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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother MEA podcast. Mother MEA acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on in November two thousand and two. At the

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Speaker 1: age of seventy two, a man named Clifford Palmer died,

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Speaker 1: a beloved husband of twenty two years and stepfather of seven,

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Speaker 1: known as Poppy Cliff to his brood. His gravestone reads

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Speaker 1: devoted to and sadly missed by children and grandchildren. By

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Speaker 1: his family's account, he was a hard working, gentle and

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Speaker 1: devout man, described as jovial, outdoorsy and adamant about keeping

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Speaker 1: his kids on the right side of the law. What

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Speaker 1: they didn't know is that he had a secret, a

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Speaker 1: whole other life he lived before them, a whole other

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Speaker 1: family who he murdered. His crimes were so sinister he

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Speaker 1: was just ribed by the detective who arrested him as

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Speaker 1: the most hateful man he ever knew, And yet he

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Speaker 1: was allowed to start again, allowed to shed the title

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Speaker 1: of Australia's worst family mass murderer to reinvent himself, a

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Speaker 1: title he still holds to this day. I'm Jemma Bath

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Speaker 1: and this is True Crime Conversations A Muma mea podcast

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Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the

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Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. On September seventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, at a remote farmhouse forty k's south

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Speaker 1: of Adelaide, Clifford Bartholomew killed ten people. His wife, Heather,

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Speaker 1: aged forty, his seven kids, Neville nineteen, Christine seventeen, Sharon fifteen,

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Speaker 1: Helen thirteen, Gregory ten, Roger seven, and Sandra four. His

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Speaker 1: sister in law Winness twenty six and her son Daniel

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Speaker 1: nineteen months were also shot dead. So how was this killer,

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Speaker 1: this mass murderer, able to reinvent his life and to

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Speaker 1: have a second go at family across state lines? And

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Speaker 1: why didn't we know about it before twenty eighteen? During

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to hear two different voices. First,

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Speaker 1: we'll be hearing from Craig Cook. He is the very

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Speaker 1: reason we know about Clifford Bartholomew's second life. Craig's exclusive

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Speaker 1: work as a journalist for the Adelaide Advertiser revealed the

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Speaker 1: truth not just to the public, but also to the

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Speaker 1: family Bartholomew had been helping raise for over two decades

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Speaker 1: after he'd killed his own. Then we'll hear from former

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Speaker 1: detective Alan Arthur, who was the first on the scene

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy one. We thought it was important

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Speaker 1: to bring in someone who's not only familiar with the

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Speaker 1: latest details of the case, but also someone who lived

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Speaker 1: through it, faced Bartholomew and can explain how he was

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Speaker 1: able to start over Craig. Why haven't we heard this

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Speaker 1: story before? And I say we because I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of it. My producer's never heard of it. I've asked

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Speaker 1: around the editorial team. None of us have heard about

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Speaker 1: this before. How has it flown so under the radar?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd never heard of it either. A great surprise

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Speaker 2: to me. The reason I came across this story was

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Speaker 2: editor of the Advertiser called John Whistler. I was as

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Speaker 2: old as Moses, and he had heard of it. And

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Speaker 2: he often dropped case studies on my desk and suggested

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Speaker 2: that I might look through them and see if there

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Speaker 2: was anything more defined. And one day he dropped these

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Speaker 2: dusty papers and photographs of the Hope Valley murders and

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Speaker 2: I just never heard of them. I asked around the

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Speaker 2: office and people had never heard of it either. It

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Speaker 2: was unbelievable. I couldn't believe a man who killed ten

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Speaker 2: members of his family was given a death sentence and

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Speaker 2: then was allowed out after eight years on parole, given

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Speaker 2: a new identity and allowed to move into state.

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Speaker 1: Take us back to the nineteen sixties early seventies. Who

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Speaker 1: were the Bartholomew family and what did their life look

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Speaker 1: like in Hope Forest, South Australia.

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Speaker 2: Well, they were pool. They came from quite a rural

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Speaker 2: area of South Australia down the south on the way

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Speaker 2: to Victor Harbor for anybody who knows that region close

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Speaker 2: to the wine and growing areas, but farmland back in

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Speaker 2: those days. And mister Barthwallen in Clifford had a part

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Speaker 2: time job as at the abatoar. Then they didn't have

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Speaker 2: much money. I think they were renting the property from

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Speaker 2: a farmer. It was only had four or five rooms

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Speaker 2: if I re call Clifford and his wife and their

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Speaker 2: seven children, so nine people in a small cottage. That's

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Speaker 2: really all I know about them. Some people have interviewed

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Speaker 2: since who kind of knew them at the time. So

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Speaker 2: they were very quiet, said he was very quiet, never

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Speaker 2: totally shocked bal he did on that day Father's Day

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: Well, Hope Forest is a very isolated area, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: There's not many people there.

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Speaker 3: It's not a big community, no, very small.

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Speaker 2: Everybody would know each other. But yeah, it's not a

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Speaker 2: million miles from It's not up north in South Australia

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Speaker 2: where you could be, you know, one hundred miles from anybody. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Thouven's not too far away. But yes, isolated for sure,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, everybody would know. Every breath'd be one pub,

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Speaker 2: everybody congregate there, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Do we know what state Clifford and Heather's marriage was

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Speaker 1: in by late nineteen seventy one, just to help set

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Speaker 1: the scene.

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Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't in a good place. Basically, she'd asked

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Speaker 2: him to leave. The story was that he suspected she

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Speaker 2: was having an affair with a twenty two year old

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Speaker 2: Vietnam Vet who would come to stay at their place

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Speaker 2: and help them out, basically become a lodger at their

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Speaker 2: house and was helping around the farm and doing different jobs,

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Speaker 2: and Clifford suspected that his wife was having an affair

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Speaker 2: with him. There's no evidence of it, in particular that

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Speaker 2: there was any kind of sexual relationship. There was definitely

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Speaker 2: a friendship if she went to Sydney with this person,

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Speaker 2: but absolutely no evidence that there was any full blown affair.

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Speaker 2: But he started be acting quite weirdly Clifford, and she

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Speaker 2: asked him to leave. And on this day when the

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Speaker 2: murders happened, it was Father's Den, and he was invited

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Speaker 2: back because it was Father's Day. He left again that night,

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Speaker 2: and then he returned in the night and committed his slaughter.

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Speaker 2: So the suggestion is he may have been under pressure,

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Speaker 2: and he may have been depressed, of course, and he

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Speaker 2: was obviously fulfilled with rage and jealousy. That's still an

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Speaker 2: extraordinary action to take.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't really excuse hunting down and murdering.

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Speaker 3: Ten people, No, and your loved ones too.

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Speaker 1: So there were seven kids Heather yep. And then there

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Speaker 1: were two other family members staying there that night that

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Speaker 1: were also killed.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Winness was have a sister and she had a

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Speaker 2: young baby or eighteen month old child. They come down

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Speaker 2: because it was Father's Day, I think. And then there

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Speaker 2: was another child who'd come down to a couple of

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Speaker 2: children of witnesses, including Noline who was an eight year

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Speaker 2: old child, but her brother our older brother decided he'd

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Speaker 2: take her back to Adelaide because he didn't like the

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Speaker 2: atmosphere in the house. That was what he'd said. He

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Speaker 2: felt like something bad was going to happen, and he

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Speaker 2: was quite right. So that's the only reason that Noline

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Speaker 2: survived was because her brother took her back to Adelaide

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Speaker 2: and stayed with relatives.

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Speaker 1: How did this shooting unfold? Did it start with Heather

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Speaker 1: and then he just systematically went through rooms? Were they asleep?

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Speaker 1: Were they awake?

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Speaker 2: It was the middle of the night, and he went

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Speaker 2: there with the intention of killing Heather. That's what he said.

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Speaker 2: He made full statements as documented evidence of his state

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Speaker 2: of mind and what he did in the order he

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Speaker 2: did it. It's incredibly graphic and very disturbing. He got

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Speaker 2: a maut from the garage and he intended to stand

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Speaker 2: Heather and take her to the garage and shoot her

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Speaker 2: there so that nobody woke up. Once he hit her

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Speaker 2: with a marriage he woke up, all hell broke loose,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, I just can't imagine the saying after that.

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Speaker 2: There's some terrible, terrible imagery around it. All on some

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Speaker 2: graphic details about his daughter begging him not to kill her.

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Speaker 2: That was his eldest daughter, and he loved the best,

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Speaker 2: he said in his statement, But he shot her. And

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Speaker 2: then he did systematically go around the house, hitting people

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Speaker 2: on the head with hammers and then shooting them. Unimaginable.

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Speaker 2: I think some of the family members try to stop him.

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Speaker 2: One of his sons definitely trying to stop him. There

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Speaker 2: was fights, but they couldn't overpower him.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was quite forthcoming in his police interviews, wasn't

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Speaker 1: he about he's whine state of mind. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: some of the things he said. You mentioned that he

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Speaker 1: only meant to kill his wife, but I've seen it.

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Speaker 1: Also said that he realized once he killed one of

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Speaker 1: the children, he couldn't leave any of them alive in

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Speaker 1: his mind.

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Speaker 2: Because he loved them too much.

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Speaker 3: That's what he said, because he loved them too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was his statement about why he then had

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Speaker 2: to systematically kill all the children. Most shocking to the

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Speaker 2: police officer who investigated this case was the fact that

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Speaker 2: he'd killed nine people. He went to the kitchen table,

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Speaker 2: sat down, started drinking heavily, but after about thirty minutes,

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Speaker 2: he realized the baby was still asleep in the cop

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Speaker 2: and he went back, and he put a bullet in

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Speaker 2: that baby's head that really really destroyed the police officer

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Speaker 2: who investigated this. I just could not see the sense

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Speaker 2: of that, and that's a that's why they call him

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Speaker 2: a monster, and he is, in their mind, the worst

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Speaker 2: person I've ever had to deal with.

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Speaker 1: So that would have been nineteen month old Daniel.

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Speaker 3: Correct his nephew, Yeah, who was asleep.

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Speaker 1: The man that Clifford thought his wife was having an

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Speaker 1: affair with. He was called mister X in the trial

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Speaker 1: and you tracked him down. Could he tell you anything

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Speaker 1: about that time or was there a reason you decided

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Speaker 1: not to name.

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Speaker 2: Him, not him any evidence you did have an affair,

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Speaker 2: But that was his argument. I've got a couple of

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Speaker 2: things to say about mister X actually, which we could include.

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Speaker 2: So I found mister X, but I chose not to

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Speaker 2: put him on the record. And the one thing that

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Speaker 2: was of interest was there was a medical report that

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Speaker 2: he'd been shot in the groin in Vietnam and he

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Speaker 2: didn't have any function, so it wouldn't have been a

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Speaker 2: sexual relationship. Even if he was having an affair with

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Speaker 2: his wife, he didn't have the capacity to perform sexually.

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Speaker 2: So I spoke to a third party. I knew his name,

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Speaker 2: and I knew where he is, and I spoke to

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Speaker 2: a relative of his, and I gave them several opportunities

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Speaker 2: to talk to me, and in the end he chose

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Speaker 2: not to, and I couldn't see any reason to pursue

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Speaker 2: it any further. To be honest, I just didn't think

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Speaker 2: he was going to add anymore. He was a twenty

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Speaker 2: two year old kid, and he didn't know anything. I

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Speaker 2: think he said at the time that he didn't have

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Speaker 2: an affair with Heather. He said he was a friendship.

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Speaker 2: And the night this happened, Clifford had been told by

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Speaker 2: his wife. Heather told him that they were moving out

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Speaker 2: of the farmhouse and they're going to move back into

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Speaker 2: the city, basically into the Port Adelaide area, and that's

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Speaker 2: where mister X was from. And this was something else

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Speaker 2: that has said. By following you off, he believed that

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Speaker 2: this mister X was now going to become the father

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Speaker 2: to his children. This is what he strangely put together,

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Speaker 2: that his family was leaving, not only leaving him, but

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Speaker 2: leaving the area and going to set up house mister X.

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Speaker 1: But you couldn't find proof that that was what was

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Speaker 1: going to happen.

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Speaker 2: No, no proof of all, but no nobody else confirmed it.

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Speaker 2: But that's wouldn't have surprised that ad was trying to

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Speaker 2: get out of the situation, her marriage already broken down.

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Speaker 1: Some of the interesting horrific things in his police interviews

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Speaker 1: that he did say was, you know, he tried to

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Speaker 1: excuse it by saying he had five months of mental

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Speaker 1: torture thinking that his wife was having this affair, and

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Speaker 1: then when he was shooting his family, he couldn't control

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Speaker 1: the screaming noises in his head and so he just

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Speaker 1: kept going until it all went quiet. There's just something

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Speaker 1: so chilling about hearing this man being able to articulate

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Speaker 1: so clearly what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Was stall processes and what he so he's feeling the

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Speaker 2: screaming and the only thing that's going to stop the

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Speaker 2: scream is to keep killing people. Yeah, just very difficult

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Speaker 2: to get inside of his mind. These were his loved ones.

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Speaker 2: This is not strangers, He's not people attacking it. These

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Speaker 2: are the greatest loves of his life. And it takes

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Speaker 2: fifty minutes. It's a long time of killing and beating

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Speaker 2: and going back and Yeah, at some stage you would

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Speaker 2: think that something would say stop, that stop, enough is enough.

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Speaker 2: But obviously he must have got it in his head

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Speaker 2: that nobody could survive this because he loved them.

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Speaker 1: But forty to fifty minutes suggests so much premeditation. You

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Speaker 1: have to really be thinking as you as you're shooting

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Speaker 1: to continue for that amount of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And he was having conversations with his children, especially

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Speaker 2: at this time, his discussions and begging and pleading, and

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Speaker 2: I think it was an instant with his summary. He

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Speaker 2: hit his son over the head and he kind of

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Speaker 2: became unconscious, and he went back to his bed, But

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Speaker 2: then the sun woke up again and there was a fight,

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Speaker 2: and then he ended up shooting his son after all

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Speaker 2: of the sudden Yeah, I just can't get inside his

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Speaker 2: head to imagine why you would keep going. I mean,

246
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Speaker 2: what are you trying to achieve here? Obviously the obliteration

247
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Speaker 2: of your family. Well, something that really annoyed the investigators

248
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Speaker 2: is that they didn't have the courage to kill himself.

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Speaker 2: You really think if he'd gone through all this horror

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Speaker 2: to save his family from a horror, why wouldn't he

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Speaker 2: kill himself. What a selfish individual that he would go

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Speaker 2: back and shoot a baby, but he didn't have the

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Speaker 2: guts to kill himself. That's why they're describing as the

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Speaker 2: most horrendous man they'd ever met.

255
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Speaker 1: How were the murders discovered? Was he arrested pretty quickly

256
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Speaker 1: after all of this.

257
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Speaker 2: He found his mother at four or five o'clock in

258
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Speaker 2: the morning. He wasn't living too far away, and she

259
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Speaker 2: said call the police, so he did. It was the

260
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Speaker 2: Monday morning after Father's Day, pauling weather, the middle of winter,

261
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Speaker 2: and yes, one police officer managed to find his way

262
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Speaker 2: down there and found the scene about finding him was

263
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Speaker 2: still there in the kitchen, and then obviously he report

264
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Speaker 2: already in and quickly escalated to seenior police officers getting

265
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Speaker 2: involved and heading down there.

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Speaker 1: After the break. I asked Craig about what it was

267
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Speaker 1: like interviewing Alan Arthur, the detective who arrested Clifford Buffolow.

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Speaker 1: You and you've spoken to some of the officers that

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Speaker 1: had to look at that scene and kind of investigate

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Speaker 1: that scene.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to both senior officers involved. There's footage, video

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Speaker 2: footage of the day without sounding virturedly probably a good thing.

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Speaker 2: And there they are looking like young men, shocked, young

274
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Speaker 2: men I interviewed them as seventy five year old, and

275
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Speaker 2: they're still shot by this case. It really has disturbed

276
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Speaker 2: them and what they saw that Daves. They said, no

277
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Speaker 2: issue have to witness something like that, and they just

278
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Speaker 2: couldn't make sense of it. But yeah, I just really

279
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Speaker 2: show them to the bar in that story.

280
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Speaker 4: I can never forgive you. Never. It's unforgivable what he

281
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Speaker 4: did when it came to children, A two year old

282
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Speaker 4: baby and a cock puts the gun to its hidden kills.

283
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Speaker 4: I mean, goodness, grace to me, it's not normal that

284
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Speaker 4: it was for him.

285
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Speaker 1: Do we know if it made headlines at the time.

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Speaker 1: We're saying we don't. We haven't heard about it. Now

287
00:16:45,622 --> 00:16:48,262
Speaker 1: at the time nineteen seventy one, do people know about it?

288
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Speaker 2: I certainly made headlines. It was Australia's biggest mass killing.

289
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Speaker 2: It's Liz Australia's biggest mass family killing. So yes, it

290
00:16:57,542 --> 00:17:01,462
Speaker 2: made headlines around the country. Whyat then disappeared? I mean,

291
00:17:01,502 --> 00:17:04,742
Speaker 2: Adelaide's down from a lot of murders and mysteries, this

292
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Speaker 2: one kind of definitely disappeared from the public consciousness. I

293
00:17:10,022 --> 00:17:14,182
Speaker 2: can't a friend who remembers it. It's yeah, definitely just

294
00:17:15,022 --> 00:17:17,542
Speaker 2: I got lost. I think there must have been a

295
00:17:17,582 --> 00:17:20,662
Speaker 2: lot of publicity around when he was released, So that's

296
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Speaker 2: seventy eight, seventy nine, But after that the story disappears.

297
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Speaker 1: He was sentenced to death by hanging, which was still

298
00:17:27,862 --> 00:17:32,102
Speaker 1: a thing back then in December nineteen seventy one, but

299
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Speaker 1: that didn't happen, did it.

300
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Speaker 2: He was sentenced to death by Dame Roma Mitchell. How

301
00:17:37,542 --> 00:17:40,822
Speaker 2: she became Dame Roma Mitchell, She was the judge, and yes,

302
00:17:40,942 --> 00:17:44,022
Speaker 2: she's sentenced him to death by hanging. Everybody thought that

303
00:17:44,102 --> 00:17:47,822
Speaker 2: was probably a just a just result. But even then

304
00:17:47,822 --> 00:17:51,182
Speaker 2: they knew the Dunston government. If the Dunstan government came in,

305
00:17:51,502 --> 00:17:53,542
Speaker 2: they were probably going to get rid of the death

306
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Speaker 2: penalty and he probably would just serve life imprisonment. So

307
00:17:56,982 --> 00:17:58,902
Speaker 2: that was already kind of known when he got a

308
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Speaker 2: death sentence, but a life imprisonment probably, and if alons

309
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Speaker 2: it meant life imprisonment, I think everybody could go with that.

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Speaker 2: What became so shocking was after eight years he applied

311
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Speaker 2: for parole and Dame Rome and Mitchell was head of

312
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Speaker 2: the prole board who gave him parole after eight years

313
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Speaker 2: in prison.

314
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Speaker 1: Why why Craig do we know why we don't.

315
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Speaker 2: We have a few insights. The file, apparently, is one

316
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Speaker 2: sheet of paper, that is the file that allowed Clifford

317
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Speaker 2: Barthoomy back into the community, a man who killed ten people,

318
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Speaker 2: and the piece of paper basically implies that he had

319
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Speaker 2: mental issues at the time, depression, and that the psychologist

320
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Speaker 2: report suggested he would never do this ever again, which

321
00:18:45,622 --> 00:18:49,342
Speaker 2: is quite leap it is, and he probably shouldn't have

322
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Speaker 2: had the opportunity to do it ever again either, So

323
00:18:52,062 --> 00:18:54,022
Speaker 2: that was the logic. And then the other thing that

324
00:18:54,102 --> 00:18:57,222
Speaker 2: came through was that this was considered a domestic violence

325
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Speaker 2: incident and therefore of a lesser. If he'd killed ten strangers,

326
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Speaker 2: there's no way he would have been out of prison.

327
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Speaker 2: But he killed his own family, and therefore some kind

328
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Speaker 2: of logic suggests that he he's not a threat to

329
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Speaker 2: anybody else.

330
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Speaker 1: That is mind boggling totally, because even I mean, you

331
00:19:14,942 --> 00:19:16,862
Speaker 1: try and wrap your head around the fact that, right,

332
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Speaker 1: they think that this guy isn't going to do it again,

333
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Speaker 1: so therefore will let him out. But it's also he

334
00:19:22,742 --> 00:19:25,142
Speaker 1: wasn't punished for the crimes he did do.

335
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Speaker 2: He was called a model prisoner, which I don't know

336
00:19:29,782 --> 00:19:31,422
Speaker 2: what that means. But yeah, a model prisoner. So I

337
00:19:31,422 --> 00:19:32,622
Speaker 2: didn't kill anybody in prison.

338
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Speaker 1: He wasn't just released after eight years. He was kind

339
00:19:37,382 --> 00:19:38,942
Speaker 1: of given a chance of a new life. He was

340
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Speaker 1: given a new identity by the government, wasn't he.

341
00:19:42,222 --> 00:19:45,302
Speaker 2: Eventually he wasn't given a new identity. Initially, he moved

342
00:19:45,302 --> 00:19:47,342
Speaker 2: back into the community where he came from. He moved

343
00:19:47,382 --> 00:19:51,582
Speaker 2: back into Port Adelaide where he'd originally come from, and

344
00:19:51,622 --> 00:19:53,822
Speaker 2: there were threats against his life. Obviously, there was a

345
00:19:53,822 --> 00:19:56,782
Speaker 2: lot of outrage about the fact that he was back

346
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Speaker 2: in the community. And it was mainly because it took

347
00:20:00,462 --> 00:20:02,422
Speaker 2: a few years, but mainly because of the threats against

348
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Speaker 2: his life that the decision was made to give him

349
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Speaker 2: a new identity and he chose to move into state.

350
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Speaker 2: He went to Victoria.

351
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Speaker 1: He went by Clifford Palmer, so he kept his first

352
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Speaker 1: name his.

353
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Speaker 2: First name, just changed the second name to Palmer, not Bartholomew.

354
00:20:19,142 --> 00:20:22,702
Speaker 1: And who did he reinvent himself as that's.

355
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Speaker 2: A very good question. I don't think we know a

356
00:20:24,502 --> 00:20:29,102
Speaker 2: lot of details about. But definitely a Christian man. Because

357
00:20:29,702 --> 00:20:32,182
Speaker 2: he met his next wife, I think it may have

358
00:20:32,222 --> 00:20:35,142
Speaker 2: been a dancel, but he definitely claimed he was a

359
00:20:35,142 --> 00:20:37,702
Speaker 2: man of God, and she was very religious. That was

360
00:20:37,742 --> 00:20:41,982
Speaker 2: a very important factor for her, and probably you know,

361
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Speaker 2: one of the main reasons they got together was the

362
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Speaker 2: fact that he was he said he was a man

363
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Speaker 2: of God. By this stage he was quite elderly. I

364
00:20:49,702 --> 00:20:51,422
Speaker 2: can't remember what work he did after that. He had

365
00:20:51,422 --> 00:20:53,862
Speaker 2: a few jobs before they moved to Queensland.

366
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Speaker 1: So he married Merle. He had a second marriage and

367
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Speaker 1: a second family.

368
00:21:00,502 --> 00:21:05,542
Speaker 2: Melgray mel Gray born in Sri Lanka, immigrant to Australia,

369
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Speaker 2: who had seven children.

370
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Speaker 4: Row.

371
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Speaker 1: It's kind of eerie, isn't it? Seven children and again.

372
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Speaker 2: Seven Jordren again. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to the stage

373
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Speaker 2: where I found his grapes down and it was absolutely

374
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Speaker 2: mind blown by what it says on the stage on

375
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Speaker 2: the grapes down.

376
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Speaker 1: Do we know if mel was aware of what.

377
00:21:26,502 --> 00:21:30,662
Speaker 2: He'd done, the suggestion from the family. I later obviously

378
00:21:30,702 --> 00:21:33,542
Speaker 2: had to talk to the family eventually, and I'm pretty

379
00:21:33,542 --> 00:21:35,862
Speaker 2: sure he had said that he killed his wife. I

380
00:21:35,862 --> 00:21:37,822
Speaker 2: think he declared that, but it was supposed to be

381
00:21:37,862 --> 00:21:40,622
Speaker 2: a jealous rage, and the fact that he came out

382
00:21:40,622 --> 00:21:43,702
Speaker 2: after eight years suggested that it was nothing. It was

383
00:21:43,742 --> 00:21:47,262
Speaker 2: a fit of anger against one person, and that it

384
00:21:47,342 --> 00:21:50,742
Speaker 2: was basically a man slaughter charge so easily justified. He

385
00:21:50,782 --> 00:21:53,662
Speaker 2: had his release papers, which was still in his possession,

386
00:21:54,582 --> 00:21:57,262
Speaker 2: and if he turned those, then maybe he had admitted

387
00:21:57,302 --> 00:21:59,262
Speaker 2: the family. Winder family seemed to know that he had

388
00:21:59,342 --> 00:22:03,302
Speaker 2: killed his wife on some stage, but it was, yeah,

389
00:22:03,422 --> 00:22:06,822
Speaker 2: some misunderstanding or didn't mean to kill her. And he

390
00:22:06,862 --> 00:22:08,822
Speaker 2: only served eight years, so therefore it kind of been

391
00:22:08,862 --> 00:22:09,782
Speaker 2: that serious.

392
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Speaker 1: And what kind of stepfather was he?

393
00:22:15,062 --> 00:22:17,102
Speaker 2: They could not have been more glowing in their praise

394
00:22:17,502 --> 00:22:20,582
Speaker 2: for him as a stepfather. So seven children and then

395
00:22:20,622 --> 00:22:25,022
Speaker 2: all the marriages of those children, and then all those grandchildren.

396
00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:29,022
Speaker 2: Can't remember how many there are, There's a lot. And

397
00:22:29,102 --> 00:22:30,982
Speaker 2: they said nobody could have a bad word for him.

398
00:22:32,382 --> 00:22:37,142
Speaker 2: The whole family enjoyed his company and never saw him

399
00:22:37,582 --> 00:22:40,662
Speaker 2: raise a fist or be even angry in any situation.

400
00:22:40,902 --> 00:22:43,822
Speaker 2: That's what they told me. And obviously when they knew

401
00:22:43,822 --> 00:22:46,182
Speaker 2: the full story, they were very shocked.

402
00:22:47,062 --> 00:22:48,702
Speaker 1: Well, he was in their lives. He was married to

403
00:22:48,742 --> 00:22:52,302
Speaker 1: Merle for over twenty two years. He died in two

404
00:22:52,342 --> 00:22:57,062
Speaker 1: thousand and two in his seventies. She died in twenty twelve,

405
00:22:58,262 --> 00:23:02,542
Speaker 1: and by this point, the truth of the magnitude of

406
00:23:02,582 --> 00:23:04,622
Speaker 1: his crimes were still kind of hidden to the family,

407
00:23:04,662 --> 00:23:05,942
Speaker 1: wasn't it. How did they find out?

408
00:23:07,822 --> 00:23:11,222
Speaker 2: Hidden to everybody knew obviously, and that new life they

409
00:23:11,262 --> 00:23:13,542
Speaker 2: found out because I told him.

410
00:23:13,342 --> 00:23:15,702
Speaker 1: Tell us about how you came into this story. You

411
00:23:15,982 --> 00:23:18,622
Speaker 1: mentioned at the start that you got this case report

412
00:23:18,702 --> 00:23:19,702
Speaker 1: thrown onto your desk.

413
00:23:20,702 --> 00:23:23,382
Speaker 2: Well, whenever John threw something in my way and it

414
00:23:23,382 --> 00:23:26,622
Speaker 2: was going to be interesting. He only chose really interesting stories,

415
00:23:26,662 --> 00:23:29,662
Speaker 2: and as we said, it was just one unbelievable and too.

416
00:23:29,942 --> 00:23:32,182
Speaker 2: I just knew there had to be more to it

417
00:23:32,302 --> 00:23:34,262
Speaker 2: in some aspect, and I really did that. Even at

418
00:23:34,262 --> 00:23:36,022
Speaker 2: that stage. I wanted to know what happened to him,

419
00:23:36,382 --> 00:23:39,102
Speaker 2: But even more so when I met Noline, who was

420
00:23:39,102 --> 00:23:42,622
Speaker 2: the young girl who survived the massacre, because she was

421
00:23:42,862 --> 00:23:46,862
Speaker 2: full of anger, hate and fear. This is a woman

422
00:23:46,862 --> 00:23:50,302
Speaker 2: in her fifties who had lived in incredible trauma and

423
00:23:50,342 --> 00:23:54,382
Speaker 2: she still feared from him, her uncle Barty. She had

424
00:23:54,462 --> 00:23:57,502
Speaker 2: nightmares about him coming back and shooting her. So once

425
00:23:57,542 --> 00:23:59,822
Speaker 2: I interviewed her, I definitely want to know what happened

426
00:23:59,862 --> 00:24:03,662
Speaker 2: to her. Clifford Bath following me, I thought we owed

427
00:24:03,702 --> 00:24:05,382
Speaker 2: it to her to tell her. If he was dead,

428
00:24:05,422 --> 00:24:08,662
Speaker 2: there was strong chance he was, but she should know

429
00:24:09,822 --> 00:24:12,742
Speaker 2: and hopefully they put her out of some kind of misery.

430
00:24:13,502 --> 00:24:16,782
Speaker 2: How she found out about the murders was just horrendous.

431
00:24:17,582 --> 00:24:20,182
Speaker 2: She was a police officers came to the house where

432
00:24:20,222 --> 00:24:23,982
Speaker 2: she was staying, and her mother came in and told

433
00:24:24,022 --> 00:24:26,462
Speaker 2: her to go and go in the bedroom. So it

434
00:24:26,542 --> 00:24:29,702
Speaker 2: obviously said she couldn't hear anything. The TV was under

435
00:24:29,702 --> 00:24:34,382
Speaker 2: the bedroom and while the police officers were informing her

436
00:24:34,502 --> 00:24:36,622
Speaker 2: so not her mother, I think it was an auntie

437
00:24:36,662 --> 00:24:39,502
Speaker 2: who was looking after it about what had happened. It

438
00:24:39,662 --> 00:24:42,742
Speaker 2: came up on the television and there were pictures and

439
00:24:42,782 --> 00:24:46,782
Speaker 2: Noleen so saw that her mother and brother are being killed,

440
00:24:46,782 --> 00:24:50,862
Speaker 2: plus her wife of family, seven cousins found out her

441
00:24:50,982 --> 00:24:52,622
Speaker 2: family had been and she sat there and watched the

442
00:24:52,662 --> 00:24:53,942
Speaker 2: TV and that's how she floaded.

443
00:24:54,062 --> 00:24:57,902
Speaker 3: That's horrendous, yeah, and imaginable.

444
00:24:58,142 --> 00:25:02,702
Speaker 2: So no wonder she's got a lot of trauma and yeah,

445
00:25:02,702 --> 00:25:04,382
Speaker 2: So that was the first story I wrote, really was

446
00:25:04,422 --> 00:25:09,262
Speaker 2: about her her journey and however, we wanted to know

447
00:25:09,302 --> 00:25:11,262
Speaker 2: if he was alive, and then I kind of made

448
00:25:11,262 --> 00:25:15,102
Speaker 2: an approach to police, so I interviewed the two police

449
00:25:15,102 --> 00:25:17,662
Speaker 2: officers too to get the full story. They were very

450
00:25:17,742 --> 00:25:20,582
Speaker 2: kind in their time. And then I approached the police

451
00:25:20,622 --> 00:25:23,102
Speaker 2: and asked them if they could confirm if he was

452
00:25:23,142 --> 00:25:26,342
Speaker 2: dead or alive. I took a couple of emails, and

453
00:25:26,342 --> 00:25:29,782
Speaker 2: then I got a very surprising email back that's confirm

454
00:25:29,822 --> 00:25:33,182
Speaker 2: who was dead, but also told me his surname, which

455
00:25:33,182 --> 00:25:36,702
Speaker 2: I was not expecting. So with that and I started

456
00:25:36,702 --> 00:25:40,582
Speaker 2: looking for him and I found him.

457
00:25:40,702 --> 00:25:45,262
Speaker 1: Well, you found he's Tony's grave. He found his tombstone,

458
00:25:45,382 --> 00:25:46,582
Speaker 1: and that's.

459
00:25:46,462 --> 00:25:48,422
Speaker 2: How I knew, and i'd boy the dates, I just

460
00:25:48,462 --> 00:25:50,382
Speaker 2: worked out it had to be him. And what was

461
00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:53,822
Speaker 2: on the tombstone was the greatest love from your children

462
00:25:53,902 --> 00:25:59,502
Speaker 2: and grandchildren, just the man who killed his first family.

463
00:26:00,222 --> 00:26:02,102
Speaker 1: What did you think when you first saw that?

464
00:26:04,582 --> 00:26:07,342
Speaker 2: One of the most surprising things I've ever seen. I think,

465
00:26:07,462 --> 00:26:09,502
Speaker 2: just you can't. I mean, at this stage, I didn't

466
00:26:09,542 --> 00:26:12,902
Speaker 2: know there was seven children, all these grandchildren, so I

467
00:26:13,022 --> 00:26:15,662
Speaker 2: just couldn't understand it. I thought, how did that happen?

468
00:26:15,942 --> 00:26:19,262
Speaker 2: Maybe it's not him, because here's the loving children and

469
00:26:19,302 --> 00:26:24,822
Speaker 2: grandchildren giving their grandpapa a lovely stand off. I just yes.

470
00:26:25,622 --> 00:26:27,462
Speaker 2: And then when I told Norlen, of course I was

471
00:26:28,382 --> 00:26:31,062
Speaker 2: that's so far worse. She couldn't believe he'd gotten another

472
00:26:31,102 --> 00:26:34,622
Speaker 2: family and lived happily. I mean, even if he hadn't

473
00:26:34,782 --> 00:26:37,982
Speaker 2: caused any more chaos. He didn't deserve that, I was

474
00:26:38,022 --> 00:26:40,702
Speaker 2: her opinion. He didn't deserve another life and another family.

475
00:26:41,582 --> 00:26:45,742
Speaker 1: So how did you track down the second family that

476
00:26:45,822 --> 00:26:48,902
Speaker 1: all the kids and the relatives, and how did you

477
00:26:49,142 --> 00:26:53,622
Speaker 1: have these conversations with them about his true identity?

478
00:26:54,422 --> 00:26:56,502
Speaker 2: I tracked them down the same way I found Orleane probably,

479
00:26:56,502 --> 00:26:59,862
Speaker 2: which is social media, so people who were a presence

480
00:27:00,182 --> 00:27:02,982
Speaker 2: on social media. So you're just slow putting two and

481
00:27:03,022 --> 00:27:06,422
Speaker 2: two together. Eventually I worked out where he was from,

482
00:27:06,462 --> 00:27:08,702
Speaker 2: where Clifford must have been living, and then worked out

483
00:27:08,902 --> 00:27:12,102
Speaker 2: had Mills name by that stage, So eventually I worked

484
00:27:12,102 --> 00:27:14,422
Speaker 2: out who he was, where he was and where he lived.

485
00:27:15,302 --> 00:27:17,542
Speaker 2: I mean, we were ready to publish, and you have

486
00:27:17,662 --> 00:27:20,142
Speaker 2: to give the respect to that family and tell them

487
00:27:20,622 --> 00:27:25,022
Speaker 2: that what are we publishing and warn them, yeah, they're

488
00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:27,422
Speaker 2: in Queensland. Maybe it wouldn't have even reached them being

489
00:27:27,422 --> 00:27:30,942
Speaker 2: published in Adelaide, maybe not, but they deserve the respect

490
00:27:30,982 --> 00:27:34,702
Speaker 2: to know what was being published and what was being

491
00:27:34,742 --> 00:27:38,942
Speaker 2: said about their grandfather and stepfather. Very difficult, I thought

492
00:27:39,062 --> 00:27:42,982
Speaker 2: the family handled things magnificently. They had a family conference.

493
00:27:43,142 --> 00:27:47,022
Speaker 2: They had told everybody of an adult age about what

494
00:27:47,142 --> 00:27:49,182
Speaker 2: was going to be said that it was probably true.

495
00:27:49,622 --> 00:27:52,262
Speaker 2: In fact, it was true. They researched it all themselves,

496
00:27:52,622 --> 00:27:57,022
Speaker 2: and yeah, they dealt with it very well. Terrible shocked

497
00:27:57,062 --> 00:27:59,542
Speaker 2: at them all. They just couldn't get their head around it.

498
00:28:00,582 --> 00:28:03,262
Speaker 1: One of the family members that you ended up quoting

499
00:28:03,302 --> 00:28:05,982
Speaker 1: in your stories kind of said he was glad he

500
00:28:06,022 --> 00:28:06,742
Speaker 1: was dead by then.

501
00:28:07,902 --> 00:28:11,742
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been obviously Flowers, if it'd been alive. Yeah,

502
00:28:11,902 --> 00:28:14,942
Speaker 2: just an impossible situation if it'd been alive. So thankfully

503
00:28:14,982 --> 00:28:17,422
Speaker 2: it had all happened after Clifford had passed on.

504
00:28:19,382 --> 00:28:22,942
Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit more about Noline, because

505
00:28:22,982 --> 00:28:26,702
Speaker 1: she seems like, you know, a bit like the forgotten

506
00:28:26,782 --> 00:28:31,502
Speaker 1: victim in this story. How has that the crime shaped

507
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:33,982
Speaker 1: her life?

508
00:28:34,742 --> 00:28:37,502
Speaker 2: Very hard to judge, but having interviewed her, I know

509
00:28:37,582 --> 00:28:43,262
Speaker 2: it's it's the most traumatic incident of her life and

510
00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:47,422
Speaker 2: she has lived in fear. Basically she had. Some people

511
00:28:47,502 --> 00:28:49,422
Speaker 2: might think it's not realistic that he had ever come

512
00:28:49,422 --> 00:28:51,742
Speaker 2: back and kill her, but she she believed that was

513
00:28:51,742 --> 00:28:55,982
Speaker 2: a possibility, that yeah, he was mad enough to kill Tempe,

514
00:28:56,102 --> 00:28:57,782
Speaker 2: But why wasn't he mad enough to come and find

515
00:28:57,862 --> 00:29:00,662
Speaker 2: her and kill her? And she had children as well.

516
00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:02,422
Speaker 2: By the stage, she had a few children of her own.

517
00:29:03,382 --> 00:29:06,102
Speaker 2: And I think she suffered what all of us suffered,

518
00:29:06,142 --> 00:29:09,222
Speaker 2: which is the how how can you have been let out?

519
00:29:09,502 --> 00:29:11,142
Speaker 2: And how could have been given the chance of the

520
00:29:11,182 --> 00:29:14,342
Speaker 2: second life. She really struggled that he didn't he wouldn't

521
00:29:14,342 --> 00:29:18,222
Speaker 2: face punishment for wrecking her life and ten other lives,

522
00:29:18,222 --> 00:29:21,742
Speaker 2: I mean, and dozens of other lives. Potentially, There's a

523
00:29:21,742 --> 00:29:23,942
Speaker 2: whole population that he killed that night. It wasn't just

524
00:29:23,982 --> 00:29:26,982
Speaker 2: ten people. There was a futures, whether they got married,

525
00:29:26,982 --> 00:29:30,342
Speaker 2: they all have had children, There's a continuation there that

526
00:29:30,422 --> 00:29:33,382
Speaker 2: he obliterated and those kind of things. Yes, she really

527
00:29:33,422 --> 00:29:36,222
Speaker 2: struggled with She wanted him. I mean, she was very

528
00:29:36,222 --> 00:29:38,302
Speaker 2: frank about how she wanted him to die and he

529
00:29:38,342 --> 00:29:41,662
Speaker 2: should die in pain because she felt pain, and she

530
00:29:41,742 --> 00:29:43,502
Speaker 2: wanted him to have had a miserable life. And then

531
00:29:43,542 --> 00:29:46,422
Speaker 2: she found out he had an incredibly wonderful life for

532
00:29:46,422 --> 00:29:47,782
Speaker 2: the last twenty years of his life.

533
00:29:48,902 --> 00:29:52,902
Speaker 1: Is there an argument to the very least that she

534
00:29:52,942 --> 00:29:54,702
Speaker 1: should have been told that he was dead.

535
00:29:56,622 --> 00:30:00,182
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I tried to get something happening at the time

536
00:30:00,382 --> 00:30:04,222
Speaker 2: around this case that victims should be informed. This is

537
00:30:04,222 --> 00:30:08,062
Speaker 2: an extraordinary case, but there are other incidences where victims

538
00:30:08,342 --> 00:30:10,982
Speaker 2: do not know what happened to the perpetry. I mean,

539
00:30:11,062 --> 00:30:16,502
Speaker 2: other people have had new identities and disappeared, and I

540
00:30:16,542 --> 00:30:19,422
Speaker 2: think you should be told if somebody in that circumstances

541
00:30:19,462 --> 00:30:22,342
Speaker 2: has died. I think it would make a difference rather

542
00:30:22,342 --> 00:30:24,862
Speaker 2: than people wondering what's going on and if they're coming back,

543
00:30:24,942 --> 00:30:27,822
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think that's the least the police could

544
00:30:27,822 --> 00:30:29,022
Speaker 2: do in those circumstances.

545
00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:33,302
Speaker 1: Did you contact the South Australian Parole Board and kind

546
00:30:33,342 --> 00:30:37,862
Speaker 1: of ask them retrospectively why did this happen? Could this

547
00:30:37,902 --> 00:30:39,942
Speaker 1: happen again? Would they able to give you any answers?

548
00:30:40,782 --> 00:30:43,742
Speaker 2: This South Australian prole Board on the head is Francis

549
00:30:43,742 --> 00:30:47,102
Speaker 2: Nelson QC. She's been ed for thirty three years. She's

550
00:30:47,142 --> 00:30:52,782
Speaker 2: a great friend of Roma Mitchell's and she's a little

551
00:30:52,782 --> 00:30:56,902
Speaker 2: bit mystified too. But then she's said that they don't

552
00:30:56,902 --> 00:30:59,422
Speaker 2: have didn't have the full story back in nineteen seventy nine,

553
00:30:59,462 --> 00:31:02,382
Speaker 2: and that these days there would be far more evidence,

554
00:31:02,462 --> 00:31:08,902
Speaker 2: far more interviews and psychological profiling. She believes the Parole

555
00:31:08,942 --> 00:31:11,142
Speaker 2: board today would have a lot more information to be

556
00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:13,942
Speaker 2: basing a judgment on if you can't say whether they'd

557
00:31:13,982 --> 00:31:17,862
Speaker 2: make the same decision or not, but I'm thinking probably not,

558
00:31:17,982 --> 00:31:22,142
Speaker 2: But who knows. But yeah, it's a surprise.

559
00:31:22,262 --> 00:31:25,542
Speaker 1: Which I guess is reassuring. But what worries me is

560
00:31:25,582 --> 00:31:30,662
Speaker 1: how many other Clifford's are out there from the sixties, seventies,

561
00:31:30,702 --> 00:31:36,902
Speaker 1: eighties that perhaps got new identities that we don't know about.

562
00:31:37,622 --> 00:31:39,702
Speaker 1: Do you think that that's a common occurrence or am

563
00:31:39,742 --> 00:31:41,342
Speaker 1: I kind of catastrophizing it a bit?

564
00:31:42,062 --> 00:31:42,222
Speaker 4: No?

565
00:31:42,222 --> 00:31:44,222
Speaker 2: No, I definitely think it was a common occurrence back

566
00:31:44,222 --> 00:31:46,942
Speaker 2: in the sixties, seventies, eighties. Maybe it still happens, probably

567
00:31:46,942 --> 00:31:50,582
Speaker 2: happens in cases less horrific and less high profile than

568
00:31:50,582 --> 00:31:52,542
Speaker 2: this was at the time. It's apite the fact that

569
00:31:52,582 --> 00:31:55,902
Speaker 2: it disappeared from public view. But yeah, there must be

570
00:31:55,982 --> 00:31:58,302
Speaker 2: a lot of people who get new identities.

571
00:31:58,702 --> 00:32:00,782
Speaker 1: When you look back at your career and all the

572
00:32:00,822 --> 00:32:04,262
Speaker 1: stories you've covered, how does this one compare?

573
00:32:04,822 --> 00:32:08,342
Speaker 2: Cover a lot of stories, a lot of amazing stories.

574
00:32:08,662 --> 00:32:11,822
Speaker 2: This is probably the most surprising the fact, Yeah, this

575
00:32:11,862 --> 00:32:14,542
Speaker 2: would have to be the most surprising to actually track

576
00:32:14,622 --> 00:32:17,182
Speaker 2: him down, thinking I remember I was thinking well, we're

577
00:32:17,182 --> 00:32:20,782
Speaker 2: never going to find him, and then thanks to the police,

578
00:32:20,902 --> 00:32:24,142
Speaker 2: I'd like to think somebody in the police officer did

579
00:32:24,142 --> 00:32:26,742
Speaker 2: the right thing and gave me his name. Maybe it

580
00:32:26,782 --> 00:32:31,262
Speaker 2: was an accident, but maybe not. And yeah, just from

581
00:32:31,302 --> 00:32:33,262
Speaker 2: that point of view, we ever going to find him again?

582
00:32:33,382 --> 00:32:34,902
Speaker 2: I mean I think we all knew he was dead,

583
00:32:34,942 --> 00:32:37,822
Speaker 2: but then actually find him to find out what had

584
00:32:37,862 --> 00:32:40,782
Speaker 2: happened for us twenty ode years of his life. Yeah,

585
00:32:40,822 --> 00:32:43,222
Speaker 2: definitely the most surprising outcome.

586
00:32:44,142 --> 00:32:46,302
Speaker 1: It's been quite a few years since you kind of

587
00:32:46,342 --> 00:32:49,742
Speaker 1: broke the news to his second family. Have you heard

588
00:32:50,542 --> 00:32:54,222
Speaker 1: anything from them since? How they've fared since learning this?

589
00:32:55,302 --> 00:32:58,902
Speaker 2: Nothing? No, I wouldn't expect to. I hope they've fared

590
00:32:59,022 --> 00:33:01,702
Speaker 2: very well. I hope they coped and they put it

591
00:33:01,742 --> 00:33:03,822
Speaker 2: behind them, because what else can they do. I mean,

592
00:33:03,862 --> 00:33:06,782
Speaker 2: there was that there were not absolutely no knowledge. I

593
00:33:06,822 --> 00:33:11,982
Speaker 2: don't imagine Merle had full knowledge of happened. And where

594
00:33:12,022 --> 00:33:13,782
Speaker 2: do you go and check up even on something like that.

595
00:33:13,822 --> 00:33:16,982
Speaker 2: I mean, there are many famous murder cases in Australia.

596
00:33:17,102 --> 00:33:18,702
Speaker 2: This should have been one of them, but it wasn't.

597
00:33:18,862 --> 00:33:22,222
Speaker 2: So they had no way of finding out truth about

598
00:33:22,862 --> 00:33:25,542
Speaker 2: what Clifford had done and whether what he was telling

599
00:33:25,622 --> 00:33:28,782
Speaker 2: them was the truth. They did find in his papers

600
00:33:29,102 --> 00:33:32,462
Speaker 2: after he died, the release notice from the prison which

601
00:33:32,462 --> 00:33:35,462
Speaker 2: said he'd been released after three years and for murdering

602
00:33:35,462 --> 00:33:37,822
Speaker 2: his wife. Of course, we go back to that time

603
00:33:37,862 --> 00:33:40,142
Speaker 2: when he wasn't charged with the other murders, so it.

604
00:33:40,142 --> 00:33:42,982
Speaker 1: Wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been in the prison papers.

605
00:33:42,662 --> 00:33:45,342
Speaker 2: It was not his records. Yeah, so that was a

606
00:33:45,342 --> 00:33:47,742
Speaker 2: frustration for the police officers who believed he should have

607
00:33:47,742 --> 00:33:50,462
Speaker 2: been charged with all the murders at the time. And

608
00:33:50,502 --> 00:33:52,862
Speaker 2: then they were relaxed about it because he's got a

609
00:33:53,622 --> 00:33:57,502
Speaker 2: death sentence. And then ultimately that probably paid offer him

610
00:33:57,502 --> 00:33:59,822
Speaker 2: that he was not charged with all those other murders,

611
00:34:00,142 --> 00:34:01,902
Speaker 2: so he could be made to look like he just

612
00:34:01,982 --> 00:34:03,382
Speaker 2: killed his wife in a fit of anger.

613
00:34:03,822 --> 00:34:07,142
Speaker 1: Did those police officers try to go back and get

614
00:34:07,142 --> 00:34:10,302
Speaker 1: those charges once he'd been released. Were they like, okay,

615
00:34:10,422 --> 00:34:11,422
Speaker 1: well let's try and charge him.

616
00:34:12,222 --> 00:34:14,502
Speaker 2: It was out of their hands. They won't send any

617
00:34:14,582 --> 00:34:17,822
Speaker 2: police officers. It's down to the prosecution. By that stage,

618
00:34:17,862 --> 00:34:22,462
Speaker 2: they did push telling me they really thought I think

619
00:34:22,462 --> 00:34:24,742
Speaker 2: the police, even higher up the police thought he should

620
00:34:24,742 --> 00:34:28,222
Speaker 2: be charged. But there was a consensus that we waste

621
00:34:28,262 --> 00:34:30,382
Speaker 2: public money and he's going to prison for the rest

622
00:34:30,422 --> 00:34:33,542
Speaker 2: of his life anyway, so let's not waste our time.

623
00:34:34,822 --> 00:34:37,342
Speaker 1: I think the thing that surprises me about this story

624
00:34:37,462 --> 00:34:40,582
Speaker 1: not being bigger in terms of one of those stories

625
00:34:40,622 --> 00:34:45,502
Speaker 1: that all Australians know the name Clifford Buffalome slash Clifford Palmer,

626
00:34:45,702 --> 00:34:49,782
Speaker 1: is that in the media, to have a good story,

627
00:34:49,782 --> 00:34:53,342
Speaker 1: you need vision, you need photos, you need color, and

628
00:34:53,382 --> 00:34:56,342
Speaker 1: this had everything. We've got the photos of the victims.

629
00:34:56,342 --> 00:34:59,142
Speaker 3: We've got photos of him exactly.

630
00:34:59,262 --> 00:35:03,022
Speaker 2: There is footage of the day that they found the bodies.

631
00:35:03,702 --> 00:35:06,302
Speaker 2: There's the body of Winness laying out in the open

632
00:35:06,342 --> 00:35:09,062
Speaker 2: in the rain with a cover over it. It's just

633
00:35:09,062 --> 00:35:11,422
Speaker 2: just to see that footage was just horrendous. You're there

634
00:35:11,942 --> 00:35:13,942
Speaker 2: and you know how those police officers are feeling. You

635
00:35:13,942 --> 00:35:16,782
Speaker 2: can see the look on their faces that they've just

636
00:35:16,822 --> 00:35:20,342
Speaker 2: been inside that house and they've never seen anything like it,

637
00:35:20,382 --> 00:35:23,062
Speaker 2: and I've never want to see anything like it again. Yeah,

638
00:35:23,102 --> 00:35:25,342
Speaker 2: we've got all that. It's not like we're missing much.

639
00:35:25,382 --> 00:35:27,702
Speaker 2: We've got a full confession. There's no mystery about what

640
00:35:27,822 --> 00:35:32,702
Speaker 2: happened in more order on that day. So yes, that's

641
00:35:32,822 --> 00:35:36,702
Speaker 2: another baffling reason for why this is not not in

642
00:35:36,782 --> 00:35:39,142
Speaker 2: the public consciousness.

643
00:35:38,502 --> 00:35:41,782
Speaker 1: And you can't really, through your travels explain why.

644
00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:46,102
Speaker 2: No. I've got no understanding why missing. The only thing

645
00:35:46,142 --> 00:35:49,182
Speaker 2: I can think of is that it was a family affair.

646
00:35:49,262 --> 00:35:51,702
Speaker 2: Somebody said that to me once. This was a family

647
00:35:51,822 --> 00:35:56,342
Speaker 2: a fair, a personal episode, and therefore you know it's

648
00:35:56,342 --> 00:36:00,062
Speaker 2: not about particular interest too. If you've been hunting and

649
00:36:00,182 --> 00:36:02,062
Speaker 2: killed ten people out in the forest, as other people

650
00:36:02,102 --> 00:36:04,622
Speaker 2: have done, maybe his they would be more famous, but

651
00:36:05,262 --> 00:36:08,262
Speaker 2: killing them in his own farmhouse was obviously not the

652
00:36:08,302 --> 00:36:10,222
Speaker 2: same impact. A lot of people said it was a

653
00:36:10,222 --> 00:36:13,622
Speaker 2: good I remember doing that. A lot of people who

654
00:36:13,622 --> 00:36:15,742
Speaker 2: lived in the area at the time were involved in racing,

655
00:36:15,782 --> 00:36:18,062
Speaker 2: and I used to cover racing, and that's when I

656
00:36:18,102 --> 00:36:20,342
Speaker 2: got back there. It was a good blow. He just

657
00:36:20,342 --> 00:36:21,142
Speaker 2: had a mad moment.

658
00:36:22,862 --> 00:36:26,702
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

659
00:36:27,302 --> 00:36:30,502
Speaker 1: Up next, I talk with former detective Alan Arthur, who

660
00:36:30,542 --> 00:36:33,902
Speaker 1: shares some more about the crime scene, his interactions with

661
00:36:33,982 --> 00:36:40,702
Speaker 1: Clifford Buffolomew, and the reasoning behind the sentence he received. Alan,

662
00:36:41,062 --> 00:36:43,822
Speaker 1: where were you at in your life and your career

663
00:36:44,102 --> 00:36:45,302
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one.

664
00:36:47,022 --> 00:36:50,422
Speaker 4: We were living in Adelaide and It was a peaceful

665
00:36:50,542 --> 00:36:52,902
Speaker 4: sort of life, except that I used to be called

666
00:36:52,942 --> 00:36:55,582
Speaker 4: out to go to homicide and other violent crimes from

667
00:36:55,622 --> 00:36:57,782
Speaker 4: time to time. Not the only one member of the

668
00:36:57,862 --> 00:37:00,622
Speaker 4: homicids squad, but yeah, it happened regularly.

669
00:37:00,702 --> 00:37:03,742
Speaker 1: By the way, how long had you been a detective at.

670
00:37:03,582 --> 00:37:06,582
Speaker 4: That point, seven years? And I was in my third

671
00:37:06,702 --> 00:37:08,662
Speaker 4: year in a HOMOICAIDS squad, So you were.

672
00:37:08,542 --> 00:37:12,462
Speaker 1: Fairly experienced when it came to being on the scene

673
00:37:12,502 --> 00:37:15,662
Speaker 1: of really horrible murders and grizzly crimes.

674
00:37:16,822 --> 00:37:18,822
Speaker 4: Well, that's true, and I've been to half a dozen

675
00:37:18,902 --> 00:37:22,462
Speaker 4: or so murders in the three years preceding the Hope

676
00:37:22,462 --> 00:37:26,702
Speaker 4: Forest murders, so it wasn't a new event. But I

677
00:37:26,782 --> 00:37:31,262
Speaker 4: must say the size of the numbers of victims was

678
00:37:32,062 --> 00:37:35,102
Speaker 4: far more than I've ever seen before.

679
00:37:35,622 --> 00:37:38,662
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you first got the call asking

680
00:37:38,702 --> 00:37:40,982
Speaker 1: you to attend the Farming Forest?

681
00:37:41,502 --> 00:37:46,062
Speaker 4: I we do, take me down there. The detective Sergeant

682
00:37:46,102 --> 00:37:49,582
Speaker 4: Giles was the death sergeant and he had only just

683
00:37:49,662 --> 00:37:52,462
Speaker 4: come on the early hours of the morning for the

684
00:37:52,502 --> 00:37:57,302
Speaker 4: morning ship. His job was to coordinate work and attending members,

685
00:37:57,862 --> 00:38:01,902
Speaker 4: allocate them work to do, and he ran me for memory.

686
00:38:01,902 --> 00:38:04,702
Speaker 4: It was still dark, and he said, we've got a

687
00:38:04,782 --> 00:38:08,222
Speaker 4: job on. We've got ten people dead at a place

688
00:38:08,262 --> 00:38:11,902
Speaker 4: called Hope Posts in the Adelaide Hills. We'll pick you

689
00:38:12,022 --> 00:38:15,222
Speaker 4: up and convey you to headquarters and from there you

690
00:38:15,902 --> 00:38:18,142
Speaker 4: will be off to Hope for us.

691
00:38:19,142 --> 00:38:23,822
Speaker 1: And when you arrived at the farm, what was that like?

692
00:38:23,862 --> 00:38:26,902
Speaker 1: What did you first see? What was going on?

693
00:38:26,902 --> 00:38:31,662
Speaker 4: On arrival? Uniform police were there, and I think the

694
00:38:31,702 --> 00:38:36,102
Speaker 4: doctor that came with the local uniform police officer was there,

695
00:38:36,422 --> 00:38:39,582
Speaker 4: that's from memory. But outside there was the body of

696
00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:44,262
Speaker 4: a woman and she was dead and had a gunshop

697
00:38:44,462 --> 00:38:51,102
Speaker 4: into her head. And then we're inside and it was

698
00:38:51,182 --> 00:38:54,222
Speaker 4: just a short distance inside the back door to where

699
00:38:54,302 --> 00:38:58,062
Speaker 4: the kitchen was located, and sitting at the kitchen having

700
00:38:58,302 --> 00:39:02,782
Speaker 4: what I remember was a beer, was the successful following you,

701
00:39:03,822 --> 00:39:06,662
Speaker 4: the owner of the house or the renter of the house,

702
00:39:07,462 --> 00:39:12,702
Speaker 4: and the relative of a woman lying dead outside. As

703
00:39:12,782 --> 00:39:16,822
Speaker 4: I came into the kitchen, I just introduced myself and

704
00:39:16,902 --> 00:39:20,182
Speaker 4: told him I'd be talking to him shortly. He continued

705
00:39:20,222 --> 00:39:25,622
Speaker 4: with his glass of beer. A uniformant police officer was

706
00:39:25,622 --> 00:39:29,582
Speaker 4: standing not too far away, keeping a very close eye

707
00:39:29,662 --> 00:39:32,542
Speaker 4: on him. And so I didn't inspect that the crime

708
00:39:32,622 --> 00:39:36,542
Speaker 4: scene and found bodies scattered throughout the house. There were

709
00:39:36,622 --> 00:39:40,542
Speaker 4: nine bodies, including the passes way. His wife was lying

710
00:39:40,582 --> 00:39:43,462
Speaker 4: on her back in the main bedroom with the gunshot.

711
00:39:43,462 --> 00:39:45,462
Speaker 4: Winner of the head. They all had gunshot went the

712
00:39:45,542 --> 00:39:50,582
Speaker 4: head and including a two year old baby in a

713
00:39:50,662 --> 00:39:55,622
Speaker 4: cot which was related to the woman lying outside.

714
00:39:56,022 --> 00:39:57,062
Speaker 1: That would have been Winners.

715
00:39:57,102 --> 00:39:57,942
Speaker 3: That was outside.

716
00:39:59,062 --> 00:39:59,542
Speaker 4: That's right.

717
00:40:00,502 --> 00:40:03,342
Speaker 1: What kind of state was Clifford in? Was he distressed?

718
00:40:03,542 --> 00:40:03,742
Speaker 4: Was he?

719
00:40:05,542 --> 00:40:06,622
Speaker 1: Did he say anything to you?

720
00:40:08,102 --> 00:40:14,102
Speaker 4: When I spoke to him, he spoke pleasantly, so to speak.

721
00:40:14,982 --> 00:40:20,222
Speaker 4: He didn't show any signs of distraught. Cool, calm and

722
00:40:20,262 --> 00:40:22,982
Speaker 4: collected was the only way I can describe him having

723
00:40:23,662 --> 00:40:27,862
Speaker 4: just killed ten people, which surprised me to a point.

724
00:40:28,862 --> 00:40:32,542
Speaker 4: But once I got to know him doing my questioning

725
00:40:32,582 --> 00:40:35,702
Speaker 4: of him, it was easy to understand that he just

726
00:40:36,542 --> 00:40:40,542
Speaker 4: was able to do things and not get too flushed

727
00:40:40,542 --> 00:40:40,942
Speaker 4: about it.

728
00:40:41,182 --> 00:40:44,102
Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Why was he that kind

729
00:40:44,102 --> 00:40:44,982
Speaker 1: of personality?

730
00:40:45,942 --> 00:40:51,742
Speaker 4: I don't know what was behind his personality, but he

731
00:40:51,902 --> 00:40:59,462
Speaker 4: was a slaughterman by occupation, and I mean that sort

732
00:40:59,502 --> 00:41:01,422
Speaker 4: of ditched him with what he did at the house,

733
00:41:01,502 --> 00:41:06,662
Speaker 4: by the way, but he seemed cool and collective. He

734
00:41:06,782 --> 00:41:09,742
Speaker 4: was never flustered, not during the entire interview with him,

735
00:41:09,822 --> 00:41:13,462
Speaker 4: where he made full of admissions, clear admissions about what

736
00:41:13,502 --> 00:41:18,342
Speaker 4: he did, the execution of his whole family and extended

737
00:41:18,382 --> 00:41:23,302
Speaker 4: family members. He was just a very cool customer and

738
00:41:23,462 --> 00:41:25,342
Speaker 4: didn't try to hide anything.

739
00:41:26,142 --> 00:41:30,182
Speaker 1: You've described him as being the most hateful man you knew.

740
00:41:30,302 --> 00:41:31,182
Speaker 1: Do you stand by that?

741
00:41:32,982 --> 00:41:39,262
Speaker 4: I can never forgive him. Never. No, It's unforgivable what

742
00:41:39,302 --> 00:41:43,142
Speaker 4: he did when it came to children. I meant, a

743
00:41:43,822 --> 00:41:46,502
Speaker 4: two year old baby and a cop puts the gun

744
00:41:46,502 --> 00:41:49,062
Speaker 4: to its head and kills I mean, goodness, grace to me,

745
00:41:51,942 --> 00:41:54,222
Speaker 4: it's not normal, but it was for him.

746
00:41:55,542 --> 00:41:57,502
Speaker 1: You were the one that actually arrested him at the scene,

747
00:41:57,502 --> 00:41:57,902
Speaker 1: won't you?

748
00:41:58,662 --> 00:42:01,022
Speaker 4: I am, how did.

749
00:42:00,862 --> 00:42:07,102
Speaker 1: The crime scene, seeing what he had done to those children,

750
00:42:07,142 --> 00:42:09,742
Speaker 1: to his wife, to his sister in law, how did

751
00:42:09,742 --> 00:42:11,222
Speaker 1: it affect you seeing.

752
00:42:10,942 --> 00:42:15,622
Speaker 4: All of that? Well, I'm looking at all the photographs now,

753
00:42:16,582 --> 00:42:24,702
Speaker 4: and I mean it's just a despicable situation. You've got

754
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:28,622
Speaker 4: a wife lying on her back in the main bedroom,

755
00:42:29,342 --> 00:42:31,382
Speaker 4: shot in the head, got a four year old girl

756
00:42:31,422 --> 00:42:35,822
Speaker 4: in a bed alongside her, shot in the head. They're

757
00:42:35,862 --> 00:42:39,302
Speaker 4: all gunshot run into the head. You've got in the hallway,

758
00:42:39,742 --> 00:42:44,582
Speaker 4: two teenage girls who woke up to the commotion, and

759
00:42:44,622 --> 00:42:48,062
Speaker 4: he gunned them down, all shot in the head. A

760
00:42:48,222 --> 00:42:52,982
Speaker 4: boy also woke up. He's lying in the passage. Gunshot

761
00:42:53,022 --> 00:42:57,182
Speaker 4: went into the head. You've got the the young baby

762
00:42:57,422 --> 00:43:01,702
Speaker 4: in the cot, and another young boy in a bed

763
00:43:01,742 --> 00:43:06,982
Speaker 4: alongside the all shot in the head, and the nineteen

764
00:43:07,062 --> 00:43:14,462
Speaker 4: year old son. He woke and tried to intervene, but

765
00:43:14,662 --> 00:43:18,342
Speaker 4: was bludgeoned with a mallet, and some of the other

766
00:43:18,422 --> 00:43:21,542
Speaker 4: victors were belted with a mallet as well, But the

767
00:43:22,582 --> 00:43:25,142
Speaker 4: nineteen year old son, having been built with a mallet,

768
00:43:25,182 --> 00:43:28,662
Speaker 4: went back to his bed, and of course he too

769
00:43:28,902 --> 00:43:31,742
Speaker 4: was in short in the head, as they all were

770
00:43:32,742 --> 00:43:33,502
Speaker 4: and winners.

771
00:43:33,782 --> 00:43:36,702
Speaker 1: She was shot outside. Did he suggest that she was

772
00:43:36,702 --> 00:43:37,502
Speaker 1: trying to run?

773
00:43:38,622 --> 00:43:42,182
Speaker 4: Absolutely? She It was clear that she had tried to

774
00:43:42,222 --> 00:43:46,102
Speaker 4: get out of the house. Who pursued her with the

775
00:43:46,142 --> 00:43:49,422
Speaker 4: mallet and bashed her in the head till she was

776
00:43:50,462 --> 00:43:55,382
Speaker 4: apparently unconscious or certainly stunn very stunned, And then he

777
00:43:55,422 --> 00:43:58,062
Speaker 4: went back, got his rifle and shot her in the head.

778
00:44:00,902 --> 00:44:04,462
Speaker 1: It's just shocking to hear, isn't it. The details of

779
00:44:04,462 --> 00:44:04,902
Speaker 1: what he.

780
00:44:04,822 --> 00:44:11,342
Speaker 4: Did well, it is I have I had one wish

781
00:44:11,382 --> 00:44:15,022
Speaker 4: for his soul that, Hey, wats and Hill, I can

782
00:44:15,062 --> 00:44:22,142
Speaker 4: see why I have no people as man whatsoever. Never.

783
00:44:22,422 --> 00:44:27,542
Speaker 4: I mean, it's now what fifty four years since since

784
00:44:27,622 --> 00:44:32,062
Speaker 4: these murders occurred a contillionaire, they're still quite fresh in

785
00:44:32,102 --> 00:44:35,982
Speaker 4: my mind, and they were persistent till I passed allow.

786
00:44:36,022 --> 00:44:37,742
Speaker 4: I suppose the thing.

787
00:44:37,622 --> 00:44:43,102
Speaker 1: That I think about when I imagine Buffalo you going

788
00:44:43,142 --> 00:44:45,182
Speaker 1: on this rampage is that it's not like it was

789
00:44:45,382 --> 00:44:47,902
Speaker 1: happening within a few minutes. It happened over nearly the

790
00:44:47,902 --> 00:44:50,342
Speaker 1: course of an hour, So that gives a lot of

791
00:44:50,422 --> 00:44:55,502
Speaker 1: time and space to reconsider, to talk to his victims

792
00:44:55,582 --> 00:44:56,222
Speaker 1: as he did it.

793
00:44:57,702 --> 00:45:05,502
Speaker 4: Yes, that's right, But the incentive poem was his intent

794
00:45:07,302 --> 00:45:12,462
Speaker 4: to kill his Why and whether that was his only

795
00:45:12,502 --> 00:45:16,262
Speaker 4: wish before he actually shot her just to kill her,

796
00:45:18,382 --> 00:45:20,542
Speaker 4: I don't wear that that's what he intended to do,

797
00:45:20,702 --> 00:45:23,702
Speaker 4: but he got carried away. I think he had an

798
00:45:23,702 --> 00:45:28,982
Speaker 4: intent to do more, more killings than justice. Well, and

799
00:45:29,062 --> 00:45:31,702
Speaker 4: now the reason I say that because intentionally he went

800
00:45:31,862 --> 00:45:34,582
Speaker 4: he had to reload his single shot twenty two rifle

801
00:45:35,142 --> 00:45:38,542
Speaker 4: each time, he had to have access to rounds of

802
00:45:38,582 --> 00:45:43,262
Speaker 4: ammunition nearby. He had to unlock the breach, put the

803
00:45:43,262 --> 00:45:47,222
Speaker 4: bulletin physically one hand, close the breach, pull the trigger,

804
00:45:47,542 --> 00:45:53,102
Speaker 4: and kill unlocked the breach discharged an expended round. Busically

805
00:45:53,142 --> 00:45:55,662
Speaker 4: by hand, put in a fresh round into the breach,

806
00:45:56,022 --> 00:45:59,302
Speaker 4: close the breach, and pull the trigger. He had to

807
00:45:59,382 --> 00:46:05,182
Speaker 4: do that ten times. There's just no there was nothing

808
00:46:05,262 --> 00:46:06,542
Speaker 4: happened automatically.

809
00:46:08,102 --> 00:46:12,702
Speaker 1: When he was initially charge or went to trial. He

810
00:46:12,782 --> 00:46:16,222
Speaker 1: was only tried for the murder of his wife, not

811
00:46:16,262 --> 00:46:18,262
Speaker 1: the rest of the children. How did you feel about that?

812
00:46:19,062 --> 00:46:23,022
Speaker 4: Well, that was my instigation. I charged him with it.

813
00:46:23,022 --> 00:46:27,182
Speaker 4: It was There's a couple of reasons for it. One

814
00:46:27,222 --> 00:46:32,062
Speaker 4: reason is that there was ample evidence of intent to

815
00:46:32,182 --> 00:46:37,262
Speaker 4: kill his wife, ample evidence. There was ample evidence to

816
00:46:37,302 --> 00:46:41,542
Speaker 4: show that he went on to kill, to actively kill

817
00:46:41,902 --> 00:46:47,382
Speaker 4: his family, but to have previous intent. There might have

818
00:46:47,422 --> 00:46:50,822
Speaker 4: been some doubt that these are just sort of reactionary

819
00:46:51,262 --> 00:46:55,782
Speaker 4: activities that took place following the intentional killing. So I

820
00:46:55,942 --> 00:46:58,422
Speaker 4: only charged him with the one that we had the

821
00:46:58,462 --> 00:47:02,662
Speaker 4: most evidence about, because you're respected. Whether you're charged him

822
00:47:02,662 --> 00:47:05,142
Speaker 4: at ten, he's only going to get to suit at

823
00:47:05,182 --> 00:47:08,582
Speaker 4: the same time in jail, and so that was the

824
00:47:09,022 --> 00:47:13,382
Speaker 4: one that the proof was in abundance, whereas the others

825
00:47:13,422 --> 00:47:17,982
Speaker 4: there might have been excuses for rage and mental problems

826
00:47:18,022 --> 00:47:21,462
Speaker 4: and so forth, And he was admitting freely to having

827
00:47:21,622 --> 00:47:24,062
Speaker 4: wanting to murder his wife, And did.

828
00:47:23,942 --> 00:47:26,822
Speaker 1: You think it wasn't worth the risk of trying to

829
00:47:26,862 --> 00:47:29,142
Speaker 1: go for the other nine charges?

830
00:47:30,342 --> 00:47:34,382
Speaker 4: Well, the fact of life is the courts took into

831
00:47:34,422 --> 00:47:40,342
Speaker 4: account those matters. He didn't necessarily have to charge him

832
00:47:40,342 --> 00:47:44,902
Speaker 4: with ten murders. The circumstances of him committing the murder

833
00:47:44,942 --> 00:47:48,582
Speaker 4: upon his wife included all the acts that he did

834
00:47:48,582 --> 00:47:53,782
Speaker 4: to kill the others as well, So there wasn't necessary

835
00:47:54,062 --> 00:47:57,022
Speaker 4: for him to be charged with ten counts of murder,

836
00:47:57,942 --> 00:48:01,702
Speaker 4: although some people within the police thought I should have

837
00:48:01,742 --> 00:48:04,302
Speaker 4: charged him with more, but I wanted to make sure

838
00:48:04,382 --> 00:48:08,142
Speaker 4: I got him convicted of murder where the evidence was

839
00:48:08,262 --> 00:48:12,622
Speaker 4: most pronounced, that he in tent was clear, whereas he

840
00:48:12,702 --> 00:48:21,302
Speaker 4: might have used the defense of emotions and exaggerated behavior

841
00:48:21,382 --> 00:48:24,622
Speaker 4: and the lack of intent, whereas with his killing of

842
00:48:24,622 --> 00:48:26,502
Speaker 4: his wife it was just total intent.

843
00:48:27,502 --> 00:48:30,822
Speaker 1: As much as I know of the justice system nowadays,

844
00:48:31,542 --> 00:48:35,822
Speaker 1: if he was to be charged now with all ten murders,

845
00:48:35,822 --> 00:48:37,742
Speaker 1: it would be a different story to back then he

846
00:48:37,782 --> 00:48:38,982
Speaker 1: would get more time Now.

847
00:48:40,422 --> 00:48:45,302
Speaker 4: I don't know whether he would really I don't know,

848
00:48:44,822 --> 00:48:48,542
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure that so with the parole system

849
00:48:48,742 --> 00:48:50,382
Speaker 4: the way it is these days, what I read in

850
00:48:50,422 --> 00:48:52,942
Speaker 4: the paper that people walk away after a very short

851
00:48:52,982 --> 00:48:56,982
Speaker 4: times having committed some pretty atrocious crimes. I mean he

852
00:48:57,102 --> 00:49:00,942
Speaker 4: was sentenced to death. Yeah, and that in it sort

853
00:49:00,942 --> 00:49:05,102
Speaker 4: of was a big deal in those days, although governments

854
00:49:05,142 --> 00:49:10,222
Speaker 4: were committing death sentenced to life imprisonment. But when you

855
00:49:10,662 --> 00:49:12,702
Speaker 4: when the sentence came out, I can tell you now

856
00:49:12,742 --> 00:49:17,462
Speaker 4: that the atmosphere in the court was pretty high, you

857
00:49:17,502 --> 00:49:20,302
Speaker 4: know when the judge reads out the death since it

858
00:49:20,422 --> 00:49:21,822
Speaker 4: was really something when the.

859
00:49:21,782 --> 00:49:25,222
Speaker 1: Government came in and decided to overturn and abolish the

860
00:49:25,262 --> 00:49:28,102
Speaker 1: death penalty in Australia, did you ever think that that

861
00:49:28,182 --> 00:49:30,422
Speaker 1: could mean that he would be released? Was that a

862
00:49:30,462 --> 00:49:31,902
Speaker 1: fear of yours?

863
00:49:32,502 --> 00:49:35,942
Speaker 4: Well, the answer is there is yes, because it hasn't

864
00:49:35,982 --> 00:49:38,662
Speaker 4: been a practice for decades where someone has been kept

865
00:49:38,662 --> 00:49:42,422
Speaker 4: in jail for fifty years, for forty years, and with

866
00:49:42,542 --> 00:49:45,542
Speaker 4: the parole war system as it was back in the seventies,

867
00:49:45,582 --> 00:49:50,022
Speaker 4: as I knew it, I mean, people were being let

868
00:49:50,102 --> 00:49:55,142
Speaker 4: out after after shorter periods, and perhaps I thought they

869
00:49:55,182 --> 00:49:58,222
Speaker 4: should have had And as far as Bartholemy was concerned,

870
00:49:58,222 --> 00:50:00,542
Speaker 4: I would have seen him stay there for twenty five years.

871
00:50:00,982 --> 00:50:03,902
Speaker 4: In fact, if they had executed the death party, I

872
00:50:03,902 --> 00:50:06,262
Speaker 4: wouldn't have I would have gone, had to be in

873
00:50:06,262 --> 00:50:10,782
Speaker 4: the pub by myself. You know. It's just just my

874
00:50:10,902 --> 00:50:13,822
Speaker 4: personal attitude. It was at the time. It still is.

875
00:50:15,622 --> 00:50:19,062
Speaker 4: People don't agree with death penalties anymore. But in my mind,

876
00:50:19,102 --> 00:50:21,862
Speaker 4: after a number of homicides that I've been through and

877
00:50:22,582 --> 00:50:26,022
Speaker 4: intent shown by the killers, I just think there's room

878
00:50:26,142 --> 00:50:29,222
Speaker 4: to put some of these killers to waste.

879
00:50:30,142 --> 00:50:32,502
Speaker 1: So he ended up getting out after about eight years.

880
00:50:33,382 --> 00:50:35,702
Speaker 1: Do you remember finding out about that? How did you feel?

881
00:50:37,382 --> 00:50:39,982
Speaker 4: I can't really tell you in words because it would

882
00:50:40,022 --> 00:50:48,342
Speaker 4: be rude. Yeah, yeah, it's I got a call from

883
00:50:48,422 --> 00:50:51,222
Speaker 4: him when he was he spent eight years in jail.

884
00:50:51,542 --> 00:50:54,302
Speaker 4: Some years during that time, I got a call from

885
00:50:54,422 --> 00:50:58,182
Speaker 4: the Atler Labor Prison that he wanted a pair of

886
00:50:58,182 --> 00:51:03,622
Speaker 4: his shoes footwear returned to him. So by appointment, and

887
00:51:03,782 --> 00:51:07,182
Speaker 4: I went to the Outler with his shoes, and I

888
00:51:07,222 --> 00:51:10,582
Speaker 4: was shown to a room, a table and two chairs.

889
00:51:10,582 --> 00:51:12,422
Speaker 4: He said on one so, and I said on the other,

890
00:51:12,462 --> 00:51:16,262
Speaker 4: and prison officers stood at the background, keeping an eye

891
00:51:16,302 --> 00:51:19,502
Speaker 4: on things. And I said, I believe it's what you're

892
00:51:19,542 --> 00:51:21,902
Speaker 4: after there was no nice It isn't old. I just

893
00:51:22,062 --> 00:51:26,702
Speaker 4: treated him coolly. I might have said, how you going anyway?

894
00:51:26,702 --> 00:51:28,542
Speaker 4: I said, I believe this is what you're actual? He

895
00:51:28,542 --> 00:51:31,982
Speaker 4: said yes. I said, okay, here, I like to do

896
00:51:32,062 --> 00:51:35,662
Speaker 4: the sign for these. He signed for them, and then

897
00:51:35,702 --> 00:51:38,422
Speaker 4: he said, I suppose you want to know why I

898
00:51:38,462 --> 00:51:42,022
Speaker 4: wanted to cool a wife? And I said, I know

899
00:51:42,382 --> 00:51:44,342
Speaker 4: all I need to know about you, missed about on

900
00:51:44,462 --> 00:51:49,062
Speaker 4: you and none of us. Good thank you very much, goodbye,

901
00:51:49,422 --> 00:51:52,262
Speaker 4: and I left him sitting. He was sort of coming

902
00:51:52,302 --> 00:51:56,742
Speaker 4: into the chair looking for a nice, friendly chat. I

903
00:51:56,782 --> 00:51:57,422
Speaker 4: cut him short.

904
00:51:57,822 --> 00:51:59,782
Speaker 1: What sounds like he wanted to kind of confess his

905
00:52:00,182 --> 00:52:01,782
Speaker 1: but you just didn't give him the chance. You didn't

906
00:52:01,782 --> 00:52:02,982
Speaker 1: want to, You didn't want to hear it.

907
00:52:03,702 --> 00:52:07,382
Speaker 4: Well, I knew all I needed to know, and I

908
00:52:07,422 --> 00:52:09,622
Speaker 4: told him I knew all I needed to know, and

909
00:52:09,662 --> 00:52:10,782
Speaker 4: so did the court.

910
00:52:11,662 --> 00:52:15,542
Speaker 1: Once he was released, eventually he moved States, went by

911
00:52:15,582 --> 00:52:18,662
Speaker 1: a different name, kind of just blended into Australian society

912
00:52:18,702 --> 00:52:22,062
Speaker 1: and we didn't really hear about him for a very

913
00:52:22,102 --> 00:52:26,222
Speaker 1: long time until a journalist named Craig came knocking. Had

914
00:52:26,262 --> 00:52:31,102
Speaker 1: you heard about him before? Craig uncovered his new life.

915
00:52:31,382 --> 00:52:34,662
Speaker 4: Well, I knew he had changed his name and he'd

916
00:52:34,702 --> 00:52:41,142
Speaker 4: moved to Victoria. I knew that he had partnered with

917
00:52:41,182 --> 00:52:47,182
Speaker 4: a woman who had several children, and a number of

918
00:52:47,222 --> 00:52:51,382
Speaker 4: those children were of or about the age of his

919
00:52:51,462 --> 00:52:53,782
Speaker 4: own children that he'd killed.

920
00:52:54,902 --> 00:52:57,382
Speaker 1: And I guess I do know how that made you feel.

921
00:52:57,422 --> 00:52:59,942
Speaker 1: But please put it into words, knowing that he had

922
00:52:59,942 --> 00:53:02,062
Speaker 1: a second chance at life with seven kids as well,

923
00:53:02,102 --> 00:53:05,222
Speaker 1: the same amount that he murdered.

924
00:53:06,982 --> 00:53:14,742
Speaker 4: Look, hate Triblewood. It's a terrible experience. I won't admit

925
00:53:14,822 --> 00:53:19,222
Speaker 4: to hating him, But what I do wish is that

926
00:53:19,742 --> 00:53:25,022
Speaker 4: the courts took a stronger approach to his future. Whether

927
00:53:25,062 --> 00:53:28,222
Speaker 4: I left him in jahf for thirty years or if

928
00:53:28,262 --> 00:53:31,142
Speaker 4: they'd carried out the death penality. Either way it would

929
00:53:31,182 --> 00:53:34,102
Speaker 4: have been better than what the outcome was. As far

930
00:53:34,142 --> 00:53:37,462
Speaker 4: as I'm the concerned, justice wasn't done properly.

931
00:53:38,422 --> 00:53:40,982
Speaker 1: Craig mentioned that those crime scene photos that you said

932
00:53:40,982 --> 00:53:43,222
Speaker 1: you've got in front of you, you can't bear to

933
00:53:43,262 --> 00:53:46,502
Speaker 1: get rid of them. Why is that?

934
00:53:46,982 --> 00:53:50,182
Speaker 4: No, Okay, I've got them on my lap at the moment.

935
00:53:50,302 --> 00:53:54,222
Speaker 4: I've had a look at them this morning. No, Well,

936
00:53:55,222 --> 00:53:57,582
Speaker 4: I've got to admit I've got most of the investigations

937
00:53:57,582 --> 00:54:03,022
Speaker 4: that I've involved in about seventy one homicides. I have

938
00:54:04,062 --> 00:54:07,862
Speaker 4: retained a library with photographs at my age of eighty

939
00:54:07,902 --> 00:54:10,742
Speaker 4: five coming up. I've got to think work I do

940
00:54:10,862 --> 00:54:12,182
Speaker 4: with them leaves them.

941
00:54:12,142 --> 00:54:15,182
Speaker 1: Lying around the some poor soul to find.

942
00:54:16,342 --> 00:54:20,702
Speaker 4: I think the Police Historical Society might be the place

943
00:54:20,742 --> 00:54:22,422
Speaker 4: for them to go and then make it a sorry.

944
00:54:22,462 --> 00:54:25,862
Speaker 4: Whether they want to shred them, burn them or hang

945
00:54:25,902 --> 00:54:29,142
Speaker 4: on to them, but they are of historical value. If

946
00:54:29,142 --> 00:54:31,182
Speaker 4: you've got a crime scene nine like mine.

947
00:54:31,222 --> 00:54:36,382
Speaker 1: You know, Alan, why don't you think more Australians know

948
00:54:36,622 --> 00:54:40,062
Speaker 1: about these murders about Buffalomew? He seems to have kind

949
00:54:40,102 --> 00:54:42,102
Speaker 1: of slipped through the cracks in terms of you know,

950
00:54:42,142 --> 00:54:43,942
Speaker 1: we all know who Ivan Malatt is, we all know

951
00:54:44,022 --> 00:54:46,822
Speaker 1: all these murderers through time, but I don't think many

952
00:54:46,862 --> 00:54:49,742
Speaker 1: people know Clifford Buffalomew's name or Clifford Palmer.

953
00:54:51,182 --> 00:54:55,702
Speaker 4: No, it's I mean it's come up over the years.

954
00:54:56,502 --> 00:54:59,302
Speaker 4: Well it's fifty four years since the murder. It's come up.

955
00:54:59,982 --> 00:55:04,982
Speaker 4: I've been contracted a few times over the years. But

956
00:55:05,062 --> 00:55:08,182
Speaker 4: I mean, you've got to compare this with the other

957
00:55:08,262 --> 00:55:12,182
Speaker 4: murders that have occurred in South which are horrendous as well,

958
00:55:12,382 --> 00:55:18,262
Speaker 4: and in the state, and they compete the stories from overseas.

959
00:55:18,702 --> 00:55:24,502
Speaker 4: But I think people should remo be reminded from time

960
00:55:24,542 --> 00:55:28,102
Speaker 4: to time about what can happen in this in our

961
00:55:28,182 --> 00:55:32,942
Speaker 4: state and our city country towns, and to be mindful

962
00:55:33,222 --> 00:55:35,982
Speaker 4: of people with whom you communicate with.

963
00:55:40,822 --> 00:55:44,342
Speaker 1: Craig, We've heard from former detective Allen Arthur. But to close,

964
00:55:44,462 --> 00:55:47,102
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you, do you think that someone

965
00:55:47,142 --> 00:55:52,382
Speaker 1: could reinvent themselves to this extent today? Say they committed

966
00:55:52,422 --> 00:55:55,902
Speaker 1: a crime, they're given a new identity, could they get

967
00:55:55,902 --> 00:55:57,422
Speaker 1: away with it in twenty twenty five.

968
00:55:58,982 --> 00:56:01,982
Speaker 2: Not if they committed a crime like this, Absolutely not,

969
00:56:02,622 --> 00:56:06,462
Speaker 2: that's the difference. Yes, if you've committed even a small

970
00:56:06,542 --> 00:56:11,102
Speaker 2: leader that's not publicized, maybe you could reinvent yourself, become

971
00:56:11,102 --> 00:56:13,662
Speaker 2: a different person and there's no real trace of what

972
00:56:13,702 --> 00:56:17,902
Speaker 2: you've done. But the murder of this magnitude, no way.

973
00:56:17,942 --> 00:56:22,262
Speaker 2: The publicity would be enormous today. Wherever you went, you'd

974
00:56:22,262 --> 00:56:23,742
Speaker 2: be found, you'd have to leave the country.

975
00:56:23,782 --> 00:56:27,302
Speaker 1: I think I would argue that even if you committed

976
00:56:27,422 --> 00:56:30,982
Speaker 1: murder and it wasn't overly publicized, we now have access

977
00:56:31,062 --> 00:56:34,262
Speaker 1: to the databases. The criminal database is the court databases,

978
00:56:34,342 --> 00:56:37,422
Speaker 1: so we can google people's names. We can find things

979
00:56:37,422 --> 00:56:39,622
Speaker 1: out on social media that we couldn't back then.

980
00:56:40,582 --> 00:56:42,982
Speaker 2: Quite true, you had to go to a public library

981
00:56:42,982 --> 00:56:45,782
Speaker 2: and so it's through dusty documents. If you're lucky to

982
00:56:45,822 --> 00:56:49,102
Speaker 2: find anything back then, you were a little hope. So yes,

983
00:56:49,142 --> 00:56:51,582
Speaker 2: we have for incredible access these days. I don't think

984
00:56:51,582 --> 00:56:52,382
Speaker 2: it'd be possible.

985
00:56:58,982 --> 00:57:01,102
Speaker 1: Thanks to Craig and Alan for helping us to tell

986
00:57:01,182 --> 00:57:04,102
Speaker 1: this story. If you couldn't turn off this episode and

987
00:57:04,222 --> 00:57:07,462
Speaker 1: liked hearing from two voices, let us know. Send us

988
00:57:07,462 --> 00:57:09,902
Speaker 1: an email at true Crime at mamma Mia dot com

989
00:57:09,942 --> 00:57:12,342
Speaker 1: dot au, or use the link in our show notes

990
00:57:12,382 --> 00:57:15,382
Speaker 1: to send us a voice note. True Crime Conversations is

991
00:57:15,422 --> 00:57:18,102
Speaker 1: a mum of mea podcast hosted and produced by me

992
00:57:18,302 --> 00:57:22,302
Speaker 1: Jemma Bath and Talie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.

993
00:57:22,902 --> 00:57:25,542
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

994
00:57:25,822 --> 00:57:27,502
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation.