1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: For nearly half a century, Australia was engaged in a 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: shameful and shocking practice that would tear babies from the 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: arms of their mothers, sometimes before they ever even laid 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: eyes on their precious little faces. For decades, women who 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: found themselves pregnant without a husband to protect them in 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: this country would be subject to a society that shunned 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: them for their immoral behavior, who rejected them for not 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: being a good girl, who believed that their babies were 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: better off being raised by a married couple. Some were arrested, 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: forced into labor homes until their due dates. Some were 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: coerced into signing papers they thought were to discharge them, 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: only to later find out it was for an adoption. 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Some just did as they were told, knowing they had 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: little power in a system where the doctors, nur vers, 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: social workers, and religious authorities held all the cards. When 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: those taken babies eventually grew up, they would find out 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: that they weren't given up, but essentially stolen, and for 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: many of these mothers and children, it would create fractures 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: that have never healed, and the fight for recognition and 20 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: justice continues. For journalists, Amelia Oberhart, seeing a strange picture 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: of her late mother at her wake, posing with a 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: man she didn't know, a baby in her arms. She 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: wondered if her own family was a victim of this 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: systemic violence against single women that happened to countless others 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: spanning the decades from the nineteen forties to the nineteen eighties. 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: Could that little one in the photo be a long 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: lost sibling? Was her own mum one of those victimized 28 00:01:52,280 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: by the attitudes of the times. I'm Claire Murphy and 29 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: this is True Crime Conversations, a Mumma Mere podcast exploring 30 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people 31 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: who know the most about them. For those who remember 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: then Prime Minister Julia Gillard's apology in Parliament in twenty thirteen, 33 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: it may have been the first time you'd heard about 34 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: the process of forced adoptions, a practice that occurred in 35 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: maternity hospitals across the country from the nineteen forties through 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: to the nineteen eighties here in Australia. 37 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: No collection of words alone can undo all this damage 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: or make hold the lives of families fractured by forced adoption. 39 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: But by saying sorry, we can correct the historical record. 40 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: We can declare that these mothers did nothing wrong. 41 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: This is not the apology to the star all in 42 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: Generations by then PM Kevin Rudd in two thousand and eight. 43 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: Although there are many similarities in these two shocking practices, 44 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: they are the same but are also very different. In 45 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: forced adoptions, young women from many different cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds, 46 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: from the poorest to the wealthy, found themselves in similar situations, 47 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: sometimes without anyone to support them, finding that the men 48 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: who had impregnated them were either not wanting to take 49 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: responsibility or were locked out of the process due to 50 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: them not being officially married. Sometimes these young women kicked 51 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: out of their homes by parents too ashamed to admit 52 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: their daughter had had sex outside of marriage. The hospitals 53 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: would organize for a married couple who were looking to 54 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: adopt to take a baby born of an unwed woman, 55 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: but while some willingly gave their children up for adoption, 56 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: many did not. The ways in which these women were 57 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: lied to, coerced, threatened, and shamed have left many of 58 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: them broken and angry, and the children, who are the 59 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: innocent byproduct of a time are themselves confused and looking 60 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: for answers that remain hidden behind walls of documented secrecy. 61 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: Amelia Oberhart has been documenting the journey of her discoveries 62 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: about her mother's life before she was born in her 63 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: podcast Secrets We Keep Shame, Lies and Family. 64 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 3: I'm Amelia Oberhart. I'm a journalist from Brisbane. The photo 65 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 3: of my mom made me realize I never really knew 66 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 3: her at all. I've spent over a decade trying to 67 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: find answers and some sort of closure over my mom's 68 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: early death. In that process, I found out much more 69 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 3: about the time she was living through. 70 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: And in the process of unveiling her own story, found 71 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: the buried stories of women whose numbers will shock you, 72 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: she joins us. Now, so, Amelia, let's go back to 73 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of where this story started for you. Because 74 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: you're at your mum's wake it's more than a decade 75 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: ago now, and your friend has quite generously helped you 76 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: put together a slideshow of photos from your mum's collection, 77 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: and this picture pops up of a teenage version of 78 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: your mother standing next or another young man holding a baby. 79 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: She's wearing a wedding ring. You look at this and 80 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: you say to your friend, who the hell is this man? 81 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: And who is this baby? Now, obviously through the journey 82 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: of your podcast you have figured that story out, But 83 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: at that time, and in that moment, in the moments 84 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: immediately after, where did your mind take you? What stories 85 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: were you telling yourself as to what was happening in 86 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: this photo? Because your mum is holding this little baby 87 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: like it's her own. 88 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 3: It looked like a family portrait. And when I turned 89 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: to my best friend asked, and she said, that's your 90 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 3: mum and your dad and you as a baby. And 91 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: I looked at her and she says, to me, now 92 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: the look on my face when I said, that's not 93 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: my dad and that's not me, and we both sort 94 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 3: of it that moment turned around and stared into the 95 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 3: eyes of all the family and friends. Jaws were on 96 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: the floor, and everyone was quite rattled by the photo, 97 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 3: and I could tell straight away it wasn't meant to 98 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: be in there. We continue to watch the slide show, 99 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: but in that moment, they knew I was going to 100 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 3: start asking. I could see those wheels turning around me. 101 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: I saw a few of my mum's friends approach family members, 102 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: and I could see that it was already being discussed. 103 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 3: What's the story we're going to tell her obviously that 104 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: whole album was never meant to make it to daylight, 105 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: And it was actually up the back of the cupboard. 106 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 4: In her bedroom. 107 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: We were all up at the Sunshine Coast because that's 108 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 3: where she'd passed away, and my friend had come back 109 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 3: from New York and had gone to her home and 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: was getting photos together and she spotted this random photo 111 00:06:59,480 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 3: of them. 112 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 4: That's where the photos or were. 113 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: So the fact that out of all the thousands of 114 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: photos in her bedroom, this one made it into the slideshow, 115 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: It's like she wanted it to be there. 116 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: So what story did you tell yourself before you started 117 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: to find out the real details of where that photo 118 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: originated in the story behind it? 119 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: I think because we'd done the death certificate the day before, 120 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: and they had asked the question of you know, normal things, 121 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 3: first name, last name, date of birth, and then they 122 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: said how many marriages, and me and my brother said one, 123 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: and the family said two. And then he said age 124 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 3: at first marriage and they said sixteen. Because I had 125 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: never ever ever heard that she'd ever been married before, 126 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: and let alone as a teenager. I had already sort 127 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: of sparked something. Something was already going plus grief, plus 128 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: organizing a funeral, plus not sleeping, all those sort of things. 129 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: Then when that photo came up, my immediate thought was, 130 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: this is the first husband and that is their baby. 131 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: The fact then that that photo came back the next day, 132 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: timestamped nineteen seventy three, making seventeen, I couldn't fathom the 133 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: coincidence of her being married at that age, of it 134 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: never coming to light, and of this photo being timestamped 135 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: holding a newborn baby exactly at the age she would 136 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 3: have had it. I mean, I think I originally thought 137 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 3: that baby is a family member. She's had that baby, 138 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 3: and then it's been rearranged into the family somehow. 139 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 4: That was my first thought. 140 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: So obviously your first questions go to your mum's family 141 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: to figure out what's going on here. In your mind, 142 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: you're wondering, if you have a long lost sibling, what 143 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: stories do they start to tell you about this photo. 144 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: Her family are a very Catholic, extremely private family for 145 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 3: those reasons. I don't even know if they would know. 146 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: There's a lot of siblings and huge gaps in age. 147 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: There was a mixture of answers. Some people in the 148 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 3: very close family circle told me she had a baby 149 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 3: and it died at one and then the other story 150 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 3: was that there was never a baby, and then there 151 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 3: was a story that she had a miscarriage. 152 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: So there was a. 153 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 3: Very strange dynamic happening. But also at the same time, 154 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: I was just constantly being told to stop asking questions, 155 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: let it go, stop asking questions. You're crazy, you know, 156 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: there's nothing to it. Move on with your life. And 157 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: I kept getting mixed answers from her close friends that 158 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 3: were saying similar things that she had had a baby 159 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: in it had died, or you know, that they just 160 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: didn't see her for a period of two years of 161 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: her life. She essentially went missing and no one had 162 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 3: seen or heard from her. Someone else said she'd been 163 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 3: pulled out of school halfway through the year and no 164 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: one knew where she went. So there was just so 165 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: many mixed messages coming from everywhere, and no one would 166 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 3: give me a straight answer. And I think, as a 167 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: benefit to all the women that ended up on this podcast, 168 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: it's lucky that no one gave me a straight answer. 169 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: But it all could have been solved very easily if 170 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: this whole idea of donas, don't tell and we don't 171 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: talk about anything, throw everything under a rug and stamp 172 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: on it. If that hadn't existed, maybe she'd still be alive. 173 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: And also maybe I would have had my answer twelve 174 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 3: years ago. 175 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: When did you start to entertain the idea that your 176 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: mom might have been one of the many, many Australian 177 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: women who were caught up in a process known as 178 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: forced adoption. It's what we call it now. Back then 179 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: it was a very different story. When did you start 180 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: to entertain the idea that she might have been caught 181 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: up in that. 182 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 3: Over the years, as I started to ask a lot 183 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: of questions, I also was met often with people that 184 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: had these stories where they'd say, that's quite likely, you know, 185 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 3: because my cousin ended up being my sister, or you 186 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 3: know that my mom's mom was actually her sister and 187 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 3: it was her grandmother that brought her up. I started 188 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 3: to recognize very quickly every single person I hypothesized my 189 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: mom's outcome with had a story or knew someone with 190 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 3: a story, and I started to think, this could have 191 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: happened to my mom. The Catholic there's these informal adoptions 192 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 3: taking place left, right and center. There's rearrangements in families 193 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 3: happening all over the place. It is extremely likely that 194 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 3: she was pregnant obviously forced to get married, and then 195 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: that they couldn't handle it, or they were too young, 196 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: or something's happened and they've had to give away the baby. 197 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: I mean, that's what I had thought, well up until 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 3: we started the podcast. 199 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: What insight did you get during this time where you're 200 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: investigating into your mum's early life and the influences that 201 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: religious institutions had on her and the decisions that she 202 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: would have had to have made during her younger years. 203 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 3: My mom passed away from alcoholism, and anyone that's no 204 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: one ll loved someone with an addiction knows the varying 205 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: ways relationships breakdown, and also the desperation you feel in 206 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: wanting to understand why, why did this take a grip? 207 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 3: Why are you no longer here? I think in seeking 208 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 3: out her earlier life, I started to understand her because 209 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: the last part of her life, in which normally people 210 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: have those conversations, she was quite far gone. But I 211 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: started to see her as this bright, vivacious young girl 212 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: who was very popular and very smart and found herself 213 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: in an impossible situation where she discovered she was pregnant, 214 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: and that had come from some close friends of hers 215 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 3: that Tommy, they were with her when she found out. 216 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: She was obviously then taken to the family home and 217 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: then locked away from everyone for a while while decisions 218 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: were made and things were arranged for the wedding. Is 219 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: what I've been told, And I mean putting myself in 220 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: a position of being sixteen and pregnant, how terrified. Having 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 3: come also from a devout Catholic home in which morals 222 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 3: standing and the Bible and the Church is your overrarching 223 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: everyday sense of morality is coming from the Church and 224 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 3: your parents feeding you that every day. So to have 225 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: committed the sin of sex outside of marriage, committed a 226 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 3: sin where you're now unwed and pregnant and you're sixteen 227 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 3: or seventeen. When I hear about it, I can feel 228 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: the shame she would have felt. That's not how society 229 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: works now. But then the shame that they likened being 230 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 3: unwed and pregnant too was you were better off being 231 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 3: a murderer, and that sort of comprehension that that's the 232 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 3: way that social standings looked at you. It's so hard 233 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: to get your head around. 234 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: So many years pass and you're still asking questions, but 235 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: your mum actually gives you the tools to unlock the 236 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: mystery because she has left the name of the man 237 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: that she married in documents for you to trace. Tell 238 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: me about finding the man in the photo. 239 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: I obviously had a copy of the death certificate, and 240 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 3: on the death certificate it read Michael Davies. I mean, 241 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,599 Speaker 3: Michael Davies couldn't be a more common name in Queensland, 242 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 3: and that was assuming he still lived in Queensland. So, 243 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 3: you know, as I had children of my own, I 244 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: really would go on these tangents of desperately trying to 245 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 3: find him because I think I was trying to rectify 246 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 3: with myself the mom I didn't want to be, and 247 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: in order to be the mom I wanted to be, 248 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 3: I needed to heal this wound or understand her. So 249 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: every time I had a child, I would start googling. 250 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: And that was over nine years. I've had kids, not 251 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: nine of them, just three and nine years. So over 252 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: the nine years, you know, i'd Google him and LinkedIn, 253 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: and as technology evolved in more things like Instagram came 254 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 3: about or LinkedIn, I guess as an example of something 255 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 3: that I didn't have when I started, I still couldn't 256 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: find him. We ended up going down to the state archives, 257 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: and there I trolled through every divorce because it was 258 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: all public record through the Supreme Court until nineteen seventy six, 259 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: found a Davy's divorce. Out of every single file in there, 260 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 3: the Davies divorce that had their same initials was the 261 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: only file that was missing by a clerical error, they 262 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 3: told me anyway, So that was a dead end. Then 263 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: I ended up trolling the electoral role. I had an 264 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: idea that that the photo that we found was taken 265 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: on the balcony of their home. A family member had 266 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: told me, oh, this is where they lived at Irana Hills, 267 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 3: and so I knew they'd lived at Irana Hills. I 268 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: knew I had a name, and I found them on 269 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 3: the electoral role. I traced them on the electoral role 270 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: for a while. Then you know, he falls off in 271 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty two or something. He must have moved somewhere else. 272 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: So yeah, I'd gone through all these process I'd gone 273 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: to burst ess and marriages. I'd gone to the church 274 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: in which they got married, and that's where I got 275 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 3: the marriage certificate. Once I had the marriage certificate. I 276 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: had way more details, and then obviously pitched the podcast, 277 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: got it up and running, and they found him within 278 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 3: like an hour. 279 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,359 Speaker 4: So I was like, Nys. 280 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: I've been knowing this for twelve years, so it just 281 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 3: goes to show, you know, good producers make everything. So yeah, 282 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: they found him, and then we contacted him and I 283 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: flew to Cans and met with him. 284 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: So you head up to Cans to see the man 285 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: in the picture. Were you nervous to now, after all 286 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: this time, find out exactly what had happened with your mom? 287 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 3: Back then, I was like sick to my stomach, and 288 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: you know, equal parts wanted to run away and can 289 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 3: the whole thing and be like, I don't want to 290 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: do this anymore. And equal parts knew I was either 291 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 3: going there to find a long lost sibling or I 292 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 3: was going there to find closure, and either way, I 293 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: knew I had to go and I had to piece 294 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: together the puzzle in its entirety for my own benefit, 295 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 3: for my children's benefit, and for my future because it 296 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 3: had just played with me for so long. So I 297 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: was sick to my stomach with anxiety and definitely wanted 298 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: to run away, but sort of just tried to chune 299 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 3: out as much as I could till I got there, 300 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 3: And when I got there, I just rambled. 301 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 4: I got the answers. It was the best thing I 302 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 4: ever did, for sure. 303 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: All Right, tell us what happened to your mum? Who 304 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: is the baby in the picture, and what did the 305 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: man in the picture explain to you had actually happened? 306 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: Putting together all of those rumors that you'd been told 307 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: from various family members. 308 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: So varying degrees of it were true, she'd sort of 309 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 3: run away from home. They'd found themselves pregnant. She was well, 310 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 3: he says, sixteen, but just turned seventeen. She finds herself pregnant. 311 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: Quite far along, they go and tell both their sets 312 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 3: of parents, who were devout Catholics on both sides, and 313 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: they decided that they would get married. She was locked 314 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 3: away for a period of time, and then his mother 315 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 3: and my grandmother called him to tell him she'd had 316 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: a late miscarriage and was in hospital. And he says 317 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: he doesn't really know any of the details. It was 318 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: all being handled by the mums. I mean retrospectively. I 319 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 3: think he's remembered some more details around it. But yes, 320 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: she had a miscarriage and ended up in hospital for 321 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: a considerable amount of time, and then they were still 322 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 3: forced to go ahead with the marriage. I think he's 323 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: a beautiful man and a divine human, but I think 324 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: that she would have thought that now she'd lost the baby, 325 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: the marriage would not have to go ahead, But because 326 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 3: of the shame and the Catholics and all of that, 327 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: it was made to go ahead. And I think that 328 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 3: that did inevitably create some problems in her life. 329 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: We'll touch on that again a little bit later, but 330 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: through all of this you start to uncover stories of 331 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: women who had found themselves in a very similar situation 332 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: to your mum back in the sixties and seventies, very young, 333 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: either still a teenager or in the early twenties. They're 334 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: not married back then, as you mentioned, very shameful from 335 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: a societal perspective. But some of these women have different 336 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: endings to your mum's story in that they did give 337 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: birth to a little baby. And one of the first 338 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: women that you spoke to about this die revealed to 339 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: you details of a story that could potentially be told 340 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of times by Australian women 341 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: during those decades. What did I tell you? 342 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: I told me that she'd found herself in Sydney and pregnant. 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 3: She was training to be a veteran surgeon and was 344 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 3: working for a Catholic doctor. She didn't tell anyone she 345 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: was pregnant and didn't really know what was going to 346 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 3: happen because women back then were so uneducated in sexual 347 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: education and birth, so they really had no idea what 348 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 3: was coming for her. And then she went into labor. 349 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 3: The Catholic doctor takes her to the hospital and it's 350 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 3: there she thinks he made them aware of her situation, 351 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 3: which was that she was single or unwared. 352 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: So this guy was her boss at that stage. 353 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 3: Yep. She then gives birth on a sterile, stainless steel bench. 354 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 3: The baby's ripped away from her. She's left bleeding and 355 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: lying on a steel bench alone, shivering. And you know 356 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 3: when she talks in the podcast about how cold she was, 357 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: she physically started shivering while she was telling me. That's 358 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 3: how visceral the response was to even voicing what had happened. 359 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 3: She genuinely started shaking. And then someone comes in at 360 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 3: some point and says, your baby's died. 361 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 4: You can go home. 362 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: Sign these discharge papers, go on with your life, and 363 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 3: so she tried to go on with her life. She 364 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: told not a soul, not one single person in the world. 365 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 4: The father of that. 366 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: Baby was in Canada. She just didn't see a reason. 367 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 3: What was the point. She'd lost the baby tragically and 368 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 3: she had to move on. And forty years later, she's 369 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 3: sitting with her son on a couch having their nightly 370 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 3: cup of tea, and she gets an email, and that 371 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: email's title is I Think you could be my mother. 372 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: And in that email, a man goes on to describe 373 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: details of his birth at the time where it was. 374 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: She said, her entire body just went into a state 375 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 3: of shock. And at the bottom is a photo. He says, 376 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 3: this is a photo of my granddaughter. I've always wanted 377 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 3: to know where she got her hair. And I sits 378 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: down and looks across at a picture of herself at 379 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 3: four and looks at this little girl and they could 380 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: have been twins. And I mean that story it was 381 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: haunting and terribly, terribly sad and not uncommon. And since 382 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: Die's story, we've heard from hundreds of women that were 383 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 3: told their babies had died or were disabled or needed 384 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 3: to go to orphanages for whatever reason, only to find 385 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 3: out that wasn't the case. 386 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: So these discharge papers that Die was signing to allow 387 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: her to leave hospital, were they actually discharged papers? 388 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 4: No, they were adoption papers. 389 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: Has she ever tried to look back into her situation 390 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: and find out how that could have happened? 391 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 3: I think they all, in their own ways go about 392 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 3: trying to find peace with the situation. It's very hard 393 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 3: because the government, religious organizations, doctors and hospitals and medical 394 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 3: professionals all working in tandem, and it's very hard to 395 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: pin what happened, what went wrong, who's our tru fault 396 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: was it? And a lot of files went missing in 397 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 3: floods or extenuating circumstances. They were handwritten files. There was 398 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 3: often clerical errors where birth dates were recorded wrong so 399 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 3: that they would never be able to trace each other. 400 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: In Die's case, on the adoption papers of her son, 401 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: she was able to see them. He knew he had 402 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 3: been adopted, and the papers gave some minimal detail about 403 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 3: Die Smart wears glasses or something and is unwed, and 404 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: they were the details and Die not even Diane, you know, 405 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: just that was all he had when he turned eighteen 406 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: to find out where he was from, and she had nothing. 407 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: How does he then find out that she is his mother? 408 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: If that's all the detail that he has to go on. 409 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 3: He went through ancestry dot Com. His wife had tried 410 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: to get him to do it over a period of time, 411 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: and yes, he agreed to do it. He was matched 412 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: to his father in Canada's brother, and he says, there 413 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: was a woman that worked here. She broke in horses 414 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: on our property and her name was Die, and she 415 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: wanted to be a veterinary surgeon. So he comes back 416 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: to Australia and he googles Die veterinary surgeon and thousands 417 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 3: of Die veterinary surgeons come up. But right in the 418 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 3: middle is a picture of Die who has this amazing 419 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 3: curly hair. And he knew then that's my mum because 420 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 3: his daughter had that exact hair. 421 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: What's it like for Dye to reunite with a son 422 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: that she never even thought had a life. It must 423 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: be incredibly difficult to reorientate your entire life's history to 424 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: understand that this person has been alive and in the 425 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: world this whole time. 426 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 3: I think it's impossible for me to ever be able 427 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: to articulate how dye must feel because I've never been 428 00:23:51,840 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 3: in that position. What she describes is just complete disorientation, joy, sorrow, pain, anger, 429 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: but elation. Oh my god, you know, I get another shot. 430 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: This person's alive, I have another son, I have grandchildren, 431 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 3: you know. But all of that process, she just says, 432 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 3: it's sometimes too hard to actually process. And you know, 433 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: she's going through all the right avenues in terms of 434 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 3: that's why she told her story and being able to 435 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: talk freely about it and lift the shame and lift 436 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 3: that I guess head fuck that it is. And she's, yeah, 437 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: desperately trying to get it all together. But you know, 438 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,239 Speaker 3: he was very receptive to her meeting her. They are 439 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: still in each other's lives. A lot of the stories 440 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 3: don't end as well as dies. A lot of the 441 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: stories people romanticize what a reunion will be. They romanticize 442 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 3: what their mum will look like and whether they have 443 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: the same traits. You know, is my daughter out there 444 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: with my hair? But the reality is you're trying to 445 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: undo forty years of being told you were abandoned or rejected, 446 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: or that somebody else chose you, and regardless of the 447 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 3: language around how you were chosen. It's all abandonment, you know. 448 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 3: At some point there is this feeling of, well, someone 449 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 3: didn't want me because someone else chose me, you know, 450 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 3: and I think that finding out actually you weren't abandoned. 451 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: I desperately wanted you. I was screaming for you. They 452 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 3: wouldn't let me see you or hold you. They drugged me, 453 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 3: they took you away and told me you died or whatever. 454 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: The circumstance, which is two hundred and fifty thousand women's stories, 455 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 3: that child has spent its entire life not knowing that 456 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 3: was the circumstance. No one was told, well, your mum 457 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 3: was drugged and forced to sign some papers and then 458 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 3: I took you home. They were always told you were 459 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: chosen by us because we loved you. And that's not 460 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 3: to say those adoptive parents knew the circumstance. Often they 461 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: didn't know and had no idea that's what the mother 462 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 3: had been through. They thought they were doing the right 463 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: thing by adopting an unwanted child, or an abandoned child, 464 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 3: or a child that its parents couldn't care for them, 465 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 3: when in reality that mother desperately wanted to keep their child. 466 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 3: And these adoptive parents are thinking they're doing the right thing. 467 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: They've got a baby now and everyone's happy. But they've 468 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 3: told this child you were chosen, and then that child 469 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 3: lives with that narrative for forty years, and it's the 470 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: wrong narrative, you know, and that's almost impossible to undo. 471 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: Someone whose story didn't end in that positive way like 472 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: Dyas did was a woman you spoke to called Lily, 473 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: and her situation is just so shocking that a young girl, 474 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: teenage girl who is pregnant is arrested and put into 475 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: a home because she's. 476 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: Pregnant, charged with moral danger, which is the most archaic 477 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 3: notion that this could happen in the late nineteen sixties, 478 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 3: you know, it seems like something that would take place 479 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 3: in the eighteen hundreds. 480 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 4: But she was charged with moral danger. 481 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 3: She was living with her partner in a de facto relationship, 482 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 3: and they both were willing to keep the child. The 483 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: child was wanted, and they were planning to get married. 484 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 3: Because she was sixteen and eleven months, which was over 485 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: the age of consent, which also they tried to charge 486 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 3: you with. They needed parental permission, and her parents were 487 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: living in Sydney, so they had planned to go down 488 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 3: and get the papers signed, get married, and keep their baby, 489 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: but instead, in the middle of the night, she was arrested, 490 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 3: taken to the children's court, charged with moral danger, and 491 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 3: essentially locked up in a Magdalen laundry for the duration 492 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 3: of her pregnancy, in which their letters were read. 493 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 4: No visitors allowed. 494 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: That partner of her showed up twice to try and 495 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: marry her, and they wouldn't let him in. She also 496 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 3: had no idea of what was going to happen during 497 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: the birth and didn't know she wasn't going to be 498 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 3: allowed to keep her child. I think the trauma that 499 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: Lily endured. She was drugged, she was coerced, she was bullied. 500 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 3: They said, you know, you can't see a son or 501 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 3: your partner until you sign these papers. I think the 502 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 3: duress they put her under and what they did to 503 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 3: her mentally was horrendous, physically was horrendous. And then the 504 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 3: outcome of her story is eventually after Clara Clara's again 505 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: where they misspelled his name and miss Dewey's birthday, she 506 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 3: finally finds him and he just wants nothing to do 507 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: with her because he's been told his whole life. She 508 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: didn't want him, and that is a terrible, terrible tragedy 509 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 3: because she has just never recovered. 510 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 511 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalist Amelia Oberheart about Australia's dark history 512 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: of forced adoptions that only ended in the nineteen eighties. Amelia, 513 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 1: can we touch a little bit on the institutions that 514 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: were involved in these processes, So where Lily was sent, 515 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: for example, the Magdalen Laundry, but there was also networks 516 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: of hospitals and other places that would take these young 517 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: women in and essentially hide them away until they've had 518 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: their baby. What were these institutions like in what roles 519 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: were they playing in all of this? 520 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: So, without going into a huge amount of detail, there 521 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: was always a single women's payment in this country until 522 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: after World War II men came back. They had venereal diseases, 523 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: that's what some say, and tuberculosis had riddled the country 524 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: and it made for a huge spike in infertility. So 525 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 3: you have no IVF and no options if you are 526 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: to find yourself in a position where you're a young, married, 527 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 3: good couple that cannot have children, and also the pressure 528 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 3: on a woman who is in a marriage and young 529 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 3: and can't have a child. 530 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 4: It's shameful too. It's a double edged sword. 531 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: I think that certain institutions saw an opportunity they would 532 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 3: create a social stigma around being an unwed mother, which 533 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 3: had not been the stigma between nineteen twenty nineteen forty. 534 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: That was fine because one had killed so many of 535 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: our men. There wasn't an issue. It was okay to 536 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 3: have your child. So social and religious notions start sweeping 537 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 3: through that you're this disgraceful person if you are unweaded 538 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: and pregnant, and that creates a fear because there is 539 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 3: no abortion unless you were going to access some neighborhood 540 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 3: dangerous you know, we spoke to some people that had 541 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 3: learned to do abortions by giving them to themselves. You know, 542 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 3: this was a very very dangerous option, and very desperate 543 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 3: women access them, some with lifelong ramifications. But unless you 544 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 3: were going to do that, or you found a doctor 545 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 3: that would which was very particularly in regional and rural communities, 546 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 3: impossible you were to have the child. You were often 547 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 3: sent into state or to other rural cities where you 548 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: would be put into institutions. There was religious ones. They 549 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: were the Magdalen laundries. They were hugely run through Ireland 550 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 3: and Scotland, which have the worst forced adoption history of 551 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: any Western civilization. You know the stories that come out 552 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: of Scotland and Ireland, and where the Magdalen lawn originated 553 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: from is essentially free labor. You're pregnant, you may defold 554 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 3: sheets for twenty hours a day for no pay. They 555 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: feed you and morally correct you. You're taking a hospital, 556 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 3: you put into the unwed mother's zone, so you would 557 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 3: fill out paperwork that would say you be minus was 558 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 3: one of them. So unwed mother baby minus is adopting. 559 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: You can't keep it. Classes you get to keep it 560 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 3: and you put into a different section of the hospital. 561 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: Crown Street Women's Hospital in Sydney was one of the 562 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: most notorious baby farming hospitals in the country. Sixty thousand 563 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 3: babies were said to have been taken from there, and 564 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: it was there that they believe a lot of cahoops 565 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: I guess, with obstetricians that had clientele that couldn't give birth, 566 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 3: couldn't have children or found themselves unable to, and then 567 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 3: obviously unwed mothers that didn't know that their babies were 568 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 3: going to be taken, and then the Magdalen Laundry would 569 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 3: take you back till your stomach went down and you 570 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: could return as a normal person into society. And then 571 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: you'd be discharged and you were told go on with 572 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: your life. No one will ever know this happen. You've 573 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 3: disgraced yourself, but now you can come good. You can 574 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: right your wrongs, go into society, find a nice man, 575 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 3: and go on, and you'll have other children. And a 576 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: lot of them didn't. A lot of them never went 577 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: on to have any more children, and a lot of 578 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 3: them obviously went on to be completely scarred physically and 579 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 3: mentally for the rest of their lives. And then a 580 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 3: lot of them obviously didn't bank on genetic testing where 581 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: they came and found them. But those institutions and those 582 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 3: numbers do not include rearrangements or informal adoptions. They were 583 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: usually religiously run where father Tom would identify a Waywood 584 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 3: girl who'd gotten pregnant and Mary and Tom down here 585 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: are desperately trying to have a baby, so they would 586 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: give her baby to Mary and Tom and say, well, 587 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 3: essentially she never existed to begin with, and they'll just 588 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 3: write a birth certificate straight into Mary and Tom's name, 589 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 3: and they were called informal adoptions. And there's no way 590 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: of knowing the number of those because they're not recorded. 591 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 3: But those religious organizations also had homes awayward girls or 592 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 3: unwed mother homes, you know, Saint Anthony's or Saint Ursula's, 593 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: and they'd send you there and you'd be with nuns 594 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: and priests for the duration of your pregnancy. They'd take 595 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 3: your baby and you'd be released when you were able 596 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 3: to go back into society. And those places have yet 597 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 3: often closed and often never paid for what happened, never 598 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: taken any responsibility for what occurred under their roof. 599 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: You do actually speak to some of the children who 600 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: are on the opposite end of this story. How do 601 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: they understand themselves and their own stories when they do 602 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: realize what their mums, their biological mothers, have gone through. 603 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: And does this leave a lasting impact on their lives too? 604 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, we spoke with quite a few adoptees 605 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: over the process. The forced adoption era, or the era 606 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 3: of adoption that went into the late seventies early eighties, 607 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 3: It was very different practice to the adoptees of the 608 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 3: next generation because they were open adoptions. Often letters were given, 609 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: most sets of parents were involved, So you know, there 610 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: is a very big line in the sand there between 611 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: the practices that took place in the forced adoption era. 612 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 3: I think every adoptee has, you know, they're like fingerprints. 613 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: Everyone has their own story or their own reactions. But 614 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 3: most of the children born into that forced adoption era 615 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 3: have a real issue with identity. They desperately just want 616 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 3: to know why and how and who they are, and 617 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: it's often very difficult for them when the mother has 618 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 3: blanked out, or the mother has had their own family, 619 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: or small things like that that hugely impact their ability 620 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 3: to connect. When they've dreamt their whole life of finding 621 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: this person, and that person either chose rightfully which was 622 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 3: their choice to give up their baby, or had blocked 623 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 3: it out or had never told anyone. That's the big 624 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: theme is that they had never told their current husband, 625 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 3: never told their current children. It was a part of 626 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: their history they thought would never come back. And then 627 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 3: that creates this whole again, a narrative that is really 628 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 3: painful for those adoptee kids, particularly late discovery adoptees who 629 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 3: because of genetic testing find out and to quantify they've 630 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 3: been lied to for fifty years is very hard for 631 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 3: them too. 632 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: A lot of people are going to see an alignment 633 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: here between forced adoptions and the Stolen Generations, and I 634 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: know that you do touch on this in the podcast 635 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: as well, but how did these two things actually differ? 636 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: Because they are so similar and yet so different. 637 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 3: The Stolen Generations was one of my most heart wrenching 638 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 3: episodes and the one I am probably the most nervous 639 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 3: about in terms of being able to give it justice. 640 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 3: I mean, the Stolen Generations is a podcast in itself. 641 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 3: It's to try and cover that in a twenty four 642 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 3: minute episode is almost impossible. That I did feel it 643 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 3: would be a terrible thing for us not to give 644 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 3: it the attention and some light. The difference is the 645 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 3: laws of assimilation and the practices of assimilation, and the 646 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 3: way that they went about removal of children was different. However, 647 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 3: there is a crossover between the babies that were born 648 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 3: in the Stolen Generations and forced adoption, So mostly those 649 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 3: children were taken under law of assimilation, which I mean 650 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 3: the laws changed a lot over two hundred and fifty years, 651 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 3: but generally they believed horrifically that taking children from their 652 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: community and families they would better assimilate into white society, 653 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 3: which is just something I can't really comprehend it and 654 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 3: it was a heartbreaking period going into the research into this. 655 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 3: But the forced adoption was the belief that a mother 656 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 3: couldn't care for their child if they were single or 657 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 3: unwed or in a position not of you. 658 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 4: Know, statures. 659 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: So some of those stolen generation mothers lost their children 660 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 3: through assimilation, but then they would go to the hospital 661 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 3: to have a baby and they would take them under 662 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 3: forced adoption. So that's where the crossover does occur. But 663 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 3: they are different issues and they're treated differently. But Leoni, 664 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 3: who we speak to, is stolen generations and forced adoption 665 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 3: and she was sent to Wales with a nurse. I mean, 666 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 3: her story is incredible and incredibly sad. 667 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: Again, Julia Gillard apologized to all the victims of forced 668 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: adoptions in twenty thirteen, and I guess a lot of 669 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: the people who were there that day and who felt 670 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: a sense of relief that finally they'd been recognized and 671 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: that people knew that what had happened to them was wrong. 672 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: But has there been any significant change in this area 673 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: since then, because I understanding you've touched on this many 674 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: times about the poor record keeping and the way that 675 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: these closed adoptions were set up, making it incredibly difficult 676 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: for anyone to trace their own history. Has anything changed 677 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: since that apology. 678 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 3: There's a big thing about the apology that certainly could 679 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 3: be a coincidence or it's more sinister than that. Where 680 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 3: the day the apology took place, eight thousand people packed 681 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 3: the hall. A lot of those women desperately wanted media 682 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 3: coverage so that their children could understand, you know, maybe 683 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 3: recognize them. Maybe them being on the TV would make 684 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 3: someone know that they weren't abandoned, that it wasn't by 685 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 3: a choice, they were adopted. This was a big moment 686 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 3: for them and they had waited a long time, some 687 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 3: of them forty years for this day. And then that 688 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 3: afternoon Simon Crean called the Labor Leadership's Bill, in which 689 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 3: he wanted the removal of all Labor leadership positions and 690 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 3: Kevin Rudd to be in and so all the media 691 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 3: race from there up to Parliament House, and that night 692 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 3: on the news when all these women go home and 693 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 3: wait for their moment, it's just all about the Leadership's bill. 694 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 3: I mean, they say that one outlet covered that story, 695 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 3: you know, but it was hugely overtaken by a political circus, 696 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 3: and I think that created some resentment. And then out 697 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 3: of the Senate inquiry of twenty one recommendations, very few 698 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 3: of them have been actioned. I mean, Victoria said they 699 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 3: were going to do a redress scheme and that is 700 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 3: yet to be actioned. That was twelve months ago. They 701 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 3: promised that there is a sense with the mothers that 702 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: they believe they're waiting for them to die because they're 703 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 3: getting so old, and the compensation once you admit fault, 704 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 3: you know, you're looking at two hundred and fifty thousand 705 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 3: women that we know of, and so I think that 706 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 3: they believe that there is some sort of dragging it out, 707 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 3: kicking the can down the road. Also, once the Senate 708 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: inquiry was done and the twenty one recommendations were made, 709 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 3: they were essentially pushed back onto a state by state issue, 710 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 3: and then the states had to hold their own inquiries. 711 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 3: You know, Queensland still yet to hold one, like WA's 712 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 3: in the process of doing one now. But really it 713 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 3: seems to them they're just pulling it out and dragging 714 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 3: it out. That was, you know, ten years ago, and 715 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 3: we're still ten years down the track and nothing's happened. 716 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 3: So a lot of them are very passionate out of 717 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 3: royal commission and getting things done, and for their children 718 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 3: who are now sort of picking up that fight for 719 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 3: their mothers. 720 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: In the process of the episodes of your podcasts going live, 721 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: I imagine this is probably a woken some very old 722 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: deep scars for women who experience this in decades past. 723 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: What's the feedback been like for you from people reaching 724 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,959 Speaker 1: out and telling maybe their stories for the very first time. 725 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 3: We've received hundreds of emails. I've received a lot of 726 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 3: private messages across like Instagram or LinkedIn. I was going 727 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 3: under my married name, and somehow people have an amazing 728 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 3: ability to find you, and so you know, I was 729 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,919 Speaker 3: getting quite inundated, which was amazing, and I was so appreciative, 730 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 3: particularly of so much positive feedback. I really, I guess 731 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 3: when you put yourself out in the world and you're 732 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 3: so vulnerable to other people's opinions and critics, and I 733 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 3: was really humbled by how well received it was and 734 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 3: has been so far. So I had started to direct 735 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 3: people to an email account, so we could pull everything 736 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 3: into one central space, obviously, in the hopes that all 737 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 3: these people's stories can be heard, because they all deserved 738 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 3: a platform. I get a lot of emails from daughters 739 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 3: of mothers that have experienced this, saying I now understand 740 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 3: my mum, or listening to this, I can understand how 741 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 3: hard my mum's life has been, like I thank you 742 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,439 Speaker 3: for taking that burden off her, or I'm getting ready 743 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 3: to try and talk to my mom about this. And 744 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 3: every time I hit under the covers at night and 745 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 3: it was like, I don't want to do this, and 746 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 3: I started to panic. I always came back to this 747 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 3: one notion that if it changed the outcome of one 748 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 3: family or one conversation, if it lifted that burden for 749 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 3: one person, it was job done. So every email that 750 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 3: comes it gives me this heart warming it's doing what 751 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 3: it was meant to and that's an amazing thing. 752 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: Just to finish, Amelia, after going through this process of 753 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: understanding all these women and stories and hearing the pain 754 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: and the heartbreak not just from these women but from 755 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: their children and their extended families, how do you now 756 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: feel about your own mum because your relationship with her 757 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: was not great towards the end, and addiction played a 758 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: big part in that. But how do you feel about 759 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: your mom now after going through this journey with all 760 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: these women and understanding them better. 761 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I had spent twelve years in quite a 762 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 3: bit of pain and a lot of lack of understanding 763 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 3: and resentment, and I felt after I met Michael, all 764 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 3: of that resentment it melted away. I started to really 765 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,240 Speaker 3: see her as a person again. I started to see 766 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 3: the pain that she was really in and to look 767 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 3: at it, I mean, retrospect is twenty twenty, and I 768 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 3: started to look back on things and situations and her 769 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 3: downfall with this compassion and empathy. I had never been 770 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 3: able to look at it like that before. I now 771 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 3: have my own daughter, and when I was pregnant, knowing 772 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 3: it was a girl, and during the period of her infancy, 773 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 3: I would just cry so much for my mum because 774 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 3: I desperately have always sorry, I got an emotional you know, 775 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,959 Speaker 3: I desperately wanted that relationship. You know, I'd always wanted 776 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 3: that relationship with her, and now I had a chance 777 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 3: to have that with my daughter. And now I've reconciled 778 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 3: with my mum. Who's not here to have that conversation with. 779 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 3: But I feel very much at peace, and for that, 780 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 3: I'll always be thankful for the podcast. 781 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to Amelia for joining us today. Her podcast 782 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: Secrets We Keep is LinkedIn our show notes if you'd 783 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: like to take a listen. True Crime Conversations is Amma 784 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: Mere podcast hosted and produced by me Claire Murphy, with 785 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: assistant production by Tarlie Blackman. Our audio design is by 786 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,399 Speaker 1: Scott Stronik, and our executive producer is Giam Moylin. Thank 787 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. We'll be back next week 788 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: with another true crime conversation. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the 789 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast was 790 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: recorded on