1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,112 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:13,872 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on It's Mother's Day, 3 00:00:14,032 --> 00:00:17,791 Speaker 1: May thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Two boys are out playing 4 00:00:17,912 --> 00:00:21,512 Speaker 1: in Tampa, Florida, when they come across the body of 5 00:00:21,632 --> 00:00:24,512 Speaker 1: new and long known to her friends as Lana. Her 6 00:00:24,552 --> 00:00:28,392 Speaker 1: hands were tied behind her back, and shockingly, her naked 7 00:00:28,432 --> 00:00:31,672 Speaker 1: body has been left with her legs spread open. Her 8 00:00:31,712 --> 00:00:34,032 Speaker 1: death would be the start of an investigation that would 9 00:00:34,031 --> 00:00:37,872 Speaker 1: see police discover a new victim almost every two weeks. 10 00:00:38,711 --> 00:00:44,071 Speaker 1: Michelle Simms, Elizabeth laudenbeck Schanel Williams, Karen Dison, Friend, Kimberly Hops, 11 00:00:44,152 --> 00:00:48,191 Speaker 1: Virginia Johnson, Kim Swan, Vicky Elliott, and Anne known as 12 00:00:48,351 --> 00:00:53,192 Speaker 1: artists Wick. Investigators couldn't quite see all the links between 13 00:00:53,192 --> 00:00:55,992 Speaker 1: the victims. I mean, some were sex workers, but not 14 00:00:56,072 --> 00:00:59,472 Speaker 1: all of them. They were different ethnicities, ranged in age 15 00:00:59,512 --> 00:01:02,672 Speaker 1: from eighteen to twenty eight. They all had ligature marks 16 00:01:02,712 --> 00:01:05,152 Speaker 1: where they'd been tied up, and all had been raped. 17 00:01:05,632 --> 00:01:08,312 Speaker 1: But while several had been strangled, one had been shot 18 00:01:08,552 --> 00:01:10,872 Speaker 1: and another had her throat cut. So not even the 19 00:01:10,872 --> 00:01:13,752 Speaker 1: same method of killing in all of them, but just 20 00:01:14,032 --> 00:01:18,952 Speaker 1: one piece of evidence would tie them altogether red carpet fibers. 21 00:01:19,512 --> 00:01:23,032 Speaker 1: With the rate of killings escalating and no suspect in sight, 22 00:01:23,392 --> 00:01:26,752 Speaker 1: police were desperately searching for the one thing that would 23 00:01:26,831 --> 00:01:30,752 Speaker 1: finally break this case open. And then, on November third, 24 00:01:30,831 --> 00:01:34,152 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, a seventeen year old girl who just 25 00:01:34,271 --> 00:01:36,672 Speaker 1: finished her night shift at a local timber Krispy Kreme 26 00:01:37,352 --> 00:01:39,872 Speaker 1: was heading home when she was plucked from the back 27 00:01:39,911 --> 00:01:43,072 Speaker 1: of her bicycle by a stranger. The next twenty six 28 00:01:43,112 --> 00:01:45,752 Speaker 1: hours would see her in a fight for her life 29 00:01:45,831 --> 00:01:49,312 Speaker 1: against a man who tied her up, raped her repeatedly, 30 00:01:49,472 --> 00:01:52,352 Speaker 1: and held a gun to her head. What the killer 31 00:01:52,392 --> 00:01:56,952 Speaker 1: didn't know was that his victim, Lisa McVeagh, was sadly 32 00:01:57,352 --> 00:02:01,792 Speaker 1: uniquely experienced with violent and abusive men, and while she 33 00:02:01,832 --> 00:02:04,632 Speaker 1: did look to him to be yet another vulnerable victim, 34 00:02:04,832 --> 00:02:08,272 Speaker 1: her presence of mind plant evidence of the crime scene, 35 00:02:08,512 --> 00:02:12,512 Speaker 1: an incredible ability to recall detail under pressure despite being 36 00:02:12,592 --> 00:02:16,792 Speaker 1: blindfolded for almost the entire ordeal would later shock even 37 00:02:16,952 --> 00:02:21,072 Speaker 1: hardened longtime detectives. But in the aftermath of her ordeal, 38 00:02:21,432 --> 00:02:24,832 Speaker 1: not realizing that she had actually just survived a serial killer, 39 00:02:25,272 --> 00:02:27,992 Speaker 1: Lisa knew she could potentially lead police to the door 40 00:02:27,992 --> 00:02:29,192 Speaker 1: of a rapist. 41 00:02:29,232 --> 00:02:31,592 Speaker 2: If only she could get someone to believe her. 42 00:02:35,912 --> 00:02:39,072 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a 43 00:02:39,112 --> 00:02:42,552 Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 44 00:02:42,592 --> 00:02:45,912 Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. The detective 45 00:02:46,032 --> 00:02:49,312 Speaker 1: who worked the case involving Lisa McVeagh still refers to 46 00:02:49,352 --> 00:02:52,472 Speaker 1: her as the true hero of his career what she 47 00:02:52,672 --> 00:02:55,472 Speaker 1: managed to do. No member of the Tampa police were 48 00:02:55,512 --> 00:02:59,552 Speaker 1: able to linking a serial killer to his victims. But 49 00:02:59,592 --> 00:03:01,832 Speaker 1: as we often see in cases where women and girls 50 00:03:01,832 --> 00:03:04,992 Speaker 1: come forward with stories of sexual assault, finding someone to 51 00:03:05,032 --> 00:03:08,392 Speaker 1: first believe her story and then actually take action is 52 00:03:08,472 --> 00:03:13,752 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult, and sometimes these women are completely overlooked, especially 53 00:03:13,872 --> 00:03:17,392 Speaker 1: if the victim doesn't fit the typical mold, and Lisa 54 00:03:17,432 --> 00:03:22,072 Speaker 1: McVeigh certainly did not fit. Now next week we are 55 00:03:22,112 --> 00:03:24,192 Speaker 1: going to be speaking to Lisa McVeagh herself, who now 56 00:03:24,232 --> 00:03:25,472 Speaker 1: goes by the name Lisa May. 57 00:03:25,952 --> 00:03:27,272 Speaker 2: But today we're speaking to. 58 00:03:27,232 --> 00:03:29,872 Speaker 1: The director and producer of the movie Believe Me, Jim 59 00:03:29,912 --> 00:03:33,432 Speaker 1: Donovan and Jeff vanderwill the dramatic retelling of Lisa's story. 60 00:03:34,112 --> 00:03:37,552 Speaker 1: They worked personally with Lisa, who even makes an appearance 61 00:03:37,552 --> 00:03:39,632 Speaker 1: at the end of the film to explain how this 62 00:03:39,872 --> 00:03:44,432 Speaker 1: courageous and brilliant young woman brought down a serial killer. Now, 63 00:03:44,472 --> 00:03:46,272 Speaker 1: you might have caught this movie on Netflix when it 64 00:03:46,312 --> 00:03:48,752 Speaker 1: was released back in twenty twenty one and felt the 65 00:03:48,872 --> 00:03:51,632 Speaker 1: impact when you saw that real Lisa featured in a 66 00:03:51,672 --> 00:03:55,192 Speaker 1: world where young women are abducted and often killed. This 67 00:03:55,312 --> 00:03:58,432 Speaker 1: film showed Lisa's strength in being able to understand her 68 00:03:58,512 --> 00:04:01,872 Speaker 1: captor and escape. So what is it like to recreate 69 00:04:01,912 --> 00:04:05,392 Speaker 1: a person's worst experience for the small screen and how 70 00:04:05,392 --> 00:04:06,712 Speaker 1: do you help actors bring. 71 00:04:06,592 --> 00:04:09,232 Speaker 2: To life someone's real life nightmare. 72 00:04:11,952 --> 00:04:13,912 Speaker 1: First of all, I wanted to find out from the 73 00:04:13,952 --> 00:04:18,272 Speaker 1: both of you what initially got you interested in Lisa's story, 74 00:04:18,312 --> 00:04:20,632 Speaker 1: How did you find out about it, and what was 75 00:04:20,672 --> 00:04:22,832 Speaker 1: it that drew you in to feel like you needed 76 00:04:22,832 --> 00:04:23,832 Speaker 1: to tell that story. 77 00:04:24,312 --> 00:04:28,752 Speaker 3: I was producing a documentary series called Surviving Evil back 78 00:04:28,912 --> 00:04:33,632 Speaker 3: in twenty thirteen, and we were looking at really compelling 79 00:04:34,352 --> 00:04:38,592 Speaker 3: and really surprising stories of survival across the board, and 80 00:04:39,032 --> 00:04:43,952 Speaker 3: we came across Lisa's story for that series and ended 81 00:04:44,032 --> 00:04:46,392 Speaker 3: up meeting her and connecting with her and talking to her. 82 00:04:46,952 --> 00:04:49,392 Speaker 3: And the way the series unfolded is that the person 83 00:04:49,472 --> 00:04:53,632 Speaker 3: who who survives essentially tells their story almost direct to camera. 84 00:04:54,232 --> 00:04:57,392 Speaker 3: And because she was one of our very first episodes 85 00:04:57,432 --> 00:04:59,592 Speaker 3: that we did for that series, I had the good 86 00:04:59,592 --> 00:05:01,392 Speaker 3: fortune to go down and spend some time with her 87 00:05:01,392 --> 00:05:04,712 Speaker 3: in Florida and with the director of the show. I 88 00:05:04,792 --> 00:05:06,552 Speaker 3: was there for the interview, and she also, you know, 89 00:05:06,632 --> 00:05:10,672 Speaker 3: she still lives in works in the neighborhood where she 90 00:05:10,752 --> 00:05:12,792 Speaker 3: was abducted, still lives, you know, basically the same part 91 00:05:12,792 --> 00:05:14,872 Speaker 3: of Tampa. So she's able to take us around and 92 00:05:14,992 --> 00:05:18,352 Speaker 3: show us where she was taken, where she was released, 93 00:05:18,392 --> 00:05:21,432 Speaker 3: show us the streets. And it was such a powerful 94 00:05:21,952 --> 00:05:26,552 Speaker 3: and really emotional experience that I never forgot. I never 95 00:05:26,592 --> 00:05:28,552 Speaker 3: forgot Lisa. I never forgot any of it. And it 96 00:05:28,592 --> 00:05:30,712 Speaker 3: was incredibly moving. And I think partly because her story 97 00:05:30,752 --> 00:05:33,432 Speaker 3: is so inspiring, and partly because she's just such an 98 00:05:33,512 --> 00:05:36,712 Speaker 3: incredible survivor and the things that she went through are 99 00:05:36,992 --> 00:05:39,992 Speaker 3: so surprising and shocking, and she's come through as just 100 00:05:39,992 --> 00:05:43,152 Speaker 3: such a great, surprising person. And when we started developing 101 00:05:43,392 --> 00:05:48,272 Speaker 3: movies and started developing scripted stories based on true stories, 102 00:05:49,192 --> 00:05:53,072 Speaker 3: Lisa's was, you know, within the first two or three 103 00:05:53,072 --> 00:05:54,231 Speaker 3: that we talked about was that we have to do 104 00:05:54,272 --> 00:05:56,072 Speaker 3: Lisa's story, and I called her and asked her and 105 00:05:56,112 --> 00:05:58,712 Speaker 3: she was completely on board for it. And then she 106 00:05:58,872 --> 00:06:01,152 Speaker 3: was able to do the same thing with the writer, 107 00:06:01,312 --> 00:06:03,872 Speaker 3: Christina Well, she wrote the movie, went down and had 108 00:06:03,872 --> 00:06:05,952 Speaker 3: the same experience. She went down to Tampa, she spent 109 00:06:06,032 --> 00:06:09,272 Speaker 3: days Lisa, she drove around. She really got to know 110 00:06:09,352 --> 00:06:12,112 Speaker 3: her and know exactly what was happening and what it 111 00:06:12,192 --> 00:06:15,072 Speaker 3: was like for Lisa when she was taken. And then 112 00:06:15,272 --> 00:06:19,032 Speaker 3: Christina went away and wrote an incredible movie. And then 113 00:06:19,392 --> 00:06:21,592 Speaker 3: in the course of setting it up, I talked to 114 00:06:21,672 --> 00:06:23,312 Speaker 3: Jim and had been a big fan of his work 115 00:06:23,472 --> 00:06:25,632 Speaker 3: and thought that he would be able to sort of 116 00:06:25,672 --> 00:06:27,752 Speaker 3: help bring it to life and do justice. We knew 117 00:06:27,752 --> 00:06:30,432 Speaker 3: we needed a very special and talented filmmaker, and so 118 00:06:30,472 --> 00:06:32,152 Speaker 3: we reached out to Jim and then he came on board. 119 00:06:32,192 --> 00:06:33,632 Speaker 3: And then from then on we were really just a 120 00:06:33,632 --> 00:06:35,992 Speaker 3: team and we all worked really hard. I mean, Lisa 121 00:06:36,032 --> 00:06:38,312 Speaker 3: was involved as a consultant, Christina who did an amazing 122 00:06:38,392 --> 00:06:41,072 Speaker 3: job writing it. Jim, who did you know, a phenomenal 123 00:06:41,112 --> 00:06:43,232 Speaker 3: job directing it. We all just work together to try 124 00:06:43,272 --> 00:06:44,712 Speaker 3: and do her story justice. 125 00:06:44,792 --> 00:06:46,392 Speaker 1: Well, Jim, I wanted to ask you what it was 126 00:06:46,512 --> 00:06:50,272 Speaker 1: like to have the victim of the crime consult with 127 00:06:50,312 --> 00:06:54,392 Speaker 1: you as you're telling that story, because some of the 128 00:06:54,392 --> 00:06:59,152 Speaker 1: themes in this movie are really difficult to tell sensitively 129 00:06:59,672 --> 00:07:02,952 Speaker 1: because it does involve sexual assault and involves, you know, 130 00:07:03,312 --> 00:07:07,912 Speaker 1: child sexual exploitation, it involves abduction and a serial killer 131 00:07:08,032 --> 00:07:11,872 Speaker 1: like that is sensitive topics, and you've got that victim 132 00:07:12,032 --> 00:07:14,552 Speaker 1: of that crime with you trying to help guide you 133 00:07:14,592 --> 00:07:15,392 Speaker 1: through that process. 134 00:07:15,432 --> 00:07:16,432 Speaker 2: What was that like for you? 135 00:07:17,032 --> 00:07:17,712 Speaker 4: All around? 136 00:07:18,272 --> 00:07:22,552 Speaker 5: This whole project was intimidating in so many different ways 137 00:07:22,632 --> 00:07:27,872 Speaker 5: because you for me, it was my first true crime film. 138 00:07:28,272 --> 00:07:33,352 Speaker 5: I had up until then done purely fictional series or 139 00:07:33,392 --> 00:07:37,952 Speaker 5: movies like this, so the mindset is very different. Suddenly 140 00:07:39,112 --> 00:07:41,912 Speaker 5: when Jeff approached me with the project and said, this 141 00:07:42,072 --> 00:07:44,512 Speaker 5: is this is for real. So you're going to read 142 00:07:44,592 --> 00:07:49,352 Speaker 5: something that's more or less accurate. And like you said, 143 00:07:49,392 --> 00:07:53,272 Speaker 5: you're reading through and you're seeing things that somehow you're 144 00:07:53,352 --> 00:07:56,192 Speaker 5: used to seeing, except that the difference is these things 145 00:07:56,192 --> 00:08:00,752 Speaker 5: really happened, these crimes were committed, this person pulled through. 146 00:08:01,312 --> 00:08:06,032 Speaker 5: And so to have Lisa suddenly at our fingertips, you know, 147 00:08:06,152 --> 00:08:08,872 Speaker 5: to sort of like just kind of like dial a number, 148 00:08:08,952 --> 00:08:13,032 Speaker 5: call speak but more importantly, when she showed up. I 149 00:08:13,032 --> 00:08:16,192 Speaker 5: mean that was incredibly intimidating, because you're, you're, you're trying 150 00:08:16,192 --> 00:08:18,832 Speaker 5: to do justice to the story. You're trying to it's 151 00:08:18,872 --> 00:08:19,992 Speaker 5: all fictionalized, and. 152 00:08:19,912 --> 00:08:23,032 Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm a. 153 00:08:21,992 --> 00:08:26,032 Speaker 5: Veteran of bringing stories to life that way. But now 154 00:08:26,072 --> 00:08:29,432 Speaker 5: suddenly I have the real person who came to set 155 00:08:29,672 --> 00:08:32,032 Speaker 5: and and all the actors and all the crew are 156 00:08:32,032 --> 00:08:35,992 Speaker 5: aware that this is this is really this has happened, 157 00:08:36,271 --> 00:08:39,432 Speaker 5: and and there she is. So in many ways, there 158 00:08:39,472 --> 00:08:43,912 Speaker 5: was there was that feeling of motivation to get it right, 159 00:08:45,032 --> 00:08:48,952 Speaker 5: but also a kind of i'd say a validation because 160 00:08:48,992 --> 00:08:52,432 Speaker 5: she was, you know, she was very supportive. She was 161 00:08:52,712 --> 00:08:55,632 Speaker 5: very supportive. She was she was there to try and 162 00:08:55,672 --> 00:08:58,152 Speaker 5: encourage us. I think she's saying, oh my gosh, it 163 00:08:58,192 --> 00:09:00,632 Speaker 5: feels like, you know, and I don't know whether she, 164 00:09:00,992 --> 00:09:04,312 Speaker 5: you know, was completely telling the truth or just trying 165 00:09:04,312 --> 00:09:07,232 Speaker 5: to help us get through uh telling her story, but 166 00:09:07,272 --> 00:09:11,792 Speaker 5: she certainly motivated the entire crew, and at some points 167 00:09:11,992 --> 00:09:15,272 Speaker 5: she got emotional, and that touched us a lot, and 168 00:09:15,352 --> 00:09:17,391 Speaker 5: for me that I had never really worked on a 169 00:09:19,592 --> 00:09:24,632 Speaker 5: fiction film where I was standing next to the person 170 00:09:25,112 --> 00:09:29,352 Speaker 5: to whom this actually happened, so an incredibly special experience 171 00:09:29,392 --> 00:09:31,552 Speaker 5: for us all. And of course we managed to go 172 00:09:31,632 --> 00:09:33,792 Speaker 5: down to Tampa and put her in the movie. At 173 00:09:33,792 --> 00:09:36,512 Speaker 5: the very end, you'll see her, and that was lovely. 174 00:09:36,952 --> 00:09:39,272 Speaker 1: You know, I've watched this movie twice and I cried 175 00:09:39,712 --> 00:09:41,271 Speaker 1: both times she comes on the screen. 176 00:09:42,272 --> 00:09:44,712 Speaker 5: She's just a badass cop and you just see her 177 00:09:44,752 --> 00:09:49,712 Speaker 5: there after seeing this vulnerable yet powerfully determined young woman, 178 00:09:50,072 --> 00:09:51,952 Speaker 5: you know, make it out of there. I mean, it's 179 00:09:51,992 --> 00:09:54,872 Speaker 5: a film that has many parts. It's almost like two 180 00:09:54,912 --> 00:09:57,512 Speaker 5: or three films at once, because you know, like you 181 00:09:57,512 --> 00:10:02,952 Speaker 5: see this vulnerable person get abducted, abused, all this violence 182 00:10:02,992 --> 00:10:06,152 Speaker 5: takes place, and then you see her start to figure 183 00:10:06,152 --> 00:10:08,791 Speaker 5: her way out and you see her. 184 00:10:08,912 --> 00:10:10,032 Speaker 4: Work with law enforcement. 185 00:10:10,072 --> 00:10:11,832 Speaker 5: And now at the very end of the movie, you 186 00:10:11,872 --> 00:10:16,031 Speaker 5: see this this police officer with her charger and her 187 00:10:16,032 --> 00:10:19,112 Speaker 5: gun and look at you and it's just like wow. 188 00:10:19,392 --> 00:10:22,752 Speaker 4: I was really happy that she was on board and 189 00:10:22,792 --> 00:10:24,552 Speaker 4: that we got to meet her and that she's actually 190 00:10:24,552 --> 00:10:25,032 Speaker 4: on the film. 191 00:10:25,312 --> 00:10:27,952 Speaker 1: What was that experience like for the actors on set though, 192 00:10:28,112 --> 00:10:31,992 Speaker 1: I mean for the actress who plays Lisa, I imagine 193 00:10:31,992 --> 00:10:34,432 Speaker 1: that would have been an incredible experience to be able 194 00:10:34,472 --> 00:10:36,992 Speaker 1: to have her alongside her and guide her through that. 195 00:10:37,112 --> 00:10:42,271 Speaker 1: But I often think about the actor who played serial 196 00:10:42,352 --> 00:10:45,192 Speaker 1: killer Joe Long. Yeah, Like for him that would have 197 00:10:45,192 --> 00:10:49,992 Speaker 1: been incredibly difficult to be the perpetrator and have the 198 00:10:50,032 --> 00:10:54,472 Speaker 1: actual victim see his performance like that must have been 199 00:10:54,512 --> 00:10:56,352 Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult situation. 200 00:10:57,072 --> 00:11:01,272 Speaker 5: My sense is that we created this bubble with myself, 201 00:11:01,392 --> 00:11:07,192 Speaker 5: Jeff and the actors those two, especially Rossip Sutherland and 202 00:11:07,472 --> 00:11:13,152 Speaker 5: where you know, we we had mechanisms in place, safe words, rehearsals, 203 00:11:13,672 --> 00:11:16,631 Speaker 5: we talked a lot, There was a lot of research. 204 00:11:17,072 --> 00:11:19,512 Speaker 5: We had this bubble, and my one of my first 205 00:11:19,592 --> 00:11:21,632 Speaker 5: jobs as a director is to is to make sure 206 00:11:21,672 --> 00:11:24,792 Speaker 5: that bubble stays intact so that hey, we're stressed for 207 00:11:24,872 --> 00:11:28,952 Speaker 5: time or or whatever happens. I'm there to sort of 208 00:11:29,032 --> 00:11:31,912 Speaker 5: keep the bubble around us and make sure we're making 209 00:11:31,952 --> 00:11:36,392 Speaker 5: something where we're not. We're trying to stay focused. And 210 00:11:36,432 --> 00:11:38,992 Speaker 5: so when when Lisa came in, I can't speak to 211 00:11:40,192 --> 00:11:42,832 Speaker 5: how they felt, but you know, I know Jeff and 212 00:11:42,872 --> 00:11:44,432 Speaker 5: I talked a lot about I was I was. I 213 00:11:44,472 --> 00:11:47,952 Speaker 5: was worried about the bubble, like I think, I asked, Jeff, 214 00:11:47,992 --> 00:11:50,392 Speaker 5: can you can you make sure you got her so 215 00:11:50,512 --> 00:11:53,512 Speaker 5: that I don't have to deal with Lisa. I deal 216 00:11:53,552 --> 00:11:57,672 Speaker 5: with the actors because I know we're on a schedule. 217 00:11:57,872 --> 00:11:59,992 Speaker 5: We're we're trying to make a movie, and it's I 218 00:11:59,992 --> 00:12:02,632 Speaker 5: don't want to intimidate them because we got to. 219 00:12:02,592 --> 00:12:03,872 Speaker 4: Make this, we got to tell the story. 220 00:12:03,952 --> 00:12:05,792 Speaker 5: So Jeff had a big part to play in that 221 00:12:05,832 --> 00:12:08,632 Speaker 5: because he was really taking care of Lisa, and so 222 00:12:08,752 --> 00:12:12,312 Speaker 5: I was opening the door and we would work or 223 00:12:12,392 --> 00:12:15,192 Speaker 5: talk or exchange, but then I would close the door 224 00:12:15,192 --> 00:12:18,472 Speaker 5: and make sure that we're still doing our thing, because. 225 00:12:18,232 --> 00:12:20,632 Speaker 4: That's my job. Right, How do you see it, Jeff? 226 00:12:20,672 --> 00:12:22,232 Speaker 4: Is that? How do I remember it correctly? 227 00:12:22,672 --> 00:12:22,872 Speaker 3: Yeah? 228 00:12:22,952 --> 00:12:24,272 Speaker 4: No, I think you really do. 229 00:12:24,472 --> 00:12:27,192 Speaker 3: I mean it's also worth pointing out Lisa, who was 230 00:12:27,232 --> 00:12:30,112 Speaker 3: a tremendous asset during the entire like the writing, the production, 231 00:12:30,192 --> 00:12:32,511 Speaker 3: all of it. When she came and visited set, she 232 00:12:32,552 --> 00:12:34,752 Speaker 3: didn't stay for all of it. I think she knew. 233 00:12:35,032 --> 00:12:36,952 Speaker 3: I mean, partly, she's a busy person, she's got a job. 234 00:12:37,592 --> 00:12:39,672 Speaker 3: I think she also knew that as much as she 235 00:12:39,672 --> 00:12:42,392 Speaker 3: wanted to come and visit set, she didn't want to 236 00:12:42,432 --> 00:12:45,752 Speaker 3: see all And there were definitely times where she was 237 00:12:45,752 --> 00:12:47,712 Speaker 3: on set and you know, we talked. She always knew 238 00:12:47,752 --> 00:12:50,392 Speaker 3: what we were filming. None of it was ever a surprise, 239 00:12:51,312 --> 00:12:53,112 Speaker 3: but there were things that were still difficult for her 240 00:12:53,152 --> 00:12:55,632 Speaker 3: to watch, and so it wasn't as though she was 241 00:12:55,672 --> 00:12:58,032 Speaker 3: there for every moment, but she was there definitely to 242 00:12:58,032 --> 00:13:00,752 Speaker 3: see certain things and to give advice. And the one 243 00:13:00,792 --> 00:13:02,511 Speaker 3: thing that you know we talked about before, and I 244 00:13:02,552 --> 00:13:06,712 Speaker 3: think it was actually really empowering, was she actually the 245 00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,512 Speaker 3: police officers when Bobby Joe Long is arrested, who come 246 00:13:09,552 --> 00:13:12,392 Speaker 3: and arrest him and snap the handcuffs on him. Lisa 247 00:13:12,592 --> 00:13:14,712 Speaker 3: showed those actors how to do that, like as a 248 00:13:14,712 --> 00:13:16,552 Speaker 3: police officer, like, oh, this is how you do it. 249 00:13:16,632 --> 00:13:18,992 Speaker 3: So she got to help the actors who were going 250 00:13:19,032 --> 00:13:22,792 Speaker 3: to arrest the guy. Like the layers of performance meeting 251 00:13:22,832 --> 00:13:26,152 Speaker 3: reality meeting what happened sort of fold back on themselves 252 00:13:26,232 --> 00:13:28,072 Speaker 3: with it. But I think that was really enjoyable and 253 00:13:28,112 --> 00:13:29,792 Speaker 3: profound for her to see that in some ways, like 254 00:13:29,872 --> 00:13:32,631 Speaker 3: she's witnessing that arrest again. And then in terms of 255 00:13:32,632 --> 00:13:34,312 Speaker 3: the bubble, I mean, I would say with both Kenny 256 00:13:34,312 --> 00:13:39,672 Speaker 3: Douglass and Ross, if everyone really understood and wanted to 257 00:13:39,672 --> 00:13:42,431 Speaker 3: be careful with the story and they were all filmmakers, 258 00:13:42,472 --> 00:13:44,552 Speaker 3: like I mean, the memory that I have from Ross 259 00:13:44,552 --> 00:13:46,232 Speaker 3: if On is that Rossoff was often sitting at the 260 00:13:46,232 --> 00:13:48,032 Speaker 3: monitor even when he wasn't in the scenes, because he 261 00:13:48,072 --> 00:13:49,592 Speaker 3: wanted to watch him be a part of it. 262 00:13:49,592 --> 00:13:50,232 Speaker 4: Like it's one of the. 263 00:13:50,192 --> 00:13:53,432 Speaker 3: Few films where there were many of us at the monitors, 264 00:13:53,472 --> 00:13:55,232 Speaker 3: not because we were crowded around, just because we all 265 00:13:55,312 --> 00:13:57,352 Speaker 3: knew it was this special thing that we were making, 266 00:13:57,632 --> 00:13:59,192 Speaker 3: and so even if you maybe weren't in the scene, 267 00:13:59,232 --> 00:14:01,192 Speaker 3: you might want to watch it, or be there for 268 00:14:01,272 --> 00:14:03,792 Speaker 3: the other actors, or just be present. And so I 269 00:14:03,832 --> 00:14:06,592 Speaker 3: think to Jim's point, it really was a bubble. But 270 00:14:06,632 --> 00:14:08,352 Speaker 3: it also felt like we all had the same mission, 271 00:14:08,352 --> 00:14:10,232 Speaker 3: which is sort of do rate by Lisa and do 272 00:14:10,312 --> 00:14:12,792 Speaker 3: the whole story justice. I mean, there's also there you know, 273 00:14:12,792 --> 00:14:16,072 Speaker 3: there were a number many victims of Bobby jo Long 274 00:14:16,872 --> 00:14:20,512 Speaker 3: that did not you did not survive, and we were 275 00:14:20,552 --> 00:14:23,072 Speaker 3: aware of that too, that that across the world. You know, 276 00:14:23,112 --> 00:14:25,432 Speaker 3: we're trying to be as respectful with this entire story 277 00:14:25,472 --> 00:14:28,112 Speaker 3: as we can. And everyone really took that on, everybody 278 00:14:28,152 --> 00:14:31,872 Speaker 3: from the cast, the entire production team, the other producers, 279 00:14:31,912 --> 00:14:33,552 Speaker 3: Like everyone was really on board with that. 280 00:14:36,552 --> 00:14:39,592 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy. 281 00:14:39,792 --> 00:14:41,992 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with the director and producer of the movie 282 00:14:42,032 --> 00:14:45,752 Speaker 1: Believe Me, the Abduction of Lisa McVay. Up next, I 283 00:14:45,832 --> 00:14:48,272 Speaker 1: ask about the actor who had to play serial killer 284 00:14:48,312 --> 00:14:52,112 Speaker 1: Bobby Joe Long on screen and how he navigated portraying 285 00:14:52,192 --> 00:14:54,952 Speaker 1: a real life person who was at his core so 286 00:14:55,272 --> 00:14:55,912 Speaker 1: very evil. 287 00:14:59,152 --> 00:14:59,872 Speaker 2: The actor who. 288 00:14:59,752 --> 00:15:03,472 Speaker 1: Played Bobby jo Long, how much evidence do you give 289 00:15:03,552 --> 00:15:06,712 Speaker 1: him from real life to create that series You'll kill 290 00:15:06,712 --> 00:15:07,952 Speaker 1: a persona on screen? 291 00:15:09,152 --> 00:15:10,752 Speaker 4: He was quite impressive. 292 00:15:11,152 --> 00:15:15,312 Speaker 5: We met, you know, well in advance of shooting, obviously 293 00:15:15,312 --> 00:15:18,832 Speaker 5: because we worked on rehearsals and whatnot. But the first 294 00:15:18,832 --> 00:15:20,792 Speaker 5: time we met he had it felt like he had 295 00:15:20,832 --> 00:15:23,512 Speaker 5: a whole suitcase of research that he had done, you know, 296 00:15:23,592 --> 00:15:26,992 Speaker 5: like he was asking questions, and I was a little 297 00:15:26,992 --> 00:15:30,952 Speaker 5: bit taken aback because I don't I think he found 298 00:15:30,952 --> 00:15:33,712 Speaker 5: things that I didn't know about, and that probably Jeff 299 00:15:33,712 --> 00:15:37,032 Speaker 5: didn't know about because he had just dug into this guy. 300 00:15:37,152 --> 00:15:40,512 Speaker 5: And I have to say, for me to do to 301 00:15:40,592 --> 00:15:43,712 Speaker 5: do justice, to make a film like this interesting, you 302 00:15:43,832 --> 00:15:48,472 Speaker 5: have to have that level of curiosity and dedication to 303 00:15:48,632 --> 00:15:51,752 Speaker 5: the character. Even though he is a serial killer, even 304 00:15:51,792 --> 00:15:54,592 Speaker 5: though he is a deranged individual. He did all these 305 00:15:54,712 --> 00:15:58,952 Speaker 5: bad things. Unless you have a compelling Bobby Joe Long, 306 00:15:59,552 --> 00:16:02,992 Speaker 5: you don't have a compelling movie. And ross Off came 307 00:16:03,032 --> 00:16:05,712 Speaker 5: to it and I was truly impressed. I mean I 308 00:16:05,752 --> 00:16:08,072 Speaker 5: had to suddenly switch gears and try to get up 309 00:16:08,112 --> 00:16:12,272 Speaker 5: there and work, because you have to understand or at 310 00:16:12,352 --> 00:16:16,552 Speaker 5: least have some kind of an understanding, some kind of 311 00:16:16,592 --> 00:16:20,312 Speaker 5: a way in to this character, because otherwise he's just 312 00:16:20,352 --> 00:16:23,952 Speaker 5: a paper thin monster. And you know, a lot of 313 00:16:24,072 --> 00:16:26,872 Speaker 5: value in the film is left on the table if 314 00:16:26,872 --> 00:16:29,992 Speaker 5: you don't take the time to try and see, okay, 315 00:16:30,032 --> 00:16:32,632 Speaker 5: what's wrong with this guy? I mean I read up 316 00:16:32,672 --> 00:16:35,632 Speaker 5: on on things that aren't quite in the film, like 317 00:16:36,152 --> 00:16:38,752 Speaker 5: that he had that he hit his head many times 318 00:16:38,872 --> 00:16:42,392 Speaker 5: and and had possibly some mental issues that way, that 319 00:16:42,472 --> 00:16:45,232 Speaker 5: he had a condition where he had too much estrogen 320 00:16:45,512 --> 00:16:49,672 Speaker 5: producing glands or whatever, and and had developed these these 321 00:16:49,672 --> 00:16:52,552 Speaker 5: physical attributes that caused him to be bullied. 322 00:16:52,792 --> 00:16:56,552 Speaker 4: And so on. So you know, like it's it's not 323 00:16:56,672 --> 00:16:57,712 Speaker 4: that we're trying. 324 00:16:57,432 --> 00:17:03,632 Speaker 5: To forgive what he did, but we're trying to create 325 00:17:03,712 --> 00:17:08,272 Speaker 5: a sense that he's not just a a caricature, he's 326 00:17:08,311 --> 00:17:13,632 Speaker 5: a character. And that raises the stakes for Lisa's story, 327 00:17:13,911 --> 00:17:17,151 Speaker 5: how she overcame all this how she got into his head, 328 00:17:17,552 --> 00:17:20,431 Speaker 5: she managed to get herself released, you know, in addition 329 00:17:20,472 --> 00:17:22,512 Speaker 5: to all the other layers of what she had to overcome, 330 00:17:22,552 --> 00:17:25,911 Speaker 5: because there's quite a few more. But yeah, Rossif really 331 00:17:26,111 --> 00:17:29,071 Speaker 5: pushed me, and I think pushed us all to really 332 00:17:29,151 --> 00:17:32,311 Speaker 5: really work hard on creating a character that people are 333 00:17:32,351 --> 00:17:36,191 Speaker 5: going to be compelled to watch, as hard as that is. 334 00:17:36,671 --> 00:17:38,791 Speaker 1: Was Bobby Jlong still on death row when you were 335 00:17:38,831 --> 00:17:40,071 Speaker 1: making this film? 336 00:17:40,111 --> 00:17:41,631 Speaker 2: Was he aware of what you were doing? 337 00:17:42,272 --> 00:17:42,471 Speaker 4: You know? 338 00:17:42,512 --> 00:17:46,192 Speaker 5: I asked myself that question a lot, because, as I said, 339 00:17:46,631 --> 00:17:49,032 Speaker 5: I've never done a true crime story, and I was 340 00:17:49,071 --> 00:17:52,311 Speaker 5: aware he was on death row, and in some strange way, 341 00:17:52,351 --> 00:17:55,672 Speaker 5: I felt some kind of responsibility. I can't quite put 342 00:17:55,671 --> 00:17:57,471 Speaker 5: my finger on why I felt this way, but I 343 00:17:57,512 --> 00:18:01,671 Speaker 5: had this weird sense that, you know, like I'm somehow 344 00:18:01,712 --> 00:18:04,431 Speaker 5: some kind of a judge in this guy's trial. 345 00:18:04,752 --> 00:18:08,111 Speaker 4: He was put to death. What is it twenty nineteen, Jeff, 346 00:18:08,232 --> 00:18:09,671 Speaker 4: I think I looked aside. 347 00:18:09,712 --> 00:18:12,391 Speaker 3: Just after the movie came, after he was executed. 348 00:18:12,472 --> 00:18:15,591 Speaker 5: Yeah, and so yeah, when we were making it, it 349 00:18:15,631 --> 00:18:19,711 Speaker 5: was still there. We didn't consult with this guy. I 350 00:18:19,752 --> 00:18:22,671 Speaker 5: have no knowledge of that. If the research was if 351 00:18:22,952 --> 00:18:25,152 Speaker 5: any journalists might have talked to him, so that that's 352 00:18:25,192 --> 00:18:28,511 Speaker 5: what we read. I'm just looking at public sources of 353 00:18:28,552 --> 00:18:29,591 Speaker 5: info about him. 354 00:18:29,871 --> 00:18:32,792 Speaker 1: Talking about the movie itself and the crime as it 355 00:18:32,831 --> 00:18:37,151 Speaker 1: played out. How accurate is it to real life? And 356 00:18:37,192 --> 00:18:39,871 Speaker 1: where do you have to step in and fictionalize some 357 00:18:39,992 --> 00:18:42,871 Speaker 1: of that story and why do you make those decisions 358 00:18:42,911 --> 00:18:43,591 Speaker 1: in that process? 359 00:18:43,871 --> 00:18:44,752 Speaker 4: Jeff is more aware. 360 00:18:44,752 --> 00:18:47,792 Speaker 5: I think of the background of some of the secondary 361 00:18:47,871 --> 00:18:50,551 Speaker 5: characters and how some of these things, some of these 362 00:18:50,591 --> 00:18:54,071 Speaker 5: characters were combined. I mean, we have ninety minutes to 363 00:18:54,111 --> 00:18:57,351 Speaker 5: tell the story, and there's an act structure. You know, 364 00:18:57,512 --> 00:19:01,911 Speaker 5: some things are done for efficiency and done for structure, 365 00:19:02,911 --> 00:19:06,231 Speaker 5: and I'd say a lot of that happened in the scriptwriting. 366 00:19:06,911 --> 00:19:08,431 Speaker 5: I don't know, Jeff, do you have any thoughts on 367 00:19:08,472 --> 00:19:08,871 Speaker 5: that one? 368 00:19:09,792 --> 00:19:13,351 Speaker 4: Like how far are we from the real story? 369 00:19:13,391 --> 00:19:17,711 Speaker 3: This is very close, extremely close to the real story. 370 00:19:17,752 --> 00:19:22,391 Speaker 3: There is very few liberties taken. It's very very close 371 00:19:22,431 --> 00:19:25,231 Speaker 3: to exactly what happened. As John said, Yeah, there's some 372 00:19:25,272 --> 00:19:27,512 Speaker 3: there are accomposite characters, there are things that are truncated 373 00:19:27,552 --> 00:19:30,111 Speaker 3: for time. I think, you know the difference between having 374 00:19:30,151 --> 00:19:33,351 Speaker 3: having both produced the docum the scripted film about it 375 00:19:33,351 --> 00:19:36,911 Speaker 3: it's the scripted film allows you access to a certain 376 00:19:37,111 --> 00:19:40,951 Speaker 3: emotional expression and emotional understanding from the characters, from all 377 00:19:41,032 --> 00:19:44,671 Speaker 3: of the characters, not just Lisa, but everyone, that you 378 00:19:44,792 --> 00:19:47,191 Speaker 3: don't get from the documentary. And I think in that, 379 00:19:48,351 --> 00:19:51,192 Speaker 3: because it's only ninety minutes, you can illuminate and kind 380 00:19:51,192 --> 00:19:53,911 Speaker 3: of shine that light and give the bigger sense of 381 00:19:53,952 --> 00:19:57,232 Speaker 3: the person as a whole. And that's through everything. I mean, 382 00:19:57,232 --> 00:19:59,631 Speaker 3: that's casting, that's the writing, that's all of it to 383 00:19:59,712 --> 00:20:01,591 Speaker 3: really suggest what the characters are like. But it is 384 00:20:01,752 --> 00:20:04,272 Speaker 3: very very close to exactly what happened. I mean, I 385 00:20:04,272 --> 00:20:09,071 Speaker 3: think we're trying to unpack and explain an awful lot 386 00:20:09,071 --> 00:20:11,311 Speaker 3: of Lisa's life, you know, and Lisa should speak for 387 00:20:11,311 --> 00:20:12,792 Speaker 3: her own life and her own experience, but just to 388 00:20:12,831 --> 00:20:16,351 Speaker 3: give insight into both what her home life was and 389 00:20:16,671 --> 00:20:20,512 Speaker 3: also how the abuse she had suffered and the trauma 390 00:20:20,631 --> 00:20:24,631 Speaker 3: she had suffered before Bobby Joe Long kidnapped her gave 391 00:20:24,712 --> 00:20:26,992 Speaker 3: her some insights or some tools in terms of that 392 00:20:27,311 --> 00:20:29,311 Speaker 3: were then going to help her with her survival. And certainly, 393 00:20:29,311 --> 00:20:31,911 Speaker 3: like you know, we couldn't unpack the entire story of 394 00:20:31,911 --> 00:20:34,032 Speaker 3: what had happened to her in the lead up, but 395 00:20:34,111 --> 00:20:36,552 Speaker 3: I think the movie gives you glimpses of that to 396 00:20:36,552 --> 00:20:38,792 Speaker 3: give you a sort of bigger understanding, and certainly in 397 00:20:38,871 --> 00:20:41,831 Speaker 3: terms of what happened with her and Bobby Joelong, it's, 398 00:20:42,151 --> 00:20:43,792 Speaker 3: you know, pretty much by the numbers of what they 399 00:20:43,831 --> 00:20:44,591 Speaker 3: actually went through. 400 00:20:45,032 --> 00:20:47,391 Speaker 5: There's a lot of things that we can't show. I mean, 401 00:20:48,032 --> 00:20:51,272 Speaker 5: there's a lot of things that we pushed the envelope on. 402 00:20:51,391 --> 00:20:55,071 Speaker 5: Some of the rape scenes are none of its graphic. 403 00:20:55,111 --> 00:20:59,472 Speaker 5: You're not seeing any you know, genitals, you're not seeing nudity, 404 00:20:59,512 --> 00:21:02,471 Speaker 5: You're just but you're feeling it. And I think we 405 00:21:02,552 --> 00:21:08,631 Speaker 5: had to really push hard on giving you the sense 406 00:21:08,712 --> 00:21:12,431 Speaker 5: of the trauma that she suffered. But then on the 407 00:21:12,472 --> 00:21:15,191 Speaker 5: other hand, you have to think about the audience. How 408 00:21:15,272 --> 00:21:17,552 Speaker 5: much do they want to see? Like, you know, I 409 00:21:17,591 --> 00:21:19,392 Speaker 5: have an aversion to blood. I don't want I don't 410 00:21:19,391 --> 00:21:22,032 Speaker 5: want to see blood. I don't like seeing people getting 411 00:21:22,032 --> 00:21:24,391 Speaker 5: cut up, and you know what I mean. So I 412 00:21:24,472 --> 00:21:26,512 Speaker 5: have to think about the audience. Maybe somebody doesn't want 413 00:21:26,552 --> 00:21:29,471 Speaker 5: to see the rape, and I'm pretty sure you know 414 00:21:29,712 --> 00:21:33,392 Speaker 5: the network doesn't, So there's that. I mean, I think 415 00:21:33,431 --> 00:21:36,431 Speaker 5: we have to we have to think of the audience 416 00:21:37,192 --> 00:21:40,272 Speaker 5: as worth as we're making this. There are bits in 417 00:21:40,311 --> 00:21:42,951 Speaker 5: the story I find that are that are really left 418 00:21:43,311 --> 00:21:46,751 Speaker 5: that we had to condense into bits and pieces. And 419 00:21:47,071 --> 00:21:51,392 Speaker 5: I'd say that her story of abuse with her her family, 420 00:21:51,752 --> 00:21:53,751 Speaker 5: I mean, those things are all hinted at very quickly, 421 00:21:53,792 --> 00:21:55,591 Speaker 5: so you can focus more on her and what she 422 00:21:55,671 --> 00:21:58,631 Speaker 5: went through. But like Jeff said, there's a whole history 423 00:21:58,671 --> 00:22:00,431 Speaker 5: of things that she she There's a lot of stuff 424 00:22:00,431 --> 00:22:03,272 Speaker 5: that we were not treating so much in the movie. 425 00:22:03,311 --> 00:22:05,752 Speaker 5: We're sort of hint We're sort of saying, yeah, these 426 00:22:05,792 --> 00:22:08,831 Speaker 5: things happen, but we don't exactly spend much time there. 427 00:22:08,871 --> 00:22:11,831 Speaker 5: We're spending a lot of time with the abduction and 428 00:22:11,911 --> 00:22:14,591 Speaker 5: her getting out of it and helping solve the murder case, 429 00:22:15,351 --> 00:22:17,231 Speaker 5: so we have to sacrifice those things. 430 00:22:20,472 --> 00:22:22,951 Speaker 1: Next, I ask about Lisa's family and how the movie 431 00:22:23,032 --> 00:22:23,912 Speaker 1: was received by them. 432 00:22:24,192 --> 00:22:24,831 Speaker 2: Stay with us. 433 00:22:27,671 --> 00:22:30,672 Speaker 1: We did mention that Lisa's story is in three parts essentially, 434 00:22:30,712 --> 00:22:33,951 Speaker 1: and a big part of that is the trauma of 435 00:22:33,992 --> 00:22:36,792 Speaker 1: the abuse that she experienced at the hands of her family. 436 00:22:36,871 --> 00:22:42,071 Speaker 1: But I'm interested to know how Lisa's family handled you 437 00:22:43,272 --> 00:22:46,111 Speaker 1: turning their story as well into a movie, because it's not. 438 00:22:46,151 --> 00:22:47,231 Speaker 2: Just a story about Lisa. 439 00:22:47,311 --> 00:22:49,792 Speaker 1: There are other family members people who've been arrested and 440 00:22:49,831 --> 00:22:53,351 Speaker 1: sent to jail. And you know there's her mother and 441 00:22:53,391 --> 00:22:55,631 Speaker 1: her grandmother who are also involved in this story. Like 442 00:22:55,712 --> 00:22:57,592 Speaker 1: how was that received with her family? 443 00:22:58,272 --> 00:23:01,111 Speaker 3: Certainly her sister was aware of all of it. I 444 00:23:01,111 --> 00:23:04,151 Speaker 3: mean she was, you know, it's strange from certain members 445 00:23:04,151 --> 00:23:08,711 Speaker 3: her family. Her grandmother other had passed I believe by 446 00:23:08,752 --> 00:23:12,351 Speaker 3: the time we were making the film, and so it 447 00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:15,391 Speaker 3: was something that that she was aware of. And I 448 00:23:15,472 --> 00:23:17,151 Speaker 3: know that, you know, she obviously spoke to her family. 449 00:23:17,192 --> 00:23:19,831 Speaker 3: She had she had a screening of the movie as 450 00:23:19,871 --> 00:23:21,792 Speaker 3: it was coming out and invited a lot of her 451 00:23:21,792 --> 00:23:23,951 Speaker 3: family members to it. I mean speaking of sort of 452 00:23:23,952 --> 00:23:26,512 Speaker 3: crying when the film was over. I know that they 453 00:23:26,671 --> 00:23:28,792 Speaker 3: you know, one of the times I cried while making 454 00:23:28,792 --> 00:23:31,671 Speaker 3: this movie was the day after it aired and she'd 455 00:23:31,712 --> 00:23:35,552 Speaker 3: had essentially like her own friends and family screening in Tampa, 456 00:23:35,631 --> 00:23:38,232 Speaker 3: and she phoned me the next morning and she told 457 00:23:38,232 --> 00:23:39,752 Speaker 3: me that she liked it. She was happy, she was 458 00:23:39,752 --> 00:23:41,752 Speaker 3: happy with the movie. And it was such an emotional 459 00:23:41,831 --> 00:23:43,792 Speaker 3: release for me to know that she was happy and 460 00:23:43,831 --> 00:23:46,792 Speaker 3: her family was happy that I teared up just knowing 461 00:23:46,871 --> 00:23:49,471 Speaker 3: that that for her being able to show it to 462 00:23:49,512 --> 00:23:52,311 Speaker 3: her community and say this was my experience, and also, 463 00:23:52,712 --> 00:23:55,151 Speaker 3: you know, be proud of it and proud of the 464 00:23:55,192 --> 00:23:57,552 Speaker 3: way the film turned out. Meant a lot to me. 465 00:23:57,631 --> 00:24:00,071 Speaker 3: Some means a lot to me. So her family certainly knew. 466 00:24:00,111 --> 00:24:02,711 Speaker 3: I think, you know, she's come to a place now 467 00:24:02,831 --> 00:24:05,872 Speaker 3: where and again you should speak to Lisa. I don't 468 00:24:05,871 --> 00:24:07,992 Speaker 3: want to speak for her, but I think short place 469 00:24:08,032 --> 00:24:10,471 Speaker 3: now where she's really owns her story. You know, she 470 00:24:10,552 --> 00:24:12,631 Speaker 3: has gained the agency that you see her fighting to 471 00:24:12,752 --> 00:24:15,512 Speaker 3: gain as a young person and has it. And I 472 00:24:15,591 --> 00:24:18,552 Speaker 3: think that's now know how she lives. So the folks 473 00:24:18,591 --> 00:24:21,192 Speaker 3: that she was close to certainly knew, and I think 474 00:24:21,232 --> 00:24:23,591 Speaker 3: some other people had passed away and it was less 475 00:24:23,591 --> 00:24:24,471 Speaker 3: of an issue for her. 476 00:24:25,351 --> 00:24:27,232 Speaker 1: I guess the second act then is the abduction, but 477 00:24:27,311 --> 00:24:31,352 Speaker 1: the third act is her interaction with police and then 478 00:24:31,591 --> 00:24:35,712 Speaker 1: the subsequent investigation. How important was it, and I mean 479 00:24:35,871 --> 00:24:38,512 Speaker 1: the title of the film suggests that it was quite important. 480 00:24:39,591 --> 00:24:43,591 Speaker 1: In the aftermath of what happened to Lisa, she found 481 00:24:43,631 --> 00:24:47,351 Speaker 1: it very difficult to get people to believe what had 482 00:24:47,391 --> 00:24:51,912 Speaker 1: happened to her, even though the evidence looked pretty clear 483 00:24:51,952 --> 00:24:55,951 Speaker 1: that something terrible had happened. She had to fight because 484 00:24:55,992 --> 00:24:58,431 Speaker 1: she didn't look like the kind of victim that I 485 00:24:58,472 --> 00:25:00,792 Speaker 1: guess we would expect a young woman who'd been through 486 00:25:00,831 --> 00:25:03,831 Speaker 1: what she had been through should look like how important 487 00:25:03,952 --> 00:25:05,911 Speaker 1: was it to tell that part of the story and 488 00:25:05,992 --> 00:25:09,831 Speaker 1: what was that like to try and guide the people 489 00:25:09,911 --> 00:25:12,871 Speaker 1: in the film to react in the way a police 490 00:25:12,911 --> 00:25:16,232 Speaker 1: officer might have in that moment, because police are doing 491 00:25:16,272 --> 00:25:18,111 Speaker 1: the best that they can with the resources that they have, 492 00:25:18,351 --> 00:25:21,951 Speaker 1: but also they have been trained to react in certain ways. Also, like, 493 00:25:22,232 --> 00:25:26,752 Speaker 1: how how is it to try and create that scenario 494 00:25:27,831 --> 00:25:31,071 Speaker 1: with all those moving pieces, because police aren't always the enemy, 495 00:25:31,111 --> 00:25:33,792 Speaker 1: but they're not always the hero, are they're in this situation. 496 00:25:34,631 --> 00:25:38,391 Speaker 5: This was very structured in the scripts, and it was 497 00:25:38,591 --> 00:25:43,471 Speaker 5: very clear that, you know, we were respecting what actually 498 00:25:43,591 --> 00:25:47,111 Speaker 5: happened in nineteen eighty four. As I saw it when 499 00:25:47,151 --> 00:25:51,272 Speaker 5: I've just recently rewatched the film, it was one of 500 00:25:51,311 --> 00:25:54,232 Speaker 5: the parts of the film where I was most uncomfortable 501 00:25:54,272 --> 00:25:58,631 Speaker 5: because I was realizing that, you know, like it's hard 502 00:25:58,712 --> 00:26:01,951 Speaker 5: to believe that this is the way things were in 503 00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:04,911 Speaker 5: the eighties, but that's what this speaks to for me, 504 00:26:05,111 --> 00:26:08,512 Speaker 5: Like it kind of feels like everything has changed. It 505 00:26:08,631 --> 00:26:10,911 Speaker 5: kind of feels like, at least in the world we 506 00:26:11,111 --> 00:26:15,631 Speaker 5: know that people are more sensitive to victims speaking out. 507 00:26:16,032 --> 00:26:18,351 Speaker 4: People are more open to. 508 00:26:18,472 --> 00:26:22,472 Speaker 5: Listening and believing when someone has the courage to say, hey, 509 00:26:22,552 --> 00:26:25,631 Speaker 5: I've been a victim of a crime. 510 00:26:25,472 --> 00:26:27,311 Speaker 4: Here rape, all these things. 511 00:26:28,151 --> 00:26:32,032 Speaker 5: I think in the eighties it kind of felt like, well, 512 00:26:32,911 --> 00:26:37,272 Speaker 5: the complete opposite blame the victim, you know, Like there's 513 00:26:37,351 --> 00:26:40,511 Speaker 5: some really unnerving scenes, which I mean as I watch them, 514 00:26:40,591 --> 00:26:43,231 Speaker 5: my skin crawls, Like when she's talking to the female 515 00:26:43,351 --> 00:26:47,071 Speaker 5: detectives and they're completely convinced that she's in a fantasy 516 00:26:47,192 --> 00:26:49,151 Speaker 5: that hey, you watch a lot of cop shows, don't you, 517 00:26:49,272 --> 00:26:51,071 Speaker 5: and you know you're watching this thing. 518 00:26:51,111 --> 00:26:53,871 Speaker 4: You're going, how could they possibly be saying these things? 519 00:26:53,911 --> 00:26:56,311 Speaker 4: And yet this is based on truth. 520 00:26:56,431 --> 00:26:58,952 Speaker 1: When she don't sit down with female detectives, you kind 521 00:26:58,992 --> 00:27:01,911 Speaker 1: of think, oh, finally, yeah, they're gone. They of all 522 00:27:02,032 --> 00:27:03,552 Speaker 1: the people in this scenario are going to be the 523 00:27:03,591 --> 00:27:07,512 Speaker 1: ones who believe her, and then you're so disappointed when 524 00:27:07,552 --> 00:27:07,992 Speaker 1: they don't. 525 00:27:08,151 --> 00:27:11,232 Speaker 5: I mean, one of the things that is fun about 526 00:27:11,272 --> 00:27:12,871 Speaker 5: this for me as an experience is there were a 527 00:27:12,911 --> 00:27:16,671 Speaker 5: lot of people posting videos on TikTok about their reaction 528 00:27:16,831 --> 00:27:19,752 Speaker 5: to the film, and most of the ones I saw 529 00:27:20,272 --> 00:27:25,591 Speaker 5: were people just cry young ladies, especially young women crying 530 00:27:25,871 --> 00:27:26,431 Speaker 5: in tears. 531 00:27:27,552 --> 00:27:28,791 Speaker 4: Why didn't they believe her? 532 00:27:28,871 --> 00:27:31,031 Speaker 5: That was the thing that they seem to be all 533 00:27:31,192 --> 00:27:35,031 Speaker 5: latching onto, is that no one would believe her as 534 00:27:35,111 --> 00:27:38,191 Speaker 5: weird as that is, I mean, as strange as that 535 00:27:38,351 --> 00:27:40,231 Speaker 5: is to our ears today, because it's hard to believe, 536 00:27:41,232 --> 00:27:42,311 Speaker 5: but it's there. 537 00:27:42,472 --> 00:27:46,431 Speaker 1: It happens when you were making the part of the 538 00:27:46,512 --> 00:27:49,712 Speaker 1: movie where we look into the investigation that followed, when 539 00:27:50,111 --> 00:27:53,552 Speaker 1: they are starting to believe Lisa, and she does have 540 00:27:53,671 --> 00:27:56,311 Speaker 1: some advocates in the police force who do finally understand 541 00:27:56,351 --> 00:27:57,591 Speaker 1: what it is she's been through, and then they do 542 00:27:57,792 --> 00:28:00,671 Speaker 1: finally link her abduction to the serial killer. 543 00:28:02,311 --> 00:28:04,391 Speaker 2: It almost feels too hard. 544 00:28:04,311 --> 00:28:07,591 Speaker 1: To believe that Lisa managed to do what she did 545 00:28:07,792 --> 00:28:12,151 Speaker 1: while she was being held hostage. Like, I mean, Jeff, 546 00:28:12,151 --> 00:28:15,992 Speaker 1: you've told this story twice now, Like can you believe 547 00:28:16,151 --> 00:28:18,952 Speaker 1: that Lisa in the situation that she is in which 548 00:28:18,992 --> 00:28:21,671 Speaker 1: she was sadly uniquely qualified to deal with? But can 549 00:28:21,712 --> 00:28:24,351 Speaker 1: you believe that someone would have that presence of mind 550 00:28:25,192 --> 00:28:29,992 Speaker 1: whilst abducted, tied up, blindfolded, sexually abused to do the 551 00:28:30,111 --> 00:28:33,111 Speaker 1: things that she did to survive, Like it feels so 552 00:28:33,272 --> 00:28:35,871 Speaker 1: unbelievable that someone can be that strong of mind in 553 00:28:35,952 --> 00:28:36,792 Speaker 1: that in that moment. 554 00:28:37,952 --> 00:28:40,872 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's it's I think a large part 555 00:28:41,272 --> 00:28:44,632 Speaker 3: of why the story is as powerful as it is. 556 00:28:44,832 --> 00:28:48,191 Speaker 3: It's it's why Lisa is so impressive. You know, in 557 00:28:48,272 --> 00:28:51,112 Speaker 3: speaking with her, there's there's also a moment, you know, 558 00:28:51,152 --> 00:28:54,392 Speaker 3: I think, I think her detective work, I think her 559 00:28:54,671 --> 00:28:58,952 Speaker 3: active survival skills also go through an arc. I think, 560 00:28:59,032 --> 00:29:00,912 Speaker 3: you know, at the beginning, she's she's trying to gather 561 00:29:01,032 --> 00:29:03,791 Speaker 3: information and she's just trying to learn anything she can 562 00:29:03,911 --> 00:29:06,312 Speaker 3: that's going to help her survive. And then I think, 563 00:29:06,312 --> 00:29:08,191 Speaker 3: I think there's also a point and in speaking with 564 00:29:08,272 --> 00:29:11,512 Speaker 3: her and having talked to her about it and gone 565 00:29:11,592 --> 00:29:14,832 Speaker 3: through her interviews and things from the documentary, there's also 566 00:29:14,911 --> 00:29:19,152 Speaker 3: a point where I think she becomes determined that she 567 00:29:19,352 --> 00:29:21,951 Speaker 3: doesn't want what's happening to her to ever happen to 568 00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:24,872 Speaker 3: anyone else. And so part of the leaving the blood 569 00:29:24,911 --> 00:29:26,671 Speaker 3: in the car, part of the fingerprints, part of that 570 00:29:26,792 --> 00:29:28,152 Speaker 3: is like, if I don't make it out of this, 571 00:29:28,992 --> 00:29:30,832 Speaker 3: I want them to know that I was here and 572 00:29:30,872 --> 00:29:33,792 Speaker 3: I want him to be caught. And the heroism of 573 00:29:33,872 --> 00:29:35,632 Speaker 3: that and the presence of mind of that is so 574 00:29:35,752 --> 00:29:38,312 Speaker 3: impressive too. And then you go to the third layer 575 00:29:38,352 --> 00:29:40,432 Speaker 3: of it, which is when she is freed and does 576 00:29:40,472 --> 00:29:44,312 Speaker 3: she is able to escape and she meets Barry Pinkerton 577 00:29:44,352 --> 00:29:47,752 Speaker 3: who believes her she has the strength to go back 578 00:29:47,872 --> 00:29:49,711 Speaker 3: with them and do all of the stuff that she 579 00:29:49,832 --> 00:29:53,072 Speaker 3: has the strength to help them really crack the case. 580 00:29:53,671 --> 00:29:55,991 Speaker 3: It's incredible, It really is incredible, and it's a testament 581 00:29:56,072 --> 00:29:58,112 Speaker 3: to Lisa. And then it's also you know, at the 582 00:29:58,192 --> 00:30:01,752 Speaker 3: end of the movie suggests worth remembering too that she 583 00:30:01,872 --> 00:30:03,951 Speaker 3: then dedicates her life to helping other kids, like she 584 00:30:04,352 --> 00:30:06,592 Speaker 3: has spent her career now as a police officer or 585 00:30:07,232 --> 00:30:10,791 Speaker 3: working to protect other children. And it's amazing. I mean, 586 00:30:11,512 --> 00:30:13,592 Speaker 3: she's a real hero and a very special person. And 587 00:30:13,671 --> 00:30:15,992 Speaker 3: that's you know, a large part of why the movie 588 00:30:16,112 --> 00:30:19,312 Speaker 3: was made. That story is so incredible and hopefully inspiring 589 00:30:19,392 --> 00:30:19,952 Speaker 3: for other people. 590 00:30:20,671 --> 00:30:24,392 Speaker 1: Have you been tempted to revisit this story again because 591 00:30:24,392 --> 00:30:26,152 Speaker 1: there is so much more to it, And as you've 592 00:30:26,152 --> 00:30:28,632 Speaker 1: already said, you had to leave out certain parts of 593 00:30:28,712 --> 00:30:31,432 Speaker 1: the narrative because you do have only a ninety minute 594 00:30:31,472 --> 00:30:34,272 Speaker 1: window to tell this story in. But you know, long 595 00:30:34,512 --> 00:30:37,312 Speaker 1: was eventually it was uncovered that he was connected to 596 00:30:37,671 --> 00:30:42,632 Speaker 1: know ten homicides and various other rapes, and that it 597 00:30:42,712 --> 00:30:45,791 Speaker 1: was escalating very quickly over an eight month period up 598 00:30:45,832 --> 00:30:48,752 Speaker 1: until when he was arrested, and then you know, led 599 00:30:48,792 --> 00:30:53,031 Speaker 1: to his execution, which Lisa attended and you know defiantly 600 00:30:53,152 --> 00:30:55,911 Speaker 1: stood and waited for him to make eye contact with her, 601 00:30:55,992 --> 00:30:58,832 Speaker 1: which he sadly never did. For her story, But like, 602 00:30:58,911 --> 00:31:01,512 Speaker 1: I've even tempted to revisit this because there was just 603 00:31:01,632 --> 00:31:03,911 Speaker 1: so much more to this woman and her story and 604 00:31:03,992 --> 00:31:04,752 Speaker 1: everything around it. 605 00:31:06,592 --> 00:31:11,152 Speaker 5: Short answer, no, It's like it's like I have a 606 00:31:11,272 --> 00:31:16,152 Speaker 5: thing for the fascination that we have for these stories 607 00:31:16,392 --> 00:31:23,392 Speaker 5: where I have difficulty retelling the same story unless there's 608 00:31:23,431 --> 00:31:26,232 Speaker 5: a reason to, and I have a difficulty saying yes 609 00:31:26,352 --> 00:31:29,191 Speaker 5: to I find that there's two There's too many of 610 00:31:29,232 --> 00:31:33,152 Speaker 5: these films that repeat the same thing over and over again. 611 00:31:33,392 --> 00:31:35,672 Speaker 5: And to me, we told this story in a good way, 612 00:31:35,792 --> 00:31:39,032 Speaker 5: and it's a positive film. It's not just exploitative. It's 613 00:31:39,072 --> 00:31:43,632 Speaker 5: a story of resilience. It's a story of victory for her. 614 00:31:44,152 --> 00:31:46,992 Speaker 5: So I would not, at least I wouldn't tell this 615 00:31:47,152 --> 00:31:48,552 Speaker 5: part of the story. I don't know if there's a 616 00:31:48,632 --> 00:31:52,472 Speaker 5: part of it that would be intriguing or worth telling. 617 00:31:52,592 --> 00:31:55,031 Speaker 5: But there's got to be a reason we tell these stories. 618 00:31:55,671 --> 00:31:58,072 Speaker 5: As I said, I have a certain version to just 619 00:31:58,632 --> 00:32:05,672 Speaker 5: exploitatively going back to this darkness, so believe me is Yeah, 620 00:32:05,712 --> 00:32:08,951 Speaker 5: it's a dark but it's actually it's a story of 621 00:32:09,352 --> 00:32:11,992 Speaker 5: a victory of you know, good over your evil. 622 00:32:12,431 --> 00:32:13,632 Speaker 4: So I'm happy I made it. 623 00:32:13,792 --> 00:32:15,671 Speaker 1: I guess it's something we don't see very often in 624 00:32:15,792 --> 00:32:20,512 Speaker 1: the true crime space, is the real positivity that comes 625 00:32:20,552 --> 00:32:23,032 Speaker 1: from telling this story, because they often are, as you said, 626 00:32:23,112 --> 00:32:25,632 Speaker 1: really dark, and they don't really leave the darkness that often. 627 00:32:26,072 --> 00:32:28,711 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think in these days, especially in these times, 628 00:32:28,752 --> 00:32:31,711 Speaker 5: we need positive stories. So I guess I would have 629 00:32:31,872 --> 00:32:34,992 Speaker 5: to see if Jeff can find another angle to it 630 00:32:35,472 --> 00:32:40,312 Speaker 5: or maybe comes up with another script, and if he asks, 631 00:32:40,352 --> 00:32:41,552 Speaker 5: I might be tempted to do it. 632 00:32:42,472 --> 00:32:44,671 Speaker 2: What do you think, Jeff, would you revisit It's a. 633 00:32:44,752 --> 00:32:46,632 Speaker 3: Really loaded question in a lot of ways, And I 634 00:32:46,792 --> 00:32:50,672 Speaker 3: think part of it is having told it once as 635 00:32:50,671 --> 00:32:52,872 Speaker 3: a documentary, or help tell it once as a documentary, 636 00:32:52,952 --> 00:32:55,632 Speaker 3: and help tell it once as a scripted film. I'm 637 00:32:56,152 --> 00:32:59,751 Speaker 3: endlessly inspired by Lisa and I have so much respect 638 00:32:59,792 --> 00:33:01,512 Speaker 3: for her and just like like her as a person, 639 00:33:01,671 --> 00:33:03,232 Speaker 3: you know, in the run up to doing this, I 640 00:33:03,352 --> 00:33:05,072 Speaker 3: was emailing with her like I'm looking forward to talking 641 00:33:05,072 --> 00:33:07,312 Speaker 3: to her on the phone a couple days, Like she's great, 642 00:33:07,512 --> 00:33:09,872 Speaker 3: you know, and she's really really inspiring, And so that 643 00:33:09,952 --> 00:33:13,312 Speaker 3: part I really like. But there is also, as Jim 644 00:33:13,392 --> 00:33:16,911 Speaker 3: sort of alluded to, there's such darkness to this story 645 00:33:17,392 --> 00:33:20,752 Speaker 3: even though there's the inspiration, Like, there's probably a limit 646 00:33:20,832 --> 00:33:23,032 Speaker 3: to the number of times I want to film some 647 00:33:23,152 --> 00:33:26,072 Speaker 3: of those scenes. And you know, I've had the good 648 00:33:26,152 --> 00:33:29,912 Speaker 3: fortune to produce a few other movies based on true 649 00:33:29,952 --> 00:33:34,431 Speaker 3: stories and true crime projects, and when we do them, 650 00:33:34,472 --> 00:33:38,951 Speaker 3: we're always looking for the stories where ultimately they are inspiring. 651 00:33:39,032 --> 00:33:42,431 Speaker 3: I'm I think, just both for myself and for the 652 00:33:42,431 --> 00:33:44,032 Speaker 3: people who work on it, and also for the viewers 653 00:33:44,112 --> 00:33:47,232 Speaker 3: quite frankly for the audience members. You can go through 654 00:33:47,272 --> 00:33:49,272 Speaker 3: the darkness if you're able to give somebody some light 655 00:33:49,512 --> 00:33:52,712 Speaker 3: at the end. And I think that's partly why lisa 656 00:33:52,792 --> 00:33:54,511 Speaker 3: story resonates, is that she comes out into the light 657 00:33:54,632 --> 00:33:55,991 Speaker 3: and we all get to see that at the end. 658 00:33:56,392 --> 00:33:57,832 Speaker 3: But the older I get, and the more of them 659 00:33:57,872 --> 00:34:00,032 Speaker 3: I do, I think, the more cautious I am about 660 00:34:00,072 --> 00:34:02,512 Speaker 3: spending a lot of my waking hours in the darkness 661 00:34:02,832 --> 00:34:05,431 Speaker 3: and having spent ten years making documentaries and you know, 662 00:34:05,512 --> 00:34:08,032 Speaker 3: I've done that a fair bit, and you're just it 663 00:34:08,112 --> 00:34:10,352 Speaker 3: does eventually begin taking a toll on you to just 664 00:34:10,352 --> 00:34:11,911 Speaker 3: spend a lot of time thinking about that. I mean, 665 00:34:11,952 --> 00:34:13,792 Speaker 3: you can speaking of a ross if you know it 666 00:34:13,872 --> 00:34:18,032 Speaker 3: took a toll on Rossof. Rossof is a really sweet, sensitive, smart, 667 00:34:18,592 --> 00:34:22,151 Speaker 3: you know father who in order to play Bobby Joe 668 00:34:22,232 --> 00:34:24,031 Speaker 3: Long had to go to a very dark place. And 669 00:34:24,152 --> 00:34:27,431 Speaker 3: you see that even just in the relatively short term 670 00:34:27,511 --> 00:34:29,991 Speaker 3: of our production. And so it's a bit of a 671 00:34:30,031 --> 00:34:31,951 Speaker 3: loaded question one I'm probably not answering well, but I 672 00:34:31,991 --> 00:34:33,511 Speaker 3: think that's it. It's like it you have to think 673 00:34:33,592 --> 00:34:35,352 Speaker 3: long and hard about whether or not you're going to 674 00:34:35,392 --> 00:34:37,632 Speaker 3: go back and spend more time in that place. 675 00:34:38,672 --> 00:34:40,631 Speaker 5: I'll take a swipe at a at a coda here, 676 00:34:41,112 --> 00:34:44,112 Speaker 5: and it would take great courage. But the other film 677 00:34:44,471 --> 00:34:47,832 Speaker 5: to make, if there is one, would be about Bobby 678 00:34:47,911 --> 00:34:48,312 Speaker 5: Joe Long. 679 00:34:49,431 --> 00:34:51,832 Speaker 4: What compels a guy to do what he did? 680 00:34:53,152 --> 00:34:55,712 Speaker 5: I mean, if we really want to talk about it, 681 00:34:56,471 --> 00:34:58,952 Speaker 5: you know, there was there was a film made about 682 00:34:59,031 --> 00:35:03,312 Speaker 5: Hitler called Downfall, and it was quite controversial. People were 683 00:35:03,312 --> 00:35:07,352 Speaker 5: accusing the filmmakers of humanizing Hitler, but it was a 684 00:35:07,431 --> 00:35:10,712 Speaker 5: very courageous film. And I think as a society, if 685 00:35:10,752 --> 00:35:15,671 Speaker 5: we can't understand what compels people to do the ugly 686 00:35:15,752 --> 00:35:19,392 Speaker 5: things that they do, then we're copping out. There's always 687 00:35:19,431 --> 00:35:22,832 Speaker 5: a dark side, Okay, what I mean again? Researching this character? 688 00:35:23,832 --> 00:35:27,031 Speaker 4: What pushed him? How did he? How do you get there? 689 00:35:27,112 --> 00:35:28,792 Speaker 5: I mean, these are questions that we had to ask 690 00:35:28,872 --> 00:35:32,712 Speaker 5: ourselves and ross if in our story. But that is 691 00:35:32,792 --> 00:35:35,151 Speaker 5: not a film that's easy to make or easy to watch, 692 00:35:35,911 --> 00:35:40,111 Speaker 5: you know. And again it's maybe that's the question mark. 693 00:35:40,752 --> 00:35:43,792 Speaker 4: Is there more? Is there more to learn from the 694 00:35:43,872 --> 00:35:46,672 Speaker 4: villains in these stories? Why did you do this? You know? 695 00:35:47,352 --> 00:35:49,511 Speaker 5: Or can it be understood? Can it be helped? Can 696 00:35:49,592 --> 00:35:52,591 Speaker 5: it be is there any point to it? I mean, 697 00:35:52,632 --> 00:35:54,991 Speaker 5: these are all big questions. But you know, maybe that's 698 00:35:55,031 --> 00:35:56,672 Speaker 5: a part two to my answer. 699 00:35:57,232 --> 00:36:00,631 Speaker 1: I think you've probably hit on something there because it's 700 00:36:00,911 --> 00:36:04,352 Speaker 1: pretty well known that women are rather large consumers of 701 00:36:04,431 --> 00:36:06,792 Speaker 1: true crime content, and I think I think a lot 702 00:36:06,832 --> 00:36:10,872 Speaker 1: of that is trying to learn and understand the motivations 703 00:36:10,911 --> 00:36:14,272 Speaker 1: of men, in particular when they are the perpetrator, and 704 00:36:14,392 --> 00:36:17,512 Speaker 1: that is something I think we don't get from the film. 705 00:36:17,551 --> 00:36:19,392 Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit more from the documentary, but we 706 00:36:19,511 --> 00:36:22,232 Speaker 1: don't understand his motives. We don't understand why he did 707 00:36:22,272 --> 00:36:24,352 Speaker 1: what he did or where he came from. And I 708 00:36:24,471 --> 00:36:27,872 Speaker 1: think that's probably the one thing that true crime does 709 00:36:27,951 --> 00:36:30,951 Speaker 1: for women in particular, as we get an understanding and 710 00:36:31,232 --> 00:36:33,832 Speaker 1: maybe we can then identify it in people around us 711 00:36:34,592 --> 00:36:38,151 Speaker 1: and maybe better protect ourselves from someone like Bobby Joe Long. 712 00:36:38,192 --> 00:36:40,792 Speaker 1: I think that might be why we get so much 713 00:36:40,832 --> 00:36:43,031 Speaker 1: out of true crime. So maybe that is it is 714 00:36:43,072 --> 00:36:45,432 Speaker 1: an understanding of his motivations in his past. 715 00:36:45,951 --> 00:36:48,672 Speaker 5: Well, there's a film that I mean, it's a stretch, 716 00:36:48,792 --> 00:36:53,312 Speaker 5: but this film, or this four part miniseries called Adolescence, 717 00:36:53,352 --> 00:36:57,712 Speaker 5: I think on Netflix that would be I guess what 718 00:36:57,792 --> 00:37:00,192 Speaker 5: I'm alluding to is to you know, you're left with 719 00:37:00,272 --> 00:37:05,551 Speaker 5: these really conflicting feelings about what happened, what you just saw. 720 00:37:06,392 --> 00:37:10,112 Speaker 4: You're asking yourself the questions, you know, and so that's. 721 00:37:10,112 --> 00:37:13,872 Speaker 5: You know, like in these films, you know, there is 722 00:37:14,072 --> 00:37:16,712 Speaker 5: maybe that part of the story that is still we 723 00:37:16,792 --> 00:37:20,592 Speaker 5: don't understand. No, I don't think none of us really understood, 724 00:37:20,712 --> 00:37:22,951 Speaker 5: or there's some of it in the script when she 725 00:37:23,072 --> 00:37:27,551 Speaker 5: gets into Bobby Joelong's head and she starts to find 726 00:37:27,632 --> 00:37:32,432 Speaker 5: that crack that'll get her free, but otherwise almost nothing. 727 00:37:32,592 --> 00:37:32,752 Speaker 4: You know. 728 00:37:32,832 --> 00:37:35,112 Speaker 5: It's just kind of as much as we tried to 729 00:37:35,192 --> 00:37:37,912 Speaker 5: make him a compelling character for the purposes of telling 730 00:37:37,991 --> 00:37:42,152 Speaker 5: her heroic journey, we still don't understand this guy, and 731 00:37:42,511 --> 00:37:44,192 Speaker 5: maybe we don't want to, maybe we don't need to, 732 00:37:44,511 --> 00:37:45,551 Speaker 5: certainly not for this film. 733 00:37:46,632 --> 00:37:47,991 Speaker 4: But that's of course. 734 00:37:48,112 --> 00:37:52,471 Speaker 5: Yeah, is there a story that would help us help them, 735 00:37:53,031 --> 00:37:54,591 Speaker 5: I don't know, something like that. 736 00:37:58,832 --> 00:38:01,071 Speaker 1: After I wrapped up this conversation with Jim and Jeff, 737 00:38:01,272 --> 00:38:04,031 Speaker 1: they realized they hadn't mentioned the detective who helped Lisa 738 00:38:04,112 --> 00:38:07,471 Speaker 1: discover who her rapist and who this real killer really was, 739 00:38:07,911 --> 00:38:10,312 Speaker 1: and they call him the second hero of this story. 740 00:38:10,712 --> 00:38:14,912 Speaker 1: Sergeant Larry Pinkerton assigned himself to Lisa's case when others 741 00:38:14,951 --> 00:38:17,591 Speaker 1: had dismissed her claims, many saying they couldn't believe that 742 00:38:17,672 --> 00:38:20,432 Speaker 1: someone who had so much intimate detail of the crimes 743 00:38:20,471 --> 00:38:23,911 Speaker 1: against her could be possibly telling the truth. Jim and 744 00:38:24,031 --> 00:38:26,511 Speaker 1: Jeff knew that Pinkerton had to be played by someone 745 00:38:26,551 --> 00:38:29,352 Speaker 1: who was known in Hollywood as a trustworthy man, a 746 00:38:29,431 --> 00:38:32,552 Speaker 1: man who could embody the essence of the one person 747 00:38:32,592 --> 00:38:35,991 Speaker 1: who trusted Lisa, who listened to her and in partnership 748 00:38:36,031 --> 00:38:38,551 Speaker 1: with her, helped catch a killer, and that's why they 749 00:38:38,672 --> 00:38:42,752 Speaker 1: chose Jagstar David James Eliot. Thank you to Jim and 750 00:38:42,792 --> 00:38:45,591 Speaker 1: Jeff for helping us tell this story. True Crime Conversations 751 00:38:45,792 --> 00:38:48,592 Speaker 1: is a podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced 752 00:38:48,632 --> 00:38:51,312 Speaker 1: by Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown. 753 00:38:51,991 --> 00:38:53,152 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening. 754 00:38:53,312 --> 00:38:55,071 Speaker 1: Next week, as I mentioned earlier, we're going to be 755 00:38:55,152 --> 00:38:58,872 Speaker 1: speaking with Lisa herself. We'll hear about her lived experience 756 00:38:58,951 --> 00:39:02,031 Speaker 1: of surviving a serial killer. What she did that day 757 00:39:02,072 --> 00:39:05,671 Speaker 1: in the weeks after is absolutely incredible and we are 758 00:39:05,872 --> 00:39:07,951 Speaker 1: very thanks, thankful with Lisa for being so. 759 00:39:08,072 --> 00:39:11,232 Speaker 2: Open with us in her first ever podcast interview. We'll 760 00:39:11,272 --> 00:39:11,951 Speaker 2: see you next week.