1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,341 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:26,781 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:26,822 --> 00:00:29,702 Speaker 2: Parenting Out Loud. I am Jess Stevens and I am 5 00:00:29,781 --> 00:00:33,422 Speaker 2: joined by Amelia Lester, and we're here to talk about 6 00:00:33,422 --> 00:00:35,982 Speaker 2: some of the stories that dominated the week, because if 7 00:00:36,062 --> 00:00:38,902 Speaker 2: parents are thinking about it, we are talking about it. 8 00:00:39,382 --> 00:00:41,462 Speaker 2: Welcome Amelia. How was your week? 9 00:00:41,662 --> 00:00:42,902 Speaker 3: Look? It's been stressful. 10 00:00:43,102 --> 00:00:46,262 Speaker 1: I'm tracking a parcel on the Australia Post app. 11 00:00:46,502 --> 00:00:47,182 Speaker 3: Have you been there? 12 00:00:47,542 --> 00:00:48,501 Speaker 2: Have I been there? Yep. 13 00:00:48,982 --> 00:00:51,582 Speaker 1: I decided I needed to buy a dress for a 14 00:00:51,702 --> 00:00:55,942 Speaker 1: very important upcoming social event. And you know how whenever 15 00:00:56,022 --> 00:00:58,502 Speaker 1: you need a piece of clothing for something you can 16 00:00:58,542 --> 00:01:01,182 Speaker 1: never find it. No, So I went online and I 17 00:01:01,222 --> 00:01:03,142 Speaker 1: bought a dress. I've never tried it on before, and 18 00:01:03,462 --> 00:01:05,662 Speaker 1: it may or may not work. It probably won't work, 19 00:01:05,661 --> 00:01:08,502 Speaker 1: given how online shopping turns out for me. And all 20 00:01:08,542 --> 00:01:10,702 Speaker 1: I can think of is is this dress going to 21 00:01:10,702 --> 00:01:13,422 Speaker 1: get to me? I left the house this morning for 22 00:01:13,462 --> 00:01:14,462 Speaker 1: like half an hour. 23 00:01:14,582 --> 00:01:15,342 Speaker 3: Guess what happened? 24 00:01:16,222 --> 00:01:18,622 Speaker 1: It's a right, So now I have to make the 25 00:01:18,702 --> 00:01:20,262 Speaker 1: trip into the post office for. 26 00:01:20,142 --> 00:01:23,222 Speaker 2: It, which is strictly only open when you are at work. 27 00:01:24,862 --> 00:01:27,862 Speaker 2: On today's show, should parents talk each other up? More? 28 00:01:27,982 --> 00:01:30,542 Speaker 2: Co parenting and how you talk about your current or 29 00:01:30,582 --> 00:01:33,262 Speaker 2: ex partner is everywhere at the moment, and we want 30 00:01:33,262 --> 00:01:37,702 Speaker 2: to know what are the rules? Plus apparently it's okay 31 00:01:37,902 --> 00:01:41,062 Speaker 2: to let your kids play with makeup. Amelia is armed 32 00:01:41,102 --> 00:01:44,462 Speaker 2: with a feminist defense and I am open minded but skeptical. 33 00:01:44,902 --> 00:01:47,702 Speaker 2: And Ellen Pompei's quote that had us asking if mothers 34 00:01:47,742 --> 00:01:51,462 Speaker 2: can ever really give one hundred percent at work? But first, 35 00:01:51,902 --> 00:01:54,422 Speaker 2: in case you missed it, there has been a question 36 00:01:54,622 --> 00:01:58,182 Speaker 2: dominating TikTok recently, which is how much do you pay 37 00:01:58,182 --> 00:02:00,622 Speaker 2: for kids haircut? Amelia, what's your gut response? 38 00:02:00,982 --> 00:02:03,262 Speaker 1: This is a difficult one for me. I'm a curly 39 00:02:03,302 --> 00:02:06,862 Speaker 1: haired girl and I have curly head children, and I 40 00:02:06,982 --> 00:02:10,221 Speaker 1: know that my curly head listeners will understand. And why 41 00:02:10,341 --> 00:02:13,982 Speaker 1: we can't give simple answers to questions about haircuts. I'm sorry, 42 00:02:14,061 --> 00:02:16,262 Speaker 1: I know you asked for a gut response. It's not 43 00:02:16,341 --> 00:02:18,462 Speaker 1: going to happen. I need to tell you a story. Okay, 44 00:02:18,862 --> 00:02:21,502 Speaker 1: So I don't know where to get my kid's haircut. 45 00:02:21,582 --> 00:02:24,822 Speaker 1: I went to a fancy salon in my neighborhood that 46 00:02:24,982 --> 00:02:29,022 Speaker 1: was recommended on my class group chat. Okay, we go in. 47 00:02:29,342 --> 00:02:31,542 Speaker 1: The First sign that this is not the right place 48 00:02:31,582 --> 00:02:34,302 Speaker 1: for us to be is that the children are given 49 00:02:34,502 --> 00:02:37,742 Speaker 1: a biscotti which I'm pretty sure was flavored with aniseed. 50 00:02:38,102 --> 00:02:39,102 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 51 00:02:39,222 --> 00:02:40,222 Speaker 2: Were they offered a latte? 52 00:02:42,902 --> 00:02:44,302 Speaker 3: They were probably offered a mimosa. 53 00:02:44,502 --> 00:02:47,462 Speaker 1: I don't think an aniseed biscotti is really the flavor 54 00:02:47,502 --> 00:02:50,982 Speaker 1: profile of kids snacks. But I was like, okay, this 55 00:02:51,102 --> 00:02:53,542 Speaker 1: is maybe not a good decision. But anyway, they went 56 00:02:53,582 --> 00:02:55,102 Speaker 1: off to get their hair washed at the sink. 57 00:02:55,302 --> 00:02:57,382 Speaker 2: I have a question about that. Is that worth it 58 00:02:57,862 --> 00:02:58,942 Speaker 2: to get the hair washed? 59 00:02:59,062 --> 00:03:00,662 Speaker 1: You know what, I don't have an answer for you. 60 00:03:00,742 --> 00:03:04,742 Speaker 1: And here's why I'm sitting eating my aniseed biscotti, which 61 00:03:04,782 --> 00:03:07,742 Speaker 1: was oddly bitter, I have to say. And then the 62 00:03:07,982 --> 00:03:10,382 Speaker 1: very nice hairdresser comes back to me. She touched me 63 00:03:10,422 --> 00:03:12,862 Speaker 1: on the shoulder and she whispers in my ear, what 64 00:03:12,902 --> 00:03:13,662 Speaker 1: do you think it was? 65 00:03:13,662 --> 00:03:14,582 Speaker 3: Was it a sweet? Nothing? 66 00:03:14,782 --> 00:03:15,022 Speaker 2: Was it? 67 00:03:15,022 --> 00:03:16,781 Speaker 3: Would you like more annisy piscotti? 68 00:03:17,022 --> 00:03:19,782 Speaker 2: I think that she's found she's found something, like. 69 00:03:19,902 --> 00:03:22,022 Speaker 3: Found something living and it was lie. 70 00:03:22,502 --> 00:03:24,782 Speaker 1: So we ran out and now I have to cross 71 00:03:24,822 --> 00:03:27,542 Speaker 1: the street every time I walk past that salon. 72 00:03:27,982 --> 00:03:31,341 Speaker 2: Okay, what happened is that this woman named Millie was 73 00:03:31,382 --> 00:03:34,902 Speaker 2: on TikTok and she took her daughter to the hairdresser. 74 00:03:35,022 --> 00:03:38,142 Speaker 2: She didn't ask how much. She was expecting thirty forty bucks, right, 75 00:03:38,462 --> 00:03:41,502 Speaker 2: and she was charged one hundred and twenty, which is 76 00:03:41,662 --> 00:03:43,942 Speaker 2: that's more than I would expect my haircut to be. 77 00:03:44,742 --> 00:03:47,422 Speaker 2: And so this got everyone talking about how much it 78 00:03:47,422 --> 00:03:50,022 Speaker 2: should be. You raise a good point, which is the 79 00:03:50,102 --> 00:03:52,982 Speaker 2: risk hairdressers are taking when they touch children on the 80 00:03:53,062 --> 00:03:57,422 Speaker 2: head is just so so high, like the chances that 81 00:03:57,422 --> 00:04:00,502 Speaker 2: they have lice. I remember distinctly as a kid going in. 82 00:04:00,702 --> 00:04:04,222 Speaker 2: Things were found not good. They always stop the haircut. 83 00:04:04,222 --> 00:04:04,902 Speaker 2: It's very sad. 84 00:04:05,502 --> 00:04:08,022 Speaker 1: But we asked they probably put photos of us out 85 00:04:08,102 --> 00:04:10,902 Speaker 1: the back so like worn them if we ever came back. 86 00:04:10,702 --> 00:04:12,942 Speaker 2: In they ever come in. We went to out loud 87 00:04:12,982 --> 00:04:15,062 Speaker 2: It's and we were like, what is the cost of 88 00:04:15,062 --> 00:04:18,981 Speaker 2: a haircut that you would expect today? The average was 89 00:04:19,022 --> 00:04:22,062 Speaker 2: about forty two dollars. But there was this story from 90 00:04:22,062 --> 00:04:24,502 Speaker 2: an out louder who moved to Melbourne. She took her 91 00:04:24,502 --> 00:04:28,942 Speaker 2: two children to a chain hairdresser, budget hairdresser, not Fancy Nobiscotti. 92 00:04:29,741 --> 00:04:32,902 Speaker 2: They didn't ask the price before, and as she left 93 00:04:32,902 --> 00:04:35,101 Speaker 2: and went to pay for it, it was one hundred 94 00:04:35,142 --> 00:04:37,782 Speaker 2: and seventy dollars for both of them, a trim and 95 00:04:37,821 --> 00:04:41,741 Speaker 2: a wash, and she said, I nearly died. Needless to say, 96 00:04:41,861 --> 00:04:43,821 Speaker 2: my mother in law will be cutting their hair from 97 00:04:43,821 --> 00:04:47,981 Speaker 2: now on. My mum took my niece to get her 98 00:04:48,022 --> 00:04:50,301 Speaker 2: first haircut the other day. Yeah, and did you know 99 00:04:50,702 --> 00:04:54,621 Speaker 2: that just Cuts does under twelve months free first haircut? 100 00:04:54,821 --> 00:04:56,181 Speaker 3: I did, and they give it to you in. 101 00:04:56,181 --> 00:04:58,981 Speaker 2: A little envelope. My uncle is the founder of just Cut. 102 00:04:59,342 --> 00:05:02,182 Speaker 1: This is such a heartwarming story. We hear all these 103 00:05:02,181 --> 00:05:05,621 Speaker 1: things about companies squeezing profit margins. Just Cuts is out 104 00:05:05,621 --> 00:05:08,421 Speaker 1: there getting out little bits of hearing envelopes exactly. 105 00:05:08,501 --> 00:05:11,421 Speaker 2: I grew up with my uncle doing the like Boldcut 106 00:05:11,541 --> 00:05:14,382 Speaker 2: or whatever, and now he started Just Cuts and ended 107 00:05:14,462 --> 00:05:16,902 Speaker 2: up being quite the success story. But that is his rule. 108 00:05:17,022 --> 00:05:19,701 Speaker 2: So you go to just Cuts and you say, even 109 00:05:19,702 --> 00:05:21,302 Speaker 2: if they're five or I can just be like, yeah, 110 00:05:21,541 --> 00:05:24,462 Speaker 2: twelve months, they just very highly developed. Your kids could 111 00:05:24,501 --> 00:05:26,342 Speaker 2: passes eleven months old. 112 00:05:26,421 --> 00:05:28,261 Speaker 3: Surely I think that's a compliment. 113 00:05:30,541 --> 00:05:32,782 Speaker 1: Is building up your co parent in the eyes of 114 00:05:32,821 --> 00:05:35,862 Speaker 1: your children. Part of being a good parent. I have 115 00:05:35,902 --> 00:05:38,741 Speaker 1: to admit I had literally never thought about this before. 116 00:05:38,821 --> 00:05:41,902 Speaker 1: I read a substack about it recently, and now I 117 00:05:41,981 --> 00:05:44,981 Speaker 1: cannot stop thinking about it. This was in the Cuts 118 00:05:45,101 --> 00:05:49,141 Speaker 1: Brooding newsletter by Catherine Geza Morton. She asked this question 119 00:05:49,222 --> 00:05:52,262 Speaker 1: and I was reminded of it because co parenting and 120 00:05:52,301 --> 00:05:54,501 Speaker 1: how to talk about it has been in the news. 121 00:05:54,741 --> 00:05:55,101 Speaker 3: First. 122 00:05:55,181 --> 00:05:58,261 Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone saw that. Debory Furnace released a statement 123 00:05:58,262 --> 00:06:01,181 Speaker 1: to the media following her divorce from Hugh Jackman. She 124 00:06:01,301 --> 00:06:04,502 Speaker 1: said her heart went out to everyone who has traversed 125 00:06:04,621 --> 00:06:09,181 Speaker 1: the traumatic journey of betrayal. They have two children together. 126 00:06:09,381 --> 00:06:13,222 Speaker 1: The second was also recently. Joe Jonas, who shares two 127 00:06:13,301 --> 00:06:17,022 Speaker 1: daughters with Sophie Turner, talked about their beautiful dynamic on 128 00:06:17,142 --> 00:06:20,382 Speaker 1: Jay Shetty's podcast, which I guess everyone listens to except me. 129 00:06:20,582 --> 00:06:21,262 Speaker 2: Yes correct. 130 00:06:21,421 --> 00:06:24,462 Speaker 1: He said, having an incredible mom Sophie for these girls 131 00:06:24,582 --> 00:06:28,101 Speaker 1: is like a dream come true. He said, whether you're 132 00:06:28,101 --> 00:06:30,422 Speaker 1: still legally attached to your co parent or not. I 133 00:06:30,462 --> 00:06:33,221 Speaker 1: think that this is a really interesting question to explore, 134 00:06:33,262 --> 00:06:36,342 Speaker 1: because every time I ask someone, it inevitably brings up 135 00:06:36,662 --> 00:06:40,301 Speaker 1: memories and thoughts about their childhoods and how they're bringing 136 00:06:40,381 --> 00:06:43,981 Speaker 1: their childhood experiences to parenting now, Jesse, which is to say, 137 00:06:43,981 --> 00:06:45,582 Speaker 1: have you thought about this? Do you? 138 00:06:45,621 --> 00:06:46,462 Speaker 3: Gus luka up? 139 00:06:47,022 --> 00:06:50,262 Speaker 2: I had not thought about it until you brought it up, 140 00:06:50,421 --> 00:06:53,301 Speaker 2: and it made me think about an experience I had 141 00:06:53,381 --> 00:06:56,981 Speaker 2: recently where I realized that we had stopped thanking each 142 00:06:57,022 --> 00:07:01,342 Speaker 2: other for seemingly tiny things like unstacking the dishwasherola? Not 143 00:07:01,462 --> 00:07:04,181 Speaker 2: all the time, but there are certain acts that you 144 00:07:04,222 --> 00:07:05,901 Speaker 2: do that I don't care if you've been together for 145 00:07:05,941 --> 00:07:08,782 Speaker 2: five minutes or fifty years. You should thank each other, 146 00:07:08,861 --> 00:07:10,422 Speaker 2: Like when someone make you a coffee and puts it 147 00:07:10,462 --> 00:07:13,622 Speaker 2: in front of you. It's like such a basic human act. 148 00:07:14,222 --> 00:07:17,581 Speaker 2: When you're raising a child or children, I think that 149 00:07:18,022 --> 00:07:20,662 Speaker 2: most of what they learn is through example and through modeling. 150 00:07:20,702 --> 00:07:23,542 Speaker 2: So you kind of go, oh, we're treating each other 151 00:07:24,102 --> 00:07:26,662 Speaker 2: not in an ideal way here, So I've kind of 152 00:07:26,702 --> 00:07:29,462 Speaker 2: reintroduced the idea of thank you. 153 00:07:29,582 --> 00:07:30,622 Speaker 3: How does it make you feel? 154 00:07:30,862 --> 00:07:33,742 Speaker 2: I found that when we didn't say thank you, it 155 00:07:33,782 --> 00:07:37,302 Speaker 2: was like it was just this expectation rather than we 156 00:07:37,302 --> 00:07:40,982 Speaker 2: were two adults helping each other out. There's a book 157 00:07:41,062 --> 00:07:43,062 Speaker 2: called How Not to Hate your Husband After Kids. Have 158 00:07:43,142 --> 00:07:43,701 Speaker 2: you heard about this? 159 00:07:43,742 --> 00:07:45,342 Speaker 3: Book, No Tell Me about It. 160 00:07:45,462 --> 00:07:49,941 Speaker 2: She as a journalist and she wrote this book after 161 00:07:50,062 --> 00:07:52,062 Speaker 2: she realized how much. 162 00:07:51,862 --> 00:07:52,502 Speaker 1: She hated us. 163 00:07:52,582 --> 00:07:54,622 Speaker 3: A great title is such a good. 164 00:07:54,381 --> 00:07:58,141 Speaker 2: Title, And she found that ninety five percent of the 165 00:07:58,182 --> 00:08:01,542 Speaker 2: couple she spoke to said that they really struggled after 166 00:08:01,742 --> 00:08:05,062 Speaker 2: having a baby, and that in fact, your relationship satisfaction 167 00:08:05,142 --> 00:08:08,781 Speaker 2: goes down. So whether it's one baby, apparently the more kids, 168 00:08:08,902 --> 00:08:13,222 Speaker 2: the more relationship satisfaction goes down. And a lot of 169 00:08:13,302 --> 00:08:18,582 Speaker 2: people will have memories in their household of fighting, of 170 00:08:19,022 --> 00:08:23,141 Speaker 2: put downs, of people being passive aggressive towards each other, 171 00:08:23,742 --> 00:08:25,942 Speaker 2: and I think sometimes it gives license to the children 172 00:08:26,381 --> 00:08:29,342 Speaker 2: to either adopt that or see a parent in a 173 00:08:29,381 --> 00:08:32,742 Speaker 2: less respectful light. So I thought this was such a 174 00:08:32,782 --> 00:08:35,302 Speaker 2: pertinent point at a time when we are talking more 175 00:08:35,342 --> 00:08:38,182 Speaker 2: than ever about division of the domestic load, which gives 176 00:08:38,182 --> 00:08:41,742 Speaker 2: way to a lot of conversations. Were constantly over communicating, 177 00:08:41,782 --> 00:08:44,702 Speaker 2: sometimes being like I did this your turn, blah blah blah, 178 00:08:44,742 --> 00:08:48,262 Speaker 2: point scoring. I'm very good at point scoring. But yeah, 179 00:08:48,342 --> 00:08:50,742 Speaker 2: I thought that's such a good point that at a 180 00:08:50,742 --> 00:08:52,982 Speaker 2: time when we're doing that, we've also got a model 181 00:08:53,222 --> 00:08:54,062 Speaker 2: good language. 182 00:08:54,262 --> 00:08:56,022 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And in this 183 00:08:56,102 --> 00:09:00,222 Speaker 1: Brooding newsletter, she asks some people to explain why they 184 00:09:00,262 --> 00:09:02,182 Speaker 1: made a habit of praising their co parent, Because the 185 00:09:02,182 --> 00:09:04,302 Speaker 1: interesting thing is she did this quick survey and ask 186 00:09:04,382 --> 00:09:06,662 Speaker 1: people if they did it, and a lot of people 187 00:09:06,742 --> 00:09:08,742 Speaker 1: felt the same as us. They had never thought about 188 00:09:08,782 --> 00:09:12,382 Speaker 1: it before, but then given the proposition, well do you 189 00:09:12,422 --> 00:09:14,822 Speaker 1: praise your partner or your co parent, they started to 190 00:09:14,822 --> 00:09:17,182 Speaker 1: think that they probably should. So here are some themes 191 00:09:17,182 --> 00:09:20,062 Speaker 1: that emerged from people who were doing it. Many parents 192 00:09:20,102 --> 00:09:22,062 Speaker 1: were trying to lead by example. They wanted to teach 193 00:09:22,102 --> 00:09:24,942 Speaker 1: their kids the importance of giving and receiving love in 194 00:09:24,982 --> 00:09:26,782 Speaker 1: the form of praise, which I think is a really 195 00:09:26,862 --> 00:09:27,422 Speaker 1: nice idea. 196 00:09:28,022 --> 00:09:28,862 Speaker 3: This was interesting. 197 00:09:28,942 --> 00:09:31,782 Speaker 1: Some felt like they were kind of building the scaffolding 198 00:09:31,862 --> 00:09:34,302 Speaker 1: in case their relationship hit a rough patch. 199 00:09:34,422 --> 00:09:35,262 Speaker 3: So it's like, if. 200 00:09:35,102 --> 00:09:39,062 Speaker 1: We bank some goodwill and gratitude now and create that 201 00:09:39,182 --> 00:09:42,102 Speaker 1: strong bond through that, then when we hit rocky times, 202 00:09:42,142 --> 00:09:43,982 Speaker 1: we can kind of draw on the bank account of 203 00:09:44,062 --> 00:09:48,342 Speaker 1: praise and gratitude. And then another one was interesting. This 204 00:09:48,382 --> 00:09:50,462 Speaker 1: is a little bit like what you were saying, trying 205 00:09:50,502 --> 00:09:52,902 Speaker 1: to build a family culture that's different from the one 206 00:09:52,942 --> 00:09:53,862 Speaker 1: that they grew up in. 207 00:09:54,062 --> 00:09:56,542 Speaker 2: The author I was talking about before she said we 208 00:09:56,622 --> 00:09:59,142 Speaker 2: save our best selves for our children, and I don't 209 00:09:59,142 --> 00:10:02,142 Speaker 2: think that's always the best example for the children, right 210 00:10:02,342 --> 00:10:04,422 Speaker 2: to see that you speak to them in a certain way. 211 00:10:04,742 --> 00:10:08,342 Speaker 2: My patience for Luna is beyond anything I imagined I 212 00:10:08,342 --> 00:10:12,342 Speaker 2: could ever have. My patience for Luca has severely reduced. 213 00:10:12,662 --> 00:10:15,702 Speaker 2: So while you've got a sick baby who's screaming, and 214 00:10:15,742 --> 00:10:18,422 Speaker 2: you go, I can't ever take my frustration out on her. 215 00:10:18,782 --> 00:10:21,542 Speaker 2: I've seen moments where we do it to each other, 216 00:10:21,702 --> 00:10:24,062 Speaker 2: like can I think further frustration? And I think that 217 00:10:24,062 --> 00:10:27,822 Speaker 2: that's inevitable to an extent. But I really liked the 218 00:10:27,862 --> 00:10:31,062 Speaker 2: idea that we've heard this reluctance. And there's kind of 219 00:10:31,102 --> 00:10:34,022 Speaker 2: this conservative criticism of divorce and the impact that might 220 00:10:34,062 --> 00:10:37,502 Speaker 2: have on kids, but the everyday verbal japs that you 221 00:10:37,582 --> 00:10:40,862 Speaker 2: might have and even a loving marriage can't be good either. 222 00:10:41,182 --> 00:10:43,142 Speaker 2: It's an interesting new way to look at it. 223 00:10:43,382 --> 00:10:47,342 Speaker 1: There's also some people who are reluctant to engage in 224 00:10:47,382 --> 00:10:50,382 Speaker 1: this habit because they feel like it's adopting a bit 225 00:10:50,422 --> 00:10:53,942 Speaker 1: of a kind of retro mother worship dynamic, you know, 226 00:10:54,142 --> 00:10:57,382 Speaker 1: like mother does everything for us, isn't she amazing? And 227 00:10:57,462 --> 00:11:00,982 Speaker 1: kind of emphasizing the idea of the all giving mother. 228 00:11:01,582 --> 00:11:04,022 Speaker 1: I think it's also hard to receive praise sometimes because 229 00:11:04,062 --> 00:11:07,662 Speaker 1: you get suspicious about maybe why someone's doing it. But 230 00:11:07,942 --> 00:11:11,142 Speaker 1: I feel like what a lot of people who were 231 00:11:11,142 --> 00:11:14,182 Speaker 1: surveyed here said was they started doing it and then 232 00:11:14,222 --> 00:11:16,902 Speaker 1: they noticed changes, which is why I asked you how 233 00:11:16,942 --> 00:11:19,742 Speaker 1: you were feeling about doing it. Once you've established a habit, 234 00:11:20,342 --> 00:11:23,422 Speaker 1: people say that it makes their children treat them better too, 235 00:11:23,662 --> 00:11:26,582 Speaker 1: because they're modeling how to be in a civil give 236 00:11:26,622 --> 00:11:29,822 Speaker 1: and take relationship, and the author of Brooding said that 237 00:11:29,862 --> 00:11:33,462 Speaker 1: once she started both accepting and giving out praise to 238 00:11:33,542 --> 00:11:36,302 Speaker 1: her co parent, her children started asking her how her 239 00:11:36,382 --> 00:11:37,902 Speaker 1: day was more often. 240 00:11:37,662 --> 00:11:41,102 Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, unheard of. It also gave me a 241 00:11:41,142 --> 00:11:46,742 Speaker 2: lot more compassionate understanding for the celebrity statements that we 242 00:11:46,782 --> 00:11:49,782 Speaker 2: often hear, so the conscious uncoupling of Gwyneth and Chris, 243 00:11:49,902 --> 00:11:53,502 Speaker 2: for example, or the mutual respect that we often hear, 244 00:11:53,542 --> 00:11:56,022 Speaker 2: and we roll our eyes because we think it seems inauthentic. 245 00:11:56,502 --> 00:12:01,142 Speaker 2: But I really respect parents who go we're going to uncouple, 246 00:12:01,582 --> 00:12:04,862 Speaker 2: but we are going to speak about each other respectfully always, 247 00:12:05,142 --> 00:12:07,102 Speaker 2: because when we don't, that doesn't end well. 248 00:12:07,342 --> 00:12:09,942 Speaker 1: Yeah. Another good example of that is Bruce Willison to me. More, 249 00:12:10,582 --> 00:12:14,102 Speaker 1: Demi Moore has spoken openly about how they'll always be 250 00:12:14,142 --> 00:12:16,902 Speaker 1: a family. They've been divorced for some time now, just 251 00:12:16,942 --> 00:12:19,422 Speaker 1: in a different form. I do want to, though, leave 252 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:23,582 Speaker 1: a bit of space for Deborah le to express herself. 253 00:12:23,662 --> 00:12:26,422 Speaker 1: I think to me that's a slightly different point from 254 00:12:26,902 --> 00:12:30,262 Speaker 1: whether you're making a habit of praising your partner, because 255 00:12:30,342 --> 00:12:36,062 Speaker 1: I think there's something refreshing about Deborahle Furnace being honest 256 00:12:36,502 --> 00:12:38,062 Speaker 1: about what happened. 257 00:12:38,462 --> 00:12:40,742 Speaker 2: I think you can also praise someone as a parent 258 00:12:41,502 --> 00:12:43,982 Speaker 2: while also acknowledging that maybe they weren't the perfect husband. 259 00:12:44,102 --> 00:12:44,622 Speaker 3: Great point. 260 00:12:45,662 --> 00:12:48,982 Speaker 2: Just let your kids play with makeup. That's the title 261 00:12:49,142 --> 00:12:51,702 Speaker 2: of a column in The Atlantic I stumbled upon recently 262 00:12:52,182 --> 00:12:54,862 Speaker 2: which argues that your daughter or son playing with makeup 263 00:12:54,982 --> 00:12:59,622 Speaker 2: is not a red flag. Apparently, when kids imitate applying lipstick, 264 00:12:59,782 --> 00:13:03,782 Speaker 2: it's developmentally normal and a really healthy part of role playing. 265 00:13:04,142 --> 00:13:07,382 Speaker 2: In fact, our fear of it says something about how 266 00:13:07,462 --> 00:13:10,622 Speaker 2: we put down girly culture. We don't bristle in the 267 00:13:10,662 --> 00:13:14,462 Speaker 2: same way when boys play with cars. For example, Amelia, 268 00:13:14,582 --> 00:13:16,822 Speaker 2: I feel like the feminist books I've read told me 269 00:13:16,982 --> 00:13:19,302 Speaker 2: that this is very bad and that I'm socializing my 270 00:13:19,422 --> 00:13:21,902 Speaker 2: daughter to think she needs to alter her appearance in 271 00:13:21,982 --> 00:13:24,662 Speaker 2: order to be considered beautiful, which is her currency as 272 00:13:24,662 --> 00:13:26,742 Speaker 2: a female in the world. And she doesn't see her 273 00:13:26,822 --> 00:13:29,822 Speaker 2: dad putting on makeup? Am I a cog in the 274 00:13:29,862 --> 00:13:30,942 Speaker 2: patriarchy machine? 275 00:13:31,022 --> 00:13:34,062 Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk about this because I 276 00:13:34,502 --> 00:13:36,862 Speaker 1: want to mount a feminist case for makeup. 277 00:13:36,902 --> 00:13:38,422 Speaker 2: Oh my God, ready to go. Yes. 278 00:13:39,182 --> 00:13:43,262 Speaker 1: The more you lean into makeup as a form of artifice, 279 00:13:43,342 --> 00:13:46,182 Speaker 1: as a toy, as a fun thing, the less it 280 00:13:46,262 --> 00:13:50,062 Speaker 1: becomes this mysterious necessity of adult womanhood. I think, the 281 00:13:50,062 --> 00:13:52,302 Speaker 1: more mystique you build around it, and if you keep 282 00:13:52,342 --> 00:13:55,062 Speaker 1: your children away from the fun little gold tubes, and 283 00:13:55,142 --> 00:13:57,462 Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't children want to play with this stuff? 284 00:13:57,502 --> 00:13:59,942 Speaker 1: It is essentially like a box of crayons, accept more 285 00:13:59,942 --> 00:14:04,342 Speaker 1: fun and expensive. The more you're making it seem like 286 00:14:04,502 --> 00:14:08,782 Speaker 1: something that only adult women can indulge in or play with. 287 00:14:08,982 --> 00:14:11,062 Speaker 1: And I think it's it's really important that a we 288 00:14:11,102 --> 00:14:13,702 Speaker 1: make clear that makeup is fun. It is not a necessity. 289 00:14:13,902 --> 00:14:16,142 Speaker 1: It is not something that you need to hide yourself 290 00:14:16,222 --> 00:14:20,142 Speaker 1: or camouflage yourself. It's just a fun thing. And then two, 291 00:14:20,222 --> 00:14:22,262 Speaker 1: the more we decouple it from the idea of it's 292 00:14:22,422 --> 00:14:26,502 Speaker 1: just something used by women. So girls and boys are 293 00:14:26,502 --> 00:14:29,542 Speaker 1: attracted to the bright colors of makeup, let them play 294 00:14:29,582 --> 00:14:32,782 Speaker 1: with it. The more we demystify, I think, the less 295 00:14:33,182 --> 00:14:36,782 Speaker 1: power and importance is placed on it as a necessary 296 00:14:36,942 --> 00:14:38,342 Speaker 1: ritual of being a woman. 297 00:14:38,782 --> 00:14:41,622 Speaker 2: You make a really good point because playing with your 298 00:14:41,662 --> 00:14:45,822 Speaker 2: appearance is a developmental master So there's a recognizing in 299 00:14:45,862 --> 00:14:48,702 Speaker 2: the mirror. Then having control over your appearance or knowing 300 00:14:48,702 --> 00:14:51,222 Speaker 2: that you can manipulate it or choose what you wear, 301 00:14:51,982 --> 00:14:55,422 Speaker 2: is something that every kid is going to go through, right, 302 00:14:55,542 --> 00:15:00,942 Speaker 2: So I understand embracing that. What I struggle with is 303 00:15:01,022 --> 00:15:05,582 Speaker 2: the way in which brands have got their claws into it. 304 00:15:06,182 --> 00:15:09,342 Speaker 2: There are some makeup companies. There's one in the US. 305 00:15:09,582 --> 00:15:12,382 Speaker 2: It is literally marketed to three year olds three plus, 306 00:15:12,582 --> 00:15:18,142 Speaker 2: and they have used images or like cartoons or beloved 307 00:15:18,582 --> 00:15:21,982 Speaker 2: toys that my daughter plays with to go this is 308 00:15:21,982 --> 00:15:24,502 Speaker 2: for you to make it look fun and exciting. And 309 00:15:24,542 --> 00:15:27,862 Speaker 2: as much as makeup is fun and I love makeup, 310 00:15:27,982 --> 00:15:30,742 Speaker 2: I would be lying if I said it didn't also 311 00:15:30,862 --> 00:15:34,102 Speaker 2: play a role in feeling as though I need to 312 00:15:34,262 --> 00:15:37,582 Speaker 2: present in a certain way to the world. Obviously, if 313 00:15:37,582 --> 00:15:39,822 Speaker 2: I do television. I sit in a chair for an hour, 314 00:15:39,902 --> 00:15:42,542 Speaker 2: whereas the male co host gets ten minutes. There are 315 00:15:42,542 --> 00:15:45,262 Speaker 2: things like that that we can't reconcile in a home necessarily. 316 00:15:45,822 --> 00:15:49,782 Speaker 2: But there is something deeply unequal and patriarchal about the 317 00:15:49,822 --> 00:15:50,742 Speaker 2: practice of makeup. 318 00:15:50,822 --> 00:15:53,342 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, damn it, you've just remembered in old case. 319 00:15:53,662 --> 00:15:56,062 Speaker 1: I think you raised some really good points. There's something 320 00:15:56,382 --> 00:16:00,622 Speaker 1: strangely circular about marketing makeup to three year olds, in 321 00:16:00,622 --> 00:16:04,422 Speaker 1: the sense that why a lot of women wear makeup 322 00:16:04,662 --> 00:16:08,582 Speaker 1: is because we are taught that it makes us look younger, 323 00:16:08,982 --> 00:16:11,262 Speaker 1: and so we put blush on our cheeks because as 324 00:16:11,302 --> 00:16:14,222 Speaker 1: you get older, you lose color in your cheeks, and 325 00:16:14,262 --> 00:16:17,102 Speaker 1: we put mascara on because as you get older, where 326 00:16:17,102 --> 00:16:21,262 Speaker 1: do your lashes go? Side note all pigment, And because 327 00:16:21,302 --> 00:16:23,782 Speaker 1: you're losing pigment, that's why you're applying more makeup as 328 00:16:23,782 --> 00:16:26,342 Speaker 1: you get older. So the thinking goes. So there's something 329 00:16:26,582 --> 00:16:33,262 Speaker 1: so odd about then teaching three year olds to look young. 330 00:16:33,462 --> 00:16:37,782 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to market to them. I have seen videos 331 00:16:37,822 --> 00:16:41,062 Speaker 2: come up of twelve year olds using anti aging products 332 00:16:41,102 --> 00:16:44,662 Speaker 2: like that's been absorbed. I mean, the whole skincare trend 333 00:16:45,062 --> 00:16:49,582 Speaker 2: is unbelievable and has literally put a rocket up the 334 00:16:49,662 --> 00:16:53,462 Speaker 2: markets of skincare and makeup. And there was this example 335 00:16:53,782 --> 00:16:57,262 Speaker 2: a few years ago of a makeup brand doing a 336 00:16:57,382 --> 00:17:00,982 Speaker 2: back to school event and it was like, come along, 337 00:17:01,422 --> 00:17:03,382 Speaker 2: will teach you to do your makeup for school and 338 00:17:03,422 --> 00:17:06,102 Speaker 2: you can get redeemable products from that. And they said 339 00:17:06,101 --> 00:17:08,262 Speaker 2: browse and skin like. They weren't going, You're gonna wear 340 00:17:08,382 --> 00:17:11,782 Speaker 2: eyeeshadow to school, but I just went. Know something about 341 00:17:11,821 --> 00:17:14,821 Speaker 2: that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I think that that is 342 00:17:15,742 --> 00:17:17,942 Speaker 2: something I'd like to put off for as long as 343 00:17:17,942 --> 00:17:18,341 Speaker 2: I can. 344 00:17:18,621 --> 00:17:21,621 Speaker 1: Well. And there's also an interesting question here, do you 345 00:17:21,661 --> 00:17:26,821 Speaker 1: feel differently about kids using makeup versus kids using skincare, 346 00:17:27,502 --> 00:17:31,821 Speaker 1: because we've heard skincare companies tell us, oh, it's like 347 00:17:31,901 --> 00:17:34,061 Speaker 1: brushing your teeth. You've got to start early. We've got 348 00:17:34,061 --> 00:17:36,982 Speaker 1: to create the healthy habits. I always think, I don't know. 349 00:17:37,182 --> 00:17:39,782 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I was meant to wash my 350 00:17:39,901 --> 00:17:42,701 Speaker 1: face until I was eighteen, pretty much. 351 00:17:42,782 --> 00:17:45,502 Speaker 3: And no, and it's fine. It hasn't fallen off. 352 00:17:45,341 --> 00:17:47,262 Speaker 2: The idea that you need a routine. I mean that's 353 00:17:47,341 --> 00:17:49,782 Speaker 2: just like textbook capitalism. You get them younger and younger 354 00:17:49,782 --> 00:17:51,861 Speaker 2: and then you get them into the routine. That totally 355 00:17:51,901 --> 00:17:56,061 Speaker 2: makes sense. But other than using a terrible exfoliant that 356 00:17:56,141 --> 00:17:59,621 Speaker 2: took off layers of my skin to cut one Yeah, fourteen, 357 00:17:59,982 --> 00:18:04,381 Speaker 2: I loved that and it was three dollars great, it 358 00:18:04,462 --> 00:18:06,902 Speaker 2: smelled great, but we know it wasn't doing good things, 359 00:18:06,901 --> 00:18:09,061 Speaker 2: and in fact, it was probably very bad for the environment. 360 00:18:09,702 --> 00:18:12,661 Speaker 2: But the idea that you've got girls coming up and 361 00:18:12,702 --> 00:18:15,141 Speaker 2: asking their mum for these products and then you, as 362 00:18:15,182 --> 00:18:17,061 Speaker 2: a parent, have to say no, even though I look 363 00:18:17,061 --> 00:18:21,022 Speaker 2: at my cupboard, is like a really awkward hypocrisy because 364 00:18:21,022 --> 00:18:22,821 Speaker 2: the reality is as much as we might have our 365 00:18:23,101 --> 00:18:25,022 Speaker 2: makeup laying around and boys will play with it and 366 00:18:25,061 --> 00:18:27,582 Speaker 2: girls are playing with it, it's not seven year old 367 00:18:27,621 --> 00:18:30,302 Speaker 2: boys that are saying, can I go and buy a 368 00:18:30,341 --> 00:18:31,661 Speaker 2: lip gloss from? 369 00:18:31,782 --> 00:18:32,341 Speaker 3: No, it's not. 370 00:18:32,661 --> 00:18:35,302 Speaker 1: There's a part of me that feels like the makeup 371 00:18:35,621 --> 00:18:38,382 Speaker 1: is more okay than the skincare. 372 00:18:38,661 --> 00:18:39,622 Speaker 2: It feels more playful. 373 00:18:39,702 --> 00:18:40,702 Speaker 3: It's more playful. 374 00:18:40,861 --> 00:18:43,782 Speaker 1: It's because makeup it looks like toys. 375 00:18:44,262 --> 00:18:47,941 Speaker 2: That's so true, and there is something inherently, I believe, 376 00:18:48,621 --> 00:18:51,341 Speaker 2: artistic about it. It's playful because of the colors and 377 00:18:51,381 --> 00:18:54,261 Speaker 2: because you can experiment, and because you can make your 378 00:18:54,262 --> 00:18:57,302 Speaker 2: face look different, whether it's prettier or not, but like 379 00:18:57,341 --> 00:19:01,101 Speaker 2: you can just play with it, whereas the skincare thing 380 00:19:01,942 --> 00:19:03,621 Speaker 2: is a whole other ballgame. 381 00:19:04,061 --> 00:19:06,861 Speaker 1: I think so. And I think that another difference is 382 00:19:06,901 --> 00:19:12,982 Speaker 1: that makeup is something that only adult women really are 383 00:19:13,022 --> 00:19:17,261 Speaker 1: expected to wear. If you don't wear makeup as an 384 00:19:17,262 --> 00:19:21,341 Speaker 1: adult woman, unfortunately you were perceived as making a choice 385 00:19:21,341 --> 00:19:24,061 Speaker 1: not to wear makeup. It's not the default. The default 386 00:19:24,381 --> 00:19:26,701 Speaker 1: right now in twenty twenty five is that if you 387 00:19:26,782 --> 00:19:30,141 Speaker 1: leave the house not wearing makeup, that's a decision you 388 00:19:30,222 --> 00:19:34,502 Speaker 1: made to deviate from normal. And I just want to 389 00:19:34,542 --> 00:19:37,861 Speaker 1: break that down as much as possible, And paradoxically, I 390 00:19:37,901 --> 00:19:40,902 Speaker 1: think the way to do that is just to teach kids, boys, 391 00:19:41,022 --> 00:19:44,902 Speaker 1: girls that it's just a fun thing to play with 392 00:19:45,262 --> 00:19:47,782 Speaker 1: rather than a tool or a piece of armor. 393 00:19:48,702 --> 00:19:51,861 Speaker 2: There is a quote by Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeo 394 00:19:52,022 --> 00:19:55,262 Speaker 2: that I've been thinking about for months. Earlier this year, 395 00:19:55,302 --> 00:19:58,141 Speaker 2: she was a guest on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy podcast, 396 00:19:58,222 --> 00:20:00,621 Speaker 2: and she said, you cannot be a mother and have 397 00:20:00,702 --> 00:20:03,421 Speaker 2: children and give one hundred percent to your job. You 398 00:20:03,462 --> 00:20:05,861 Speaker 2: can't because there's a part of you that's somewhere else. 399 00:20:06,061 --> 00:20:09,542 Speaker 2: You split into different pieces. You're no longer just you. 400 00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:13,022 Speaker 2: You've been split into different pieces. Well, that might sound 401 00:20:13,101 --> 00:20:15,341 Speaker 2: like a negative thing. The other thing she went on 402 00:20:15,381 --> 00:20:17,942 Speaker 2: to say was you know what that does? It makes 403 00:20:17,982 --> 00:20:20,502 Speaker 2: you more soulful, It makes you richer, It makes you funnier, 404 00:20:20,542 --> 00:20:22,741 Speaker 2: it makes you feel more, makes you more empathetic, it 405 00:20:22,782 --> 00:20:25,142 Speaker 2: makes you angrier. She talks about the range of emotions 406 00:20:25,182 --> 00:20:30,581 Speaker 2: you have, and you will be yourself times one thousand, Amelia. 407 00:20:30,621 --> 00:20:32,702 Speaker 2: Do you think it's true that you cannot give one 408 00:20:32,742 --> 00:20:34,702 Speaker 2: hundred percent to your job once you become a mother. 409 00:20:35,101 --> 00:20:39,621 Speaker 1: My popular opinion on this is that you can't. I 410 00:20:39,621 --> 00:20:41,941 Speaker 1: think Allen's right. I think it is really hard to 411 00:20:41,942 --> 00:20:44,622 Speaker 1: give one hundred percent to anything once you've become a mother, 412 00:20:44,702 --> 00:20:47,181 Speaker 1: because you're always thinking about if you have fruit for 413 00:20:47,222 --> 00:20:48,741 Speaker 1: the lunchboxes. 414 00:20:48,101 --> 00:20:49,982 Speaker 3: Tomorrow, and do you need to wash this? And what 415 00:20:50,061 --> 00:20:51,181 Speaker 3: are they go that's your definition. 416 00:20:51,262 --> 00:20:54,941 Speaker 2: No, I feel like this is a definitional thing of like, 417 00:20:55,742 --> 00:20:58,222 Speaker 2: you can still show up to work and do the 418 00:20:58,262 --> 00:21:00,422 Speaker 2: best work and the quality of work you did before 419 00:21:00,422 --> 00:21:03,782 Speaker 2: you had babies. But does one hundred percent mean give 420 00:21:03,942 --> 00:21:04,861 Speaker 2: my whole self? 421 00:21:05,182 --> 00:21:07,462 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to add a caveat, which is you're 422 00:21:07,502 --> 00:21:10,341 Speaker 1: not giving one hundred percent, but you're getting a whole 423 00:21:10,341 --> 00:21:13,742 Speaker 1: lot more done. It's a snake's and lighter situation. You're 424 00:21:13,782 --> 00:21:16,422 Speaker 1: never fully focused, but I do think you become more 425 00:21:16,462 --> 00:21:18,181 Speaker 1: efficient because you have to be. 426 00:21:18,542 --> 00:21:19,942 Speaker 2: So do you think you're worse at your job since 427 00:21:19,942 --> 00:21:20,581 Speaker 2: you had babies? 428 00:21:20,702 --> 00:21:22,741 Speaker 3: Oh that's such a good question, Jesse. Do you have 429 00:21:22,782 --> 00:21:23,382 Speaker 3: an answer. 430 00:21:23,782 --> 00:21:27,462 Speaker 2: I don't think it has impacted how I do my job. 431 00:21:27,702 --> 00:21:31,621 Speaker 2: I initially saw this and went, oh, this can be weaponized. 432 00:21:32,022 --> 00:21:33,582 Speaker 2: Like I was a little bit. 433 00:21:33,502 --> 00:21:35,182 Speaker 3: Like Ellen, it's bad for the call. 434 00:21:35,341 --> 00:21:36,141 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 435 00:21:36,262 --> 00:21:38,582 Speaker 3: My second thought was that Gray's is still going on. 436 00:21:39,141 --> 00:21:41,782 Speaker 2: I had no idea. I had no idea, but I thought, 437 00:21:41,821 --> 00:21:47,821 Speaker 2: I don't want some CEO thinking mums aren't valuable in 438 00:21:47,861 --> 00:21:50,302 Speaker 2: the workforce, or they've always got their head somewhere else, 439 00:21:50,621 --> 00:21:51,742 Speaker 2: or they're chaotic. 440 00:21:51,821 --> 00:21:54,061 Speaker 3: I don't, I don't, and I don't think that's true. 441 00:21:54,222 --> 00:21:57,262 Speaker 1: Like I always think of this quote which I thought 442 00:21:57,262 --> 00:21:59,502 Speaker 1: was from Gwyneth Paltrow, but I believe it's actually from 443 00:21:59,502 --> 00:22:02,222 Speaker 1: Elise Loanan, who used to be the chief content officer 444 00:22:02,262 --> 00:22:04,662 Speaker 1: at Goop with Gwyneth Paltrow, and she said that at 445 00:22:04,702 --> 00:22:08,861 Speaker 1: Goop they always looked to hire moms because they said 446 00:22:09,341 --> 00:22:12,101 Speaker 1: moms make for good hires. The amount that I can 447 00:22:12,141 --> 00:22:15,382 Speaker 1: accomplish in twenty minutes is truly shocking to me, and 448 00:22:15,422 --> 00:22:17,862 Speaker 1: that is true. I do feel like my brain now 449 00:22:18,061 --> 00:22:21,742 Speaker 1: is always racing along, and I'm brushing my teeth thinking 450 00:22:21,782 --> 00:22:24,061 Speaker 1: about something that I need to do for work and 451 00:22:24,141 --> 00:22:26,141 Speaker 1: something I need to do for the kids, whereas before 452 00:22:26,222 --> 00:22:28,621 Speaker 1: I might have just been brushing my teeth thinking some 453 00:22:28,742 --> 00:22:30,982 Speaker 1: nice thoughts about what I was going to have for dinner. 454 00:22:31,222 --> 00:22:34,061 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a great quote by a philosopher named 455 00:22:34,101 --> 00:22:36,701 Speaker 2: Agnes Khaled who says giving birth to a baby is 456 00:22:36,782 --> 00:22:39,542 Speaker 2: literally splitting into and it is not always clear which 457 00:22:39,621 --> 00:22:43,261 Speaker 2: one your eye goes with, Like it is a case 458 00:22:43,341 --> 00:22:45,861 Speaker 2: of my mum always said that the super power she 459 00:22:45,901 --> 00:22:47,662 Speaker 2: wanted was to be in two places at once. It's 460 00:22:47,661 --> 00:22:49,942 Speaker 2: his desperation to be in two places at once, which 461 00:22:49,982 --> 00:22:51,982 Speaker 2: is a really new thing. 462 00:22:52,262 --> 00:22:54,942 Speaker 1: I don't have that desperation really now that my kids 463 00:22:54,942 --> 00:22:57,501 Speaker 1: are at school. I'm very happy that they're at school 464 00:22:57,542 --> 00:23:01,502 Speaker 1: and that I'm at work, so I don't feel bifurcated. 465 00:23:00,782 --> 00:23:01,381 Speaker 3: In that way. 466 00:23:01,901 --> 00:23:05,341 Speaker 1: I just feel like my brain is always thinking about 467 00:23:05,462 --> 00:23:07,742 Speaker 1: multiple things in a way that it wasn't before. 468 00:23:08,341 --> 00:23:11,141 Speaker 2: So there was this article in The Cut last year 469 00:23:11,262 --> 00:23:14,381 Speaker 2: by Anastasia Berg that was called what if motherhood isn't 470 00:23:14,381 --> 00:23:16,022 Speaker 2: transformative at all? Did she read this? 471 00:23:16,182 --> 00:23:16,502 Speaker 3: Oh? 472 00:23:16,542 --> 00:23:19,702 Speaker 2: No, it was so interesting, she said. We're often told 473 00:23:19,742 --> 00:23:22,701 Speaker 2: that becoming a parent will alter one's identity. For me, 474 00:23:22,942 --> 00:23:26,902 Speaker 2: the change never came, and she says, I had my baby, 475 00:23:27,101 --> 00:23:29,782 Speaker 2: I'm looking around, I'm asking the same questions. I have 476 00:23:29,821 --> 00:23:32,221 Speaker 2: the same friends, the same problems, and I'm interested in 477 00:23:32,262 --> 00:23:35,222 Speaker 2: the same petty gossip. And I wondered if we talk 478 00:23:35,262 --> 00:23:40,302 Speaker 2: about motherhood sometimes in such absolutes, as though there is 479 00:23:40,341 --> 00:23:44,661 Speaker 2: this universal experience of becoming a mother and some things 480 00:23:44,661 --> 00:23:46,981 Speaker 2: that you say, you go, oh my goodness, I feel 481 00:23:47,341 --> 00:23:51,622 Speaker 2: so sane about this very specific human experience. But I said, 482 00:23:51,661 --> 00:23:54,421 Speaker 2: somewhere in between these two, it's like, I don't know 483 00:23:54,502 --> 00:23:57,342 Speaker 2: if I do feel like I'm a completely different person 484 00:23:57,782 --> 00:24:00,702 Speaker 2: who's a different person at work than I was before 485 00:24:00,742 --> 00:24:04,141 Speaker 2: I had a baby. And it was like afterwards, I 486 00:24:04,182 --> 00:24:07,542 Speaker 2: remember walking around and going, oh, I was so worried 487 00:24:07,542 --> 00:24:09,901 Speaker 2: I'd have a totally different identity, and I still feel 488 00:24:09,901 --> 00:24:13,342 Speaker 2: like myself. I never had that identity crisis. Maybe I've 489 00:24:13,341 --> 00:24:16,181 Speaker 2: had like work crisis time crisis. But like I have 490 00:24:16,222 --> 00:24:17,861 Speaker 2: felt like Jesse the whole way through. 491 00:24:18,061 --> 00:24:21,421 Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can at work to prove that 492 00:24:21,502 --> 00:24:24,581 Speaker 1: I'm not a different person, and I'm almost swinging to 493 00:24:24,621 --> 00:24:28,061 Speaker 1: the opposite extreme. So, for instance, I think a lot 494 00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:30,981 Speaker 1: of my colleagues at work do not know that I 495 00:24:31,061 --> 00:24:34,221 Speaker 1: have children, and I kind of like it that way. 496 00:24:35,022 --> 00:24:37,981 Speaker 1: I very much like to categorize the different parts of 497 00:24:38,022 --> 00:24:39,422 Speaker 1: my life and keep them separate. 498 00:24:39,581 --> 00:24:41,782 Speaker 2: They're going to be so confused about why you're hosting 499 00:24:41,782 --> 00:24:43,421 Speaker 2: this podcast, Familia. They're gonna be like, why is she 500 00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:45,221 Speaker 2: on a parenting oulut I got. 501 00:24:45,061 --> 00:24:45,821 Speaker 3: To be confused. 502 00:24:47,742 --> 00:24:50,061 Speaker 1: I just don't like to talk about it at work. 503 00:24:50,381 --> 00:24:53,182 Speaker 1: I think it's because I'm sensitive to the idea of, oh, 504 00:24:53,222 --> 00:24:56,181 Speaker 1: she's always talking about her kids. And I remember that 505 00:24:56,262 --> 00:25:00,742 Speaker 1: before I had kids, I would be resentful of mothers 506 00:25:00,742 --> 00:25:03,862 Speaker 1: who left work early to pick their kids up from school. 507 00:25:04,422 --> 00:25:06,941 Speaker 3: I'd roll my eyes. I'd say, they're not working as 508 00:25:06,982 --> 00:25:07,782 Speaker 3: hard as I am. 509 00:25:08,101 --> 00:25:09,621 Speaker 1: Now I know that's not the case, because I know 510 00:25:09,702 --> 00:25:11,382 Speaker 1: that they're picking them up from school and then they're 511 00:25:11,422 --> 00:25:14,061 Speaker 1: going home and they're doing a second shift. Yeah, but 512 00:25:14,502 --> 00:25:17,941 Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can to prove that I am 513 00:25:17,982 --> 00:25:20,262 Speaker 1: the same person as I was before kids, and maybe 514 00:25:20,302 --> 00:25:22,942 Speaker 1: it's a little exhausting. It doesn't seem like you were 515 00:25:23,022 --> 00:25:24,461 Speaker 1: working that hard to keep that. 516 00:25:24,621 --> 00:25:27,821 Speaker 2: No, I still feel like the same person, and I 517 00:25:27,861 --> 00:25:30,341 Speaker 2: think my definition of one hundred percent has changed. 518 00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:31,901 Speaker 3: I reckon that's what it is, Okay, Tommy. 519 00:25:32,061 --> 00:25:35,941 Speaker 2: It's like, one hundred percent doesn't mean that you're in 520 00:25:35,942 --> 00:25:37,701 Speaker 2: the office for twelve hours. And if there was an 521 00:25:37,702 --> 00:25:41,221 Speaker 2: opportunity to come up tonight before Luna, I would have 522 00:25:41,302 --> 00:25:43,461 Speaker 2: probably leaned into it, and now I can't, which is 523 00:25:43,462 --> 00:25:45,981 Speaker 2: totally fine. But that doesn't mean that the projects that 524 00:25:46,022 --> 00:25:50,141 Speaker 2: I choose to do I don't put full, unabashed effort 525 00:25:50,222 --> 00:25:53,341 Speaker 2: into like I still absolutely do. It's just maybe I 526 00:25:53,422 --> 00:25:54,222 Speaker 2: do less projects. 527 00:25:54,302 --> 00:25:56,302 Speaker 1: Are you thinking in the back of your head about 528 00:25:56,302 --> 00:25:59,222 Speaker 1: whether Luna will eat frozen peas for dinner? Be honest, 529 00:25:59,381 --> 00:26:00,141 Speaker 1: I'm actually not. 530 00:26:00,341 --> 00:26:03,421 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I think that my brain might be broken. 531 00:26:03,702 --> 00:26:06,101 Speaker 2: I think I'm actually quite good, and I know this 532 00:26:06,182 --> 00:26:08,142 Speaker 2: is something you're not meant to say. In twenty twenty five, 533 00:26:09,702 --> 00:26:13,461 Speaker 2: very good at focus. I look at iPhone, do not disturbe, 534 00:26:13,502 --> 00:26:16,302 Speaker 2: do not disturb, and look. Sometimes, especially if she's sick, 535 00:26:16,341 --> 00:26:18,022 Speaker 2: I find that really hard. I find it hard to 536 00:26:18,022 --> 00:26:20,542 Speaker 2: be or if she's been upset or whatever. But you know, 537 00:26:20,621 --> 00:26:23,222 Speaker 2: Maya talks about ADHD and her experience with the way 538 00:26:23,222 --> 00:26:25,462 Speaker 2: her brain works, and I always think my brain is 539 00:26:25,462 --> 00:26:28,341 Speaker 2: a complete opposite. Like I feel as though I can 540 00:26:28,341 --> 00:26:30,621 Speaker 2: sit down, focus, I'm here when I'm here, and I'm 541 00:26:30,621 --> 00:26:32,262 Speaker 2: there when I'm there. I feel like I can do that. 542 00:26:32,821 --> 00:26:36,022 Speaker 2: It's time for our recommendations of the week, Amelia, What 543 00:26:36,061 --> 00:26:36,581 Speaker 2: have you got? 544 00:26:36,782 --> 00:26:39,341 Speaker 1: I came home the other day check the mail and 545 00:26:39,742 --> 00:26:43,022 Speaker 1: there was a National Geographic Kids Magazine in the mail, 546 00:26:43,061 --> 00:26:45,221 Speaker 1: and I thought, what a thoughtful gift from a sort 547 00:26:45,262 --> 00:26:48,701 Speaker 1: of benevolent care of my children in our orbit, who 548 00:26:48,821 --> 00:26:51,821 Speaker 1: just thought they needed some education. And I asked my 549 00:26:52,061 --> 00:26:53,742 Speaker 1: partner if you knew anything about it. He told me, 550 00:26:53,782 --> 00:26:57,621 Speaker 1: you got a deal through McDonald's for it. So that's 551 00:26:57,661 --> 00:27:02,061 Speaker 1: why we're now subscribed to National Geographic Kids Magazine mini magazine. 552 00:27:02,101 --> 00:27:03,382 Speaker 3: He goes to McDonald's a lot. 553 00:27:03,422 --> 00:27:06,581 Speaker 1: I think they have some kind of VIP experience where 554 00:27:06,581 --> 00:27:11,542 Speaker 1: you get free magazine subscriptions. Anyway, I've been delighted by 555 00:27:11,542 --> 00:27:14,262 Speaker 1: this product. A couple of reasons why I love it. 556 00:27:14,262 --> 00:27:17,422 Speaker 1: It's a little kid's magazine, with puzzles and weird facts. 557 00:27:17,422 --> 00:27:18,702 Speaker 2: So it's written four kids. 558 00:27:18,742 --> 00:27:21,502 Speaker 1: It's written four kids, it comes every month, and it's 559 00:27:21,542 --> 00:27:23,861 Speaker 1: got lots of good photos in it of weird insects. 560 00:27:24,101 --> 00:27:27,302 Speaker 1: I love that about it. But a young person literally 561 00:27:27,422 --> 00:27:29,702 Speaker 1: asked me the other day, someone who works at mom 562 00:27:29,702 --> 00:27:34,061 Speaker 1: and Mia, what a magazine was, and I paused for 563 00:27:34,141 --> 00:27:36,302 Speaker 1: a second. So I figure I should probably explain on 564 00:27:36,341 --> 00:27:38,701 Speaker 1: this podcast for anyone who doesn't know. I used to 565 00:27:38,782 --> 00:27:41,302 Speaker 1: work with a boss at a magazine who described magazines 566 00:27:41,302 --> 00:27:43,902 Speaker 1: as the ultimate technology. They never run out of batteries, 567 00:27:44,542 --> 00:27:47,542 Speaker 1: you can fold them under your arm, and they don't 568 00:27:47,581 --> 00:27:48,941 Speaker 1: require a USB cord. 569 00:27:49,222 --> 00:27:51,142 Speaker 3: What else could you want from anything? 570 00:27:51,742 --> 00:27:53,702 Speaker 1: True? And it turns out I can't believe I'm having 571 00:27:53,702 --> 00:27:55,542 Speaker 1: to explain this, but I think in twenty twenty five 572 00:27:55,621 --> 00:27:58,342 Speaker 1: I do. The great thing about magazines is you can 573 00:27:58,422 --> 00:28:01,502 Speaker 1: take them to a cafe or to a sports game. 574 00:28:01,661 --> 00:28:05,021 Speaker 1: You do not require a power point, and then you 575 00:28:05,061 --> 00:28:10,022 Speaker 1: can just entertain a child with this most old of technici. 576 00:28:10,621 --> 00:28:12,982 Speaker 2: Throw it in the backseat when they're winging. 577 00:28:13,222 --> 00:28:16,821 Speaker 3: Yes, gather around and listen to the law of magazines. 578 00:28:17,141 --> 00:28:19,221 Speaker 1: Anyway, I also have one other thing to tell you, 579 00:28:19,302 --> 00:28:21,782 Speaker 1: which is that a Pangoland's tongue can be up to 580 00:28:21,821 --> 00:28:24,182 Speaker 1: seventy one centimeters in length, and that's almost as long 581 00:28:24,182 --> 00:28:24,861 Speaker 1: as its body. 582 00:28:25,061 --> 00:28:27,861 Speaker 2: So that's fascinating. See, these are things that we should 583 00:28:27,901 --> 00:28:30,262 Speaker 2: all know. This is why I love having kids around, 584 00:28:30,262 --> 00:28:31,422 Speaker 2: because they're full of fun. 585 00:28:31,262 --> 00:28:34,102 Speaker 1: Facts, and the National Geographic for Kids will teach. 586 00:28:33,942 --> 00:28:34,502 Speaker 3: You these things. 587 00:28:34,782 --> 00:28:38,902 Speaker 2: My recommendation is very, very basic. Amelia, when you were 588 00:28:38,902 --> 00:28:41,622 Speaker 2: in the baby baby trenches, did you ever play the 589 00:28:41,661 --> 00:28:42,542 Speaker 2: Happy Song? No? 590 00:28:42,622 --> 00:28:43,461 Speaker 3: I don't know what that is. 591 00:28:43,622 --> 00:28:45,981 Speaker 2: Okay, I worry that people haven't heard of a happy 592 00:28:45,982 --> 00:28:48,902 Speaker 2: song when it's the only hack. So do you know 593 00:28:48,942 --> 00:28:50,461 Speaker 2: that artist? Image and Hate? 594 00:28:50,582 --> 00:28:52,502 Speaker 1: I don't know any other Okay, image and hate. 595 00:28:52,542 --> 00:28:55,102 Speaker 2: Do you ever watch the oc Amelia? I thought you're 596 00:28:55,102 --> 00:28:55,622 Speaker 2: a millennial. 597 00:28:55,702 --> 00:28:58,942 Speaker 3: I'm an elder millennial. I'm waiting magazines. 598 00:28:59,982 --> 00:29:02,661 Speaker 2: Okay. Image in Hepe is this person who wrote like 599 00:29:02,782 --> 00:29:05,662 Speaker 2: actual good adult music. But she has written this song. 600 00:29:05,742 --> 00:29:08,302 Speaker 2: I don't know when. It is called the happy Song, 601 00:29:08,342 --> 00:29:10,982 Speaker 2: and it is designed to make babies stop crying. It's 602 00:29:10,982 --> 00:29:11,902 Speaker 2: like I fell in a. 603 00:29:11,902 --> 00:29:15,422 Speaker 3: Say it was designed to make babies. I was like, Bessie, no. 604 00:29:15,502 --> 00:29:17,822 Speaker 2: It's the opposite. You'll put that on and it's not 605 00:29:17,942 --> 00:29:21,742 Speaker 2: arousing at all. It's like got little weird little sounds 606 00:29:21,822 --> 00:29:23,542 Speaker 2: and the tone of her voice, in the tone of 607 00:29:23,542 --> 00:29:27,181 Speaker 2: the sounds is meant to do something to bring okay crying. 608 00:29:27,262 --> 00:29:27,462 Speaker 1: Right. 609 00:29:27,502 --> 00:29:30,262 Speaker 2: So I saw this on TikTok, I think before I 610 00:29:30,302 --> 00:29:32,102 Speaker 2: had Luna, And so every time she's crying in the 611 00:29:32,102 --> 00:29:34,181 Speaker 2: car or whatever, I put on a happy song. I 612 00:29:34,222 --> 00:29:37,902 Speaker 2: reckon it's got eighty five percent success, right, it is 613 00:29:38,182 --> 00:29:39,181 Speaker 2: really really good. 614 00:29:39,502 --> 00:29:43,181 Speaker 1: This reminds me of a bonus recommendation I have. Oh, 615 00:29:43,222 --> 00:29:47,502 Speaker 1: there is a jewel album of Lalabish. 616 00:29:47,102 --> 00:29:50,102 Speaker 2: Jewel as in yeah, yeah. 617 00:29:49,982 --> 00:29:57,902 Speaker 1: Yeah, the lyrics anyway, it's lallabies. And if you have 618 00:29:58,062 --> 00:30:00,502 Speaker 1: kids who are small and who nap in the car, 619 00:30:00,542 --> 00:30:03,741 Speaker 1: which obviously I would never have done because kids require 620 00:30:03,782 --> 00:30:06,502 Speaker 1: good sleep HyG. But you know, hypothetically, if they were 621 00:30:06,582 --> 00:30:09,862 Speaker 1: napping in the car, you put it on. Children truly 622 00:30:10,022 --> 00:30:12,902 Speaker 1: cannot get through the first track of the album without 623 00:30:12,902 --> 00:30:16,142 Speaker 1: falling asleep. There needs to be like a handout at 624 00:30:16,142 --> 00:30:18,102 Speaker 1: the hospital that tells you these things like this. 625 00:30:18,422 --> 00:30:20,302 Speaker 2: People haven't heard of it. And I'm like, even at 626 00:30:20,342 --> 00:30:23,741 Speaker 2: nearly two, if she's losing it, I will put on 627 00:30:23,822 --> 00:30:26,982 Speaker 2: and she'll go no happy song because she knows wow. 628 00:30:26,982 --> 00:30:27,902 Speaker 3: But then she's happy. 629 00:30:27,942 --> 00:30:29,702 Speaker 2: But then she's like, damn it, I've stopped crying. 630 00:30:29,742 --> 00:30:30,782 Speaker 3: Does it make you happy? 631 00:30:31,182 --> 00:30:33,542 Speaker 2: It makes me happy if she stops crying, But the 632 00:30:33,582 --> 00:30:36,902 Speaker 2: sound of it I now associate with desperation. So in 633 00:30:36,942 --> 00:30:39,102 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, it's like, I will be so 634 00:30:39,702 --> 00:30:42,822 Speaker 2: happy when I never hear it again. That is all 635 00:30:42,862 --> 00:30:45,782 Speaker 2: we have time for on Parenting out Loud today. Our 636 00:30:45,862 --> 00:30:49,582 Speaker 2: MoMA Mia studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. 637 00:30:49,982 --> 00:30:53,022 Speaker 2: Visit Fenton Andfentin dot com dot au and we will 638 00:30:53,022 --> 00:30:58,342 Speaker 2: see you next Saturday. Bye.