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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Hello and welcome

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Speaker 1: to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually

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Speaker 1: talking about. On Wednesday, the fourteenth of January. I'm Holly

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Speaker 1: wayen Wright and I am officially the person who yesterday

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Speaker 1: many people in the world did this. Ends already laughing

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Speaker 1: at me. Oh god. I clicked on a Harry's Styles

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Speaker 1: related some excitement about Harry Styles maybe about to release

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Speaker 1: an album.

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Speaker 2: I saw that. I didn't understand what it happens.

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Speaker 1: It sends you to a site. You press this button

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Speaker 1: on a site and immediately a pop up comes up

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Speaker 1: and wants all of your details, like your birthday, your

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Speaker 1: shoe size, your email address, where you live, where you live.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, just

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Speaker 1: have it all, Like have it all. I'm sure Harry

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Speaker 1: wants it for something important. And then I pressed send

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Speaker 1: and then.

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Speaker 2: Oh, your money disappears because you've given them your BSB

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Speaker 2: in account.

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Speaker 1: Great live what.

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Speaker 2: Harry need your home address? Holleen?

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Speaker 1: I was like, sh I think I'm a boomer. I

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Speaker 1: think it was like, yeah, thank you. This is a

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Speaker 1: complicated Harry Styles related scam. So and you still haven't

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Speaker 1: got anything out of it. But still I assumed that

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Speaker 1: when I woke up this morning i'd have some messages

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Speaker 1: from Harry.

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Speaker 2: Nothing yet I saw something pop up yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Apparently Harry is about to drop news like a phono

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Speaker 1: with himself. As much as we know, we've been waiting

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Speaker 1: us who care Harry Styles that's released an album for

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Speaker 1: three years, It's time and apparently he's about to. By

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Speaker 1: the time people listen to this, they might know, especially

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Speaker 1: if they like me, got scammed this week and Harry

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Speaker 1: Styles related incident.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry checking back account there about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jesse Stephens and I'm em Vernham and here's what's

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Speaker 1: on our agenda for today. Australia's longest running Riders Festival

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Speaker 1: has collapsed under the way of controversy. And if you're thinking,

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Speaker 1: since when were cozy chats about books taking up quite

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Speaker 1: so many headlines? We're here to discuss.

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Speaker 3: Plus, Timothy Challamay has been winning a lot of awards lately.

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Speaker 3: You would have seen he's been using a very specific

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Speaker 3: word in his acceptance speeches and we are going to

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Speaker 3: dissect it.

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Speaker 2: And Jennifer Lawrence made an offhanded remark about her pet

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Speaker 2: dog and now she is the devil. We need to

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Speaker 2: talk about dog people.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to today's show in a minute, but if

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Speaker 1: you haven't listened to yesterday's subscriber episode yet, stop what

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Speaker 1: you're doing and do it. Actually, no, listen to this

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Speaker 1: first and then stop what you're doing and do.

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Speaker 2: It, because there's a link in the show notes, so that.

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Speaker 1: Will help you. Because Mea Friedman is back.

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Speaker 2: Maya Friedman is back, and we had such a candid

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Speaker 2: and vulnerable discussion that I think she would have only

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Speaker 2: felt comfortable having in the context of a subscriber episode.

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Speaker 1: It's very juicy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, about why she left, why she has chosen

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Speaker 2: to come back, what's been going on behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: It was really really emotional.

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Speaker 1: Really emotional, and I thought about it a lot afterwards,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, we talked about a lot of

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Speaker 1: things we would never ordinarily talk about on Mike.

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Speaker 2: It was really special. So there is a link to

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Speaker 2: that in our show notes, and a reminder that Maya

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Speaker 2: is going to be on subscriber episodes going forward, So Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: every Tuesday, every Thursday, you're going to get more and

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Speaker 2: more of Maya.

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Speaker 1: But first, on today's show, Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: In case you missed it, Australian researchers have developed a

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Speaker 2: blood test to diagnose endometriosis. As we know, endometriosis is

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Speaker 2: a chronic disease that affects at least one in nine women.

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Speaker 2: That data is really hard to determine because of how

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Speaker 2: difficult it is to diagnose, and it comes with a

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Speaker 2: number of really debilitating symptoms for women. So you could

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Speaker 2: get really bad period pain, pain with urination or bound movements, bloating, fatigue,

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Speaker 2: pain during sex, issues with fertility, the list goes on.

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Speaker 2: It is also notoriously time consuming and invasive to diagnose,

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Speaker 2: so it's diagnosed through a procedure called a laparoscopy, which

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Speaker 2: is invasive at surgery. It's about as invasive as kind

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Speaker 2: of a diagnosis gets right, and that's why the news

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Speaker 2: that GPS could diagnose endometriosis with a simple blood test

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Speaker 2: is so exciting. And to be clear, you can't go

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Speaker 2: and get your tests tomorrow. I obviously look that up.

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Speaker 2: The research though, is incredibly promising and it's the significant

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Speaker 2: step forward in diagnosing what is known to be one

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Speaker 2: of the most common chronic illnesses that women suffer from.

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Speaker 2: So fingers crossed this is around the corner.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize how serious endo was. I also one

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Speaker 3: of those people who I'm like, every time I feel

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Speaker 3: like something's wrong with me, I'm like, could I have endo?

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Speaker 3: I think there are so many symptoms, And I think

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Speaker 3: it's also because a lot of my friends who have

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Speaker 3: been diagnosed with ENDO treated so casually because they're medical professionals,

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Speaker 3: have been treating it so casually. I had a friend

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Speaker 3: who had a c section and she told me that

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Speaker 3: when she got stitched up, the doctor told her, oh,

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Speaker 3: we also noticed she had some endo in there, so

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Speaker 3: we cleaned that all up for you. And she was like,

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Speaker 3: oh thanks. And I had this other friend in the

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Speaker 3: office and I was like, what are you doing this weekend?

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Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, I'm going to get my endo

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Speaker 3: removed third time.

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Speaker 1: I'm like what.

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Speaker 2: And it's so true, Like it's really serious. I've been

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Speaker 2: down this path a few times, and I think that

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Speaker 2: I'm like a lot of women going maybe I have it,

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Speaker 2: but I haven't taken that step because it feels so

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Speaker 2: drastic and so daunting. Yeah, and I know that for

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Speaker 2: other women. I have a friend who has like, you know,

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Speaker 2: stage four or whatever, and the issues that can cause

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Speaker 2: the fertility down the track. The level of pain like

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Speaker 2: it's awful. So I think that we know there's more

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Speaker 2: and more research money being put towards this, more money

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Speaker 2: than ever before. So you know with more diagnosis as well,

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Speaker 2: you would hope more treatment, Yeah, more treatment options.

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Speaker 1: Thank god. It has been a terrible week for publishing

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Speaker 1: in Australia. Australian author Craig Sylvie, who wrote Jasper Jones

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Speaker 1: and Ront and Honeybee, has been charged with possessing and

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Speaker 1: distributing child exploitation material. Obviously that's subject to legal proceedings,

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Speaker 1: so we won't be speculating about that, but it is

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Speaker 1: news that has really shocked a lot of people. And

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Speaker 1: also riders festivals don't usually gobble up lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of headlines, but it would have been difficult to avoid

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Speaker 1: stories this week about the Adelaide Riders Week, which yesterday

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Speaker 1: was canceled. Now, if you've listened to yesterday's subscriber EP,

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Speaker 1: you would have heard me and Jesse talking with me

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Speaker 1: about controversial and difficult topics that we choose whether to

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Speaker 1: weigh in on or not because we don't want to

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Speaker 1: add to the noise and distress that are often around

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Speaker 1: these and often because we don't feel like we have

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Speaker 1: anything to add because we're not necessarily experts or have

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Speaker 1: lots of experience in them. But Jesse and I are

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Speaker 1: both authors and we do go to a lot of

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Speaker 1: writers festivals, and I think that we can offer This

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Speaker 1: is one of those times where we can offer a

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Speaker 1: bit of context behind all the headlines you've been seeing

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Speaker 1: and if you're thinking like what, like why is the

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Speaker 1: Rider's Festival such a big deal? And what even our writers'

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Speaker 1: festivals and what goes on at them, we can definitely

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Speaker 1: help with that because I think there's a bigger picture

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Speaker 1: discussion here about what even Riders Festivals are and why

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Speaker 1: they have such significance in creative Australia. So here's a

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Speaker 1: top line about what happened for Adelaide. I want to

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Speaker 1: say straight away that we are not discussing whether the

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Speaker 1: decisions made were right or wrong. You can find opinions

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Speaker 1: about that all over the internet if you want to,

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Speaker 1: but what we can agree on is that it was

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Speaker 1: disastrously handled and the outcome is that we've lost the

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Speaker 1: longest running literary festival in Australia at least for now.

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Speaker 1: So on January the eighth, the Adelaide Riders Week website

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Speaker 1: posted a statement saying that in the wake of the

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Speaker 1: Bondai terrorist attacts, they had uninvited Palestinian Australian author Randa

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Speaker 1: abdel Fatar from the festival. These are the words in

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Speaker 1: their statement. While we do not suggest in any way

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Speaker 1: that doctor Randa abdel Fatar or her writings have any

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Speaker 1: connection with the tragedy at Bondai, given her past statements,

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Speaker 1: we have formed the view that it would not be

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Speaker 1: culturally sensitive to continue to program her at this unprecedented

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Speaker 1: time so soon after Bondi. Within hours of that statement,

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Speaker 1: but certainly where we are now, within six days of

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Speaker 1: issuing that statement, one hundred and eighty of the author's

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Speaker 1: scheduled to appear at the festival had pulled out in protest,

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Speaker 1: saying that this was censorship and cancel culture and action,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't want to be part of a festival

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Speaker 1: that silenced writers, alleging racism in the singling out of

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Speaker 1: Fatar and basically declaring it was antithetical to the spirit

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Speaker 1: of a rider's festival, which should be an exchange of

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Speaker 1: ideas and viewpoints.

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Speaker 2: And what's important to note there too, and this is

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Speaker 2: the case with any boycott, is that each of those

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Speaker 2: authors would have had their own reasons, some provided statements,

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Speaker 2: some didn't, and so they weren't necessarily all making the

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Speaker 2: same statement with their absence.

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Speaker 1: It's true bye. Yesterday, the festival's director and all but

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Speaker 1: one of its board members who made this decision in

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Speaker 1: the first place, had resigned. Then it was announced that

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Speaker 1: Rider's Week was canceled altogether for the first time since

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Now, as I said, we're not here to

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Speaker 1: prosecute the ins and outs of that spectacular implosion, but

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Speaker 1: to give a little context to what the hell Riders

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Speaker 1: festivals are for and whether or not it's even possible

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Speaker 1: to run one at the moment in this very deeply

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Speaker 1: divided world. Full disclosure too in talking about this, as

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Speaker 1: I say, Jesse and I do and have gone to

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Speaker 1: Riders festivals. I'm off to one in a few weeks

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Speaker 1: in Newcastle, which I know you've been to before, and

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Speaker 1: I'm doing a Sydney Riders Festival event in a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks. Interviewing Kathy Le wasn't invited to Adelaide. Jesse

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Speaker 1: wasn't invited to Adelaide, so we didn't have to make

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Speaker 1: that decision in case you're wondering about it, But m

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Speaker 1: back to the top line. You have questions about what

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Speaker 1: writers festivals even after.

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Speaker 3: I've never been to a writer's festival. I honestly think

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't know what writers' festivals would be if I

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Speaker 3: wasn't friends with you guys, if I didn't work in

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Speaker 3: media and publishing, and like a lot of my friends

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Speaker 3: who aren't in the industry, I think the first time

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Speaker 3: they heard about writers festivals was when this one got canceled.

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Speaker 3: So I wanted to know, just as someone who reads

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Speaker 3: a lot of books, should I be going to writer

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Speaker 3: as festivals like the same way I go to music's festivals.

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Speaker 1: People would love you to be going to write his festivals.

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Speaker 1: The industry would love it because one of the things

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Speaker 1: that is true of writer's festivals and a stereotype of it,

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Speaker 1: is that the people who go are aging out, that

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Speaker 1: it's very particular demographic, that it can feel a bit

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Speaker 1: like a closed shop, and so lots of writers festivals

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Speaker 1: are racking their brains about how to get people like

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Speaker 1: you to them. Would you say yeah?

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of social capital that is attached

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Speaker 2: to appearing at a festival, because the important thing, just

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Speaker 2: like a music festival, they're curated, right like that, A

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Speaker 2: board or a you know, a group of directors or

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Speaker 2: whatever decide who is invited and who is not. And

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Speaker 2: so it can seem like to some there's kind of

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Speaker 2: this in group who are invited and who are maybe

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Speaker 2: more literary.

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Speaker 1: And writers all want to be invited, right, So just

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Speaker 1: writing a book, any book, does not mean you're going

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Speaker 1: to get invited to write his festivals, Jesse says, the

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Speaker 1: curated and I remember being desperate to be invited to

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Speaker 1: write his festivals.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge deal to be invited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but especially at the beginning of your writing career,

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Speaker 1: and if you write books like mine, which is termed

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Speaker 1: commercial women's fiction, you often feel like, well, I'm never

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Speaker 1: going to get invited to write his festivals. So when

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Speaker 1: you are, you're like, oh my god, I've made it

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Speaker 1: into some kind of respectable credibility as.

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Speaker 2: An author with a capital aid.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And that's sort of a bit silly, because you know,

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Speaker 1: they do tend to over index on literary as Jesse said,

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Speaker 1: and you know whether or not they do invite those

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Speaker 1: kind of writers as a question, but everybody wants.

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Speaker 2: To be included, I suppose as well. And this is

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Speaker 2: the conclusion I've come to is that like, I'm in

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Speaker 2: the enormously privileged position of having a platform, and I

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Speaker 2: have sat on panels next to people who have written

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Speaker 2: books far better than mine, far more interesting, took them

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Speaker 2: far longer, and they do not have that privilege. And

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Speaker 2: what I love about writers' festivals is the discoverability sitting

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Speaker 2: there and going I would have never known about your

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Speaker 2: incredible work.

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Speaker 1: This is the great So just to give you a

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Speaker 1: picture of what happens inside one, for example, they often

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Speaker 1: run over several days, right, and there'll be a program,

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Speaker 1: just like at a music festival, and it'll be a

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Speaker 1: mixture of the big headliners, the jeal leapers of it all,

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Speaker 1: who you know might be a Trent Dalton or a

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Speaker 1: Marrying Keys or a Richard Osmon or you know. I

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Speaker 1: mean you could that list have gone on like a

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Speaker 1: big ticket item. And then they'll be panels where it

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Speaker 1: might be three writers that you like or are interested

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Speaker 1: in talking about their books, and you might go because

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Speaker 1: you really want to hear what Jesse Stevens has to

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Speaker 1: say about her book, but during the process of that,

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Speaker 1: you're also going to hear about these other great books.

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Speaker 1: They're a place where the panel discussions are often well

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Speaker 1: I don't know that they always are, because there are

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Speaker 1: always time constraints and whatever. But the idea is it's

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Speaker 1: a place where they're talking about ideas. So if you've

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Speaker 1: written a book that touches on any particular topic, that

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Speaker 1: you'll be discussing that on a panel. So it's a

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Speaker 1: great place to learn about authors and buy books, and

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Speaker 1: it's a great place for authors to sell books and

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Speaker 1: have their profiles raised. Because, as Jesse's touched on, in Australia,

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Speaker 1: the average author makes eighteen thousand dollars a year, maybe

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Speaker 1: somewhere between two and that. So the opportunity to go

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Speaker 1: you get paid. You don't get paid a lot bit,

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Speaker 1: get paid a bit of money for a peering. You

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Speaker 1: get a chance to network, obviously with other writers and

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Speaker 1: agents and publishers and readers, and you get a chance

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Speaker 1: to meet your readers and to sign to sign after

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Speaker 1: every session. So who's the writer you love, love love?

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Speaker 3: So if I'm saying like I want to see Sally.

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Speaker 1: Hepworth, So you want to see Sally Hepworth. You'll go

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Speaker 1: and see her in a concert like situation where she'll

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Speaker 1: probably be being interviewed, often by someone like me. I

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Speaker 1: get invited often to interview people because you know, as

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Speaker 1: well as being an author, we're interviewers, right, So she

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Speaker 1: might be being interviewed, and then afterwards it'll be like,

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Speaker 1: Sally will be signing in this room and you go

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Speaker 1: over there and she's likes that, and there's nothing one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's amazing about festival.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to sit extra reston in a signing.

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Speaker 1: Nothing more humbling than the writer's lines at a festival, right,

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Speaker 1: because I have every writer kind of like comic Con,

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Speaker 1: it's like and it's like an immediate popularity contest. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so for all those reasons, they're important, and they can

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Speaker 1: be enormously fun to go to and interesting to go to.

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Speaker 1: A day of ideas, a day of discussion, a day

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Speaker 1: of discovering all about books.

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Speaker 3: I know so many of my friends who are huge bookworms.

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Speaker 3: Why is do you think Riders festivals is not really

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Speaker 3: a thing that's been on their radar.

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Speaker 2: It's a real, really good question, and I think that

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Speaker 2: if you are organizing Writer's Festival, you have to strike

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Speaker 2: this real balance between promoting and platforming authors who would

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Speaker 2: not otherwise have their work platformed, but also having names

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Speaker 2: that are big enough that will attract people to sort

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Speaker 2: of headline it. Yeah, what's hard to write is that, like,

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Speaker 2: we work in the churn of media, and so much

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Speaker 2: of what we consume is like whether we were talking

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Speaker 2: about this on the subscriber episode yesterday, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: hot takes. It's an idea that someone sat with for

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds. It's quick soundbites. These authors have sat with

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Speaker 2: their work for years alone and have written eighty thousand

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Speaker 2: words and have these incredible insights to offer. I think

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Speaker 2: sometimes that can feel probably a bit overwhelming for people.

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Speaker 2: But I always find like, you know, you move out

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Speaker 2: of UNI, you went to UNI.

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Speaker 1: I'm like hulle ever here, So I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: You went in that's useful to the cause.

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Speaker 2: And you know that feeling of just being so invigorated

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Speaker 2: by new and exciting ideas, It's like, I think it

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Speaker 2: it really offers that, but it's landed to bring us

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Speaker 2: back to this moment. It's become a real lightning rod

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Speaker 2: when it comes to cultural war issues. And of course

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Speaker 2: last year was Bend to Go Writers Festival. What happened there?

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Speaker 2: Do you remember that? Did you say that? Okay? I reckon?

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Speaker 2: This is when writers festivals made headlines like really. And

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Speaker 2: the reason everyone cares is because hardly anyone's been to

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Speaker 2: Bend to Go Writers Festival. As prestigious and great as

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Speaker 2: it is, people form opinions because ultimately it's a question

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Speaker 2: about free speech. Right, So Bend to Go Writers Festival.

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Speaker 2: The university that was hosting it released a code of conduct.

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Speaker 2: They wanted authors to avoid talking about divisive topics comply

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Speaker 2: with the anti racism plan of the UNI. What does

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Speaker 2: anti racism even mean? I won't go down that rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately sixty percent of its participants withdrew.

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Speaker 1: They said, you can't tell us what we can't talk about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so is it like the panels are more

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Speaker 3: than just talking about the books you're also discussing.

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Speaker 1: This is why Writers Writers Festival publishing so difficult to

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Speaker 1: talk about in one way, because think about the fact

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Speaker 1: that we talk about books that can be recipe tin eats, right,

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Speaker 1: and it can also be a beautiful book of poetry

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Speaker 1: by you know, somebody from Somalia or.

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Speaker 2: Right, children's book about Bunny Rabbit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or a celebrity memoir or some domestic noir or

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Speaker 1: crime or like books are everything, right, an ideal writer's festival,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, kind of reflects that, right, so you

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Speaker 1: would have you have all kinds of things going on.

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Speaker 1: It is unlikely that the panel that you go to

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Speaker 1: to listen to three comedy writers talking about like they're

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Speaker 1: maybe light romantic comedy books or something, is going to

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Speaker 1: veer into political territory or whatever. But if you've got

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Speaker 1: three serious, heavy hitting writers who have all been grappling

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Speaker 1: with important issues and coming out from different perspectives discussing

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Speaker 1: something on a panel, then obviously sometimes it's going to

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Speaker 1: touch on the same big issues in culture. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about who should be allowed to

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Speaker 1: sit on those stages.

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Speaker 2: And the ven diagram of authors and advocates or authors

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Speaker 2: and critics or authors and protesters or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: they overlap significantly. Always have authors have always been at

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Speaker 2: the forefront or writers have been at the forefront of

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Speaker 2: a lot of social justice movements.

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Speaker 1: And they're often at the center of the cancel culture

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Speaker 1: conversations because I mean years ago. One of the most

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Speaker 1: famous cancel culture kickoff moments was when Lionel Schreiver walked

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Speaker 1: out of an Australian writer's festival because she said that

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Speaker 1: she thought that writers should be able to write from

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Speaker 1: every perspective. To remember that forgotten about that she wrote Kevin, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she wrote we need to talk about Kevin as well

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Speaker 1: as some other amazing books. But she talked about how

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Speaker 1: she thought it was nonsense that she wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: write from a black perspective or right from this and

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Speaker 1: people walked out and it was a big deal. And

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Speaker 1: that was like the festival of ideas I guess, which

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Speaker 1: a writer's festival ideally is. Lots of different ideas often

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Speaker 1: can be combustible.

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Speaker 2: It's a real shame, right because bender Go Writers' Festival

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Speaker 2: is not going ahead this year. It's having a year

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Speaker 2: off Adelaide Writers Festival. No matter what you think of

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Speaker 2: who should and shouldn't have been platformed disaster like everyone,

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Speaker 2: these are people who just want to talk about their books.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So as a society, what are we actually missing

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Speaker 3: from not having these festivals anymore?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's like grappling with big ideas,

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Speaker 2: And the question is it's like, can a festival with

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Speaker 2: multiple viewpoints, with multiple backgrounds, where everyone feels safe and

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Speaker 2: welcome exist in twenty twenty six, Because I know that

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Speaker 2: for years, I know a lot of authors who have said,

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Speaker 2: I don't do questions, I don't do audio questions. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I will have this person interview me, but I wrote

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Speaker 2: a memoir about X. I do not want to wade

390
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Speaker 2: in to an international conflict, to a cultural war issue,

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Speaker 2: to this thing going on in politics right now. I've

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00:20:23,114 --> 00:20:25,434
Speaker 2: sat on a panel and had an audience member ask

393
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Speaker 2: a question that has thrown everyone and you've felt really

394
00:20:29,674 --> 00:20:32,073
Speaker 2: put on the spot by it, and you go, oh,

395
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Speaker 2: I'm here to talk about my book questions.

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Speaker 1: You also know that people can be filming and people

397
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Speaker 1: can be like this. It's a social media of its

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Speaker 1: social media, so whatever you say there is going to,

399
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Speaker 1: you know, son feel like a track. So sometimes that

400
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Speaker 1: can make it feel very high in mistakes. Yeah, but

401
00:20:47,074 --> 00:20:49,274
Speaker 1: in your question of what we're losing, what we're also

402
00:20:49,394 --> 00:20:53,434
Speaker 1: just losing is more avenues for writers. It's very, very

403
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Speaker 1: difficult to make a living as a writer. We've already said,

404
00:20:55,474 --> 00:20:58,034
Speaker 1: and in fact, I was reading a piece recently about

405
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Speaker 1: the end of the career writer, and it's probably true.

406
00:20:59,994 --> 00:21:01,353
Speaker 1: Like I went and spoke at a school the other

407
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Speaker 1: week and they were like, I want to be a writer,

408
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Speaker 1: how to be a writer? And you basically say, you'll

409
00:21:04,794 --> 00:21:06,954
Speaker 1: never just be a writer, You'll be a writer and

410
00:21:06,954 --> 00:21:10,994
Speaker 1: a million other things. But losing riders festivals so, yes,

411
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Speaker 1: a place for grappling with big ideas, but not only

412
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Speaker 1: because not everything at a rider's festival is about big ideas.

413
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Speaker 1: Sometimes you just want to hear Nagi talking about, you know,

414
00:21:18,074 --> 00:21:20,553
Speaker 1: her journey from being a banker to being the biggest

415
00:21:20,594 --> 00:21:22,234
Speaker 1: selling cookbook author in the world, or you want to

416
00:21:22,234 --> 00:21:24,793
Speaker 1: hear Mary Key's talking about how she writes about her family,

417
00:21:24,874 --> 00:21:27,833
Speaker 1: or it's not only about big ideas. But I think

418
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Speaker 1: what's lost is another avenue for writers to be able

419
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Speaker 1: to make a living and express their ideas as well

420
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Speaker 1: as anything else. I also just need to make the

421
00:21:36,714 --> 00:21:39,834
Speaker 1: point that most riders festivals, there are some big, big

422
00:21:39,914 --> 00:21:42,273
Speaker 1: hitters in the riders festival world, right. Sydney Rides Festival

423
00:21:42,274 --> 00:21:44,794
Speaker 1: is huge and it's kind of changed the way it

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00:21:44,834 --> 00:21:46,793
Speaker 1: operates lately in that it does a lot of events

425
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Speaker 1: through the year and there'll be lots of different kinds

426
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Speaker 1: of ticket events, but most Riders festivals, particularly regional ones,

427
00:21:52,634 --> 00:21:55,034
Speaker 1: run almost entirely on volunteer power.

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Speaker 2: You just love books.

429
00:21:56,314 --> 00:21:59,794
Speaker 1: They're just best type of nearly always women. To be fair,

430
00:21:59,914 --> 00:22:02,714
Speaker 1: there are a few good men involved, but very often

431
00:22:02,714 --> 00:22:07,114
Speaker 1: they run on the power of enthusiastic female volunteers. And

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Speaker 1: they can be a bit criticized because people like they're

433
00:22:09,154 --> 00:22:11,914
Speaker 1: always men of a certain age, but often those are

434
00:22:11,914 --> 00:22:14,593
Speaker 1: the people who have time to volunteer and give their service.

435
00:22:14,834 --> 00:22:17,114
Speaker 1: They're running on the smell of an oily rag. They're

436
00:22:17,114 --> 00:22:20,594
Speaker 1: trying to avoid stepping in some massive controversy. It's a

437
00:22:20,634 --> 00:22:23,874
Speaker 1: tough gig, and you can see why it becomes a

438
00:22:23,914 --> 00:22:26,114
Speaker 1: space where a lot of people are kind of going

439
00:22:26,314 --> 00:22:29,033
Speaker 1: it's just too hard. Actually, it's just too hard now.

440
00:22:29,034 --> 00:22:30,754
Speaker 2: It's just such a shame. And I suppose the other

441
00:22:30,794 --> 00:22:35,234
Speaker 2: thing that's potentially lost is civilized discourse across you know,

442
00:22:35,394 --> 00:22:39,033
Speaker 2: lots of different worlds, which is what we want in

443
00:22:39,074 --> 00:22:41,874
Speaker 2: a moment. We need to have an honest discussion about

444
00:22:41,954 --> 00:22:55,714
Speaker 2: dog people because Jennifer Lawrence has really upset them. Jennifer

445
00:22:55,754 --> 00:22:57,954
Speaker 2: Lawrence and I have a lot in common. We're both

446
00:22:57,994 --> 00:22:59,754
Speaker 2: the same age. I'm thirty five years old.

447
00:22:59,914 --> 00:23:04,754
Speaker 1: How about that you're both stunning and very delightful.

448
00:23:05,234 --> 00:23:08,994
Speaker 2: That is a fact. This week, she's copying backlash for

449
00:23:09,074 --> 00:23:12,874
Speaker 2: comments that are in a similar vein to comments I

450
00:23:12,914 --> 00:23:13,834
Speaker 2: made a few years back.

451
00:23:13,994 --> 00:23:15,474
Speaker 1: I'm basically the same person that this one.

452
00:23:15,754 --> 00:23:18,714
Speaker 2: We're the same person. Allow me to explain. Lawrence was

453
00:23:18,754 --> 00:23:22,114
Speaker 2: being interviewed live on stage about her new movie when

454
00:23:22,154 --> 00:23:23,513
Speaker 2: she was asked if she was a dog or a

455
00:23:23,514 --> 00:23:27,794
Speaker 2: cat person. What could not a controversial question in a

456
00:23:27,874 --> 00:23:34,754
Speaker 2: culture war. She was innocent, surely not. Here's what she said.

457
00:23:34,994 --> 00:23:57,513
Speaker 4: I am really uncomfortable and I lived on.

458
00:23:57,594 --> 00:24:03,954
Speaker 5: The first for her anyway, after I had a kid, I.

459
00:24:06,034 --> 00:24:08,754
Speaker 2: Became scared, you know, like my job.

460
00:24:08,874 --> 00:24:10,593
Speaker 5: My son's like going up to it, you know what,

461
00:24:11,074 --> 00:24:13,874
Speaker 5: and like it's almost like I don't recognize dog now,

462
00:24:14,034 --> 00:24:20,354
Speaker 5: Like I just even as a and one of them,

463
00:24:20,674 --> 00:24:24,793
Speaker 5: my son, and that you just want to obliterate a dog.

464
00:24:31,274 --> 00:24:31,594
Speaker 4: And so.

465
00:24:34,594 --> 00:24:38,114
Speaker 1: Obliterate every dog. Okay, could have in different ways. I

466
00:24:38,154 --> 00:24:40,714
Speaker 1: could have the naivety of just thinking you could just

467
00:24:40,834 --> 00:24:43,194
Speaker 1: say that in front of a microphonecy we're back to

468
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:45,914
Speaker 1: the writer's festival. Probably, Yeah, the idea you could just say.

469
00:24:45,674 --> 00:24:48,354
Speaker 2: That Jen, I could have warned you you needed to

470
00:24:48,354 --> 00:24:51,394
Speaker 2: give me a call before you wait into this. People

471
00:24:51,434 --> 00:24:55,793
Speaker 2: got very mad. Comments online labeled her as awful and irresponsible.

472
00:24:56,034 --> 00:24:59,194
Speaker 2: How dare she just throw away her dog because she's

473
00:24:59,234 --> 00:25:01,834
Speaker 2: had a child and her child should just learn to

474
00:25:01,874 --> 00:25:06,074
Speaker 2: behave around animals Like out loud As might remember that

475
00:25:06,154 --> 00:25:09,634
Speaker 2: when I first came back from maternity leave after having

476
00:25:09,914 --> 00:25:13,914
Speaker 2: my little girl, I said that my relationship with my

477
00:25:13,994 --> 00:25:18,273
Speaker 2: dog had changed. Right I saw her for the first

478
00:25:18,274 --> 00:25:23,754
Speaker 2: time as an animal. I had flashes of her attacking

479
00:25:23,954 --> 00:25:29,994
Speaker 2: my newborn. I was extremely cautious and protective, and I

480
00:25:30,074 --> 00:25:33,314
Speaker 2: still loved her, but this shift surprised me, and I

481
00:25:33,354 --> 00:25:37,434
Speaker 2: got so much shit for talking about it. I don't

482
00:25:37,474 --> 00:25:39,634
Speaker 2: look at podcast reviews. And then one day in a

483
00:25:39,714 --> 00:25:43,114
Speaker 2: meeting something came up and they said, oh, what's with

484
00:25:43,194 --> 00:25:45,474
Speaker 2: everyone saying you killed your dog? And I was like,

485
00:25:45,514 --> 00:25:48,674
Speaker 2: wait what? And there were all these reviews saying that

486
00:25:48,754 --> 00:25:51,954
Speaker 2: I had killed my dog after my daughter was born.

487
00:25:52,794 --> 00:25:54,114
Speaker 1: But you were like, who do you think I am?

488
00:25:54,234 --> 00:25:54,954
Speaker 1: Jennifer Laurie.

489
00:25:56,634 --> 00:25:59,034
Speaker 2: So all these people were saying, she never post about

490
00:25:59,034 --> 00:26:02,314
Speaker 2: a dog on Instagram anymore, so obviously she's either killed

491
00:26:02,314 --> 00:26:05,714
Speaker 2: the dog or rehomed the dog, and I was like,

492
00:26:06,514 --> 00:26:08,874
Speaker 2: Chilli is currently having a treat. I just haven't been

493
00:26:08,874 --> 00:26:11,474
Speaker 2: taking as many photos of her, which is not you know,

494
00:26:11,754 --> 00:26:12,793
Speaker 2: call the RSPCA.

495
00:26:13,194 --> 00:26:14,834
Speaker 1: I remember your Instagram stor.

496
00:26:15,754 --> 00:26:18,874
Speaker 2: That was the saddest moment. I'm so mortified.

497
00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:22,914
Speaker 1: She had to deny that she had statements.

498
00:26:23,634 --> 00:26:24,354
Speaker 2: She didn't care.

499
00:26:24,954 --> 00:26:27,354
Speaker 1: I issue a statement to tell you all that.

500
00:26:27,274 --> 00:26:30,553
Speaker 2: My dog is alive and well. And I should have

501
00:26:30,594 --> 00:26:32,634
Speaker 2: had a newspaper up with the date, which I did,

502
00:26:33,394 --> 00:26:37,034
Speaker 2: because it's because it could have been AI. I could

503
00:26:37,034 --> 00:26:39,474
Speaker 2: have just chosen an old photo of Chili. You don't know.

504
00:26:40,194 --> 00:26:43,553
Speaker 2: The point is dog people, of which I think we

505
00:26:43,634 --> 00:26:45,714
Speaker 2: might all consider ourselves dog people.

506
00:26:45,754 --> 00:26:46,434
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say so.

507
00:26:46,594 --> 00:26:48,874
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm a huge dog person. I totally judge Jennifer

508
00:26:48,914 --> 00:26:49,834
Speaker 1: Lawrence's comments.

509
00:26:49,954 --> 00:26:51,954
Speaker 2: Okay, talk to me about that, because I think dog

510
00:26:51,954 --> 00:26:55,234
Speaker 2: people need to get a grip discuss.

511
00:26:54,914 --> 00:26:59,834
Speaker 1: So I empathize. I empathize, right, But I think that

512
00:27:00,034 --> 00:27:02,834
Speaker 1: dog people of a certain kind, and I probably am

513
00:27:02,874 --> 00:27:06,874
Speaker 1: one of these people, we can't possibly imagine that our

514
00:27:07,234 --> 00:27:11,114
Speaker 1: arling doggie would be anything like threatening to anybody, ever,

515
00:27:11,314 --> 00:27:14,273
Speaker 1: even when we're presented with much evidence to the contrary.

516
00:27:14,874 --> 00:27:19,154
Speaker 1: And also, dog people. We always always blame the person,

517
00:27:19,234 --> 00:27:23,114
Speaker 1: not the dog, right always, So we're always saying, if

518
00:27:23,114 --> 00:27:24,834
Speaker 1: you'd only trained that dog better, if you had a

519
00:27:24,834 --> 00:27:27,114
Speaker 1: better handle on that dog, if you would if you

520
00:27:27,114 --> 00:27:29,394
Speaker 1: were a better person. Basically, if you're a better person

521
00:27:29,394 --> 00:27:32,074
Speaker 1: who's given it more time, then you wouldn't have to

522
00:27:32,114 --> 00:27:34,874
Speaker 1: worry about that and that wouldn't happen. Like I sympathize

523
00:27:34,874 --> 00:27:36,474
Speaker 1: with it, really do.

524
00:27:37,034 --> 00:27:38,394
Speaker 2: I remember when I'm obsessed with.

525
00:27:38,354 --> 00:27:40,674
Speaker 1: Dogs, I spend a lot of my time scrolling the

526
00:27:40,714 --> 00:27:44,514
Speaker 1: rescue dog sites and begging Brent, like when when can

527
00:27:44,554 --> 00:27:45,594
Speaker 1: we have another dog?

528
00:27:46,274 --> 00:27:49,874
Speaker 2: I remember when I first met like Meya's family, it

529
00:27:50,034 --> 00:27:52,474
Speaker 2: was just one of her dogs who she still has

530
00:27:52,514 --> 00:27:56,234
Speaker 2: has not Rey homed is mad and I love her,

531
00:27:56,514 --> 00:27:59,353
Speaker 2: but it's like, oh, if she starts barking and losing it,

532
00:27:59,354 --> 00:28:01,434
Speaker 2: it's like, well, you're wearing a hat, take the hat off.

533
00:28:02,074 --> 00:28:05,353
Speaker 3: I remember that she could come to the office. Oh

534
00:28:05,434 --> 00:28:08,034
Speaker 3: my god, one time a training came in and he was.

535
00:28:07,994 --> 00:28:13,554
Speaker 2: Wearing a beet trouble. It's like, it's a cold day,

536
00:28:13,554 --> 00:28:14,514
Speaker 2: he's got a cold hair.

537
00:28:14,594 --> 00:28:15,034
Speaker 1: Wrong with you?

538
00:28:15,154 --> 00:28:16,834
Speaker 2: Take your hat off and stop being a man.

539
00:28:16,914 --> 00:28:22,114
Speaker 1: Also, because my dog obviously is an angel and if

540
00:28:22,114 --> 00:28:25,074
Speaker 1: she barks at somebody, because she lefs she often does,

541
00:28:25,714 --> 00:28:30,394
Speaker 1: I entirely blame them. What's your problem with you? I

542
00:28:30,554 --> 00:28:33,754
Speaker 1: know that's wrong, But I also deeply believe that she

543
00:28:33,874 --> 00:28:36,234
Speaker 1: can sense that there is indeed something wrong with you.

544
00:28:36,754 --> 00:28:39,274
Speaker 2: Okay, but can we acknowledge this is the thing you

545
00:28:39,314 --> 00:28:44,754
Speaker 2: read when your postparton. Like I looked at stairs differently, balconies, buses,

546
00:28:44,914 --> 00:28:48,914
Speaker 2: looked at her, all curbs, everything, everything is a threat.

547
00:28:48,954 --> 00:28:51,674
Speaker 2: And there are stories and they come up and they

548
00:28:51,914 --> 00:28:55,634
Speaker 2: find me in my feeds of a dog mauling a child.

549
00:28:55,914 --> 00:28:58,674
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I have to say, for all my joshing

550
00:28:58,714 --> 00:29:03,594
Speaker 1: about that, I am always very uncomfortable and also as

551
00:29:03,594 --> 00:29:05,554
Speaker 1: far as my hat where my empathy goes to that,

552
00:29:05,674 --> 00:29:07,594
Speaker 1: of course it goes to you. And I didn't have

553
00:29:07,634 --> 00:29:09,114
Speaker 1: a dog when I had a little babies. Why I

554
00:29:09,194 --> 00:29:11,194
Speaker 1: got a dog when my kids were bigger. But I'm

555
00:29:11,234 --> 00:29:16,674
Speaker 1: always very uncomfortable when people let their little kids just

556
00:29:16,754 --> 00:29:17,714
Speaker 1: come right up to the dog.

557
00:29:17,754 --> 00:29:19,674
Speaker 2: And because the kids as unpredictable as the dog.

558
00:29:19,834 --> 00:29:22,074
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you don't just because you don't know, Like,

559
00:29:22,154 --> 00:29:25,194
Speaker 1: my dog's generally great with kids, but they're a wild animal, right,

560
00:29:25,234 --> 00:29:28,354
Speaker 1: So I totally get that so I'm being facetious.

561
00:29:28,354 --> 00:29:30,394
Speaker 2: Really, was it obliterate all dogs?

562
00:29:30,994 --> 00:29:34,914
Speaker 1: I obliterate all dogs, And I guess it is really

563
00:29:34,914 --> 00:29:38,554
Speaker 1: interesting when your dog does something not to a person

564
00:29:38,674 --> 00:29:40,994
Speaker 1: or but like that makes you remember that they're an animal,

565
00:29:41,074 --> 00:29:43,554
Speaker 1: like kills another animal, you know, like kills a mouse

566
00:29:43,634 --> 00:29:46,354
Speaker 1: or a possum or whatever, and you're suddenly like they're

567
00:29:46,354 --> 00:29:50,474
Speaker 1: this bloodthirsty and you're like, I need to reassess. Really,

568
00:29:50,634 --> 00:29:53,234
Speaker 1: I thought you were a baby wearing a fur coat.

569
00:29:54,714 --> 00:29:57,994
Speaker 3: But there are also different tiers of dog people. I

570
00:29:57,994 --> 00:30:00,834
Speaker 3: would say, I'm not like a dog dog dog person.

571
00:30:00,954 --> 00:30:02,834
Speaker 3: I'm like a dog dog person. So I've grown up

572
00:30:02,834 --> 00:30:05,594
Speaker 3: with dogs I passed away like my family dogs. I

573
00:30:05,834 --> 00:30:09,074
Speaker 3: desperately want to get a dog so badly, Like I'm

574
00:30:09,074 --> 00:30:10,794
Speaker 3: looking at like you're not in the right life stage,

575
00:30:11,034 --> 00:30:13,074
Speaker 3: I know, and everyone keeps saying that, But I want

576
00:30:13,074 --> 00:30:15,474
Speaker 3: to be and I know I will change for this dog,

577
00:30:15,794 --> 00:30:18,114
Speaker 3: and I want this dog so badly. But then I

578
00:30:18,274 --> 00:30:21,514
Speaker 3: look at my life stage, and I look at how

579
00:30:21,514 --> 00:30:23,234
Speaker 3: I'm living in the city in an apartment, and I

580
00:30:23,234 --> 00:30:24,834
Speaker 3: look at my friends who have dogs, who are also

581
00:30:24,874 --> 00:30:26,994
Speaker 3: living in the city in an apartment, and I'm judging

582
00:30:26,994 --> 00:30:27,954
Speaker 3: those dogs.

583
00:30:27,954 --> 00:30:29,554
Speaker 1: You're judging the dogs or your friends.

584
00:30:29,554 --> 00:30:32,074
Speaker 3: I'm judging the dog for having a better life than me,

585
00:30:32,394 --> 00:30:34,274
Speaker 3: because dogs aren't meant to have a better life than me.

586
00:30:34,314 --> 00:30:36,994
Speaker 3: The dogs I grew up with and the dogs I

587
00:30:37,074 --> 00:30:39,554
Speaker 3: know how to be with are dogs that stayed outside

588
00:30:39,594 --> 00:30:41,674
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the day. They came inside for like

589
00:30:41,714 --> 00:30:43,594
Speaker 3: a little treat, and when they came inside it was

590
00:30:43,594 --> 00:30:45,914
Speaker 3: like on the tile floor. Yeah, and then they will

591
00:30:45,954 --> 00:30:48,714
Speaker 3: have like the most basic kibble, like the most basic leads,

592
00:30:48,754 --> 00:30:52,074
Speaker 3: the most basic toys. They never were allowed in our

593
00:30:52,114 --> 00:30:54,954
Speaker 3: beds upstairs unless it was maybe their birthday for a few.

594
00:30:54,754 --> 00:30:59,874
Speaker 2: Minutes, which they obviously because of their calendar in their kennel.

595
00:30:58,914 --> 00:31:01,914
Speaker 3: Would he would be like, please let them upstairs, and

596
00:31:01,954 --> 00:31:04,274
Speaker 3: Mum will be like okay for ten minutes. But they

597
00:31:04,274 --> 00:31:06,394
Speaker 3: were like all they were always outside dogs. I say

598
00:31:06,594 --> 00:31:09,834
Speaker 3: outside they dog dogs. And then I are seeing the

599
00:31:09,954 --> 00:31:13,074
Speaker 3: dogs my friends have, and it's like they're paying so

600
00:31:13,314 --> 00:31:16,994
Speaker 3: much for like cooking chicken and vegetables for them, for

601
00:31:17,074 --> 00:31:19,634
Speaker 3: like getting like one on one training with them, kind

602
00:31:19,634 --> 00:31:21,354
Speaker 3: of training for myself.

603
00:31:21,434 --> 00:31:24,634
Speaker 2: No, the professional dog walking market is just booming. Dog

604
00:31:24,754 --> 00:31:27,474
Speaker 2: daycare yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, where they get like

605
00:31:27,554 --> 00:31:30,954
Speaker 2: toys and stimulation and stuffy room. It's unbelievable.

606
00:31:30,954 --> 00:31:33,714
Speaker 1: Clothes clothed. I don't put my dog in clothes. That

607
00:31:33,714 --> 00:31:35,994
Speaker 1: would be very disrespectful. She would not like it, but

608
00:31:36,074 --> 00:31:39,634
Speaker 1: lots of people do, big market there. It's unbelievable.

609
00:31:39,834 --> 00:31:41,794
Speaker 2: You know what. This is not the first time that

610
00:31:41,834 --> 00:31:45,194
Speaker 2: a female celebrity has been dragged for talking about rehoming

611
00:31:45,234 --> 00:31:48,114
Speaker 2: a dog. Lily Allen talked about it last year. She

612
00:31:48,194 --> 00:31:51,194
Speaker 2: said her dog ate her passport in her kids' passports,

613
00:31:51,514 --> 00:31:53,714
Speaker 2: and she rehomed the dog, and everyone, I think Peter

614
00:31:54,034 --> 00:31:58,354
Speaker 2: came out and like said, that is unacceptable. Just when

615
00:31:58,394 --> 00:32:01,514
Speaker 2: dogs become inconvenient, you don't just throw them away. And

616
00:32:01,554 --> 00:32:04,514
Speaker 2: she said, hang on, there was a pattern of behavior

617
00:32:04,514 --> 00:32:05,554
Speaker 2: that I haven't gone into.

618
00:32:05,754 --> 00:32:08,354
Speaker 1: And also surely rehearsing it to a good home is

619
00:32:08,394 --> 00:32:10,074
Speaker 1: better than keeping it and making.

620
00:32:09,874 --> 00:32:13,314
Speaker 2: It miserable, exactly. And there's a list like Lena Dunham

621
00:32:13,434 --> 00:32:13,714
Speaker 2: is one.

622
00:32:13,914 --> 00:32:16,194
Speaker 1: I think Kim Kardashian brought a poppy for every one

623
00:32:16,234 --> 00:32:18,594
Speaker 1: of her two hundred children on the Christmas. Yeah, Peter

624
00:32:18,714 --> 00:32:21,314
Speaker 1: was annoyed about that home because who's looking after them? Well,

625
00:32:21,354 --> 00:32:23,714
Speaker 1: I imagine some very highly paid professionals.

626
00:32:24,674 --> 00:32:28,794
Speaker 2: Because the Kardashians have. Kim in particular, has faced a

627
00:32:28,794 --> 00:32:31,354
Speaker 2: lot of criticism because they often have new animals. They

628
00:32:31,394 --> 00:32:33,314
Speaker 2: had a bit of Dragon at one stage.

629
00:32:33,274 --> 00:32:35,434
Speaker 3: And there was this one whole episode where she tried

630
00:32:35,474 --> 00:32:38,754
Speaker 3: to swap her dog with Courtney's dog because her dog

631
00:32:38,834 --> 00:32:39,634
Speaker 3: barked too much.

632
00:32:40,154 --> 00:32:42,794
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So what happens with the Kardashians is that

633
00:32:42,874 --> 00:32:45,394
Speaker 2: often they feature a new animal and then that animal disappears,

634
00:32:45,634 --> 00:32:48,994
Speaker 2: and that is just a big no no among dog people.

635
00:32:49,314 --> 00:32:51,314
Speaker 2: And the thing that these celebrities have in common is

636
00:32:51,354 --> 00:32:54,514
Speaker 2: that they're almost always women. And I reckon we have

637
00:32:54,674 --> 00:33:02,194
Speaker 2: far less tolerance for women rehoming or talking about the

638
00:33:02,234 --> 00:33:06,274
Speaker 2: burden of care than men, because we expect that women's

639
00:33:06,954 --> 00:33:10,114
Speaker 2: caring facilities, their ability to just give and give and

640
00:33:10,154 --> 00:33:11,914
Speaker 2: give and give is infinite.

641
00:33:11,994 --> 00:33:12,394
Speaker 1: Yeah.

642
00:33:12,434 --> 00:33:15,634
Speaker 2: And with Jennifer Lawrence, it's like, you have two babies,

643
00:33:15,874 --> 00:33:18,954
Speaker 2: little little kids, you can't still give as much to

644
00:33:19,034 --> 00:33:22,634
Speaker 2: your You're not allowed to admit that maybe you can't.

645
00:33:22,874 --> 00:33:26,674
Speaker 1: I think that's very valid, Jesse, because also I think

646
00:33:26,674 --> 00:33:29,354
Speaker 1: about the women I know whose children are old enough

647
00:33:29,394 --> 00:33:32,514
Speaker 1: to be begging them for a dog, right, And every

648
00:33:32,594 --> 00:33:35,554
Speaker 1: woman I know in that situation knows that when that dog,

649
00:33:35,634 --> 00:33:38,074
Speaker 1: that puppy comes into her house that is now her

650
00:33:38,194 --> 00:33:39,194
Speaker 1: third child or.

651
00:33:39,394 --> 00:33:42,114
Speaker 2: Fourth child or whatever, and she'll be judged if that dog,

652
00:33:42,154 --> 00:33:42,874
Speaker 2: and she will.

653
00:33:42,714 --> 00:33:45,514
Speaker 1: Be doing everything for it, and she will be making

654
00:33:45,634 --> 00:33:48,714
Speaker 1: and it's another job and another caring responsibility for her.

655
00:33:49,074 --> 00:33:53,034
Speaker 1: But then there's this like nurture conflict between But my

656
00:33:53,154 --> 00:33:55,794
Speaker 1: babies really want a baby, you know, You've got this

657
00:33:55,834 --> 00:33:58,554
Speaker 1: whole thing going on. Women will generally take on the

658
00:33:58,594 --> 00:34:00,634
Speaker 1: care of that. My thing is that to be a

659
00:34:00,634 --> 00:34:04,554
Speaker 1: really responsible dog owner, just like being a really responsible parent,

660
00:34:04,674 --> 00:34:06,634
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do it unless you're ready for it and

661
00:34:06,674 --> 00:34:08,593
Speaker 1: you prepare to give it what it needs. And so

662
00:34:09,034 --> 00:34:11,074
Speaker 1: I think that actually, as much as I'm taking the

663
00:34:11,114 --> 00:34:14,154
Speaker 1: piss out of Generala for being wanting to obliterate all dogs,

664
00:34:14,154 --> 00:34:17,114
Speaker 1: it's a responsible thing to do to recognize you can't

665
00:34:17,154 --> 00:34:19,234
Speaker 1: give a dog the kind of home that it needs

666
00:34:19,634 --> 00:34:22,074
Speaker 1: and give it another home. It's not a terrible thing

667
00:34:22,114 --> 00:34:22,393
Speaker 1: to do.

668
00:34:22,594 --> 00:34:25,154
Speaker 2: Exactly right, And the dog is with her parents, which

669
00:34:25,194 --> 00:34:28,994
Speaker 2: is absolutely fine. The monster, yeah, exactly, the dog.

670
00:34:28,914 --> 00:34:30,953
Speaker 3: Is At the end, she said, so I'm probably a

671
00:34:30,954 --> 00:34:31,634
Speaker 3: cat person.

672
00:34:31,874 --> 00:34:34,834
Speaker 1: Oh oh wow. You don't have to flip general, You

673
00:34:34,834 --> 00:34:35,674
Speaker 1: don't have to flip.

674
00:34:35,834 --> 00:34:36,554
Speaker 2: You can be both.

675
00:34:36,914 --> 00:34:38,594
Speaker 1: You can be birth or you can stay with us.

676
00:34:38,834 --> 00:34:40,914
Speaker 1: I fear for you, Jesse, because you have waited into

677
00:34:40,954 --> 00:34:42,914
Speaker 1: one of the big hot issues about.

678
00:34:42,874 --> 00:34:44,634
Speaker 2: I know, I know, and look I still I love

679
00:34:44,634 --> 00:34:46,514
Speaker 2: my dog. I love my dog Chili. I'm gonna have

680
00:34:46,514 --> 00:34:47,594
Speaker 2: two newborns.

681
00:34:47,634 --> 00:34:48,953
Speaker 3: But you know what, I think you need to press

682
00:34:48,994 --> 00:34:50,194
Speaker 3: another photo of Chili before you.

683
00:34:50,274 --> 00:34:52,794
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yes, I'll do a carousel of just

684
00:34:52,874 --> 00:34:57,274
Speaker 2: Chili in all different places in my house, just smiling, smile, Chili,

685
00:34:57,554 --> 00:34:58,194
Speaker 2: just look loved.

686
00:34:58,394 --> 00:35:02,154
Speaker 1: Remember that newspaper date. Yes, so when the twins come,

687
00:35:02,314 --> 00:35:05,554
Speaker 1: just exactly, yeah, definitely today.

688
00:35:08,074 --> 00:35:11,953
Speaker 3: There is this creator influencer I also want to call

689
00:35:11,994 --> 00:35:15,354
Speaker 3: her a dating guru tinks. She became very famous on

690
00:35:15,394 --> 00:35:17,434
Speaker 3: TikTok and then she wrote this book called The Shift,

691
00:35:17,754 --> 00:35:21,154
Speaker 3: and now she does these ask Me Anything Instagram stories

692
00:35:21,194 --> 00:35:23,714
Speaker 3: where every few days she'd tell her audience to ask

693
00:35:23,714 --> 00:35:25,953
Speaker 3: her any questions and then she'll just talk about them.

694
00:35:26,234 --> 00:35:29,074
Speaker 3: And there was one question in particular that she talked

695
00:35:29,074 --> 00:35:30,394
Speaker 3: about on TikTok.

696
00:35:30,474 --> 00:35:32,593
Speaker 4: This is what she said, had someone ask me today

697
00:35:32,594 --> 00:35:34,954
Speaker 4: if they should take one hundred and twenty k remote

698
00:35:35,234 --> 00:35:37,514
Speaker 4: fully remote or two hundred and forty K to go

699
00:35:37,514 --> 00:35:40,074
Speaker 4: into the office, and I was like who, And without

700
00:35:40,114 --> 00:35:43,114
Speaker 4: even checking their profile, I absolutely knew they were a

701
00:35:43,154 --> 00:35:45,634
Speaker 4: gen Z. I knew their age started with the two.

702
00:35:46,074 --> 00:35:49,954
Speaker 4: Because for you to even ask the question of whether

703
00:35:50,074 --> 00:35:54,234
Speaker 4: you should take one hundred and twenty thousand extra dollars

704
00:35:54,274 --> 00:35:56,274
Speaker 4: a year just to go to the office, just to

705
00:35:56,314 --> 00:35:59,234
Speaker 4: march your little booty to the office, sit there, fuck

706
00:35:59,274 --> 00:36:02,234
Speaker 4: around for a few hours, make some friends, eat the

707
00:36:02,274 --> 00:36:05,033
Speaker 4: free donuts, and leave. What do you guys think goes

708
00:36:05,034 --> 00:36:07,794
Speaker 4: on at the office. It's not that scary. It was

709
00:36:08,994 --> 00:36:11,954
Speaker 4: for a time, but right now it's it's not that scary.

710
00:36:12,474 --> 00:36:14,473
Speaker 4: It's not that scary, especially for one hundred and twenty

711
00:36:14,554 --> 00:36:15,794
Speaker 4: thousand extra dollars a year.

712
00:36:16,714 --> 00:36:18,994
Speaker 1: It's not that scary. It's nice.

713
00:36:19,034 --> 00:36:21,834
Speaker 4: It gives you structure, make you guys less weird, if

714
00:36:21,874 --> 00:36:24,074
Speaker 4: you meet some friends. I had somewhere to be.

715
00:36:24,634 --> 00:36:29,834
Speaker 1: A millennial woman's grand Okay, can we just say that

716
00:36:29,914 --> 00:36:32,234
Speaker 1: this is a good problem to have because both of

717
00:36:32,234 --> 00:36:35,754
Speaker 1: those salaries are very good salary, particularly American, but even Australian.

718
00:36:35,794 --> 00:36:38,354
Speaker 1: Theo's So if you're choosing between one hundred and twenty

719
00:36:38,394 --> 00:36:41,234
Speaker 1: K two hundred and forty, you're probably doing all right, but

720
00:36:41,394 --> 00:36:45,754
Speaker 1: that is wild. I read the comments and a lot

721
00:36:45,794 --> 00:36:47,634
Speaker 1: of people were like, no, my mental health is worth

722
00:36:47,674 --> 00:36:49,354
Speaker 1: more than one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. I was like,

723
00:36:49,394 --> 00:36:51,393
Speaker 1: your mental health is worth more than one hundred and

724
00:36:51,394 --> 00:36:53,913
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars. We'll love to say that.

725
00:36:56,154 --> 00:37:01,194
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm maybe sad, but I am rich.

726
00:37:03,194 --> 00:37:04,834
Speaker 3: I am sad in my mansion.

727
00:37:07,194 --> 00:37:10,034
Speaker 2: I kind of get it right. And look, I don't

728
00:37:10,034 --> 00:37:11,674
Speaker 2: want to bring it back to kids, but I think

729
00:37:11,674 --> 00:37:13,674
Speaker 2: that that's something to acknowledge, right, if you are at

730
00:37:13,714 --> 00:37:16,594
Speaker 2: a stage in your life. I have a friend who

731
00:37:17,034 --> 00:37:19,434
Speaker 2: has more than a ninety minute ninety minutes on a

732
00:37:19,434 --> 00:37:22,154
Speaker 2: good day commute, and she worked out that if she

733
00:37:22,234 --> 00:37:24,473
Speaker 2: commuted into an office five days a week, she would

734
00:37:24,514 --> 00:37:28,354
Speaker 2: not see her child for five days, right because they

735
00:37:28,514 --> 00:37:30,114
Speaker 2: get up and then they go to bed really early,

736
00:37:30,154 --> 00:37:31,794
Speaker 2: and it's like that the child would be and care

737
00:37:31,874 --> 00:37:34,834
Speaker 2: all of that, Like that is worth to her. It

738
00:37:34,954 --> 00:37:38,474
Speaker 2: is worth more the lower salary to see her child.

739
00:37:39,154 --> 00:37:42,714
Speaker 2: The other thing, in defense of the gens or people

740
00:37:42,714 --> 00:37:44,194
Speaker 2: who don't have kids or he are in a different

741
00:37:44,234 --> 00:37:49,274
Speaker 2: life stage that commute and I'm thinking long commutes. Full disclosure,

742
00:37:49,314 --> 00:37:52,874
Speaker 2: I live fifteen minutes from the office, fifteen minute drive fast.

743
00:37:53,154 --> 00:37:57,314
Speaker 2: Excuse me to come back to the office five days.

744
00:37:57,434 --> 00:38:00,034
Speaker 2: Is not the same as asking Holly Waynwright to come

745
00:38:00,034 --> 00:38:02,514
Speaker 2: back to the office for five days. What happened post

746
00:38:02,514 --> 00:38:04,913
Speaker 2: COVID is that a lot of people moved out. It's

747
00:38:05,034 --> 00:38:07,513
Speaker 2: cost of living data DA. We don't need to lay

748
00:38:07,514 --> 00:38:09,473
Speaker 2: all that out, but basically, more and more people are

749
00:38:09,514 --> 00:38:14,393
Speaker 2: moving away from an office. The difference in remote and

750
00:38:14,554 --> 00:38:17,514
Speaker 2: office work is if you are going into an office,

751
00:38:17,554 --> 00:38:19,993
Speaker 2: you probably don't have time to exercise, You probably don't

752
00:38:20,034 --> 00:38:23,154
Speaker 2: have time to cook. You probably are going to sacrifice

753
00:38:23,314 --> 00:38:27,234
Speaker 2: on sleep. So all of these markers have just well

754
00:38:27,274 --> 00:38:29,714
Speaker 2: being and living a balanced life. You're probably not going

755
00:38:29,754 --> 00:38:32,234
Speaker 2: to speak to your partner all week if you are

756
00:38:32,234 --> 00:38:35,634
Speaker 2: taking these long, long drives. Okay, whatt it? What if

757
00:38:35,714 --> 00:38:36,513
Speaker 2: we change it too?

758
00:38:37,274 --> 00:38:40,873
Speaker 3: Your travel into the office also counts as like work

759
00:38:40,954 --> 00:38:43,514
Speaker 3: time for that change.

760
00:38:43,594 --> 00:38:45,754
Speaker 2: Okay, so you can leave your house, you can get

761
00:38:45,754 --> 00:38:48,234
Speaker 2: on a train at eight thirty.

762
00:38:47,994 --> 00:38:50,794
Speaker 3: Yeap, and like that's also when you start the clock.

763
00:38:50,994 --> 00:38:53,634
Speaker 2: That would be good, that's much better I think for that.

764
00:38:53,754 --> 00:38:56,314
Speaker 2: I'm taking the two hundred and forty. Yeah, absolutely, I'm

765
00:38:56,314 --> 00:38:57,274
Speaker 2: taking the biggest salary.

766
00:38:57,474 --> 00:38:59,554
Speaker 1: First of all, what do you think, m because you

767
00:38:59,594 --> 00:39:02,473
Speaker 1: haven't actually expressed your opinion when you first read this,

768
00:39:02,634 --> 00:39:05,154
Speaker 1: assuming that because we don't know this woman's life, how

769
00:39:05,194 --> 00:39:07,074
Speaker 1: far away she lives, blah blah blah, But just assume

770
00:39:07,274 --> 00:39:09,593
Speaker 1: this is you on the surface, what's your view?

771
00:39:09,794 --> 00:39:12,513
Speaker 3: I was kind of very similar to things. I saw

772
00:39:12,514 --> 00:39:15,034
Speaker 3: this question first on her Instagram stories as like a

773
00:39:15,034 --> 00:39:17,754
Speaker 3: text post, and before I even saw her auntser, I'm like,

774
00:39:18,034 --> 00:39:19,314
Speaker 3: who would pick the one twenty?

775
00:39:19,474 --> 00:39:20,033
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right?

776
00:39:20,434 --> 00:39:22,994
Speaker 1: And again you were like, who are these crazy people?

777
00:39:23,394 --> 00:39:25,873
Speaker 1: And I think, as I said, both these salaries are good.

778
00:39:25,954 --> 00:39:27,954
Speaker 1: So let's assume that the one twenty can pay for

779
00:39:27,954 --> 00:39:29,433
Speaker 1: what you need it to pay for, so you know,

780
00:39:29,474 --> 00:39:32,114
Speaker 1: you rent your whatever you can. Then it's the question

781
00:39:32,154 --> 00:39:34,354
Speaker 1: of how much more do you need and how much

782
00:39:34,434 --> 00:39:37,154
Speaker 1: you have to sacrifice to get it? I relate to

783
00:39:37,314 --> 00:39:41,474
Speaker 1: at different times, live stages, there are things more important

784
00:39:41,514 --> 00:39:46,354
Speaker 1: than money, assuming again privileged statement, assuming again that your

785
00:39:46,394 --> 00:39:49,834
Speaker 1: needs are taken care of. I have, at certain point

786
00:39:49,874 --> 00:39:54,074
Speaker 1: in my work life wanted extra holiday days more than

787
00:39:54,114 --> 00:39:56,754
Speaker 1: I wanted a pay rise, for example, so I asked

788
00:39:56,754 --> 00:39:58,834
Speaker 1: for that. I was like, instead of a pay rise,

789
00:39:58,954 --> 00:40:01,674
Speaker 1: which I thought, I deserved whatever. I want a couple

790
00:40:01,674 --> 00:40:03,513
Speaker 1: more holiday days because if you've got kids who are

791
00:40:03,514 --> 00:40:06,794
Speaker 1: on school holidays and stuff, holiday days become really important.

792
00:40:07,474 --> 00:40:09,953
Speaker 1: I know people and I have different points who've said,

793
00:40:10,034 --> 00:40:12,554
Speaker 1: instead of negotiating for a pay rise for promotion, what

794
00:40:12,634 --> 00:40:15,594
Speaker 1: about I got some flexibility for it. Now, there are

795
00:40:15,674 --> 00:40:18,554
Speaker 1: lots of obviously laws around all this stuff, and we're

796
00:40:18,554 --> 00:40:21,433
Speaker 1: not talking about that. We're talking very vague, high level.

797
00:40:21,714 --> 00:40:24,154
Speaker 1: I think that you recognize that for different people, at

798
00:40:24,154 --> 00:40:29,954
Speaker 1: different times, money isn't the most important thing, but unquestionably

799
00:40:30,114 --> 00:40:33,074
Speaker 1: that is a lot of money that is a massive difference.

800
00:40:33,114 --> 00:40:36,953
Speaker 1: And I think that most people probably would go even

801
00:40:36,954 --> 00:40:38,274
Speaker 1: if it's that thing of like I'm not going to

802
00:40:38,274 --> 00:40:40,754
Speaker 1: see my family, is you might you'd go, I'm not

803
00:40:40,754 --> 00:40:42,114
Speaker 1: going to see my family for a year. I'm going

804
00:40:42,194 --> 00:40:43,553
Speaker 1: to suck it up and I'm going to take the money.

805
00:40:43,594 --> 00:40:45,234
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I mean, obviously you are

806
00:40:45,314 --> 00:40:46,393
Speaker 1: going to see your family for.

807
00:40:46,354 --> 00:40:48,274
Speaker 3: A year, but I'm wont to see my family, but

808
00:40:48,314 --> 00:40:51,873
Speaker 3: I'll see them on our holiday in Italy exactly because.

809
00:40:52,474 --> 00:40:56,874
Speaker 1: So many people make sacrifices in order to for financial security,

810
00:40:56,914 --> 00:41:00,314
Speaker 1: it's really common. The thing that's interesting about this is

811
00:41:00,394 --> 00:41:03,033
Speaker 1: that it is seen so much as a generational thing

812
00:41:03,154 --> 00:41:06,234
Speaker 1: that in the comments, because if you're in my life

813
00:41:06,274 --> 00:41:08,114
Speaker 1: stage and yours just so, you're kind of thinking, oh yeah,

814
00:41:08,154 --> 00:41:10,354
Speaker 1: flexibility for family and dah da da da dah. But

815
00:41:10,394 --> 00:41:12,594
Speaker 1: if you're purely seeing this as tinkstin, it's like, this

816
00:41:12,714 --> 00:41:16,593
Speaker 1: is just a generation who don't value office work. It's like, Wow,

817
00:41:16,634 --> 00:41:19,114
Speaker 1: they don't value it to double their salary amount.

818
00:41:20,594 --> 00:41:21,354
Speaker 2: I respect it.

819
00:41:22,034 --> 00:41:25,034
Speaker 3: After the break, Timothy challo May has forced our hand

820
00:41:25,154 --> 00:41:29,114
Speaker 3: in laying out the guidelines for the Anatomy of a Relationship.

821
00:41:30,474 --> 00:41:34,234
Speaker 1: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

822
00:41:34,274 --> 00:41:38,354
Speaker 1: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

823
00:41:38,354 --> 00:41:40,114
Speaker 1: in the show notes to get us in your ears

824
00:41:40,394 --> 00:41:43,114
Speaker 1: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

825
00:41:43,314 --> 00:41:56,154
Speaker 1: all our current subscribers.

826
00:41:57,554 --> 00:42:01,354
Speaker 3: Timothy challo May has been cleaning up during award season

827
00:42:01,434 --> 00:42:03,674
Speaker 3: so far, and there's only been two awards and he's

828
00:42:03,714 --> 00:42:06,154
Speaker 3: got both of them. So he won the Best Lead

829
00:42:06,194 --> 00:42:08,513
Speaker 3: Actor in the Critics Choice Award and the Best Lead

830
00:42:08,554 --> 00:42:11,754
Speaker 3: Actor in the Golden Globes And in his acceptance speech

831
00:42:11,794 --> 00:42:14,554
Speaker 3: he thanked one Kylie Jenna, who we know he has

832
00:42:14,594 --> 00:42:17,354
Speaker 3: been dating for quite some time now. In his Critics'

833
00:42:17,394 --> 00:42:20,794
Speaker 3: Choice Award speech, he said, to my partner of three years,

834
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:23,634
Speaker 3: thank you for our foundation. I love you. I couldn't

835
00:42:23,674 --> 00:42:25,554
Speaker 3: do this without you. Thank you from the boondom of

836
00:42:25,554 --> 00:42:28,354
Speaker 3: my heart. In his Golden Globe speech, he said to

837
00:42:28,394 --> 00:42:32,834
Speaker 3: my parents and my partner, thank you. So we knew

838
00:42:32,874 --> 00:42:35,634
Speaker 3: that these two have been dating for a while, he said,

839
00:42:35,634 --> 00:42:39,274
Speaker 3: three years. Did we know with the usage of the

840
00:42:39,274 --> 00:42:41,873
Speaker 3: word partner that they were on partner level?

841
00:42:41,954 --> 00:42:43,913
Speaker 1: And what does partner level mean? Oh?

842
00:42:43,954 --> 00:42:47,194
Speaker 2: I think it means. It is so loaded. I reckon

843
00:42:47,434 --> 00:42:50,834
Speaker 2: that his use of the word partner is about elevating

844
00:42:51,234 --> 00:42:55,714
Speaker 2: Kylie Jenner to go. I hear your mocking. I hear

845
00:42:56,274 --> 00:42:59,714
Speaker 2: the way that you treat her as unserious because she's

846
00:42:59,754 --> 00:43:04,114
Speaker 2: a reality tvaster. But in saying that she's my partner

847
00:43:04,354 --> 00:43:06,873
Speaker 2: of three years, of three years, I'm saying that she

848
00:43:06,994 --> 00:43:11,114
Speaker 2: is my equal, that we're like a team, and that

849
00:43:11,154 --> 00:43:12,954
Speaker 2: we're grown ups. He is someone who's been in the

850
00:43:12,954 --> 00:43:16,474
Speaker 2: public eye for more than thirteen years and he is

851
00:43:16,554 --> 00:43:19,874
Speaker 2: now thirty, and I reckon he's trying to establish himself

852
00:43:19,914 --> 00:43:21,873
Speaker 2: as an adult in this world and kind of go,

853
00:43:21,994 --> 00:43:26,674
Speaker 2: I'm not some young silly star who has a new

854
00:43:26,714 --> 00:43:29,314
Speaker 2: girlfriend every five minutes. I don't I've been with her.

855
00:43:29,714 --> 00:43:30,794
Speaker 2: Do we know if they live together?

856
00:43:31,034 --> 00:43:33,714
Speaker 1: Well, so you'll be surprised to hear. I did some

857
00:43:33,834 --> 00:43:38,913
Speaker 1: diving about this because I thought that the ladder of

858
00:43:39,074 --> 00:43:44,274
Speaker 1: like relationship status goes like, oh, we're seeing each other, right,

859
00:43:44,634 --> 00:43:47,274
Speaker 1: which I think is what you might call a situation.

860
00:43:46,954 --> 00:43:50,314
Speaker 3: Ship me ongoing is oh, we're seeing each other all right. Oh,

861
00:43:50,354 --> 00:43:51,513
Speaker 3: I think we're seeing each other.

862
00:43:51,674 --> 00:43:55,634
Speaker 1: He thinks he's single, So we're seeing each other. Is

863
00:43:55,674 --> 00:43:59,194
Speaker 1: like early days dating. Then there's like you might say

864
00:43:59,234 --> 00:44:02,834
Speaker 1: girlfriend or boyfriend, right, And I remember the time when

865
00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:06,274
Speaker 1: that would be like, oh he said girlfriend. Oh my god,

866
00:44:06,274 --> 00:44:10,754
Speaker 1: I said girlfriend. Stop it like that kind of shit.

867
00:44:11,754 --> 00:44:15,274
Speaker 1: I thought the partner was moving in together. I thought

868
00:44:15,274 --> 00:44:17,834
Speaker 1: that was the rule, like you weren't a partner until

869
00:44:17,874 --> 00:44:20,714
Speaker 1: you are cohabiting. So I needed to go on fact

870
00:44:20,754 --> 00:44:23,433
Speaker 1: check whether or not Timothy's allowed to call Kylie that

871
00:44:23,474 --> 00:44:27,474
Speaker 1: according to my life rules. And they do not live together,

872
00:44:27,954 --> 00:44:31,834
Speaker 1: but they have keys to each other's many houses, so

873
00:44:31,914 --> 00:44:34,114
Speaker 1: she lives in Calabasis or wherever all that they all live,

874
00:44:34,194 --> 00:44:38,433
Speaker 1: or you wouldn't know that he has an estate not

875
00:44:38,514 --> 00:44:40,354
Speaker 1: in the kind of estate I grew up near, but

876
00:44:40,434 --> 00:44:44,433
Speaker 1: an estate in Beverly Hills. And he also is from

877
00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:46,674
Speaker 1: New York and has a fancy place in New York.

878
00:44:47,034 --> 00:44:50,714
Speaker 1: So these are very rich people with biicoastal lifestyle, and

879
00:44:50,754 --> 00:44:52,674
Speaker 1: they have keys to each other's houses. But I don't

880
00:44:52,714 --> 00:44:55,754
Speaker 1: think that Timothy's making eggs first stormy every morning. So

881
00:44:56,434 --> 00:44:59,514
Speaker 1: am I wrong in thinking that partner is the signifier

882
00:44:59,554 --> 00:45:00,433
Speaker 1: of cohabitation?

883
00:45:00,794 --> 00:45:03,874
Speaker 2: Yes, you are completely wrong. I yes, because I also

884
00:45:04,674 --> 00:45:07,954
Speaker 2: think and I'd like your opinion on this him. I

885
00:45:07,994 --> 00:45:11,234
Speaker 2: got to an age where I felt like describing someone

886
00:45:11,234 --> 00:45:14,433
Speaker 2: as my boyfriend made me sound juvenile. Yeah, it made

887
00:45:14,434 --> 00:45:15,474
Speaker 2: me sound.

888
00:45:15,434 --> 00:45:16,634
Speaker 1: That's what I like about it.

889
00:45:18,034 --> 00:45:19,994
Speaker 2: I just didn't like. I was like, how can I

890
00:45:20,114 --> 00:45:24,354
Speaker 2: call the boyfriend that I had when I was sixteen

891
00:45:24,514 --> 00:45:27,634
Speaker 2: is not the same as the person I've been dating

892
00:45:27,634 --> 00:45:29,754
Speaker 2: for a year at twenty six, Like, it's not.

893
00:45:29,994 --> 00:45:33,234
Speaker 3: It does feel very like childish, Like I feel like

894
00:45:33,314 --> 00:45:35,834
Speaker 3: if I were to have a boyfriend right now, I

895
00:45:35,874 --> 00:45:38,314
Speaker 3: would have like two years max for being able to

896
00:45:38,314 --> 00:45:40,434
Speaker 3: call him my boyfriend before I feel weird about it.

897
00:45:40,474 --> 00:45:42,114
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's what I'm trying to get to. So

898
00:45:42,154 --> 00:45:43,913
Speaker 1: there's a time limit you.

899
00:45:43,874 --> 00:45:48,994
Speaker 3: Age out of calling someone your boyfriend. I don't, but

900
00:45:49,074 --> 00:45:51,394
Speaker 3: at the same time, like you wouldn't start dating someone

901
00:45:51,514 --> 00:45:53,194
Speaker 3: and then like three months in and be like, this

902
00:45:53,234 --> 00:45:53,994
Speaker 3: is my partner.

903
00:45:54,434 --> 00:45:54,474
Speaker 2: No.

904
00:45:54,714 --> 00:45:56,674
Speaker 1: Well, and the thing is is, of course we should

905
00:45:56,954 --> 00:46:00,154
Speaker 1: note that partner is very you know, just ubiquitous now,

906
00:46:00,194 --> 00:46:02,434
Speaker 1: but it was very much popularized when people wanted to

907
00:46:02,474 --> 00:46:05,513
Speaker 1: be gender neutral about their partners, and still is. It's

908
00:46:05,554 --> 00:46:08,154
Speaker 1: funny because to me, and I know I'm weird, I

909
00:46:08,194 --> 00:46:10,834
Speaker 1: hate the word husband right, So, although raised doing a

910
00:46:10,834 --> 00:46:12,913
Speaker 1: good job of rebranding that with where the hell is

911
00:46:12,914 --> 00:46:13,914
Speaker 1: My Husband's.

912
00:46:13,474 --> 00:46:17,393
Speaker 2: Song, I also hate the word husband and bye. I

913
00:46:17,434 --> 00:46:19,794
Speaker 2: think it makes me sound like I'm in a nineteen

914
00:46:19,834 --> 00:46:22,674
Speaker 2: fifties marriage. Like I think if I say, oh, I'm

915
00:46:22,714 --> 00:46:25,033
Speaker 2: just going to dinner with my husband, I think it's

916
00:46:25,074 --> 00:46:28,074
Speaker 2: so loaded with connotations I'm not comfortable with. If Luca

917
00:46:28,154 --> 00:46:32,473
Speaker 2: called me his wife, my wife, I'm my affe, yuck.

918
00:46:33,034 --> 00:46:35,553
Speaker 1: I just be like, he does call you his wife.

919
00:46:37,234 --> 00:46:41,234
Speaker 3: I literally started the day after your wedding, he started

920
00:46:41,234 --> 00:46:41,634
Speaker 3: calling you.

921
00:46:42,434 --> 00:46:45,674
Speaker 1: But I think so, I think that obviously there's like

922
00:46:45,714 --> 00:46:48,994
Speaker 1: personal preference in this, and I think that husband is

923
00:46:49,114 --> 00:46:51,913
Speaker 1: like I get that in the ray context of where

924
00:46:51,914 --> 00:46:53,953
Speaker 1: the hell is my husband? It's funny because it's kind

925
00:46:53,954 --> 00:46:56,834
Speaker 1: of like the person I stop for, like the person

926
00:46:56,834 --> 00:46:59,594
Speaker 1: all this stops for me. Yeah, But personally I love boyfriend.

927
00:46:59,634 --> 00:47:01,954
Speaker 1: And what I like about calling my elderly boyfriend my

928
00:47:01,954 --> 00:47:04,754
Speaker 1: elderly boyfriend is that we've been together for twenty years,

929
00:47:04,834 --> 00:47:08,074
Speaker 1: but we're not married, and of course here's my partner.

930
00:47:08,554 --> 00:47:12,034
Speaker 1: But boyfriend just sounds more fun. Partner sounds like work. Partner,

931
00:47:12,074 --> 00:47:14,394
Speaker 1: sounds like we've got a small business together.

932
00:47:14,474 --> 00:47:15,953
Speaker 2: It sounds like a law fan.

933
00:47:16,194 --> 00:47:18,674
Speaker 1: I know we're not waiting, right McKeen lawyers, Like, that's

934
00:47:18,714 --> 00:47:19,354
Speaker 1: not what we are.

935
00:47:19,394 --> 00:47:22,834
Speaker 3: But boyfriends boyfriend sounds like you have to ask your parents'

936
00:47:22,834 --> 00:47:24,114
Speaker 3: permission to be living with him.

937
00:47:24,394 --> 00:47:25,594
Speaker 2: Yeah.

938
00:47:25,954 --> 00:47:26,234
Speaker 1: Yeah.

939
00:47:27,194 --> 00:47:29,354
Speaker 2: There was something in the Washington Post I thought put

940
00:47:29,354 --> 00:47:32,314
Speaker 2: it really well, which was the clearest explanation for the

941
00:47:32,354 --> 00:47:36,474
Speaker 2: words spike in popularity. This was about partner is the

942
00:47:36,594 --> 00:47:39,714
Speaker 2: lack of any other good options. Unmarried people in serious

943
00:47:39,754 --> 00:47:44,954
Speaker 2: relationships face a gaping linguistic whole. So boyfriend and girlfriend

944
00:47:45,274 --> 00:47:48,354
Speaker 2: to high school significant other sounds as though it belongs

945
00:47:48,354 --> 00:47:52,034
Speaker 2: on a legal document. Lover to bring in lover. It

946
00:47:52,074 --> 00:47:53,593
Speaker 2: makes everyone think you just have a lot of sex.

947
00:47:53,714 --> 00:47:56,754
Speaker 1: Remember Taylor Swift popularized lover for a while there with Joe.

948
00:47:56,954 --> 00:48:00,434
Speaker 2: It sounds very transient, like it's going to stop. Sounds

949
00:48:00,474 --> 00:48:05,714
Speaker 2: hot companion, that makes you sound like that's something I

950
00:48:05,754 --> 00:48:08,873
Speaker 2: would talk about, like a grandparent who met someone in

951
00:48:08,914 --> 00:48:10,034
Speaker 2: the aged care facility.

952
00:48:10,154 --> 00:48:12,473
Speaker 1: Yeah, or like also someone that you paid to go

953
00:48:12,514 --> 00:48:15,514
Speaker 1: on your travels with you, someone to go to dinner with.

954
00:48:15,634 --> 00:48:18,674
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly exactly, but if referred to.

955
00:48:18,834 --> 00:48:26,154
Speaker 1: As like their missus. All right, So what we possibly

956
00:48:26,274 --> 00:48:31,554
Speaker 1: need is a word somewhere in between boyfriend, girlfriend and partner,

957
00:48:31,914 --> 00:48:36,874
Speaker 1: like something so serious commitment. But what about like my dude,

958
00:48:37,994 --> 00:48:39,194
Speaker 1: my man, my woman.

959
00:48:40,034 --> 00:48:41,433
Speaker 2: Oh it's funny, right because when I.

960
00:48:41,394 --> 00:48:43,834
Speaker 1: Say is obviously a stepping stone there.

961
00:48:44,354 --> 00:48:45,794
Speaker 2: If I was to say to you, I'm going to

962
00:48:45,834 --> 00:48:49,393
Speaker 2: go have lunch with a friend, it's like gender neutral.

963
00:48:49,674 --> 00:48:53,074
Speaker 2: It doesn't tell you anything like it says what it is.

964
00:48:53,074 --> 00:48:55,434
Speaker 2: It's like we need that, We just need something that's

965
00:48:55,514 --> 00:48:58,873
Speaker 2: just basic and doesn't because I understand people in a

966
00:48:58,914 --> 00:49:00,474
Speaker 2: workplace as well not wanting to say they have a

967
00:49:00,474 --> 00:49:03,114
Speaker 2: girlfriend or a boyfriend or like the LGBT movement I

968
00:49:03,114 --> 00:49:05,274
Speaker 2: think has obviously changed all of that. If I have

969
00:49:05,354 --> 00:49:08,994
Speaker 2: a partner, maybe I'm polly amorous. You don't know, Like

970
00:49:09,074 --> 00:49:11,554
Speaker 2: I could have other people that aren't that, girlfriends and boyfriends,

971
00:49:11,554 --> 00:49:12,514
Speaker 2: but this is my partner.

972
00:49:13,074 --> 00:49:16,794
Speaker 3: Like what if we say my current partner, yes exactly.

973
00:49:16,914 --> 00:49:17,794
Speaker 1: Oh. I like that.

974
00:49:17,794 --> 00:49:18,794
Speaker 2: That's passive aggressive.

975
00:49:19,194 --> 00:49:21,194
Speaker 1: If you want to keep them on their toes, that's

976
00:49:21,194 --> 00:49:26,314
Speaker 1: the way to always do it. And also my current husband,

977
00:49:26,634 --> 00:49:29,834
Speaker 1: I like that. Out louders, thank you so much for

978
00:49:29,874 --> 00:49:32,393
Speaker 1: being here with us on this first Wednesday back of

979
00:49:32,434 --> 00:49:34,674
Speaker 1: the year. Means a lot. We will be back in

980
00:49:34,714 --> 00:49:37,594
Speaker 1: yours tomorrow. Thank you to our amazing team putting the

981
00:49:37,594 --> 00:49:38,873
Speaker 1: show together as they always do.

982
00:49:39,434 --> 00:49:46,874
Speaker 2: Bye bye, Mamma.

983
00:49:46,914 --> 00:49:49,794
Speaker 3: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

984
00:49:49,794 --> 00:49:51,234
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.