Speaker 1: A quick content warning before we begin that this episode
Speaker 1: does touch on heavier themes than usual surrounding criminal investigations
Speaker 1: and cold cases, so please do take care when listening.
Speaker 2: The strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial
Speaker 2: evidence that we've found, is that there is I think
Speaker 2: a reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle,
Speaker 2: in the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives They adore,
Speaker 1: the good.
Speaker 3: Bad and ugly.
Speaker 1: The best and worst day will bear all the facets
Speaker 1: of seizing your Yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah,
Speaker 1: a lawyer turned fu entrepreneurshs walped the Suits and Heels
Speaker 1: to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar.
Speaker 3: CZA is a series.
Speaker 1: Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring
Speaker 1: the self doubt challenge, joy and fulfillment. Along the way,
Speaker 1: I've discovered that the problem with being an excitable person
Speaker 1: who always uses excitable language is that I leave no
Speaker 1: superlatives in reserve for when something truly blows me away.
Speaker 1: But I think most of Australia and a lot of
Speaker 1: the world in fact, at least sixty million listeners, if
Speaker 1: not more, will easily grasp why. I'm pinching myself that
Speaker 1: our guest this week is none other than Headley Thomas,
Speaker 1: national Chief correspondent for The Australian and creator of globally
Speaker 1: acclaimed investigative podcasts The Teacher's Pet, Shandy Story, The Night
Speaker 1: Driver and the currently ongoing Bronwin. Those sounds and his
Speaker 1: delcet tones likely need no introduction, but I'll give it
Speaker 1: my best shot. It's in my nature to find every
Speaker 1: human and story interesting, and so I love all of
Speaker 1: our guests on this show.
Speaker 3: But I do have a.
Speaker 1: Rolling list of dream guests who I never think I'll get,
Speaker 1: and Headley Thomas has been one of those since twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen when he literally changed the landscape of criminal and
Speaker 1: cold case investigations with The Teacher's Pet, leading to the
Speaker 1: murder conviction of Chris Dawson for the previously unsolved disappearance
Speaker 1: of his wife Lynett Dawson in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 3: You all know that while.
Speaker 1: On this show I'm all about the ya and bringing
Speaker 1: the joy, my personal guilty pleasure has always been at
Speaker 1: true crime and there is possibly no more influential person
Speaker 1: in this space than Hedley. You can imagine how nervous
Speaker 1: I was in a way I haven't been in a
Speaker 1: long time to interview such such a renowned, articular Gold
Speaker 1: Walkley Award winning journalist, wanting to do him justice, to
Speaker 1: explore his incredible work, explore a bit of who he
Speaker 1: is outside of that work, as you know we love
Speaker 1: to do on this show. A father, a lover of cows,
Speaker 1: as it turns out, a fan of white lotus, and
Speaker 1: ask all my burning behind the scenes questions about the
Speaker 1: Bronwin case and what it takes to solve long overlooked crimes. Basically,
Speaker 1: we need a whole headly series on CZA and spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: there may be a follow up to this episode that
Speaker 1: we're working on in the background, but for now, I
Speaker 1: tried to whittle my questions down to things not exhaustively
Speaker 1: covered elsewhere. So we do assume some baseline knowledge of
Speaker 1: his cases and prior podcasts, and skate over much of
Speaker 1: his fascinating pathway and all the chapters that came before podcasting,
Speaker 1: which I highly recommend you go on research because it's
Speaker 1: a fascinating journey. He's worked on so many incredible stories
Speaker 1: in his career, and of course I'll include more links
Speaker 1: in the show notes. I have so much more to say,
Speaker 1: but I know you're all waiting to hear the voice
Speaker 1: that so many of us know so well. I knew
Speaker 1: Headley would be eloquent and fascinating, but I really didn't
Speaker 1: expect him to be quite so humble and warm. We
Speaker 1: actually even had a forty five minute debrief call the
Speaker 1: next day when he was on a long drive to
Speaker 1: a new lead in the Bronwin case, and he just
Speaker 1: talks to you like you're an old friend. This was
Speaker 1: truly such a life highlight for me, and I hope
Speaker 1: that you guys all enjoy as much as I did.
Speaker 3: Headley Thomas, welcome to Seize the A.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I'm sorry for my
Speaker 2: technical stupidity in getting sorted at the start.
Speaker 1: Not at all. I mean, I have to tell you. You know,
Speaker 1: when people ask if you could have dinner with anyone
Speaker 1: in the world, dead or alive, and people always say
Speaker 1: Obama and Princess Diana, mother Teresa, I always say Headley Thomas.
Speaker 3: So this is very surreal to me right now.
Speaker 2: Well, that's very kind and it's surreal for me to
Speaker 2: get that kind of feedback. I have to tell you,
Speaker 2: my adult children think it's crazy when people sometime say,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I listened to all your dad's podcasts,
Speaker 2: and they're like, yeah, we haven't caught up with them yet.
Speaker 1: It's so funny that kids will always humble you so much,
Speaker 1: and it's crazy to think that you have, like you
Speaker 1: have children and a family and tell us what you
Speaker 1: were doing when you first logged on. I thought you'd
Speaker 1: be off doing something crazy, but it was such a
Speaker 1: wholesome Monday morning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been up since very early helping my friend
Speaker 2: Ken clear lantana. This introduced weed has been infesting our paddocks,
Speaker 2: and my wife's gone to work, so I thought I'll
Speaker 2: just go in there with the machete and the peak
Speaker 2: and the maddic and pull out these clumps of lantana
Speaker 2: to clear for the cows. We a couple of cows
Speaker 2: and their pastor their grass is diminished when the lantana spread.
Speaker 2: So that's what I've been doing this morning.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I mean, one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: to do on this show is to zoom out from
Speaker 1: people who we have parasocial relationships with. I think we
Speaker 1: know quite well. But I'm sure that is not what
Speaker 1: anyone thought you would be doing to starty your week.
Speaker 1: And having said that, my answer was you about the
Speaker 1: dinner question. I also always answer Headley Thomas when I'm
Speaker 1: asked about in interviews about my favorite podcast or what
Speaker 1: I'm binging. And I'm sure most of Australia, at least
Speaker 1: most of the people I know, also answer that. But
Speaker 1: You're probably the only person in Australia who would say
Speaker 1: not Headley Thomas, given that that's you. So before we
Speaker 1: get into the juice of today, to give us our
Speaker 1: listener something else that they might not already know about you,
Speaker 1: What does the great Headley Thomas listen to? Are you
Speaker 1: a true crime listener yourself? Do you have a favorite podcast?
Speaker 1: Do you binge TV?
Speaker 2: I've been binging a bit of TV, actually, John, I
Speaker 2: must admit that after I've listened to hours of draft
Speaker 2: episodes of Now Bromwin and previously Shandy Story and my
Speaker 2: other podcast. So when I've finished with that, I think
Speaker 2: I just need a break from the audio. I do
Speaker 2: listen to some history podcasts and I find some great
Speaker 2: stuff about Australian history with the ABC and a couple
Speaker 2: of independent podcasters, but mostly I look for escapism in
Speaker 2: Netflix or Apple TV and Stan and all of them. Actually,
Speaker 2: White Lotus has been no one captivating us lately. We
Speaker 2: were recently in Thailand because we had our honeymoon in
Speaker 2: Thailand thirty years ago, so we went back a few
Speaker 2: weeks ago for a wedding anniversary and our children joined
Speaker 2: us there as well, and we went to the same
Speaker 2: resort that we stayed in. We used to live in
Speaker 2: Hong Kong and went from Hong Kong to Pouquet in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five when we were married, and you know,
Speaker 2: White Lotus of course the latest season has been filmed
Speaker 2: in Thailand, and then going back with our children now
Speaker 2: almost twenty seven and twenty four and just thinking, gosh,
Speaker 2: you know, we're still together and we're still really happy.
Speaker 2: And my wife was a journalist and she's now a nurse,
Speaker 2: and she's always been a fantastic supporter of everything I've done,
Speaker 2: and our kids are fantastic too, so we feel very blessed. Well.
Speaker 1: I love that you sort of spoke to that idea
Speaker 1: of going back to a place where you were in
Speaker 1: a chapter in your life that was, you know, before everything,
Speaker 1: and reminiscing on that, because one thing I love about
Speaker 1: podcasting is that every episode you do is like a
Speaker 1: time capsule of the person that you were back at
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 3: So I would usually.
Speaker 1: Start every episode by going back to your childhood to
Speaker 1: young Headley to remind our listeners that everyone, even Walkley
Speaker 1: Award winning National treasures like Headley Thomas starts somewhere, namely
Speaker 1: as a copy boy at the Gold Coast Bulletin, and
Speaker 1: I think we you might find this with your children,
Speaker 1: that you know, there's an intense pressure today to find
Speaker 1: your purpose and find success, but it's very normal to
Speaker 1: not know where you'd end up. But this time I
Speaker 1: have to actually start in the reverse. I feel like
Speaker 1: I have to start in real time with Bronwyn because
Speaker 1: you're in the middle of season three with some new
Speaker 1: developments just this week that we'd shuffle this around for
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure what you can tell us exactly,
Speaker 1: but my first question really is how are you feeling
Speaker 1: right now? What does it feel like when the cadence
Speaker 1: of what you're working on ramps up?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I feel that with the Bronwin investigation and the
Speaker 2: information that has been discovered through the podcast and through
Speaker 2: listeners getting in touch with me and with members of
Speaker 2: Brombin's family, I really believe that we should be and
Speaker 2: the police should be, at a tipping point in terms
Speaker 2: of action, and that if there isn't action as a
Speaker 2: result of what has come out, then there's something amiss
Speaker 2: in our criminal justice system because in my view and
Speaker 2: in the view of other very experienced people, including experienced
Speaker 2: lawyers who have followed this evidence closely, there is a
Speaker 2: serious injustice in Brumlin's case. It has been an injustice
Speaker 2: for many years. There's potential to correct that injustice right
Speaker 2: now because of new information and new evidence and new
Speaker 2: witnesses who have come forward. And we wait to see
Speaker 2: whether the authorities and by that I mean the police
Speaker 2: and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions will
Speaker 2: do what we believe is the right thing here and
Speaker 2: if they do not, then I think there should be
Speaker 2: very serious and searching answers coming forward from those agencies
Speaker 2: in terms of why not. You know, it won't be
Speaker 2: good enough that they just did a bat it and
Speaker 2: say nothing, because we need some accountability. If there's going
Speaker 2: to be nil action from here, I'll be and the family,
Speaker 2: more importantly, Bromwan's family will be deeply disappointed. A by
Speaker 2: wanting wanting explanations, I mean.
Speaker 1: We'll come back to the sort of impact of investigative
Speaker 1: podcast and a lot of what you have to say
Speaker 1: and how you've shaped the relationship between the media and
Speaker 1: the police and the authorities in criminal investigations. But I'm
Speaker 1: going to assume a lot of our listeners are up
Speaker 1: to date with the Bronwin podcast. I don't want to
Speaker 1: waste too much time on what they can catch up
Speaker 1: on elsewhere. But just quickly, you're investigating the disappearance of
Speaker 1: Bronwin Winfield in nineteen ninety three, and it took her
Speaker 1: husband eleven days to report her as missing and she's
Speaker 1: never been found. I think we're at episode thirty and
Speaker 1: actually later today, I think it'll be episode thirty one
Speaker 1: of what you thought would only be six to eight episodes,
Speaker 1: and we're currently waiting on a very important determination submitted
Speaker 1: by Bromwin's brother Andy to the State Coroner about potentially
Speaker 1: where her body may be, So can you tell us
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 3: And we we're up to yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: We're at a point where we seek from the State
Speaker 2: corner of New South Wales a determination after Andy wrote
Speaker 2: to her and it was about a nine page letter
Speaker 2: drafted by a very experienced lawyer who has dealt at
Speaker 2: length with coronial investigations in the past for the Australian government.
Speaker 2: And Andy's letter asked the coroner to please use her
Speaker 2: powers to perform a search of a property in the
Speaker 2: Southerland Shire where Andy has grown up, in a place
Speaker 2: called Illawong. And that is because at a certain address
Speaker 2: in Illowog. And we haven't revealed the address in the
Speaker 2: podcast because we don't want to bring unnecessary distress to
Speaker 2: the current residence. But almost thirty two years ago that
Speaker 2: address in Illawong was a building site for a family home.
Speaker 2: John was working as the brick lay on that site.
Speaker 2: His boss was a builder called Glenn Webster, and Glenn
Speaker 2: would end up living in that house with his family
Speaker 2: after it was completed. The reason we're very suspicious of
Speaker 2: that building site is because John made a very hasty
Speaker 2: overnight trip from lennox Head. John Winfield, being the husband
Speaker 2: of Bromwin and being a person who knew that he
Speaker 2: and Bromwin had split up, he wanted to do everything
Speaker 2: in his power to retain control of their house in
Speaker 2: lenox Head, near Banana. But when Bromwyn, according to John,
Speaker 2: left the house that night, John packed his children up,
Speaker 2: threw a few things in the car and made an
Speaker 2: overnight drive from lenox Head to Sydney, about a nine
Speaker 2: to eleven hour drive. It was highly unusual. It appeared
Speaker 2: to be what lawyers regard as flight, as in just urgent,
Speaker 2: unexplained almost fleeing a scene. The police believe that John
Speaker 2: was fleeing a crime scene. John has always denied wrongdoing.
Speaker 2: The police position is that John probably murdered Bromwin in
Speaker 2: the house that night. That's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2: That's the allegation that John has always denied, and the
Speaker 2: strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial evidence
Speaker 2: that we've found, is that there is I think a
Speaker 2: reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle in
Speaker 2: the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney,
Speaker 2: and that John went to the building site which would
Speaker 2: have been deserted on the Monday, which was the seventeenth
Speaker 2: of May nineteen ninety three, and right where two areas
Speaker 2: were being prepared for the pouring of concrete slabs, a
Speaker 2: patio area and a garage area. John, if this theory holds,
Speaker 2: has put Bromwin's body beneath the reinforcing steel that goes
Speaker 2: down and the plastic just before the concrete goes down.
Speaker 2: One of the reasons we're really suspicious, well, there's two
Speaker 2: in particular that are reliably new. I was told by
Speaker 2: an informant who saw John on the Monday and he
Speaker 2: was very flustered. He driven overnight and he said that
Speaker 2: he had to be back for a concrete poor, a
Speaker 2: concrete poor in the Shire. Another reason is because we
Speaker 2: found documents from the Southern Shire Council, the council that
Speaker 2: was responsible for building approvals and for inspections of building
Speaker 2: sites when they were due to get a concrete poor
Speaker 2: and at different stages of the construction of a house.
Speaker 2: We found documents that showed that the council's inspectors had
Speaker 2: come out just days before Bromwin had disappeared to inspect
Speaker 2: the pre poor site and give the green light for
Speaker 2: the concrete pour to occur. So the concrete pour must
Speaker 2: have occurred within days of that and John has rushed back,
Speaker 2: but he didn't need to be at a concrete pour.
Speaker 2: Glenn Webster has confirmed that there was no need for John,
Speaker 2: as the brick layer, to have been involved in the
Speaker 2: concrete poor. There is also some timing issues in terms
Speaker 2: of John's whereabouts, and his movements for several hours on
Speaker 2: the Monday were not explained. When he was interviewed by
Speaker 2: the police, he left out some crucial details that could
Speaker 2: have led police to question more closely what he was
Speaker 2: doing in the afternoon, and he left out the fact,
Speaker 2: for example, that he took his two daughters to his
Speaker 2: ex wife's house and left his two daughters there for
Speaker 2: several hours and.
Speaker 1: With her mother in law who they never met, wasn't it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is very unusual.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 1: I have clearly been following along with my whiteboard in
Speaker 1: the office.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you're right on it.
Speaker 2: So we don't say and I believe that you know,
Speaker 2: we've taken this as far as we can in terms
Speaker 2: of how we've described the circumstances in Elolong. We don't
Speaker 2: say that Bromwin must be there, but it's a site
Speaker 2: that should have been searched. The detective Glenn Taylor, who
Speaker 2: did more work than anyone else through the investigation of
Speaker 2: what happened to Bromwin, Glenn Taylor, he says very clearly
Speaker 2: that if he had known what we have found at
Speaker 2: the time of his investigation, he would have gone to
Speaker 2: the coroner and requested that that site be searched, and
Speaker 2: he believes that the coroner would have granted him the order.
Speaker 2: There's a few other details, including that one of Crystal's
Speaker 2: friends has described how Crystal told her that her father,
Speaker 2: John said, do not look in the boot under any circumstances.
Speaker 2: Do not open the boot. Now you know these sorts
Speaker 2: of details. They are concerning, and John didn't have a
Speaker 2: lot of time. If the coroner's view that Bromwin died
Speaker 2: on the night of Sunday is true is correct, he
Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of time to dispose of a body. Now,
Speaker 2: it's really difficult talking about it in these terms because
Speaker 2: it sounds like we have absolutely made up our minds
Speaker 2: that John must have done it, and he still has
Speaker 2: as a presumption of innocence. So it's a really tricky
Speaker 2: thing to describe in these terms, and I have to
Speaker 2: keep stressing that John has denied wrongdoing. He's never been
Speaker 2: charged with anything. Although a coroner has recommended that there
Speaker 2: be a prosecution of John Winfield by the Office of
Speaker 2: the DPP, that hasn't happened. There is nobody and there's
Speaker 2: no forensic evidence that connects John to his wife's disappearance
Speaker 2: and suspected murder.
Speaker 4: Having said all of that.
Speaker 2: There are powerful, circumstantial pieces of evidence that in our view,
Speaker 2: demand new attention from the Office of the DPP, because
Speaker 2: it does, when it's all put together, make for a
Speaker 2: very compelling case.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I get sort of the same goosebumps,
Speaker 1: the similarities at a certain time in lynd Dawson in
Speaker 1: the teacher's pat's investigation of where you weren't drawing conclusions necessarily,
Speaker 1: but you were uncovering things that were missed originally and
Speaker 1: looking at under concrete and it's more eliminating possibilities rather
Speaker 1: than necessarily saying what did happen. It's exploring things that
Speaker 1: weren't investigated at the time, and again a missing woman
Speaker 1: with decades in between. It's just overwhelming the power of
Speaker 1: what you've been able to do to fill gaps that
Speaker 1: were not investigated at the time. And I think, as
Speaker 1: you said, it is a tipping point. Waiting for this
Speaker 1: determination about whether or not you can proceed to eliminate
Speaker 1: this particular site will be a huge new step in
Speaker 1: where you're at. But I'd also love to just while
Speaker 1: we wait on that, zoom out a little bit to
Speaker 1: go behind the scenes and see the stuff that probably
Speaker 1: listeners to Bronwan don't see as much, which is in
Speaker 1: between all these episodes. What does your life look like
Speaker 1: mid season? So, as you mentioned, you are sort of
Speaker 1: eliminating options that weren't investigated. You are You're not in
Speaker 1: an office typing, you're draining lakes. You're wrapping colleagues in
Speaker 1: sheets to investigate the body in the boot and the timing.
Speaker 1: And someone asked, I think in the listener episode you
Speaker 1: did recently, do you have whiteboards and pieces of string
Speaker 1: tying them together? How are you organizing your information? I
Speaker 1: know it's not a full time team, so you know,
Speaker 1: I hear Claire Harvey's voice on the front every day
Speaker 1: on other materials, I'm like, how is her brain even
Speaker 1: dealing with the multiapasceted things that you guys are all doing,
Speaker 1: so you know, you're turning around episodes in real time,
Speaker 1: Like whats are behind the scenes of building Bronwen right now?
Speaker 2: Look Like yeah, Look, it can be pretty intense at times.
Speaker 2: And it's only because I'm going to be fifty eight
Speaker 2: in you know, month and a half, I have had
Speaker 2: a lot of experience writing under pressure and with deadlines,
Speaker 2: and just because I've been a journalist for you know,
Speaker 2: pretty much the best part of four years, I think
Speaker 2: that I've been able to manage the stresses that would
Speaker 2: ordinarily be just overwhelming in a way that makes us
Speaker 2: able to knit together and every week still be able
Speaker 2: to produce the episode. And my small but perfectly formed
Speaker 2: team of colleagues, you know, we all come together in
Speaker 2: such a I would say, cooperative and practical and good
Speaker 2: humored way. And they're not working with me full time,
Speaker 2: but when I need support, you know, they are there.
Speaker 2: They step in and I sort of sometimes think, well,
Speaker 2: if we had a much bigger team, if we had
Speaker 2: more time, would we get better results, would there be
Speaker 2: a better production, And perhaps there would be, or maybe
Speaker 2: there's something in the fact that you know you give
Speaker 2: your best when you're under pressure, when there's only a
Speaker 2: limited amount of time left. You've got to write ten
Speaker 2: thousand words in a day and a half get it produced,
Speaker 2: and that's when you know that your brain is really
Speaker 2: firing and you can give your roll. You're exhausted as
Speaker 2: well because it is grueling and demanding stuff, and then
Speaker 2: you're very paranoid at times that you're going to make mistakes.
Speaker 2: And I've become a bit of a stickler for the
Speaker 2: detail and making sure that everything is factually right. I
Speaker 2: hate it when there's something wrong or something that might
Speaker 2: have been misunderstood. And I feel like the way we've
Speaker 2: all worked together and the quality of my colleagues and
Speaker 2: the professionalism means that we make very very few mistakes.
Speaker 2: If we do make an error and it's discovered, a
Speaker 2: listen might point out something, or we'll realize after the fact,
Speaker 2: we fix it and re release the episode. It might
Speaker 2: mean snipping a line or narrating a new line, but
Speaker 2: we just try and fix it up and so if
Speaker 2: it's wrong, it's not wrong.
Speaker 4: For long.
Speaker 2: I feel that I've got just such a rare opportunity
Speaker 2: to make a potential difference thanks to the support I
Speaker 2: get from my friends and colleagues, the listenership that wants
Speaker 2: to help people who've come out of the woodwork with
Speaker 2: great ideas and offers to be involved, offers to apply
Speaker 2: their own knowledge or information they've gleaned from their job,
Speaker 2: their profession, People who would happily work for free to
Speaker 2: help solve these cases and make a difference. And you think, gosh,
Speaker 2: that's amazing. I mean, how lucky are we? And I
Speaker 2: get many many emails from people. It takes me sometimes
Speaker 2: a little while to apply to everybody, but I do
Speaker 2: try to apply to everyon so that you know, I
Speaker 2: can thank them for the help that they offer and
Speaker 2: often take it up because it is a big help.
Speaker 1: Well, Hadlee, I actually started out as a commercial lawyer,
Speaker 1: but criminal law was always my sort of pro bono passion.
Speaker 1: And if you had been in podcasting back then, I
Speaker 1: might have been another carena volunteering her time with you,
Speaker 1: and perhaps I would have lasted.
Speaker 3: Longer in the law.
Speaker 1: And yet here we are two podcasters with two gold
Speaker 1: Walkleys between us, both being yours, but there is still
Speaker 1: an average one age. But one thing I think that
Speaker 1: is really interesting just coming back to the impact of
Speaker 1: what you're doing and the ability to make a difference,
Speaker 1: which you have well and truly shown that you have
Speaker 1: actually changed the course. I mean the Teachers pet changed
Speaker 1: the course not only of Lynn Dawson or Lynette Sims
Speaker 1: and her family and Chris Dawson and the result of
Speaker 1: that case, but really the face of crime reporting and
Speaker 1: you know, cold cases Australia, white and worldwide. But you know,
Speaker 1: we often say on this show, you might end up
Speaker 1: in a job that you didn't even know existed, and
Speaker 1: that's part of the path where you don't need to
Speaker 1: know how things end up when you begin. When you
Speaker 1: won your first gold Walkley, the word podcast had only
Speaker 1: been coined like maybe two and a half years before that,
Speaker 1: so I'm sure you had no idea that this would
Speaker 1: end up and you've almost created the industry that you're in.
Speaker 1: This you called it crime reporting in a recent episode,
Speaker 1: but I actually think it's crime solving. You've gone beyond
Speaker 1: just sitting reporting what's happening to actually getting into the
Speaker 1: guts of a case and filling gaps. Really in whole investigations.
Speaker 1: Trailblazers in an industry like that often face a lot
Speaker 1: of skepticism. Now it's easy to say, look at the
Speaker 1: teacher's pet.
Speaker 3: Look what we did.
Speaker 1: I'm sure the cases like Bronwyn are coming up and
Speaker 1: the resources are coming you know, they're free flowing now
Speaker 1: the support of the Australian of Harvey Norman was it
Speaker 1: a really hard sell the first time.
Speaker 2: I was passionate about investigating what happened to Lynn Dawson,
Speaker 2: who we now refer to as Lynn Simms. And because
Speaker 2: of the support that my editor in chief in the
Speaker 2: past had given me with good results, he understood how
Speaker 2: much I believed in this case and I made a
Speaker 2: very powerful submission as to why we should dedicate months
Speaker 2: of my time full time to it and also all
Speaker 2: of the resources that it would require in terms of
Speaker 2: other staff. But you know, it was a risky thing
Speaker 2: for us to take on at the time because we
Speaker 2: didn't know what the outcomes would be, except that we
Speaker 2: knew there would be eye watering legal bills.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 2: They continued for years because after Chris Dawson was charged
Speaker 2: with his wife's murder, both Chris Dawson's legal defense team
Speaker 2: and the officer that Republic Prosecutions wanted to have an
Speaker 2: insight into all of my correspondents and my emails and
Speaker 2: text messages with people involved in the case, as well
Speaker 2: as more than one hundred gigabytes of audio and other
Speaker 2: material that was on my laptop, So all the interviews
Speaker 2: that I'd done and interviews that I'd attempted to do,
Speaker 2: and you know, probably more than one hundred hours of material.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I've never actually added up the duration. I felt sorry
Speaker 2: for the poor people who had to listen to it all, because,
Speaker 2: as you know, you could record for two hours and
Speaker 2: maybe only use ten minutes of audio from an interview.
Speaker 1: I mean, the people who did get to listen probably
Speaker 1: felt like they got the director's cut of the Teacher's
Speaker 1: Pet podcast. I wouldn't listened to all that extra material.
Speaker 1: I'd do it for free.
Speaker 4: That's really cool, that's very cold.
Speaker 2: We took enormous risks, no question, we went out on
Speaker 2: a limb a very long way, and I was criticized
Speaker 2: by some in the legal profession and certainly by at
Speaker 2: least one judge who heard Chris Dawson's application for the
Speaker 2: whole process to be permanently canceled stayed as the legal term,
Speaker 2: and his argument was that he couldn't get a fair trial,
Speaker 2: that I had also, with all of my interviews, effectively
Speaker 2: contaminated Crown witnesses so that their versions of the evidence
Speaker 2: couldn't be relied upon. He also argued that the police
Speaker 2: investigations were so sloppy and had missed so much material
Speaker 2: early on that he wouldn't be able to prove his innocence.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't be able to demonstrate his innocence. He had
Speaker 2: all of these arguments running, and I thought, well, we've
Speaker 2: got to get through so many barriers as part of
Speaker 2: his application before there's even a murder trial. We have
Speaker 2: to effectively go on trial ourselves and demonstrate that we
Speaker 2: didn't contaminate witnesses. That it is perfectly appropriate after the
Speaker 2: disappearance of a woman who's suspected by two coroners to
Speaker 2: have been murdered, and if nothing has happened, and the
Speaker 2: criminal justice system hasn't responded in the way that we
Speaker 2: believe it should have been, it is perfectly appropriate for
Speaker 2: investigative journalism to step in. Who else is going to
Speaker 2: the family had run out of options. This case looked
Speaker 2: like it should have been dealt with many, many years ago,
Speaker 2: and in our view, it was disgraceful that the police
Speaker 2: hadn't done a better job early on, and that others
Speaker 2: hadn't been able to pick up the pieces for many
Speaker 2: years later. So I feel that we had to stare
Speaker 2: down the criticism and try to explain from the perspective
Speaker 2: of the expectations of victims of crime, and also the
Speaker 2: duties of journalism to shine a light on crimes that
Speaker 2: have been unsolved and cases that might still have a
Speaker 2: chance if we're able to apply the podcasting techniques and
Speaker 2: investigative techniques to try to draw new witnesses who hadn't
Speaker 2: spoken before out, and then the police could interview those witnesses.
Speaker 2: The contaminated witness argument that Chris Dawson ran fell over
Speaker 2: In the end. The judge who heard this day application
Speaker 2: said that he could get a fair trial, and his
Speaker 2: own lawyers ultimately made no submission that any of the
Speaker 2: witnesses had been contaminated. But it was a rough period
Speaker 2: and I didn't know which way it would go, and
Speaker 2: I would be lying if I said I was unconcerned.
Speaker 2: I was really concerned because I felt that if we
Speaker 2: fell over at this point, if Chris Dawson's day application succeeded,
Speaker 2: then it would be not just a terrible blow to
Speaker 2: Lynn's family and loved ones and all the people who
Speaker 2: help me, it would be a major setback for investigative
Speaker 2: podcast journalism by others, by younger and also experienced journalists
Speaker 2: who wanted to do more of what I had started
Speaker 2: to do. Would they be able to would they get
Speaker 2: the support of their news organizations. If this effectively campaign
Speaker 2: that we ran in the Teacher's pet ended up being
Speaker 2: condemned and led to the charges against Chris Dawson being terminated,
Speaker 2: it was a difficult time.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would call that sort of the great
Speaker 1: cost of bravery, or of the cost of being the
Speaker 1: first to do something in the face of great obstacles
Speaker 1: and traditional legal institutions and media institutions, and the skepticism
Speaker 1: that you face, and extrapolating that for our listeners, not
Speaker 1: all of whom are probably operating at your level of
Speaker 1: influence in a global wave that involves the legal system.
Speaker 1: So intimately, I think we all do face moments of
Speaker 1: doubt externally, internally, moments of extreme obstacles to doing anything
Speaker 1: new and different, and that's part of getting outside your
Speaker 1: comfort zone and making change. But it has come at
Speaker 1: an extreme personal cost to you. And I used the
Speaker 1: word bravery because I think it is extraordinarily brave that
Speaker 1: you have taken the weight of investigative journalism as a whole,
Speaker 1: and you've faced gunshots in your house and death threats.
Speaker 1: It's not just sort of trolling and haters, but it's
Speaker 1: personal safety. It's extreme hostility from people in the public
Speaker 1: who are invested in this, and also probably people who
Speaker 1: aren't invested in it and still just for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: placing judgment on you as a person. Have you ever
Speaker 1: wanted to give up? I mean, I know you even
Speaker 1: you left journalism sort of in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: I mean this was before the Teacher's Pet chapter. But
Speaker 1: in your career facing barriers like that, have you ever
Speaker 1: wanted to give up? Have you ever been sort of
Speaker 1: overcome by the negativity of the subject matter domestic violence,
Speaker 1: the moral quandaries that come with the truth.
Speaker 2: The closest I've ever come to leaving journalism was in
Speaker 2: late two thousand and two, early two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: and it was after the shooting at our family home
Speaker 2: in Brisbane, my children were threatened, my wife was traumatized.
Speaker 2: I was in I think a state of shock and
Speaker 2: then ended up having post traumatic stress from it. And
Speaker 2: you know, I felt that up to that point I
Speaker 2: had been striving really hard with investigative stories and important.
Speaker 4: Cases that needed to be.
Speaker 2: Aired, and then an unknown government put four bullets into
Speaker 2: our family home. And we lived in a rural part
Speaker 2: of Brisbane semi rule, and it was a knight, and
Speaker 2: the bullets could have caused a killing. I mean, the
Speaker 2: person who fired them was not shooting at us in
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, he couldn't see us in the house.
Speaker 2: He just wanted or she who knows, just wanted to
Speaker 2: put four bullets into the home. But you know, one
Speaker 2: of those bullets went through the bedroom window. Our bedroom
Speaker 2: window just have been less than thirty centimeters over my
Speaker 2: wife's pillow. We were in bed, and another bullet went
Speaker 2: into the children's toy room. Now they were asleep, they
Speaker 2: woke up. My daughter woke up screaming because of the noise.
Speaker 2: And then for weeks afterwards, the police were making multiple
Speaker 2: investigations and inquiries and following up people who were featured
Speaker 2: in some of the stories that I'd been writing at
Speaker 2: the time, and they were stumped. They had no idea
Speaker 2: because the list of potential suspects was long. I gave
Speaker 2: them some idea, probably just made things even harder for them,
Speaker 2: because I don't know whether I was on the money
Speaker 2: or not. But for a long time afterwards, I couldn't
Speaker 2: actually manage my own emotions when people would ask me
Speaker 2: about that shooting, and I would have what I later
Speaker 2: understood was a sort of a PTSD response, where you know,
Speaker 2: if you had asked me in say January two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, a few months after the shooting, if we
Speaker 2: were having a chat and you started talking to me
Speaker 2: about the shooting, you would see me here and I'd
Speaker 2: still be trying to talk to you, but my eyes
Speaker 2: would be streaming tears and they would just be rolling
Speaker 2: down and I wouldn't be able to turn it off.
Speaker 2: It'd just be like this water works event. It was
Speaker 2: embarrassing and really distressing, and it happened in interviews and
Speaker 2: social events, in work meetings if somebody just asked me
Speaker 2: a direct question about the shooting, and suddenly the brain
Speaker 2: just goes into this unusual stress response, and I would
Speaker 2: just start streaming and I just would have to excuse
Speaker 2: myself and I didn't know how that was going to end,
Speaker 2: would it resolve? And I got some help, and that
Speaker 2: help was instrumental in making sure that I remained in
Speaker 2: journalism and with my family, got through it, recovered, stayed
Speaker 2: in our own home, so we didn't let you know
Speaker 2: whoever had done this evil act defeat house. Our children
Speaker 2: loved where we lived, and we loved where we lived.
Speaker 2: We'd only been there a few years, having moved back
Speaker 2: from Hong Kong in nineteen ninety nine, and I think
Speaker 2: that was important. I think that we had to stay
Speaker 2: and stare down the risk and the challenge. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I definitely through the low points before I got some
Speaker 2: psychological support, good advice on how to deal with things.
Speaker 2: That was when I could have left journalism and stayed
Speaker 2: out of journalism.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, coming back to the idea that no
Speaker 1: pathway is linear or without twists and turns and backward steps,
Speaker 1: and I mean, in this case trauma and a great
Speaker 1: personal cost to you to continue the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1: It does just highlight that it's not easy for you
Speaker 1: to be doing something so impactful. But I love hearing
Speaker 1: about you speak about what it means to know the
Speaker 1: impact of what you're doing. That you have gone from yeah,
Speaker 1: not knowing what podcasting really was when you were still,
Speaker 1: you know, quite far into your career to now, I
Speaker 1: mean it's millions and millions of listeners, to just this
Speaker 1: season alone, brand new witnesses, Judy Singh coming out of
Speaker 1: the woodwork that would never have been uncovered without you,
Speaker 1: and really unleashing the power of an investigative tool for
Speaker 1: society that was not there. The police resources cannot uncover
Speaker 1: everything that the power of the media and the Internet
Speaker 1: and the platforms that you have can now, just coming
Speaker 1: back to a personal connection for you, I think I
Speaker 1: read that your own grandmother had gone missing. Do you
Speaker 1: think that that would have been different if podcasting and
Speaker 1: investigative journalism had been around back then?
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a really interesting question. I haven't been asked
Speaker 2: that question before, and I hadn't even thought about it.
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, Hadley, I think I can retire now. I
Speaker 1: was so desperate to ask you something you had never
Speaker 1: been asked, and I thought that's going to be impossible for.
Speaker 3: I can stop recording now.
Speaker 2: I'm good yeah, I mean, you know, it kind of
Speaker 2: would tick the boxes in many ways for sorts of
Speaker 2: cases that I look at. And it's diffical for me
Speaker 2: to talk about it because I adored my father, who
Speaker 2: died in twenty seve seventeen, and I didn't talk a
Speaker 2: lot to my dad about the disappearance of his mum
Speaker 2: because I knew that it could upset him. He loved
Speaker 2: his mum and he grew up on Sydney's Northern Beaches,
Speaker 2: not too far from where Lynn disappeared. My grandmother disappeared
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six from the family home. Her night
Speaker 2: dress was found on the beach at d Y. I
Speaker 2: have a little clipping from the Sydney Morning Herald that
Speaker 2: describes the disappearance and quotes a police officers saying that
Speaker 2: this piece of clothing had been found.
Speaker 4: On the sand.
Speaker 2: My grandmother had some mental health issues. I believe it
Speaker 2: must have been depression, and she was suspected to have
Speaker 2: swum through the breakers at d Y and just kept
Speaker 2: swimming until she drowned. No trace of her has ever
Speaker 2: been recovered, but I know that my dad for many
Speaker 2: years looked in crowds, and this is what people who
Speaker 2: have lost a loved one. Do do I believe that
Speaker 2: there was foul play involved in my grandmother's disappearance. I've
Speaker 2: been asked that question, and I do not believe that
Speaker 2: there was. But I'm fairly sure that if it hadn't
Speaker 2: been for that event in my own family, my father's life,
Speaker 2: I would not have felt the affinity, and I don't
Speaker 2: think I would have had the same kind of almost
Speaker 2: mission or zeal to do the Teacher's Pet. I don't
Speaker 2: think I would have had the understanding of what it
Speaker 2: means for people like lyn, sister Pat Jenkins, and brother
Speaker 2: Greg Simms, and all the other amazing members of Lynn's
Speaker 2: family who helped me. I wouldn't have understood the ambiguous
Speaker 2: loss that people have when someone disappears without explanation. And
Speaker 2: I didn't disclose in the Teacher's Pet or anywhere in
Speaker 2: any media interviews what had happened in my own family
Speaker 2: because I felt that it wasn't really well, it wasn't
Speaker 2: at all relevant to what I was investigating in relation
Speaker 2: to Lynn. But it was this very powerful force, a
Speaker 2: private force for me, and it was I think at
Speaker 2: times propelling me. And I wasn't vicariously investigating my grandmother's disappearance,
Speaker 2: but I was revisiting places that my dad and my
Speaker 2: mother went to, and while I was running around the
Speaker 2: Northern Beaches talking to Lynn's friends and trying to catch
Speaker 2: up with former school students of Chroma High and going
Speaker 2: to Bayview and so on, I felt like I was,
Speaker 2: in the same year that my dad died, connecting with
Speaker 2: him and my own grandmother through This sounds a bit weird,
Speaker 2: but I just felt like that I was making a
Speaker 2: bit of a connection while investigating an evil act and
Speaker 2: at the same time reflecting on my dad's life and
Speaker 2: my grandmother's life. And I kept the two things separate
Speaker 2: in terms of the story until I wrote a book
Speaker 2: called The Teacher's Pet that was released in late twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, and I went into what had happened there.
Speaker 2: There was a little bit of seepage in so far
Speaker 2: as in an email that I had written, a private
Speaker 2: email that I had written to Rebecca Hazel, who was
Speaker 2: helping me with the Teacher's Pet investigation. You know, I
Speaker 2: had mentioned that because Rebecca was a great support and
Speaker 2: help and we became really good friends and we remained
Speaker 2: great friends, and I just disclosed to Rebecca this event
Speaker 2: in my family's history that I felt gave me a
Speaker 2: better insight into some of the things that were going on.
Speaker 2: That email was turned over. I had to turn it
Speaker 2: over to Chris Dawson and his lawyers, and his lawyers
Speaker 2: were one of them, no doubt, on instructions, copied that
Speaker 2: email and released it to journalists during one of the
Speaker 2: preliminary court appearances, and spoke to journalists about how this
Speaker 2: event was somehow newsworthy and fortunately it didn't really get
Speaker 2: much traction, but it is, to be fair, a pivotal
Speaker 2: event in my family's history that has unquestionably made a
Speaker 2: difference to the way I perceive these cases and what
Speaker 2: I want to do and how I try to go
Speaker 2: about them. And I have written and I have said
Speaker 2: before that I'm pretty confident if it had not been
Speaker 2: for the disappearance of my father's mother, I don't know
Speaker 2: whether I would have done. I don't believe I would
Speaker 2: have done what I've done. And I suspect that the
Speaker 2: memory of what happened or not the memory of what
Speaker 2: happened I didn't I don't know what really happened, but
Speaker 2: the knowledge that that had happened somehow helped me do
Speaker 2: those eighteen twenty hour days and back up for another
Speaker 2: one and another one, another one who gave me extra
Speaker 2: stamina and that allowed me to push through.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that, Hadley.
Speaker 3: It's funny.
Speaker 1: I think we always talk on this show about in
Speaker 1: much less probably deep episodes, just the idea that people's
Speaker 1: journeys the dots always connect in a funny way. And
Speaker 1: I think this is your version of those dots connecting
Speaker 1: to me, and you ended up exactly where you were
Speaker 1: supposed to, even if perhaps you didn't know that that's
Speaker 1: where you would end up when you began. And your
Speaker 1: extraordinary empathy that your person no connection to having missing persons,
Speaker 1: that you bring to the podcast, I think does allow
Speaker 1: listeners who have no connection whatsoever to that kind of
Speaker 1: story or experience to get a small taste of what
Speaker 1: that feels like in a way that we can't have,
Speaker 1: we have never experienced in any other kind of documentary
Speaker 1: or journalistic piece, which makes people want to come forward
Speaker 1: with evidence they have. I think it's created something that
Speaker 1: wasn't there before, which is truly extraordinary, And that brings
Speaker 1: me to one of my last questions for you. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot on this show about the definition of success.
Speaker 1: There's so much fixation I mentioned at the beginning, so
Speaker 1: much fixation on being successful and fame and wealth and
Speaker 1: the way that it often changes throughout your life what
Speaker 1: that means to you. And I think your definition would
Speaker 1: probably be different to any other guest we've had eight
Speaker 1: Walkley's two gold I don't even need to ask you
Speaker 1: to know that that's probably not why you're in this
Speaker 1: or what your definition of success is.
Speaker 3: What is it for you?
Speaker 1: And if you don't get an answer or solve this
Speaker 1: case with Bronwyn, I mean, in the Dawson case, I
Speaker 1: think there was a very very successful result. What if
Speaker 1: you don't get that result here, how you feel in
Speaker 1: terms of success?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'll it's the first part first, because for me,
Speaker 2: success is about trying to achieve results, trying to right
Speaker 2: the wrongs and reverse the injustices and expose the appalling
Speaker 2: failures and the wrongdoers wherever possible. And also I hope
Speaker 2: that you know that is a legacy that will be
Speaker 2: something that other people will say I might be able
Speaker 2: to do that, and I can do it better and
Speaker 2: if I have more resources picking up the model that
Speaker 2: Hedley was doing, then maybe we can change more of
Speaker 2: these cases for the so leaving something behind. I'd hate
Speaker 2: to have had a career in journalism where at the
Speaker 2: end of it and then you know, I've sort of
Speaker 2: prepared to go into retirement. I've looked back and thought,
Speaker 2: did I do forty years of journalism or forty five
Speaker 2: years of journalism and make no difference, or did some
Speaker 2: people benefit from some of the journalism at least some
Speaker 2: of the journalism that I've done, And so that's part
Speaker 2: of the motivation. I think that you can do that
Speaker 2: if you are true to yourself and if you have
Speaker 2: the support of colleagues and an employer who allows you
Speaker 2: to really push the boundaries. And pushing the boundaries as
Speaker 2: we have done in these investigations means taking big legal
Speaker 2: risks that can be costly and require a lot of
Speaker 2: courage of the organization that is sponsoring me. And in
Speaker 2: terms of how I would feel if the Bromin investigation
Speaker 2: really goes nowhere in so far as the police and
Speaker 2: the DPP is concerned, I mean, I would just feel
Speaker 2: bitterly disappointed for Bromwin's brother and sister and good friends
Speaker 2: and others who have pinned their hopes on something changing here.
Speaker 2: But more than that, I think that I would, and
Speaker 2: I hope many listeners would be demanding answers as to
Speaker 2: why it doesn't go forward. Some people have a right
Speaker 2: to be angry if it doesn't go forward, because there
Speaker 2: is in our system a reasonable expectation that strong evidence.
Speaker 2: Even in a case that'll be thirty two years old
Speaker 2: next month, that's strong evidence, new evidence as well. It
Speaker 2: takes a case further really should motivate those who make
Speaker 2: decisions about what to do with the case that a
Speaker 2: Curner recommended should be prosecuted, and that was back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and two. You know that responsibility remains, it
Speaker 2: doesn't go away, and that's what happened in Chris Dawson's
Speaker 2: case as well. So I hope that that people won't
Speaker 2: give up and persistence does pay off. You don't just
Speaker 2: stop because the story has come to its end. I
Speaker 2: feel that there's still more that can be done. And
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to be almost like an obsessive.
Speaker 1: Crank in terms of we're all very grateful that you
Speaker 1: are an obsessive crank.
Speaker 3: It's done wonderful.
Speaker 4: Things the world. It will be stubbornly determined to keep going. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is quite an unusual position to be
Speaker 1: in life where your job really is something that you
Speaker 1: started thinking it would be eight episodes long, and you
Speaker 1: actually don't know how long you're going to be on this.
Speaker 1: You don't know where it's going to go. That uncertainty
Speaker 1: is quite unique and fascinating and exciting and overwhelming in
Speaker 1: so many things all at once. But knowing every day
Speaker 1: that you're on it is impactful in a way that's
Speaker 1: gotten further than the original investigation ever did.
Speaker 3: Is incredible.
Speaker 1: I could do three seasons of Headley, the Man, the Myth,
Speaker 1: the Legend. I wish I had as much time as
Speaker 1: would allowed to ask all the questions I have for you,
Speaker 1: But I will finish on one that comes back to
Speaker 1: the title of this podcast, that sees the yay. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot about the meaning of success, but then
Speaker 1: more importantly the meaning of joy and what brings you
Speaker 1: yay in your life and being involved. Twenty four seven
Speaker 1: and I'm sure even when you're not working on your
Speaker 1: mind is a very heavy case of a disappearance, potentially
Speaker 1: a murder, talking about bodies.
Speaker 3: Where do you mind?
Speaker 4: Joy?
Speaker 1: In your life in the midst of that kind of
Speaker 1: subject matter. I know there's a lot of humor in
Speaker 1: the team, and you guys are great at lifting.
Speaker 3: Each other up.
Speaker 1: How do you And for anyone else listening who does
Speaker 1: work in sort of a heavy field, how do you
Speaker 1: find yay?
Speaker 2: I get yay from a couple of really simple things,
Speaker 2: and to spring to mind, because I've been getting the
Speaker 2: ya from those over the last twenty four hours. Filma
Speaker 2: and Louise beautiful cows.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I thought you meant actual Velma and
Speaker 1: Lloyd's the cows.
Speaker 3: I love cows. Oh my gosh, that's the best.
Speaker 4: Cows are the best looking.
Speaker 2: The coastal track cows of the Sunshine Beach to Loosa
Speaker 2: heads with my wife as we did yesterday morning.
Speaker 4: That was awesome.
Speaker 2: And Okay, here's another pleasure that takes little effort. Body
Speaker 2: surfing a nice wave at Noos Sir Or Main Beach
Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast where I lived as a teenager.
Speaker 2: Just taking off on that wave and getting slightly rolled
Speaker 2: and dumb then.
Speaker 4: Jump from back up.
Speaker 2: It makes you feel like you're fourteen again.
Speaker 4: And I love doing that stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Hedley, what an amazing way to finish
Speaker 1: a wonderful answer. I am so grateful for your time,
Speaker 1: knowing that you are in the thick of the investigation
Speaker 1: and we will be all I mean Australia, the world
Speaker 1: will be following so closely with what happens. It's funny
Speaker 1: I heard in one of the episodes talking about how
Speaker 1: you're famous, someone said on a plane to you that
Speaker 1: women around the world go to sleep. They go to
Speaker 1: bed with Headley Thomas every night, which is true. That
Speaker 1: must be surreal, but we will continue to do so.
Speaker 1: Your poor wife, my wife.
Speaker 4: Has some head shaking moment.
Speaker 1: The sultry tones of Headley Thomas. You should do like
Speaker 1: a sleep audio book or something.
Speaker 4: I've actually thought about that.
Speaker 2: I've wondered whether that could be my post podcast career,
Speaker 2: doing voiceovers or even endorsements for a mattress.
Speaker 4: Make it means I got so many people in this belief.
Speaker 1: You know, people instantly anywhere in the world, anywhere on
Speaker 1: any screen. If I heard your voice, we'd know, You'd know.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, is that Headly Thomas in Italy selling Fanta?
Speaker 1: Like we know it was you from miles and miles away.
Speaker 2: It could be my part time manager on something like
Speaker 2: that and giving a few geeks.
Speaker 3: I would love that you just wait.
Speaker 4: Let's seal the deal at one of your dinner party.
Speaker 3: Yes, it sounds wonderful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Headley, and thank you for everything
Speaker 1: that you are doing for for I mean really women everywhere,
Speaker 1: being the father of daughters, changing the landscape for women
Speaker 1: who go missing and face real injustice at the hands
Speaker 1: of the system and people around them.
Speaker 3: Thank you for everything.
Speaker 2: Thank you for you very empathic and insightful questioning, and
Speaker 2: it's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1: I just loved every minute of this chat, as I'm
Speaker 1: sure you could tell.
Speaker 3: I hope some of you guys did too.
Speaker 1: But I also ended up with a million more questions
Speaker 1: for Hendley by the end. I found it so hard
Speaker 1: to pick the questions I really wanted to ask in
Speaker 1: the hour that we were so lucky to have. If
Speaker 1: you're as much of a fangirl as me, of course
Speaker 1: we have the questions enough to fill an entire series
Speaker 1: on Headley. So I am pinching myself to say that
Speaker 1: Headley has so kindly offered to do a follow up chat,
Speaker 1: which may or may not end up happening live and
Speaker 1: in person. For our Melbourne listeners. It's been so long
Speaker 1: since we did a live event and I actually can't
Speaker 1: fathom that we might be doing one with the great
Speaker 1: Headley Thomas. We're teasing out the details, but I will
Speaker 1: keep you all posted, so do stay tuned.
Speaker 3: It was just so surreal to chat to a voice you've.
Speaker 1: Known for so many years, and I can only imagine
Speaker 1: how many of you would also be keen to ask
Speaker 1: you more person and to meet him bought an experience.
Speaker 3: Still can't believe I'm saying that, So yes, stay tuned.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, links to further materials on all of
Speaker 1: Headley's work are in the show notes and in this episode.
Speaker 1: More than ever, we would be so grateful if you
Speaker 1: could share the episode or any materials on Bronwin's case,
Speaker 1: as if you are listening, you'll know new leads could
Speaker 1: come from anywhere and it does remain unsolved in the meantime.
Speaker 3: I hope you enjoyed listening.
Speaker 1: I hope you have a wonderful Easter break ahead and
Speaker 1: are seizing your yea