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Speaker 1: True crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters.

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Speaker 1: That this podcast was recorded.

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Speaker 2: On It's October two thousand and three. A newlyweds, Gabe

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Speaker 2: and Tina Watson are a board a thirty meter catamaran

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Speaker 2: enjoying the raw beauty of Australia's Great Barrier Reef. They've

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Speaker 2: only been married eleven days after a whirlwind six month engagement,

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Speaker 2: and their honeymoon to the turquoise waters of Queensland has

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Speaker 2: been planned around the perfect diving conditions for him and

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Speaker 2: the nesting schedule of the green sea turtles for her.

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Speaker 2: The couple from Birmingham, Alabama are just two of twenty

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Speaker 2: five people readying to explore the SS Yongala, Australia's largest

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Speaker 2: and most intact historic shipwreck. After some toast and cereal

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Speaker 2: for breakfast, the group is briefed at eight thirty am

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Speaker 2: about the day ahead. They run through safety procedures, weather

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Speaker 2: and current conditions, and the intricacies of the difficult dive ahead.

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Speaker 2: By ten thirty am they're in the water, but within

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Speaker 2: ten minutes Tina Watson emerges without a pulse. Despite desperate

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Speaker 2: efforts back on deck, she can't be revived. At first,

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Speaker 2: it's assumed to be a horrible accident, but over the

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Speaker 2: course of years, questions are asked, suspicions are raised, and

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Speaker 2: lies start to unravel because the multiple differing versions of

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Speaker 2: what her husband says happened underwater simply don't make sense.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, a

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Speaker 2: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to

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Speaker 2: the people who know the most about them. From the

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Speaker 2: moment Tina Watson's body was returned to the surface of

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Speaker 2: the water by dive master Wade Singleton, Gabe was acting

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Speaker 2: in a way that those around him thought was odd.

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Speaker 2: Head surfaced closer to a differ boat to them, and

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Speaker 2: while others tried desperately to resuscitate his wife, he made

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Speaker 2: no effort to join her, be by her side, or

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Speaker 2: help in any way. Others remarked that heck, they would

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Speaker 2: have jumped in the ocean and swam to her side

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Speaker 2: immediately had it been their spouse. They noted that he

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Speaker 2: kept wanting to tell people his version of events, a

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Speaker 2: story that his fellow experienced divers immediately thought sounded wrong.

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Speaker 2: It couldn't have happened like that there was no way,

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Speaker 2: they said, but their suspicions and gut feelings weren't properly examined.

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Speaker 2: For many years, gay Botson went back home to America,

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Speaker 2: organized a funeral, found himself estranged from Tina's loved ones

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Speaker 2: over a series of bizarre and hurtful events, and eventually remarried,

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Speaker 2: all before he found himself facing murder charges in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and eight, five years after Tina's death. This is

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Speaker 2: a story that captured global news headlines as Internet's booths

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Speaker 2: and media commentators all descended on the story with their

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Speaker 2: views and opinions.

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Speaker 3: Did he do it?

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Speaker 2: Or didn't he? Lindsay Simpson has researched this story extensively

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Speaker 2: and is the co author of Honeymoon Dive with Jennifer Cook.

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Speaker 2: Lindsay joins me. Now, Lindsay, euroit Sunday's local. You're an author,

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Speaker 2: but you also work in tourism, so you and your

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Speaker 2: husband run sailing boats. The story we're about to tell

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Speaker 2: attracted global headlines. It was everywhere for many, many years.

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Speaker 2: What made you want to write about it in depth

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Speaker 2: and kind of put more of a spotlight on it?

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Speaker 2: On your kind of slice of the world.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's an interesting question, Jemma, because I was living

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Speaker 4: on Magnetic Island and at the time this was all unfolding,

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Speaker 4: which for people who don't know is probably to me.

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Speaker 4: I'm not good with distances, but it might be an

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Speaker 4: hour or two to the wreck by boat to the

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Speaker 4: young Gala that they were Tina and Gabe were diving on.

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Speaker 4: And the more I read about it, and as you said,

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Speaker 4: the headlines were just staring me in the face. I'm

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Speaker 4: a true crime writer, but I thought, this is just

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Speaker 4: in my backyard. This is so much about what we do.

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Speaker 4: We don't do diving, but it's happened. And Jenny Cook,

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Speaker 4: who was an old friend of mine from the Sydney

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Speaker 4: Morning Herald, she lived in the States, and I thought, hey,

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Speaker 4: she could maybe look at the American side of it.

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Speaker 4: And I've got everything here. I was able to access

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Speaker 4: the court records through a certain source in Townsville, because

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Speaker 4: of course the court case was in Townsville, which was

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Speaker 4: only eleven kilometers across the water from Magnetic Island, and

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Speaker 4: I went to work there every day to James Cork University.

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Speaker 4: So yes, it was all fairly obvious. It was like

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Speaker 4: a story knocking on my door saying come on, you've

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Speaker 4: got to And lecturing is one thing, but I was

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Speaker 4: really itching to be honest, to get back into storytelling

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Speaker 4: and interviewing and all the exciting things that makes me

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Speaker 4: like being a journalist.

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Speaker 2: Well, like you kind of alluded to, this story actually

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Speaker 2: starts in America, in Alabama, which is a landlocked city.

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Speaker 2: There's no ocean around it. How popular is diving as

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Speaker 2: a pastime over there?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think maybe because it's landlocked. People see you,

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Speaker 4: diving is an exotic thing to do. And when you

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Speaker 4: look at Gabe Watson had a fairly boring job and

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Speaker 4: his business, the family business was packaging and bubble wrapping,

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Speaker 4: and I guess for him diving was something that represented

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Speaker 4: something exotic, as I said, but also something he could

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Speaker 4: learn and go and rise up through the ranks of

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Speaker 4: learning how to dive. So I think it was just

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Speaker 4: because it probably was landlocked, but that's the word places

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Speaker 4: you could dive. And we ended up going to the

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Speaker 4: very place where Tina and him had learned and got

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Speaker 4: their diving certificates, which was a quarry, so there certainly

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Speaker 4: wasn't any ocean to dive.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a bit more about Gabe's experience because he

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Speaker 2: kind of walked past a dive shop at twenty one

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Speaker 2: and then was obsessed.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. I think the fact that he had

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Speaker 4: his mate with him, it was something they could do together.

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Speaker 4: But the other aspect was and I'm not entirely sure

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Speaker 4: when he'd learned about this other dive in the British

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Speaker 4: Virgin Islands where a death had occurred. And I guess

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Speaker 4: you know he is at the moment. Of course, he's

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Speaker 4: a free man. He's being found that there's no case

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Speaker 4: against him in America anyway.

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Speaker 2: But he started diving long before he met Tina. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he was quite experienced by the time he met Tina,

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Speaker 2: wasn't he.

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Speaker 4: Right, So that's why I was thinking that he started

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Speaker 4: learning how to dive, and then because he knew so much,

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Speaker 4: and he was even a rescue diver, and that requires

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Speaker 4: a lot of extra training. That's not just having fun

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Speaker 4: and looking at coral.

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Speaker 2: So he was a rescue diver. So that's basically you know,

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Speaker 2: could he have been an instructor? Was he that level

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Speaker 2: of qualified?

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Speaker 4: That's one below the instructor level, but it certainly means

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Speaker 4: that you know, when somebody starts panicking down below. And

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Speaker 4: let's not forget that this entire instant was something like

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Speaker 4: fifteen meters down. It was not that that deep. It

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Speaker 4: certainly means when somebody panics that you know what to do,

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Speaker 4: and things like that person panicking and thrashing and trying

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Speaker 4: to grab you know, the sorts of things we do

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Speaker 4: when we lose it. And Tina was very nervous. You

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Speaker 4: certainly would know what to do. You have a second regulator,

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Speaker 4: and you have a second way of breathing, and they

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Speaker 4: call it the I think it's called the which is

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Speaker 4: the other way of having a second source of air,

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Speaker 4: and that he would have known. As a rescue diver,

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Speaker 4: he would have understood what all that was about.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring in Tina here, because you know, we've got

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Speaker 2: Gabe who is a young man in Alabama. He's working

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Speaker 2: at his parents' business diving on the side. What was

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Speaker 2: Tina doing with herself before she met Gabe? And can

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Speaker 2: you tell us a.

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Speaker 3: Little bit about her health struggles?

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, she was always exhausted and they discovered I

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Speaker 4: think in her teens that there was a reason for that,

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Speaker 4: and it was a arrhythmic heart condition and she had

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Speaker 4: had surgery, so there was recognition by the parents that

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Speaker 4: something had to be done because she was getting out

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Speaker 4: of breath and really struggling. So she had that all

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Speaker 4: fixed before the dive, and what her life was like.

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Speaker 4: I know her favorite book was Gone with the Wind,

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Speaker 4: and the whole Alabama Princess thing of needing to find

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Speaker 4: a husband we discovered. I think there was a lot

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Speaker 4: of pressure on her actually, even from the family. All

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Speaker 4: the girlfriends were getting married to find mister Wright. And

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Speaker 4: I think from her perspective, Gabe happened to come along

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Speaker 4: at a time when she'd broken up with someone and

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Speaker 4: he actually went and got her this purse a Kate Spade.

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Speaker 4: I think it was purse that the other boyfriend hadn't

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Speaker 4: bothered bringing back, so he went and got it for her,

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Speaker 4: and that impressed her. But from the outset there was

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Speaker 4: red flags because there was a lot of the family

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Speaker 4: were looking at him saying, why are you with someone

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Speaker 4: like that? And there was a whole lot of incidents

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Speaker 4: leading up to this whole dive on the Great Barrier

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Speaker 4: Reef that were very strange.

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Speaker 2: But during their relationship, she found out that he was planning.

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Speaker 3: To propose to her or had a ring.

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Speaker 2: He kind of held that over her, which became a

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Speaker 2: big theme in their relationship. Can you explain that to us?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, that was probably the strangest thing because when

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Speaker 4: she came back home one day, the flat was all tidy,

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Speaker 4: and she saw when they were unpacking the grocery, she

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Speaker 4: saw this little box with the jewelry that had obviously

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Speaker 4: the name of the jewelers on it. And she had

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Speaker 4: been waiting for him to propose, so she saw that

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Speaker 4: there and thought, oh, you know, it's finally happening. And

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Speaker 4: he basically said to her, if you go anywhere near

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Speaker 4: that or open it, it's nothing's going to happen. So

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Speaker 4: at first she sort of thought, oh, he's waiting for

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Speaker 4: the right time. It's going to be romantic, which is

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Speaker 4: odd because that people, i mean men might think that

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Speaker 4: that they're going to propose an romantic question, but they

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Speaker 4: don't put the ring out and the show and then

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Speaker 4: say you can't have it. Eventually, she told the family,

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Speaker 4: she told her best friend, and they were all saying

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Speaker 4: to her, but that's not okay, Like, why would someone

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Speaker 4: do that? And you know, milestones had passed her birthday,

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Speaker 4: all these things would happen and she'd think it's going

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Speaker 4: to happen now, It's going to happen now, and it

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Speaker 4: didn't happen. And then he even went to Tommy. Tommy Thomas,

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Speaker 4: her father, was an amazing man. He did so much

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Speaker 4: to try and get the information and answers about his

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Speaker 4: daughter's death. He went to him and said, can I

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Speaker 4: ask for her hand in marriage? And Tommy was scratching

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Speaker 4: his head because there was already things coming out that

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Speaker 4: he wasn't happy with me. He said, well, do you

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Speaker 4: love Tina? And Gabe sort of didn't give an answer

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Speaker 4: to that. He said, that's pretty corny, wasn't it to

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Speaker 4: ask me that? And he said, oh, we're right together?

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Speaker 4: But Tommy said, but no, I'm asking you do you

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Speaker 4: love her? And Gabe's answer was very ambiguous.

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Speaker 2: To say that it's corny. It's just such a bizarre

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Speaker 2: thing to say yes.

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Speaker 4: So much of what he said in interviews, records of interviews,

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Speaker 4: things that we read was bizarre.

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Speaker 3: Did Tina love him?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's an interesting question because she did keep saying

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Speaker 4: to her girlfriend's isn't he handsome? And personally I don't

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Speaker 4: know how she could have thought that he wasn't particularly

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Speaker 4: a handsome guy. He was very socially awkward. I think

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Speaker 4: what happened was he came at the right time of

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Speaker 4: her being twenty six, feeling she was left on the shelf,

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Speaker 4: and then fixating on this idea that they would get married.

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Speaker 4: She did go back to an earlier boyfriend, not really

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Speaker 4: a boyfriend, but an old friend from the past that

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Speaker 4: she got on with and tried to basically have a

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Speaker 4: date with him, and Gabe found out and was furious.

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Speaker 4: And this was when the ring still hadn't been given

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Speaker 4: to her, so she'd obviously got sick of waiting, but

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Speaker 4: he had some control over her.

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Speaker 2: Well. He ended up proposing, not in any kind of

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Speaker 2: huge dramatic way. He just kind of.

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Speaker 3: Asked her at their house.

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Speaker 2: On a random day, and then everything He wanted everything

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Speaker 2: to move really quickly after having everything moved so slowly,

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Speaker 2: so he kind of was like, right, well, we need

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Speaker 2: to get married within six months. So suddenly everything speeds.

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Speaker 4: Up exactly, which is not what she wanted at all,

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Speaker 4: because the whole wedding, you know, there are some women

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Speaker 4: who the wedding is the most important thing, and she

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Speaker 4: wanted to plan and suddenly, yeah, suddenly, but not only

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Speaker 4: the wedding. She had to learn how to dive.

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Speaker 2: Why why did she have to learn how to dive?

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Speaker 4: Well, he told the father Tommy that she had to

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Speaker 4: learn to dive because he did things that she liked. Therefore,

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Speaker 4: it was almost like a contract. So if she's going

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Speaker 4: to marry me, she has to learn how to scuba dive.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't you know it would be great if she

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Speaker 4: loved diving like I do. Or maybe I'll tagra and

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Speaker 4: dive and see what she thinks she will be doing

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Speaker 4: that he told Tommy.

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Speaker 2: Well, reading the conversations between the two in your book,

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Speaker 2: it kind of felt like he was more focused on

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Speaker 2: planning the honeymoon, which he wanted to be in Australia

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Speaker 2: at a really famous dive spot, rather than planning the wedding,

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Speaker 2: like it was all planned around diving conditions exactly.

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Speaker 4: And the turtles, the green turtles are nesting in October,

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Speaker 4: and he knew that would be a draw card for

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Speaker 4: her because she loved nemo and turtles. So yes, that's right.

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Speaker 4: Everything had to be rushed through, and again she wasn't

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Speaker 4: given an option. And there's also some nasty incidents in

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Speaker 4: that earlier time where he threw a pizza at her

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Speaker 4: in a restaurant when she was there, I think with

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Speaker 4: her sister or a best friend, and you know, they'd

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Speaker 4: arrived a little bit late, and he was sitting there

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Speaker 4: in a foul mood and was quite grumpy, and she

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Speaker 4: tried to put it off that he had sign his headaches,

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Speaker 4: but then he literally got up in the restaurant, chucked

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Speaker 4: the pizza at her and left. You know, that's there's

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Speaker 4: stuff like that that This is the betroth. This is

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Speaker 4: someone who's you know, you're going to spend the rest

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Speaker 4: of your life with. I mean that would be that

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Speaker 4: would be a definite finishing of the relationship for most women.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how did the wedding go? Was it a nice day?

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Speaker 2: Did the families get on?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I think their wedding went quite well, and they

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Speaker 4: had all the photos. I think it was what she wanted.

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Speaker 4: But she had to then get ready to go overseas

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Speaker 4: very quickly after that and get the passport and all

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Speaker 4: of the things that went on, and she had to

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Speaker 4: finish her diving certificate, so she we went back to

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Speaker 4: that quarry where she learnt to dive. Jenny and I

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Speaker 4: and neither of us knew how to dive, and we

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Speaker 4: kind of went into that whole experience of what she

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Speaker 4: would have gone through all while she was getting the

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Speaker 4: wedding ready and getting to go overseas, and I don't

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Speaker 4: think she'd been overseas before, so it was all a

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Speaker 4: very big deal. And we went into that quarry with

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Speaker 4: dive instructor who actually took her through the steps of

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Speaker 4: what to do and described how she panicked. I think

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Speaker 4: it was ten meters down and we were able to

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Speaker 4: really feel this pressure. And I still remember him saying

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Speaker 4: when he said to her, you shouldn't be diving. You're

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Speaker 4: not able to do this. You're really the most panic

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Speaker 4: diver I've ever seen. And she said, well, there was

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Speaker 4: a reason for that, and she pointed up to the

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Speaker 4: top of the quarry and Gabe Watson of his arms folded,

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Speaker 4: looking down at her like you had. And he's specifically

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Speaker 4: been told not to come to the quarry what she

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Speaker 4: was learning, because they don't like relatives coming because it's

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Speaker 4: a lot of pressure on the person learning to dive,

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Speaker 4: and he was there to make sure she passed the certificate.

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Speaker 2: She ended up getting qualified, but she wasn't what you

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Speaker 2: would call experienced by the time she left for Australia.

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Speaker 4: Not at all. In fact, I was trying to find

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Speaker 4: out and trying to remember. I don't think she'd even

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Speaker 4: done an ocean dive. There's been reports that she had,

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Speaker 4: but I think it was only in the swimming pool

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Speaker 4: because I had a swimming pool and a quarry. The

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Speaker 4: quarry was this murky, horrible place with cars lying in

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Speaker 4: the pot.

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Speaker 2: But sounds terrifying for a non diver like me, really.

301
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Speaker 4: Grows and you know, taking that mask off, I mean

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Speaker 4: I never died before I went to that quarry, taking

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Speaker 4: the mask off and trying to you know, not panic

304
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Speaker 4: underwater and then put it know that your ear is okay.

305
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Speaker 4: That's when she really lost it. I think that her

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Speaker 4: diving experience was just there, and so really when they

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Speaker 4: went round I don't know, jumping into the gun, but

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Speaker 4: when they were on the boat and she was asked

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Speaker 4: about how many dives she'd done, she was very experienced.

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Speaker 2: So they left for their honeymoon pretty much, you know,

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Speaker 2: straight after their wedding. They stayed in Sydney for about

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Speaker 2: a week. They make their way to Townsville and then

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Speaker 2: they board this dive vessel which has twenty five other

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Speaker 2: people on board. Can you tell us about what.

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Speaker 3: The trip was?

316
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Speaker 2: This was all. This is a very famous dive site

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Speaker 2: in Australia that people travel all over the world to

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Speaker 2: come to and it's considered a red dive, which means

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Speaker 2: it's on the harder side.

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Speaker 4: That's right. The Young Gala was known as Australia's Titanic.

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Speaker 4: In fact, there's a museum, amazing museum in towns, like

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Speaker 4: one of these perfect little regional museums that you go

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Speaker 4: in that's got all the details of everything because there

324
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Speaker 4: were one hundred and twenty one people on that ship

325
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Speaker 4: that's sunk in a cyclone. Actually, funny enough, on our boat,

326
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Speaker 4: we took the people who were going to board that

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Speaker 4: boat on and didn't make it. Their relatives all those

328
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Speaker 4: years ago and they commemorated every significant anniversary. So yeah,

329
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Speaker 4: it was a big deal. It sunk, and it's about

330
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Speaker 4: three hundred feet or certain meetings. Anyway, it's a big

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Speaker 4: steel boat and it had fallen sideways on the starboard

332
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Speaker 4: side and it presented this amazing opportunity for a dive.

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Speaker 4: So people, yes, came from everywhere and Gabe Watson had

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00:19:50,952 --> 00:19:54,351
Speaker 4: heard about it and yet there's a lot of people

335
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Speaker 4: leaving from air which is regional town here from Townsville,

336
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Speaker 4: and they go out to to this wreck and dive,

337
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Speaker 4: but it is a difficult dive because of currents. It's

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Speaker 4: kind of about in the middle of nowhere. One hundred

339
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Speaker 4: and twenty one people are still on board that drowned

340
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Speaker 4: really a racehorse off the deck. So yes, it was

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Speaker 4: a very big disaster. And when after they left Mackay

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Speaker 4: which is where they steamed out of and hit the cyclone,

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Speaker 4: the Marconi wireless had just arrived and they left just

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Speaker 4: before this harless came in, so they could have had

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Speaker 4: contact with them and said come back, but unfortunately that

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Speaker 4: didn't happen and they all drowned.

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Speaker 2: From the very start of that kind of expedition of

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Speaker 2: this group of passengers that included Tina and Gabe, the

349
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Speaker 2: other people on board were noticing a bit of weirdness,

350
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Speaker 2: weren't they.

351
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Speaker 4: They were again his social awkwardness, the fact that he

352
00:20:55,712 --> 00:20:59,671
Speaker 4: didn't seem at ease. They noticed that Tina was incredibly bubbly,

353
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Speaker 4: which she was chatting to everybody. There was another honeymoon

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Speaker 4: couple on board and they'd got married at similar time,

355
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Speaker 4: so you know they had something in common with them.

356
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Speaker 4: But yes, there was I suppose right before the dive.

357
00:21:15,512 --> 00:21:18,752
Speaker 4: I don't think there was too much weirdness noted other

358
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Speaker 4: than the fact that you know, he was a bit uncommunicative.

359
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Speaker 4: It was just after they went down that things started

360
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Speaker 4: not quite adding up.

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Speaker 2: How does a trip like this work, because you've got

362
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Speaker 2: a mix of experiences and I'm assuming that there are

363
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Speaker 2: very detailed briefings, explanations, you do safety things. What does

364
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Speaker 2: it look like before you actually even get into the water.

365
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Speaker 4: Yes, there is a lot of mucking around because yeah, exactly,

366
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Speaker 4: there's so many workplace health and safety. They have a

367
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Speaker 4: number of obviously regulations that you have to go through,

368
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Speaker 4: and there's a lot of checking things off and signing

369
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Speaker 4: things and checking gear and having a dive body. So

370
00:22:06,351 --> 00:22:09,831
Speaker 4: territory of the dive. Some of those people on board

371
00:22:09,831 --> 00:22:12,711
Speaker 4: were still jet lagged. You know, typically they'd fly all

372
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Speaker 4: the way across the world just to come and do

373
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Speaker 4: this dive and then they might just go home. Actually,

374
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Speaker 4: in Tina and Gabe's case, they went via Sydney, went

375
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Speaker 4: to Rongazoo and did other things. But yes, there's a

376
00:22:23,792 --> 00:22:27,391
Speaker 4: lot of work going into making sure like checking the

377
00:22:27,472 --> 00:22:33,552
Speaker 4: air and the tanks, you checking the BC on properly. Yeah,

378
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Speaker 4: so that was all going on that morning.

379
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Speaker 2: And interestingly some of the other experienced divers said it

380
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Speaker 2: was some of the best briefings they'd ever encountered.

381
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Speaker 4: That's right. So Wade Singleton was the one who was briefing,

382
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Speaker 4: and he did. He felt incredibly bad about later what

383
00:22:50,552 --> 00:22:54,752
Speaker 4: had happened, but certainly his briefing was excellent. The problem

384
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Speaker 4: was that, and I think there was a charge laid later,

385
00:22:59,752 --> 00:23:02,792
Speaker 4: was that she was sitting there, she'd only dived in

386
00:23:02,831 --> 00:23:07,191
Speaker 4: a quarry. She was petrified, which they didn't necessarily no,

387
00:23:07,351 --> 00:23:11,711
Speaker 4: and interestingly she never told anyone that there was no evidence.

388
00:23:11,871 --> 00:23:14,431
Speaker 4: I mean she was terrified in the quarry only a

389
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Speaker 4: few meters down. How do you think she felt leaping

390
00:23:17,871 --> 00:23:22,192
Speaker 4: into this ocean with fast currents and just not having

391
00:23:22,232 --> 00:23:26,672
Speaker 4: the experience, and probably, like I am, claustrophobic, she definitely

392
00:23:26,752 --> 00:23:30,471
Speaker 4: didn't have a good reaction. So yes, the thing that

393
00:23:30,591 --> 00:23:33,431
Speaker 4: actually happened was that she was asked if she wanted

394
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Speaker 4: or told she should have an orientation dive, which is

395
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Speaker 4: what beginning divers do, and she would have then been

396
00:23:40,472 --> 00:23:44,272
Speaker 4: accompanied by Wade Singleton or a number of other people

397
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Speaker 4: who were just standing around that that was mentioned several times.

398
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Speaker 4: All these people would rather be doing this than cleaning

399
00:23:49,911 --> 00:23:53,192
Speaker 4: the toilets taking you for a dive. So she had

400
00:23:53,272 --> 00:23:57,032
Speaker 4: ample opportunity to say, I'm really terrified and I'm like

401
00:23:57,071 --> 00:24:01,871
Speaker 4: an orientation dive. But he stepped in and said, oh,

402
00:24:01,952 --> 00:24:04,792
Speaker 4: she doesn't need that. She's got me. I'm a rescue diver.

403
00:24:05,272 --> 00:24:05,951
Speaker 4: We are fine.

404
00:24:06,871 --> 00:24:10,671
Speaker 2: How did that first dive start, because there was a

405
00:24:10,712 --> 00:24:14,432
Speaker 2: bit of fuffing about with Gabe and Tina even getting.

406
00:24:14,151 --> 00:24:19,752
Speaker 4: Underwater exactly there was straight Well. The weird thing about

407
00:24:19,752 --> 00:24:23,951
Speaker 4: that was they aborted the dive. There went out, There

408
00:24:23,992 --> 00:24:25,911
Speaker 4: seemed to be a lot of fiddle faddling around. They

409
00:24:25,952 --> 00:24:28,311
Speaker 4: got i think one of the last boats, the little

410
00:24:28,391 --> 00:24:30,792
Speaker 4: tenders that leave to take them out to where they're

411
00:24:30,831 --> 00:24:35,272
Speaker 4: going to dive, and they came back because Gabe's battery

412
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Speaker 4: was supposedly upside down inside his dive watch, but that

413
00:24:41,712 --> 00:24:45,872
Speaker 4: had happened in Alabama before they left, and Tina had

414
00:24:45,911 --> 00:24:48,391
Speaker 4: already taken it to the place he bought it. That

415
00:24:48,512 --> 00:24:50,432
Speaker 4: was one of the jobs she was given by Gabe,

416
00:24:50,871 --> 00:24:54,471
Speaker 4: and it was about the battery, not working and it

417
00:24:54,512 --> 00:24:56,591
Speaker 4: was upside down. They said they found it in the

418
00:24:56,631 --> 00:24:59,351
Speaker 4: shop that was upside down, was way before the dive,

419
00:24:59,472 --> 00:25:01,711
Speaker 4: and then lo and behold, the morning of the dive,

420
00:25:01,871 --> 00:25:06,032
Speaker 4: he puts the batteries in upside down again, which was

421
00:25:06,151 --> 00:25:08,552
Speaker 4: very weird. So they came to the surface. He said,

422
00:25:08,591 --> 00:25:10,232
Speaker 4: my dive computer's not working.

423
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Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass.

424
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Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Lindsey Simpson, co author of Honeymoon Dive.

425
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Speaker 2: Up next, Lindsay describes the moment a fellow diver saw

426
00:25:25,591 --> 00:25:30,071
Speaker 2: Tina struggling underwater, a witness report that would become crucial

427
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Speaker 2: in years to come. They eventually start their dive and

428
00:25:38,831 --> 00:25:43,831
Speaker 2: about five or so minutes in, a fellow diver witnesses

429
00:25:43,871 --> 00:25:47,712
Speaker 2: something underwater. Can you tell us about what he saw?

430
00:25:47,911 --> 00:25:50,991
Speaker 2: That diver was also a doctor, so he was a

431
00:25:51,071 --> 00:25:54,871
Speaker 2: very experienced person in both diving and medical situations. What

432
00:25:54,952 --> 00:25:56,071
Speaker 2: did he see underwater?

433
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Speaker 4: So he was an emergency doctor and you couldn't get

434
00:25:59,992 --> 00:26:03,032
Speaker 4: a better, in my view, expert witness than that, because

435
00:26:03,071 --> 00:26:07,991
Speaker 4: he saw what he saw was this person lying on

436
00:26:08,111 --> 00:26:12,792
Speaker 4: her back and he said, already exhibiting signs that she

437
00:26:13,151 --> 00:26:17,231
Speaker 4: was dying. She was still alive, but her limbs were

438
00:26:17,272 --> 00:26:23,351
Speaker 4: all splayed out and she was just steering upwards. So

439
00:26:23,391 --> 00:26:26,071
Speaker 4: at first he thought he was seeing things. This other

440
00:26:26,111 --> 00:26:29,711
Speaker 4: bog I mentioned before was coming from Magnetic Island and

441
00:26:29,952 --> 00:26:34,311
Speaker 4: just moored exactly where they were, and the divers were

442
00:26:34,311 --> 00:26:37,831
Speaker 4: coming down the rope when they looked over, and this

443
00:26:37,952 --> 00:26:42,871
Speaker 4: doctor saw this blonde girl lying backwards, and he was

444
00:26:42,992 --> 00:26:48,232
Speaker 4: quite concerned. He didn't know what was going on. So, yes,

445
00:26:48,311 --> 00:26:51,071
Speaker 4: that was the first thing that anyone recorded as seeing

446
00:26:51,911 --> 00:26:52,712
Speaker 4: what was happening.

447
00:26:53,391 --> 00:26:57,352
Speaker 2: Was it that same doctor that saw what he described

448
00:26:57,391 --> 00:26:59,032
Speaker 2: as a bear hug between the.

449
00:26:58,992 --> 00:27:03,391
Speaker 4: Two, Yes, he did see. Will that be hug? Was

450
00:27:03,431 --> 00:27:05,951
Speaker 4: interesting because I think and I think I'm right in

451
00:27:05,952 --> 00:27:10,032
Speaker 4: saying that, but he thought, Yes, the reason he didn't

452
00:27:10,071 --> 00:27:13,351
Speaker 4: immediately go to the girl's assistance was that he saw

453
00:27:13,391 --> 00:27:16,151
Speaker 4: this other diver and I think he was described as

454
00:27:16,192 --> 00:27:20,232
Speaker 4: a very big man, and Gabe Watson was six foot

455
00:27:20,272 --> 00:27:23,992
Speaker 4: seven or something like that, and he thought that she

456
00:27:24,591 --> 00:27:29,391
Speaker 4: was The doctor thought Gabe was helping her, so that's

457
00:27:29,431 --> 00:27:30,751
Speaker 4: why he hadn't done something.

458
00:27:31,792 --> 00:27:34,552
Speaker 2: And he saw her kind of bear hug her was

459
00:27:34,591 --> 00:27:37,232
Speaker 2: the way he described it, like, Yes, put his arms

460
00:27:37,272 --> 00:27:37,871
Speaker 2: around her.

461
00:27:38,351 --> 00:27:44,632
Speaker 4: Exactly put his arms around her, and he presumed that

462
00:27:44,631 --> 00:27:45,952
Speaker 4: that was him helping him.

463
00:27:46,272 --> 00:27:49,951
Speaker 2: What happened next in terms of how Tina came to

464
00:27:50,032 --> 00:27:54,712
Speaker 2: the surface, because it wasn't with Gabe, no, So.

465
00:27:56,351 --> 00:27:59,711
Speaker 4: I think the doctor then didn't realize that he hadn't

466
00:27:59,752 --> 00:28:03,751
Speaker 4: taken her up. But Wade Singleton, who was the fellow

467
00:28:03,871 --> 00:28:06,112
Speaker 4: briefing them all in the morning of the Great Briefing,

468
00:28:06,831 --> 00:28:10,831
Speaker 4: he then looked down and at first thought he were

469
00:28:10,871 --> 00:28:13,552
Speaker 4: seeing things and then realized that it was one of

470
00:28:13,552 --> 00:28:18,232
Speaker 4: the passengers. So anyway, Wade went down, got her from

471
00:28:18,472 --> 00:28:22,151
Speaker 4: and I think he took ninety two seconds a minute

472
00:28:22,192 --> 00:28:25,071
Speaker 4: and a half to get to the surface with her.

473
00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:30,831
Speaker 2: Gabe kind of popped up separately three minutes apart from them.

474
00:28:30,911 --> 00:28:34,351
Speaker 2: So you've got Wade and Tina kind of appearing in

475
00:28:34,391 --> 00:28:37,751
Speaker 2: the surface, and you've got Gabe appearing not as close

476
00:28:38,192 --> 00:28:41,352
Speaker 2: on another side. They both end up on different boats.

477
00:28:42,072 --> 00:28:46,432
Speaker 2: It's got to Tina's boat first because what happens there

478
00:28:46,472 --> 00:28:48,232
Speaker 2: they basically try and rescue her.

479
00:28:49,072 --> 00:28:51,511
Speaker 4: Yes, so they took her onto the other boat, Jazz

480
00:28:51,552 --> 00:28:55,951
Speaker 4: to the one from Magnetic Island and basically straight away

481
00:28:56,112 --> 00:29:01,752
Speaker 4: tried doing everything they could to save her. But really

482
00:29:01,911 --> 00:29:05,752
Speaker 4: probably at that point what that door doctor Stutz had

483
00:29:05,832 --> 00:29:10,471
Speaker 4: seen water the emergency doctor had been correct that that

484
00:29:10,671 --> 00:29:15,312
Speaker 4: was her completely losing consciousness. So they worked on her

485
00:29:15,392 --> 00:29:19,271
Speaker 4: for quite some time, and they even use an epipenn

486
00:29:19,392 --> 00:29:22,152
Speaker 4: to try and get her to come round, and that

487
00:29:22,312 --> 00:29:25,751
Speaker 4: was obvious in the post bottum that that was another

488
00:29:27,032 --> 00:29:29,872
Speaker 4: Another one of the most obvious things on her body

489
00:29:29,911 --> 00:29:33,271
Speaker 4: when they examined her was the EpiPen going into her

490
00:29:33,312 --> 00:29:38,191
Speaker 4: neck and causing that swelling. But yes, she didn't couldn't

491
00:29:38,192 --> 00:29:41,992
Speaker 4: be revived. Nothing they did brought her back.

492
00:29:42,712 --> 00:29:48,392
Speaker 2: They spent forty one minutes trying to revive her. Where

493
00:29:48,431 --> 00:29:49,592
Speaker 2: was Gabe in all of.

494
00:29:49,552 --> 00:29:55,752
Speaker 4: This, Well, Gabe popped back onto Spoil Sport, and that

495
00:29:55,832 --> 00:29:58,792
Speaker 4: comment was made by at least one of the passengers

496
00:29:58,832 --> 00:30:01,471
Speaker 4: like if that was you over there, honey, I'd be

497
00:30:01,632 --> 00:30:04,511
Speaker 4: there with bells on, you know, working out what was

498
00:30:04,552 --> 00:30:07,991
Speaker 4: going on. How you were. He didn't go over to

499
00:30:08,312 --> 00:30:13,272
Speaker 4: Jazz too until basically she was pronounced dead by the doctor,

500
00:30:14,112 --> 00:30:17,431
Speaker 4: so that was quite some time. He was wandering around

501
00:30:17,472 --> 00:30:22,712
Speaker 4: Spoil Sports saying, oh, you know, something's happened to Tina,

502
00:30:22,792 --> 00:30:26,232
Speaker 4: and also, which I thought was interesting, telling every man

503
00:30:26,312 --> 00:30:30,592
Speaker 4: and his dog what he thought happened, including the chef.

504
00:30:30,792 --> 00:30:34,112
Speaker 4: He would just start blurting out, this happened, that happened.

505
00:30:34,671 --> 00:30:37,191
Speaker 4: So he was giving these versions already to a number

506
00:30:37,192 --> 00:30:37,711
Speaker 4: of people.

507
00:30:37,992 --> 00:30:41,072
Speaker 2: I know that Gabe had quite a few versions of events.

508
00:30:41,112 --> 00:30:44,592
Speaker 2: But what was his basic story that he was telling

509
00:30:44,632 --> 00:30:46,911
Speaker 2: people about what happened underwater?

510
00:30:47,952 --> 00:30:53,312
Speaker 4: Well, he was basically initially saying that she grabbed when

511
00:30:53,352 --> 00:30:55,912
Speaker 4: he went to try and help her, that they went

512
00:30:55,992 --> 00:31:00,192
Speaker 4: swimming off into the distance, and then she didn't seem

513
00:31:00,232 --> 00:31:03,752
Speaker 4: to be happy. He didn't really mention much initially about

514
00:31:03,792 --> 00:31:06,952
Speaker 4: any current, although he did say they had tried to swim,

515
00:31:07,431 --> 00:31:09,592
Speaker 4: and he said then he went towards her because he

516
00:31:09,671 --> 00:31:13,992
Speaker 4: realized that she wasn't happy that things were happening, and

517
00:31:14,032 --> 00:31:18,471
Speaker 4: she grabbed his regulator. Now that he did say that

518
00:31:18,671 --> 00:31:22,792
Speaker 4: consistently to just about everybody on Spoilsboard after he got

519
00:31:22,792 --> 00:31:26,152
Speaker 4: on board the boat they'd been on, and he said

520
00:31:26,192 --> 00:31:31,352
Speaker 4: that she grabbed his mask and took it off, and

521
00:31:31,431 --> 00:31:37,991
Speaker 4: he then the second breathing potentially way to breathe is that,

522
00:31:38,112 --> 00:31:41,552
Speaker 4: as I mentioned, that second supply through the second regulator,

523
00:31:41,911 --> 00:31:45,312
Speaker 4: which everyone has and every rescue diver is told to

524
00:31:45,552 --> 00:31:48,712
Speaker 4: use because when a person panics are out of control.

525
00:31:49,832 --> 00:31:53,512
Speaker 4: So if she was doing all those things that he alleged,

526
00:31:53,552 --> 00:31:56,352
Speaker 4: and let's not forget that nobody saw any of this,

527
00:31:57,192 --> 00:32:00,711
Speaker 4: then he should have given her his second AAR supply.

528
00:32:00,872 --> 00:32:03,552
Speaker 4: But what he says is he actually took that himself

529
00:32:03,671 --> 00:32:07,672
Speaker 4: because he thought he would be gone too. So somebody

530
00:32:07,752 --> 00:32:10,911
Speaker 4: like your wife is panicking underwater, you have a sort

531
00:32:10,952 --> 00:32:13,832
Speaker 4: of air supply you can give to her in addition

532
00:32:13,872 --> 00:32:16,872
Speaker 4: to the one you're using, even if she's grabbed the

533
00:32:16,872 --> 00:32:19,751
Speaker 4: one you're using. Even if that's all correct, he was

534
00:32:19,792 --> 00:32:22,312
Speaker 4: trained as a rescue diver to go behind for the

535
00:32:22,392 --> 00:32:26,392
Speaker 4: very reason that people start flailing and grabbing, go behind

536
00:32:26,392 --> 00:32:30,671
Speaker 4: where the tanks are and get a person under control.

537
00:32:30,752 --> 00:32:33,552
Speaker 4: So though not grabbing a new he didn't do any

538
00:32:33,592 --> 00:32:36,912
Speaker 4: of those things. So his versions were that he then

539
00:32:37,072 --> 00:32:40,152
Speaker 4: tried to find a secondary supply and then he put

540
00:32:40,272 --> 00:32:43,072
Speaker 4: that in and while he was doing that, she started falling,

541
00:32:44,112 --> 00:32:47,112
Speaker 4: and she was falling too quickly quote unquote for him

542
00:32:47,431 --> 00:32:50,231
Speaker 4: to go after her, and again remembering this is not

543
00:32:50,512 --> 00:32:51,272
Speaker 4: really deep.

544
00:32:51,112 --> 00:32:56,592
Speaker 2: Water, so he made the decision to instead follow her,

545
00:32:57,352 --> 00:32:59,951
Speaker 2: to head back up to the surface and in his words,

546
00:32:59,992 --> 00:33:00,592
Speaker 2: get help.

547
00:33:01,592 --> 00:33:05,192
Speaker 4: That's right, So he said at this stage he realized,

548
00:33:05,752 --> 00:33:08,792
Speaker 4: but you know, rescue diver also knows the critical time

549
00:33:08,872 --> 00:33:11,191
Speaker 4: to have actually got it to the surface was not

550
00:33:11,232 --> 00:33:15,032
Speaker 4: to watch her going further down, but to get her

551
00:33:15,152 --> 00:33:18,352
Speaker 4: up to the surface so she could breathe. So at

552
00:33:18,352 --> 00:33:24,191
Speaker 4: that stage she was falling quickly, and he didn't do

553
00:33:24,232 --> 00:33:27,911
Speaker 4: any of the things he'd been trained to do at all.

554
00:33:27,952 --> 00:33:30,552
Speaker 2: It wasn't just that he didn't do the things that

555
00:33:30,592 --> 00:33:33,392
Speaker 2: he'd been trained to do. A lot of the experienced

556
00:33:33,431 --> 00:33:37,432
Speaker 2: divers that he was telling this story too, they immediately

557
00:33:37,431 --> 00:33:41,431
Speaker 2: were like, well, that didn't happen. Why were they saying

558
00:33:41,431 --> 00:33:42,152
Speaker 2: stuff like that.

559
00:33:42,952 --> 00:33:45,592
Speaker 4: Well, some of the things he was saying to these two,

560
00:33:45,671 --> 00:33:50,512
Speaker 4: particularly American divers, who alerted Tommy Thomas, her father sometime later,

561
00:33:50,872 --> 00:33:53,592
Speaker 4: because remembering that when her parents first heard about all,

562
00:33:54,192 --> 00:33:56,632
Speaker 4: they thought a tragic diving accident, and that was what

563
00:33:56,671 --> 00:34:00,552
Speaker 4: everyone thought for some time, given the police notes. You know,

564
00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:04,791
Speaker 4: dear me, how tragic. So I think that what they

565
00:34:04,832 --> 00:34:07,551
Speaker 4: were saying to he was saying to them was I

566
00:34:07,552 --> 00:34:10,591
Speaker 4: couldn't get her because she was too heavy, And they

567
00:34:10,592 --> 00:34:14,072
Speaker 4: were saying, but you're not heavy underwater, you light, And

568
00:34:14,112 --> 00:34:16,312
Speaker 4: they were saying, and one of them actually said to him.

569
00:34:16,431 --> 00:34:18,471
Speaker 4: This is some of the first things he told them.

570
00:34:18,792 --> 00:34:23,272
Speaker 4: They said, to Gabe, that's bullshit, those words, and they said,

571
00:34:23,392 --> 00:34:26,752
Speaker 4: that's not right. So there was in the early stages

572
00:34:26,832 --> 00:34:29,551
Speaker 4: when he first got back on board after calling the

573
00:34:29,632 --> 00:34:34,591
Speaker 4: alarm and then Tina servicing with Wade Singleton being rescued.

574
00:34:35,471 --> 00:34:38,392
Speaker 4: The early stages, he was saying things that didn't make

575
00:34:38,471 --> 00:34:41,992
Speaker 4: any sense. They were experienced divers and they were calling

576
00:34:42,072 --> 00:34:46,432
Speaker 4: him out, and the women, their wives were talking about

577
00:34:46,431 --> 00:34:50,551
Speaker 4: how strange where he was reacting that there was things

578
00:34:50,592 --> 00:34:52,431
Speaker 4: that didn't add up, like he hadn't gone over to

579
00:34:52,471 --> 00:34:56,672
Speaker 4: the boat to be with her, that he seemed to

580
00:34:56,752 --> 00:35:01,032
Speaker 4: be I mean, he was playing cards on the way

581
00:35:01,752 --> 00:35:04,272
Speaker 4: back to Townsville when her body was lying in a

582
00:35:04,352 --> 00:35:07,832
Speaker 4: cabin fourteen on the boat. Very strange behavior.

583
00:35:08,672 --> 00:35:11,832
Speaker 2: He also made an announcement to everyone on the boat

584
00:35:11,872 --> 00:35:14,752
Speaker 2: home where he once again just used weird language, like

585
00:35:14,792 --> 00:35:17,231
Speaker 2: that kind of corny stuff he said with the dad,

586
00:35:17,272 --> 00:35:20,872
Speaker 2: he said, my wife died today. This just really sucks,

587
00:35:21,872 --> 00:35:23,152
Speaker 2: so just weirdness.

588
00:35:24,072 --> 00:35:29,432
Speaker 4: Everyone was so shocked. Yes, And the other strange things

589
00:35:29,471 --> 00:35:32,792
Speaker 4: he was doing was things like insisting in got his

590
00:35:32,911 --> 00:35:35,911
Speaker 4: dive computer back and he wanted a receipt and shouting

591
00:35:35,951 --> 00:35:39,951
Speaker 4: and yelling at the police because of course that's evidence exactly.

592
00:35:40,072 --> 00:35:42,872
Speaker 4: You know, wherever he said they went, it would have

593
00:35:42,872 --> 00:35:45,272
Speaker 4: been mapped on the dive computer because remember he did

594
00:35:45,312 --> 00:35:50,832
Speaker 4: go back up and finally get his batteries right. So yes,

595
00:35:50,951 --> 00:35:54,392
Speaker 4: there was the fact that he was playing cards and

596
00:35:54,431 --> 00:35:56,232
Speaker 4: then he said he wanted to stay on the boat.

597
00:35:56,312 --> 00:35:58,431
Speaker 4: He didn't want to get off the boat when they

598
00:35:58,471 --> 00:36:04,032
Speaker 4: got back to townsall, and they couldn't understand the reason for that. Yeah, nothing,

599
00:36:04,392 --> 00:36:08,232
Speaker 4: there was things but unfor Actionately, all of those sorts

600
00:36:08,272 --> 00:36:11,312
Speaker 4: of things that really would have been important for collecting

601
00:36:11,352 --> 00:36:16,192
Speaker 4: evidence right away when the boat docked, they weren't mentioned.

602
00:36:17,031 --> 00:36:21,431
Speaker 4: Some young constables took the statement from Gabe and the

603
00:36:21,511 --> 00:36:24,072
Speaker 4: other people are on the boat and they weren't asked.

604
00:36:24,712 --> 00:36:28,712
Speaker 4: Like there was a volunteer on board that day, lou Johnson,

605
00:36:29,272 --> 00:36:32,152
Speaker 4: and she went to his cabin with him straight after

606
00:36:32,712 --> 00:36:36,071
Speaker 4: the whole thing had happened, and he was saying some

607
00:36:36,192 --> 00:36:40,952
Speaker 4: very strange things to her there and she wasn't asked

608
00:36:40,991 --> 00:36:44,272
Speaker 4: about anything. That all of that evidence was never in

609
00:36:44,312 --> 00:36:46,872
Speaker 4: their statements initially before the court case.

610
00:36:47,031 --> 00:36:47,872
Speaker 2: And why was that?

611
00:36:47,991 --> 00:36:48,272
Speaker 4: Was it?

612
00:36:48,352 --> 00:36:51,152
Speaker 3: Because the police were an experience.

613
00:36:51,272 --> 00:36:55,872
Speaker 2: Was it because they didn't understand diving a mixture of

614
00:36:55,872 --> 00:36:56,231
Speaker 2: the two.

615
00:36:57,352 --> 00:36:59,992
Speaker 4: I think you know. To have that many people giving,

616
00:37:01,431 --> 00:37:03,991
Speaker 4: they wanted to take the statements quite quickly, so they

617
00:37:03,991 --> 00:37:07,591
Speaker 4: were all kind of shoveled off and given the opportunity

618
00:37:07,672 --> 00:37:10,512
Speaker 4: to give their version. There was a lot of people

619
00:37:10,551 --> 00:37:13,312
Speaker 4: and a lot of evidence that one of the passengers

620
00:37:13,352 --> 00:37:17,152
Speaker 4: said one constable was taking it all down the two fingers.

621
00:37:17,192 --> 00:37:21,592
Speaker 4: So the whole thing took forever to the record of interviewed,

622
00:37:23,031 --> 00:37:26,872
Speaker 4: but certainly probably at least three people said it was

623
00:37:26,991 --> 00:37:32,471
Speaker 4: just so disappointing because some of their evidence that went

624
00:37:32,592 --> 00:37:36,832
Speaker 4: towards pointing the finger at Gabe Watson was never collected

625
00:37:36,872 --> 00:37:38,072
Speaker 4: in those statements.

626
00:37:38,752 --> 00:37:42,352
Speaker 2: How were the families, and I say families because Gabe's

627
00:37:42,352 --> 00:37:45,792
Speaker 2: family and Tina's family, how were they informed about what

628
00:37:45,872 --> 00:37:46,431
Speaker 2: had happened?

629
00:37:48,152 --> 00:37:51,112
Speaker 4: Well, that was another strange thing that he was told

630
00:37:51,152 --> 00:37:54,631
Speaker 4: to ring his parents, and he didn't want to do

631
00:37:54,672 --> 00:37:57,392
Speaker 4: that initially, but he finally did ring his parents, but

632
00:37:57,431 --> 00:38:00,712
Speaker 4: he wasn't going to ring Tina's parents. Tina's parents didn't

633
00:38:00,752 --> 00:38:06,312
Speaker 4: know until twelve hours after the whole thing had happened.

634
00:38:06,592 --> 00:38:09,591
Speaker 4: And when he first when Tommy Thomas got the call

635
00:38:09,911 --> 00:38:13,911
Speaker 4: to say something's wrong. Gabe asked his father to call them,

636
00:38:14,792 --> 00:38:19,232
Speaker 4: and he basically said, there's been something terrible happened, and

637
00:38:19,272 --> 00:38:22,272
Speaker 4: then he handed the phone to his preacher. There were

638
00:38:22,312 --> 00:38:26,071
Speaker 4: Southern Baptists the Gabe Watson's family, and the preacher is

639
00:38:26,072 --> 00:38:29,632
Speaker 4: the one who told Tommy Thomas, and Tommy was asking

640
00:38:29,632 --> 00:38:33,912
Speaker 4: for details which the preacher didn't have, and in fact,

641
00:38:34,072 --> 00:38:38,471
Speaker 4: then the mother, when she was hysterical understandably, Tina's mother

642
00:38:39,312 --> 00:38:42,591
Speaker 4: realized that Gabe's mother had already booked her flight to

643
00:38:42,632 --> 00:38:45,872
Speaker 4: get to Australia, and in fact, her daughter hadn't just died,

644
00:38:46,872 --> 00:38:50,072
Speaker 4: It happened twelve hours before, and they hadn't even been told.

645
00:38:50,511 --> 00:38:54,792
Speaker 4: And her sister went to work at a restaurant and

646
00:38:54,872 --> 00:38:57,951
Speaker 4: everyone knew, the staff knew that word had got out

647
00:38:57,991 --> 00:39:00,551
Speaker 4: before the family were even told, and she found out

648
00:39:00,592 --> 00:39:03,312
Speaker 4: about it at work, so she had to then go

649
00:39:03,352 --> 00:39:06,872
Speaker 4: and tell the mother. So I mean that and then

650
00:39:07,152 --> 00:39:10,552
Speaker 4: their first reaction with Thomas's first reaction was how terrible

651
00:39:10,632 --> 00:39:13,631
Speaker 4: the gay because you know, he'd witnessed this awful thing

652
00:39:13,752 --> 00:39:17,712
Speaker 4: and lost his wife who just married, and there was nothing. Actually,

653
00:39:17,712 --> 00:39:21,072
Speaker 4: can imagine they're miles away in Alabama. There was nothing

654
00:39:21,112 --> 00:39:25,431
Speaker 4: to suggest that something had happened that was underwought.

655
00:39:26,112 --> 00:39:29,032
Speaker 2: Gabe did eventually talk to Tina's parents on the phone,

656
00:39:29,232 --> 00:39:31,991
Speaker 2: and he and no other way to say that he

657
00:39:32,072 --> 00:39:35,431
Speaker 2: lied about certain things in those initial phone calls.

658
00:39:35,872 --> 00:39:39,071
Speaker 4: He did, and I mean at that point, you know,

659
00:39:39,672 --> 00:39:44,511
Speaker 4: he was very thinking about the dive computer, but he

660
00:39:44,592 --> 00:39:47,392
Speaker 4: was also going to give them an evidence another one

661
00:39:47,392 --> 00:39:49,392
Speaker 4: of the versions that he said happened.

662
00:39:49,551 --> 00:39:52,271
Speaker 2: Can you tell us what he lied about.

663
00:39:53,672 --> 00:39:56,471
Speaker 4: Well, he lied about the fact that he was with

664
00:39:56,511 --> 00:40:01,112
Speaker 4: her basically at the final moments, and that she blinked

665
00:40:01,152 --> 00:40:04,631
Speaker 4: at him when she was underwater, and that she would

666
00:40:04,672 --> 00:40:06,551
Speaker 4: have known he was going for help. But also he

667
00:40:06,632 --> 00:40:09,151
Speaker 4: lied and said he was there because Cindy asked him,

668
00:40:09,712 --> 00:40:12,951
Speaker 4: her mother asked him, were you there, of course, you know,

669
00:40:13,712 --> 00:40:17,151
Speaker 4: to help to see if she'd be okay, And he said, yes,

670
00:40:17,232 --> 00:40:17,832
Speaker 4: I was there.

671
00:40:18,312 --> 00:40:20,752
Speaker 2: So during all of the CPR all of that, he

672
00:40:20,832 --> 00:40:21,472
Speaker 2: kind of said.

673
00:40:21,312 --> 00:40:23,511
Speaker 4: He was present exactly.

674
00:40:24,152 --> 00:40:28,072
Speaker 2: There was a lot of tension that started bubbling between

675
00:40:28,352 --> 00:40:32,152
Speaker 2: Gabe and Tina's families during the process of bringing Tina's

676
00:40:32,152 --> 00:40:36,031
Speaker 2: body home, organizing her funeral, the funeral itself, can you

677
00:40:36,112 --> 00:40:40,232
Speaker 2: touch on some of that and how that kind of

678
00:40:40,392 --> 00:40:41,031
Speaker 2: bubbled over.

679
00:40:42,352 --> 00:40:45,952
Speaker 4: Yes, well, there are plots that Cindy right away said,

680
00:40:46,112 --> 00:40:48,832
Speaker 4: you know, we've got plots and Gabe can be next

681
00:40:48,872 --> 00:40:53,792
Speaker 4: to Tina. So funeral plots, that funeral plots that their

682
00:40:53,911 --> 00:40:57,952
Speaker 4: family had organized, and that was never going to be

683
00:40:58,192 --> 00:41:01,032
Speaker 4: and in fact, right up even until it was present moment,

684
00:41:01,072 --> 00:41:03,551
Speaker 4: as far as I know, Gabe hasn't given any of

685
00:41:03,592 --> 00:41:07,152
Speaker 4: her belongings back and he announced know that she was

686
00:41:07,192 --> 00:41:10,832
Speaker 4: going to their family plot. So there was a lot

687
00:41:11,112 --> 00:41:15,511
Speaker 4: of angst even around what was going to happen to

688
00:41:15,592 --> 00:41:18,111
Speaker 4: her now that she had died, and what they were

689
00:41:18,112 --> 00:41:19,192
Speaker 4: going to do with the body.

690
00:41:22,112 --> 00:41:24,512
Speaker 2: After the break, we look at why both the police

691
00:41:24,832 --> 00:41:28,552
Speaker 2: and Tina's family started to grow suspicious of Gabe Watson

692
00:41:28,632 --> 00:41:34,432
Speaker 2: and his ever changing story. So Tommy and the family

693
00:41:34,471 --> 00:41:35,512
Speaker 2: were starting to kind.

694
00:41:35,392 --> 00:41:36,752
Speaker 3: Of get a little bit suspicious.

695
00:41:36,792 --> 00:41:40,672
Speaker 2: They'd started talking to some of the dive passengers about

696
00:41:40,712 --> 00:41:45,431
Speaker 2: their suspicions. At this point, were police.

697
00:41:45,112 --> 00:41:46,552
Speaker 3: Investigating foul play?

698
00:41:46,712 --> 00:41:50,312
Speaker 2: Was it an open investigation or like what was happening there?

699
00:41:51,272 --> 00:41:54,111
Speaker 4: No, I don't think it was. I think police had

700
00:41:54,192 --> 00:41:57,031
Speaker 4: just there was even comments made on the notes, no

701
00:41:57,192 --> 00:42:02,432
Speaker 4: suspicious circumstances. So I think it hadn't been for these

702
00:42:02,951 --> 00:42:06,312
Speaker 4: obviously these guests, other guests going home and thinking about it,

703
00:42:06,592 --> 00:42:09,392
Speaker 4: and they just felt bad about it from the word go,

704
00:42:10,471 --> 00:42:14,511
Speaker 4: like they thought there was something wrong. So I think

705
00:42:14,551 --> 00:42:17,152
Speaker 4: police had kind of left it, let it be, and

706
00:42:17,232 --> 00:42:20,551
Speaker 4: I guess the Thomases as well, thought, you know, they're

707
00:42:20,592 --> 00:42:23,632
Speaker 4: so far away what had happened. She was a beginning diver.

708
00:42:24,471 --> 00:42:28,431
Speaker 4: There was conversations about the currents that Gabe started feeding

709
00:42:28,471 --> 00:42:32,312
Speaker 4: in fairly early on to the media, to the media,

710
00:42:32,911 --> 00:42:36,472
Speaker 4: so that was another sudden thing that he talked about,

711
00:42:36,471 --> 00:42:39,272
Speaker 4: and this strange thing like an earache that he had,

712
00:42:39,392 --> 00:42:41,551
Speaker 4: and there was no evidence that he had, sorry, so

713
00:42:41,592 --> 00:42:44,832
Speaker 4: there was suddenly this other stuff coming in at one point.

714
00:42:44,872 --> 00:42:48,511
Speaker 4: But the currents, I guess from their perspective from the Thomases,

715
00:42:48,592 --> 00:42:51,911
Speaker 4: they knew how scared she was, probably about diving. They

716
00:42:51,951 --> 00:42:54,712
Speaker 4: knew it was an ocean dive that was said to

717
00:42:54,752 --> 00:42:58,512
Speaker 4: be dangerous, which there had been information that the currents

718
00:42:58,511 --> 00:43:01,191
Speaker 4: could get extremely strong, but there was a lot of

719
00:43:01,792 --> 00:43:04,312
Speaker 4: evidence that the Spoilers board staff checked all of that

720
00:43:04,392 --> 00:43:07,231
Speaker 4: before she went in. But it certainly wasn't a day

721
00:43:07,272 --> 00:43:09,392
Speaker 4: where you're just swimming along like in the swimming pool.

722
00:43:10,551 --> 00:43:13,592
Speaker 4: So I think for all of those reasons that Thomas's

723
00:43:14,072 --> 00:43:19,112
Speaker 4: believed that, you know, their daughter had died in tragic circumstances.

724
00:43:20,152 --> 00:43:24,192
Speaker 4: But then I think when that these questions were asked

725
00:43:24,232 --> 00:43:27,711
Speaker 4: and this one of the guests rang Tommy, I think

726
00:43:27,792 --> 00:43:31,591
Speaker 4: things started changing and that he started recalling all of

727
00:43:31,632 --> 00:43:33,072
Speaker 4: these other things that were happening.

728
00:43:33,872 --> 00:43:36,992
Speaker 2: Four years after Tina's death, so we're talking two thousand

729
00:43:36,991 --> 00:43:41,072
Speaker 2: and seven, there was an inquest held in Townsville around

730
00:43:41,072 --> 00:43:44,872
Speaker 2: the circumstances of how she died, Why did it take

731
00:43:44,951 --> 00:43:48,192
Speaker 2: that long, and why wouldn't the next steps for police

732
00:43:48,232 --> 00:43:54,471
Speaker 2: in Australia be something like arresting Gabe, going down that

733
00:43:54,872 --> 00:43:57,352
Speaker 2: route of suspicion.

734
00:43:58,232 --> 00:44:02,151
Speaker 4: Yes, because that's four years after the whole event, which

735
00:44:02,192 --> 00:44:05,712
Speaker 4: was October two thousand and three. I think, to be honest,

736
00:44:05,752 --> 00:44:11,631
Speaker 4: it's the initial police investigation was just expecting, which is

737
00:44:11,672 --> 00:44:15,191
Speaker 4: not how police should operate. And I'm not saying they

738
00:44:15,192 --> 00:44:17,872
Speaker 4: didn't do a good job, but I think they just

739
00:44:18,031 --> 00:44:21,752
Speaker 4: expected it to be a dive. There are a number

740
00:44:21,792 --> 00:44:25,272
Speaker 4: of people by the way, that do die on storkling

741
00:44:25,312 --> 00:44:28,511
Speaker 4: expeditions on boats. I mean, we run boats, we hear

742
00:44:28,592 --> 00:44:31,952
Speaker 4: about it. It's not necessarily making the media, and most

743
00:44:31,951 --> 00:44:35,951
Speaker 4: of those are natural causes heart attacks people. But it

744
00:44:36,072 --> 00:44:40,631
Speaker 4: did take or two thousand and seven, and finally there

745
00:44:40,672 --> 00:44:44,591
Speaker 4: was the inquest, as you said, and finally there was

746
00:44:44,872 --> 00:44:46,991
Speaker 4: the coroner pointed finger it Gabe.

747
00:44:47,152 --> 00:44:51,352
Speaker 2: There were sixty two witnesses at that inquest, twelve points

748
00:44:51,352 --> 00:44:52,431
Speaker 2: of concern for police.

749
00:44:52,752 --> 00:44:54,191
Speaker 3: We've touched on a few of.

750
00:44:54,072 --> 00:44:55,631
Speaker 2: Them, but I want to run through some of them

751
00:44:55,672 --> 00:44:58,191
Speaker 2: just to kind of give listeners and ideas. So we've

752
00:44:58,192 --> 00:45:01,951
Speaker 2: got obviously the conflicting stories to different people. There was

753
00:45:01,991 --> 00:45:06,631
Speaker 2: the apparent malfunction of the dive computer, the slow rate

754
00:45:06,672 --> 00:45:11,552
Speaker 2: of assent, given the emergency of Gabe coming to the surface,

755
00:45:11,592 --> 00:45:14,471
Speaker 2: and given it only took Wade, you know, ninety two

756
00:45:14,471 --> 00:45:18,511
Speaker 2: seconds or something like that, took him several minutes. And

757
00:45:18,551 --> 00:45:21,071
Speaker 2: then Tina's heart condition was also a part of this

758
00:45:21,232 --> 00:45:24,592
Speaker 2: inquest because obviously she'd had heart problems as a child,

759
00:45:24,632 --> 00:45:27,111
Speaker 2: and that was investigated as to whether it could have

760
00:45:27,232 --> 00:45:31,792
Speaker 2: been a condition that caused her to die. What was

761
00:45:31,832 --> 00:45:34,392
Speaker 2: found in terms of that.

762
00:45:33,511 --> 00:45:36,672
Speaker 4: That's right, So she had had that operation and she'd

763
00:45:36,712 --> 00:45:40,392
Speaker 4: been given the all clear, and that was found not

764
00:45:40,511 --> 00:45:43,352
Speaker 4: to have been the cause of death because a couple

765
00:45:43,392 --> 00:45:47,591
Speaker 4: of things that the people said on Spoilsport were the

766
00:45:47,632 --> 00:45:50,672
Speaker 4: only thing that could have happened and caused her to

767
00:45:50,752 --> 00:45:55,032
Speaker 4: die was that there was no heir when she was found.

768
00:45:55,192 --> 00:45:57,712
Speaker 4: But Wade Singleton had found that there was air in

769
00:45:57,752 --> 00:46:00,872
Speaker 4: the tank. They didn't know about her heart condition that

770
00:46:00,951 --> 00:46:05,631
Speaker 4: people on spoilsport, but certainly the post mortem said that

771
00:46:05,632 --> 00:46:06,912
Speaker 4: that wasn't a death.

772
00:46:07,031 --> 00:46:10,551
Speaker 2: And they also found her with the regulator still in

773
00:46:10,592 --> 00:46:12,272
Speaker 2: her mouth and it was all functioning.

774
00:46:13,991 --> 00:46:18,672
Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. Everything the only as it was interesting

775
00:46:18,712 --> 00:46:22,312
Speaker 4: because these two experienced divers said that's the only reason

776
00:46:22,392 --> 00:46:23,392
Speaker 4: for the cause of death.

777
00:46:23,792 --> 00:46:27,392
Speaker 2: There's also this infamous photo which we haven't mentioned yet.

778
00:46:27,712 --> 00:46:32,392
Speaker 2: It's the most famous image from this case, and it

779
00:46:32,471 --> 00:46:35,551
Speaker 2: has a diver in the kind of foreground smiling at

780
00:46:35,551 --> 00:46:40,911
Speaker 2: the camera and in the background you can see Tina. Yeah,

781
00:46:40,991 --> 00:46:44,471
Speaker 2: and that photo actually was used in the inquest as well,

782
00:46:44,592 --> 00:46:44,911
Speaker 2: wasn't it?

783
00:46:44,911 --> 00:46:45,671
Speaker 3: What did it show?

784
00:46:47,312 --> 00:46:51,071
Speaker 4: Well, that was chilling because the other honeymoon couple, he

785
00:46:51,152 --> 00:46:53,991
Speaker 4: was so proud of his new camera and it had

786
00:46:54,031 --> 00:46:57,031
Speaker 4: gone digital way back in those days two thousand and three,

787
00:46:57,592 --> 00:47:00,352
Speaker 4: and he was photographing his wife Dawn I think her

788
00:47:00,431 --> 00:47:03,911
Speaker 4: name was, and she was turning back to Way Singleton

789
00:47:04,072 --> 00:47:07,671
Speaker 4: to get an idea of how deep they were, so

790
00:47:07,752 --> 00:47:09,551
Speaker 4: he took a photo off and it wasn't untill they

791
00:47:09,551 --> 00:47:12,872
Speaker 4: were sitting on spoilsport actually looking through the photographs and

792
00:47:12,872 --> 00:47:14,912
Speaker 4: he was saying, oh, I didn't get really good ones,

793
00:47:15,072 --> 00:47:17,312
Speaker 4: you know, I didn't realize how to focus. And then

794
00:47:17,352 --> 00:47:19,511
Speaker 4: suddenly he came across this one of Dawn. It was

795
00:47:19,551 --> 00:47:22,591
Speaker 4: one of the better photos. He said, what's that behind her?

796
00:47:22,832 --> 00:47:26,031
Speaker 4: Is it coral? And then they realized it was actually Tina.

797
00:47:26,272 --> 00:47:29,312
Speaker 2: And was there something about the fact that Gabe wasn't

798
00:47:29,312 --> 00:47:32,592
Speaker 2: in that photo and that was used as evidence.

799
00:47:33,431 --> 00:47:36,792
Speaker 4: Well, they actually had the photo of Wade Singleton. They

800
00:47:36,792 --> 00:47:40,511
Speaker 4: could see his fins going down. So how quickly he

801
00:47:40,632 --> 00:47:45,951
Speaker 4: reacted when he realized that, you know that this was

802
00:47:45,991 --> 00:47:47,872
Speaker 4: someone at the bottom and he had to get her up.

803
00:47:48,072 --> 00:47:50,711
Speaker 2: That inquest came to an end kind of mid two

804
00:47:50,712 --> 00:47:55,472
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and it basically found that Gabe should

805
00:47:55,511 --> 00:47:59,951
Speaker 2: be charged with murder. Was that a shocking thing to

806
00:48:00,031 --> 00:48:01,752
Speaker 2: have happened in an inquest?

807
00:48:02,031 --> 00:48:05,631
Speaker 4: It was shocking given that not anyone had really looked

808
00:48:05,672 --> 00:48:09,672
Speaker 4: at the fact in that way before, and also that

809
00:48:09,712 --> 00:48:12,952
Speaker 4: it was four years after she died, but I think

810
00:48:13,592 --> 00:48:18,392
Speaker 4: that what happened then he ended up getting a sentence

811
00:48:18,431 --> 00:48:22,312
Speaker 4: of manslaughter really upset the family because they said that

812
00:48:23,031 --> 00:48:25,472
Speaker 4: there was definitely enough evidence. The more they were hearing,

813
00:48:25,511 --> 00:48:28,551
Speaker 4: they flew to towns while they hired a lawyer, the more

814
00:48:28,551 --> 00:48:30,752
Speaker 4: they were hearing about what went on, the more horrified

815
00:48:30,792 --> 00:48:31,191
Speaker 4: they were.

816
00:48:31,672 --> 00:48:36,911
Speaker 2: Gabe arrived in Australia May two thousand and nine. He

817
00:48:36,991 --> 00:48:39,832
Speaker 2: was arrested as soon as he got here. And then

818
00:48:39,991 --> 00:48:42,272
Speaker 2: the next shock that kind of came to everyone was

819
00:48:42,312 --> 00:48:45,472
Speaker 2: that he entered a plea when he turned up in court,

820
00:48:45,832 --> 00:48:49,272
Speaker 2: not guilty to murder, but that he would plead guilty

821
00:48:49,312 --> 00:48:53,312
Speaker 2: to manslaughter. And basically he'd made a deal.

822
00:48:53,312 --> 00:48:54,032
Speaker 3: With the DPP.

823
00:48:55,152 --> 00:48:57,432
Speaker 2: How did that even come about? Did he know before

824
00:48:57,471 --> 00:49:01,192
Speaker 2: he got on that plane that if he came he

825
00:49:01,272 --> 00:49:05,471
Speaker 2: could just plead guilty to manslaughter get not the murder chart.

826
00:49:06,431 --> 00:49:09,872
Speaker 4: It's like a plea deal, and I think plea bargaining.

827
00:49:10,352 --> 00:49:14,071
Speaker 4: The prosecutors said that they basically had looked at all

828
00:49:14,072 --> 00:49:16,911
Speaker 4: of the evidence, there's still not the evidence that he

829
00:49:17,072 --> 00:49:20,352
Speaker 4: actually caused her death, which was the problem they faced

830
00:49:20,392 --> 00:49:23,992
Speaker 4: with a murder charge. And as you said, the initial

831
00:49:23,991 --> 00:49:27,631
Speaker 4: investigation hadn't uncovered anything untoward, and there was a number

832
00:49:27,672 --> 00:49:31,832
Speaker 4: of years went by before this all ended up in court.

833
00:49:32,031 --> 00:49:35,471
Speaker 2: He agreed to a manslaught of charge which was a

834
00:49:35,511 --> 00:49:38,111
Speaker 2: sentence of four and a half years, but initially that

835
00:49:38,272 --> 00:49:42,031
Speaker 2: was most of it was suspended, so it was about

836
00:49:42,072 --> 00:49:46,511
Speaker 2: a year in prison. And what was the reaction to that,

837
00:49:46,792 --> 00:49:52,071
Speaker 2: not just from Tina's family, but from investigators from the internet.

838
00:49:52,792 --> 00:49:54,072
Speaker 2: How did everyone react?

839
00:49:54,832 --> 00:50:00,111
Speaker 4: Well, I suppose the fact that well, the parents and

840
00:50:00,152 --> 00:50:04,271
Speaker 4: the family were just really upset. As you can imagine.

841
00:50:04,792 --> 00:50:07,911
Speaker 4: He was basically found guilty of being a bad dive buddy.

842
00:50:08,951 --> 00:50:16,392
Speaker 4: But then he was extradited, as you know, to Alabama.

843
00:50:16,112 --> 00:50:20,272
Speaker 2: Because they basically wanted to pursue murder charges again, didn't.

844
00:50:19,991 --> 00:50:24,392
Speaker 4: They That's right, they did so. But the issue then

845
00:50:24,752 --> 00:50:31,192
Speaker 4: was could Australia give somebody up to be extradited if

846
00:50:31,192 --> 00:50:33,911
Speaker 4: they faced the death sentence, which is what in Alabama

847
00:50:33,991 --> 00:50:37,951
Speaker 4: they still have capital punishment, as we probably know, so

848
00:50:38,152 --> 00:50:41,951
Speaker 4: they were in a very difficult position to give him up,

849
00:50:42,712 --> 00:50:45,432
Speaker 4: but they ended up getting assurance that he wouldn't be

850
00:50:45,471 --> 00:50:48,591
Speaker 4: put to death if he was found guilty. In America,

851
00:50:48,672 --> 00:50:50,151
Speaker 4: that didn't end up happening, did it.

852
00:50:50,832 --> 00:50:52,712
Speaker 2: The case in America was abandoned.

853
00:50:53,792 --> 00:50:57,791
Speaker 4: That's right. Halfway through the evidence, the judge came in

854
00:50:58,072 --> 00:51:02,712
Speaker 4: and dismissed the jury and said there's not enough evidence

855
00:51:03,072 --> 00:51:08,352
Speaker 4: I find to find him guilty, and he walked free.

856
00:51:08,712 --> 00:51:11,872
Speaker 4: And in Alabama they don't have a right to appeal,

857
00:51:12,551 --> 00:51:18,952
Speaker 4: so the parents could do absolutely nothing to revisit the case,

858
00:51:19,112 --> 00:51:23,192
Speaker 4: get another judge on the case. So it was almost

859
00:51:23,272 --> 00:51:27,152
Speaker 4: like at every turn between the body of their daughter

860
00:51:27,232 --> 00:51:31,872
Speaker 4: being exhumed, this terrible set of events unfolding about how

861
00:51:31,911 --> 00:51:36,792
Speaker 4: she died, the culpability of her husband who had been

862
00:51:36,832 --> 00:51:43,352
Speaker 4: found guilty of manslaughter. At least in Australia, there was

863
00:51:43,431 --> 00:51:48,312
Speaker 4: really nothing else that they could do because.

864
00:51:48,232 --> 00:51:51,352
Speaker 2: The only extra kind of rope they got was instead

865
00:51:51,352 --> 00:51:53,752
Speaker 2: of a year in prison, they appealed and managed to

866
00:51:53,792 --> 00:51:55,752
Speaker 2: get a year and a half. So a year and

867
00:51:55,792 --> 00:52:00,031
Speaker 2: a half in prison was what Gabe Watson kind of served.

868
00:52:01,392 --> 00:52:04,272
Speaker 2: And then he went home to America and he had

869
00:52:04,272 --> 00:52:07,471
Speaker 2: a new wife. Do we know what, have we heard

870
00:52:07,471 --> 00:52:09,072
Speaker 2: anything in the last few years.

871
00:52:10,112 --> 00:52:14,511
Speaker 4: I've got an alert on his name. But there was

872
00:52:14,592 --> 00:52:17,752
Speaker 4: certainly evidence that the new wife was very much a

873
00:52:17,792 --> 00:52:23,551
Speaker 4: look alike for Tina, which was quite chilling. So I

874
00:52:23,712 --> 00:52:28,152
Speaker 4: don't suppose he's been up to anything particularly bad, because

875
00:52:28,431 --> 00:52:30,312
Speaker 4: I think we would have heard about it in the media.

876
00:52:30,951 --> 00:52:34,712
Speaker 4: But yes, I mean I failed to see after writing

877
00:52:34,752 --> 00:52:36,951
Speaker 4: this book and spending all this time and going to

878
00:52:36,991 --> 00:52:40,712
Speaker 4: America and doing all the interviews, I just cannot understand

879
00:52:40,832 --> 00:52:45,632
Speaker 4: why women would stay with someone that all your friends

880
00:52:45,672 --> 00:52:49,231
Speaker 4: and all your family are saying, this isn't right, He's

881
00:52:49,272 --> 00:52:52,832
Speaker 4: not the right person for you, you know, throwing a pizza

882
00:52:52,872 --> 00:52:56,032
Speaker 4: at a face in the middle of a restaurant. Now again,

883
00:52:56,112 --> 00:52:59,992
Speaker 4: I do have hasten to say he is a free

884
00:53:00,031 --> 00:53:03,631
Speaker 4: man and he's been found not guilty, but at the

885
00:53:03,672 --> 00:53:06,792
Speaker 4: time we were writing the book, certainly that wasn't the case.

886
00:53:06,951 --> 00:53:10,031
Speaker 2: Do you think that that goes to the heart of

887
00:53:10,072 --> 00:53:15,991
Speaker 2: why this case has been so popular in the media.

888
00:53:16,072 --> 00:53:18,792
Speaker 2: You know, you and your co author had completely differing

889
00:53:18,911 --> 00:53:21,631
Speaker 2: views here, and I feel like that is what was

890
00:53:21,632 --> 00:53:25,072
Speaker 2: happening on a world kind of stage where people were

891
00:53:25,112 --> 00:53:28,672
Speaker 2: just obsessed with going over the details and being against

892
00:53:28,712 --> 00:53:32,272
Speaker 2: each other and in Gabe's corner, not in Gabe's corner,

893
00:53:32,511 --> 00:53:36,432
Speaker 2: and that's why it kind of captured everyone.

894
00:53:36,272 --> 00:53:39,232
Speaker 4: I think very much. Sarah. I think this is often

895
00:53:39,272 --> 00:53:44,031
Speaker 4: the case and murder cases that to actually prove, you know,

896
00:53:44,592 --> 00:53:47,712
Speaker 4: I saw him hold up a knife and stab someone

897
00:53:47,712 --> 00:53:50,712
Speaker 4: in the back, that is not the case. And rape cases,

898
00:53:51,031 --> 00:53:55,312
Speaker 4: you know, her version versus his version, I think ultimately

899
00:53:56,632 --> 00:54:00,632
Speaker 4: even and he's walking free now. So yes, it does

900
00:54:00,872 --> 00:54:03,192
Speaker 4: fuel that whole idea. I think there are people that

901
00:54:03,792 --> 00:54:08,352
Speaker 4: adamantly She was absolutely adamant that he hadn't done it.

902
00:54:08,872 --> 00:54:12,192
Speaker 4: And yet we've done the same interviews. We door knocked

903
00:54:12,551 --> 00:54:15,471
Speaker 4: Gabe's place where he lived, we'd spoken to people at

904
00:54:15,511 --> 00:54:19,832
Speaker 4: the dive instructor, we'd interviewed all these people, so she

905
00:54:20,072 --> 00:54:24,832
Speaker 4: was exposed to the same information I was. We're both journalists,

906
00:54:24,911 --> 00:54:28,312
Speaker 4: so I think that says everything that at the end

907
00:54:28,312 --> 00:54:32,432
Speaker 4: of the day, Yeah, we probably did reflect that ambivalence

908
00:54:32,712 --> 00:54:38,272
Speaker 4: about for the disagreements that did he do it or

909
00:54:38,312 --> 00:54:38,672
Speaker 4: didn't he.

910
00:54:42,232 --> 00:54:45,431
Speaker 2: Thanks to Lindsey and Jennifer helping us to tell this story.

911
00:54:45,592 --> 00:54:48,712
Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is hosted and produced by me Jemma

912
00:54:48,712 --> 00:54:52,232
Speaker 2: Bass and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.

913
00:54:52,951 --> 00:54:55,511
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. Claire Murphy will be back

914
00:54:55,551 --> 00:54:57,832
Speaker 2: next week with another True Crime Conversation.

915
00:55:00,511 --> 00:55:03,552
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