Speaker 1: She said, you're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: The way that I see it is we have like
Speaker 3: our swinging relationship and then we can open that up
Speaker 3: and have like our primary partner.
Speaker 2: So Lawrence was my primary partner, and.
Speaker 3: I was exploring my sexuality with both women and men.
Speaker 3: I had a girlfriend and I had a couple boyfriends
Speaker 3: at the time too.
Speaker 4: Hello, I'm Katelinebrook on today's No Filter. I'm talking to
Speaker 4: Jess Katelly. Today's conversation is about a world most of
Speaker 4: us have only ever heard whispers about. It's the world
Speaker 4: of swingers clubs. When she was just twenty, Jess Kittlly
Speaker 4: went on a third date that would change her life.
Speaker 4: Her date, a man named Lawrence, suggested that they open
Speaker 4: a swingers club together.
Speaker 1: And she said yes.
Speaker 4: A decade later, that club, Our Secret Spot, has become
Speaker 4: one of Australia's best known spaces for people exploring sex,
Speaker 4: desire and connection in unconventional ways. Jess now runs it
Speaker 4: with her husband Jamie, and together they've built a business
Speaker 4: that challenges notions of shame that celebrates consent and invites
Speaker 4: adults to be radically honest about what they want. This
Speaker 4: is the story of how a twenty year old retail
Speaker 4: manager became the co founder of a thriving sex positive
Speaker 4: community and what it's really like behind the closed doors
Speaker 4: of a swingers club. This is Jess Ktlly, Jess Katelly,
Speaker 4: Welcome to No Filter. Thank you, an appropriately named show.
Speaker 4: I think given the subject matter and what we're going
Speaker 4: to talk about today, which is of course you and
Speaker 4: I'm struck by what are remarkable person you must have
Speaker 4: been and still are. See if I've got this right,
Speaker 4: So you're twenty years old. This is ten years ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a little bit over ten.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, but you're on your third date with
Speaker 4: a guy called Lawrence yep, and he says to you,
Speaker 4: let's start a swingers club.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4: So I'm I think a lot of people would be
Speaker 4: like if we had that expression ten years ago, they
Speaker 4: would have been like, red flag, red flag it. But
Speaker 4: you saw and heard opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I clearly didn't understand what something crazy was because I,
Speaker 3: like you said, I saw an opportunity, but I also
Speaker 3: saw an area of growth that I wanted to learn about,
Speaker 3: and I didn't actually have a full understanding on what swinging.
Speaker 2: All the lifestyle was yet.
Speaker 3: So being presented with an opportunity to both grow mentally
Speaker 3: and also experience some fun physical things, I was very
Speaker 3: much on board. I was a very proactive twenty year old,
Speaker 3: as it sings, and very into a new adventures. So
Speaker 3: back in the day, my mentality, which is still my mentality,
Speaker 3: is grab every adventure that you can and continue with it.
Speaker 3: So it was a very big adventure and it's thankfully
Speaker 3: being one of the best adventures that I've gone on.
Speaker 4: Tell me a little bit about your family background, because
Speaker 4: I think the belief would be that you must have
Speaker 4: come from a very unconventional background to be this open
Speaker 4: sexually open.
Speaker 3: So I came from a very normal and very basic
Speaker 3: style family. So we went religious, but we did everything
Speaker 3: every normal family does. You know, have Sunday dinner together,
Speaker 3: I did after school activities. I was an exceptional in school,
Speaker 3: but I did school. We all had friends.
Speaker 2: There was nothing.
Speaker 3: Really sexually proactive or physically or mentally proactive that I
Speaker 3: did as a family. I actually didn't end up telling
Speaker 3: my family that I opened a swingers club until two
Speaker 3: years into running now, so I kind of.
Speaker 2: Kept that a little bit of a secret.
Speaker 3: When we started being twenty, I think I was already
Speaker 3: a bit of a black sheep, just being so outgoing
Speaker 3: and so over the top and continuing to do all
Speaker 3: these big adventure stuff that I didn't really want to.
Speaker 3: I guess worry my family that I was in something
Speaker 3: that might have been a bit too deep or a
Speaker 3: bit too full on until I felt like it had
Speaker 3: some established legs and it was there to continue growing,
Speaker 3: but yeah, to use into opening the club. That's when
Speaker 3: I sat down with my family and discussed it. So
Speaker 3: nothing really stuck out from my childhood or from my
Speaker 3: family life that made me pursue opening the club.
Speaker 4: What work were you doing when you met Lawrence and
Speaker 4: how did you meet him?
Speaker 3: Lawrence and I met when we both were working at
Speaker 3: David Jones. I was a retail operations manager for Mimco,
Speaker 3: so he was a security guard at David Jones. Came
Speaker 3: past one day to roupt a really cute little rose
Speaker 3: on the desk and wrote a note asking to go
Speaker 3: out on a date. I thought that was really sweet
Speaker 3: and really cute, and then the next week we went on.
Speaker 4: A date, and so that was the first of the
Speaker 4: three dates, and then on the third I can't even
Speaker 4: imagine how this comes up in conversation.
Speaker 1: Paint the picture for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Lawrence is very good at I guess, portraying
Speaker 3: a very confident and calming way of discussing things. He
Speaker 3: on the first date told me that he was a swinger,
Speaker 3: told me about the lifestyle that he'd been living with
Speaker 3: his ex and how he wanted to continue pursuing that.
Speaker 3: Being twenty, I thought, this is great. I get to
Speaker 3: have sex with multiple people. I can't wait. On the
Speaker 3: cusp of the beginning part, so and got the brief
Speaker 3: talk about swinging. I got all the consent talk, but
Speaker 3: then I didn't get a lot of They're like how
Speaker 3: much it can evolve into your life and whatnot. I
Speaker 3: guess it's a first date, so it was just a
Speaker 3: brief touching on everything. On our second date, it actually
Speaker 3: happened to be his birthday, so we went out for
Speaker 3: a drink and a dinner. And then on the third date,
Speaker 3: he took me tike heir and said, hey, like, let's
Speaker 3: plan out owning a swingers club together, pick out furniture,
Speaker 3: and let's discuss.
Speaker 2: What the layout will look like.
Speaker 3: So we really fast tracked our relationship both mentally and physically,
Speaker 3: because within three months after that, we were signing on
Speaker 3: the contracts to take over the first club and start
Speaker 3: putting all the furniture in.
Speaker 2: So we went really quickly.
Speaker 4: So at this time, so you're in a committed relationship
Speaker 4: with Lawrence, obviously you're like, this guy's great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the lights are green.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but your family must have been like, what kind
Speaker 4: of business are you setting out?
Speaker 3: What's happening Somewhat, So I continue to keep my full
Speaker 3: time job still at Mimco as a retail operations manager,
Speaker 3: so I was doing the forty to fifty hours of
Speaker 3: that a week on top of trying to set up
Speaker 3: the new club at the same time. So I would
Speaker 3: go down in my full outfit in my worksuit and
Speaker 3: my white blood and up blouse and go and paint
Speaker 3: walls during my lunch break and then walk back to work.
Speaker 3: So my families only knew about the Mimco side of things,
Speaker 3: and they didn't know about me owning the club until
Speaker 3: the two years in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, So you have at this point like never
Speaker 4: even set foot in a swingers club.
Speaker 1: Or a swingers party.
Speaker 2: Not at all, So my first time in a club
Speaker 2: was my own.
Speaker 3: My first swingers party, I guess was more like a
Speaker 3: dress up party rather than a swingers party. There was
Speaker 3: a lot of swingers there, so I got to have
Speaker 3: conversations with them and talk to them about just the
Speaker 3: life and their lifestyle and how they live it. Because
Speaker 3: all the knowledge that I have from swinging came from Lawrence.
Speaker 3: So I'd done a bit of research before we opened
Speaker 3: the club into what people were looking for in a
Speaker 3: swingers club, and a lot of my online searches was
Speaker 3: female friendly, sexy, non sleezy, and I felt as a
Speaker 3: twenty year old I was able to portray that, and
Speaker 3: Lawrence didn't come across sleezy either. He doesn't have any
Speaker 3: of that sleezy creepy vibes. So I think we worked
Speaker 3: really well as a team to open that together. So
Speaker 3: it wasn't not going to a club before or not
Speaker 3: going to a swing's party. I didn't feel like hindered,
Speaker 3: but I think it also gave me a newer perspective
Speaker 3: to be able to open a club that no one
Speaker 3: else had seen or done, because I didn't base it
Speaker 3: off anything else.
Speaker 2: That i'd seen before.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because your focus was very like you said, you
Speaker 4: wanted it to be female friendly and you wanted it
Speaker 4: to be a place where women would feel free to
Speaker 4: go and be seen and participate. Yeah, how did you
Speaker 4: know what that meant? Were you just guided by what you.
Speaker 1: Would have liked?
Speaker 3: I think a lot of it was guided by what
Speaker 3: I'd like and what I would feel comfortable in that environment.
Speaker 3: Being twenty as well, I was going out to nightclubs
Speaker 3: with friends and I hated them. I'd always felt people
Speaker 3: were looking or they it was slimy, I'd feel people's
Speaker 3: energies were a bit off.
Speaker 2: It was always very predatory.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to make sure that if we opened
Speaker 3: a venue where sex was a possibility, I wanted to
Speaker 3: make it feel so safe that anyone could come in
Speaker 3: and not feel obliged to have to participate. So ensuring
Speaker 3: that there was areas where people could have time to chill,
Speaker 3: times to have conversations, safe areas where it was in
Speaker 3: the open, so if you sat down on a couch
Speaker 3: there was a lot of space around you so people
Speaker 3: could see. And also just creating things like staff members
Speaker 3: who were there to look after you rather than staff
Speaker 3: members who just kept feeding you drinks all night.
Speaker 2: So just a little things that I know at a bar.
Speaker 3: Buttonders are great, but they can't help you in every
Speaker 3: situation where I wanted to ensure that we had all
Speaker 3: of these options around for women and for men just
Speaker 3: to feel safe in a space.
Speaker 4: So when you talk about staff members when you started,
Speaker 4: so when you first opened it was called our secret
Speaker 4: spot then yeah, yeah, and then how did.
Speaker 1: You open it?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: What was the nature for someone like me who's never
Speaker 4: set foot in a swingers club, Although I've been in
Speaker 4: clubs where they've got these dungeons and stuff, you know,
Speaker 4: where they've got a bit of BBSM staff, But who
Speaker 4: were the staff and what did it look like?
Speaker 2: So our opening night was complete and not a chaos.
Speaker 3: We also unforeseen to us looking at the dates, I
Speaker 3: think we were so just excited to open the club.
Speaker 2: We opened on Mardi Gras.
Speaker 3: So not only did we have the absolute chaos of
Speaker 3: being in Darlinghurst and having Mardi Gras around, we also
Speaker 3: had ninety people trying to come and see this new
Speaker 3: swingers club that had just opened up all at once,
Speaker 3: so it was people everywhere. We were nailing things to
Speaker 3: the world just before it opened. The staff at the
Speaker 3: time we'd hired a few people, but a lot of
Speaker 3: them were friends of Lawrence or friends of the lifestyle
Speaker 3: that we kind of built over that three months, who
Speaker 3: were confident and comfortable within a very I guess very
Speaker 3: field environment full of sexually active people.
Speaker 2: So I guess also having them as friends as.
Speaker 3: Well helped us to kind of work out the tweaks
Speaker 3: and get honest feedback on what we could improve on.
Speaker 2: However, I find swingers being so honest.
Speaker 3: They were very and more than happy to give us
Speaker 3: honest feedback then and there, so anything that we did need.
Speaker 2: To improve from the club was improved on pretty quickly.
Speaker 4: But I think any business using friends and hiring friends
Speaker 4: is great. But hiring friends can also be a problem, Yes,
Speaker 4: when you have to address something with.
Speaker 1: Them, yes, Ken.
Speaker 3: Thankfully, a lot of this was temporary, so our friends
Speaker 3: were in just until we could find our feet and
Speaker 3: find the right staffing. A lot of the friends that
Speaker 3: we did hire would only do one or two nights
Speaker 3: a month. At the time, we were only opening on
Speaker 3: a Friday and a Saturday, and for the first couple
Speaker 3: of years we weren't getting an excessive amount of people,
Speaker 3: so it was filling up. We were still working out
Speaker 3: what type of events to host to get it to
Speaker 3: fill up. So a lot of the nights for the
Speaker 3: first couple of years it was mainly Lawrence and myself
Speaker 3: working from open to clothes and then having one other
Speaker 3: staff member who we'd hired, or another staff member that
Speaker 3: we eventually hired as a manager.
Speaker 4: So you said that your first time going to like
Speaker 4: swinging was in your own club. Did that happen at
Speaker 4: the opening or did it happen down the track?
Speaker 1: When was your first time?
Speaker 3: So my first time as a patron was at the
Speaker 3: club and it was an event. We called it Jessica's Men,
Speaker 3: So it was an event where we had topless waiters
Speaker 3: and it was female centric for the beginning part because
Speaker 3: me identifying as a bisexual woman, I really do like
Speaker 3: the energy of women, so I wanted to have the
Speaker 3: beginning night where it was just women and adjust their
Speaker 3: energy and then partners or men could come in afterwards.
Speaker 2: So the first two hours as women, then the men
Speaker 2: came in.
Speaker 3: That was my first time participating and being a patron
Speaker 3: to see it from that side of things. It was
Speaker 3: very interesting because there was definitely little stuff that as
Speaker 3: a patron, I didn't realize how many things go in
Speaker 3: and play into your mind of feeling comfortable and having
Speaker 3: to have these conversations and making sure that you know
Speaker 3: you asked before you sat down, or making sure the
Speaker 3: person next to you was comfortable and they're not in
Speaker 3: the middle of another discussion, whereas when you're working, you're
Speaker 3: just trying to make sure you're like, not seen and
Speaker 3: trying to clean up around people.
Speaker 2: So it was very different.
Speaker 3: It did help me understand a lot about where things
Speaker 3: were positioned in the club and how nerve racking it
Speaker 3: can be. I take my hat off and still to
Speaker 3: this day to anyone that comes into this sort of environment,
Speaker 3: it is daunting.
Speaker 2: It's hard, it's scary.
Speaker 3: Bit I think that nervous energy really helps you enjoy
Speaker 3: your night even more when you are able to break
Speaker 3: down that barrier of nerve and come through the doors
Speaker 3: to experience it.
Speaker 1: Well, what happens.
Speaker 4: Do most people come through on their own or do
Speaker 4: they come through as part of a couple.
Speaker 3: So currently we sit about ninety percent couples and ten
Speaker 3: percent singles. We normally get about five single men per event.
Speaker 2: This has been curated by us, just because we feel.
Speaker 3: That energy of more men within the venue does shift
Speaker 3: how it goes. We also predominantly promote a lot of
Speaker 3: our events four couples, but a lot of couples do
Speaker 3: come with other couples or other singles, so we find
Speaker 3: that's kind of why we've shifted towards a lot of couples,
Speaker 3: But we do have designated events for just singles to.
Speaker 4: Mingle right, and it tends to be in all matter
Speaker 4: as sexual. Really you build it and they will come
Speaker 4: in every way, but the men really come, yes, So
Speaker 4: you don't want the women to be overwhelmed by the
Speaker 4: mean correct.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Men definitely have a lot more of a
Speaker 3: dominant energy. So being able to control the limit of
Speaker 3: how many men we have per event really helps relieve
Speaker 3: a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety for
Speaker 3: couples and singles. Where every single male that does come
Speaker 3: into our event is vetted, so we ask them just
Speaker 3: basic questions like have you been before, what are you
Speaker 3: bringing to the table, what does consent means, So just
Speaker 3: the basics that we really need them to understand. And
Speaker 3: a lot of the men that do come have either
Speaker 3: been a couple before they've come to other events, and
Speaker 3: they're very very calm and very good at adding rather
Speaker 3: than creating chaos.
Speaker 4: Because of course you talked about consent earlier, how do
Speaker 4: you brief people about that? Is there a when people
Speaker 4: first come. I know that you get a tour. I've
Speaker 4: heard your podcast that you do with Lawrence, and people
Speaker 4: are given a tour, and then how do you have
Speaker 4: that consent conversation with them?
Speaker 3: The way that we ensure that consent is delivered to
Speaker 3: everyone that turns up is that we always rely on
Speaker 3: telling people that consent is necessary.
Speaker 2: In all aspects of the club.
Speaker 3: So whether it's going up to have a conversation with somebody,
Speaker 3: we always say consent is sexy. So we try to
Speaker 3: use that as a way for people to have a
Speaker 3: first time conversation. On newbie nights as well, Laurence myself
Speaker 3: will always get up and do a talk to give
Speaker 3: people some one liners, some ins and outs of the club,
Speaker 3: and just basics on what consent means and what it
Speaker 3: can do for your relationship or for that scenario that's happening.
Speaker 3: I think also with the lifestyle, we get a lot
Speaker 3: of well educated people who before they even turn up
Speaker 3: a lot of people do research, so we're very fortunate
Speaker 3: in that aspect where people like to do their own
Speaker 3: digging into the lifestyle and what is necessary to ensure
Speaker 3: that they have a really good experience. And so if
Speaker 3: they come to the club with questions and normally questions
Speaker 3: around what's your best way of asking for consent rather
Speaker 3: than what is consent?
Speaker 4: So you talked about newbie nights, So say I'm a
Speaker 4: newbie and I'm coming, what one liner are you going
Speaker 4: to give me?
Speaker 3: My one liner is come looking for an experience, not
Speaker 3: an expectation. So come in looking to experience a new conversation,
Speaker 3: a new friendship, a new moment, and ensure that all
Speaker 3: conversations that you have, no matter whether it be small
Speaker 3: or big, starts with asking if everyone's okay with something
Speaker 3: that you're doing, or if you are people would like
Speaker 3: to have a conversation with you. And I think when
Speaker 3: you lead or you start without, people just automatically go
Speaker 3: into asking for consent for even the littlest thing like
Speaker 3: touching someone's shoulder.
Speaker 4: So it's a personal for some I guess it's a
Speaker 4: personal connection as well, and for others it's just a
Speaker 4: purely sexual thing. They're like arouse and they're like, I
Speaker 4: want to be a part of whatever's going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very lucky lifestyle where me personally, like
Speaker 3: I've gained wonderful friendships from this, where some of my
Speaker 3: best friends have been because of this lifestyle. But then
Speaker 3: I've also gained friends where we have a solely sexual
Speaker 3: relationship where I will come in or they'll come into
Speaker 3: the relationship with me my hubby and we just have
Speaker 3: sex with them, or we you know, we will go
Speaker 3: out for a drink, we'll have a really like light
Speaker 3: fun conversation and then we end up having sex.
Speaker 2: And then there's friends who were in the.
Speaker 3: Lifestyle together and we've never had sex together, but I
Speaker 3: have some of the most deep and meaningful conversations with them,
Speaker 3: and they've helped me through situations that I just I
Speaker 3: need that sounding board. So I think because a lifestyle
Speaker 3: is so broad in how you can perceive it, you're
Speaker 3: able to build different types of friendships and relationships and
Speaker 3: it isn't always just about sex.
Speaker 4: So you and Lawrence were building so it's twofold really
Speaker 4: because you were building this business together and you've obviously
Speaker 4: found something that's resonating in the market, a market that
Speaker 4: really probably you didn't even know was going to be
Speaker 4: as big as it was, or that people would be
Speaker 4: as open to it as they've proven to be. But
Speaker 4: you're also running your relationship with him, yes, and you're
Speaker 4: swinging yes. Uh.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I don't like to do things in
Speaker 3: halves or slowly as it appears. I'm very good at
Speaker 3: throwing myself into the deep end, and I think that
Speaker 3: actually helped me learn quicker and also be a bit
Speaker 3: more confident in the way that I had these conversations
Speaker 3: to learn about what I wanted from a relationship, what
Speaker 3: I wanted from the club, and what I wanted for myself.
Speaker 2: Lawrence and I are.
Speaker 3: Still to this day were good friends, I seem like
Speaker 3: three times a week because we worked together so often.
Speaker 3: I think because of that, building our relationship together at
Speaker 3: the beginning and building the club together, we had really good,
Speaker 3: in depth and open conversations that it allowed us to
Speaker 3: continue to grow both as a relationship and as a business.
Speaker 4: After the break, Jess shares what her first experience of
Speaker 4: swinging was like because he was experienced in this lifestyle
Speaker 4: but you weren't.
Speaker 1: But you do seem like you took to it like
Speaker 1: a duck to water.
Speaker 4: But did you have any issues initially because of what
Speaker 4: I considered to be a natural tendency to be territorial
Speaker 4: about the person that you are attracted to. Ye, did
Speaker 4: you have any issues like that when you started a
Speaker 4: the first time that you saw him with someone else,
Speaker 4: saw vice versa.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I even to this day, I think jealousy is
Speaker 3: very prevalent in any sort of relationship you have.
Speaker 2: We can all experience it.
Speaker 3: I definitely experience it a lot at the beginning, but
Speaker 3: thankfully I was able to communicate quite well because Lawrence
Speaker 3: had always said, talk about things whether they're going to
Speaker 3: be sticky, icky, or heart So there was definitely moments
Speaker 3: where I didn't feel comfortable or I had these like
Speaker 3: X and I was a bit a bit thrown by things.
Speaker 3: And then I'd feel like I was taking two steps
Speaker 3: back because like, I've seen stuff.
Speaker 4: In what sort of situation do you recall first experiencing it.
Speaker 3: My first ick was when Lawrence and I we were
Speaker 3: playing and I'd said, yep, that's okay, you can go
Speaker 3: and play by yourself, because I thought I was ready.
Speaker 2: It was a little bit too fresh for me at
Speaker 2: the beginning.
Speaker 4: When you said he can go play so, in other words,
Speaker 4: with other people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we were in a like a group situation,
Speaker 3: and generally we always tried to play together where we
Speaker 3: were in sight of each other. And Lawrence had asked
Speaker 3: if he could go and play with somebody else, and
Speaker 3: I said, yeah, look, I'm comfortable with that, go for it.
Speaker 3: And then once I guess my sex high had kind
Speaker 3: of stopped, where I'd come back down into the land
Speaker 3: of the living, I walked outside and then I'd seen
Speaker 3: him playing with another girl and I got kind of
Speaker 3: got that dick, and I was like, oh, wait, I'd
Speaker 3: said yes to this. Maybe I wasn't ready for this
Speaker 3: step yet. So once he had finished, we'd had a
Speaker 3: conversation about it. He was not upset. We like neither
Speaker 3: of us were upset. He could sense that I had
Speaker 3: had this kind of this worry on my face.
Speaker 2: I think this was maybe two years.
Speaker 3: Into our relationship too, so it wasn't it wasn't early on,
Speaker 3: but it was enough that I wasn't ready to have
Speaker 3: that open play yet. So we just worked through that
Speaker 3: as a conversation. We didn't involve anyone other than ourselves
Speaker 3: to have this conversation. It wasn't necessary to bring other
Speaker 3: people into that. And I think because it happened and
Speaker 3: it was so fresh at the time, we were able
Speaker 3: to talk about it, get through it, and we worked
Speaker 3: out that we will just pull back again and we
Speaker 3: wouldn't do open play until I felt I was ready.
Speaker 2: So I'd always kept feeling.
Speaker 3: Like I had pulled us back, but I think it
Speaker 3: was one of the best things to be able to like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm not ready for this, so let's just jump back
Speaker 3: for a bit, and it's not stopping everything. And I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people sometimes forget that where just
Speaker 3: because something icky happens doesn't mean the whole entire thing stops.
Speaker 3: You're right, you just step backwards, you just go back
Speaker 3: to where you were.
Speaker 4: Well, that's interesting. That's interesting because I think a lot
Speaker 4: of people would go, oh, look, we tried this, or
Speaker 4: you know a lot of people have been to the
Speaker 4: strips with their partner, a lot of women, and even
Speaker 4: that's been proven to be really confronting and brought up
Speaker 4: feelings that they, you know, deeply uncomfortable with. Ye, and
Speaker 4: then they retreat from that world. Ye, So they go
Speaker 4: we tried that that didn't work.
Speaker 1: That's not for me.
Speaker 4: But there was something in you that even though you
Speaker 4: you had those feelings, yeah, you went, but I'm going
Speaker 4: to persist. I'm going to talk to Lawrence about this
Speaker 4: and we're going to sort that out.
Speaker 1: What was that drive?
Speaker 3: I think it really helped having the club as well,
Speaker 3: so we were advocates.
Speaker 2: At the time as well.
Speaker 3: I think that kind of pushed me to ensure that
Speaker 3: I was bettering myself rather than giving up. I'm also
Speaker 3: a very, very understanding because I don't think everyone's perfect.
Speaker 2: I know for a fact, I always continue to try
Speaker 2: and improve.
Speaker 3: On things because I don't think I'm perfect, and I
Speaker 3: think that mentality is stuck being like I would really
Speaker 3: like to work on this because I think this has
Speaker 3: made me a better person. I've just got an ick,
Speaker 3: but I'd like to fix it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: That's interesting. In what way has swinging made you a
Speaker 4: better person?
Speaker 3: I think it's allowed me to be more confident in
Speaker 3: myself and understand that I have like little ups and downs,
Speaker 3: I have little imperfections, and my imperfections have helped me
Speaker 3: become a better person. Or I've been able to find
Speaker 3: ways to work with my imperfections. It's also allowed me
Speaker 3: to be a better communicated both to my family as
Speaker 3: well as to my friends. I've had conversations with friends
Speaker 3: who aren't in the lifestyle, who I've known from high school,
Speaker 3: and I do feel like I get really.
Speaker 2: Top line conversations and then nothing.
Speaker 3: There's no depth, there's no meaning to it, and it's
Speaker 3: a lot of there's nothing to it, there's no grit,
Speaker 3: and I just I'm really fortunate that I can now
Speaker 3: have conversations with anyone wherever we go, and I'm able
Speaker 3: to get meaning and purpose from some of the conversations
Speaker 3: that I'm having.
Speaker 4: Well, it's such an essential part of a person's makeup,
Speaker 4: their sexuality or any sort of sensuality. But it feels
Speaker 4: like the two year mark was very important. Was significant
Speaker 4: because it was two years in that you had that
Speaker 4: those feelings when you felt excluded from Lauren enjoying his play.
Speaker 4: And it was at two years you said that you
Speaker 4: told your family about the club. Yeah, So was that
Speaker 4: the point at which you were like, this is the
Speaker 4: lifestyle for me, this is going to be my business,
Speaker 4: this is the place, this is who I am.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was where I kind of cemented
Speaker 3: the fact that this has given me more opportunities and
Speaker 3: more confidence in my life than anything else. And I
Speaker 3: was building friendships that I still have to this day
Speaker 3: during that time, and I think because of that, I
Speaker 3: was getting that boost and confidence from them.
Speaker 2: To really strive to be in this lifestyle.
Speaker 3: And I think I also learned with this lifestyle that
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean I have to be open I have
Speaker 3: to have sex with everyone. I can have that friendship
Speaker 3: in this lifestyle. I can have just a sexual relationship
Speaker 3: in this lifestyle. I can also build my connection with Lawrence.
Speaker 3: There was so many different elements in this lifestyle that
Speaker 3: I'd learned, and I was starting to touch on each
Speaker 3: of one of those, which I think then allowed me
Speaker 3: to have that conversation with my family, with my mom
Speaker 3: and my dad about the fact that I'm now an
Speaker 3: owner of a swingers club.
Speaker 2: I still have my day job, but I also have
Speaker 2: my night job.
Speaker 4: Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, Jess, back up,
Speaker 4: back up, because I mean, everything seems clear in retrospect.
Speaker 4: But the night that you were going to have that comment,
Speaker 4: was it at a family dinner?
Speaker 1: How did you? How did it play out?
Speaker 3: So my mom and my dad were divorced at this
Speaker 3: stage and they didn't spend a lot of time together,
Speaker 3: so it actually was at my dad's house. My mom
Speaker 3: came over to my dad's house and sat me down
Speaker 3: and we were sitting across like a dining table.
Speaker 2: So it was just during the middle of the day.
Speaker 4: Had you called the family, did you say I've got
Speaker 4: something to tell you.
Speaker 3: Or yeah, so'm I was already going to meet up
Speaker 3: with my mom for the day to have just a
Speaker 3: light lunch, and I just kind of got this like
Speaker 3: this stomach feeling where I I just wanted to tell her,
Speaker 3: and then I was like, wait, I would not want
Speaker 3: to leave my dad out of this.
Speaker 2: So I asked you if we could have a conversation together.
Speaker 3: I said, it's nothing too serious, but it's something i'd
Speaker 3: really like to tell you guys. Of course, parents being parents,
Speaker 3: thought something horrific had happened to me. It was actually
Speaker 3: the conversation went really really well. I don't think there
Speaker 3: was a sigh of relief. Because both my parents didn't
Speaker 3: really understand what a swingers club was. It did take
Speaker 3: me a year to really help solidify the idea that
Speaker 3: a swingers club is about consent ethically non monogamous people.
Speaker 3: It was giving them all the terms that they could
Speaker 3: use to understand that their daughter wasn't in some sort
Speaker 3: of I guess back in the day people thought, you know,
Speaker 3: you're at a strip club.
Speaker 2: It's a bit dirt, it's a bit sea like sleazy.
Speaker 3: So being able to have that conversation being like, no,
Speaker 3: I'm safe, I'm really happy. And then they started meeting
Speaker 3: some of my friends from the life so and I
Speaker 3: think that really helped them understand that this decision, this
Speaker 3: path that I was on, wasn't a bad path at all.
Speaker 4: Lawrence obviously because you'd been together for two years at
Speaker 4: this point. Yeah, and they obviously were on board with
Speaker 4: Lawrence as a partner for you. What was their first
Speaker 4: their first reaction? Can you remember when the words came
Speaker 4: out of your mouth?
Speaker 3: My dad thought I was working out of brothel, right,
Speaker 3: and just clarifying that that was not what was happening.
Speaker 2: My mom was a bit more of the.
Speaker 3: Quiet type, so she she'd had a conversation with me,
Speaker 3: but it was more around just ensuring I was safe.
Speaker 3: My mom has always been a really good supporter and
Speaker 3: anything I do, one of my biggest advocates but she
Speaker 3: just wanted to make sure I was safe and I
Speaker 3: wasn't doing anything to harm myself. And I think just
Speaker 3: being able to like say it with a smile and
Speaker 3: I was really excited about telling them about the club,
Speaker 3: I think that helped them understand that what I was
Speaker 3: doing was something of a business but also something that
Speaker 3: I had a passion for. And my parents are both
Speaker 3: being very good supporters anytime I've decided to start or
Speaker 3: unbark on some sort of passionate adventure. So I think
Speaker 3: knowing that I was such an adventurous person and never
Speaker 3: the person that sat on my hands and did nothing,
Speaker 3: I think they were very accepting at first.
Speaker 4: And did they ever come? Have they come to see
Speaker 4: you at work? Have they come to.
Speaker 1: See so now?
Speaker 3: I probably would allow them to come to the club
Speaker 3: when I was not there, but I don't think that's
Speaker 3: in my parents. I have two younger sisters who have
Speaker 3: come and supported the club. So anytime we have a
Speaker 3: big event like the birthday or I have my birthday there,
Speaker 3: they've come and supported the club. Family members I haven't
Speaker 3: seen in the club. I don't think my family swing
Speaker 3: that way, but that's completely fine. I have definitely seen
Speaker 3: a bunch of friends. I have seen work colleagues in
Speaker 3: the club. Family, I still haven't tipped off and seen
Speaker 3: in the club, which I'm happy with that I.
Speaker 2: Don't really family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4: I'm reminded of that girl who on TikTok who had
Speaker 4: an only fans and realized that one of her subscribers
Speaker 4: was her stepdad or whatever, and it was just like, oh,
Speaker 4: there's sometimes that you don't necessarily want your family to
Speaker 4: support you both physically being there.
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with the just the moral support.
Speaker 4: And speaking of support, at this point, your relationship with
Speaker 4: Lawrence is going great guns yep, But at some point
Speaker 4: that started to was it a separation, an emotional separation,
Speaker 4: or a growing apart?
Speaker 2: So with Laurence and I, it was definitely a growing
Speaker 2: a part. So we.
Speaker 3: Probably six years into our relationship, we'd opened up the
Speaker 3: second club. Oh, we'd also opened up our relationship as well,
Speaker 3: so we were starting to date other people and we've
Speaker 3: been doing that for about two years.
Speaker 2: So oh, we'd really expanded on our relationship.
Speaker 1: Sorry, jes you need to explain this to me as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the swinging is not opening the relationship swinging
Speaker 4: itself is not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So swinging itself is where you can come and
Speaker 3: have a sexual experience or an emotional and sexual experience
Speaker 3: with your partner by yourself in that moment. Being in
Speaker 3: an open relationship means that you have a primary partner,
Speaker 3: you have somebody that you normally go back to, and
Speaker 3: then you can have multiple relationships from that. So, right,
Speaker 3: they're kind of like stages, is how I see it.
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's people out there who have it in
Speaker 3: a different perspective, but the way that I see it
Speaker 3: is we have like our swinging relationship, and then we
Speaker 3: can open that up and have like our primary partner.
Speaker 2: So Lawrence was my primary partner, and.
Speaker 3: I was exploring my sexuality with both women and men.
Speaker 3: I had a girlfriend, and I had a couple boyfriends
Speaker 3: at the time too.
Speaker 4: And this, I imagine is where requires some extra care. Yeah,
Speaker 4: because what you're talking about now is a real emotional level,
Speaker 4: yeah as well, not just physical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot. There is a lot to it.
Speaker 2: I with my current partner, we are not open.
Speaker 3: I do not have the capacity to have that emotional relationship.
Speaker 2: I know that in myself.
Speaker 3: Now I'm definitely more of a sexual relationship style.
Speaker 2: But I don't.
Speaker 3: I just don't have the emotional capacity to give somebody
Speaker 3: else other than my partner more of my time and
Speaker 3: emotional capacity.
Speaker 4: And so how did you come to that realization, because
Speaker 4: when you were with Lawrence you did have that capacity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, with Lawrence, I did.
Speaker 3: I think Lawrence and I built a relationship from the
Speaker 3: beginning about conversations and being able to have these open
Speaker 3: conversations and really wanting to explore things together.
Speaker 2: I think because.
Speaker 3: We were so explorative already opening up our relationship really
Speaker 3: did feel like the next stage for us. We were
Speaker 3: also engaged as well at this stage, so I think
Speaker 3: having been engaged to him, I really did feel like
Speaker 3: I had that primary partner, and so I'd had that
Speaker 3: comfortable ability to, yeah, to go and explore myself both
Speaker 3: sexually with women and sexually with men, So I'd built
Speaker 3: relationships from that during that time.
Speaker 2: Also, Lawrence had done the same.
Speaker 3: We actually both met our respective new partners during this stage,
Speaker 3: so I've I met my husband and Lawrence met his wife.
Speaker 2: So okay, see a nice little crossover, yeah.
Speaker 4: Right, And it happened sort of concurrently. So you were
Speaker 4: obviously both feeling the same thing at the same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Lawrence had met his current wife before I'd
Speaker 3: met my partner, So I'd met my partner maybe maybe
Speaker 3: a year after. We both met Lawrence's wife together at
Speaker 3: the same time. They'd built a relationship which was all
Speaker 3: consensual because we were building on open relationships.
Speaker 4: So you've had sex with Lawrence's wife, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: all right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and Lawrence actually met her in the club
Speaker 3: as well, just into that. So Lawrence had met her
Speaker 3: in our club with me at the same time.
Speaker 2: We both met her at the same time.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it does really intertwine quite a bit relationships
Speaker 3: in swinging and especially Lawrence and not mine.
Speaker 4: And because you must be so attuned to like you said,
Speaker 4: there's like a physical connection, there's a number of levels
Speaker 4: to it. There's a physical connection, there's an emotional connection.
Speaker 4: Many people believe that there's also a spiritual connection in sexuality.
Speaker 4: But so when you were with Lawrence and you both
Speaker 4: met who's now his wife at the same time, did
Speaker 4: you since that there was that something between them?
Speaker 3: I could definitely tell there was a stronger connection, and
Speaker 3: I don't think I saw it from the beginning that
Speaker 3: I was. Look, I was never worried about their relationship,
Speaker 3: but I think, like you said, we were both in
Speaker 3: tune of checking.
Speaker 2: Out a little bit.
Speaker 3: I think we both were building on the relationship and
Speaker 3: just kicking off boxes rather than nurturing that relationship that
Speaker 3: we were building. I mean, it's nurtured in the way
Speaker 3: that we are still really good friends. So I think
Speaker 3: that's where we were putting the nurturing into. But the
Speaker 3: sex and the love and all of that that was
Speaker 3: not getting nurtured on. So I think we were already
Speaker 3: seeking that somewhere else. So I think I did notice
Speaker 3: it with them, but don't I was never threatened by it,
Speaker 3: So I think it just kind of fell naturally, which
Speaker 3: actually worked out great because I think I was able
Speaker 3: to then allow myself to develop the friendship and then
Speaker 3: the love for my current partner from when I started
Speaker 3: dating him.
Speaker 4: So this is Jamie, who you're married to now, and
Speaker 4: you have a one year old son.
Speaker 3: I got a two year old, actually a two year old, Yeah,
Speaker 3: he just turned to And Lawrence also has a two
Speaker 3: year old with his partner.
Speaker 2: He does indeed, so we have kids a month apart.
Speaker 4: Wow, you do have something sympatico between you.
Speaker 2: We do.
Speaker 3: Indeed, it's a very interesting relationship because it's weird to
Speaker 3: say it now, but I think I say that our
Speaker 3: relationship is like a brother and sister relationship where we
Speaker 3: just know so much about each other. But at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, we both defend and support each
Speaker 3: other in every decision that we make. But I think
Speaker 3: a lot of our life decisions and our wants are
Speaker 3: quite still in the same line because we were already
Speaker 3: building that together. We've now just found other partners to
Speaker 3: build that with.
Speaker 1: You're still business partners.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, still business.
Speaker 1: So there's that consideration as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we still we pretty much see each other
Speaker 3: still three times a week. We're generally at the club
Speaker 3: working on new stuff for the business. We continue to
Speaker 3: have the same goals and hopes for the business as well,
Speaker 3: so wanting to expand the business, wanting to go into state.
Speaker 3: We have very good open conversations about this. So it's
Speaker 3: really helped build our I guess, our our life together
Speaker 3: as business partners because we're so happy in the lives
Speaker 3: that we've developed with our primary partners.
Speaker 4: Don't go anywhere. Next, Jess explains what it was like
Speaker 4: bringing her partner Jamie into the club. How did you
Speaker 4: meet Jamie?
Speaker 2: Manyone Tinder?
Speaker 3: Very very yeah, very old school manyone Tinder. I was
Speaker 3: very transparent on Tinder too. I said, I'm here to
Speaker 3: find somebody to have sex with. I wanted to have
Speaker 3: a partner that was based off sex, and I didn't
Speaker 3: want to build a boyfriend or a relationship in that aspect.
Speaker 3: So that clearly didn't work at all.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And yet he responded to that, he was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm here for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then at what point did you realize it was
Speaker 1: more than that?
Speaker 3: I think early on I definitely felt like there was
Speaker 3: more from the beginning because Jamie was also just recently divorced,
Speaker 3: and I had to be also explained to him that
Speaker 3: I was still with Lawrence. I think a lot of
Speaker 3: our conversations from the get go were very transparent and
Speaker 3: very honest. So when we both started developing feelings quite
Speaker 3: early on, I think it was like into date three
Speaker 3: or date four, we were having really long, deep and
Speaker 3: meaningful conversations about what would happen if the relationship changed,
Speaker 3: what would a polyamorous relationship look like, Because at that
Speaker 3: stage Lawrence and I was still together and we were
Speaker 3: still working on our relationship to continue through. So we
Speaker 3: were definitely trying to tick off a lot of boxes
Speaker 3: to see what we'd feel comfortable with. And I think
Speaker 3: that's where I'd kind of found the establishment that I
Speaker 3: don't think I would be comfortable in a polyamorous relationship
Speaker 3: because I wouldn't be able to give my full self
Speaker 3: one hundred percent to each person all the time, and
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to balance it well. So that's
Speaker 3: where I had to re establish some ideas in my
Speaker 3: mind of what I really wanted from a relationship. I
Speaker 3: think that's also the same with Lawrence, where he had
Speaker 3: some thoughts about what he wanted from a relationship and I.
Speaker 3: When we broke up as well, we had a really
Speaker 3: it's such an interesting way that we broke up. We
Speaker 3: broke up on his birthday party, drove home together, spent
Speaker 3: a couple of days together, and then he moved out.
Speaker 3: There was no animosity, there was no anger. There was
Speaker 3: a little bit of like you know, those down moments
Speaker 3: for the first couple months, but we had some separation time,
Speaker 3: but we were really amicable when we broke up.
Speaker 2: I think we both understood our paths weren't in.
Speaker 3: A line anymore a list as a romantic relationship, so
Speaker 3: our split was surprisingly easy.
Speaker 4: He sounds very pragmatic, Lawrence. Ye, but when he sensed
Speaker 4: the connection between you and Jamie and when you were like, oh,
Speaker 4: I don't want to be polyamorous or whatever, yep, that
Speaker 4: must have been for him a real sign that Jamie was.
Speaker 1: The course that you were going to be following.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I think quite similar to when I'd picked up
Speaker 3: there was more with his wife. I definitely think Lawrence
Speaker 3: picked up on the Jamie aspect too. We did have
Speaker 3: conversations about how I'd felt a bit more stronger towards Jamie.
Speaker 3: I was quite transparent with a lot of things, as
Speaker 3: was Lawrence. Again, I think that open communication was very
Speaker 3: strong in us, thankfully.
Speaker 2: Because of the lifestyle.
Speaker 3: So I think that really helped us not feel a
Speaker 3: shame for having these conversations with each other. And I
Speaker 3: think that also helped allowed us when we did break up,
Speaker 3: have it really solidified that we understood weren't breaking up
Speaker 3: because we didn't like each other as people.
Speaker 2: It's just we weren't the right people for each other.
Speaker 4: So when you met Jamie and I'm imagining. Maybe I'm wrong,
Speaker 4: but he had come from a more traditional sort of
Speaker 4: model of relationship. You said he was divorced. How did
Speaker 4: you introduce him to all of you?
Speaker 3: I threw him in the deep end, so I told
Speaker 3: him from the get go what I was into. I
Speaker 3: told him about the club. I was always very transparent
Speaker 3: about owning the club. Basically, it was our ninth birthday
Speaker 3: at the club, and I.
Speaker 2: Invited him to come along as a single guy.
Speaker 3: At the time, I was still with Lawrence, and he
Speaker 3: was kind of left by himself for a little bit,
Speaker 3: just to see how he'd suit in the situation, how
Speaker 3: he would be around this lifestyle. Jamie seems to swim
Speaker 3: so well. He just gets on with everyone, has conversations,
Speaker 3: is very comfortable in his own self and able to
Speaker 3: just float around and be comfortable in whatever situation. I
Speaker 3: think that really helped me, because with this lifestyle, I'm
Speaker 3: not always able to give everything I need to hum
Speaker 3: at the time, because I need to be running the business,
Speaker 3: I need to be checking on things. And knowing that
Speaker 3: he was comfortable just doing his thing and not feeling
Speaker 3: left out really helps solidify the fact that he.
Speaker 4: Was the one and what was his thing? Was he
Speaker 4: waiting for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Jamie.
Speaker 3: We always call him a pleaser. So Jamie's there to
Speaker 3: ensure that everyone has fun. He loves being able to
Speaker 3: give everyone that really nice high and that really beautiful connection.
Speaker 3: Jamie and I both identify now more as monogamish, where
Speaker 3: if the situation arises, then we're into it. There's no
Speaker 3: set label that we fall under where you know, we
Speaker 3: want to both be open. Jamie couldn't see himself either
Speaker 3: being open, which is where that conversation about the.
Speaker 2: Polygue didn't really work out.
Speaker 3: We've had sex with multiple people before, both with couples
Speaker 3: in groups with singles, so we've explored a lot of
Speaker 3: those elements as well together. He was exploring it while
Speaker 3: we were still dating at the beginning, to see what
Speaker 3: he felt suited him. At the end, we figured we
Speaker 3: felt really well matched together and we enjoyed exploring things together,
Speaker 3: but having them as spontaneous moments rather than set plans
Speaker 3: where this week we're going to go and have a
Speaker 3: couple or this week we'll go and do an audio,
Speaker 3: we'll go to a party, like it was just a
Speaker 3: spur of the moment sort of situations that worked best
Speaker 3: for us.
Speaker 4: So, jess if you think about it now, or maybe
Speaker 4: you were conscious of it at the time, inviting Jamie
Speaker 4: to the club that first time, was it kind of
Speaker 4: a taste.
Speaker 3: Definitely for me because I had already established myself in
Speaker 3: the club and in this lifestyle. It was very intentional
Speaker 3: to see how he was with the type of people
Speaker 3: that I was building my life with, and also to
Speaker 3: understand if he was comfortable being able to communicate with
Speaker 3: me if he wasn't right, and thankfully he succeeded very
Speaker 3: very well. He was very much impressive. It actually helped
Speaker 3: me find more things to love about him on that
Speaker 3: day because he was able to help me out during
Speaker 3: the venue set up and the closed down. He was
Speaker 3: also able to hold conversations while I was off doing
Speaker 3: my Jessica spiel at the.
Speaker 2: Club and he was.
Speaker 3: I think we actually ended up having sex in the
Speaker 3: back storeroom, just out of being so sexually attracted to
Speaker 3: the fact that he was a swimmer not a sinker.
Speaker 1: Hey, what did he wear?
Speaker 3: By the way, So he wears his I always call
Speaker 3: it the classic Jamie look. He wears black jeans with
Speaker 3: a black button up shirt and always a black blazer.
Speaker 3: My boy doesn't have anything colorful in his wardrobe at all.
Speaker 3: It's black, white, or gray, and he's got the salt
Speaker 3: and pepper hair, so I think it really suits his
Speaker 3: demeanor and his look.
Speaker 1: And what do you wear?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: Is it different if you're going if you're working, But
Speaker 4: then work might end up being pleasure as well.
Speaker 2: Look, I wear whatever my mood is feeling.
Speaker 3: I've learnt to be comfortable but be sexy, so I
Speaker 3: try and wear generally, like a pants suit is my
Speaker 3: go to right now, or a black dress. I'm really
Speaker 3: loving like block colored pantsuits, so I wore a green.
Speaker 2: One the other day. I've got a beautiful burgundy colored.
Speaker 3: I always wear my trusty Louis Bitton's and if it's
Speaker 3: a specialized event, you always find me in a glooms dress.
Speaker 1: A glomish very cold.
Speaker 3: It is very cold, but I overheat extremely quickly and
Speaker 3: I'm always sweating up a storm, so I find it
Speaker 3: actually the cold metal on me is amazing.
Speaker 4: The other thing I'm curious about is my husband had
Speaker 4: a couple of nightclubs, and when they're flying, they're great,
Speaker 4: but most of the money is obviously from booze. But
Speaker 4: because you because of licensing restrictions, you're a byo venue.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're not making money from booze. How do
Speaker 4: you make money? And is the business lucrative enough to
Speaker 4: sustain you now and your partners?
Speaker 3: Yeah so surprisingly, yes, it is extremely lucrative. It allows
Speaker 3: us to have a full time manager, a full time
Speaker 3: admin person and seventeen staff members.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we make a lot of our money basically
Speaker 3: through entry. We also have merchandise and we also have
Speaker 3: an online members area, so having those different elements does
Speaker 3: help keep it coming in.
Speaker 2: But we also do operate four days a week.
Speaker 1: Right, And do people join?
Speaker 4: Can people join as like a subscription so they a
Speaker 4: member of the club for a year or do they
Speaker 4: pay per event?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So people pay per event.
Speaker 3: All our tickets are found online and we post them
Speaker 3: all a month out. Most events are sold out two
Speaker 3: to three days before the event actually happens.
Speaker 2: When it comes to.
Speaker 3: Membership, it's solely for an online forum where they can
Speaker 3: talk and communicate with people who want to come to
Speaker 3: the club, or haven't been to the club, or are
Speaker 3: deciding to come to the club on a special event,
Speaker 3: and they can discuss and talk about it.
Speaker 1: There Hey, what snacks? Do you have? Sex makes you hungry?
Speaker 1: What happens?
Speaker 3: So we actually have an air fryer there, and we
Speaker 3: love a good like Aaron Chiney boll mozzarealistic and my
Speaker 3: manager is exceptional and will cut up carrot sticks for
Speaker 3: people and have dip and carrot sticks for everyone.
Speaker 1: So where do the carrot sticks end up? Jazz?
Speaker 3: I'm hoping in their mouth, but anything's possible in the club.
Speaker 4: Something I'm interested in is I found for me that
Speaker 4: after I had children, and I've had four of them,
Speaker 4: that my relationship, certainly in that immediate postpartum period, my
Speaker 4: relationship with my body was very different than it had
Speaker 4: been previous to having children, and I felt kind of
Speaker 4: a bit more protective or a bit more vulnerable or
Speaker 4: I really haven't analyzed it in terms of what it
Speaker 4: would mean for you. Did you experience any of those
Speaker 4: changes after you had your son?
Speaker 3: Funny enough, I probably have had sex with Jamie with
Speaker 3: more people since having Oliver, right.
Speaker 2: I think it was just.
Speaker 3: Our opportunities have become a little bit easier because now
Speaker 3: we're finding couples or people who have kids as well,
Speaker 3: and so our conversations feel a lot more comfortable, and
Speaker 3: so I think that kind of flows really quickly into.
Speaker 2: Being able to have sexual conversations.
Speaker 3: But I definitely because I opted to have a C
Speaker 3: section rather than giving a vaginal birth. I also pushed
Speaker 3: myself when we traveled six weeks after giving birth to
Speaker 3: Olli to go overseas for three weeks for two weddings.
Speaker 3: So I think, again, I'm just very strong minded and
Speaker 3: very strong willed, and if I want to do something,
Speaker 3: I'm going to do it. I read up before having
Speaker 3: Olli that people did somewhat lose themselves into becoming mothers,
Speaker 3: or there was a lot of shift in how they
Speaker 3: saw things. I think I've definitely become a lot more nurturing,
Speaker 3: a lot more caring, but I've not tried to lose
Speaker 3: the person that I was.
Speaker 2: I think it does also help that I work extremely
Speaker 2: crazy hours.
Speaker 3: I'll do twelve hour days and then come home see
Speaker 3: Ollie throughout the nighttime and then end up working until
Speaker 3: one am and go to sleep. So so I think
Speaker 3: I've just made it work rather than pulling back and
Speaker 3: giving myself time to take on things that I didn't
Speaker 3: know if I couldn't. Motherhood's definitely changed me in a
Speaker 3: way of making me more loving and caring and consider it.
Speaker 3: But it definitely didn't take away an my drive or
Speaker 3: my sexuality.
Speaker 4: And if you did find that, you were pulling in
Speaker 4: a different direction. So you're monogamish, you and Jamie, But
Speaker 4: if you wanted to be monogamous, how would that play
Speaker 4: out within the relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we've had that conversation before where sometimes we'll
Speaker 3: feel like, you know, maybe we've had an experience where
Speaker 3: that particular person and that couple didn't really suit our
Speaker 3: vibe or how we sexually wanted to interact, and we've
Speaker 3: pulled back. When we say we're monogamish, I think it's
Speaker 3: more because I would be happy to just have sex
Speaker 3: with Jamie for the rest of my life. But then
Speaker 3: there's times and moments where we both go, oh, this
Speaker 3: could be fun because we've experienced it before, so we
Speaker 3: have that taste already, so it's not something new that
Speaker 3: we're just starting to embark on. I think we've both
Speaker 3: sat there and understood that even though the options there,
Speaker 3: I don't think we always want to choose it because.
Speaker 2: We have solidified such a great relationship together.
Speaker 3: And it's very compact in how we sexually explore, because
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm more inclined to grab a toy out and
Speaker 3: play with a toy with Jamie then call up a
Speaker 3: couple or go to a swingers club. But I think
Speaker 3: also I get hindered by the fact that I own
Speaker 3: a swingers club, so.
Speaker 2: The only one I want to go is mine, And if.
Speaker 3: I go there, I end up working half the time,
Speaker 3: so it's not as it's not as easy to just
Speaker 3: slip that one in.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 4: Also, because if you work for Coca Cola, you get
Speaker 4: sacked for drinking PAPSI, so you kind of have to
Speaker 4: You have to support your own business. But in light
Speaker 4: of that, if you're at a night at the club
Speaker 4: and and you're getting amongst it, yeah, and then Jamie's
Speaker 4: the Lawrence is there? Do you and Lawrence still get
Speaker 4: physically involved or did that end with your relationship ending?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: That ended when our relationship ended. Lawrence and I strictly
Speaker 3: platonic now so we're just friends.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 4: Did you make that decision for clarity or did attraction
Speaker 4: kind of, just like you said, become brotherly and sistently?
Speaker 1: What was the decision making?
Speaker 3: I think definitely for me, he changed in the way
Speaker 3: that I did see him more as like that older
Speaker 3: brother rather than as a sexual partner. I think it
Speaker 3: really helped that he was always that person I got
Speaker 3: advice from when I needed stuff about swinging, being the
Speaker 3: person that mentored me, I guess into it. I put
Speaker 3: him into more of a like.
Speaker 2: A brotherly hat.
Speaker 3: I think it also just really helped with our relationship
Speaker 3: to build us back up quickly as friends and to
Speaker 3: really strengthen that to not involve sex into it at all.
Speaker 3: I think sex sometimes, especially with x's, can get a
Speaker 3: bit messy.
Speaker 1: Do you a little bit it's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we just it was nice being able
Speaker 3: to put all of our energy into the club rather
Speaker 3: than trying to put into energy of making something like
Speaker 3: that work. I think also we both had found sexual
Speaker 3: partners that were ticking all the boxes that we needed,
Speaker 3: so I don't think we felt like we were missing
Speaker 3: that in each other.
Speaker 1: So then do you actively avoid each other?
Speaker 2: Because I know, no, we don't actively avoid each other.
Speaker 3: Okay, thankfully we kind of swing in different circles now
Speaker 3: funny enough, but we do have mutual friends that we
Speaker 3: cross over with We've not ever had to be in
Speaker 3: group situations where it's going to be awkward. We have
Speaker 3: had conversations about if we are in a group situation,
Speaker 3: we need to.
Speaker 2: Make that work.
Speaker 3: Yes, we're both adults, we've both run the club together
Speaker 3: for over a decade now, so I think we're very
Speaker 3: confident in the way that if Lawrence wanted to play
Speaker 3: with his wife in the room and I wanted to
Speaker 3: play with Jamie, we would just one of us would
Speaker 3: just make it work.
Speaker 2: And just go somewhere else, like it's there's nothing difficult
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 4: And then would Jamie and Lawrence's wife ever get together
Speaker 4: or not?
Speaker 3: No, So they've never got together, and I don't see
Speaker 3: that happening, not out of I think they both have
Speaker 3: attraction and they both think they're attractive, but I just
Speaker 3: don't think our relationship the four of us works that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you about because I'm someone who
Speaker 4: doesn't feel a great degree of physical attraction to people
Speaker 4: without having some intellectual and emotional connection.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So at a swingers club, what is stronger?
Speaker 4: Is it the physical attraction and then you get immersed
Speaker 4: in the physical look.
Speaker 3: I think it's a bit of both people who have
Speaker 3: been to the club a lot more regularly find it's
Speaker 3: the more meant and I think for first time is
Speaker 3: it's more of a physical because you work off the
Speaker 3: easiest thing, and sites is always easier than having long,
Speaker 3: in depth conversations.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: I do find physical does still take a big chunk
Speaker 3: into a lot of everyone's play or time with each other.
Speaker 3: Physical is normally the one that people get attracted to
Speaker 3: the easiest. But I think people stay or people build
Speaker 3: those extra connections with those mentally because they have similarities
Speaker 3: or they have something that they both actually want to
Speaker 3: try together, and I think that's why they kind of
Speaker 3: deviate to stay in relationships like that.
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I was listening to the podcast and
Speaker 4: you and Lawrence were talking to a couple who'd been
Speaker 4: to the club and they went kind of as newbies
Speaker 4: admits some people before for a drink and they went
Speaker 4: to the club and they were both like, when we're
Speaker 4: just coming to look, we just want to be able
Speaker 4: to have sex in front of other people.
Speaker 1: That's like our king.
Speaker 4: We're not going down the rabbit hole, We're not whatever,
Speaker 4: And then they ended up in basically an orgy. How
Speaker 4: often do you say inhibitions totally put to one side.
Speaker 2: Often.
Speaker 3: I think that's where we say, like, don't come with
Speaker 3: an expectation, because if you expect something to happen, you
Speaker 3: put such a pressure in yourself and it normally doesn't.
Speaker 3: So if people just come thinking we'll have a conversation,
Speaker 3: you're more likely to then feel comfortable to have conversations,
Speaker 3: to build yourself to jumping into a mill of an orgy.
Speaker 4: And then after that, I imagine that people sometimes have
Speaker 4: a very pronounced physical response, like it happens sometimes after
Speaker 4: a yoga class, So I can imagine after you've been
Speaker 4: involved in an orgy that it might throw up similar emotions.
Speaker 1: Do you witness that a lot?
Speaker 3: I think I witness a lot of people having con
Speaker 3: stations a little bit more in depth after an orgy
Speaker 3: and feeling a bit more attracted. I guess because they've
Speaker 3: had that sexual connection, but I don't think it. I
Speaker 3: think they still have that connection to their partners and
Speaker 3: kind of feel like they have them by their side,
Speaker 3: but they're able to then explore some of the other
Speaker 3: elements that they've just.
Speaker 4: Had and because it's so hardwide in us. Yeah, these
Speaker 4: notions of faithfulness and fidelity and.
Speaker 1: The association with shame.
Speaker 4: Do people feel that afterwards sometimes as well?
Speaker 2: Look, I think there is those ups in the downs.
Speaker 3: I know I've definitely had that kind of cloud that
Speaker 3: comes over after a moment and being like, Oh, should
Speaker 3: I have done that? Or did I like watching that part?
Speaker 3: Or did he noticed this or did I notice that? Like,
Speaker 3: I think you always have a doubt in your mind.
Speaker 3: I think doubt is prevalent in all types of situations.
Speaker 3: But I think I think having that conversation with your
Speaker 3: partner afterwards helps you re reconnect but also establish the
Speaker 3: fact that a lot of the time you'll find your
Speaker 3: partner saw something different to what you saw because everyone's
Speaker 3: got a different perspective. So we could be in the
Speaker 3: middle of like an augy situation and I've noticed Jamie's
Speaker 3: doing X, Y and Z, But then I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: I've seen it from this perspective, but he's seeing me
Speaker 3: doing X, Y and Z and seeing that perspective. So
Speaker 3: we capture different moments while we're all interacting, which I
Speaker 3: think is it's great because then you realize that your
Speaker 3: partner's seeing the best and having composion for you, and
Speaker 3: you're having that composion for him and having that different
Speaker 3: perspective really helps you.
Speaker 2: Then, I guess for us, at least rehab sex.
Speaker 3: Again we end up finding that really fun element where
Speaker 3: I didn't realize he noticed me doing this, and he
Speaker 3: didn't realize I saw his like orgasm vase, which I
Speaker 3: always find amazing. So then we end up having sex
Speaker 3: again because we're like, well, that was really hot to
Speaker 3: A have a conversation about, but B see the fact
Speaker 3: that we were both having fun in that situation too.
Speaker 4: When you say Compersian, that is the concept of enjoying
Speaker 4: your partner's enjoyment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So you have enjoyment or happiness or you
Speaker 3: get thrilled by the fact that your partner is sexually
Speaker 3: and emotionally enjoying themselves in that moment with that person,
Speaker 3: with that situation.
Speaker 4: Conversely, there must be instances because people are at their
Speaker 4: most vulnerable and the most exposed, where people are in
Speaker 4: danger of flouting people's boundaries, or where you're like, sometimes
Speaker 4: this seems like it's a bit borderline violent. Have you
Speaker 4: had instances like that and how do you intervene?
Speaker 3: So thankfully No, thankfully with the club as well, I
Speaker 3: think we're so prominent with the fact that we need
Speaker 3: to be sure everyone's feeling safe and protected and sexy,
Speaker 3: that we never really get those really.
Speaker 2: Dangerous or bad moments.
Speaker 3: I think also people come, especially to the club, or
Speaker 3: at least when I've experienced stuff, it's people are coming
Speaker 3: to want to enhance the relationships or enhance themselves rather
Speaker 3: than take out on somebody or do it for a
Speaker 3: negative or an angry way.
Speaker 2: I know there's definitely moments where people get angry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I would think that people because it's such
Speaker 4: a primal for someone's sexuality, I would think that maybe
Speaker 4: in those moments, you've witnessed things that are like, oh,
Speaker 4: we just need to keep an eye on this. Or
Speaker 4: have you ever had to ask anyone to leave?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've definitely had to ask people to leave, But
Speaker 3: it's mainly because they've got a bit too intoxicated. I
Speaker 3: think people get a bit, a bit worried or a
Speaker 3: bit concerned that they may not be enough or they
Speaker 3: may not perform. And as much as we can tell
Speaker 3: people not to drink too much, sometimes people just drink
Speaker 3: too quickly.
Speaker 2: With the whole primal thing, I think a lot of that.
Speaker 3: Especially because as sex involved, people already have one layer
Speaker 3: of themselves off, so they're a little bit more, a
Speaker 3: bit more intimidated, a bit more observant of the fact
Speaker 3: that they are exposed. And I think you find people
Speaker 3: aren't as primarily aggressive.
Speaker 2: It's more they bring out that.
Speaker 3: Please aside in them where they want to be pleased,
Speaker 3: but then they want to please that person. And when
Speaker 3: you sense all that vibe around the room, I think
Speaker 3: a lot of the female energy, which is why we
Speaker 3: have a heavier way in having females in the club,
Speaker 3: really brings in that sensuality rather than aggression.
Speaker 1: Why had no one thought to appeal to women before.
Speaker 2: I think it was just a lot of men around clubs.
Speaker 3: I was one of the first women to run a
Speaker 3: club with my partner, and I like it's definitely become
Speaker 3: a lot more evident in clubs that are now opening
Speaker 3: up in other states that it's couples opening clubs rather
Speaker 3: than men opening clubs. From my understanding, all the clubs
Speaker 3: prior to our Secret Spot were all solely based ran
Speaker 3: by men, and I think because of that, it was
Speaker 3: very much a man's game. I know, I got a
Speaker 3: lot of hate, a lot of you know, I was
Speaker 3: the too young person who is like, had no idea
Speaker 3: what she was doing bringing in this industry, like it's
Speaker 3: all about the men, and I wanted to make sure
Speaker 3: it was definitely not about the men. And I think
Speaker 3: I was very fortunate in finding other people to support
Speaker 3: me on that element.
Speaker 2: And I think with that shift.
Speaker 3: That we've had throughout the years, it definitely women do
Speaker 3: dictate a lot of what happens inside the club and
Speaker 3: inside the lifestyle, because if women are comfortable, women are
Speaker 3: more vocal than men are, so having that comfort from
Speaker 3: us really allowed to explore and continue to have the club.
Speaker 4: Who do you think is more open minded men or women?
Speaker 3: I think it's definitely shifting to be both. I think
Speaker 3: before women were a bit more open minded, but I think, look,
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of fifty to fifty. I think
Speaker 3: we just have different perspectives on what we think or
Speaker 3: what we want as an open mind. I know in
Speaker 3: the club, at least swing wise, it's more common to
Speaker 3: have bisexual women or more of that women interaction play,
Speaker 3: but we've definitely started in the past couple of years
Speaker 3: to see a lot more bisexual play from men. I
Speaker 3: think also the style of events that we're starting to
Speaker 3: host is bringing a lot more of that. So I
Speaker 3: think as an explorative type, I think we're both equally
Speaker 3: as explorative, and especially if you're given an environment where
Speaker 3: you feel safe to do anything that sits in the
Speaker 3: realm of safe and consensual.
Speaker 2: I think everyone's going to give it a go.
Speaker 4: Your son, when will he find out what your business is?
Speaker 4: So he's two now, so he's a while off. I
Speaker 4: imagine he didn't bring your parents to work. I can't
Speaker 4: imagine you'll bring a kid to work day. But you
Speaker 4: must have discussed with Jamie when you'll introduce him to
Speaker 4: a concept of what you do.
Speaker 3: Or we'd always discussed as soon as he was understanding
Speaker 3: of what it was, we'd broach the subject. We wouldn't
Speaker 3: obviously dig deep into it, but we would definitely brush
Speaker 3: on the topic that you know, mum owns a swingers club.
Speaker 3: We try and use words like the lifestyle club, it's
Speaker 3: an adult playground, that sort of things to give those
Speaker 3: terminologies that everything's consensual, it's nothing.
Speaker 2: Bad, it's just a lifestyle choice.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a decision in how people want to explore themselves.
Speaker 3: I think as long as we continue to have that
Speaker 3: really open clarity about it. I think early on Ollie
Speaker 3: will probably be quite well aware of it and hopefully
Speaker 3: be a good advocate to his generation, because I think
Speaker 3: the more that we can educate everyone, the better it'll get.
Speaker 4: At what age do you think, in an abstract sceence,
Speaker 4: that that would happen.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm hoping it's when he gets into high school,
Speaker 3: right just before he hits into.
Speaker 2: That high school teen years.
Speaker 3: But I mean, it could be later, but I sense
Speaker 3: it'll be earlier, just because we're.
Speaker 4: So open and with socials, with socials, yeah, and other kids,
Speaker 4: it could be earlier.
Speaker 3: I have a suspicion that it probably will be earlier,
Speaker 3: especially with the way that, like you said, social media
Speaker 3: has taken off the amount of things. I've watched women
Speaker 3: put condoms onto bananas in TikTok, and it's just that
Speaker 3: was something if I watched on Instagram when I was
Speaker 3: in my twenties, it would be banned. I would never
Speaker 3: be able to have any social media account. Now it's
Speaker 3: like an educational purpose. So I'm hoping as the world
Speaker 3: continues to grow that Ollie will grow with that and
Speaker 3: be the advocate that we are for the.
Speaker 1: Club speaking of condoms.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I think has connected you
Speaker 4: with the people that you know enjoy our secret spot
Speaker 4: is the kind of humor that you bring to it
Speaker 4: that often I think was removed from sexual encounters. And
Speaker 4: it made me laugh when I saw a picture of
Speaker 4: your condom dispenses and it was regular large A puppy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, maybe it's important to have a bit of
Speaker 3: humor in it. Embarrassing moments happened during sex as well,
Speaker 3: so I think as long as you can see the
Speaker 3: light and happy in it all, it actually does make
Speaker 3: the experience better. But I'm always impressed when somebody thinks
Speaker 3: they're and I are puppy condom size because I can.
Speaker 2: Being over my hand. So it's a big keena.
Speaker 1: Yeah right.
Speaker 4: How many genuine eye puppies are there on a standard weekend?
Speaker 1: Maybe one?
Speaker 3: Oh, Look, we have up to one hundred and forty
Speaker 3: people every event, so I'm going to say maybe like
Speaker 3: a handful of those would fit that condom size more
Speaker 3: often than not. The regular is the size that a
Speaker 3: lot of people are so, like you're six to seven inches,
Speaker 3: That's why it's called regular, right, It's the size that
Speaker 3: most people take. But you find a lot of people
Speaker 3: use a large size. But honestly, when you're at the club,
Speaker 3: people aren't looking at what the condom size you're taking.
Speaker 3: They're just looking at you're putting a condom on. That's
Speaker 3: all they care about. A lot of men who come
Speaker 3: regularly or come with their partners are confident enough to
Speaker 3: grab the right size.
Speaker 2: But you find first timers always go.
Speaker 3: For the bigger size just to give themselves that little
Speaker 3: bignuroty that they're a bit bigger than they are. But
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, as long as you
Speaker 3: do well with that pennis or whatever, then I'm happy.
Speaker 4: Like a teenager at a seven eleven, they're trying to
Speaker 4: big themselves up. Yeah, Jessica, Telly, you are so fascinating.
Speaker 1: Where do you think in ten years time you'll.
Speaker 3: Be probably still doing this. I have found my passion
Speaker 3: in this. I enjoy being able to be an advocate
Speaker 3: for something that ten years ago wasn't easy to talk about,
Speaker 3: So I'm more than happy to continue doing this. I
Speaker 3: think Lawrence and I are both wanting to expand the business,
Speaker 3: so we're looking to do a full Eastern seaboard takeover
Speaker 3: within the next ten years.
Speaker 1: So a franchise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, keep going, keep building, make our secret spot all
Speaker 3: up and down the coast.
Speaker 2: But yeah, definitely building on that.
Speaker 3: Jamie and I are in the talks of having our
Speaker 3: second child soon, so I'm just ensuring that all works
Speaker 3: out really nicely before we open a second business.
Speaker 4: Well, Jesse, I don't know how much you know about sex,
Speaker 4: but you know babies don't come through talking.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, we've definitely practiced.
Speaker 3: I've just I've just held off of the securing the
Speaker 3: practice inside.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, okay, Okay, Jessica Kelly, thank you so much
Speaker 4: for joining us on No Filters.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: That was Jess Katlly, a woman who's built her life
Speaker 4: around curiosity, connection, and an unconventional idea of what relationships
Speaker 4: can look like. Whether or not her choices are for you,
Speaker 4: what's clear is that Jess has found a way to
Speaker 4: talk about sex, jealousy, and love with unusual honesty and
Speaker 4: a good dose of humor. Thanks for listening to No Filter.
Speaker 4: The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown. The
Speaker 4: senior producer is Pre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown,
Speaker 4: and video editing is by Josh Green. This episode was
Speaker 4: recorded at Session in Progress Studios and I'm your host,
Speaker 4: Kate Laine Brook.
Speaker 1: See you next Monday.