WEBVTT - Australia's Worst Mass Family Killer & His Shocking Second Life 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.142 You're listening to a Mother MEA podcast. Mother MEA acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.662 the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was 0:00:19.702 --> 0:00:25.302 recorded on in November two thousand and two. At the 0:00:25.342 --> 0:00:29.422 age of seventy two, a man named Clifford Palmer died, 0:00:29.542 --> 0:00:33.702 a beloved husband of twenty two years and stepfather of seven, 0:00:34.902 --> 0:00:38.622 known as Poppy Cliff to his brood. His gravestone reads 0:00:38.822 --> 0:00:44.142 devoted to and sadly missed by children and grandchildren. By 0:00:44.182 --> 0:00:47.742 his family's account, he was a hard working, gentle and 0:00:47.822 --> 0:00:53.222 devout man, described as jovial, outdoorsy and adamant about keeping 0:00:53.262 --> 0:00:56.302 his kids on the right side of the law. What 0:00:56.382 --> 0:01:00.622 they didn't know is that he had a secret, a 0:01:00.702 --> 0:01:04.142 whole other life he lived before them, a whole other 0:01:04.262 --> 0:01:09.982 family who he murdered. His crimes were so sinister he 0:01:10.062 --> 0:01:12.422 was just ribed by the detective who arrested him as 0:01:12.462 --> 0:01:16.062 the most hateful man he ever knew, And yet he 0:01:16.102 --> 0:01:19.262 was allowed to start again, allowed to shed the title 0:01:19.262 --> 0:01:23.742 of Australia's worst family mass murderer to reinvent himself, a 0:01:23.782 --> 0:01:33.622 title he still holds to this day. I'm Jemma Bath 0:01:33.782 --> 0:01:37.262 and this is True Crime Conversations A Muma mea podcast 0:01:37.382 --> 0:01:41.022 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:01:41.022 --> 0:01:44.982 people who know the most about them. On September seventh, 0:01:45.062 --> 0:01:48.462 nineteen seventy one, at a remote farmhouse forty k's south 0:01:48.502 --> 0:01:54.422 of Adelaide, Clifford Bartholomew killed ten people. His wife, Heather, 0:01:55.022 --> 0:02:04.782 aged forty, his seven kids, Neville nineteen, Christine seventeen, Sharon fifteen, 0:02:05.662 --> 0:02:16.022 Helen thirteen, Gregory ten, Roger seven, and Sandra four. His 0:02:16.062 --> 0:02:19.942 sister in law Winness twenty six and her son Daniel 0:02:20.302 --> 0:02:24.582 nineteen months were also shot dead. So how was this killer, 0:02:25.102 --> 0:02:29.062 this mass murderer, able to reinvent his life and to 0:02:29.102 --> 0:02:32.702 have a second go at family across state lines? And 0:02:32.742 --> 0:02:36.862 why didn't we know about it before twenty eighteen? During 0:02:36.862 --> 0:02:40.782 this episode, we're going to hear two different voices. First, 0:02:41.062 --> 0:02:43.902 we'll be hearing from Craig Cook. He is the very 0:02:43.942 --> 0:02:48.382 reason we know about Clifford Bartholomew's second life. Craig's exclusive 0:02:48.422 --> 0:02:51.822 work as a journalist for the Adelaide Advertiser revealed the 0:02:51.862 --> 0:02:54.502 truth not just to the public, but also to the 0:02:54.542 --> 0:02:58.342 family Bartholomew had been helping raise for over two decades 0:02:58.982 --> 0:03:02.702 after he'd killed his own. Then we'll hear from former 0:03:02.742 --> 0:03:05.582 detective Alan Arthur, who was the first on the scene 0:03:05.622 --> 0:03:08.862 back in nineteen seventy one. We thought it was important 0:03:08.862 --> 0:03:11.182 to bring in someone who's not only familiar with the 0:03:11.222 --> 0:03:14.662 latest details of the case, but also someone who lived 0:03:14.702 --> 0:03:18.462 through it, faced Bartholomew and can explain how he was 0:03:18.502 --> 0:03:25.582 able to start over Craig. Why haven't we heard this 0:03:25.662 --> 0:03:28.662 story before? And I say we because I've never heard 0:03:28.702 --> 0:03:31.182 of it. My producer's never heard of it. I've asked 0:03:31.222 --> 0:03:33.662 around the editorial team. None of us have heard about 0:03:33.662 --> 0:03:36.142 this before. How has it flown so under the radar? 0:03:37.502 --> 0:03:40.182 Well, I'd never heard of it either. A great surprise 0:03:40.222 --> 0:03:42.342 to me. The reason I came across this story was 0:03:42.822 --> 0:03:45.542 editor of the Advertiser called John Whistler. I was as 0:03:45.542 --> 0:03:48.982 old as Moses, and he had heard of it. And 0:03:49.102 --> 0:03:52.382 he often dropped case studies on my desk and suggested 0:03:52.382 --> 0:03:54.142 that I might look through them and see if there 0:03:54.182 --> 0:03:57.062 was anything more defined. And one day he dropped these 0:03:57.462 --> 0:04:01.902 dusty papers and photographs of the Hope Valley murders and 0:04:01.982 --> 0:04:04.422 I just never heard of them. I asked around the 0:04:04.462 --> 0:04:06.702 office and people had never heard of it either. It 0:04:06.782 --> 0:04:09.742 was unbelievable. I couldn't believe a man who killed ten 0:04:09.782 --> 0:04:14.302 members of his family was given a death sentence and 0:04:14.662 --> 0:04:17.022 then was allowed out after eight years on parole, given 0:04:17.062 --> 0:04:20.222 a new identity and allowed to move into state. 0:04:20.822 --> 0:04:24.102 Take us back to the nineteen sixties early seventies. Who 0:04:24.182 --> 0:04:27.902 were the Bartholomew family and what did their life look 0:04:28.022 --> 0:04:29.822 like in Hope Forest, South Australia. 0:04:30.462 --> 0:04:33.422 Well, they were pool. They came from quite a rural 0:04:33.462 --> 0:04:35.502 area of South Australia down the south on the way 0:04:35.542 --> 0:04:39.342 to Victor Harbor for anybody who knows that region close 0:04:39.382 --> 0:04:41.902 to the wine and growing areas, but farmland back in 0:04:41.942 --> 0:04:45.262 those days. And mister Barthwallen in Clifford had a part 0:04:45.302 --> 0:04:48.142 time job as at the abatoar. Then they didn't have 0:04:48.222 --> 0:04:50.422 much money. I think they were renting the property from 0:04:50.622 --> 0:04:54.262 a farmer. It was only had four or five rooms 0:04:54.262 --> 0:04:57.222 if I re call Clifford and his wife and their 0:04:57.262 --> 0:05:00.622 seven children, so nine people in a small cottage. That's 0:05:00.662 --> 0:05:03.102 really all I know about them. Some people have interviewed 0:05:03.102 --> 0:05:04.582 since who kind of knew them at the time. So 0:05:04.622 --> 0:05:07.862 they were very quiet, said he was very quiet, never 0:05:08.622 --> 0:05:11.942 totally shocked bal he did on that day Father's Day 0:05:12.342 --> 0:05:13.422 in nineteen seventy one. 0:05:13.902 --> 0:05:17.462 Well, Hope Forest is a very isolated area, isn't it. 0:05:17.502 --> 0:05:18.982 There's not many people there. 0:05:19.022 --> 0:05:21.542 It's not a big community, no, very small. 0:05:21.542 --> 0:05:24.142 Everybody would know each other. But yeah, it's not a 0:05:24.142 --> 0:05:26.982 million miles from It's not up north in South Australia 0:05:26.982 --> 0:05:29.502 where you could be, you know, one hundred miles from anybody. Yeah, 0:05:30.022 --> 0:05:33.982 Thouven's not too far away. But yes, isolated for sure, 0:05:34.022 --> 0:05:36.502 and yeah, everybody would know. Every breath'd be one pub, 0:05:36.942 --> 0:05:38.862 everybody congregate there, that kind of thing. 0:05:39.862 --> 0:05:43.422 Do we know what state Clifford and Heather's marriage was 0:05:43.422 --> 0:05:46.582 in by late nineteen seventy one, just to help set 0:05:46.622 --> 0:05:47.542 the scene. 0:05:47.662 --> 0:05:49.942 Well, it wasn't in a good place. Basically, she'd asked 0:05:49.982 --> 0:05:53.622 him to leave. The story was that he suspected she 0:05:53.782 --> 0:05:56.582 was having an affair with a twenty two year old 0:05:56.702 --> 0:05:59.702 Vietnam Vet who would come to stay at their place 0:05:59.742 --> 0:06:03.382 and help them out, basically become a lodger at their 0:06:03.382 --> 0:06:07.582 house and was helping around the farm and doing different jobs, 0:06:07.742 --> 0:06:11.022 and Clifford suspected that his wife was having an affair 0:06:11.102 --> 0:06:14.702 with him. There's no evidence of it, in particular that 0:06:14.702 --> 0:06:16.982 there was any kind of sexual relationship. There was definitely 0:06:17.022 --> 0:06:20.062 a friendship if she went to Sydney with this person, 0:06:20.822 --> 0:06:25.302 but absolutely no evidence that there was any full blown affair. 0:06:26.262 --> 0:06:29.262 But he started be acting quite weirdly Clifford, and she 0:06:29.302 --> 0:06:32.222 asked him to leave. And on this day when the 0:06:32.302 --> 0:06:34.702 murders happened, it was Father's Den, and he was invited 0:06:34.742 --> 0:06:38.422 back because it was Father's Day. He left again that night, 0:06:38.462 --> 0:06:41.662 and then he returned in the night and committed his slaughter. 0:06:42.222 --> 0:06:44.782 So the suggestion is he may have been under pressure, 0:06:44.822 --> 0:06:47.262 and he may have been depressed, of course, and he 0:06:47.342 --> 0:06:51.502 was obviously fulfilled with rage and jealousy. That's still an 0:06:51.542 --> 0:06:52.862 extraordinary action to take. 0:06:53.422 --> 0:06:56.742 Doesn't really excuse hunting down and murdering. 0:06:56.542 --> 0:07:00.662 Ten people, No, and your loved ones too. 0:07:01.262 --> 0:07:05.702 So there were seven kids Heather yep. And then there 0:07:05.702 --> 0:07:08.022 were two other family members staying there that night that 0:07:08.062 --> 0:07:08.982 were also killed. 0:07:09.462 --> 0:07:12.902 Yep. Winness was have a sister and she had a 0:07:12.942 --> 0:07:16.302 young baby or eighteen month old child. They come down 0:07:16.422 --> 0:07:19.662 because it was Father's Day, I think. And then there 0:07:19.702 --> 0:07:21.902 was another child who'd come down to a couple of 0:07:21.942 --> 0:07:25.782 children of witnesses, including Noline who was an eight year 0:07:25.782 --> 0:07:29.742 old child, but her brother our older brother decided he'd 0:07:29.782 --> 0:07:32.262 take her back to Adelaide because he didn't like the 0:07:32.262 --> 0:07:34.422 atmosphere in the house. That was what he'd said. He 0:07:34.462 --> 0:07:36.822 felt like something bad was going to happen, and he 0:07:36.902 --> 0:07:39.622 was quite right. So that's the only reason that Noline 0:07:39.982 --> 0:07:44.182 survived was because her brother took her back to Adelaide 0:07:44.182 --> 0:07:45.982 and stayed with relatives. 0:07:46.542 --> 0:07:50.942 How did this shooting unfold? Did it start with Heather 0:07:51.142 --> 0:07:54.342 and then he just systematically went through rooms? Were they asleep? 0:07:54.462 --> 0:07:55.902 Were they awake? 0:07:56.742 --> 0:07:59.782 It was the middle of the night, and he went 0:07:59.782 --> 0:08:02.342 there with the intention of killing Heather. That's what he said. 0:08:02.382 --> 0:08:06.302 He made full statements as documented evidence of his state 0:08:06.302 --> 0:08:08.542 of mind and what he did in the order he 0:08:08.582 --> 0:08:13.462 did it. It's incredibly graphic and very disturbing. He got 0:08:13.462 --> 0:08:16.302 a maut from the garage and he intended to stand 0:08:16.342 --> 0:08:18.702 Heather and take her to the garage and shoot her 0:08:18.742 --> 0:08:21.582 there so that nobody woke up. Once he hit her 0:08:21.582 --> 0:08:23.902 with a marriage he woke up, all hell broke loose, 0:08:25.302 --> 0:08:29.622 and yeah, I just can't imagine the saying after that. 0:08:30.822 --> 0:08:34.942 There's some terrible, terrible imagery around it. All on some 0:08:35.302 --> 0:08:39.222 graphic details about his daughter begging him not to kill her. 0:08:39.742 --> 0:08:42.262 That was his eldest daughter, and he loved the best, 0:08:42.302 --> 0:08:45.622 he said in his statement, But he shot her. And 0:08:45.662 --> 0:08:50.142 then he did systematically go around the house, hitting people 0:08:50.142 --> 0:08:55.502 on the head with hammers and then shooting them. Unimaginable. 0:08:55.782 --> 0:08:57.822 I think some of the family members try to stop him. 0:08:58.382 --> 0:09:00.902 One of his sons definitely trying to stop him. There 0:09:00.942 --> 0:09:04.022 was fights, but they couldn't overpower him. 0:09:04.342 --> 0:09:07.742 Well, he was quite forthcoming in his police interviews, wasn't 0:09:07.742 --> 0:09:13.022 he about he's whine state of mind. Do you remember 0:09:13.142 --> 0:09:15.382 some of the things he said. You mentioned that he 0:09:15.422 --> 0:09:17.902 only meant to kill his wife, but I've seen it. 0:09:17.942 --> 0:09:21.622 Also said that he realized once he killed one of 0:09:21.702 --> 0:09:25.182 the children, he couldn't leave any of them alive in 0:09:25.342 --> 0:09:26.662 his mind. 0:09:27.062 --> 0:09:28.182 Because he loved them too much. 0:09:28.222 --> 0:09:31.022 That's what he said, because he loved them too much. 0:09:31.182 --> 0:09:34.662 Yeah, that was his statement about why he then had 0:09:34.662 --> 0:09:38.262 to systematically kill all the children. Most shocking to the 0:09:38.262 --> 0:09:41.822 police officer who investigated this case was the fact that 0:09:41.862 --> 0:09:44.862 he'd killed nine people. He went to the kitchen table, 0:09:44.982 --> 0:09:49.422 sat down, started drinking heavily, but after about thirty minutes, 0:09:49.422 --> 0:09:51.542 he realized the baby was still asleep in the cop 0:09:52.302 --> 0:09:54.422 and he went back, and he put a bullet in 0:09:54.462 --> 0:09:59.822 that baby's head that really really destroyed the police officer 0:09:59.862 --> 0:10:03.142 who investigated this. I just could not see the sense 0:10:03.142 --> 0:10:05.502 of that, and that's a that's why they call him 0:10:05.502 --> 0:10:08.462 a monster, and he is, in their mind, the worst 0:10:08.462 --> 0:10:09.742 person I've ever had to deal with. 0:10:10.462 --> 0:10:13.502 So that would have been nineteen month old Daniel. 0:10:13.502 --> 0:10:16.462 Correct his nephew, Yeah, who was asleep. 0:10:16.822 --> 0:10:19.742 The man that Clifford thought his wife was having an 0:10:19.742 --> 0:10:22.102 affair with. He was called mister X in the trial 0:10:22.662 --> 0:10:25.702 and you tracked him down. Could he tell you anything 0:10:25.742 --> 0:10:28.742 about that time or was there a reason you decided 0:10:28.782 --> 0:10:29.662 not to name. 0:10:29.582 --> 0:10:32.302 Him, not him any evidence you did have an affair, 0:10:32.342 --> 0:10:35.822 But that was his argument. I've got a couple of 0:10:35.822 --> 0:10:38.822 things to say about mister X actually, which we could include. 0:10:40.782 --> 0:10:44.782 So I found mister X, but I chose not to 0:10:44.782 --> 0:10:49.622 put him on the record. And the one thing that 0:10:49.742 --> 0:10:52.382 was of interest was there was a medical report that 0:10:52.502 --> 0:10:55.062 he'd been shot in the groin in Vietnam and he 0:10:55.062 --> 0:10:59.622 didn't have any function, so it wouldn't have been a 0:10:59.622 --> 0:11:03.102 sexual relationship. Even if he was having an affair with 0:11:03.142 --> 0:11:06.742 his wife, he didn't have the capacity to perform sexually. 0:11:06.822 --> 0:11:09.502 So I spoke to a third party. I knew his name, 0:11:09.822 --> 0:11:11.902 and I knew where he is, and I spoke to 0:11:11.942 --> 0:11:15.382 a relative of his, and I gave them several opportunities 0:11:15.422 --> 0:11:18.502 to talk to me, and in the end he chose 0:11:18.502 --> 0:11:22.182 not to, and I couldn't see any reason to pursue 0:11:22.222 --> 0:11:24.182 it any further. To be honest, I just didn't think 0:11:24.182 --> 0:11:26.542 he was going to add anymore. He was a twenty 0:11:26.542 --> 0:11:30.262 two year old kid, and he didn't know anything. I 0:11:30.262 --> 0:11:31.782 think he said at the time that he didn't have 0:11:31.822 --> 0:11:34.942 an affair with Heather. He said he was a friendship. 0:11:36.182 --> 0:11:40.302 And the night this happened, Clifford had been told by 0:11:40.342 --> 0:11:42.222 his wife. Heather told him that they were moving out 0:11:42.222 --> 0:11:44.822 of the farmhouse and they're going to move back into 0:11:44.822 --> 0:11:48.462 the city, basically into the Port Adelaide area, and that's 0:11:48.502 --> 0:11:50.742 where mister X was from. And this was something else 0:11:50.782 --> 0:11:53.982 that has said. By following you off, he believed that 0:11:54.062 --> 0:11:56.662 this mister X was now going to become the father 0:11:56.742 --> 0:12:00.262 to his children. This is what he strangely put together, 0:12:00.782 --> 0:12:03.022 that his family was leaving, not only leaving him, but 0:12:03.102 --> 0:12:06.702 leaving the area and going to set up house mister X. 0:12:07.542 --> 0:12:10.142 But you couldn't find proof that that was what was 0:12:10.182 --> 0:12:10.862 going to happen. 0:12:11.582 --> 0:12:14.622 No, no proof of all, but no nobody else confirmed it. 0:12:15.062 --> 0:12:18.382 But that's wouldn't have surprised that ad was trying to 0:12:18.422 --> 0:12:22.062 get out of the situation, her marriage already broken down. 0:12:23.542 --> 0:12:27.462 Some of the interesting horrific things in his police interviews 0:12:27.502 --> 0:12:29.742 that he did say was, you know, he tried to 0:12:29.782 --> 0:12:32.582 excuse it by saying he had five months of mental 0:12:32.622 --> 0:12:36.462 torture thinking that his wife was having this affair, and 0:12:36.502 --> 0:12:40.942 then when he was shooting his family, he couldn't control 0:12:41.022 --> 0:12:43.782 the screaming noises in his head and so he just 0:12:44.182 --> 0:12:48.702 kept going until it all went quiet. There's just something 0:12:48.782 --> 0:12:52.302 so chilling about hearing this man being able to articulate 0:12:53.302 --> 0:12:56.222 so clearly what he was doing. 0:12:56.062 --> 0:13:00.422 Was stall processes and what he so he's feeling the 0:13:00.422 --> 0:13:01.982 screaming and the only thing that's going to stop the 0:13:01.982 --> 0:13:06.742 scream is to keep killing people. Yeah, just very difficult 0:13:06.782 --> 0:13:09.262 to get inside of his mind. These were his loved ones. 0:13:09.302 --> 0:13:12.462 This is not strangers, He's not people attacking it. These 0:13:12.462 --> 0:13:14.862 are the greatest loves of his life. And it takes 0:13:14.902 --> 0:13:19.342 fifty minutes. It's a long time of killing and beating 0:13:19.822 --> 0:13:23.462 and going back and Yeah, at some stage you would 0:13:23.462 --> 0:13:27.262 think that something would say stop, that stop, enough is enough. 0:13:28.102 --> 0:13:29.782 But obviously he must have got it in his head 0:13:29.782 --> 0:13:32.822 that nobody could survive this because he loved them. 0:13:34.302 --> 0:13:38.022 But forty to fifty minutes suggests so much premeditation. You 0:13:38.102 --> 0:13:41.702 have to really be thinking as you as you're shooting 0:13:42.462 --> 0:13:44.142 to continue for that amount of time. 0:13:45.742 --> 0:13:49.102 Yeah, And he was having conversations with his children, especially 0:13:49.142 --> 0:13:53.022 at this time, his discussions and begging and pleading, and 0:13:53.382 --> 0:13:54.862 I think it was an instant with his summary. He 0:13:54.902 --> 0:13:56.942 hit his son over the head and he kind of 0:13:56.982 --> 0:13:58.862 became unconscious, and he went back to his bed, But 0:13:58.902 --> 0:14:01.942 then the sun woke up again and there was a fight, 0:14:02.062 --> 0:14:07.902 and then he ended up shooting his son after all 0:14:07.902 --> 0:14:11.062 of the sudden Yeah, I just can't get inside his 0:14:11.062 --> 0:14:13.182 head to imagine why you would keep going. I mean, 0:14:13.222 --> 0:14:16.222 what are you trying to achieve here? Obviously the obliteration 0:14:16.302 --> 0:14:20.382 of your family. Well, something that really annoyed the investigators 0:14:20.902 --> 0:14:23.542 is that they didn't have the courage to kill himself. 0:14:24.542 --> 0:14:27.382 You really think if he'd gone through all this horror 0:14:27.822 --> 0:14:30.782 to save his family from a horror, why wouldn't he 0:14:30.862 --> 0:14:34.342 kill himself. What a selfish individual that he would go 0:14:34.382 --> 0:14:36.782 back and shoot a baby, but he didn't have the 0:14:36.822 --> 0:14:40.422 guts to kill himself. That's why they're describing as the 0:14:40.462 --> 0:14:42.062 most horrendous man they'd ever met. 0:14:42.702 --> 0:14:45.942 How were the murders discovered? Was he arrested pretty quickly 0:14:45.982 --> 0:14:46.582 after all of this. 0:14:47.662 --> 0:14:50.062 He found his mother at four or five o'clock in 0:14:50.062 --> 0:14:52.782 the morning. He wasn't living too far away, and she 0:14:52.862 --> 0:14:56.062 said call the police, so he did. It was the 0:14:56.062 --> 0:14:59.222 Monday morning after Father's Day, pauling weather, the middle of winter, 0:15:00.022 --> 0:15:03.862 and yes, one police officer managed to find his way 0:15:03.862 --> 0:15:07.822 down there and found the scene about finding him was 0:15:07.822 --> 0:15:10.382 still there in the kitchen, and then obviously he report 0:15:10.422 --> 0:15:16.222 already in and quickly escalated to seenior police officers getting 0:15:16.222 --> 0:15:18.262 involved and heading down there. 0:15:21.062 --> 0:15:23.342 After the break. I asked Craig about what it was 0:15:23.422 --> 0:15:27.622 like interviewing Alan Arthur, the detective who arrested Clifford Buffolow. 0:15:27.702 --> 0:15:35.462 You and you've spoken to some of the officers that 0:15:35.862 --> 0:15:39.342 had to look at that scene and kind of investigate 0:15:39.382 --> 0:15:39.942 that scene. 0:15:41.022 --> 0:15:44.582 I spoke to both senior officers involved. There's footage, video 0:15:44.582 --> 0:15:49.142 footage of the day without sounding virturedly probably a good thing. 0:15:49.782 --> 0:15:52.462 And there they are looking like young men, shocked, young 0:15:52.502 --> 0:15:56.302 men I interviewed them as seventy five year old, and 0:15:56.342 --> 0:15:58.982 they're still shot by this case. It really has disturbed 0:15:59.022 --> 0:16:01.662 them and what they saw that Daves. They said, no 0:16:01.782 --> 0:16:04.662 issue have to witness something like that, and they just 0:16:04.702 --> 0:16:10.102 couldn't make sense of it. But yeah, I just really 0:16:10.462 --> 0:16:14.662 show them to the bar in that story. 0:16:15.622 --> 0:16:21.982 I can never forgive you. Never. It's unforgivable what he 0:16:22.102 --> 0:16:27.022 did when it came to children, A two year old 0:16:27.022 --> 0:16:30.102 baby and a cock puts the gun to its hidden kills. 0:16:30.302 --> 0:16:36.022 I mean, goodness, grace to me, it's not normal that 0:16:36.142 --> 0:16:40.182 it was for him. 0:16:40.462 --> 0:16:42.902 Do we know if it made headlines at the time. 0:16:42.982 --> 0:16:45.342 We're saying we don't. We haven't heard about it. Now 0:16:45.622 --> 0:16:48.262 at the time nineteen seventy one, do people know about it? 0:16:49.062 --> 0:16:52.982 I certainly made headlines. It was Australia's biggest mass killing. 0:16:53.142 --> 0:16:57.422 It's Liz Australia's biggest mass family killing. So yes, it 0:16:57.542 --> 0:17:01.462 made headlines around the country. Whyat then disappeared? I mean, 0:17:01.502 --> 0:17:04.742 Adelaide's down from a lot of murders and mysteries, this 0:17:04.782 --> 0:17:09.982 one kind of definitely disappeared from the public consciousness. I 0:17:10.022 --> 0:17:14.182 can't a friend who remembers it. It's yeah, definitely just 0:17:15.022 --> 0:17:17.542 I got lost. I think there must have been a 0:17:17.582 --> 0:17:20.662 lot of publicity around when he was released, So that's 0:17:20.702 --> 0:17:24.422 seventy eight, seventy nine, But after that the story disappears. 0:17:24.822 --> 0:17:27.862 He was sentenced to death by hanging, which was still 0:17:27.862 --> 0:17:32.102 a thing back then in December nineteen seventy one, but 0:17:32.142 --> 0:17:33.262 that didn't happen, did it. 0:17:34.622 --> 0:17:37.502 He was sentenced to death by Dame Roma Mitchell. How 0:17:37.542 --> 0:17:40.822 she became Dame Roma Mitchell, She was the judge, and yes, 0:17:40.942 --> 0:17:44.022 she's sentenced him to death by hanging. Everybody thought that 0:17:44.102 --> 0:17:47.822 was probably a just a just result. But even then 0:17:47.822 --> 0:17:51.182 they knew the Dunston government. If the Dunstan government came in, 0:17:51.502 --> 0:17:53.542 they were probably going to get rid of the death 0:17:53.542 --> 0:17:56.942 penalty and he probably would just serve life imprisonment. So 0:17:56.982 --> 0:17:58.902 that was already kind of known when he got a 0:17:58.942 --> 0:18:04.342 death sentence, but a life imprisonment probably, and if alons 0:18:04.382 --> 0:18:06.662 it meant life imprisonment, I think everybody could go with that. 0:18:07.262 --> 0:18:10.342 What became so shocking was after eight years he applied 0:18:10.342 --> 0:18:14.142 for parole and Dame Rome and Mitchell was head of 0:18:14.182 --> 0:18:16.702 the prole board who gave him parole after eight years 0:18:16.702 --> 0:18:17.102 in prison. 0:18:18.262 --> 0:18:22.822 Why why Craig do we know why we don't. 0:18:23.182 --> 0:18:26.262 We have a few insights. The file, apparently, is one 0:18:26.302 --> 0:18:29.662 sheet of paper, that is the file that allowed Clifford 0:18:29.662 --> 0:18:33.422 Barthoomy back into the community, a man who killed ten people, 0:18:33.702 --> 0:18:36.942 and the piece of paper basically implies that he had 0:18:36.982 --> 0:18:42.262 mental issues at the time, depression, and that the psychologist 0:18:42.382 --> 0:18:45.622 report suggested he would never do this ever again, which 0:18:45.622 --> 0:18:49.342 is quite leap it is, and he probably shouldn't have 0:18:49.342 --> 0:18:51.982 had the opportunity to do it ever again either, So 0:18:52.062 --> 0:18:54.022 that was the logic. And then the other thing that 0:18:54.102 --> 0:18:57.222 came through was that this was considered a domestic violence 0:18:57.342 --> 0:19:01.222 incident and therefore of a lesser. If he'd killed ten strangers, 0:19:01.582 --> 0:19:03.102 there's no way he would have been out of prison. 0:19:03.982 --> 0:19:06.822 But he killed his own family, and therefore some kind 0:19:06.862 --> 0:19:09.342 of logic suggests that he he's not a threat to 0:19:09.342 --> 0:19:09.982 anybody else. 0:19:10.142 --> 0:19:14.902 That is mind boggling totally, because even I mean, you 0:19:14.942 --> 0:19:16.862 try and wrap your head around the fact that, right, 0:19:16.902 --> 0:19:19.262 they think that this guy isn't going to do it again, 0:19:19.622 --> 0:19:22.622 so therefore will let him out. But it's also he 0:19:22.742 --> 0:19:25.142 wasn't punished for the crimes he did do. 0:19:25.982 --> 0:19:29.702 He was called a model prisoner, which I don't know 0:19:29.782 --> 0:19:31.422 what that means. But yeah, a model prisoner. So I 0:19:31.422 --> 0:19:32.622 didn't kill anybody in prison. 0:19:32.862 --> 0:19:37.342 He wasn't just released after eight years. He was kind 0:19:37.382 --> 0:19:38.942 of given a chance of a new life. He was 0:19:38.942 --> 0:19:41.542 given a new identity by the government, wasn't he. 0:19:42.222 --> 0:19:45.302 Eventually he wasn't given a new identity. Initially, he moved 0:19:45.302 --> 0:19:47.342 back into the community where he came from. He moved 0:19:47.382 --> 0:19:51.582 back into Port Adelaide where he'd originally come from, and 0:19:51.622 --> 0:19:53.822 there were threats against his life. Obviously, there was a 0:19:53.822 --> 0:19:56.782 lot of outrage about the fact that he was back 0:19:56.862 --> 0:20:00.422 in the community. And it was mainly because it took 0:20:00.462 --> 0:20:02.422 a few years, but mainly because of the threats against 0:20:02.462 --> 0:20:04.902 his life that the decision was made to give him 0:20:04.942 --> 0:20:09.022 a new identity and he chose to move into state. 0:20:09.102 --> 0:20:10.382 He went to Victoria. 0:20:10.542 --> 0:20:14.622 He went by Clifford Palmer, so he kept his first 0:20:14.702 --> 0:20:15.902 name his. 0:20:15.902 --> 0:20:18.702 First name, just changed the second name to Palmer, not Bartholomew. 0:20:19.142 --> 0:20:22.702 And who did he reinvent himself as that's. 0:20:22.542 --> 0:20:24.422 A very good question. I don't think we know a 0:20:24.502 --> 0:20:29.102 lot of details about. But definitely a Christian man. Because 0:20:29.702 --> 0:20:32.182 he met his next wife, I think it may have 0:20:32.222 --> 0:20:35.142 been a dancel, but he definitely claimed he was a 0:20:35.142 --> 0:20:37.702 man of God, and she was very religious. That was 0:20:37.742 --> 0:20:41.982 a very important factor for her, and probably you know, 0:20:42.262 --> 0:20:44.182 one of the main reasons they got together was the 0:20:44.182 --> 0:20:46.422 fact that he was he said he was a man 0:20:46.462 --> 0:20:49.702 of God. By this stage he was quite elderly. I 0:20:49.702 --> 0:20:51.422 can't remember what work he did after that. He had 0:20:51.422 --> 0:20:53.862 a few jobs before they moved to Queensland. 0:20:55.182 --> 0:20:59.422 So he married Merle. He had a second marriage and 0:20:59.462 --> 0:21:00.782 a second family. 0:21:00.502 --> 0:21:05.542 Melgray mel Gray born in Sri Lanka, immigrant to Australia, 0:21:05.542 --> 0:21:06.622 who had seven children. 0:21:06.942 --> 0:21:07.062 Row. 0:21:08.222 --> 0:21:11.262 It's kind of eerie, isn't it? Seven children and again. 0:21:11.982 --> 0:21:15.502 Seven Jordren again. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to the stage 0:21:15.502 --> 0:21:19.542 where I found his grapes down and it was absolutely 0:21:19.542 --> 0:21:21.702 mind blown by what it says on the stage on 0:21:21.862 --> 0:21:22.942 the grapes down. 0:21:23.342 --> 0:21:26.342 Do we know if mel was aware of what. 0:21:26.502 --> 0:21:30.662 He'd done, the suggestion from the family. I later obviously 0:21:30.702 --> 0:21:33.542 had to talk to the family eventually, and I'm pretty 0:21:33.542 --> 0:21:35.862 sure he had said that he killed his wife. I 0:21:35.862 --> 0:21:37.822 think he declared that, but it was supposed to be 0:21:37.862 --> 0:21:40.622 a jealous rage, and the fact that he came out 0:21:40.622 --> 0:21:43.702 after eight years suggested that it was nothing. It was 0:21:43.742 --> 0:21:47.262 a fit of anger against one person, and that it 0:21:47.342 --> 0:21:50.742 was basically a man slaughter charge so easily justified. He 0:21:50.782 --> 0:21:53.662 had his release papers, which was still in his possession, 0:21:54.582 --> 0:21:57.262 and if he turned those, then maybe he had admitted 0:21:57.302 --> 0:21:59.262 the family. Winder family seemed to know that he had 0:21:59.342 --> 0:22:03.302 killed his wife on some stage, but it was, yeah, 0:22:03.422 --> 0:22:06.822 some misunderstanding or didn't mean to kill her. And he 0:22:06.862 --> 0:22:08.822 only served eight years, so therefore it kind of been 0:22:08.862 --> 0:22:09.782 that serious. 0:22:10.662 --> 0:22:13.542 And what kind of stepfather was he? 0:22:15.062 --> 0:22:17.102 They could not have been more glowing in their praise 0:22:17.502 --> 0:22:20.582 for him as a stepfather. So seven children and then 0:22:20.622 --> 0:22:25.022 all the marriages of those children, and then all those grandchildren. 0:22:25.302 --> 0:22:29.022 Can't remember how many there are, There's a lot. And 0:22:29.102 --> 0:22:30.982 they said nobody could have a bad word for him. 0:22:32.382 --> 0:22:37.142 The whole family enjoyed his company and never saw him 0:22:37.582 --> 0:22:40.662 raise a fist or be even angry in any situation. 0:22:40.902 --> 0:22:43.822 That's what they told me. And obviously when they knew 0:22:43.822 --> 0:22:46.182