Speaker 1: You're listening to I'mum with Me a podcast.
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone, I'm a Shandy Dante and this is
Speaker 2: but are you happy? I'm Mother with Me a podcast
Speaker 2: for people curious about their mental health and because of that,
Speaker 2: the chances of having a rest for a weekend are
Speaker 2: very slim.
Speaker 3: And hello again everyone, I'm doctor Anastasia Ronas, clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2: Now are you coming to terms with getting older? More aches, more,
Speaker 2: doctor visits, the endless weight of adult responsibilities?
Speaker 1: If so, this episode is.
Speaker 2: For you, and this topic actually came from one of
Speaker 2: our listeners, Thanks Lisa.
Speaker 3: Today we're going to be talking through the anxiety of aging,
Speaker 3: the anxiety of death.
Speaker 4: And why we feel so much pressure from society to
Speaker 4: stay young and youthful.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
Speaker 2: So aging and this concept of getting older is inevitable,
Speaker 2: but it's really interesting because I feel like it can
Speaker 2: bring up.
Speaker 1: So many thoughts and feelings for everyone.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I actually want to start by asking you
Speaker 3: a question, Shani.
Speaker 4: You usually come with a question.
Speaker 1: The turntables?
Speaker 4: Okay, how old do you feel?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: This is a good question because I definitely feel older.
Speaker 1: Than I am. You feel older that I feel older?
Speaker 4: Okay? Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm probably late forties, early fifties.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, okay, yeah, but then it's really weird
Speaker 3: too because I do feel very youthful.
Speaker 4: Too interesting.
Speaker 2: Anyways, there's so many lays to it. How about you,
Speaker 2: how do you feel?
Speaker 4: I oscillate.
Speaker 3: I feel my age. Yeah, so I'm thirty four, I
Speaker 3: feel mid thirties. Yeah, but there's also a part.
Speaker 4: Of me that still feels like twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that specific.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a cusp of like, oh, like I'm
Speaker 3: growing up, but I'm not there yet. I'm still in
Speaker 3: my twenties that like late twenties. Yeah, there's a part
Speaker 3: of me that still feels that.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.
Speaker 3: The reason I'm curious to ask you the question how
Speaker 3: old you feel? Is because, like, so many people have
Speaker 3: so many perspectives on this, and it's very interesting to
Speaker 3: notice if people feel older or younger than what they
Speaker 3: actually are, and how that kind of internal emotional age
Speaker 3: changes depending on the context we're in or the people
Speaker 3: that we're with, and this idea of like aging, you know,
Speaker 3: biologically aging being this very structured linear thing.
Speaker 4: Every year you have a birthday, you turn a year older.
Speaker 3: So true, but like, internally our emotional age can feel
Speaker 3: so different to our biological age.
Speaker 1: It's so true.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting even just thinking about age because I know,
Speaker 2: for me, I don't really think about my age, but
Speaker 2: I do have to say now that I am in
Speaker 2: my thirties, I do think about it a little bit
Speaker 2: more because you know, the biological clock, just hormones are
Speaker 2: changing things that I didn't even think about before, which
Speaker 2: really ties into this episode because I know, like we
Speaker 2: were talking about, when we get older, we do think
Speaker 2: about our health a bit more, and you know, and
Speaker 2: everything is subjective, right, because people could be tuning in
Speaker 2: who may be older to us and being like oh,
Speaker 2: you youngster, what are you talking about, which is so valid, right,
Speaker 2: And then you know there's people that are younger be
Speaker 2: like oh, yeah, you're older. Like I remember when I
Speaker 2: used to work with teenage girls, like they I would
Speaker 2: share my age and like wow, that's old, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 1: It is a it's probably old to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, there's so much of a.
Speaker 2: Charge, an embarrassment or the shame around getting older.
Speaker 3: I feel like I have an interesting relationship with age,
Speaker 3: particularly when it comes to my work, because I work
Speaker 3: at a university as well, so I'm a lecturer, and
Speaker 3: sometimes when I meet people for the first time and
Speaker 3: I tell them I work at the UNI, They'll be like, oh,
Speaker 3: what are you studying. Oh. So I feel this like
Speaker 3: weird relationship with age where I feel underestimated by people
Speaker 3: and people who are potentially older than me as well.
Speaker 3: So I notice a sense of wanting to kind of
Speaker 3: lean into this like more mature part of myself, or
Speaker 3: present myself as more mature than perhaps you know, what
Speaker 3: my biological kind of age would say, because I want
Speaker 3: to present a certain image to people.
Speaker 4: Sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that's so fascinating. I feel like being underestimated.
Speaker 1: As a whole. Other podcastops in itself. Stay tuned for
Speaker 1: that one.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting too, because I feel like culture does
Speaker 2: play a big role in the way that we perceive aging.
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, especially for women.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, Gosh, there is such a sidal expectations and
Speaker 3: pressures on women to stay young and youthful and beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's a shame because when we look historically to
Speaker 3: how women have been portrayed in the media, older women
Speaker 3: in the media, you know, we think about like kids, nursery,
Speaker 3: rhymes and things like this. It's like Hansel and Gretel,
Speaker 3: and it's like the old grandma who like puts kids
Speaker 3: in the oven and eats them, and like Kruella de
Speaker 3: Ville and like in Snow White, the evil stepmother. Like,
Speaker 3: older women have often kind of taken on this role
Speaker 3: that has been like either grumpy or manipulative or mean
Speaker 3: or just kind of like gross in some way. And
Speaker 3: so I think we've really done women a disservice when
Speaker 3: it comes to representing the aging process for them.
Speaker 2: It's so true because it's like there is so much
Speaker 2: beauty with getting older, and you know, I really admire
Speaker 2: women in my life who are older because they're not grumpy.
Speaker 2: It's like maybe it's just they know what they want,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like, is this confidence that
Speaker 2: women have that are older than me, They just they
Speaker 2: know what they want, they know what they're going to tolerate,
Speaker 2: they know what they're not going to tolerate, and they
Speaker 2: don't care. And I just I get really passionate about
Speaker 2: this because I think a lot of my work previously
Speaker 2: was all around, you know, supporting teenager girls to coming
Speaker 2: to themselves know what they want. But I know that
Speaker 2: that life lesson is endless. But it's just like we
Speaker 2: spend so much time trying to look the part, say
Speaker 2: the right things.
Speaker 1: To be accepted.
Speaker 2: But I feel like there's some life lesson we get eventually.
Speaker 2: I'm still on the journey where it's like you don't
Speaker 2: really care anymore and you just follow your internal compass.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you believe in yourself. You have that self
Speaker 3: assuredness and confidence in who you are and what you
Speaker 3: want in the world, which is wonderful, yeah, and which
Speaker 3: feels very contrary to a lot of the social media
Speaker 3: trends that.
Speaker 4: We see nowadays as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean I really try not to intentionally engage
Speaker 3: with this kind of content, but like all the stuff
Speaker 3: about you know what was it, Korean beauty trends and
Speaker 3: skin and I went on a deep dive or like
Speaker 3: it wasn't.
Speaker 4: Even deep, it was a dive.
Speaker 3: I was too scared to go deep to be honest
Speaker 3: into like looks Maxing, looks Maxing, looks Maxing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the lingo of.
Speaker 2: That is that the gen Z stuff that looks it
Speaker 2: looks max I love that you say to it again,
Speaker 2: because I gotta get it, like.
Speaker 3: It's it's the trend of like maximal physical appearance and sadly,
Speaker 3: like I know we often speak to kind of a
Speaker 3: female audience, but looks maxing is very much also targeted
Speaker 3: towards young men as well. It's like ultimate Patrick Bateman
Speaker 3: American psycho vibes of like you need to look your
Speaker 3: absolute best and here's all the ways in which you
Speaker 3: can do that. And if you look good, then you
Speaker 3: are a more attractive to females and b you own
Speaker 3: respect from other men. And I was even listening to
Speaker 3: a podcast, and I'm really worried about what's going to
Speaker 3: happen to my algorithms now after looking.
Speaker 4: At all this content. That's my biggest concern.
Speaker 3: I was listening to a podcast where a guy was
Speaker 3: being interviewed about this, and he was making these comments about,
Speaker 3: you know that men are expected to be providers for
Speaker 3: women these days, and so if every man's a provider,
Speaker 3: what's going to set you apart from the next guy?
Speaker 3: It's your looks And that was like, that was the takeaway,
Speaker 3: and I was like hyperventilating as I was driving to
Speaker 3: work listening to that, right, because what kind of pressure
Speaker 3: and expectations does that put on young men and young
Speaker 3: women and society as a whole to be so focused
Speaker 3: on appearance and focused on being youthful and young.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so true.
Speaker 2: And it's like you don't see often such a diversity
Speaker 2: represented in age in media as well, Like I think
Speaker 2: it's coming a little bit into the space. Like I
Speaker 2: definitely have seen older women that are modeling products or campaigns,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's amazing, Like we're definitely turning the
Speaker 2: dial very slightly. So I'm like, okay, let's celebrate that.
Speaker 2: But also it isn't.
Speaker 1: It's not the majority.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and so much so that I actually found a
Speaker 3: report that was done by the Australian Human Rights Commission
Speaker 3: and they literally state that older people in the media
Speaker 3: are often portrayed as frail, weak victims or in poor health,
Speaker 3: and that those age sixty five and over rarely feature
Speaker 3: in advertising campaigns or editorial media.
Speaker 1: Wow. So it's crazy.
Speaker 3: I think what that creates is this perhaps unconscious bias
Speaker 3: within us to be biased against older people, but potentially
Speaker 3: even our own older selves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2: You know, the reality is as you get older, you
Speaker 2: actually become all wiser, Like that's just inevitable. Like the
Speaker 2: amount of friends that I have or mentors that are
Speaker 2: older than me, and I love beating their presence, Like
Speaker 2: I'm just sitting there just soaking up like a sponge
Speaker 2: because they have so many things that they want to share,
Speaker 2: and I think so often in today's society we don't
Speaker 2: value those in that internal journey as much as we
Speaker 2: do with that outward appearance.
Speaker 3: Well, it's such a good point about culture because there
Speaker 3: are so many cultures that have, you know, the elders totally.
Speaker 3: There are the wise members of society that you go
Speaker 3: to for guidance and wisdom and advice. Yeah, and we've
Speaker 3: perhaps lost that in certain ways, you know, valuing the
Speaker 3: wisdom that comes with age and experience.
Speaker 2: Definitely, I mean definitely if we just take a snapshot
Speaker 2: of where things are in the world, like you know,
Speaker 2: the fact that elders aren't involved in a lot of
Speaker 2: conversations like that just shows, you know, because yeah, a
Speaker 2: lot of I know previously, for me, I've done a
Speaker 2: lot of work in the rights of passage space and
Speaker 2: we would talk about with young people around a lot
Speaker 2: of those traditional Eastern cultures where they do have certain
Speaker 2: rituals when young people come of age and then they
Speaker 2: have I know for women. I think it was the
Speaker 2: Apache women. It's a certain tribe and they have when
Speaker 2: a woman is bleeding, a girl is bleeding for the
Speaker 2: first time, so that's her coming of age. She would
Speaker 2: sit in a hollow tree and bleed throughout the whole week,
Speaker 2: and the only people that can visit her were women
Speaker 2: or elders in the community, and they would like talk
Speaker 2: to her about the responsibilities that come from being a woman.
Speaker 1: And it's just like, even just hearing that story, you're.
Speaker 2: Like, wow, we really have lost touch of those really
Speaker 2: beautiful aspects of eldership.
Speaker 3: And how different is that experience to perhaps when a
Speaker 3: young girl or a woman bleeds for the first time. Now,
Speaker 3: where it's something that's like hidden away, it's very private,
Speaker 3: it's not to be discussed, you know, it's like kept
Speaker 3: in the corner in a dark secret somewhere, as opposed
Speaker 3: to the story that you've.
Speaker 2: Just shared exactly exactly, And there's so much like in
Speaker 2: those moments where we feel certain ways. That's why we
Speaker 2: can lean on elders be like, oh, I had that
Speaker 2: same feeling. Don't worry, this is what I did. Like
Speaker 2: be kinder to yourself. So anyways, it's just I just
Speaker 2: find it really interesting because we don't value it as
Speaker 2: much yet I feel like it's just so valuable. So
Speaker 2: we have spoken about grief before on the pod, so
Speaker 2: if you haven't into the episode, go check it out.
Speaker 2: But I feel like there is a grief that comes
Speaker 2: with getting older. It's like you're grieving younger versions of
Speaker 2: yourself in a way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, past our past self, past identity, but also like,
Speaker 3: you know, my past body that was maybe a little
Speaker 3: bit more able than my.
Speaker 4: Current body is. Or you know what I grieve, Yeah, innocence. Oh,
Speaker 4: and I guess.
Speaker 3: When I say innocence, I'm thinking about a younger version
Speaker 3: of myself. This is gonna sound sad, but like a
Speaker 3: younger version of myself that wasn't as aware of how
Speaker 3: hard the world can be. And I think that's something
Speaker 3: that we learn just as we get older, we're exposed
Speaker 3: to more hardships in life, whether it's our own hardships
Speaker 3: or whether it's the hardships of others. There's kind of
Speaker 3: an innocence that comes with like being young or even
Speaker 3: a teenager in your early twenties, and everything can just
Speaker 3: feel really like fresh and great, and it's not to
Speaker 3: say it doesn't now, but there is a of a
Speaker 3: tinge there. There's a lens of also knowing how hard
Speaker 3: life can be for so many people.
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I definitely feel like
Speaker 2: time speeds up as we get older. You know, there's
Speaker 2: some quickening that's been happening. I don't know, I'm noticing
Speaker 2: it more. The perception of time changes.
Speaker 4: It's definitely the case.
Speaker 3: I feel it as well, where like a whole other
Speaker 3: year passes and I'm like, it's already Christmas.
Speaker 4: Didn't we just do that?
Speaker 1: True?
Speaker 4: This is an.
Speaker 3: Interesting concept because as we get older, we have more routine,
Speaker 3: more structure, and less novelty in our day to day life.
Speaker 3: When we're young, a lot of things are very new
Speaker 3: and fresh and exciting. But when we're older, we settle
Speaker 3: into our routines, and so this sense of sameness can
Speaker 3: can make it feel like time is passing quite fast,
Speaker 3: and when we look back at like the past week
Speaker 3: or the past month, we're like, gosh, it just sort
Speaker 3: of flu by because I was so set in my
Speaker 3: routines and doing the same thing. You know, I get up,
Speaker 3: I go to the gym, I go to work. I
Speaker 3: don't go to gym the morning. I'm just saying, case
Speaker 3: people do go to the gym in the morning, put
Speaker 3: on you clarify that. You know, if people get up,
Speaker 3: they have their morning routine, they go to work, they
Speaker 3: come home, they make dinner, they go to bed. You know,
Speaker 3: that sense of sameness five days a week or whatever
Speaker 3: it might be, creates this feeling of time just sort
Speaker 3: of slipping by. So to that, I would suggest a
Speaker 3: couple of sort of antidotes or ways we can overcome that.
Speaker 4: First of all, savor.
Speaker 3: The moments, yea, even if their routine moments, just like
Speaker 3: savor them when you sit in the morning with that
Speaker 3: cup of coffee and you take those few SIPs. Savor
Speaker 3: them when you're having that really nice lunch and the
Speaker 3: sun is shining down on you and you can feel
Speaker 3: the sun against your skin. Savor those moments. Be really
Speaker 3: mindful and present with them is one way to sort
Speaker 3: of help kind of slow down time, to actually be
Speaker 3: mindful rather than mindless and thinking about other things.
Speaker 1: So true.
Speaker 4: But the second is find novelty, have new experiences, try.
Speaker 3: New hobbies, new activities, go out, meet new people, chat
Speaker 3: with the person at the bus stop. Newness and novelty
Speaker 3: will also help it feel like there's more actually happening
Speaker 3: in your day to day life, and the brain is
Speaker 3: more likely to remember those new novel experiences than the
Speaker 3: more kind of mundane routine things that we're doing.
Speaker 2: I love that because I feel like, in a way
Speaker 2: for me, when I think about a new hobby and
Speaker 2: as you're talking about it, what comes up is like, oh,
Speaker 2: I have to go out and socialize, Like, oh do
Speaker 2: I have to? And it's interesting because it's so funny.
Speaker 1: I go through the same loop where I'm like.
Speaker 2: Feeling stuck and then you're like, hey, you should go
Speaker 2: out and connect, and I'm like, oh, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I want to connect. And then I go out
Speaker 2: and connect and I come back I'm like that was great.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like we're so so stuck in our
Speaker 2: ways that we can be a little bit stubborn.
Speaker 3: I e.
Speaker 2: I can be stubborn to like be a little bit
Speaker 2: more fluid. You know.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's interesting because different people like different kind
Speaker 3: of personality traits will mean that some people are more
Speaker 3: kind of open to new experiences and other people are less.
Speaker 3: And you know, I know for myself, I'm certainly like,
Speaker 3: I hate routine, I hate structure in my week.
Speaker 4: I like every day to be different.
Speaker 3: Yeah, despite the chaos that that can sometimes bring. But
Speaker 3: I'm not a kind of routined person and I love
Speaker 3: new things. I will try a lot of things, not
Speaker 3: all things, a lot of things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I find it very exciting.
Speaker 2: I can imagine as well. We can feel a lot
Speaker 2: of different things when the reality is as you're getting older,
Speaker 2: you're getting closer to death, and that's that's a lot
Speaker 2: to sit with sometimes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, there's the fear of the unknown totally, the
Speaker 3: fear of change, but also the fear of death that
Speaker 3: can be a very real source of anxiety for a
Speaker 3: lot of people. In fact, there's this sort of body
Speaker 3: of work and research in psychological literature around death anxiety
Speaker 3: as an actual condition that exists.
Speaker 1: It's a condition.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, there are two leading clinical psychologists in Australia,
Speaker 3: Rachel and Ross Menzies, who do fabulous work in this space.
Speaker 4: They've written a book called Mortals if.
Speaker 3: Anyone's interested in reading more about death and death anxiety.
Speaker 3: But it really is this fascinating concept that there are
Speaker 3: some of us who think more about death than others,
Speaker 3: and for some of us. That thought process can become
Speaker 3: all consuming, overwhelming. It can lead to panic attacks, it
Speaker 3: can lead to feeling quite paralyzed in life, or feeling
Speaker 3: constantly anxious as we go through the world.
Speaker 2: Totally, I'm really glad to hear that there is something
Speaker 2: around this because I definitely, whether it's myself or friends
Speaker 2: that are older, like we talk about, you know, death
Speaker 2: in a way and noticing like for me, even just
Speaker 2: saying the word death and it's like wow, Like it
Speaker 2: is such a taboo word. We don't talk about it enough,
Speaker 2: and it's important we do. But it's just good to
Speaker 2: know that it's a normal thing to feel as well
Speaker 2: as you get older, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, to become more aware of it, more conscious
Speaker 3: of it, and you know, being aware of our own
Speaker 3: mortality is not a bad thing. It can be really
Speaker 3: useful to help us make some really values aligned decisions
Speaker 3: for ourselves. What we don't want is it to riddle
Speaker 3: us with anxiety to the point where we feel like
Speaker 3: we can't move through the world in the way we
Speaker 3: want to.
Speaker 2: After this break, we're going to be teaching you how
Speaker 2: to build a healthier relationship with aging. Stay with us, Okay,
Speaker 2: So how do we build a healthier relationship with aging
Speaker 2: because it is happening to all of us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no one gets out of this life alive. Sorry,
Speaker 4: was that too much?
Speaker 2: I don't know why it sounds. Really, you're all stucky,
Speaker 2: you're all gonna die. Oh my god, you're all trapped
Speaker 2: in this body.
Speaker 4: To make friends at parties. Okay, I'll keep.
Speaker 3: That one inside my head.
Speaker 1: Oh, I feel like.
Speaker 3: So that's the first takeaway.
Speaker 4: But my point is.
Speaker 3: Now, I feel like anything I'm gonna say is just
Speaker 3: be Death is inevitable.
Speaker 1: But it's true. Like you saw me stuttering over the world, I.
Speaker 3: Was like, and you'm just more used to talking about
Speaker 3: things like this.
Speaker 4: I think that's what it is.
Speaker 3: Okay, But I guess what the point I'm trying to
Speaker 3: get at is that, you know, we need to acknowledge
Speaker 3: death is being inevitable for everyone. Aging is being inevitable.
Speaker 3: It's gonna happen to all of us, and no matter
Speaker 3: how hard we try to resist it with all the
Speaker 3: face creams and the injections and the peptites and the
Speaker 3: whatever else.
Speaker 4: Is the trend at the moment that I'm not across.
Speaker 3: It's the buzzwords I have picked up aging happens. The
Speaker 3: first part really is an acceptance around it. Acceptance is
Speaker 3: me saying, you know, I don't have to like the
Speaker 3: fact that I'm always getting older.
Speaker 4: It doesn't always feel pleasant.
Speaker 3: It certainly comes with some changes that can be quite
Speaker 3: uncomfortable or hard to sit with. You know, physical changes
Speaker 3: to my body, you know, the emotional changes that come
Speaker 3: through perimenopause and menopause. All these changes that are ahead
Speaker 3: of us that may in many ways be uncomfortable. But
Speaker 3: an acceptance around the fact that they will occur. So
Speaker 3: how do we best kind of arm ourselves to be
Speaker 3: able to cope with them when they do happen? How
Speaker 3: do we lean into this feeling of this is normal.
Speaker 3: Everyone's going through this same process. I'm not alone here.
Speaker 3: I'm not the only one aging. We're all doing it together.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So true.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because I know we were talking about before,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, isn't acceptance one of those final stages
Speaker 2: of grief as well? I just thought of it just then,
Speaker 2: as you're talking about acceptance. I'm like, oh wow, there
Speaker 2: is so much power in it, just that surrender and
Speaker 2: letting it happen.
Speaker 3: We go through the struggle of it before we kind
Speaker 3: of get to that surrender. Yeah, I know, we're also
Speaker 3: talking about gray hairs and this idea of like, you know,
Speaker 3: women perhaps are maybe more likely to have some of
Speaker 3: these conversations than men, I would say, you know, noticing
Speaker 3: the gray hairs.
Speaker 4: That are coming out. Yeah, and you know, we have
Speaker 4: a choice.
Speaker 3: Do we sort of accept them and let them be
Speaker 3: or do we make a choice to kind of cover
Speaker 3: them up and do something about them.
Speaker 4: But the reality is they're coming whether we like them
Speaker 4: or not.
Speaker 1: It's true, It's true. I can't wait to rock the
Speaker 1: gray hair eventually. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, as you know, I'm such a pro journaler and
Speaker 2: I feel like journaling is such a great way to
Speaker 2: kind of excavate and unpack what's going on for us internally.
Speaker 2: So do you have any questions we can kind of
Speaker 2: start journaling about.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, For listeners out there who are wanting to reflect
Speaker 3: on their own relationship with age and aging, here's a
Speaker 3: few questions and a shiny feel free to think through
Speaker 3: these and give us your thoughts as well.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 3: So, first question, what beliefs about aging have you inherited
Speaker 3: that you could perhaps question or even rewrite. Second question,
Speaker 3: when you look back at your younger self, what qualities
Speaker 3: or perspectives have improved with age? How have you actually
Speaker 3: grown or changed in ways that you like?
Speaker 1: I like that question.
Speaker 4: Have you grown or changed in ways that you like?
Speaker 1: I really hope?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 1: No, no, No, I have? I have? I definitely I have.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 3: Next question, what would it mean to see aging as
Speaker 3: growth instead of loss?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: Next one, who in your life or even a celebrity
Speaker 3: or person you can look up to, has aged in
Speaker 3: a way that you admire and what makes their attitude
Speaker 3: or approach towards aging inspiring?
Speaker 1: I already know some. Yeah, Michelle Obama.
Speaker 2: I was watching an episode that an interview she was
Speaker 2: doing recently, and I'm like, damn, she is goals.
Speaker 1: She's just like she just knows who she is. She's
Speaker 1: so clear on her purpose.
Speaker 2: I don't know, just I love yeah, and everyone just
Speaker 2: loves her. She's so authentic and she just really owns
Speaker 2: who she is. Uh.
Speaker 4: I like that.
Speaker 3: And the last question I've got is how a might
Speaker 3: embracing age change the way you spend your time, the
Speaker 3: way you care for your body, or the way you
Speaker 3: connect with others.
Speaker 4: So a couple of questions there.
Speaker 1: For a big question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll take some time. I'm actually going to journal
Speaker 2: about this on my ride home. I love that these
Speaker 2: questions are really helping us to build a healthy relationship
Speaker 2: with aging and really starting to challenge and you know, unpacked,
Speaker 2: get curious, like, I feel like this is really healthy
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: And the last thing, actually, i'd recommend for people a
Speaker 3: practical thing you can do spend more time with older people,
Speaker 3: so true, get curious about older people's experiences, about the
Speaker 3: lives they've lived. You know, talk to them with the
Speaker 3: view of learning from the wisdom that they have. Befriend
Speaker 3: the old neighbor next door in the apartment complex below, you,
Speaker 3: you know, like, find those older people who exist in
Speaker 3: your life somewhere because there's a chance they're feeling lonely
Speaker 3: and isolated and would love the connection. But also there
Speaker 3: is so much that you can learn from them, and
Speaker 3: being able to connect with older people will also take
Speaker 3: some of the fear and anxiety out of aging when
Speaker 3: you see how much they have to give and offer
Speaker 3: and the incredible lives have often lived can be a
Speaker 3: source of inspiration and hope as opposed to anxiety and fear.
Speaker 2: And it also can be inspiration for them as well
Speaker 2: as the elder, because they realize how much wisdom they
Speaker 2: do have and how they can still be contributing to
Speaker 2: the world in their ways.
Speaker 4: Yes, they get to give back up.
Speaker 2: Next, Why does having too many options stress us out
Speaker 2: to the point where we can't even choose?
Speaker 1: Stay with us?
Speaker 3: Do you understand how your behavior is confusing?
Speaker 1: Fine?
Speaker 4: Why are we like this the best way to understand behavior? Well,
Speaker 4: some look at the causes.
Speaker 1: Of an action, So why are we like this?
Speaker 2: Okay, So I don't know if you find this, but
Speaker 2: anytime I'm on Netflix and I want to find a
Speaker 2: show to watch, I end up spending so much time
Speaker 2: trying to find a show to watch in the same
Speaker 2: time where I could have just watched a show, And
Speaker 2: then I just I.
Speaker 1: Don't choose to watch anything at all.
Speaker 2: Like, is that like decision fatigue or like what's going
Speaker 2: on there?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: Well, yes, but decision fatigue.
Speaker 3: But it's actually kind of this idea of the paradox
Speaker 3: of choice. Think about how many options and choices there
Speaker 3: are on Netflix. I don't know how many, but there's
Speaker 3: a lot of endless Yes, yes, this is the idea
Speaker 3: that we feel like having choice and option is going
Speaker 3: to come with this sense of like freedom, and it's
Speaker 3: going to be really good for us. But actually what
Speaker 3: we find is that having choices is only good.
Speaker 4: For us up to a certain point.
Speaker 3: After that point, it actually becomes very overwhelming and paralyzing
Speaker 3: and it makes us it makes it hard for us
Speaker 3: to choose any decision. It's this idea that the grass
Speaker 3: is always greener, you know, but there might be something
Speaker 3: better or more interesting that I could find.
Speaker 4: We see it with like Netflix. We see it when
Speaker 4: we go to the ice cream shop and there's lots
Speaker 4: of different flavors and I'm like, oh.
Speaker 3: My gosh, but what if I don't choose that one
Speaker 3: and it ends up being really good, then what I'm
Speaker 3: going to regret that for the rest.
Speaker 4: Of my life?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So true.
Speaker 3: We see this also with dating apps these days. True
Speaker 3: paradox of choice comes through a lot with dating apps.
Speaker 3: Now that people feel like there's this kind of endless
Speaker 3: supply of people's profiles that we can kind of swipe through,
Speaker 3: what we actually see is there's much less kind of
Speaker 3: commitment to agreeing to meet up with someone and go
Speaker 3: on that date, or to swipe and have a conversation
Speaker 3: with them, because it feels like, well, what if I
Speaker 3: find someone better on the app? What if you know,
Speaker 3: there's someone more aligned to me and more suited to
Speaker 3: me out there, And so this idea of too much
Speaker 3: choice is actually really quite paralyzing for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit like you spiral into analysis paralysis,
Speaker 2: you know, yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, definitely done that before.
Speaker 3: And the thing is, again, people can can kind of
Speaker 3: fall into one of two categories. So we have people
Speaker 3: who are the maximizers, right, These are the people who
Speaker 3: will become very overwhelmed by just the endless choices, and
Speaker 3: they're the people.
Speaker 4: Who are looking for the perfect choice.
Speaker 3: They're aiming for the best, and so they really get
Speaker 3: quite paralyzed by all the options.
Speaker 1: Sounds like me.
Speaker 3: But then on the other hand, we have people who
Speaker 3: fall in the category of satisfices, okay, And these are
Speaker 3: the people who are like, it's good enough the option
Speaker 3: that I choose, it's good enough, and so that's fine,
Speaker 3: and they don't kind of feel overwhelmed or obsessed by
Speaker 3: this idea of finding the best.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also I can imagine it's a world of
Speaker 2: just trusting the decision you make, you know, like in
Speaker 2: the present moment but also the future.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: What should be the main points that people should take
Speaker 2: away from today?
Speaker 3: So, first thing, aging is inevitable, We're all going to
Speaker 3: go through it. Secondly, lean into the parts of aging
Speaker 3: that can inspire you and fill you with growth, but
Speaker 3: also accept the parts that are perhaps going to be
Speaker 3: a little bit more painful or harder. Lastly, spend a
Speaker 3: bit of time reflecting on where your beliefs about age
Speaker 3: and aging have actually come from, and if you can
Speaker 3: do with tweaking or challenging those beliefs at all.
Speaker 2: If you'd like us to talk about something specific on
Speaker 2: the podcast, please get in contact with us.
Speaker 1: Polics are in the show notes.
Speaker 3: And while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a
Speaker 3: substitute for therapy or a diagnosis. Always take what we
Speaker 3: share here in the context of your own health and
Speaker 3: lived experience and look if anything we brought up today
Speaker 3: in the conversation was difficult for you to listen to.
Speaker 3: We have additional resources with links in the show notes.
Speaker 3: If you are needing more immediate support, there are organizations
Speaker 3: Life Lifeline and Beyond Blue.
Speaker 4: That can provide that assistance. See you later, See you
Speaker 3: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 3: waters that this podcast is recorded on.