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Speaker 3: making you anxious. But for me, I don't think it

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Speaker 3: was necessarily that, because I just genuinely believe that we've

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Speaker 3: created an ideal that can undermine mothers a lot, which

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Speaker 3: is that you'll know what to do, it will be natural.

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Speaker 3: A good mother does this that are so deep in

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Speaker 3: us that it's really hard to unpick it. And I

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Speaker 3: think that maybe some women do. And I genuinely believe that,

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Speaker 3: Like the point of this article was sort of points

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Speaker 3: saying that the motherhood myth, the maternal instinct myth, as

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Speaker 3: she calls it, is like a trap to keep you

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Speaker 3: at home and keep the status quo in place and

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Speaker 3: allow men to not have to have anything to do

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Speaker 3: with child rearing and all those things. I think that

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of truth in that. And I think

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Speaker 3: there's an enormous amount of truth that for many, many

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Speaker 3: women it's the most satisfying and important thing they'll ever do,

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Speaker 3: and that they'll get so much self esteem out of

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Speaker 3: being able to do it well.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: So I think two things can be true and I

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Speaker 3: think there's no question that the culture has given us

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Speaker 3: an impossible ideal to live up to, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's probably harder to live up to for some women

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Speaker 3: than others.

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Speaker 1: That's what I genuinely think.

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Speaker 2: And also just I feel like sometimes when we talk

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Speaker 2: about maternal instinct, sometimes I think when I am around kids,

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Speaker 2: I always like grapple with is this like a maternal

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Speaker 2: instinct or just an instinct because I'm an adult and

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Speaker 2: they're a kid. Like, for example, if I'm at a

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Speaker 2: bar or at a pub and there's like a little kid,

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Speaker 2: they should be a kid at bath so there's like

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Speaker 2: a little like kind of kid running around. I'm just

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Speaker 2: staring at that kid because I'm always like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: it's going to bump it on our table, it's gonna

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Speaker 2: run over there. Even when Luna came into the office,

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Speaker 2: Like you just can't help yourself from like watching kids

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Speaker 2: and seeing what they're doing and making sure they're not

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Speaker 2: hurting for yourself, And it just comes so naturally. And

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's with everyone, regardless they're a parent.

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Speaker 4: Or not, or their gender, oh the gender, not even

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Speaker 4: knowing who that kid is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Like it just comes.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I wonder if the maternal instinct has

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Speaker 4: kind of been used to undermine the village too. Like

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Speaker 4: then it's sort of going, well, the mother will do

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Speaker 4: it best because it's also innate to her. Where As

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Speaker 4: you know, lunar is in the care of lots of

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Speaker 4: different people, and some of them have had kids before,

431
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Speaker 4: a lot of them haven't, And that instinct, whatever you

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Speaker 4: want to call it, you've got a trust that that

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Speaker 4: will come in all the different caregivers because they build

434
00:20:25,462 --> 00:20:27,181
Speaker 4: a relationship with them.

435
00:20:27,702 --> 00:20:28,302
Speaker 1: Man keeping.

436
00:20:28,422 --> 00:20:30,701
Speaker 3: You're probably hearing that word everywhere at the minute, and

437
00:20:30,702 --> 00:20:32,622
Speaker 3: there are a whole lot of others that are all

438
00:20:32,661 --> 00:20:35,622
Speaker 3: describing the same thing, the realities of dating men.

439
00:20:35,861 --> 00:20:37,502
Speaker 1: Emily Vernham's going to take us through it.

440
00:20:40,861 --> 00:20:43,262
Speaker 3: So moving on from women to men and the women

441
00:20:43,341 --> 00:20:46,582
Speaker 3: who date them. Maybe this week you've seen a lot

442
00:20:46,581 --> 00:20:49,782
Speaker 3: of man keeping talk around. We discussed this on the

443
00:20:49,861 --> 00:20:53,421
Speaker 3: pod a while ago last year. I think mankeeping describes

444
00:20:53,502 --> 00:20:56,341
Speaker 3: the caretaking role that women often play for the men

445
00:20:56,341 --> 00:20:58,502
Speaker 3: in their lives. We're did a lot of generalizing today,

446
00:20:58,542 --> 00:21:01,821
Speaker 3: by the way, a great deal of generalizing, looking after

447
00:21:01,861 --> 00:21:05,661
Speaker 3: their emotional needs, bolstering their confidence, supporting their well being.

448
00:21:05,782 --> 00:21:08,502
Speaker 3: It's not just necessarily about doing more around the house,

449
00:21:08,542 --> 00:21:11,742
Speaker 3: but that base you're the one who will remind them

450
00:21:11,742 --> 00:21:13,581
Speaker 3: to go to the doctors, tell them to call their

451
00:21:13,581 --> 00:21:15,742
Speaker 3: mother on her birthday, all of that kind.

452
00:21:15,581 --> 00:21:18,422
Speaker 4: Of I love my dad, but I think I man

453
00:21:18,502 --> 00:21:20,941
Speaker 4: keep my dad like I think that he's someone I

454
00:21:20,982 --> 00:21:21,821
Speaker 4: have to look after.

455
00:21:22,462 --> 00:21:25,221
Speaker 3: There was an article in The Guardian recently called are

456
00:21:25,341 --> 00:21:28,581
Speaker 3: heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded

457
00:21:28,702 --> 00:21:31,061
Speaker 3: up a whole lot of other examples of terms like

458
00:21:31,141 --> 00:21:34,262
Speaker 3: man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically

459
00:21:34,302 --> 00:21:37,302
Speaker 3: the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.

460
00:21:37,782 --> 00:21:41,181
Speaker 3: For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to

461
00:21:41,222 --> 00:21:43,661
Speaker 3: describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the

462
00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:48,221
Speaker 3: mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, do you relate?

463
00:21:48,821 --> 00:21:53,022
Speaker 2: I think I related more to this in my early

464
00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:54,941
Speaker 2: twenties when I first started dating, and I think a

465
00:21:54,982 --> 00:21:58,022
Speaker 2: lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're

466
00:21:58,061 --> 00:22:00,502
Speaker 2: new to dating or they've come after a breakup and

467
00:22:00,542 --> 00:22:03,101
Speaker 2: they're in the new world of dating, it is quite

468
00:22:03,942 --> 00:22:08,221
Speaker 2: sudden experience to see how many people are so different

469
00:22:08,302 --> 00:22:10,381
Speaker 2: to you and your friends, to that out there that

470
00:22:10,462 --> 00:22:13,542
Speaker 2: are now in the dating pool, and it's something that

471
00:22:13,661 --> 00:22:16,502
Speaker 2: I feel like now I've just gotten so so used

472
00:22:16,542 --> 00:22:19,542
Speaker 2: to that it's like not even a thing for me anymore.

473
00:22:19,702 --> 00:22:22,902
Speaker 2: Like you just have to be okay with knowing that

474
00:22:23,022 --> 00:22:26,061
Speaker 2: some people you'll date are just going to be quite shit.

475
00:22:26,581 --> 00:22:30,982
Speaker 4: So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism or

476
00:22:31,061 --> 00:22:35,621
Speaker 4: hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual

477
00:22:35,661 --> 00:22:38,821
Speaker 4: woman and going, I don't know how much longer I

478
00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:40,341
Speaker 4: can do this? Because that was a sense. There was

479
00:22:40,341 --> 00:22:42,102
Speaker 4: a great New York Times piece about it, and that's

480
00:22:42,101 --> 00:22:44,542
Speaker 4: what the author essentially said, is it her friends look

481
00:22:44,542 --> 00:22:46,621
Speaker 4: at each other and go, I'm off it.

482
00:22:47,101 --> 00:22:50,741
Speaker 2: Yeah, every single situation, ship breakup, which a lot of

483
00:22:50,782 --> 00:22:52,941
Speaker 2: women go through, I feel like I go through that

484
00:22:53,581 --> 00:22:55,381
Speaker 2: all over again, and then I delete the apps and

485
00:22:55,422 --> 00:22:57,941
Speaker 2: they come back like six months later. Only recently. I

486
00:22:57,942 --> 00:22:59,542
Speaker 2: want to read you out some texts that I got

487
00:22:59,581 --> 00:23:01,581
Speaker 2: from a man. Oh please, I was seeing this guy.

488
00:23:01,621 --> 00:23:04,021
Speaker 2: I think we went on about four or five dates.

489
00:23:04,061 --> 00:23:04,621
Speaker 1: I have a feeling.

490
00:23:04,621 --> 00:23:06,821
Speaker 2: I talked about him on the podcast, talked about tying

491
00:23:06,861 --> 00:23:09,821
Speaker 2: one on the podcast, and we were talking and he

492
00:23:09,861 --> 00:23:11,782
Speaker 2: wanted to date, and I was like yeah, and He's like,

493
00:23:11,782 --> 00:23:14,102
Speaker 2: she would be exclusive, and I was like, yeah, if

494
00:23:14,101 --> 00:23:15,982
Speaker 2: you want, Like I mean, I'm still in the apps.

495
00:23:15,982 --> 00:23:17,502
Speaker 2: I know you're still in the apps because your profile

496
00:23:17,581 --> 00:23:20,182
Speaker 2: still there, and he's like yeah yeah. And then two

497
00:23:20,262 --> 00:23:22,101
Speaker 2: days after that, I just messaged him and I was like,

498
00:23:22,141 --> 00:23:24,341
Speaker 2: are you free on the weekend and he said a

499
00:23:24,381 --> 00:23:27,181
Speaker 2: day later, which was the Saturday, he said, I'm at

500
00:23:27,262 --> 00:23:29,782
Speaker 2: work all weekend. I finished had six tomorrow, but we've

501
00:23:29,821 --> 00:23:31,982
Speaker 2: got lots of bookings in because he's a bartender, so.

502
00:23:31,942 --> 00:23:34,542
Speaker 5: It could be later. Sorry, I'll keep you in the loop.

503
00:23:34,821 --> 00:23:38,502
Speaker 5: Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.

504
00:23:38,942 --> 00:23:42,182
Speaker 4: Okay. So in this New York Times article it told

505
00:23:42,182 --> 00:23:44,262
Speaker 4: a story and this woman was talking about one of

506
00:23:44,302 --> 00:23:46,782
Speaker 4: her friends and she'd gone on a third date with

507
00:23:46,782 --> 00:23:49,942
Speaker 4: a lawyer and her friend said to her, he's really

508
00:23:49,982 --> 00:23:51,901
Speaker 4: really sweet and nice to me and good at sex.

509
00:23:52,101 --> 00:23:55,141
Speaker 4: No doubt something humiliating a night marriage will occur, so

510
00:23:55,381 --> 00:23:57,941
Speaker 4: which I just really related with anyway, And then he

511
00:23:57,982 --> 00:23:59,941
Speaker 4: went he was really busy with his word. Men are

512
00:23:59,982 --> 00:24:02,222
Speaker 4: all they're so busy with their works, so I'm like women.

513
00:24:02,621 --> 00:24:05,141
Speaker 4: And she ended up saying she would message him and

514
00:24:05,182 --> 00:24:06,902
Speaker 4: he would just go days and days, and she kind

515
00:24:06,942 --> 00:24:08,502
Speaker 4: of ended up saying, Hey, is it hang all right?

516
00:24:08,742 --> 00:24:08,941
Speaker 3: Like you?

517
00:24:09,061 --> 00:24:11,941
Speaker 4: No, you take six days to respond, It was just

518
00:24:11,942 --> 00:24:16,542
Speaker 4: taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said sorry for keeping

519
00:24:16,542 --> 00:24:19,341
Speaker 4: you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said the

520
00:24:19,341 --> 00:24:22,701
Speaker 4: complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able to

521
00:24:22,821 --> 00:24:25,742
Speaker 4: escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship, and

522
00:24:26,022 --> 00:24:28,181
Speaker 4: this friend clarified that she had not been asking to

523
00:24:28,262 --> 00:24:31,861
Speaker 4: escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.

524
00:24:32,222 --> 00:24:35,021
Speaker 4: He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were

525
00:24:35,022 --> 00:24:38,702
Speaker 4: obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason

526
00:24:38,742 --> 00:24:41,061
Speaker 4: I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had

527
00:24:41,061 --> 00:24:44,421
Speaker 4: this happen about seven times. It was like clockwork.

528
00:24:44,821 --> 00:24:46,461
Speaker 5: I feel like he just read out my diary.

529
00:24:46,621 --> 00:24:50,861
Speaker 4: Yes, of I would date people and then four months,

530
00:24:51,262 --> 00:24:53,861
Speaker 4: like not two days, four months down the track, and

531
00:24:53,861 --> 00:24:56,302
Speaker 4: then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird

532
00:24:56,502 --> 00:24:58,821
Speaker 4: or trying to make a plan or something, and I

533
00:24:58,861 --> 00:25:01,701
Speaker 4: would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it

534
00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,941
Speaker 4: would go I think we want different things, and I

535
00:25:05,022 --> 00:25:06,462
Speaker 4: was like, I just want to know if for hanging

536
00:25:06,462 --> 00:25:08,182
Speaker 4: out on Saturday, and then they'd be like, you clearly

537
00:25:08,222 --> 00:25:10,061
Speaker 4: want a relationship, And I was like, I do, but

538
00:25:10,101 --> 00:25:11,222
Speaker 4: I didn't say that.

539
00:25:11,462 --> 00:25:14,542
Speaker 3: Friends, he's just not that into you.

540
00:25:14,182 --> 00:25:16,782
Speaker 1: Like, come on, that's the end of that.

541
00:25:17,101 --> 00:25:21,341
Speaker 3: Why all he's just read like if they're not texting

542
00:25:21,381 --> 00:25:23,542
Speaker 3: you back, if he's texting you back saying we've got

543
00:25:23,542 --> 00:25:24,502
Speaker 3: a lot of bookings in tonight.

544
00:25:24,621 --> 00:25:26,662
Speaker 1: Not sure? Maybe like he's not that into you. There's

545
00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:28,022
Speaker 1: the end of that conversation.

546
00:25:28,462 --> 00:25:30,941
Speaker 3: Like if he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if

547
00:25:30,942 --> 00:25:33,222
Speaker 3: he was working till midnight, he would try and get

548
00:25:33,262 --> 00:25:35,661
Speaker 3: around there as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be

549
00:25:35,702 --> 00:25:37,422
Speaker 3: getting someone else to finish his shift for him.

550
00:25:37,462 --> 00:25:40,381
Speaker 4: So the issue is that what's wrong with them that

551
00:25:40,422 --> 00:25:40,981
Speaker 4: they don't like?

552
00:25:41,621 --> 00:25:49,341
Speaker 3: Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario is true,

553
00:25:50,061 --> 00:25:53,061
Speaker 3: this kind of premises like men have gotten worse because

554
00:25:53,061 --> 00:25:55,141
Speaker 3: as women have been able to ask for more of

555
00:25:55,141 --> 00:25:57,021
Speaker 3: what they want, because they've got more independence, they've got

556
00:25:57,061 --> 00:25:59,341
Speaker 3: more choices, they've got what we know, yays, we discuss

557
00:25:59,381 --> 00:26:02,621
Speaker 3: all the time. The dialogue is kind of they don't

558
00:26:02,621 --> 00:26:05,061
Speaker 3: have to put up with this shitty behavior anymore, Like

559
00:26:05,101 --> 00:26:08,701
Speaker 3: that's generally the vibe, right, Like yeah, and so I

560
00:26:08,742 --> 00:26:10,702
Speaker 3: threw away the second from the City Line. But say,

561
00:26:10,742 --> 00:26:13,381
Speaker 3: like when that show started in the late nineties and noughties,

562
00:26:13,381 --> 00:26:16,662
Speaker 3: it was like women tying themselves in knots to believe

563
00:26:16,821 --> 00:26:21,221
Speaker 3: something that wasn't true about this guy seemed more urgent

564
00:26:21,302 --> 00:26:22,061
Speaker 3: than it does now.

565
00:26:22,262 --> 00:26:25,581
Speaker 4: Isn't it interesting though, that show had not a sprinkle

566
00:26:25,782 --> 00:26:29,582
Speaker 4: of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well, it

567
00:26:29,621 --> 00:26:34,061
Speaker 4: was about that they still believed in, like finding the person,

568
00:26:34,101 --> 00:26:37,381
Speaker 4: whereas now there's this real nihilism when it comes to.

569
00:26:37,302 --> 00:26:38,262
Speaker 1: Some of the characters.

570
00:26:38,302 --> 00:26:43,421
Speaker 3: Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always a little bit of

571
00:26:43,462 --> 00:26:46,381
Speaker 3: that with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had

572
00:26:46,381 --> 00:26:48,461
Speaker 3: a lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had

573
00:26:48,502 --> 00:26:51,101
Speaker 3: a lot of hee Like. Anyway, we're not talking about

574
00:26:51,141 --> 00:26:53,982
Speaker 3: sex and the City, but it seems interesting that we've

575
00:26:54,061 --> 00:26:58,222
Speaker 3: changed the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,

576
00:26:58,222 --> 00:27:00,382
Speaker 3: you do have all the choices in the world, right,

577
00:27:00,581 --> 00:27:02,821
Speaker 3: you are a catch.

578
00:27:02,901 --> 00:27:04,022
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you.

579
00:27:05,381 --> 00:27:10,101
Speaker 3: Stop crying, no question, right, and yet you're you're still

580
00:27:10,101 --> 00:27:14,022
Speaker 3: trying to decipher what this stupid fucking text message means.

581
00:27:14,101 --> 00:27:16,662
Speaker 2: Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex

582
00:27:16,702 --> 00:27:19,581
Speaker 2: and the city like they started the taxicab theory right.

583
00:27:19,542 --> 00:27:22,421
Speaker 3: Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I

584
00:27:22,462 --> 00:27:24,462
Speaker 3: would bet my house on that theory.

585
00:27:24,621 --> 00:27:26,821
Speaker 5: I agree. I think that theory is so true.

586
00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:30,662
Speaker 2: So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will

587
00:27:30,661 --> 00:27:34,381
Speaker 2: go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.

588
00:27:34,861 --> 00:27:37,022
Speaker 2: And depending on who they're just dating at the time

589
00:27:37,061 --> 00:27:39,622
Speaker 2: they're ready to settle down, that's the person musical chess.

590
00:27:39,702 --> 00:27:42,262
Speaker 3: But women, women have a light to your lights just

591
00:27:42,302 --> 00:27:43,462
Speaker 3: have to be on at the same time.

592
00:27:43,821 --> 00:27:45,782
Speaker 2: I think women are more and I think this is

593
00:27:45,821 --> 00:27:49,542
Speaker 2: where the taxicab theory is making men really confuse now,

594
00:27:49,861 --> 00:27:53,061
Speaker 2: because women, as you said whole, have more agency over

595
00:27:53,061 --> 00:27:55,302
Speaker 2: their lives and dating, and they're becoming more picky with

596
00:27:55,462 --> 00:27:57,581
Speaker 2: dating in a good way, saying that they're going to

597
00:27:57,621 --> 00:28:01,061
Speaker 2: look for the right person. So their lights only turns

598
00:28:01,101 --> 00:28:03,502
Speaker 2: on on the person that they feel like they're going

599
00:28:03,542 --> 00:28:05,622
Speaker 2: to spend the rest of their life with. For example,

600
00:28:05,702 --> 00:28:07,821
Speaker 2: I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely not going

601
00:28:07,861 --> 00:28:09,261
Speaker 2: to marry you, but you're fun right now, so I'm

602
00:28:09,302 --> 00:28:11,741
Speaker 2: going to keep dating you. If his taxi cab light

603
00:28:11,861 --> 00:28:14,461
Speaker 2: turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out like

604
00:28:14,581 --> 00:28:16,741
Speaker 2: that's not me, of course. And now these men all

605
00:28:16,782 --> 00:28:18,381
Speaker 2: we have on these apps are these men who are

606
00:28:18,422 --> 00:28:20,941
Speaker 2: really confused, going my lights on, my lights on, but

607
00:28:20,982 --> 00:28:23,621
Speaker 2: no one wants to date me, And they aren't able

608
00:28:23,661 --> 00:28:25,342
Speaker 2: to figure out why no one wants to date them.

609
00:28:25,381 --> 00:28:26,902
Speaker 2: They just think all they have to do is turn

610
00:28:26,901 --> 00:28:28,661
Speaker 2: their lights on and they'll be a woman there waiting

611
00:28:28,661 --> 00:28:28,982
Speaker 2: for them.

612
00:28:29,061 --> 00:28:31,861
Speaker 3: That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he

613
00:28:31,901 --> 00:28:33,381
Speaker 3: doesn't want to go on another date with you and

614
00:28:33,381 --> 00:28:35,101
Speaker 3: has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many

615
00:28:35,101 --> 00:28:35,981
Speaker 3: bookings he's got in his bar.

616
00:28:36,061 --> 00:28:38,862
Speaker 4: His light's not on, his lights on on, No, his isn't.

617
00:28:38,862 --> 00:28:42,542
Speaker 4: And I think that my theory is that there is

618
00:28:42,622 --> 00:28:47,142
Speaker 4: this gap between our desire and our politics right, and

619
00:28:47,182 --> 00:28:50,261
Speaker 4: that we would have this desire. I felt like I was.

620
00:28:50,422 --> 00:28:54,062
Speaker 4: I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about

621
00:28:54,102 --> 00:28:59,342
Speaker 4: what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less

622
00:28:59,382 --> 00:29:02,942
Speaker 4: independent or less. I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,

623
00:29:02,942 --> 00:29:07,181
Speaker 4: and I didn't like how some men made me feel.

624
00:29:07,262 --> 00:29:09,302
Speaker 4: They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I

625
00:29:09,302 --> 00:29:11,782
Speaker 4: don't like this. I feel in control in so many

626
00:29:11,862 --> 00:29:12,982
Speaker 4: avenues of my life.

627
00:29:12,782 --> 00:29:16,222
Speaker 3: And you're amaking for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday

628
00:29:16,302 --> 00:29:17,542
Speaker 3: night plans and they were like.

629
00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:20,742
Speaker 1: Whoa, I don't want to get married crazy.

630
00:29:20,982 --> 00:29:23,222
Speaker 4: I was like, how dare you make me feel like that?

631
00:29:23,542 --> 00:29:25,342
Speaker 4: And there was this term in the New York Times

632
00:29:25,382 --> 00:29:27,222
Speaker 4: article I loved, which was I'm not going to be

633
00:29:27,262 --> 00:29:31,542
Speaker 4: able to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the

634
00:29:31,582 --> 00:29:35,502
Speaker 4: condition of being unable to put words to emotions, and

635
00:29:35,742 --> 00:29:39,142
Speaker 4: it's about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.

636
00:29:39,182 --> 00:29:41,262
Speaker 4: Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring

637
00:29:41,382 --> 00:29:45,222
Speaker 4: up the issue. Again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,

638
00:29:46,022 --> 00:29:47,942
Speaker 4: ask men to talk about it, and then it gives

639
00:29:47,982 --> 00:29:51,222
Speaker 4: way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,

640
00:29:51,302 --> 00:29:53,582
Speaker 4: which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand

641
00:29:53,661 --> 00:29:56,782
Speaker 4: even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.

642
00:29:57,702 --> 00:29:59,542
Speaker 3: I just have to throw a little spanner in the

643
00:29:59,542 --> 00:30:01,862
Speaker 3: works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual

644
00:30:01,862 --> 00:30:07,782
Speaker 3: for me to be when the desire is mismatched in

645
00:30:07,822 --> 00:30:11,062
Speaker 3: a dating situation, like he likes you more than you

646
00:30:11,182 --> 00:30:13,022
Speaker 3: like him, or you like him more than he likes you.

647
00:30:13,142 --> 00:30:14,622
Speaker 1: Neither of us are good at communicating that.

648
00:30:14,942 --> 00:30:18,262
Speaker 3: Emily, you might be because you're very good. You're quite

649
00:30:18,262 --> 00:30:22,382
Speaker 3: good being straightforward. But I know that in my dating life,

650
00:30:22,422 --> 00:30:24,102
Speaker 3: if a guy was asking me if I wanted to

651
00:30:24,102 --> 00:30:25,981
Speaker 3: go out on Saturday night and I didn't, did I

652
00:30:26,182 --> 00:30:30,542
Speaker 3: say was I emotionally super mature and say like, hey,

653
00:30:30,782 --> 00:30:33,342
Speaker 3: you know, really, I think I appreciate you asking me

654
00:30:33,422 --> 00:30:34,942
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah blah blah, but no, I don't

655
00:30:34,942 --> 00:30:36,622
Speaker 3: think we've got a future together. Of course I didn't.

656
00:30:36,622 --> 00:30:38,102
Speaker 3: That was too awkward. I would have said exactly the

657
00:30:38,142 --> 00:30:40,142
Speaker 3: same thing. We've got too many bookings on Saturday night.

658
00:30:40,182 --> 00:30:42,382
Speaker 3: Now I'll call you sometime next week. I think that

659
00:30:42,502 --> 00:30:46,022
Speaker 3: women are confrontational avoidant too. But the thing is is

660
00:30:46,062 --> 00:30:48,862
Speaker 3: that we tell ourselves a different story because we're always

661
00:30:48,902 --> 00:30:52,021
Speaker 3: casting ourselves in the person who's wanting a thing and

662
00:30:52,022 --> 00:30:53,941
Speaker 3: that men have got the thing we want. So we

663
00:30:54,022 --> 00:30:57,342
Speaker 3: feel like in our dating stories it's always them saying no,

664
00:30:57,902 --> 00:30:59,862
Speaker 3: and we're saying but I want, but I want, and

665
00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:03,302
Speaker 3: they're saying no, when actually think like, if you're really

666
00:31:03,342 --> 00:31:05,862
Speaker 3: honest with yourself, don't you think there have been lots

667
00:31:05,902 --> 00:31:09,102
Speaker 3: of times where you haven't treated a person in your

668
00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:11,502
Speaker 3: daily life with the absolute respect They deserve.

669
00:31:11,902 --> 00:31:14,862
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely not. But I do think examples of that

670
00:31:14,902 --> 00:31:16,862
Speaker 4: there is something. And this is not just in dating,

671
00:31:17,062 --> 00:31:19,981
Speaker 4: This is in relationships, This is in couples that have

672
00:31:20,022 --> 00:31:23,502
Speaker 4: been together for forty years. I think this idea that

673
00:31:23,942 --> 00:31:29,302
Speaker 4: some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I

674
00:31:29,342 --> 00:31:33,462
Speaker 4: can't work out whether that is something innate or whether

675
00:31:33,502 --> 00:31:37,142
Speaker 4: that is something There's definitely a socialization element to it

676
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,142
Speaker 4: where I think that men get into some situations and

677
00:31:40,182 --> 00:31:42,421
Speaker 4: go I don't even know what to label this feeling.

678
00:31:42,542 --> 00:31:46,142
Speaker 4: And for women who are very used to articulating how

679
00:31:46,182 --> 00:31:48,862
Speaker 4: they feel and talking to their big group of females

680
00:31:48,902 --> 00:31:51,982
Speaker 4: and something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since

681
00:31:51,982 --> 00:31:54,622
Speaker 4: they were very little like, I think that there is

682
00:31:54,661 --> 00:31:56,262
Speaker 4: a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's

683
00:31:56,302 --> 00:31:57,342
Speaker 4: greater than it's ever been.

684
00:31:57,462 --> 00:31:59,822
Speaker 2: I think it's massive now because men don't talk to

685
00:31:59,862 --> 00:32:02,382
Speaker 2: their friends about things, and it's so evident when you

686
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:06,542
Speaker 2: go on that first date with a guy because exactly

687
00:32:06,542 --> 00:32:07,941
Speaker 2: I think I even talked about this in the podcast

688
00:32:07,982 --> 00:32:09,782
Speaker 2: where I was asking this guy question after question enough

689
00:32:09,782 --> 00:32:11,181
Speaker 2: to question He was like, what else do you have

690
00:32:11,222 --> 00:32:11,661
Speaker 2: to ask me?

691
00:32:11,661 --> 00:32:13,742
Speaker 5: Instead of asking me a question about.

692
00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:16,221
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's because it's usually the first

693
00:32:16,222 --> 00:32:18,542
Speaker 2: time he's just a dick, he's a dick. But it's

694
00:32:18,542 --> 00:32:21,422
Speaker 2: also usually the first time where they've actually talked about

695
00:32:21,462 --> 00:32:24,822
Speaker 2: themselves and had someone interested in their life. One time,

696
00:32:24,862 --> 00:32:26,342
Speaker 2: I went on a date with a guy and he

697
00:32:26,422 --> 00:32:29,302
Speaker 2: literally said to me, no one's ever asked me that before.

698
00:32:29,702 --> 00:32:35,022
Speaker 2: The question was what does your sister do for work?

699
00:32:35,302 --> 00:32:40,421
Speaker 2: I genuinely believe no one's actually halstened that before.

700
00:32:40,702 --> 00:32:43,342
Speaker 3: Weird. I want you to tell me though, back to this,

701
00:32:43,462 --> 00:32:47,062
Speaker 3: because so many examples in these stories are about a

702
00:32:47,102 --> 00:32:49,981
Speaker 3: woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,

703
00:32:50,062 --> 00:32:54,062
Speaker 3: and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment

704
00:32:54,142 --> 00:32:56,421
Speaker 3: that his light isn't on or that they're not matched

705
00:32:56,502 --> 00:32:59,782
Speaker 3: or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?

706
00:33:00,142 --> 00:33:01,822
Speaker 3: What should the guy have said? And what do you

707
00:33:01,862 --> 00:33:03,421
Speaker 3: say to a guy who's saying I want to go

708
00:33:03,462 --> 00:33:05,222
Speaker 3: out again on Thursday and you're like, no.

709
00:33:05,702 --> 00:33:06,342
Speaker 5: What I do?

710
00:33:06,502 --> 00:33:06,782
Speaker 1: Now?

711
00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:09,062
Speaker 2: You're right, It's definitely something I didn't do when I

712
00:33:09,062 --> 00:33:10,902
Speaker 2: first started dating, because I'd always be like, oh, I

713
00:33:10,902 --> 00:33:11,982
Speaker 2: don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

714
00:33:12,022 --> 00:33:12,862
Speaker 5: I don't want to be part of this.

715
00:33:13,302 --> 00:33:15,782
Speaker 2: But what I do now is that after a date,

716
00:33:16,582 --> 00:33:19,462
Speaker 2: I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy

717
00:33:19,502 --> 00:33:20,181
Speaker 2: getting to know you.

718
00:33:20,262 --> 00:33:22,622
Speaker 5: I feel like we're not compatible, good luck.

719
00:33:23,022 --> 00:33:26,502
Speaker 2: That's very mature, instead of making them go like waiting

720
00:33:26,542 --> 00:33:29,062
Speaker 2: a few days knowing because I know that I would

721
00:33:29,102 --> 00:33:31,262
Speaker 2: do it, and I know that if they like me

722
00:33:31,342 --> 00:33:32,902
Speaker 2: a lot and I don't like them, I know they'll

723
00:33:32,902 --> 00:33:34,941
Speaker 2: spend the next two few days going should I message?

724
00:33:34,942 --> 00:33:35,461
Speaker 5: Should I not?

725
00:33:35,622 --> 00:33:37,942
Speaker 2: What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,

726
00:33:37,942 --> 00:33:39,181
Speaker 2: do you want to hang out this weekend? And then

727
00:33:39,182 --> 00:33:41,662
Speaker 2: I'll take two days to reply, and then I'll be like, hey,

728
00:33:41,742 --> 00:33:43,342
Speaker 2: just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been

729
00:33:43,382 --> 00:33:45,542
Speaker 2: really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit

730
00:33:45,862 --> 00:33:48,822
Speaker 2: to do to someone. I think with online dating now

731
00:33:48,942 --> 00:33:50,902
Speaker 2: is that it's given you the excuse where you can

732
00:33:51,022 --> 00:33:55,102
Speaker 2: have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.

733
00:33:55,622 --> 00:33:57,582
Speaker 2: You have the excuse of it being like so much

734
00:33:57,582 --> 00:33:59,862
Speaker 2: more casual and so much more chill. I know a

735
00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:02,142
Speaker 2: lot of women don't like doing it in person because

736
00:34:02,142 --> 00:34:05,302
Speaker 2: I'm like, you can feel unsafe at sometimes, and I

737
00:34:05,302 --> 00:34:08,062
Speaker 2: think just like message them, message them like straight after

738
00:34:08,182 --> 00:34:09,582
Speaker 2: or a day after and be like, I've been thinking

739
00:34:09,622 --> 00:34:11,102
Speaker 2: about it. I don't want to see you again, but

740
00:34:11,462 --> 00:34:14,622
Speaker 2: I'd much prefer that then, kind of like making what

741
00:34:14,702 --> 00:34:16,861
Speaker 2: I think is happening a bigger deal in my head

742
00:34:16,982 --> 00:34:19,661
Speaker 2: for it to just be crushed with the ghosting, the confusion.

743
00:34:19,822 --> 00:34:24,222
Speaker 4: Yeah, after the break, we are absolutely bursting with recommendations

744
00:34:24,382 --> 00:34:25,102
Speaker 4: for your weekend.

745
00:34:26,022 --> 00:34:29,782
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

746
00:34:29,822 --> 00:34:33,022
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers.

747
00:34:33,261 --> 00:34:34,822
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes.

748
00:34:34,622 --> 00:34:36,902
Speaker 3: To get us in your ears five days a week,

749
00:34:37,142 --> 00:34:40,461
Speaker 3: and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

750
00:34:46,022 --> 00:34:49,902
Speaker 3: Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.

751
00:34:50,462 --> 00:34:51,982
Speaker 5: This is my best recommendation.

752
00:34:53,102 --> 00:34:55,142
Speaker 2: It is Friday, and we want to help set up

753
00:34:55,142 --> 00:34:57,662
Speaker 2: your weekend with our very best recommendations.

754
00:34:57,701 --> 00:34:58,781
Speaker 5: Holly, what do you.

755
00:34:58,701 --> 00:34:59,341
Speaker 1: Have for us?

756
00:34:59,701 --> 00:35:02,381
Speaker 3: So you know how Jesse likes to recommend the most

757
00:35:02,382 --> 00:35:06,861
Speaker 3: obvious things. Yep, she tells me I do that, but

758
00:35:07,022 --> 00:35:07,661
Speaker 3: like she's like.

759
00:35:07,741 --> 00:35:09,022
Speaker 1: Have you watched Drive to Survive.

760
00:35:09,181 --> 00:35:12,821
Speaker 3: There's show called mad Men that's eight years later she

761
00:35:12,982 --> 00:35:15,582
Speaker 3: discovers the thing and then thenoining thing is is that?

762
00:35:15,661 --> 00:35:16,901
Speaker 5: Then everyone watches it?

763
00:35:17,062 --> 00:35:19,142
Speaker 2: Like now all the other ladders, are watching drivers vive

764
00:35:19,221 --> 00:35:21,261
Speaker 2: because you talked about it five years after.

765
00:35:21,502 --> 00:35:23,822
Speaker 4: Good Luck going to the Melbourne Grand Prix.

766
00:35:23,942 --> 00:35:28,341
Speaker 3: And then oh, anyway, I have a new discovery. It's

767
00:35:28,382 --> 00:35:31,142
Speaker 3: this little known app that teaches you a foreign language.

768
00:35:31,142 --> 00:35:34,622
Speaker 1: Have you heard about this and can teach you a

769
00:35:34,741 --> 00:35:36,342
Speaker 1: language lingo?

770
00:35:36,741 --> 00:35:38,261
Speaker 4: I thought I was telling people last week they had

771
00:35:38,302 --> 00:35:38,942
Speaker 4: too many apps.

772
00:35:39,022 --> 00:35:39,421
Speaker 3: We did.

773
00:35:41,102 --> 00:35:46,981
Speaker 7: Technology because the reason I'm recommending this is it's true

774
00:35:46,982 --> 00:35:48,582
Speaker 7: that last week we did talk about how we've got

775
00:35:48,582 --> 00:35:50,582
Speaker 7: too many apps, and I said I had one hundred

776
00:35:50,582 --> 00:35:51,221
Speaker 7: and thirty five.

777
00:35:51,661 --> 00:35:53,142
Speaker 3: And the outlouders have all been in the group, so

778
00:35:53,261 --> 00:35:55,221
Speaker 3: how many they've got They got one hundred and eighty six.

779
00:35:55,382 --> 00:35:59,462
Speaker 3: I now have one hundred and thirty six because iad dueling?

780
00:35:59,902 --> 00:36:01,542
Speaker 4: Are you ad life crisis?

781
00:36:01,982 --> 00:36:04,021
Speaker 5: Are you going to a country to learn?

782
00:36:05,062 --> 00:36:07,822
Speaker 3: I came back from my holiday where we went overseas

783
00:36:07,822 --> 00:36:10,502
Speaker 3: and we went to Italy, and I'm like, I am

784
00:36:10,622 --> 00:36:14,382
Speaker 3: learning Italian before I step foot in that country again.

785
00:36:14,822 --> 00:36:20,701
Speaker 3: I'm frecking learning Italian because I never feel more stupid

786
00:36:20,862 --> 00:36:24,582
Speaker 3: and dumb. Yeah, and you're like a giant middle aged

787
00:36:24,661 --> 00:36:28,582
Speaker 3: baby than when I'm standing in a shop behind my

788
00:36:28,701 --> 00:36:31,742
Speaker 3: mother who can speak Italian by the way, or whoever

789
00:36:32,102 --> 00:36:35,142
Speaker 3: who is making a real effort to communicate in the language,

790
00:36:35,221 --> 00:36:37,221
Speaker 3: being respectful of the culture.

791
00:36:37,542 --> 00:36:40,502
Speaker 1: And I'm they're pointing at things and going Holla.

792
00:36:40,221 --> 00:36:44,422
Speaker 5: Bread, bread, bread, bread.

793
00:36:47,502 --> 00:36:49,261
Speaker 1: How am I as old as I am?

794
00:36:50,342 --> 00:36:53,181
Speaker 3: And I only speak English. It's embarrassing. There are lots

795
00:36:53,181 --> 00:36:55,181
Speaker 3: of people in my life who speak lots of languages,

796
00:36:55,741 --> 00:36:59,582
Speaker 3: and I'm like, anyway, I'm time poor, time poor. I've

797
00:36:59,622 --> 00:37:02,022
Speaker 3: got broccoli look after I apparently I have children to

798
00:37:02,062 --> 00:37:03,982
Speaker 3: look after too, but has discussed not very good on

799
00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:08,221
Speaker 3: the maternal instincts front. Juliko, you can do six minutes

800
00:37:08,261 --> 00:37:11,421
Speaker 3: a day, and I'm doing six minutes today of Italian. Mate,

801
00:37:11,422 --> 00:37:12,622
Speaker 3: I'm going to be fluent by the end of this.

802
00:37:13,062 --> 00:37:14,341
Speaker 5: I give you two months.

803
00:37:15,102 --> 00:37:18,661
Speaker 4: In two weeks. On this show, I'm gonna ask Collie

804
00:37:18,701 --> 00:37:21,622
Speaker 4: how duweling. She's going to say, you were what? And

805
00:37:21,661 --> 00:37:23,982
Speaker 4: it's going to be like the time Ollie started meditating

806
00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:25,341
Speaker 4: and when she forgot this.

807
00:37:25,542 --> 00:37:27,781
Speaker 2: Is I'm going to open it where you have to

808
00:37:27,781 --> 00:37:29,942
Speaker 2: re download it every time because it just offloads on

809
00:37:29,982 --> 00:37:30,502
Speaker 2: your phone.

810
00:37:30,622 --> 00:37:32,181
Speaker 1: Maybe this is my meditation.

811
00:37:32,382 --> 00:37:34,741
Speaker 3: As I've been sitting there and I go, right, I've

812
00:37:34,741 --> 00:37:37,142
Speaker 3: got six minutes and the little stupid bird pops up

813
00:37:37,181 --> 00:37:39,782
Speaker 3: on my phone and goes, don't forget your Italian lesson.

814
00:37:39,781 --> 00:37:42,381
Speaker 1: Then I'm like, oh goody, and I go over there,

815
00:37:42,781 --> 00:37:46,181
Speaker 1: and firstly, that's a bird.

816
00:37:48,302 --> 00:37:50,502
Speaker 3: And it's trying to encourage me to be a better person.

817
00:37:50,502 --> 00:37:52,062
Speaker 3: And I'm getting on board with the owl.

818
00:37:52,342 --> 00:38:00,182
Speaker 5: Say something go on for sure, no working.

819
00:38:00,942 --> 00:38:01,942
Speaker 1: Sorry to all.

820
00:38:01,822 --> 00:38:06,462
Speaker 3: The Italian out louders and all the out louders, I

821
00:38:06,582 --> 00:38:09,181
Speaker 3: tell you, I am going to have learned how to

822
00:38:09,221 --> 00:38:13,422
Speaker 3: con like a proper person very soon, thanks to the owl.

823
00:38:13,622 --> 00:38:16,301
Speaker 3: It's a little done app called DUELINGO. You'll find it

824
00:38:16,462 --> 00:38:16,981
Speaker 3: in the ass.

825
00:38:17,142 --> 00:38:17,782
Speaker 4: Is it free?

826
00:38:17,942 --> 00:38:19,461
Speaker 1: It is the version I'm doing. It is free.

827
00:38:19,701 --> 00:38:22,781
Speaker 3: And the way it works just quickly is that every

828
00:38:22,862 --> 00:38:25,461
Speaker 3: day little lesson. And some of it is like say

829
00:38:25,502 --> 00:38:27,941
Speaker 3: this into the phone. Some of it is translate this thing.

830
00:38:27,942 --> 00:38:29,582
Speaker 3: I think I chose too high setting. I was a

831
00:38:29,582 --> 00:38:30,342
Speaker 3: bit more ambitious.

832
00:38:30,502 --> 00:38:32,341
Speaker 2: Some of the sentences they make you learn right off

833
00:38:32,342 --> 00:38:33,062
Speaker 2: the battle weird though.

834
00:38:33,062 --> 00:38:35,942
Speaker 5: It's I like your hat. I'm out of everything I

835
00:38:35,982 --> 00:38:38,502
Speaker 5: need to learn in this moment. I like your Hat's probably.

836
00:38:38,261 --> 00:38:40,502
Speaker 3: More also, it thinks were all Americans, because it's like

837
00:38:40,661 --> 00:38:42,022
Speaker 3: a lot of the things it wants you to say

838
00:38:42,062 --> 00:38:46,022
Speaker 3: is I'm sorry, I don't understand your an American. I'm sorry,

839
00:38:46,022 --> 00:38:48,142
Speaker 3: I still don't understand you Australia.

840
00:38:50,221 --> 00:38:54,142
Speaker 4: Okay, my recommendation I have two. The first one I

841
00:38:54,142 --> 00:38:55,582
Speaker 4: thought was a bit of a cop out, and I

842
00:38:55,622 --> 00:38:57,982
Speaker 4: will say, this is my last vegetable recommendation.

843
00:38:57,982 --> 00:39:00,062
Speaker 1: She's trying to bog up my vegetable.

844
00:39:00,062 --> 00:39:02,861
Speaker 4: I am, I am, You're being healthy. The people liked

845
00:39:02,982 --> 00:39:15,661
Speaker 4: the broccoli recommendation. Have you heard a carrot face recommends carrots, kale? Orange?

846
00:39:15,982 --> 00:39:16,301
Speaker 5: Kind of?

847
00:39:16,462 --> 00:39:17,661
Speaker 1: I'm growing carrots, Jesse.

848
00:39:17,942 --> 00:39:19,382
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll tell you how to.

849
00:39:19,622 --> 00:39:20,782
Speaker 1: I don't know when they're ready.

850
00:39:20,902 --> 00:39:22,701
Speaker 3: That's one of the problems that happen. I'm like, how

851
00:39:22,701 --> 00:39:24,262
Speaker 3: do I know when the carrot is ready?

852
00:39:24,302 --> 00:39:24,662
Speaker 1: Anyway?

853
00:39:24,822 --> 00:39:27,341
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, what you have to do is like you

854
00:39:27,382 --> 00:39:29,301
Speaker 4: do your olive oil and your salt and your pepper right,

855
00:39:29,342 --> 00:39:31,102
Speaker 4: and you put it in the oven really hot. We're roasting,

856
00:39:31,181 --> 00:39:33,502
Speaker 4: and we're roasting. And then halfway through this is what

857
00:39:33,582 --> 00:39:36,262
Speaker 4: Nagi does, because she makes us all into little chefs,

858
00:39:37,062 --> 00:39:38,661
Speaker 4: is you put garlic on it. Because if you put

859
00:39:38,701 --> 00:39:41,022
Speaker 4: garlic on it too early, then you burn the garlic.

860
00:39:41,422 --> 00:39:43,901
Speaker 1: Roasted vegetables are really the secret to everything.

861
00:39:43,741 --> 00:39:45,741
Speaker 4: They are, and so you put it on and then

862
00:39:45,741 --> 00:39:48,221
Speaker 4: you have them. And we've been having our broccoli and

863
00:39:48,302 --> 00:39:50,062
Speaker 4: our carrots without aldi spanicopter.

864
00:39:50,102 --> 00:39:52,982
Speaker 2: It's just the same recipe as the broccoli one is.

865
00:39:52,902 --> 00:39:55,622
Speaker 4: Pretty much except the one with the broccoli had lemon

866
00:39:55,622 --> 00:39:56,221
Speaker 4: and parmesan.

867
00:39:56,422 --> 00:40:01,062
Speaker 3: If you remember, you've basically discovered that vegetables don't have

868
00:40:01,062 --> 00:40:01,582
Speaker 3: to be boring.

869
00:40:01,701 --> 00:40:04,982
Speaker 4: I like, exactly, vegetables are actually young. Okay, But I

870
00:40:04,982 --> 00:40:07,821
Speaker 4: have another recommendation which is the best thing I read

871
00:40:07,862 --> 00:40:09,381
Speaker 4: on the internet this week. You know how you said

872
00:40:09,382 --> 00:40:11,741
Speaker 4: you four hours of TikTok before me. I've now gone

873
00:40:11,781 --> 00:40:12,862
Speaker 4: to four hours of substack.

874
00:40:13,181 --> 00:40:14,341
Speaker 5: You are a better pastor I am.

875
00:40:14,502 --> 00:40:14,821
Speaker 1: I am.

876
00:40:14,982 --> 00:40:16,941
Speaker 4: Now there's a rite and write some of the best

877
00:40:16,982 --> 00:40:19,502
Speaker 4: stuff on the internet. He wrote this article that's been

878
00:40:19,542 --> 00:40:23,701
Speaker 4: republished everywhere called how social Media shortens your life, and

879
00:40:24,062 --> 00:40:25,582
Speaker 4: he says everything.

880
00:40:25,622 --> 00:40:28,222
Speaker 5: Yeah says on social media my four hour TikTok.

881
00:40:28,462 --> 00:40:32,022
Speaker 4: Yeah, every social media user has experienced the theft of

882
00:40:32,062 --> 00:40:34,582
Speaker 4: their time. You may log on to quickly check your notifications,

883
00:40:34,582 --> 00:40:36,341
Speaker 4: and before you know it, half an hour has gone

884
00:40:36,342 --> 00:40:39,142
Speaker 4: by and you're still on the platform, unable to account

885
00:40:39,261 --> 00:40:41,861
Speaker 4: for where the time went. The phenomenon even has a name,

886
00:40:41,982 --> 00:40:44,301
Speaker 4: a thirty minute ick Factor, and he goes on to

887
00:40:44,382 --> 00:40:47,902
Speaker 4: explain how the experience of time works and what social

888
00:40:47,942 --> 00:40:50,982
Speaker 4: media is doing to our sense of past, present, and future.

889
00:40:51,022 --> 00:40:53,542
Speaker 4: And he's written about also how insane it is that

890
00:40:53,622 --> 00:40:55,861
Speaker 4: you can be on TikTok and flick and it's like,

891
00:40:55,902 --> 00:40:57,542
Speaker 4: tell me what the last video was he watched, or

892
00:40:57,582 --> 00:40:59,062
Speaker 4: tell me what the last thing was, and like you

893
00:40:59,741 --> 00:41:02,181
Speaker 4: it's just yeah, it is like you are in this

894
00:41:02,382 --> 00:41:05,261
Speaker 4: temporal place that is so bad for our brains, which

895
00:41:05,302 --> 00:41:07,341
Speaker 4: we all know to be true. But it was a

896
00:41:07,422 --> 00:41:11,021
Speaker 4: really interesting analysis of how social media makes you feel

897
00:41:11,022 --> 00:41:12,982
Speaker 4: and what you can do to make yourself really feel

898
00:41:13,022 --> 00:41:16,341
Speaker 4: time and all the like variations in activities and all

899
00:41:16,342 --> 00:41:17,982
Speaker 4: of that, and what's your recommendation?

900
00:41:18,342 --> 00:41:20,301
Speaker 2: Okay, I have a confession, and I feel like you

901
00:41:20,342 --> 00:41:23,301
Speaker 2: guys are not gonna like this recommendation. Oh no, I've

902
00:41:23,302 --> 00:41:25,741
Speaker 2: been on the mystery toy bandwagon.

903
00:41:26,102 --> 00:41:29,181
Speaker 1: Oh like the what la boo boos? My dad?

904
00:41:29,302 --> 00:41:31,941
Speaker 3: Can you have a conversation like yes, okay, she only

905
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:33,901
Speaker 3: likes buying things that she doesn't know what they are.

906
00:41:34,181 --> 00:41:37,022
Speaker 2: I cannot even explain it. So mystery toys you might

907
00:41:37,102 --> 00:41:39,221
Speaker 2: have seen all of you would have seen labooboos all

908
00:41:39,221 --> 00:41:43,221
Speaker 2: over the internets. Basically, these stores, they're massive in Asia.

909
00:41:43,342 --> 00:41:46,181
Speaker 2: They've only just taken off here in Australia like eight

910
00:41:46,221 --> 00:41:48,861
Speaker 2: months later, and there's like this big store, like a

911
00:41:48,902 --> 00:41:51,661
Speaker 2: toy store, where all these little boxes are wrapped up

912
00:41:51,701 --> 00:41:54,221
Speaker 2: in these mystery boxes where you actually don't know what

913
00:41:54,622 --> 00:41:57,701
Speaker 2: is inside them. So they have like different series of toys.

914
00:41:57,741 --> 00:42:01,022
Speaker 2: So you have like powerpuff Girls toys, you have Stitch toys,

915
00:42:01,022 --> 00:42:01,942
Speaker 2: you have La Boo Boos.

916
00:42:02,261 --> 00:42:03,822
Speaker 5: And the thing is is like in each.

917
00:42:03,661 --> 00:42:06,661
Speaker 2: Series of toys, there's different toys you can get amongst

918
00:42:06,661 --> 00:42:08,662
Speaker 2: that series. So you can get different versions of Stitch,

919
00:42:08,822 --> 00:42:11,181
Speaker 2: different versions our puff Girls. Yes, but you don't know

920
00:42:11,221 --> 00:42:15,502
Speaker 2: which one you're going to get. Okay, I'm not saying

921
00:42:15,622 --> 00:42:17,661
Speaker 2: collect like people collect these. I'm not saying you have

922
00:42:17,701 --> 00:42:20,741
Speaker 2: to collect them. But I was having a particular bad day.

923
00:42:20,862 --> 00:42:22,741
Speaker 2: I think it was after this text message from my man,

924
00:42:23,382 --> 00:42:26,062
Speaker 2: and I was like I just need to feel really

925
00:42:26,102 --> 00:42:28,701
Speaker 2: good about something, and I walked over to PopMart in

926
00:42:28,741 --> 00:42:32,181
Speaker 2: the CBD. It is packed with people twenty four to

927
00:42:32,181 --> 00:42:34,982
Speaker 2: seven and they're now making it two levels. I bought

928
00:42:35,062 --> 00:42:36,661
Speaker 2: one toy from the series.

929
00:42:37,862 --> 00:42:40,422
Speaker 5: I bought this series called.

930
00:42:40,221 --> 00:42:42,422
Speaker 2: Cry Baby, which is very fitting with my mood. There

931
00:42:42,462 --> 00:42:44,382
Speaker 2: was like monster series, and the thing is you have

932
00:42:44,382 --> 00:42:46,102
Speaker 2: to choose a series where you like all of them

933
00:42:46,102 --> 00:42:47,981
Speaker 2: in them because I don't want to be disappointed by one.

934
00:42:48,342 --> 00:42:50,301
Speaker 2: So I got mine and then I came into the

935
00:42:50,342 --> 00:42:53,022
Speaker 2: office and I opened it up and I've never felt

936
00:42:53,382 --> 00:42:57,102
Speaker 2: so much joy in that week. And when I opened

937
00:42:57,181 --> 00:42:59,942
Speaker 2: that toy, you feel like a child, like on Christmas

938
00:43:00,022 --> 00:43:02,102
Speaker 2: Day when you're opening a present that you don't know

939
00:43:02,102 --> 00:43:02,861
Speaker 2: what it's going to be.

940
00:43:03,142 --> 00:43:05,542
Speaker 4: Can I ask questions? What do you then do with it?

941
00:43:05,942 --> 00:43:06,781
Speaker 4: What do you do with it?

942
00:43:06,902 --> 00:43:07,742
Speaker 5: That's a good question.

943
00:43:08,062 --> 00:43:10,821
Speaker 2: So the one I got, I have it on my

944
00:43:10,902 --> 00:43:12,502
Speaker 2: desk and I kind of just look at it and

945
00:43:12,542 --> 00:43:15,062
Speaker 2: it's really cute. My friend got me one which is

946
00:43:15,102 --> 00:43:16,701
Speaker 2: like a Mickey Mouse one that was a key ring

947
00:43:16,781 --> 00:43:18,422
Speaker 2: that I put on my handbag.

948
00:43:18,661 --> 00:43:20,982
Speaker 1: This is exactly what my fifteen year old daughter does.

949
00:43:21,062 --> 00:43:22,821
Speaker 2: And then it like fell off my handbag in the

950
00:43:22,862 --> 00:43:24,382
Speaker 2: city and this man tapped me on the shoulder and

951
00:43:24,382 --> 00:43:26,102
Speaker 2: I was like, what, don't tap me on the shoulder

952
00:43:26,142 --> 00:43:27,261
Speaker 2: and he was like, you dropped that, and I was like,

953
00:43:27,261 --> 00:43:29,062
Speaker 2: that's the most embarrassing thing I could have ever dropped,

954
00:43:29,102 --> 00:43:30,822
Speaker 2: and then just like it was this white, little fluffy

955
00:43:30,822 --> 00:43:31,982
Speaker 2: thing that was rolling away from me.

956
00:43:32,422 --> 00:43:34,462
Speaker 3: We could talk about this for a year. It is

957
00:43:34,502 --> 00:43:39,022
Speaker 3: genuinely could, because it's the extension of childhood. It's rampant consumerism,

958
00:43:39,342 --> 00:43:42,741
Speaker 3: it's gamification, and there are lots of those shops of

959
00:43:43,022 --> 00:43:44,342
Speaker 3: walking distance of our office.

960
00:43:44,582 --> 00:43:45,662
Speaker 5: It's good, it's fine.

961
00:43:45,741 --> 00:43:46,902
Speaker 1: Which ones are you obsessed with?

962
00:43:46,942 --> 00:43:47,181
Speaker 3: Again?

963
00:43:47,181 --> 00:43:49,702
Speaker 5: What's the line the cry Baby Monster series?

964
00:43:50,062 --> 00:43:52,181
Speaker 1: Yeah?

965
00:43:52,342 --> 00:43:55,582
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll leave it there. I'm so sorry, am I

966
00:43:55,622 --> 00:43:58,222
Speaker 3: feel like I've been very judging. I've been very judgy.

967
00:43:58,502 --> 00:44:01,102
Speaker 5: I feel like this whole episode I just aird.

968
00:44:02,422 --> 00:44:03,901
Speaker 1: Essentially, I'm sorry.

969
00:44:03,942 --> 00:44:06,181
Speaker 3: I don't want to be judging, but I'm like, oh no,

970
00:44:06,902 --> 00:44:09,342
Speaker 3: that is all we've got time for today. Out louders,

971
00:44:09,661 --> 00:44:11,861
Speaker 3: massive thank you to all of you, and to our

972
00:44:11,902 --> 00:44:13,622
Speaker 3: amazing team who help us put the show together, and

973
00:44:13,701 --> 00:44:16,221
Speaker 3: to you Emily Vernam you guys read this out.

974
00:44:16,342 --> 00:44:18,582
Speaker 4: A big thank you to our team, our group executive

975
00:44:18,622 --> 00:44:22,741
Speaker 4: producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Emilin Gazillis.

976
00:44:22,261 --> 00:44:25,461
Speaker 2: Our senior audio producers Leah Porge's video producer Josh Green,

977
00:44:25,542 --> 00:44:27,702
Speaker 2: and our junior content producers Coca and Tessa.

978
00:44:28,142 --> 00:44:31,062
Speaker 4: Before we go, we actually have a subscriber episode that

979
00:44:31,102 --> 00:44:34,781
Speaker 4: we dropped yesterday and it is a series of dilemmas.

980
00:44:35,102 --> 00:44:37,542
Speaker 4: One who's started there is one dilemma, and I just

981
00:44:37,582 --> 00:44:40,502
Speaker 4: feel like we've all been in this situation where this

982
00:44:40,542 --> 00:44:43,781
Speaker 4: woman employed her friend who's an architect to help her

983
00:44:44,302 --> 00:44:46,582
Speaker 4: on the project that is her home at the moment,

984
00:44:46,622 --> 00:44:49,741
Speaker 4: and things have gone very very badly. Also, are you

985
00:44:49,781 --> 00:44:52,221
Speaker 4: a leftover family? We talk about the politics of the

986
00:44:52,302 --> 00:44:55,821
Speaker 4: leftovers because someone is committing a social faux pa. Check

987
00:44:55,862 --> 00:44:58,622
Speaker 4: out the link in the show notes to listen. Mamma

988
00:44:58,701 --> 00:45:01,421
Speaker 4: Mia is cooking up something very exciting and we need

989
00:45:01,502 --> 00:45:04,342
Speaker 4: your brilliant opinions to help us make even better content.

990
00:45:04,342 --> 00:45:06,142
Speaker 4: And if there is something the out louders have, it is.

991
00:45:06,181 --> 00:45:08,022
Speaker 1: Opinions, really good opinions too.

992
00:45:08,142 --> 00:45:10,181
Speaker 3: We'll take just twenty minutes of your time to fill

993
00:45:10,221 --> 00:45:13,021
Speaker 3: in this survey and in return, you'll get one month

994
00:45:13,102 --> 00:45:15,982
Speaker 3: of free subscription to Mom and Mia and also a

995
00:45:16,022 --> 00:45:19,022
Speaker 3: ten dollar a gift card comes in handy little treat.

996
00:45:19,261 --> 00:45:21,941
Speaker 4: If you are already a subscriber, we love you, then

997
00:45:22,062 --> 00:45:24,181
Speaker 4: what a perfect little treat it is to give to

998
00:45:24,221 --> 00:45:26,502
Speaker 4: your mum or a friend who's always asking what podcast

999
00:45:26,582 --> 00:45:29,582
Speaker 4: to listen to next. If you're interested, check out the

1000
00:45:29,622 --> 00:45:30,742
Speaker 4: link in our show notes.

1001
00:45:30,942 --> 00:45:32,022
Speaker 5: Bye bye.

1002
00:45:33,022 --> 00:45:35,941
Speaker 4: Shout out to any mom and Mia subscribers listening. If

1003
00:45:35,982 --> 00:45:37,941
Speaker 4: you love the show and you want to support us,

1004
00:45:38,181 --> 00:45:40,982
Speaker 4: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

1005
00:45:41,022 --> 00:45:43,582
Speaker 4: to do so. There's a link in the episode description