WEBVTT - Hedley Thomas // Missing persons, the media and making a difference 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.840 A quick content warning before we begin that this episode 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.680 does touch on heavier themes than usual surrounding criminal investigations 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.720 and cold cases, so please do take care when listening. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.480 The strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.960 evidence that we've found, is that there is I think 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.920 a reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.160 in the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.520 Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.600 are not the same thing. We too rarely question what 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.400 makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.680 rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.479 one way. So this is a platform to hear and 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.000 explore the stories of those who found lives They adore, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:47.879 the good. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:48.479 Bad and ugly. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.440 The best and worst day will bear all the facets 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:57.040 of seizing your Yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.000 a lawyer turned fu entrepreneurshs walped the Suits and Heels 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.320 to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:04.720 CZA is a series. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.560 Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.160 the self doubt challenge, joy and fulfillment. Along the way, 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.240 I've discovered that the problem with being an excitable person 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.760 who always uses excitable language is that I leave no 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.920 superlatives in reserve for when something truly blows me away. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:27.640 But I think most of Australia and a lot of 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.840 the world in fact, at least sixty million listeners, if 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.360 not more, will easily grasp why. I'm pinching myself that 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.240 our guest this week is none other than Headley Thomas, 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.640 national Chief correspondent for The Australian and creator of globally 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:56.480 acclaimed investigative podcasts The Teacher's Pet, Shandy Story, The Night 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:10.320 Driver and the currently ongoing Bronwin. Those sounds and his 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.359 delcet tones likely need no introduction, but I'll give it 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.760 my best shot. It's in my nature to find every 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.360 human and story interesting, and so I love all of 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:20.480 our guests on this show. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:21.520 But I do have a. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.960 Rolling list of dream guests who I never think I'll get, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.760 and Headley Thomas has been one of those since twenty 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.520 eighteen when he literally changed the landscape of criminal and 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.120 cold case investigations with The Teacher's Pet, leading to the 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.480 murder conviction of Chris Dawson for the previously unsolved disappearance 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.720 of his wife Lynett Dawson in nineteen eighty two. 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:43.679 You all know that while. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.120 On this show I'm all about the ya and bringing 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.120 the joy, my personal guilty pleasure has always been at 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.800 true crime and there is possibly no more influential person 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.440 in this space than Hedley. You can imagine how nervous 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.120 I was in a way I haven't been in a 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.360 long time to interview such such a renowned, articular Gold 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.880 Walkley Award winning journalist, wanting to do him justice, to 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.840 explore his incredible work, explore a bit of who he 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:10.799 is outside of that work, as you know we love 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.080 to do on this show. A father, a lover of cows, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.040 as it turns out, a fan of white lotus, and 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.680 ask all my burning behind the scenes questions about the 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:24.000 Bronwin case and what it takes to solve long overlooked crimes. Basically, 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.440 we need a whole headly series on CZA and spoiler alert, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.640 there may be a follow up to this episode that 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.680 we're working on in the background, but for now, I 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.160 tried to whittle my questions down to things not exhaustively 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:40.120 covered elsewhere. So we do assume some baseline knowledge of 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.640 his cases and prior podcasts, and skate over much of 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.440 his fascinating pathway and all the chapters that came before podcasting, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.320 which I highly recommend you go on research because it's 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.480 a fascinating journey. He's worked on so many incredible stories 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.040 in his career, and of course I'll include more links 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.680 in the show notes. I have so much more to say, 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.640 but I know you're all waiting to hear the voice 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.600 that so many of us know so well. I knew 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.920 Headley would be eloquent and fascinating, but I really didn't 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.320 expect him to be quite so humble and warm. We 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.640 actually even had a forty five minute debrief call the 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.960 next day when he was on a long drive to 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.040 a new lead in the Bronwin case, and he just 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.520 talks to you like you're an old friend. This was 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.880 truly such a life highlight for me, and I hope 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.240 that you guys all enjoy as much as I did. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.880 Headley Thomas, welcome to Seize the A. 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.279 Thank you for having me, and I'm sorry for my 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:36.400 technical stupidity in getting sorted at the start. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.920 Not at all. I mean, I have to tell you. You know, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.239 when people ask if you could have dinner with anyone 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.400 in the world, dead or alive, and people always say 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.240 Obama and Princess Diana, mother Teresa, I always say Headley Thomas. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.320 So this is very surreal to me right now. 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.479 Well, that's very kind and it's surreal for me to 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.240 get that kind of feedback. I have to tell you, 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.320 my adult children think it's crazy when people sometime say, 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.440 oh my god, I listened to all your dad's podcasts, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.960 and they're like, yeah, we haven't caught up with them yet. 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.560 It's so funny that kids will always humble you so much, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.200 and it's crazy to think that you have, like you 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.000 have children and a family and tell us what you 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.040 were doing when you first logged on. I thought you'd 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.400 be off doing something crazy, but it was such a 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:20.600 wholesome Monday morning. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.360 Yeah, I've been up since very early helping my friend 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:32.240 Ken clear lantana. This introduced weed has been infesting our paddocks, 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.440 and my wife's gone to work, so I thought I'll 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.400 just go in there with the machete and the peak 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.119 and the maddic and pull out these clumps of lantana 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.880 to clear for the cows. We a couple of cows 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:51.480 and their pastor their grass is diminished when the lantana spread. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.159 So that's what I've been doing this morning. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.360 Oh my goodness. I mean, one of my favorite things 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.200 to do on this show is to zoom out from 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.360 people who we have parasocial relationships with. I think we 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.480 know quite well. But I'm sure that is not what 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.520 anyone thought you would be doing to starty your week. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.440 And having said that, my answer was you about the 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.440 dinner question. I also always answer Headley Thomas when I'm 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.520 asked about in interviews about my favorite podcast or what 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.440 I'm binging. And I'm sure most of Australia, at least 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.479 most of the people I know, also answer that. But 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.920 You're probably the only person in Australia who would say 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.160 not Headley Thomas, given that that's you. So before we 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.120 get into the juice of today, to give us our 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.839 listener something else that they might not already know about you, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.440 What does the great Headley Thomas listen to? Are you 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.600 a true crime listener yourself? Do you have a favorite podcast? 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:39.640 Do you binge TV? 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.840 I've been binging a bit of TV, actually, John, I 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.680 must admit that after I've listened to hours of draft 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:54.159 episodes of Now Bromwin and previously Shandy Story and my 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.880 other podcast. So when I've finished with that, I think 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.240 I just need a break from the audio. I do 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:04.599 listen to some history podcasts and I find some great 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.279 stuff about Australian history with the ABC and a couple 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:13.240 of independent podcasters, but mostly I look for escapism in 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.480 Netflix or Apple TV and Stan and all of them. Actually, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:22.240 White Lotus has been no one captivating us lately. We 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.680 were recently in Thailand because we had our honeymoon in 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.360 Thailand thirty years ago, so we went back a few 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.520 weeks ago for a wedding anniversary and our children joined 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.880 us there as well, and we went to the same 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.080 resort that we stayed in. We used to live in 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:41.480 Hong Kong and went from Hong Kong to Pouquet in 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.960 nineteen ninety five when we were married, and you know, 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.880 White Lotus of course the latest season has been filmed 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:51.760 in Thailand, and then going back with our children now 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.920 almost twenty seven and twenty four and just thinking, gosh, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.560 you know, we're still together and we're still really happy. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.960 And my wife was a journalist and she's now a nurse, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.360 and she's always been a fantastic supporter of everything I've done, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:10.600 and our kids are fantastic too, so we feel very blessed. Well. 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.720 I love that you sort of spoke to that idea 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.360 of going back to a place where you were in 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.800 a chapter in your life that was, you know, before everything, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.840 and reminiscing on that, because one thing I love about 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.160 podcasting is that every episode you do is like a 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.400 time capsule of the person that you were back at 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:27.840 that time. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.360 So I would usually. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.800 Start every episode by going back to your childhood to 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.640 young Headley to remind our listeners that everyone, even Walkley 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.880 Award winning National treasures like Headley Thomas starts somewhere, namely 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.720 as a copy boy at the Gold Coast Bulletin, and 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.600 I think we you might find this with your children, 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.800 that you know, there's an intense pressure today to find 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.200 your purpose and find success, but it's very normal to 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.680 not know where you'd end up. But this time I 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.360 have to actually start in the reverse. I feel like 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.520 I have to start in real time with Bronwyn because 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.840 you're in the middle of season three with some new 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.920 developments just this week that we'd shuffle this around for 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.720 so I'm not sure what you can tell us exactly, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.920 but my first question really is how are you feeling 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.760 right now? What does it feel like when the cadence 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.520 of what you're working on ramps up? 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:19.840 Yeah. 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:24.760 Look, I feel that with the Bronwin investigation and the 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.640 information that has been discovered through the podcast and through 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.400 listeners getting in touch with me and with members of 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.080 Brombin's family, I really believe that we should be and 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:41.040 the police should be, at a tipping point in terms 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.800 of action, and that if there isn't action as a 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:50.439 result of what has come out, then there's something amiss 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.960 in our criminal justice system because in my view and 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.400 in the view of other very experienced people, including experienced 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.560 lawyers who have followed this evidence closely, there is a 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.600 serious injustice in Brumlin's case. It has been an injustice 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:13.040 for many years. There's potential to correct that injustice right 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:17.160 now because of new information and new evidence and new 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:22.520 witnesses who have come forward. And we wait to see 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.760 whether the authorities and by that I mean the police 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.440 and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions will 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.280 do what we believe is the right thing here and 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.880 if they do not, then I think there should be 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:45.479 very serious and searching answers coming forward from those agencies 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.480 in terms of why not. You know, it won't be 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.200 good enough that they just did a bat it and 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:56.440 say nothing, because we need some accountability. If there's going 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:01.360 to be nil action from here, I'll be and the family, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:06.080 more importantly, Bromwan's family will be deeply disappointed. A by 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.720 wanting wanting explanations, I mean. 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.119 We'll come back to the sort of impact of investigative 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:14.920 podcast and a lot of what you have to say 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.439 and how you've shaped the relationship between the media and 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.679 the police and the authorities in criminal investigations. But I'm 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.600 going to assume a lot of our listeners are up 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.760 to date with the Bronwin podcast. I don't want to 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.640 waste too much time on what they can catch up 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.640 on elsewhere. But just quickly, you're investigating the disappearance of 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.400 Bronwin Winfield in nineteen ninety three, and it took her 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.680 husband eleven days to report her as missing and she's 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.160 never been found. I think we're at episode thirty and 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.120 actually later today, I think it'll be episode thirty one 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.400 of what you thought would only be six to eight episodes, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.560 and we're currently waiting on a very important determination submitted 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.560 by Bromwin's brother Andy to the State Coroner about potentially 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.600 where her body may be, So can you tell us 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:00.160 about that? 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.240 And we we're up to yeah, that's right. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.240 We're at a point where we seek from the State 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:11.520 corner of New South Wales a determination after Andy wrote 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.800 to her and it was about a nine page letter 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.880 drafted by a very experienced lawyer who has dealt at 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:22.000 length with coronial investigations in the past for the Australian government. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.920 And Andy's letter asked the coroner to please use her 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:33.440 powers to perform a search of a property in the 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.839 Southerland Shire where Andy has grown up, in a place 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.320 called Illawong. And that is because at a certain address 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.560 in Illowog. And we haven't revealed the address in the 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.600 podcast because we don't want to bring unnecessary distress to 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.680 the current residence. But almost thirty two years ago that 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.240 address in Illawong was a building site for a family home. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.240 John was working as the brick lay on that site. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.160 His boss was a builder called Glenn Webster, and Glenn 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.559 would end up living in that house with his family 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.199 after it was completed. The reason we're very suspicious of 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.800 that building site is because John made a very hasty 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:22.439 overnight trip from lennox Head. John Winfield, being the husband 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.640 of Bromwin and being a person who knew that he 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.360 and Bromwin had split up, he wanted to do everything 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.719 in his power to retain control of their house in 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.800 lenox Head, near Banana. But when Bromwyn, according to John, 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.439 left the house that night, John packed his children up, 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.079 threw a few things in the car and made an 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.880 overnight drive from lenox Head to Sydney, about a nine 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:54.760 to eleven hour drive. It was highly unusual. It appeared 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:59.800 to be what lawyers regard as flight, as in just urgent, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.880 unexplained almost fleeing a scene. The police believe that John 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.400 was fleeing a crime scene. John has always denied wrongdoing. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:14.400 The police position is that John probably murdered Bromwin in 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.080 the house that night. That's what it comes down to. 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:22.320 That's the allegation that John has always denied, and the 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.840 strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial evidence 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.000 that we've found, is that there is I think a 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.480 reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle in 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.080 the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:43.880 and that John went to the building site which would 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.119 have been deserted on the Monday, which was the seventeenth 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:53.760 of May nineteen ninety three, and right where two areas 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.440 were being prepared for the pouring of concrete slabs, a 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:03.480 patio area and a garage area. John, if this theory holds, 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:09.520 has put Bromwin's body beneath the reinforcing steel that goes 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.320 down and the plastic just before the concrete goes down. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.760 One of the reasons we're really suspicious, well, there's two 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.160 in particular that are reliably new. I was told by 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.880 an informant who saw John on the Monday and he 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:30.800 was very flustered. He driven overnight and he said that 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.160 he had to be back for a concrete poor, a 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.600 concrete poor in the Shire. Another reason is because we 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:44.000 found documents from the Southern Shire Council, the council that 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:50.520 was responsible for building approvals and for inspections of building 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.080 sites when they were due to get a concrete poor 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.760 and at different stages of the construction of a house. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:02.960 We found documents that showed that the council's inspectors had 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:08.000 come out just days before Bromwin had disappeared to inspect 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.680 the pre poor site and give the green light for 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.280 the concrete pour to occur. So the concrete pour must 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:23.000 have occurred within days of that and John has rushed back, 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.120 but he didn't need to be at a concrete pour. 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.800 Glenn Webster has confirmed that there was no need for John, 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.680 as the brick layer, to have been involved in the 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.920 concrete poor. There is also some timing issues in terms 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:44.120 of John's whereabouts, and his movements for several hours on 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.560 the Monday were not explained. When he was interviewed by 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:55.480 the police, he left out some crucial details that could 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.120 have led police to question more closely what he was 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.800 doing in the afternoon, and he left out the fact, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.800 for example, that he took his two daughters to his 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.560 ex wife's house and left his two daughters there for 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.000 several hours and. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.000 With her mother in law who they never met, wasn't it, Yeah, 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:15.280 which is very unusual. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:16.560 That's right. 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.159 I have clearly been following along with my whiteboard in 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:21.800 the office. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.600 Yeah, I'm glad you're right on it. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.679 So we don't say and I believe that you know, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.359 we've taken this as far as we can in terms 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.560 of how we've described the circumstances in Elolong. We don't 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.920 say that Bromwin must be there, but it's a site 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:44.760 that should have been searched. The detective Glenn Taylor, who 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:49.639 did more work than anyone else through the investigation of 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.560 what happened to Bromwin, Glenn Taylor, he says very clearly 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:59.520 that if he had known what we have found at 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.199 the time of his investigation, he would have gone to 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.639 the coroner and requested that that site be searched, and 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.000 he believes that the coroner would have granted him the order. 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.720 There's a few other details, including that one of Crystal's 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:20.479 friends has described how Crystal told her that her father, 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.320 John said, do not look in the boot under any circumstances. 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.359 Do not open the boot. Now you know these sorts 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.840 of details. They are concerning, and John didn't have a 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:37.200 lot of time. If the coroner's view that Bromwin died 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:43.600 on the night of Sunday is true is correct, he 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.080 didn't have a lot of time to dispose of a body. Now, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.840 it's really difficult talking about it in these terms because 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:57.240 it sounds like we have absolutely made up our minds 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.000 that John must have done it, and he still has 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.120 as a presumption of innocence. So it's a really tricky 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.600 thing to describe in these terms, and I have to 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.680 keep stressing that John has denied wrongdoing. He's never been 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:14.679 charged with anything. Although a coroner has recommended that there 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.280 be a prosecution of John Winfield by the Office of 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.320 the DPP, that hasn't happened. There is nobody and there's 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:27.800 no forensic evidence that connects John to his wife's disappearance 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.280 and suspected murder. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.240 Having said all of that. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:38.680 There are powerful, circumstantial pieces of evidence that in our view, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.520 demand new attention from the Office of the DPP, because 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.240 it does, when it's all put together, make for a 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.840 very compelling case. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.280 I mean, I think I get sort of the same goosebumps, 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.879 the similarities at a certain time in lynd Dawson in 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.879 the teacher's pat's investigation of where you weren't drawing conclusions necessarily, 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.320 but you were uncovering things that were missed originally and 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.800 looking at under concrete and it's more eliminating possibilities rather 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.000 than necessarily saying what did happen. It's exploring things that 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.320 weren't investigated at the time, and again a missing woman 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.399 with decades in between. It's just overwhelming the power of 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:23.600 what you've been able to do to fill gaps that 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.640 were not investigated at the time. And I think, as 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.280 you said, it is a tipping point. Waiting for this 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.880 determination about whether or not you can proceed to eliminate 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.520 this particular site will be a huge new step in 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.560 where you're at. But I'd also love to just while 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.919 we wait on that, zoom out a little bit to 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.000 go behind the scenes and see the stuff that probably 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.560 listeners to Bronwan don't see as much, which is in 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.840 between all these episodes. What does your life look like 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.199 mid season? So, as you mentioned, you are sort of 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.919 eliminating options that weren't investigated. You are You're not in 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.639 an office typing, you're draining lakes. You're wrapping colleagues in 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.720 sheets to investigate the body in the boot and the timing. 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.960 And someone asked, I think in the listener episode you 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.960 did recently, do you have whiteboards and pieces of string 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.359 tying them together? How are you organizing your information? I 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.679 know it's not a full time team, so you know, 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.280 I hear Claire Harvey's voice on the front every day 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.359 on other materials, I'm like, how is her brain even 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.960 dealing with the multiapasceted things that you guys are all doing, 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.080 so you know, you're turning around episodes in real time, 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.800 Like whats are behind the scenes of building Bronwen right now? 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:41.120 Look Like yeah, Look, it can be pretty intense at times. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.280 And it's only because I'm going to be fifty eight 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.560 in you know, month and a half, I have had 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:55.240 a lot of experience writing under pressure and with deadlines, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.960 and just because I've been a journalist for you know, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.040 pretty much the best part of four years, I think 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.400 that I've been able to manage the stresses that would 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.760 ordinarily be just overwhelming in a way that makes us 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:15.600 able to knit together and every week still be able 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:20.240 to produce the episode. And my small but perfectly formed 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.760 team of colleagues, you know, we all come together in 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:30.080 such a I would say, cooperative and practical and good 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.240 humored way. And they're not working with me full time, 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.760 but when I need support, you know, they are there. 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:41.800 They step in and I sort of sometimes think, well, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.680 if we had a much bigger team, if we had 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:50.200 more time, would we get better results, would there be 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:55.359 a better production, And perhaps there would be, or maybe 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.960 there's something in the fact that you know you give 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.240 your best when you're under pressure, when there's only a 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.440 limited amount of time left. You've got to write ten 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:08.679 thousand words in a day and a half get it produced, 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.480 and that's when you know that your brain is really 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.080 firing and you can give your roll. You're exhausted as 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:19.600 well because it is grueling and demanding stuff, and then 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.800 you're very paranoid at times that you're going to make mistakes. 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.919 And I've become a bit of a stickler for the 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:33.359 detail and making sure that everything is factually right. I 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:37.320 hate it when there's something wrong or something that might 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:42.520 have been misunderstood. And I feel like the way we've 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.560 all worked together and the quality of my colleagues and 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:50.959 the professionalism means that we make very very few mistakes. 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.080 If we do make an error and it's discovered, a 0:23:55.200 --> 0:24:00.040 listen might point out something, or we'll realize after the fact, 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.720 we fix it and re release the episode. It might 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.600 mean snipping a line or narrating a new line, but 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.440 we just try and fix it up and so if 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:11.600 it's wrong, it's not wrong. 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:12.040 For long. 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:17.680 I feel that I've got just such a rare opportunity 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.000 to make a potential difference thanks to the support I 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:26.000 get from my friends and colleagues, the listenership that wants 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:30.600 to help people who've come out of the woodwork with 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:36.240