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Speaker 1: A quick content warning before we begin that this episode

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Speaker 1: does touch on heavier themes than usual surrounding criminal investigations

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Speaker 1: and cold cases, so please do take care when listening.

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Speaker 2: The strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial

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Speaker 2: evidence that we've found, is that there is I think

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Speaker 2: a reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle,

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Speaker 2: in the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives They adore,

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Speaker 1: the good.

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Speaker 3: Bad and ugly.

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Speaker 1: The best and worst day will bear all the facets

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Speaker 1: of seizing your Yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah,

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Speaker 1: a lawyer turned fu entrepreneurshs walped the Suits and Heels

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Speaker 1: to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar.

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Speaker 3: CZA is a series.

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Speaker 1: Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring

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Speaker 1: the self doubt challenge, joy and fulfillment. Along the way,

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Speaker 1: I've discovered that the problem with being an excitable person

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Speaker 1: who always uses excitable language is that I leave no

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Speaker 1: superlatives in reserve for when something truly blows me away.

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Speaker 1: But I think most of Australia and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the world in fact, at least sixty million listeners, if

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Speaker 1: not more, will easily grasp why. I'm pinching myself that

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Speaker 1: our guest this week is none other than Headley Thomas,

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Speaker 1: national Chief correspondent for The Australian and creator of globally

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Speaker 1: acclaimed investigative podcasts The Teacher's Pet, Shandy Story, The Night

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Speaker 1: Driver and the currently ongoing Bronwin. Those sounds and his

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Speaker 1: delcet tones likely need no introduction, but I'll give it

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Speaker 1: my best shot. It's in my nature to find every

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Speaker 1: human and story interesting, and so I love all of

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Speaker 1: our guests on this show.

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Speaker 3: But I do have a.

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Speaker 1: Rolling list of dream guests who I never think I'll get,

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Speaker 1: and Headley Thomas has been one of those since twenty

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Speaker 1: eighteen when he literally changed the landscape of criminal and

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Speaker 1: cold case investigations with The Teacher's Pet, leading to the

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Speaker 1: murder conviction of Chris Dawson for the previously unsolved disappearance

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Speaker 1: of his wife Lynett Dawson in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 3: You all know that while.

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Speaker 1: On this show I'm all about the ya and bringing

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Speaker 1: the joy, my personal guilty pleasure has always been at

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Speaker 1: true crime and there is possibly no more influential person

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Speaker 1: in this space than Hedley. You can imagine how nervous

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Speaker 1: I was in a way I haven't been in a

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Speaker 1: long time to interview such such a renowned, articular Gold

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Speaker 1: Walkley Award winning journalist, wanting to do him justice, to

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Speaker 1: explore his incredible work, explore a bit of who he

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Speaker 1: is outside of that work, as you know we love

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Speaker 1: to do on this show. A father, a lover of cows,

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, a fan of white lotus, and

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Speaker 1: ask all my burning behind the scenes questions about the

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Speaker 1: Bronwin case and what it takes to solve long overlooked crimes. Basically,

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Speaker 1: we need a whole headly series on CZA and spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: there may be a follow up to this episode that

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Speaker 1: we're working on in the background, but for now, I

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Speaker 1: tried to whittle my questions down to things not exhaustively

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Speaker 1: covered elsewhere. So we do assume some baseline knowledge of

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Speaker 1: his cases and prior podcasts, and skate over much of

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Speaker 1: his fascinating pathway and all the chapters that came before podcasting,

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Speaker 1: which I highly recommend you go on research because it's

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Speaker 1: a fascinating journey. He's worked on so many incredible stories

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Speaker 1: in his career, and of course I'll include more links

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. I have so much more to say,

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Speaker 1: but I know you're all waiting to hear the voice

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Speaker 1: that so many of us know so well. I knew

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Speaker 1: Headley would be eloquent and fascinating, but I really didn't

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Speaker 1: expect him to be quite so humble and warm. We

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Speaker 1: actually even had a forty five minute debrief call the

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Speaker 1: next day when he was on a long drive to

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Speaker 1: a new lead in the Bronwin case, and he just

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Speaker 1: talks to you like you're an old friend. This was

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Speaker 1: truly such a life highlight for me, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that you guys all enjoy as much as I did.

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Speaker 3: Headley Thomas, welcome to Seize the A.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I'm sorry for my

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Speaker 2: technical stupidity in getting sorted at the start.

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Speaker 1: Not at all. I mean, I have to tell you. You know,

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Speaker 1: when people ask if you could have dinner with anyone

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Speaker 1: in the world, dead or alive, and people always say

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Speaker 1: Obama and Princess Diana, mother Teresa, I always say Headley Thomas.

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Speaker 3: So this is very surreal to me right now.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's very kind and it's surreal for me to

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Speaker 2: get that kind of feedback. I have to tell you,

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Speaker 2: my adult children think it's crazy when people sometime say,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I listened to all your dad's podcasts,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, yeah, we haven't caught up with them yet.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny that kids will always humble you so much,

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Speaker 1: and it's crazy to think that you have, like you

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Speaker 1: have children and a family and tell us what you

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Speaker 1: were doing when you first logged on. I thought you'd

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Speaker 1: be off doing something crazy, but it was such a

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Speaker 1: wholesome Monday morning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been up since very early helping my friend

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Speaker 2: Ken clear lantana. This introduced weed has been infesting our paddocks,

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Speaker 2: and my wife's gone to work, so I thought I'll

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Speaker 2: just go in there with the machete and the peak

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Speaker 2: and the maddic and pull out these clumps of lantana

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Speaker 2: to clear for the cows. We a couple of cows

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Speaker 2: and their pastor their grass is diminished when the lantana spread.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I've been doing this morning.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I mean, one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to do on this show is to zoom out from

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Speaker 1: people who we have parasocial relationships with. I think we

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Speaker 1: know quite well. But I'm sure that is not what

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Speaker 1: anyone thought you would be doing to starty your week.

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Speaker 1: And having said that, my answer was you about the

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Speaker 1: dinner question. I also always answer Headley Thomas when I'm

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Speaker 1: asked about in interviews about my favorite podcast or what

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Speaker 1: I'm binging. And I'm sure most of Australia, at least

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Speaker 1: most of the people I know, also answer that. But

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Speaker 1: You're probably the only person in Australia who would say

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Speaker 1: not Headley Thomas, given that that's you. So before we

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Speaker 1: get into the juice of today, to give us our

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Speaker 1: listener something else that they might not already know about you,

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Speaker 1: What does the great Headley Thomas listen to? Are you

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Speaker 1: a true crime listener yourself? Do you have a favorite podcast?

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Speaker 1: Do you binge TV?

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Speaker 2: I've been binging a bit of TV, actually, John, I

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Speaker 2: must admit that after I've listened to hours of draft

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Speaker 2: episodes of Now Bromwin and previously Shandy Story and my

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Speaker 2: other podcast. So when I've finished with that, I think

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Speaker 2: I just need a break from the audio. I do

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Speaker 2: listen to some history podcasts and I find some great

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Speaker 2: stuff about Australian history with the ABC and a couple

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Speaker 2: of independent podcasters, but mostly I look for escapism in

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Speaker 2: Netflix or Apple TV and Stan and all of them. Actually,

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Speaker 2: White Lotus has been no one captivating us lately. We

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Speaker 2: were recently in Thailand because we had our honeymoon in

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Speaker 2: Thailand thirty years ago, so we went back a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago for a wedding anniversary and our children joined

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Speaker 2: us there as well, and we went to the same

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Speaker 2: resort that we stayed in. We used to live in

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Speaker 2: Hong Kong and went from Hong Kong to Pouquet in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five when we were married, and you know,

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Speaker 2: White Lotus of course the latest season has been filmed

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Speaker 2: in Thailand, and then going back with our children now

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Speaker 2: almost twenty seven and twenty four and just thinking, gosh,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're still together and we're still really happy.

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Speaker 2: And my wife was a journalist and she's now a nurse,

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Speaker 2: and she's always been a fantastic supporter of everything I've done,

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Speaker 2: and our kids are fantastic too, so we feel very blessed. Well.

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Speaker 1: I love that you sort of spoke to that idea

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Speaker 1: of going back to a place where you were in

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Speaker 1: a chapter in your life that was, you know, before everything,

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Speaker 1: and reminiscing on that, because one thing I love about

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Speaker 1: podcasting is that every episode you do is like a

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Speaker 1: time capsule of the person that you were back at

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 3: So I would usually.

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Speaker 1: Start every episode by going back to your childhood to

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Speaker 1: young Headley to remind our listeners that everyone, even Walkley

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Speaker 1: Award winning National treasures like Headley Thomas starts somewhere, namely

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Speaker 1: as a copy boy at the Gold Coast Bulletin, and

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Speaker 1: I think we you might find this with your children,

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Speaker 1: that you know, there's an intense pressure today to find

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Speaker 1: your purpose and find success, but it's very normal to

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Speaker 1: not know where you'd end up. But this time I

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Speaker 1: have to actually start in the reverse. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I have to start in real time with Bronwyn because

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Speaker 1: you're in the middle of season three with some new

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Speaker 1: developments just this week that we'd shuffle this around for

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Speaker 1: so I'm not sure what you can tell us exactly,

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Speaker 1: but my first question really is how are you feeling

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Speaker 1: right now? What does it feel like when the cadence

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Speaker 1: of what you're working on ramps up?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, I feel that with the Bronwin investigation and the

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Speaker 2: information that has been discovered through the podcast and through

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Speaker 2: listeners getting in touch with me and with members of

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Speaker 2: Brombin's family, I really believe that we should be and

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Speaker 2: the police should be, at a tipping point in terms

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Speaker 2: of action, and that if there isn't action as a

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Speaker 2: result of what has come out, then there's something amiss

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Speaker 2: in our criminal justice system because in my view and

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Speaker 2: in the view of other very experienced people, including experienced

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Speaker 2: lawyers who have followed this evidence closely, there is a

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Speaker 2: serious injustice in Brumlin's case. It has been an injustice

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Speaker 2: for many years. There's potential to correct that injustice right

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Speaker 2: now because of new information and new evidence and new

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Speaker 2: witnesses who have come forward. And we wait to see

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Speaker 2: whether the authorities and by that I mean the police

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Speaker 2: and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions will

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Speaker 2: do what we believe is the right thing here and

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Speaker 2: if they do not, then I think there should be

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Speaker 2: very serious and searching answers coming forward from those agencies

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Speaker 2: in terms of why not. You know, it won't be

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Speaker 2: good enough that they just did a bat it and

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Speaker 2: say nothing, because we need some accountability. If there's going

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Speaker 2: to be nil action from here, I'll be and the family,

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Speaker 2: more importantly, Bromwan's family will be deeply disappointed. A by

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Speaker 2: wanting wanting explanations, I mean.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back to the sort of impact of investigative

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Speaker 1: podcast and a lot of what you have to say

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Speaker 1: and how you've shaped the relationship between the media and

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Speaker 1: the police and the authorities in criminal investigations. But I'm

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Speaker 1: going to assume a lot of our listeners are up

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Speaker 1: to date with the Bronwin podcast. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: waste too much time on what they can catch up

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Speaker 1: on elsewhere. But just quickly, you're investigating the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: Bronwin Winfield in nineteen ninety three, and it took her

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Speaker 1: husband eleven days to report her as missing and she's

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Speaker 1: never been found. I think we're at episode thirty and

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Speaker 1: actually later today, I think it'll be episode thirty one

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Speaker 1: of what you thought would only be six to eight episodes,

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Speaker 1: and we're currently waiting on a very important determination submitted

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Speaker 1: by Bromwin's brother Andy to the State Coroner about potentially

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Speaker 1: where her body may be, So can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 3: And we we're up to yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: We're at a point where we seek from the State

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Speaker 2: corner of New South Wales a determination after Andy wrote

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Speaker 2: to her and it was about a nine page letter

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Speaker 2: drafted by a very experienced lawyer who has dealt at

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Speaker 2: length with coronial investigations in the past for the Australian government.

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Speaker 2: And Andy's letter asked the coroner to please use her

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Speaker 2: powers to perform a search of a property in the

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Speaker 2: Southerland Shire where Andy has grown up, in a place

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Speaker 2: called Illawong. And that is because at a certain address

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Speaker 2: in Illowog. And we haven't revealed the address in the

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Speaker 2: podcast because we don't want to bring unnecessary distress to

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Speaker 2: the current residence. But almost thirty two years ago that

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Speaker 2: address in Illawong was a building site for a family home.

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Speaker 2: John was working as the brick lay on that site.

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Speaker 2: His boss was a builder called Glenn Webster, and Glenn

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Speaker 2: would end up living in that house with his family

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Speaker 2: after it was completed. The reason we're very suspicious of

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Speaker 2: that building site is because John made a very hasty

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Speaker 2: overnight trip from lennox Head. John Winfield, being the husband

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Speaker 2: of Bromwin and being a person who knew that he

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Speaker 2: and Bromwin had split up, he wanted to do everything

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Speaker 2: in his power to retain control of their house in

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Speaker 2: lenox Head, near Banana. But when Bromwyn, according to John,

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Speaker 2: left the house that night, John packed his children up,

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Speaker 2: threw a few things in the car and made an

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Speaker 2: overnight drive from lenox Head to Sydney, about a nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven hour drive. It was highly unusual. It appeared

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Speaker 2: to be what lawyers regard as flight, as in just urgent,

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Speaker 2: unexplained almost fleeing a scene. The police believe that John

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Speaker 2: was fleeing a crime scene. John has always denied wrongdoing.

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Speaker 2: The police position is that John probably murdered Bromwin in

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Speaker 2: the house that night. That's what it comes down to.

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Speaker 2: That's the allegation that John has always denied, and the

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Speaker 2: strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial evidence

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Speaker 2: that we've found, is that there is I think a

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Speaker 2: reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle in

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Speaker 2: the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and that John went to the building site which would

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Speaker 2: have been deserted on the Monday, which was the seventeenth

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Speaker 2: of May nineteen ninety three, and right where two areas

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Speaker 2: were being prepared for the pouring of concrete slabs, a

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Speaker 2: patio area and a garage area. John, if this theory holds,

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Speaker 2: has put Bromwin's body beneath the reinforcing steel that goes

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Speaker 2: down and the plastic just before the concrete goes down.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons we're really suspicious, well, there's two

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Speaker 2: in particular that are reliably new. I was told by

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Speaker 2: an informant who saw John on the Monday and he

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Speaker 2: was very flustered. He driven overnight and he said that

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Speaker 2: he had to be back for a concrete poor, a

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Speaker 2: concrete poor in the Shire. Another reason is because we

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Speaker 2: found documents from the Southern Shire Council, the council that

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Speaker 2: was responsible for building approvals and for inspections of building

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Speaker 2: sites when they were due to get a concrete poor

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Speaker 2: and at different stages of the construction of a house.

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Speaker 2: We found documents that showed that the council's inspectors had

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Speaker 2: come out just days before Bromwin had disappeared to inspect

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Speaker 2: the pre poor site and give the green light for

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Speaker 2: the concrete pour to occur. So the concrete pour must

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Speaker 2: have occurred within days of that and John has rushed back,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't need to be at a concrete pour.

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Speaker 2: Glenn Webster has confirmed that there was no need for John,

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Speaker 2: as the brick layer, to have been involved in the

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Speaker 2: concrete poor. There is also some timing issues in terms

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Speaker 2: of John's whereabouts, and his movements for several hours on

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Speaker 2: the Monday were not explained. When he was interviewed by

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Speaker 2: the police, he left out some crucial details that could

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Speaker 2: have led police to question more closely what he was

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Speaker 2: doing in the afternoon, and he left out the fact,

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Speaker 2: for example, that he took his two daughters to his

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Speaker 2: ex wife's house and left his two daughters there for

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Speaker 2: several hours and.

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Speaker 1: With her mother in law who they never met, wasn't it, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is very unusual.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I have clearly been following along with my whiteboard in

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Speaker 1: the office.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you're right on it.

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Speaker 2: So we don't say and I believe that you know,

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Speaker 2: we've taken this as far as we can in terms

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Speaker 2: of how we've described the circumstances in Elolong. We don't

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Speaker 2: say that Bromwin must be there, but it's a site

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Speaker 2: that should have been searched. The detective Glenn Taylor, who

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Speaker 2: did more work than anyone else through the investigation of

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Speaker 2: what happened to Bromwin, Glenn Taylor, he says very clearly

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Speaker 2: that if he had known what we have found at

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Speaker 2: the time of his investigation, he would have gone to

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Speaker 2: the coroner and requested that that site be searched, and

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Speaker 2: he believes that the coroner would have granted him the order.

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Speaker 2: There's a few other details, including that one of Crystal's

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Speaker 2: friends has described how Crystal told her that her father,

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Speaker 2: John said, do not look in the boot under any circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Do not open the boot. Now you know these sorts

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Speaker 2: of details. They are concerning, and John didn't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of time. If the coroner's view that Bromwin died

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Speaker 2: on the night of Sunday is true is correct, he

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Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of time to dispose of a body. Now,

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Speaker 2: it's really difficult talking about it in these terms because

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Speaker 2: it sounds like we have absolutely made up our minds

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Speaker 2: that John must have done it, and he still has

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Speaker 2: as a presumption of innocence. So it's a really tricky

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Speaker 2: thing to describe in these terms, and I have to

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Speaker 2: keep stressing that John has denied wrongdoing. He's never been

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Speaker 2: charged with anything. Although a coroner has recommended that there

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Speaker 2: be a prosecution of John Winfield by the Office of

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Speaker 2: the DPP, that hasn't happened. There is nobody and there's

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Speaker 2: no forensic evidence that connects John to his wife's disappearance

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Speaker 2: and suspected murder.

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Speaker 4: Having said all of that.

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Speaker 2: There are powerful, circumstantial pieces of evidence that in our view,

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Speaker 2: demand new attention from the Office of the DPP, because

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Speaker 2: it does, when it's all put together, make for a

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Speaker 2: very compelling case.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I get sort of the same goosebumps,

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Speaker 1: the similarities at a certain time in lynd Dawson in

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Speaker 1: the teacher's pat's investigation of where you weren't drawing conclusions necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but you were uncovering things that were missed originally and

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Speaker 1: looking at under concrete and it's more eliminating possibilities rather

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Speaker 1: than necessarily saying what did happen. It's exploring things that

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Speaker 1: weren't investigated at the time, and again a missing woman

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Speaker 1: with decades in between. It's just overwhelming the power of

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Speaker 1: what you've been able to do to fill gaps that

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Speaker 1: were not investigated at the time. And I think, as

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Speaker 1: you said, it is a tipping point. Waiting for this

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Speaker 1: determination about whether or not you can proceed to eliminate

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Speaker 1: this particular site will be a huge new step in

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Speaker 1: where you're at. But I'd also love to just while

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Speaker 1: we wait on that, zoom out a little bit to

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Speaker 1: go behind the scenes and see the stuff that probably

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Speaker 1: listeners to Bronwan don't see as much, which is in

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Speaker 1: between all these episodes. What does your life look like

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Speaker 1: mid season? So, as you mentioned, you are sort of

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Speaker 1: eliminating options that weren't investigated. You are You're not in

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Speaker 1: an office typing, you're draining lakes. You're wrapping colleagues in

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Speaker 1: sheets to investigate the body in the boot and the timing.

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Speaker 1: And someone asked, I think in the listener episode you

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Speaker 1: did recently, do you have whiteboards and pieces of string

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Speaker 1: tying them together? How are you organizing your information? I

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Speaker 1: know it's not a full time team, so you know,

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Speaker 1: I hear Claire Harvey's voice on the front every day

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Speaker 1: on other materials, I'm like, how is her brain even

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Speaker 1: dealing with the multiapasceted things that you guys are all doing,

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Speaker 1: so you know, you're turning around episodes in real time,

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Speaker 1: Like whats are behind the scenes of building Bronwen right now?

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Speaker 2: Look Like yeah, Look, it can be pretty intense at times.

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Speaker 2: And it's only because I'm going to be fifty eight

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Speaker 2: in you know, month and a half, I have had

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Speaker 2: a lot of experience writing under pressure and with deadlines,

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Speaker 2: and just because I've been a journalist for you know,

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Speaker 2: pretty much the best part of four years, I think

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Speaker 2: that I've been able to manage the stresses that would

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Speaker 2: ordinarily be just overwhelming in a way that makes us

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Speaker 2: able to knit together and every week still be able

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Speaker 2: to produce the episode. And my small but perfectly formed

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Speaker 2: team of colleagues, you know, we all come together in

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Speaker 2: such a I would say, cooperative and practical and good

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Speaker 2: humored way. And they're not working with me full time,

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Speaker 2: but when I need support, you know, they are there.

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Speaker 2: They step in and I sort of sometimes think, well,

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Speaker 2: if we had a much bigger team, if we had

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Speaker 2: more time, would we get better results, would there be

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Speaker 2: a better production, And perhaps there would be, or maybe

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Speaker 2: there's something in the fact that you know you give

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Speaker 2: your best when you're under pressure, when there's only a

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Speaker 2: limited amount of time left. You've got to write ten

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Speaker 2: thousand words in a day and a half get it produced,

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Speaker 2: and that's when you know that your brain is really

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Speaker 2: firing and you can give your roll. You're exhausted as

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Speaker 2: well because it is grueling and demanding stuff, and then

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Speaker 2: you're very paranoid at times that you're going to make mistakes.

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Speaker 2: And I've become a bit of a stickler for the

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Speaker 2: detail and making sure that everything is factually right. I

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Speaker 2: hate it when there's something wrong or something that might

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Speaker 2: have been misunderstood. And I feel like the way we've

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Speaker 2: all worked together and the quality of my colleagues and

389
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Speaker 2: the professionalism means that we make very very few mistakes.

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Speaker 2: If we do make an error and it's discovered, a

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Speaker 2: listen might point out something, or we'll realize after the fact,

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Speaker 2: we fix it and re release the episode. It might

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Speaker 2: mean snipping a line or narrating a new line, but

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Speaker 2: we just try and fix it up and so if

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Speaker 2: it's wrong, it's not wrong.

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Speaker 4: For long.

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Speaker 2: I feel that I've got just such a rare opportunity

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Speaker 2: to make a potential difference thanks to the support I

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Speaker 2: get from my friends and colleagues, the listenership that wants

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Speaker 2: to help people who've come out of the woodwork with

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Speaker 2: great ideas and offers to be involved, offers to apply

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Speaker 2: their own knowledge or information they've gleaned from their job,

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Speaker 2: their profession, People who would happily work for free to

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Speaker 2: help solve these cases and make a difference. And you think, gosh,

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Speaker 2: that's amazing. I mean, how lucky are we? And I

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Speaker 2: get many many emails from people. It takes me sometimes

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Speaker 2: a little while to apply to everybody, but I do

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Speaker 2: try to apply to everyon so that you know, I

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Speaker 2: can thank them for the help that they offer and

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Speaker 2: often take it up because it is a big help.

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Speaker 1: Well, Hadlee, I actually started out as a commercial lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but criminal law was always my sort of pro bono passion.

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Speaker 1: And if you had been in podcasting back then, I

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Speaker 1: might have been another carena volunteering her time with you,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps I would have lasted.

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Speaker 3: Longer in the law.

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Speaker 1: And yet here we are two podcasters with two gold

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Speaker 1: Walkleys between us, both being yours, but there is still

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Speaker 1: an average one age. But one thing I think that

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Speaker 1: is really interesting just coming back to the impact of

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Speaker 1: what you're doing and the ability to make a difference,

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Speaker 1: which you have well and truly shown that you have

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Speaker 1: actually changed the course. I mean the Teachers pet changed

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Speaker 1: the course not only of Lynn Dawson or Lynette Sims

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Speaker 1: and her family and Chris Dawson and the result of

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Speaker 1: that case, but really the face of crime reporting and

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Speaker 1: you know, cold cases Australia, white and worldwide. But you know,

428
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Speaker 1: we often say on this show, you might end up

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Speaker 1: in a job that you didn't even know existed, and

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Speaker 1: that's part of the path where you don't need to

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Speaker 1: know how things end up when you begin. When you

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Speaker 1: won your first gold Walkley, the word podcast had only

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Speaker 1: been coined like maybe two and a half years before that,

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Speaker 1: so I'm sure you had no idea that this would

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Speaker 1: end up and you've almost created the industry that you're in.

436
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: This you called it crime reporting in a recent episode,

437
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: but I actually think it's crime solving. You've gone beyond

438
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: just sitting reporting what's happening to actually getting into the

439
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: guts of a case and filling gaps. Really in whole investigations.

440
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: Trailblazers in an industry like that often face a lot

441
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: of skepticism. Now it's easy to say, look at the

442
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: teacher's pet.

443
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: Look what we did.

444
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure the cases like Bronwyn are coming up and

445
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: the resources are coming you know, they're free flowing now

446
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: the support of the Australian of Harvey Norman was it

447
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: a really hard sell the first time.

448
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: I was passionate about investigating what happened to Lynn Dawson,

449
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: who we now refer to as Lynn Simms. And because

450
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: of the support that my editor in chief in the

451
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: past had given me with good results, he understood how

452
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: much I believed in this case and I made a

453
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: very powerful submission as to why we should dedicate months

454
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: of my time full time to it and also all

455
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: of the resources that it would require in terms of

456
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: other staff. But you know, it was a risky thing

457
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: for us to take on at the time because we

458
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: didn't know what the outcomes would be, except that we

459
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: knew there would be eye watering legal bills.

460
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: And it doesn't surprise me.

461
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: They continued for years because after Chris Dawson was charged

462
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: with his wife's murder, both Chris Dawson's legal defense team

463
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: and the officer that Republic Prosecutions wanted to have an

464
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: insight into all of my correspondents and my emails and

465
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: text messages with people involved in the case, as well

466
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: as more than one hundred gigabytes of audio and other

467
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: material that was on my laptop, So all the interviews

468
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: that I'd done and interviews that I'd attempted to do,

469
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: and you know, probably more than one hundred hours of material.

470
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 4: I don't know.

471
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: I've never actually added up the duration. I felt sorry

472
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: for the poor people who had to listen to it all, because,

473
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 2: as you know, you could record for two hours and

474
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: maybe only use ten minutes of audio from an interview.

475
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the people who did get to listen probably

476
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: felt like they got the director's cut of the Teacher's

477
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: Pet podcast. I wouldn't listened to all that extra material.

478
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: I'd do it for free.

479
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 4: That's really cool, that's very cold.

480
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: We took enormous risks, no question, we went out on

481
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: a limb a very long way, and I was criticized

482
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: by some in the legal profession and certainly by at

483
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: least one judge who heard Chris Dawson's application for the

484
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: whole process to be permanently canceled stayed as the legal term,

485
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: and his argument was that he couldn't get a fair trial,

486
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: that I had also, with all of my interviews, effectively

487
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: contaminated Crown witnesses so that their versions of the evidence

488
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: couldn't be relied upon. He also argued that the police

489
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: investigations were so sloppy and had missed so much material

490
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: early on that he wouldn't be able to prove his innocence.

491
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: He wouldn't be able to demonstrate his innocence. He had

492
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: all of these arguments running, and I thought, well, we've

493
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: got to get through so many barriers as part of

494
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: his application before there's even a murder trial. We have

495
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: to effectively go on trial ourselves and demonstrate that we

496
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: didn't contaminate witnesses. That it is perfectly appropriate after the

497
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: disappearance of a woman who's suspected by two coroners to

498
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: have been murdered, and if nothing has happened, and the

499
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: criminal justice system hasn't responded in the way that we

500
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: believe it should have been, it is perfectly appropriate for

501
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: investigative journalism to step in. Who else is going to

502
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: the family had run out of options. This case looked

503
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: like it should have been dealt with many, many years ago,

504
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: and in our view, it was disgraceful that the police

505
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: hadn't done a better job early on, and that others

506
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: hadn't been able to pick up the pieces for many

507
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: years later. So I feel that we had to stare

508
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: down the criticism and try to explain from the perspective

509
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: of the expectations of victims of crime, and also the

510
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: duties of journalism to shine a light on crimes that

511
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: have been unsolved and cases that might still have a

512
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: chance if we're able to apply the podcasting techniques and

513
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: investigative techniques to try to draw new witnesses who hadn't

514
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 2: spoken before out, and then the police could interview those witnesses.

515
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: The contaminated witness argument that Chris Dawson ran fell over

516
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: In the end. The judge who heard this day application

517
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: said that he could get a fair trial, and his

518
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: own lawyers ultimately made no submission that any of the

519
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: witnesses had been contaminated. But it was a rough period

520
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: and I didn't know which way it would go, and

521
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: I would be lying if I said I was unconcerned.

522
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: I was really concerned because I felt that if we

523
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: fell over at this point, if Chris Dawson's day application succeeded,

524
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: then it would be not just a terrible blow to

525
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: Lynn's family and loved ones and all the people who

526
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: help me, it would be a major setback for investigative

527
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: podcast journalism by others, by younger and also experienced journalists

528
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: who wanted to do more of what I had started

529
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: to do. Would they be able to would they get

530
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: the support of their news organizations. If this effectively campaign

531
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: that we ran in the Teacher's pet ended up being

532
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: condemned and led to the charges against Chris Dawson being terminated,

533
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: it was a difficult time.

534
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I would call that sort of the great

535
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: cost of bravery, or of the cost of being the

536
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: first to do something in the face of great obstacles

537
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: and traditional legal institutions and media institutions, and the skepticism

538
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: that you face, and extrapolating that for our listeners, not

539
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: all of whom are probably operating at your level of

540
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: influence in a global wave that involves the legal system.

541
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: So intimately, I think we all do face moments of

542
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: doubt externally, internally, moments of extreme obstacles to doing anything

543
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: new and different, and that's part of getting outside your

544
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: comfort zone and making change. But it has come at

545
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: an extreme personal cost to you. And I used the

546
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: word bravery because I think it is extraordinarily brave that

547
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: you have taken the weight of investigative journalism as a whole,

548
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: and you've faced gunshots in your house and death threats.

549
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: It's not just sort of trolling and haters, but it's

550
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: personal safety. It's extreme hostility from people in the public

551
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: who are invested in this, and also probably people who

552
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: aren't invested in it and still just for whatever reason,

553
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: placing judgment on you as a person. Have you ever

554
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: wanted to give up? I mean, I know you even

555
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: you left journalism sort of in two thousand and eight.

556
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean this was before the Teacher's Pet chapter. But

557
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: in your career facing barriers like that, have you ever

558
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: wanted to give up? Have you ever been sort of

559
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: overcome by the negativity of the subject matter domestic violence,

560
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: the moral quandaries that come with the truth.

561
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: The closest I've ever come to leaving journalism was in

562
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: late two thousand and two, early two thousand and three,

563
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: and it was after the shooting at our family home

564
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: in Brisbane, my children were threatened, my wife was traumatized.

565
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: I was in I think a state of shock and

566
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: then ended up having post traumatic stress from it. And

567
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: you know, I felt that up to that point I

568
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: had been striving really hard with investigative stories and important.

569
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 4: Cases that needed to be.

570
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: Aired, and then an unknown government put four bullets into

571
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: our family home. And we lived in a rural part

572
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 2: of Brisbane semi rule, and it was a knight, and

573
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: the bullets could have caused a killing. I mean, the

574
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: person who fired them was not shooting at us in

575
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, he couldn't see us in the house.

576
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: He just wanted or she who knows, just wanted to

577
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: put four bullets into the home. But you know, one

578
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: of those bullets went through the bedroom window. Our bedroom

579
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: window just have been less than thirty centimeters over my

580
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: wife's pillow. We were in bed, and another bullet went

581
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: into the children's toy room. Now they were asleep, they

582
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: woke up. My daughter woke up screaming because of the noise.

583
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: And then for weeks afterwards, the police were making multiple

584
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: investigations and inquiries and following up people who were featured

585
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: in some of the stories that I'd been writing at

586
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: the time, and they were stumped. They had no idea

587
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: because the list of potential suspects was long. I gave

588
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: them some idea, probably just made things even harder for them,

589
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: because I don't know whether I was on the money

590
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: or not. But for a long time afterwards, I couldn't

591
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: actually manage my own emotions when people would ask me

592
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: about that shooting, and I would have what I later

593
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: understood was a sort of a PTSD response, where you know,

594
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: if you had asked me in say January two thousand

595
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 2: and three, a few months after the shooting, if we

596
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: were having a chat and you started talking to me

597
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: about the shooting, you would see me here and I'd

598
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: still be trying to talk to you, but my eyes

599
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: would be streaming tears and they would just be rolling

600
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: down and I wouldn't be able to turn it off.

601
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: It'd just be like this water works event. It was

602
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 2: embarrassing and really distressing, and it happened in interviews and

603
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: social events, in work meetings if somebody just asked me

604
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: a direct question about the shooting, and suddenly the brain

605
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: just goes into this unusual stress response, and I would

606
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: just start streaming and I just would have to excuse

607
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: myself and I didn't know how that was going to end,

608
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: would it resolve? And I got some help, and that

609
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: help was instrumental in making sure that I remained in

610
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: journalism and with my family, got through it, recovered, stayed

611
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: in our own home, so we didn't let you know

612
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: whoever had done this evil act defeat house. Our children

613
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: loved where we lived, and we loved where we lived.

614
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: We'd only been there a few years, having moved back

615
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 2: from Hong Kong in nineteen ninety nine, and I think

616
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: that was important. I think that we had to stay

617
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: and stare down the risk and the challenge. But yeah,

618
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: I definitely through the low points before I got some

619
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: psychological support, good advice on how to deal with things.

620
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: That was when I could have left journalism and stayed

621
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:06,959
Speaker 2: out of journalism.

622
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, coming back to the idea that no

623
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: pathway is linear or without twists and turns and backward steps,

624
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: and I mean, in this case trauma and a great

625
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: personal cost to you to continue the work that you're doing.

626
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: It does just highlight that it's not easy for you

627
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: to be doing something so impactful. But I love hearing

628
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: about you speak about what it means to know the

629
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: impact of what you're doing. That you have gone from yeah,

630
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: not knowing what podcasting really was when you were still,

631
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, quite far into your career to now, I

632
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: mean it's millions and millions of listeners, to just this

633
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: season alone, brand new witnesses, Judy Singh coming out of

634
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: the woodwork that would never have been uncovered without you,

635
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: and really unleashing the power of an investigative tool for

636
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: society that was not there. The police resources cannot uncover

637
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: everything that the power of the media and the Internet

638
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: and the platforms that you have can now, just coming

639
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: back to a personal connection for you, I think I

640
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: read that your own grandmother had gone missing. Do you

641
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: think that that would have been different if podcasting and

642
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: investigative journalism had been around back then?

643
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a really interesting question. I haven't been asked

644
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 2: that question before, and I hadn't even thought about it.

645
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, Hadley, I think I can retire now. I

646
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: was so desperate to ask you something you had never

647
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: been asked, and I thought that's going to be impossible for.

648
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: I can stop recording now.

649
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: I'm good yeah, I mean, you know, it kind of

650
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: would tick the boxes in many ways for sorts of

651
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: cases that I look at. And it's diffical for me

652
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: to talk about it because I adored my father, who

653
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: died in twenty seve seventeen, and I didn't talk a

654
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 2: lot to my dad about the disappearance of his mum

655
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: because I knew that it could upset him. He loved

656
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: his mum and he grew up on Sydney's Northern Beaches,

657
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: not too far from where Lynn disappeared. My grandmother disappeared

658
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six from the family home. Her night

659
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: dress was found on the beach at d Y. I

660
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: have a little clipping from the Sydney Morning Herald that

661
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: describes the disappearance and quotes a police officers saying that

662
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: this piece of clothing had been found.

663
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 4: On the sand.

664
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: My grandmother had some mental health issues. I believe it

665
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: must have been depression, and she was suspected to have

666
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: swum through the breakers at d Y and just kept

667
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: swimming until she drowned. No trace of her has ever

668
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 2: been recovered, but I know that my dad for many

669
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: years looked in crowds, and this is what people who

670
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: have lost a loved one. Do do I believe that

671
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: there was foul play involved in my grandmother's disappearance. I've

672
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: been asked that question, and I do not believe that

673
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: there was. But I'm fairly sure that if it hadn't

674
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: been for that event in my own family, my father's life,

675
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: I would not have felt the affinity, and I don't

676
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 2: think I would have had the same kind of almost

677
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 2: mission or zeal to do the Teacher's Pet. I don't

678
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: think I would have had the understanding of what it

679
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: means for people like lyn, sister Pat Jenkins, and brother

680
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: Greg Simms, and all the other amazing members of Lynn's

681
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: family who helped me. I wouldn't have understood the ambiguous

682
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: loss that people have when someone disappears without explanation. And

683
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: I didn't disclose in the Teacher's Pet or anywhere in

684
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 2: any media interviews what had happened in my own family

685
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: because I felt that it wasn't really well, it wasn't

686
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: at all relevant to what I was investigating in relation

687
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: to Lynn. But it was this very powerful force, a

688
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: private force for me, and it was I think at

689
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 2: times propelling me. And I wasn't vicariously investigating my grandmother's disappearance,

690
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: but I was revisiting places that my dad and my

691
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 2: mother went to, and while I was running around the

692
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 2: Northern Beaches talking to Lynn's friends and trying to catch

693
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: up with former school students of Chroma High and going

694
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: to Bayview and so on, I felt like I was,

695
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: in the same year that my dad died, connecting with

696
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 2: him and my own grandmother through This sounds a bit weird,

697
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 2: but I just felt like that I was making a

698
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 2: bit of a connection while investigating an evil act and

699
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: at the same time reflecting on my dad's life and

700
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: my grandmother's life. And I kept the two things separate

701
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: in terms of the story until I wrote a book

702
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: called The Teacher's Pet that was released in late twenty

703
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: twenty three, and I went into what had happened there.

704
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: There was a little bit of seepage in so far

705
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: as in an email that I had written, a private

706
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: email that I had written to Rebecca Hazel, who was

707
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: helping me with the Teacher's Pet investigation. You know, I

708
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: had mentioned that because Rebecca was a great support and

709
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: help and we became really good friends and we remained

710
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: great friends, and I just disclosed to Rebecca this event

711
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: in my family's history that I felt gave me a

712
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: better insight into some of the things that were going on.

713
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: That email was turned over. I had to turn it

714
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: over to Chris Dawson and his lawyers, and his lawyers

715
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: were one of them, no doubt, on instructions, copied that

716
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: email and released it to journalists during one of the

717
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 2: preliminary court appearances, and spoke to journalists about how this

718
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: event was somehow newsworthy and fortunately it didn't really get

719
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: much traction, but it is, to be fair, a pivotal

720
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: event in my family's history that has unquestionably made a

721
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: difference to the way I perceive these cases and what

722
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: I want to do and how I try to go

723
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: about them. And I have written and I have said

724
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: before that I'm pretty confident if it had not been

725
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: for the disappearance of my father's mother, I don't know

726
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: whether I would have done. I don't believe I would

727
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: have done what I've done. And I suspect that the

728
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: memory of what happened or not the memory of what

729
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: happened I didn't I don't know what really happened, but

730
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: the knowledge that that had happened somehow helped me do

731
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: those eighteen twenty hour days and back up for another

732
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: one and another one, another one who gave me extra

733
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: stamina and that allowed me to push through.

734
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that, Hadley.

735
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 3: It's funny.

736
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: I think we always talk on this show about in

737
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: much less probably deep episodes, just the idea that people's

738
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: journeys the dots always connect in a funny way. And

739
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: I think this is your version of those dots connecting

740
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: to me, and you ended up exactly where you were

741
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,959
Speaker 1: supposed to, even if perhaps you didn't know that that's

742
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: where you would end up when you began. And your

743
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: extraordinary empathy that your person no connection to having missing persons,

744
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: that you bring to the podcast, I think does allow

745
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: listeners who have no connection whatsoever to that kind of

746
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: story or experience to get a small taste of what

747
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: that feels like in a way that we can't have,

748
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: we have never experienced in any other kind of documentary

749
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 1: or journalistic piece, which makes people want to come forward

750
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: with evidence they have. I think it's created something that

751
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: wasn't there before, which is truly extraordinary, And that brings

752
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: me to one of my last questions for you. We

753
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: talk a lot on this show about the definition of success.

754
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: There's so much fixation I mentioned at the beginning, so

755
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: much fixation on being successful and fame and wealth and

756
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: the way that it often changes throughout your life what

757
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: that means to you. And I think your definition would

758
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: probably be different to any other guest we've had eight

759
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: Walkley's two gold I don't even need to ask you

760
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: to know that that's probably not why you're in this

761
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: or what your definition of success is.

762
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: What is it for you?

763
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: And if you don't get an answer or solve this

764
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: case with Bronwyn, I mean, in the Dawson case, I

765
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 1: think there was a very very successful result. What if

766
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: you don't get that result here, how you feel in

767
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: terms of success?

768
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'll it's the first part first, because for me,

769
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: success is about trying to achieve results, trying to right

770
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: the wrongs and reverse the injustices and expose the appalling

771
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 2: failures and the wrongdoers wherever possible. And also I hope

772
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: that you know that is a legacy that will be

773
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: something that other people will say I might be able

774
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 2: to do that, and I can do it better and

775
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: if I have more resources picking up the model that

776
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: Hedley was doing, then maybe we can change more of

777
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: these cases for the so leaving something behind. I'd hate

778
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: to have had a career in journalism where at the

779
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 2: end of it and then you know, I've sort of

780
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: prepared to go into retirement. I've looked back and thought,

781
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 2: did I do forty years of journalism or forty five

782
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: years of journalism and make no difference, or did some

783
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: people benefit from some of the journalism at least some

784
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: of the journalism that I've done, And so that's part

785
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: of the motivation. I think that you can do that

786
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: if you are true to yourself and if you have

787
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: the support of colleagues and an employer who allows you

788
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: to really push the boundaries. And pushing the boundaries as

789
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 2: we have done in these investigations means taking big legal

790
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: risks that can be costly and require a lot of

791
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 2: courage of the organization that is sponsoring me. And in

792
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: terms of how I would feel if the Bromin investigation

793
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 2: really goes nowhere in so far as the police and

794
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: the DPP is concerned, I mean, I would just feel

795
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: bitterly disappointed for Bromwin's brother and sister and good friends

796
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: and others who have pinned their hopes on something changing here.

797
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: But more than that, I think that I would, and

798
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: I hope many listeners would be demanding answers as to

799
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: why it doesn't go forward. Some people have a right

800
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,919
Speaker 2: to be angry if it doesn't go forward, because there

801
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: is in our system a reasonable expectation that strong evidence.

802
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 2: Even in a case that'll be thirty two years old

803
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: next month, that's strong evidence, new evidence as well. It

804
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 2: takes a case further really should motivate those who make

805
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: decisions about what to do with the case that a

806
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: Curner recommended should be prosecuted, and that was back in

807
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: two thousand and two. You know that responsibility remains, it

808
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: doesn't go away, and that's what happened in Chris Dawson's

809
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: case as well. So I hope that that people won't

810
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: give up and persistence does pay off. You don't just

811
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: stop because the story has come to its end. I

812
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: feel that there's still more that can be done. And

813
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to be almost like an obsessive.

814
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: Crank in terms of we're all very grateful that you

815
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: are an obsessive crank.

816
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 3: It's done wonderful.

817
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 4: Things the world. It will be stubbornly determined to keep going. Yeah.

818
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it is quite an unusual position to be

819
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: in life where your job really is something that you

820
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: started thinking it would be eight episodes long, and you

821
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: actually don't know how long you're going to be on this.

822
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: You don't know where it's going to go. That uncertainty

823
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: is quite unique and fascinating and exciting and overwhelming in

824
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: so many things all at once. But knowing every day

825
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: that you're on it is impactful in a way that's

826
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: gotten further than the original investigation ever did.

827
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: Is incredible.

828
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: I could do three seasons of Headley, the Man, the Myth,

829
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 1: the Legend. I wish I had as much time as

830
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: would allowed to ask all the questions I have for you,

831
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: But I will finish on one that comes back to

832
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: the title of this podcast, that sees the yay. We

833
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: talk a lot about the meaning of success, but then

834
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: more importantly the meaning of joy and what brings you

835
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 1: yay in your life and being involved. Twenty four seven

836
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: and I'm sure even when you're not working on your

837
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 1: mind is a very heavy case of a disappearance, potentially

838
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 1: a murder, talking about bodies.

839
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 3: Where do you mind?

840
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 4: Joy?

841
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: In your life in the midst of that kind of

842
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: subject matter. I know there's a lot of humor in

843
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: the team, and you guys are great at lifting.

844
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 3: Each other up.

845
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: How do you And for anyone else listening who does

846
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: work in sort of a heavy field, how do you

847
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: find yay?

848
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: I get yay from a couple of really simple things,

849
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: and to spring to mind, because I've been getting the

850
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: ya from those over the last twenty four hours. Filma

851
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: and Louise beautiful cows.

852
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I thought you meant actual Velma and

853
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: Lloyd's the cows.

854
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 3: I love cows. Oh my gosh, that's the best.

855
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 4: Cows are the best looking.

856
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: The coastal track cows of the Sunshine Beach to Loosa

857
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: heads with my wife as we did yesterday morning.

858
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 4: That was awesome.

859
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: And Okay, here's another pleasure that takes little effort. Body

860
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 2: surfing a nice wave at Noos Sir Or Main Beach

861
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast where I lived as a teenager.

862
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: Just taking off on that wave and getting slightly rolled

863
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: and dumb then.

864
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 4: Jump from back up.

865
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: It makes you feel like you're fourteen again.

866
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 4: And I love doing that stuff.

867
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Hedley, what an amazing way to finish

868
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: a wonderful answer. I am so grateful for your time,

869
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 1: knowing that you are in the thick of the investigation

870
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: and we will be all I mean Australia, the world

871
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: will be following so closely with what happens. It's funny

872
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I heard in one of the episodes talking about how

873
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: you're famous, someone said on a plane to you that

874
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: women around the world go to sleep. They go to

875
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: bed with Headley Thomas every night, which is true. That

876
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: must be surreal, but we will continue to do so.

877
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: Your poor wife, my wife.

878
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 4: Has some head shaking moment.

879
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: The sultry tones of Headley Thomas. You should do like

880
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: a sleep audio book or something.

881
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: I've actually thought about that.

882
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 2: I've wondered whether that could be my post podcast career,

883
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 2: doing voiceovers or even endorsements for a mattress.

884
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 4: Make it means I got so many people in this belief.

885
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 1: You know, people instantly anywhere in the world, anywhere on

886
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: any screen. If I heard your voice, we'd know, You'd know.

887
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: I'd be like, is that Headly Thomas in Italy selling Fanta?

888
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: Like we know it was you from miles and miles away.

889
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: It could be my part time manager on something like

890
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: that and giving a few geeks.

891
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 3: I would love that you just wait.

892
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 4: Let's seal the deal at one of your dinner party.

893
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 3: Yes, it sounds wonderful.

894
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Headley, and thank you for everything

895
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: that you are doing for for I mean really women everywhere,

896
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 1: being the father of daughters, changing the landscape for women

897
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: who go missing and face real injustice at the hands

898
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: of the system and people around them.

899
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: Thank you for everything.

900
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 2: Thank you for you very empathic and insightful questioning, and

901
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 2: it's been my pleasure.

902
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: I just loved every minute of this chat, as I'm

903
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:08,879
Speaker 1: sure you could tell.

904
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 3: I hope some of you guys did too.

905
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: But I also ended up with a million more questions

906
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,720
Speaker 1: for Hendley by the end. I found it so hard

907
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: to pick the questions I really wanted to ask in

908
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: the hour that we were so lucky to have. If

909
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 1: you're as much of a fangirl as me, of course

910
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: we have the questions enough to fill an entire series

911
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: on Headley. So I am pinching myself to say that

912
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: Headley has so kindly offered to do a follow up chat,

913
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: which may or may not end up happening live and

914
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: in person. For our Melbourne listeners. It's been so long

915
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: since we did a live event and I actually can't

916
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: fathom that we might be doing one with the great

917
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: Headley Thomas. We're teasing out the details, but I will

918
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: keep you all posted, so do stay tuned.

919
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 3: It was just so surreal to chat to a voice you've.

920
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: Known for so many years, and I can only imagine

921
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: how many of you would also be keen to ask

922
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: you more person and to meet him bought an experience.

923
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 3: Still can't believe I'm saying that, So yes, stay tuned.

924
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, links to further materials on all of

925
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: Headley's work are in the show notes and in this episode.

926
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: More than ever, we would be so grateful if you

927
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: could share the episode or any materials on Bronwin's case,

928
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: as if you are listening, you'll know new leads could

929
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: come from anywhere and it does remain unsolved in the meantime.

930
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 3: I hope you enjoyed listening.

931
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 1: I hope you have a wonderful Easter break ahead and

932
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 1: are seizing your yea