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Speaker 1: When a teenager goes missing, a lot of assumptions are made.

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Speaker 1: This period in our lives is notorious for being when

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Speaker 1: we strike out as independent beings. We push back on authority,

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Speaker 1: and we sometimes make risky decisions as our brains, yet

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Speaker 1: to fully mature, don't grasp the consequences of our actions.

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Speaker 1: So if a teenager goes missing, there's an assumption that

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Speaker 1: perhaps this was a conscious choice to run away from

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Speaker 1: the rules and routines that feel so constricting. But what

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't a conscious choice. What if the hours

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Speaker 1: and days that are spent assuming your decision was to

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Speaker 1: run away are actually the lost hours of an investigation that,

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Speaker 1: forty years later, still has no answer. That's the story

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Speaker 1: of Elaine Johnson and carry An Joel. They were just

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Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen and living in an area most of

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Speaker 1: us would probably know as the Shire, a beachside suburbs

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Speaker 1: south of Sydney. It's the early nineteen eighties and the

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Speaker 1: pair are surrounded by a large group of friends who

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Speaker 1: are regularly getting together to party, write horses and motor bikes,

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Speaker 1: or hang out at the local pinball arcade. There's no

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Speaker 1: mobile phones, no uber, very little money, for taxis, so

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Speaker 1: Eline and Kerrey get to where they need to go

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Speaker 1: however they can. Sometimes it's riding a train or catching

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Speaker 1: a lift with the mate. But when the train stop

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Speaker 1: at midnight, sometimes the only way to get home is

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Speaker 1: to stick out a thumb and hope for someone going

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Speaker 1: your way to pull over. The name Ivan Malatt hadn't

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Speaker 1: been broadcast around the country back then. The serial killer's

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Speaker 1: arrest for kidnapping and killing backpackers he'd picked up hitchhiking

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Speaker 1: wouldn't happen until nineteen ninety four, Free Lane and Kerry.

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Speaker 1: This carefree life came with some hardships. Not going home

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Speaker 1: to mum and dad meant they often would sleep rough

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Speaker 1: in a park, on a stationary train, or bunking with friends.

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Speaker 1: So when two young girls whose lives are spent hitch

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Speaker 1: hiking and dossing down wherever they can find a place,

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Speaker 1: go missing, what assumptions would you make? I'm Claire Murphy

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Speaker 1: and This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. The people left behind after

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Speaker 1: Elaine and Cary's disappearance are still searching despite the now,

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Speaker 1: forty five years since the pair were last seen, Elaine's

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Speaker 1: sisters continue to clock every face they see in the

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Speaker 1: hopes that one day it will be hers. But as

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Speaker 1: they continue to gather all the information they can about

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Speaker 1: Elaine's final days and weeks, they discover more and more

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Speaker 1: about not just her movements and decisions, that the world

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Speaker 1: she was existing in was also a place where predators lived.

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Speaker 1: The police didn't follow up on leeds, and in some cases,

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Speaker 1: documentation has simply vanished, just like the girls had. Kate

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Speaker 1: Ketcher is the host of Out from the Cold, searching

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Speaker 1: for Elaine. She's been putting together the pieces of Elaine

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Speaker 1: Johnson's life, hoping that someone out there can bring them

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Speaker 1: the key to locating the teenager who still lives on

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Speaker 1: in the hearts and minds of her two little sisters.

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Speaker 1: Desperate for answers, she joins us, Now, Kate, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for taking a bit of time out of

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Speaker 1: your day to have a chat with us. Let's get

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Speaker 1: started with discovering who these two young girls were at

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Speaker 1: the time that they disappeared. Who was Elaine Johnson, What

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Speaker 1: was her life like at the time before she went missing?

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Speaker 2: Elaine's life before she went missing was actually quite sort

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Speaker 2: of that typical tour point Australian you know, teenage life,

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Speaker 2: you know, growing up by the sea side. So she

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Speaker 2: was originally from the UK and she emigrated with her

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Speaker 2: family when she was about five, and the family settled

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Speaker 2: in Cronulla, the southern suburb of Sydney or the Shire

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Speaker 2: as a lot of Ozzie's would know it as, and

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Speaker 2: she did sort of you know, typical teenage things. Hung

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Speaker 2: out with friends, went to school, went to the beach.

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Speaker 2: Her family sort of knew her as in a bit

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Speaker 2: of a wildflower. She was a hippie. She wore flower pants,

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Speaker 2: she's lemon to sort of you know, like lots of

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Speaker 2: Ozzie kids do, to lighten her already blonde hair, and

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Speaker 2: just skateboard, just sort of everyday beachside life. I think

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Speaker 2: you could probably summon others.

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Speaker 1: And what about Carrie Anne Joel who was.

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Speaker 2: She carry and Joel? So Elaine was sixteen at the

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Speaker 2: time that she disappeared, and carry An Joel was seventeen,

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Speaker 2: so there was a slight age gap between the two friends.

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Speaker 2: Carrie lived in Carrying Bar, so not too far from

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Speaker 2: where Elaine lived in Kernel and she was a little

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Speaker 2: bit more of a leader, I'd say, in terms of

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Speaker 2: what I've been told from friends. You know, she didn't

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Speaker 2: suffer fools. She had a strong personality and I suppose

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Speaker 2: she lived by her own rules, which sounds a bit funny,

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Speaker 2: I suppose when you're a young teenager. But you know,

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Speaker 2: she just knew what she wanted and probably pushed the boundaries.

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Speaker 2: But she also, from what I've been told, was a

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Speaker 2: very loyal friend.

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Speaker 1: These two have become friends and they spend quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of time hanging out together, and they've got quite

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Speaker 1: a wide range of friends in and around the area

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Speaker 1: of the shire where they live. What kind of things

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Speaker 1: were they into, what were they doing together and what

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Speaker 1: was their day to day life looking like it then.

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Speaker 2: As far as we're aware, and what I mean by

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Speaker 2: that is what their friends and family or Elane's family

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Speaker 2: have shared. Into riding bikes, Kerry was described as a

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Speaker 2: tomboy by some of her friends. So we would ride

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Speaker 2: motocross bikes and go to the beach. Kerry had an

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Speaker 2: interest in the motocross scene. Her brother, elder brother at

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Speaker 2: the time, was a motocross rider and so they would

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Speaker 2: travel around the shire on weekends taking their motocross bikes

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Speaker 2: along the beach, the sand dunes and then go to

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Speaker 2: races up the North coast.

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Speaker 1: So with the information that you've gathered from those people

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned, so family and friends of Elaine and Carrie,

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Speaker 1: what do we know about their weeks leading up to

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Speaker 1: their disappearance in early nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, what we know is on the police records

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Speaker 2: of today, the girls are listed as disappearing on the

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Speaker 2: first of February nineteen eighty. We don't know the exact

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Speaker 2: details of exactly when they disappeared. It seems to vary

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Speaker 2: depending on speaking to friends of the time and the family.

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Speaker 2: But Elaine's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: and Carrie's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: As listeners will find from the podcast, the dates don't

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Speaker 2: match up in terms of what is in the official

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Speaker 2: files and whether there are official files.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned that because in your investigations you've found

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Speaker 1: that the family have also found that some of the

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Speaker 1: original documentation that would have been taken at the time

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Speaker 1: of the girls being reported missing has vanished.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as we're aware, yes, that is the case,

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Speaker 2: particularly for Elane back in the nineteen eighties, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: appear to have been an official missing person's file for her.

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Speaker 2: Kerry's official file is dated February nineteen eighty one. Whether

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Speaker 2: or not that's human error, we're not sure, but both

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Speaker 2: families have stated that they did report the girls missing

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Speaker 2: in February nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 1: Has there been an explanation for that?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've mentioned some human error, But obviously in

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Speaker 1: the time from the nineteen eighties to now, there are

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Speaker 1: mergers of police stations, there's the digitization of a lot

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Speaker 1: of these records. I mean, they're not the only case

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Speaker 1: that we know of where records have gone missing in

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Speaker 1: between these times. Do you think it was more likely

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Speaker 1: through your investigations that these were cases that were never

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Speaker 1: truly documented correctly in the first place, or was it

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Speaker 1: a case of they probably got caught up in a

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Speaker 1: lot of admin that's happened between then and now.

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Speaker 2: From what we sort of gauged, it was more a

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Speaker 2: case that Elaine and Kerry were treated as runaways, and

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Speaker 2: so the suggestion is that, oh, well, you know they're

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Speaker 2: going away for a couple of days, they'll be back

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Speaker 2: and is that right? No, if someone's reported missing, you

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Speaker 2: should at least have a file that says they were

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Speaker 2: reported missing on this particular day and then you know, found.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's a difficult question to answer because

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Speaker 2: as far as the family are aware, for Elaine, she

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Speaker 2: was treated as a runaway. As far also as they're aware,

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Speaker 2: there is no file for her. There is a file now,

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Speaker 2: but back then the crucial time, there wasn't one.

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Speaker 1: Does that then also play into the fact that witnesses

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Speaker 1: at that time were not spoken to. In the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it mentions that some of these witnesses, friends and people

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Speaker 1: who were around at the time went until until some

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Speaker 1: three decades later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Twenty fifteen is when the friends

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Speaker 2: of Elaine's were spoken to, as in police sought statements

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Speaker 2: from friends. So imagine, you know, imagine your friend disappears

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty and three decades later you're asked, oh,

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Speaker 2: can you tell us what you remember from that time.

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Speaker 2: It's an incredible amount of time and it's just a

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Speaker 2: small part of Elaine's story, and particularly Elaine's sisters Helen

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Speaker 2: and Wendy's story trying to search for her, which is

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Speaker 2: the podcast focuses on their forty five year search for

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Speaker 2: their sister.

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Speaker 1: Well, can we look at the circumstances leading up to

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Speaker 1: the girl's disappearance. I understand that Elaine's family had gone

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Speaker 1: away and Elaine was supposed to go with them. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't turn up. So the family goes away for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks camping, but return home early to discover

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Speaker 1: that Elaine's been using the house not just for sleeping in.

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Speaker 1: What do they discover and what then leads to the

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Speaker 1: family having a falling out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right. So in December nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 2: the family go on what would have been their first

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Speaker 2: family camping holiday together and as far as we've been told,

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Speaker 2: Elane was at home at the time and she was

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Speaker 2: at a friend's place. The family went away for three

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Speaker 2: weeks to a month over that Christmas break, so it

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Speaker 2: was just after Christmas and the weather changed. But also

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Speaker 2: the parents were they were concerned as much as you're

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Speaker 2: probably a bit frustrated that you know your teenager has

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Speaker 2: decided to know potentially rebel before going on a trip.

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Speaker 2: It would be in the back if your mind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: what's happening? So They're headed home early and by all

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Speaker 2: accounts sort of interrupted. We classed as a house party,

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Speaker 2: but it seems like it was more like, you know,

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Speaker 2: teenagers were there for a couple of weeks. So the

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Speaker 2: families returned home to sort of every bed in the

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Speaker 2: house being slept in, empty alcohol bottles, in tea chests.

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Speaker 2: In the house. Someone's car had been driven into the front.

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Speaker 2: It was a fibro rental, so had been driven into

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Speaker 2: the front of the home. So obviously a massive shock

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Speaker 2: for you know, particularly Elaine's parents to arrive home. As

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Speaker 2: I just mentioned, you know, it was a rental property,

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Speaker 2: so imagine coming home and seeing an absolute mess and

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Speaker 2: you know that you're going to have to clean that

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Speaker 2: up and the potential costs and you might even get evicted.

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Speaker 2: So that's you know, a lot of emotions are running

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Speaker 2: high at that point, and Elaine was home at the time,

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Speaker 2: and her parents had a you know, sort of like

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Speaker 2: a talking to her, I guess you could say, really

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Speaker 2: sort of saying, you know, shape up or ship out,

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Speaker 2: and at the heat of the moment, she decided to leave.

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Speaker 1: Do we know where she left to?

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Speaker 2: We do, So she left to stay with different people.

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Speaker 2: We've been told, and her father and her brother did

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Speaker 2: go and collect her from someone else's house and brought

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Speaker 2: her back home, but then she headed off again. And

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Speaker 2: it is for some family members they believe the last

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Speaker 2: time that they can clearly remember seeing Elaine was after

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Speaker 2: the camping trip in January nineteen eighty at the house

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Speaker 2: Elene's sisters, Helen and Wendy. You know, Helen was twelve

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Speaker 2: going on thirteen, when he was fourteen going on fifteen.

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Speaker 2: They're also at the age where they're not you know,

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Speaker 2: your sister goes out to on weekends, stays at friends' houses,

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Speaker 2: the nuances of your sister being known as being missing

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Speaker 2: or not coming home. It doesn't sort of click at

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Speaker 2: that point. You've sort of used to her coming and going,

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Speaker 2: and then the goings last longer, and then that's when

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Speaker 2: the questions start being asked.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of their time at this stage is

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Speaker 1: spent at a Cranulla pinball arcade, so plenty of teenagers

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Speaker 1: ago there to hang out, shoot some pool, play some games.

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Speaker 1: But as Elaine's family has since discovered, and what you've

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Speaker 1: discovered too through your podcast, is that there was a

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Speaker 1: bit of a darker side to that arcade too. Can

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Speaker 1: you just talk us through what you've discovered about the

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Speaker 1: people who were sort of circling around at that time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a great description of Flashes as it was known

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Speaker 2: at the time. So it was an arcade that sort

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Speaker 2: of it seemed all manner of age groups would gather

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Speaker 2: from within the shire and then sort of neighboring suburbs

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Speaker 2: and the people that would hang out there, so you know,

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Speaker 2: that could range from someone age eleven to someone in

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Speaker 2: their twenties, so it is a very wide group of

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Speaker 2: individuals in terms of the people that would hang out there.

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Speaker 2: It's probably best to say what we've found out that

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Speaker 2: went on there rather than the actual people. So I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to a woman who we call Amy on the

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Speaker 2: podcast and claims that when she was around eleven years old,

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Speaker 2: she went down to Flashes to look for her sister.

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Speaker 2: It was a Sunday evening and her mother had said, look,

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Speaker 2: could you go and you know, bring your sister home

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Speaker 2: it's time for dinner. So Amy went down to Flashes

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Speaker 2: and asked someone that was Slashes at the time, an

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Speaker 2: older man who said, oh, you know, I'm looking for

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Speaker 2: my sister. And the suggestion was that he said oh, look,

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen her, but come in and wait for her.

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Speaker 2: She might turn up. And the man gave Amy some

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Speaker 2: coins to play some video games with. And when the

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Speaker 2: coins ran out, Amy looked up and the door to

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Speaker 2: Flashes had been pulled. It was a roller door and

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Speaker 2: pulled shut, and it was only Amy and this man there.

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Speaker 2: And Amy recalls a man, you know, walking towards or

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Speaker 2: heading towards a panel in the wall, and then the

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Speaker 2: panel had been removed, and she says she remembers there

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Speaker 2: being a mattress and potentially a blanket the floor, and

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Speaker 2: the man went into the I suppose it's like a

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was a cruel space, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like an official sort of room. And the

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Speaker 2: man sat on the mattress and tapped the mattress and

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Speaker 2: sort of indicating, come and sit with me, you know.

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Speaker 2: And even you know, she's a very insightful woman, but

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Speaker 2: even as a child, she knew that it wasn't right.

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Speaker 2: It's something just didn't sit with her right. I don't

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Speaker 2: believe she said anything to him, but rather just sort

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Speaker 2: of refused, as in a quiet refusal. And so the

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Speaker 2: man said, okay, well, I'll take you home. He didn't

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Speaker 2: take her home, and you know, thankfully she's she's alive

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Speaker 2: and able to tell her story. But what she claims

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Speaker 2: happened to her sort of gives an indication of the

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Speaker 2: type of people that did hang around flashes and around

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Speaker 2: you know, young women and girls at the time.

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Speaker 1: Well, last, the thing you've exposed to is that around

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Speaker 1: the late seventies early eighties, there were quite a few

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Speaker 1: documented cases of young girls being approached or being sexually

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Speaker 1: assaulted in and around the Shia. Do you feel like

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Speaker 1: that's what Elaine and Kerry got mixed up in. Does

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Speaker 1: it feel like your investigations maybe they were exposed to

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Speaker 1: some of those people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think they're definitely exposed to some of

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Speaker 2: those people. As to whether or not those people were

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Speaker 2: involved in Elaine and Kerry's disappearance, we can't say, but

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Speaker 2: definitely there was a lot of very questionable people that

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Speaker 2: were sort of like orbiting the area in which Elaine

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Speaker 2: and Carrie were surrounded in. You know, I'm not suggesting

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Speaker 2: that they were friends with these people, but that you know,

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Speaker 2: it was a very sort of tight knit community. You

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Speaker 2: sort of if you're interested in surfing, you hang out

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Speaker 2: with all the surfers. They were in the area of

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Speaker 2: Kerry and Elaine. Whether or not they knew exactly what

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Speaker 2: was going on not say, but they were definitely around

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Speaker 2: them at the time.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to two crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with the host of Out from the Cold

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Speaker 1: Searching for Elaine Kate Catcher. Up next, Kate tells us

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Speaker 1: when police actually started to investigate the disappearances of Elaine

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Speaker 1: and Kerry. You've mentioned that police did treat these two

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Speaker 1: girls disappearance as runaways, But did they investigate it all

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Speaker 1: during those three decades up until twenty fifteen where they

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Speaker 1: started taking witness statements, like was any effort made to

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Speaker 1: locate the girls in that timeframe.

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Speaker 2: From what we can see? I don't believe. So. I've

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Speaker 2: contacted me Southwest Police. I've been told this is an

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Speaker 2: open investigation and so they cannot comment as for when

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Speaker 2: this investigation was opened. I haven't ever been able to

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Speaker 2: determine and that was so.

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Speaker 1: There's also some suggestion that the girls were staying at

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Speaker 1: one of two caravan parks in the area, or that

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Speaker 1: they in fact maybe stayed at both. What do we

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Speaker 1: know about who they were staying with there and could

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Speaker 1: that potentially be where they went missing from.

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Speaker 2: It's a good question. Yes. So there was two caravan

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Speaker 2: parks in the area that the girls are believed to

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Speaker 2: have stayed at or at least visited. One visited. One

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Speaker 2: stayed at the Cronulla Caravan Park, which locals would know

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Speaker 2: was Janola Caravan Park, and then Warrenora Caravan Park just

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Speaker 2: down the Warrinora River. We do believe we know who

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Speaker 2: they were staying with. At this stage, we can't say

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Speaker 2: too much about that. Well, I can't say too much

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Speaker 2: about that from what we know. One day early in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, while Kerrie's mother was at work, Kerrie had

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Speaker 2: borrowed her car and gone for a joy rise and

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Speaker 2: she had gone down to She'd driven from caring Bar

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Speaker 2: where she lived, down to Cronulla where Flashes the arcade

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Speaker 2: was and sort of you know, turned up beat the horn.

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Speaker 2: And what we've been told is that a Lane and

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Speaker 2: a third girl came out of Flashes and jumped in

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Speaker 2: the car and then all three girls drove around the

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Speaker 2: shire looking for other friends. Then it came time that

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Speaker 2: Kerry had to return the car home and she had

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Speaker 2: a bingle in the car sort of in a bit

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Speaker 2: of a panic because she was unlicensed. She took her

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Speaker 2: mother's car home, there was damage to part of the

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Speaker 2: car and took off, sort of grabbed belongings and the

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Speaker 2: three girls headed off and as far as we know,

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Speaker 2: they headed back to Flashes. That's all we know that

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Speaker 2: they disappeared from Flashes, and some friends have told us

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Speaker 2: that they had headed north. And when I say headed north,

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Speaker 2: this goes back to Kerry's sort of hobby of motocross.

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Speaker 2: So there was a motocross track just on the outskirts

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Speaker 2: of Newcastle in Jilliby that Kerry and a friend of hers,

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Speaker 2: not Elane, but another friend that would go and sort

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Speaker 2: of visit for a couple of days or a couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks if they needed to just time away from

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Speaker 2: day to day life. So there is a suggestion that

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Speaker 2: Elaine and Kerry took off north. Is that to Gilliby,

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Speaker 2: We're not sure, but we have looked into that side

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Speaker 2: of things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these girls are getting around, however, they can

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Speaker 1: borrowing mum's car without permission, catching public transport, but hitchhiking

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Speaker 1: was a pretty regular part of their transport needs, which

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Speaker 1: we now know after some pretty terrible incidents, is not

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Speaker 1: a safe thing to do. But they'd been doing it

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Speaker 1: for a while, and there is some suggestion that perhaps

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Speaker 1: they got into a car at Flashes at the arcade

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Speaker 1: right before they went missing, and that car might have

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Speaker 1: a pretty similar description to when you mentioned Amy who

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Speaker 1: got locked into the arcade that time and wasn't taken home.

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Speaker 1: She was taken in a car that sounds very similar

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Speaker 1: to this one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I do talk about that there is a white car,

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Speaker 2: a familiar white car that seems to have been in

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Speaker 2: the Cronulla area. People recognized it. I've spoken with someone

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Speaker 2: who remembers being sort of chased as a young girl

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Speaker 2: through the backstreets of Cronulla and she got away the

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Speaker 2: only way that she She sort of says, look, I

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Speaker 2: was very good at running, so she just ran. She

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Speaker 2: ran across an oval. She did whatever she could to

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Speaker 2: get away from this car. I've since shown a photo

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Speaker 2: of a car that could be the car to her

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Speaker 2: and she says it does look very very similar, similar

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Speaker 2: markings in how she described it. And I think that's

378
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Speaker 2: a lot of what we've uncovered. And when I say

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Speaker 2: we Elene's sister, Helen has just been so instrumental in

380
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Speaker 2: this investigation. It's been her forty five years of her

381
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Speaker 2: life that she has searched for her sister. So that's

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Speaker 2: why I say a wee because I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's her story that I'm privileged enough to be able

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Speaker 2: to share. So in terms of the white car, it

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Speaker 2: could be. But then when you think about it, there

386
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Speaker 2: are so many white cars back then as well. We

387
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Speaker 2: don't think it's the same car, but we also can't

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Speaker 2: say definitively it wasn't. And I think that's probably part

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Speaker 2: of the investigation. You know, there are so many twists

390
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Speaker 2: and turns that I might sound like I'm not giving

391
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Speaker 2: away as much as I could, but that's sort of

392
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Speaker 2: exactly what we're facing. That's just the reality of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned Helen there in her undying mission to find

394
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Speaker 1: her sister, and she has mentioned that by the time

395
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Speaker 1: a coronial inquest is done in twenty seve sixteen, I

396
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Speaker 1: believe that even then she's discovering information about her sister's

397
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Speaker 1: movements that she was not privy to. I mean, obviously,

398
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Speaker 1: when you went missing, as you mentioned, she was very young,

399
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Speaker 1: so not in a position to really search for her herself.

400
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Speaker 1: And then, you know, when you're a kid, you often

401
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: don't get told all the details of things by the

402
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Speaker 1: adults around you. So she's had to discover these things

403
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Speaker 1: as she's grown up. But it took a coronial inquest

404
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: for her to discover some things, some information about her

405
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Speaker 1: sister's disappearance or circumstances around it. How frustrating is it

406
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Speaker 1: for her dealing with this for her entire life and

407
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: constantly feeling like she can't get anywhere Because during your

408
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: podcast you quite often say we've reached out, we haven't

409
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Speaker 1: heard back, We've tried to speak to this person, they

410
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Speaker 1: haven't been contactable. Like it's such a frustrating process searching

411
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Speaker 1: for someone who's been missing for so long, and people

412
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Speaker 1: who might be worried that they'll get in trouble, or

413
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Speaker 1: police officers who don't want to discuss a case like

414
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Speaker 1: this must be the most frustrating thing for her.

415
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Speaker 2: The thing about Helen is she just keeps going, So

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Speaker 2: I think it's you know, yeah, she's hit a lot

417
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Speaker 2: of brick walls in her search, but it doesn't stop

418
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Speaker 2: her searching. And the frustration is that yes, some people

419
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Speaker 2: might not speak, but I think it's important to remember

420
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Speaker 2: that for a lot of people, even though forty five

421
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Speaker 2: years has passed, it's still so heartbreaking for them. If

422
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: you've sort of think about it, For a fourteen year old,

423
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Speaker 2: you're sort of just coming to learn about yourself. You're

424
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Speaker 2: finishing back then, you know, finishing high school. Life is

425
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: looking so bright, or life is looking however, it's looking

426
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Speaker 2: for that particular person and to have someone that you know,

427
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Speaker 2: that you've probably considered to be right next to you,

428
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Speaker 2: a confident just suddenly disappearing and not knowing you know.

429
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Speaker 2: In the podcast, one friend Angela says, how can two

430
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Speaker 2: girls just vanish? And I think that's what it really

431
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Speaker 2: feels like for Elaine's family, for her sisters, How did

432
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Speaker 2: this happen? It's almost like there's so many shaking your

433
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Speaker 2: head moments that it almost spurs them on to get

434
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: more answers. And Helen has managed to find out more

435
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: information over the years, just with sheer determination. It's been incredible.

436
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 2: She's such an incredible person. And I don't say that lightly.

437
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: I know, I you know, have a podcast about her sister,

438
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: but she's truly such an incredible person, the unwaving way

439
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: that she has gone about trying to find Elaine. You know,

440
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 2: she's got her own family, she's got a business. You know,

441
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: if new information comes in, right, let's go like that

442
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: is just her approach to it.

443
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: I think what I find even more heartbreaking is that

444
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: for a lot of people who have missing friends or

445
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: family members, there's always that tie rope that they're walking

446
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: between are they still alive or are they not? And

447
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: for Helen and her sister Wendy, they still don't really

448
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: have that, whether they have it official or not. They

449
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: aren't even in a position to kind of say, we

450
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: presume that Elaine is no longer with us, because there

451
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: have been sightings and leads that they have followed up

452
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: since her disappearance, and ones that they have actually gone

453
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: door knocking asking questions in neighborhoods around Newcastle, because there

454
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: was at one stage this idea that Elaine had maybe

455
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: changed her name to Crystal and maybe was working as

456
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: a sex worker potentially at one stage, have they ever

457
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: been able to definitively find out whether that was Elaine

458
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: or not.

459
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 2: It must be, you know, just sort of hearing this

460
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: the information come through, so Wendy had a friend over

461
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: one day to her house. And you know, this was

462
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: years and years after Elaine had had been reported missing,

463
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: and the family knew that, you know, she had essentially

464
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: officially you know, disappeared or was officially missing. And a

465
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: friend came over to Wendy's house and they were just

466
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 2: you know, in the lound room talking and this friend

467
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: turned and said, oh, I know her, you know, pointing

468
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: to a photo of Elaine that was framed in Wendy's

469
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: lounge room. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, that's Crystal.

470
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: And when you said, oh, no, you know, essentially you're mistaken.

471
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: That's my sister Elaine. What's quite you know, sort of

472
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: like really grabs you about this is the photo was

473
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: from the nineteen seventies. It's the only photo of the

474
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 2: family have of Elaine from from her school days. And

475
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: it's her school photo. So it's this beautiful photo of

476
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: a bright eyed fifteen, sixteen year old in her school uniform.

477
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: And this is what the friend had determined was, Oh,

478
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: I know her, it's Crystal. I can't say how this

479
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: particular friend sort of came to believe that Elaine is Crystal,

480
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: but it sent the family. Obviously the family know it

481
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: sent them to the Newcastle brothel district, and what they

482
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: wanted to do and why they went there is that

483
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: they wanted to find out the information that this friend

484
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: had given them if it was true, if there was

485
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: any truth to it. So they made a plan Wendy,

486
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: Helen and Helen's husband Joe, to one Saturday night hit

487
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: up the brothel district of Newcastle and just go daughter door.

488
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: Very sadly, the Johnson's family had lost a child when

489
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: he was twenty one. So Helen and Wendy went into

490
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: the brothels with the idea of that they're coming to

491
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: her that her brother had died. And so they went

492
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: in and they showed a photo of Elaine, the same

493
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: photo that the friend had identified as Crystal. And from

494
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: what Helene has told me, people within the brothel said, oh, yes, Elaine.

495
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: They used her name as Elaine and then referred to

496
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: her as Crystal. I should state they used the name

497
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: Elaine for this person. I just wanted to be clear

498
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: because there could well have been a person called Elaine,

499
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 2: you know what a coincidence, but just to just to

500
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: make that clear. And so with that information, they thought Okay,

501
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: well right, let's go to the next one, and a

502
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: similar thing had happened, and they were told that Crystal

503
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: was on a six week run. She wasn't currently there

504
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: and that was the information that they had. So Elaine's

505
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: family sort of left and thought, okay, well, maybe there's

506
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: something to the friend's comments. Nothing came of it, in

507
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: the sense no one came forward to say that they

508
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: were Elaine. Helen did get a phone call from someone

509
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: who said, Hello, I'm Crystal. I wish I could be

510
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: your sister, but I'm not. But there were details in

511
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: the phone call that Helen's told me that just doesn't

512
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: add up. She thinks it might have been a decoy

513
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: to use her words. But then later Helen did have

514
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: a woman come to her work and tell her keep looking.

515
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: So to your point, it's having these sort of sightings

516
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: and the information coming forward, it does make you think, well,

517
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: she is still alive. We have to keep going.

518
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: Helen and Wendy have also asked the New South Wales

519
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: government to put her reward up for information in regards

520
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: to both Elaine and Carrie's disappearance that's been denied. Has

521
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: there ever been an explanation as to why they won't

522
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: put forward or award for this case.

523
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: It's definitely something that has frustrated the family in terms

524
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: of not having an official reward being issued just that information,

525
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, the crystal information coming forward.

526
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: It makes so much sense that imagine if there was

527
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: a reward and someone came forward and the case was solved.

528
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that a benefit? Isn't that a benefit?

529
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: In terms of why the New South Wales Police have

530
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: denied the request for a reward, and there seems to

531
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: be a lot of sort of bureaucracy. It doesn't appear

532
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: to be an easy yes no situation. Obviously, it comes

533
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: across as very yes no when you're told no, we're

534
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: not going to provide the reward. But I think it

535
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: really has the family are really sort of questioning, we

536
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: don't understand why, you know, there seems to be so

537
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: many financial rewards for so many other cases. They haven't

538
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: been able to and I haven't been able to determine

539
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: fully why the reward keeps being refused.

540
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: How do you feel being a part of their story now?

541
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: And we've seen this happen quite a few times now

542
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: where people like you and I are having these discussions.

543
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Launch a podcast investigating somebody missing or a crime, and

544
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: there can be results from that. We've seen people go

545
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: to jail off the back of true crime podcasts. How

546
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: do you feel being a part of that story, and

547
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: is your hope at the end of this road that

548
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: you do give that family some closure? And he prepared

549
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: for the fact that they might not get.

550
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: It going into this podcast. I was pretty open about

551
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: the fact that I never expected or gave any assurances

552
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: that I would solve it. I suppose nothing against anyone

553
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: else who's put together a podcast of this nature. You know,

554
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: it's a very long process. And since releasing the episodes,

555
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: more people have come forward and we have new information,

556
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: very very credible and strong information, which is really great.

557
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I'm coming in as somebody

558
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: that doesn't have a personal connection to Elaine. I have

559
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: a personal connection to Helen and Wendy now because of

560
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: knowing them for you know, the last almost three years.

561
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: But it's really about them, you know, I'm really second

562
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: to this. I'm just in a very fortunate position to

563
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: be able to help get their story, much of it

564
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: very very untold out to more people. And that's What

565
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: they really want is people to come forward and to

566
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: hear you know. It's funny even the smallest bit of

567
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: information makes such a huge difference, So I guess you

568
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: know on behalf of Helen and Wendy. Please, if you

569
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: do know something, reach out, even anonymously. They just really

570
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: want to know what happened to their sister.

571
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: Thank you to Kate for helping us tell Elaine and

572
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Kerry's stories today. You can find Kate's podcast Out from

573
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: the Cold Searching for Elaine at the link in our

574
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: show notes. If you do have information that may assist

575
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: police to locate Elaine and Kerry, please call crime Stoppers

576
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: on one eight hundred triple three, triple zero, or get

577
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: in touch with us directly via email at true Crime

578
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: at mammamea dot com dot au. If you want to

579
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: see images from this story, head to our Instagram page

580
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: at True Crime Conversations. True Crime Conversations is hosted by

581
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Tali Blackman, The

582
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: group executive producer is a Laria Brophy, and there's been

583
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: audio design by Tina Madloff. Thanks so much for listening.

584
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

585
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: We want to hear from our true crime fans. Tell

586
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: us what kind of content you love, what you'd like

587
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: to hear more of, and a bit about your listening habits.

588
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: You'll final link to the show notes to take our

589
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: quick five minute survey, and you'll have the chance to

590
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: win a one thousand dollar gift card just for participating.

591
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

592
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on