Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: It was a doctor just saying to me, you're going
Speaker 1: to have to snap out of it in like in
Speaker 1: two months, you're going to have a baby and you
Speaker 1: have to look after this baby, and you're in you
Speaker 1: can't look after yourself, Like what are you thinking? And
Speaker 1: it was that doctor speaking very bluntly to me that
Speaker 1: made me kind of go, I have to get my
Speaker 1: shit together.
Speaker 2: Katie Gallaher's life has been shaped by heartbreak and resilience.
Speaker 2: She lost her first partner while she was pregnant, and
Speaker 2: those early experiences of grief and raising a child taught
Speaker 2: her about empathy, determination, and the kind of groundedness that
Speaker 2: comes from living through real struggle. Politics wasn't something she
Speaker 2: set out to do. Instead, it found her, but she
Speaker 2: brought her whole self to it, shaped by life not ambition.
Speaker 2: Through that journey, she's risen to hold some of the
Speaker 2: most significant roles in the Albanese government Minister for Finance,
Speaker 2: Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service, Vice President
Speaker 2: of the Executive Council and since twenty twenty five Minister
Speaker 2: for Government Services. In this episode of No Filter, we
Speaker 2: really get to know the woman behind the politician. Katie
Speaker 2: shares the lessons she's learned, how her personal story informs
Speaker 2: her approach to public service, and what it means to
Speaker 2: undertake life with honesty, heart and a genuine desire to
Speaker 2: make a difference. While I welcome you, Katie, thanks so much.
Speaker 2: I am Katie, but I am not honorable, and you
Speaker 2: are the honorable. You are the honorable Katie Gallaher. You
Speaker 2: are the Minister for Finance, you are the Minister for Women,
Speaker 2: Minister for the Public Service. Okay, I don't know what
Speaker 2: any of that means, but I do know that you're
Speaker 2: very busy and we're very lucky to have you.
Speaker 1: Well, just there's loads of busy women right around the country.
Speaker 2: But it's lovely to be here. Really. What does your
Speaker 2: day look like? What have you done today?
Speaker 1: So today has been a pretty normal day. So lot
Speaker 1: on I did. Started with a radio interview, jumped on
Speaker 1: a plane to Sydney, done some meetings at different ends
Speaker 1: of Sydney. So I've been marching around with a giant umbrella,
Speaker 1: knocking in puddles and stuff and then I've come here.
Speaker 1: So it's been a full day and lots of different
Speaker 1: you know, lots of different subjects, different meetings. I did
Speaker 1: an ABC News interview at one of my meetings, squash
Speaker 1: that in. It's a very varied you know, there isn't
Speaker 1: like a normal day, I think, but.
Speaker 2: The days are start at what time, oh, pretty early.
Speaker 1: If I'm not doing an early radio interview or TV interview,
Speaker 1: I'd be talking with GYM or the PM or.
Speaker 2: Some colleagues pretty early.
Speaker 1: So I'm usually I get up and I'm just there's
Speaker 1: no kind of lounging and having a you know, having
Speaker 1: a sip of coffee or slowly waking up eyes open.
Speaker 1: I'm not the option to snooze, not really. Occasionally, when
Speaker 1: you do have a day where you can do that,
Speaker 1: it is super nice luxury, it is, and you really
Speaker 1: appreciate when you talk.
Speaker 2: About where you're traveling from, is that Canbra.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm really fortunate in that regard. So when
Speaker 1: Parliament's sitting, I'm Canberra based.
Speaker 2: And also born and raised in Canberra, which made me
Speaker 2: think you really had no choice but to end up
Speaker 2: in politics. Did you grow up immersed in that world.
Speaker 1: A little bit like my parents, but more from my
Speaker 1: parents and their influence. Like my parents were both interested
Speaker 1: in politics. My dad was a public servant, but my
Speaker 1: mum was a community worker.
Speaker 2: That's Betsy, Yeah. And your dad Charles Charles. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And they had moved from the UK. They moved to
Speaker 1: Canberra in the late sixties.
Speaker 2: And why did they choose Canberra.
Speaker 1: Well, as parently to do with my dad's asthma, so
Speaker 1: that from the UK. I don't know why then Canberra
Speaker 1: because it is freezing for dry, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2: Dry, but very dry. In fact, it's so dry.
Speaker 1: The rain today in Sydney has been so nice. But yeah,
Speaker 1: So they had moved. I think Australia was a place
Speaker 1: of opportunity, away from far, away from their previous life.
Speaker 1: And they just started together vine New Zealand. They actually
Speaker 1: met on a boat going to New Zealand. Oh I
Speaker 1: loved you ten pound poems. Was that that or after that?
Speaker 1: It was? It was after that And they were just
Speaker 1: separately going to New Zealand and met on the boat,
Speaker 1: fell in love, lived for a while in New Zealand
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 2: Moved to Canberra.
Speaker 1: And then you came along my sister in New Zealand
Speaker 1: and then I came along shortly after that, so I
Speaker 1: was born in nineteen seventy so yeah, they'd been in
Speaker 1: Canberra about a year and my dad had a job
Speaker 1: in the Parliamentary Library, so he was around politics. But
Speaker 1: I never, I don't know, I never thought I would
Speaker 1: be a politician.
Speaker 2: What did you think you would do? So you were
Speaker 2: quite musical growing up? Yeah, I did. I did play
Speaker 2: the cello.
Speaker 1: My mum wanted I think she really wanted us as
Speaker 1: children to learn the piano and the cello or anything
Speaker 1: any music. And I was I was kind of I
Speaker 1: don't know, I wasn't a rebellious child. So you know,
Speaker 1: your mum goes, Katie, Yeah, learning the cello, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh okay, well okay, I'd go lugging this giant instrument around,
Speaker 1: bigger than you.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I wish for a violin. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 2: played the violin horrendously. Well, I just.
Speaker 1: Loved the look of everyone walking around with their little
Speaker 1: violin bags.
Speaker 2: Then that would be me and this thing. So at
Speaker 2: what point did you so your mum, Betsy was I
Speaker 2: think renowned for having a very active social conscience. Is
Speaker 2: that right to and what how did that manifest in
Speaker 2: your life?
Speaker 1: So, yeah, Mum was a big yeah, just involve. I
Speaker 1: think she got to Canberra and she ended up having
Speaker 1: four children under five. My two brothers came after Claire
Speaker 1: and I and they were the first house in the street.
Speaker 1: There was no services, no supports. She was from the UK.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine how isolating that would be like to
Speaker 1: get my head around that, so far from everything you
Speaker 1: knew for young children, a husband that worked all the time,
Speaker 1: in a street without any you know, she told me
Speaker 1: you'd have to walk quite a long way to get
Speaker 1: to the phone box and anyway.
Speaker 2: Sounded horrendous.
Speaker 1: But so she went about sort of building services and supports,
Speaker 1: like getting women together, getting children together, and from that,
Speaker 1: you know, she just became this kind of community dynamo
Speaker 1: that if there wasn't something there, she would build it
Speaker 1: or get other people to kind of create the social
Speaker 1: infrastructure that helped people.
Speaker 2: And so I think for her, even.
Speaker 1: As we got older, she was always rescuing things, whether
Speaker 1: it be animals or children, And so we grew up
Speaker 1: with a lot of different animals and a lot of
Speaker 1: different children in our house who she usually was trying
Speaker 1: to give the mum a break to make that relationship work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're never too sure what you were going to come
Speaker 1: home to or who you were going to come home to.
Speaker 1: And Dad was a very easy going persons because I
Speaker 1: don't know how much he was consulted about any of this,
Speaker 1: but you know, and it was back in the day
Speaker 1: when nothing was regulated, so you could just go and say,
Speaker 1: I'll take your kids for yes, you know, yes.
Speaker 2: Two weeks, three weeks. And you could have a dog, yes,
Speaker 2: without it being registered with the council. And you could
Speaker 2: have a cat that was allowed to go outside.
Speaker 1: Yes, you could have all that. We had, kangaroos, we
Speaker 1: had sheep. It was all in our back garden. Yeah,
Speaker 1: guinea pigs, mice, you know, you name it. We kind
Speaker 1: of was the house where everything was happening.
Speaker 2: And so you had this template because I often think
Speaker 2: parents is often an emphasis, and particularly I think for
Speaker 2: women of you know, we like to say I tell
Speaker 2: my children this, and I tell them that, and I
Speaker 2: tell them they're self worth. And but what we learn
Speaker 2: most from is what is modeled for us, I think.
Speaker 2: And so through your mother you had this modeling of
Speaker 2: if something didn't exist, you build it. And also you welcome, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you welcome those who were in need. Absolutely. And then
Speaker 2: at what point did young Kadi Gallaher go, I think
Speaker 2: there's a life for me in politics. Well that sort
Speaker 2: of happened accidentally. I did grow up.
Speaker 1: My dad was a much more introverted character, but he
Speaker 1: still demonstrated sort of the same thing that the same
Speaker 1: work mum did, but in different ways. So he was
Speaker 1: a lifeline counselor and he was you know, he would
Speaker 1: support prisoner families because we didn't have a prison in
Speaker 1: the Act server runs. If you're a prisoner, you got
Speaker 1: sent to New South Wales and.
Speaker 2: He would do a lot of work there.
Speaker 1: So they definitely demonstrated to me and my siblings it
Speaker 1: wasn't enough to just exist in a society. You had
Speaker 1: to participate, you know, you had to involve yourself, you
Speaker 1: had to be a part of it. And so we
Speaker 1: all grew up like that, like my sisters and nurse
Speaker 1: you know, has spent her entire life caring for others
Speaker 1: in a hospital, and I started in in community work,
Speaker 1: so working with people with a disability and I loved that.
Speaker 2: So was that like social work or yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was like a community worker we would break with disability,
Speaker 1: you know, care advocate, so I became a formal advocate
Speaker 1: where you advocate on a person with the disabilities behalf.
Speaker 1: So we were closing down sheltered workshops and big institutions
Speaker 1: and it was a really kind of exciting work and
Speaker 1: I loved that. Then you know, life happens, events happened.
Speaker 1: I joined the Labor Party by then because I'd seen
Speaker 1: things like the Disability Discrimination Act come into being, and
Speaker 1: I knew that was because of a Labor government and
Speaker 1: it was changing people's lives and that really excited me
Speaker 1: and interested me.
Speaker 2: Who was in power then.
Speaker 1: That was under Bob Hawk, Yeah, and it was Susan Ryan,
Speaker 1: who was kind of lead as a minister was leading that.
Speaker 1: But again I'd put the two things together. I could
Speaker 1: see how politics could change people's lives and in this
Speaker 1: case for the better, and that interested me. And I'd
Speaker 1: been at Union done a politics degree, so I understood politics,
Speaker 1: but I hadn't joined a political party. But it was
Speaker 1: at that point that I was like, that's where I belong.
Speaker 1: That's the party that represents my values. And that's when
Speaker 1: I joined that. But I just joined it as anyone
Speaker 1: else you know, like a member. I never thought i'd
Speaker 1: be a politician, but you know, life happens, and sometimes
Speaker 1: you come to a big moment or a fork in
Speaker 1: the road and life sent you on another path. You
Speaker 1: weren't expecting it and you didn't seek it out.
Speaker 2: What was that moment for you?
Speaker 1: Well, that was when so my partner died in a
Speaker 1: Yeah he at the time, yeah, yeah, So he was
Speaker 1: very active in the labor party. He and I were
Speaker 1: going to get married. I was pregnant with our baby.
Speaker 2: How old were you then?
Speaker 1: I was twenty seven, right, yeah, twenty six, probably twenty six,
Speaker 1: twenty seven. And he would if you'd known us back then,
Speaker 1: he would have been the front person in that, you know,
Speaker 1: he would have been the active kind of I could
Speaker 1: definitely imagine him as a politician. He was more extroverted, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and yeah, just involved in everything, whereas I was your
Speaker 1: average branch member, just going along having a nice glass
Speaker 1: of wine, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And what was his interest? What was Brett's
Speaker 2: interest in politics? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well he was he was a big union guy. So
Speaker 1: he he'd worked as a union officer, he'd worked for
Speaker 1: the nurses union.
Speaker 2: Just before the accident.
Speaker 1: He was about to work with the Public Service Union,
Speaker 1: so he'd very much come from a kind of workers'
Speaker 1: rights you know, position Act you wish, Yeah, so the
Speaker 1: equivalent in the Act. But he was well connected, you know,
Speaker 1: and he was great with people, and he was enthusiastic,
Speaker 1: and it was all the things that you can see
Speaker 1: people working their way up through the labor party.
Speaker 2: He had all of that and obviously other personal attributes
Speaker 2: as well that made you fall in love with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean interesting, you know, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's been a long time since he passed away, but yeah,
Speaker 1: we were just like any other young couple in there,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: So you're age, everything's ascendant. Really, it's one of those
Speaker 2: sweet spots in life. Both of you are on an
Speaker 2: upward trajectory with each other and with your lives. I
Speaker 2: did not know this about you, didn't you. I did
Speaker 2: not know, And it explains I think so much of
Speaker 2: how you're described, which is always very empathetic and someone
Speaker 2: who has a very grounded understanding of life. And I
Speaker 2: think that often that comes from people because they also
Speaker 2: have an understanding of death. And that is what happened
Speaker 2: with Brett. What happened. So thank you for that that's
Speaker 2: very nice of you to say that.
Speaker 1: And there is something in experiencing death at a young
Speaker 1: age that shapes you. I definitely think that is true.
Speaker 2: So Brett had ridden.
Speaker 1: He was a bike rider, like road bike rider, and
Speaker 1: he and I had been down to essentially near was
Speaker 1: in Mount Beauty, so around there Beautiful in what was
Speaker 1: called the ord As Challenge.
Speaker 2: I think it's like a two hundred kilometer bike rade.
Speaker 2: My husband has ridden. He's also a cyclist. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so when I was discovering this about you, it was chilling. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he'd just done that race and we decided to
Speaker 1: kind of take the slow road back to Canberra, which
Speaker 1: was through the coast road, so up the south coast.
Speaker 2: So you're coming from the high country in Victoria exactly,
Speaker 2: you're making your way back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we thought we'd have an extra night away,
Speaker 1: so we stopped at Marimbula and for the night and
Speaker 1: then we're going to stay. I think we were going
Speaker 1: to stay a couple of nights and then head back
Speaker 1: to Canberra. And he went out for a bike ride
Speaker 1: that morning. So the first morning we were there and
Speaker 1: we arranged to meet at the beach he would finish
Speaker 1: his ride and have a swim. I would wait for
Speaker 1: him at the beach and he just never showed up,
Speaker 1: and you know, I had to go and try and
Speaker 1: find him. Where it was before mobile phones, it was
Speaker 1: before you know, it's a different world than what you
Speaker 1: have now, where you can sort of track people and
Speaker 1: trace and you know, because I thought, oh, maybe he's
Speaker 1: got a flat tire, he's stuck on the roads, you know,
Speaker 1: he's and there was no way of contacting me. And
Speaker 1: so I went out looking for him and couldn't find him.
Speaker 1: So I rang all the hostspits.
Speaker 2: How did you know where to start to look?
Speaker 1: Well, Mimenbial is pretty small, and I knew he was
Speaker 1: going for about an hour.
Speaker 2: And a half, so i'd be along the coast, probably
Speaker 2: around them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought i'd follow the main roads because
Speaker 1: I think he would have been on those, like he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have gone off on a track. And anyway, I
Speaker 1: couldn't find him. I rang the hospitals. Nobody, you know,
Speaker 1: the two kind of local hospitals. Nobody could help me there,
Speaker 1: And so I just kept driving and driving, getting more
Speaker 1: and more worried because time was, you know, was our
Speaker 1: time to meet up had significantly elapsed, so I knew
Speaker 1: something was wrong, and I turned on the local radio station.
Speaker 2: I heard on the radio that the.
Speaker 1: Police were looking for the relatives of a cyclist who'd
Speaker 1: been killed earlier that morning, and that's how I found out.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, even when I talk about it now,
Speaker 1: it's Abby, our.
Speaker 2: Daughter, who was amazing.
Speaker 1: I was about fourteen weeks pregnant, so it was reasonably early,
Speaker 1: but people knew and we'd been sort of celebrating that.
Speaker 1: It's about it's twenty eight years ago now almost twenty nine,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's still like when I talk through it,
Speaker 1: I can still viscerally remember that day and how it was.
Speaker 2: And then how do you how do you transition out
Speaker 2: of a period like that that is marked by so
Speaker 2: much grief, grief for the loss of bread, grief for
Speaker 2: the loss that you were going to have, the life
Speaker 2: you were going to have. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you're pregnant with your first child. How was that? How
Speaker 2: did you approach that?
Speaker 1: So I was terrible, Like, the real and honest answer
Speaker 1: is I was terrible.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: I've never I hope to never experience that again. But
Speaker 1: I sunk into a very deep depression.
Speaker 2: So as you say.
Speaker 1: I'd gone from thinking, you know, this is my life,
Speaker 1: I'm on this path, and all of a sudden something happens.
Speaker 1: Brett was hit by a car and by someone who'd
Speaker 1: had a restricted license as well, so I shouldn't have
Speaker 1: actually been driving. So there was a lot of this,
Speaker 1: a lot of this how could this happen? So I
Speaker 1: went through that this is very awful, unfair, kind of
Speaker 1: selfish grief, but I don't mean that in a negative way,
Speaker 1: just kind of you're in that zone. And then I
Speaker 1: think I sunk into a much deeper depression that actually
Speaker 1: I needed to get help to get out of I
Speaker 1: was I was in, you know, it wasn't I stopped eating,
Speaker 1: I stopped drinking, I stopped communicating with anyone, and I
Speaker 1: was pregnant.
Speaker 2: I ended up in hospital dehydrated.
Speaker 1: I ended up only being let out if I agreed
Speaker 1: to see a psychiatrist. And then I got in the
Speaker 1: high risk pregnancy clinic and they didn't know what to
Speaker 1: do with me. So all of that happened, and in
Speaker 1: the end, I went on antidepressants at the right time,
Speaker 1: and that got me in reasonable shape, along with some
Speaker 1: therapy and being left to myself. Really I moved into
Speaker 1: a house by myself because I couldn't go back to
Speaker 1: where we lived, and I just bunkered down.
Speaker 2: And where were your parents and your family in that period,
Speaker 2: and your union family and your ALP family. So they
Speaker 2: were all around.
Speaker 1: I mean Dad had passed away a couple of years
Speaker 1: before that, and they were all wanting to help, but
Speaker 1: I was so into my grief nobody really could. I had,
Speaker 1: you know, friends would wait outside for me to open
Speaker 1: the door, and I just wouldn't open the door because
Speaker 1: I couldn't confront what was going on. Like I just
Speaker 1: felt so sideswiped and it was so diffent, you know,
Speaker 1: it was just unimaginable. And then to have people looking
Speaker 1: at me and feeling sorry for me would tip.
Speaker 2: Me over the deep.
Speaker 1: And so I think that was really hard for my
Speaker 1: family and friends because at that time they wanted to
Speaker 1: help me a lot, and I couldn't accept their help.
Speaker 1: I had to and I'm still a bit like this.
Speaker 1: When something difficult happens, I have to work through it
Speaker 1: myself to get out of it. And that's what happened,
Speaker 1: with the help of some medication, and it was a
Speaker 1: doctor just saying to me, you're going to have to
Speaker 1: snap out of it in like, I don't know, in
Speaker 1: two months time with your baby coming, you're going to
Speaker 1: have a baby, and you have to look after this baby,
Speaker 1: and you're in you can't look after yourself, Like what
Speaker 1: are you thinking? And it was that doctor speaking very
Speaker 1: bluntly to me that made me kind of go, I
Speaker 1: have to get my shit together, like this is real
Speaker 1: and I have to get myself together. And but I
Speaker 1: didn't do any pre natal care.
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't do anything about delivery, you know,
Speaker 1: labor and delivery.
Speaker 2: Class So how to go to the classes? I couldn't.
Speaker 2: You couldn't.
Speaker 1: You couldn't, So I knew nothing, which is probably better.
Speaker 2: And also because if you went into the classes and
Speaker 2: you didn't have the man who was the father of
Speaker 2: your baby with you, you would have to do so
Speaker 2: much explaining that just the thought of that, yeah it's
Speaker 2: not cropping. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I didn't do any of that. I had no
Speaker 1: connection to anything. And in fact, the day I went
Speaker 1: into labor, I rang my sister and told her I
Speaker 1: had a stomach ache, and she like, Katie, I think
Speaker 1: you have more than a stomach ache, and went and
Speaker 1: that's when it dawned on me, like I was so dislocated.
Speaker 1: It's really odd. I don't know how to describe it. Anyway,
Speaker 1: the minute that baby came out, I tell you, everything,
Speaker 1: everything went up, you know everything, I just I had
Speaker 1: something else.
Speaker 2: You return to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was almost almost immediate. Like I was still
Speaker 1: very lonely and on my own and wanting to do that,
Speaker 1: but I had this amazing thing baby, and yeah, and
Speaker 1: she was precious not just to me, but to Brett's family,
Speaker 1: to my family. And even though it's a lot to
Speaker 1: ask a little baby to do, she did a lot
Speaker 1: of healing without knowing. She didn't know, she didn't know,
Speaker 1: but she did. And she continues to be like that.
Speaker 2: And babies are like that anyway. When a baby comes
Speaker 2: into your orbit, it's like staring at a fire. Everyone
Speaker 2: just you can't help. Yeah, there's something magical about it.
Speaker 1: Totally and everyone, everyone almost felt like a whole Camber
Speaker 1: rejoiced when he was born. And she was healthy and
Speaker 1: gorgeous and brought a lot, you know, brought me back
Speaker 1: back to the real world.
Speaker 2: After the break, Katie, She's house. Stepping back into the
Speaker 2: real world was her unexpected pathway to politics. When you
Speaker 2: came back to the real world, what was that process
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 1: It was hard to kind of reintegrate still because you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't like being the center of things and it
Speaker 1: felt it just felt very exposed because of you know,
Speaker 1: everyone knew your story. But a lot of people had
Speaker 1: really helped me when I was unable to help myself.
Speaker 2: So the Labor Party locally had been enormous help. The
Speaker 2: Union movement had.
Speaker 1: Been you know, things like helping you pay for funerals
Speaker 1: and stuff like that you'd never made. You'd never even
Speaker 1: thought about. People stepping in and helping getting legal advice,
Speaker 1: you know, all the stuff that I needed to do
Speaker 1: because of the situation that I was in, and so
Speaker 1: they had been amazing. And when I did start getting
Speaker 1: my got myself back together, I got back to work,
Speaker 1: I needed to repay a bit of that I felt.
Speaker 1: And that's what got me into politics.
Speaker 2: That's a long way of how I got it.
Speaker 1: Because then there was not enough women standing for election
Speaker 1: in Canberra at the time. So this is for the
Speaker 1: local assembly like this territory parliament, and a lot of
Speaker 1: women didn't want to put their hands up and we
Speaker 1: were trying to make sure we were getting women into politics,
Speaker 1: and I'd been part of that just as a member,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden everyone was looking at.
Speaker 2: Me, going, well, hang on a minute, what are you doing.
Speaker 2: Why can't you do it?
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I've got a lot on
Speaker 1: But I realized also that if we wanted more women elected,
Speaker 1: women had to put their hand up in the first place,
Speaker 1: otherwise it wasn't going to change.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't just me.
Speaker 1: There was a group about eight of us that stood
Speaker 1: as candidates in that election, and two of us got elected,
Speaker 1: and I was one of them. Wow, And I was
Speaker 1: told I wouldn't win, and I just needed to.
Speaker 2: Do it, go through the emotions, and you know, well,
Speaker 2: it is one of those things I think politics that
Speaker 2: often people will have a tilt at it, thinking well,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to win this time time anyway. But
Speaker 2: then at least I blooded myself and I know what
Speaker 2: comes yeah next. But you actually I won by like you.
Speaker 1: One, I don't know by some It's a it's a
Speaker 1: very complicated electoral system in the act called hair Clark
Speaker 1: with Robson rotation. It's the same electoral system as Tasmania.
Speaker 1: But this is like homo, Yeah, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: it's like a moro anyway, hard electoral system, hard to
Speaker 1: get elected. I was told it wouldn't happen, but like
Speaker 1: it was like seventy votes out of seventy thousand cars,
Speaker 1: you know, like it was.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 1: I basically scraped over the line and it was a
Speaker 1: surprise to everyone, including other people in the parliament, none
Speaker 1: of whom I knew.
Speaker 2: Like I was just like, oh, hi, Katie's I'm here.
Speaker 2: I don't know what this is about.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I would say the other great thing
Speaker 1: because it is about putting yourself out there and that
Speaker 1: that campaign was art for me. It was hard to
Speaker 1: stand on the corner of street store, so.
Speaker 2: You really were like door knocking it introducing yourself and
Speaker 2: that is hard. And so how did you sell yourself,
Speaker 2: by the way, what was it that you were offering?
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it was I kind of campaigned on
Speaker 1: the areas of strength that I felt I had. So
Speaker 1: I had a young child, so I did a lot
Speaker 1: of campaigning around childcare, you know, because it was sort
Speaker 1: of issues that people could connect with authenticity to me
Speaker 1: and the fact that we needed some women in the parliament.
Speaker 1: We had some very regressive abortion laws in the Act
Speaker 1: that had been bought in by some male members, and
Speaker 1: like too many women, they were pretty offensive in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, having to stare at pictures of fetuses and
Speaker 1: things like that before you were allowed to get medical assistance.
Speaker 1: And so that motivated me as well. And there was
Speaker 1: a big It had been a very male dominated parliament
Speaker 1: and that election in two thousand and one changed that.
Speaker 2: A lot of women were elected, so.
Speaker 1: There was a very strong vote of women wanting to
Speaker 1: see change happen in their parliament. And I think I
Speaker 1: just happened to be one of those people in the
Speaker 1: right place at the right time. And I was a
Speaker 1: local too, and I think that probably helped me with
Speaker 1: those seventy votes. Like you know, people go, oh, I
Speaker 1: went to school with her, or I knew Betsy. I
Speaker 1: bet Betsy was a bit of a vote puller. So
Speaker 1: there was a bit of that going on as well.
Speaker 2: And so then so you've got how old's abby at
Speaker 2: this point she was four. Then you embark on what's
Speaker 2: the start of your political career? I mean, everything seems,
Speaker 2: you know, self evident in retrospect, but at the time,
Speaker 2: what did you think you were going to be doing
Speaker 2: or how long did you think it was going to last.
Speaker 2: I had no idea. I really didn't. I didn't know.
Speaker 1: How to speak publicly. I didn't know how to give
Speaker 1: a speech.
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I was so unprepared for that job.
Speaker 2: But do you also think that that's kind of a strength. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think in hindsight, But at the time, you know,
Speaker 2: when we're all you just saw your shortcomings.
Speaker 1: And you know it's probably at my age. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, just thirty, and I was like, there was
Speaker 1: all these people more knowledgeable. So it's a bit of
Speaker 1: that imposter syndrome that we all get from time to time.
Speaker 2: So it was a but yeah.
Speaker 1: But as it turned out, the fact that I wasn't
Speaker 1: like that turned out to be a strength in terms
Speaker 1: of certainly the support I got while I was there,
Speaker 1: because I was there for about another four elections and ended.
Speaker 2: Up chief minister, which is a big job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a mayor and other things in Cambra.
Speaker 2: Like, it is a big job. I don't want to
Speaker 2: diminish it. It is a big job. It's a big job. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then what happened with you personally in that time?
Speaker 2: So I guess I've always thought of politics as being
Speaker 2: so consuming that there's not much opportunity for your personal
Speaker 2: expressional love or romance or whatever. But I'm wrong, aren't I? Yes,
Speaker 2: I've been very lucky.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, to have a you know,
Speaker 1: to experience love in a long lasting way, and to
Speaker 1: experience that twice in a life, you are pretty fortunate.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I met Dave through this will be funny,
Speaker 1: but he worked at the Assembly in the kind of
Speaker 1: public service side, not the political side, and that's how
Speaker 1: I met him. But also because he had a beagle
Speaker 1: and Abby and I had a beagle. Oh and so
Speaker 1: we had this beagle catch up and that was our
Speaker 1: first day, was to introduce the beagle.
Speaker 2: Hang on who suggested the beagle catch up? Because that
Speaker 2: is the that's a ruse. If ever, I've heard one
Speaker 2: for someone who liked someone. I know.
Speaker 1: It was pretty tragic, isn't it? When you think I
Speaker 1: can't remember? It was just like, oh, so you've got
Speaker 1: a bagel, I've got a beagle. Let's get the beagles together,
Speaker 1: which we did.
Speaker 2: Did the beagles get on? They did? Tommy and Bubba
Speaker 2: had great life together. Big sniffers beagles, and.
Speaker 1: David's bagel was very naughty and mine was very well behaved,
Speaker 1: so a metaphor.
Speaker 2: Perhaps.
Speaker 1: And the other thing was Dave was a you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't have children, so and I don't know that
Speaker 1: it ever really like he wasn't one of those people
Speaker 1: dying for children, and so that was that was an
Speaker 1: added element which I actually again turned out to be
Speaker 1: really wonderful because Abby has a very Abby is a
Speaker 1: raving extrovert and just loves everybody. That's her personality style,
Speaker 1: and so she just adored him. Made it easy, so easy,
Speaker 1: and I mean it was impossible not to love Abby
Speaker 1: and to get caught up in everything that she was
Speaker 1: up to. And so yeah, we yeah, it was. It's
Speaker 1: lovely finding David and he of course I haven't you know,
Speaker 1: I found him and I've.
Speaker 2: Kept but you haven't. You're not married, No, we're not married.
Speaker 2: It's very modern.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's sort of a I noticed a
Speaker 1: lot of my niece, my niece and her generation are
Speaker 1: all getting married again.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like come full. I feel like my.
Speaker 1: Generation it was part of our kind of feminism and
Speaker 1: not being owned and not having those traditional structures around
Speaker 1: our relationships or not feeling the need to. You know,
Speaker 1: I've never felt the need to be married, and so
Speaker 1: we just never have.
Speaker 2: We bought a house together. I thought that was more
Speaker 2: do you feel the need because no, I think men
Speaker 2: are often a little bit more traditional in that sense
Speaker 2: than this generation of women.
Speaker 1: Anyway, No, I think he was completely fine with that.
Speaker 1: And for he and I when we bought a house together,
Speaker 1: I really felt that was our married paper.
Speaker 2: That's the And then we've been very fortunate.
Speaker 1: I got two children, Charlie and Evie, right, who are
Speaker 1: eighteen and almost twenty, So there's ten years between top
Speaker 1: and bottom, which means I have been a parent for
Speaker 1: my feels like my entire life.
Speaker 2: But I'm almost through it now. How well you we
Speaker 2: think that, Well, I'm through that kind of real intense mothering. Yes, stage.
Speaker 2: How was it with Dave when you had Charlie, so
Speaker 2: first boy having had a daughter, and his first biological child,
Speaker 2: though he obviously had had Abby, had decided that that
Speaker 2: was her Abby Dave very early on. How was that?
Speaker 2: It was lovely?
Speaker 1: Charlie was so Dave's the eldest in his family. So
Speaker 1: Abby and Charlie were the first grandchildren in that in
Speaker 1: the line that came so yeah, people, I mean Charlie's
Speaker 1: he's just adorable. Was wonderful to have, you know, so again,
Speaker 1: just experience all that in a much happier way. Although
Speaker 1: my mother died when I was pregnant with Charlie, so
Speaker 1: I did have a kind of another traumatic episode when
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, but that was more like she'd been
Speaker 1: unwell with cancer for a long time, so that was
Speaker 1: more expected.
Speaker 2: But Charlie was.
Speaker 1: Another gift in that way to the family, another healing
Speaker 1: part of life and happy and healthy and easy. And
Speaker 1: Dave kind of rolled his sleeves up and had some
Speaker 1: parental leave.
Speaker 2: Because what was happening with your career at this point.
Speaker 1: Oh it was madness. So it was like it was around.
Speaker 1: So Charlie was born in two thousand and six. I
Speaker 1: was Deputy Chief Minister then and we had an election.
Speaker 1: Oh so he was born mid cycle. So that was
Speaker 1: kind of good timing, right, thank you, thank you. Very convenient.
Speaker 1: Eve came along. Not so convenient. She came along about
Speaker 1: eighteen months later. But yeah, it was busy, but it
Speaker 1: was containable in the sense that I don't unlike other jurisdictions.
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of travel in the eight Well.
Speaker 1: You travel from one end of the Act to another
Speaker 1: in half an hour.
Speaker 2: So we just managed it.
Speaker 1: We're a busy family juggling lots of different things, but
Speaker 1: we managed.
Speaker 2: And then when did the calling, like the federal ALP
Speaker 2: calling come.
Speaker 1: So that would have been in twenty fourteen, around twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: and it was really the retirement of Kate Lundy, who
Speaker 1: was the senator for the Act then, and a few
Speaker 1: people federally sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said,
Speaker 1: we'd like you to join our team.
Speaker 2: So and how is that? That was a discussion, Well,
Speaker 2: I was more.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd always said in the family, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: in the family, yeah, I mean, I think we'd all realize,
Speaker 1: like I'd been in Act politics for almost fourteen thirteen years.
Speaker 1: By then, I'd been chief Minister for nearly four years,
Speaker 1: and so I had felt I had already made up
Speaker 1: in my mind that I wouldn't contest another election. I
Speaker 1: felt like I'd done what I could and there's no
Speaker 1: end to these jobs. So there's a natural conclusion, and
Speaker 1: so you have to really make a decision, active decision
Speaker 1: to leave and I hadn't made the decision to leave,
Speaker 1: but I had made the decision not to go through
Speaker 1: another local election and to allow others to have a go,
Speaker 1: and so I sort of made peace with that. And
Speaker 1: then this opportunity again just comes really came out of
Speaker 1: left field because Kate had decided to retire, so there
Speaker 1: was a vacancy. You can be appointed to that vacancy,
Speaker 1: and in the Senate and federal Labor wanted me to
Speaker 1: consider that. So Anthony rang me, Bill Shorten rang me,
Speaker 1: Penny Wong rang me.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: And when you get those people ringing you saying, please
Speaker 1: consider coming up here, we want you to join our team,
Speaker 1: you think about it.
Speaker 2: At that point, what did you want to be your
Speaker 2: contribution to public life.
Speaker 1: So it was at the time also where there had
Speaker 1: been a change of government. The Labor Party was in
Speaker 1: all sorts of bother post the Gillard.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the tap dance, the musical chairs, and.
Speaker 1: So there'd been sort of there was, you know, it
Speaker 1: was a very hurt and fractured party that Bill was
Speaker 1: trying to rebuild. So there was that sense that you
Speaker 1: could be part of something that was really about rebuilding
Speaker 1: the Labor Party federally. There was also because I had
Speaker 1: been a state leader. Tony Abbott had come in and
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying not to be partisan, but he
Speaker 1: was wanting to make cuts to health and education and
Speaker 1: things like that, which I felt as a former leader
Speaker 1: of a jurisdiction, I knew what that meant to schools
Speaker 1: and hospitals, and so it gave me the opportunity to
Speaker 1: bring that into the federal arena and argue against it,
Speaker 1: which is what politics is all about, you know. It's
Speaker 1: about arguing your position and trying to get enough support
Speaker 1: to win the argument.
Speaker 2: And that was important to me as well, but also
Speaker 2: interesting because obviously in politics you have your main political rival,
Speaker 2: but also within the Labor Party, as you alluded to before,
Speaker 2: it was so fractious and so such a house divided,
Speaker 2: you must be very good at navigating a lot of
Speaker 2: shifting tectonic plates.
Speaker 1: Well, I learned a lot joining the federal team in
Speaker 1: that I feel like I'd been in this love. You
Speaker 1: know that Act Labor, which was a very small party
Speaker 1: in a small jurisdiction, operated very differently from Federal Labor,
Speaker 1: which was a much bigger machine. Across the country. The
Speaker 1: factions were very involved in decisions which hadn't been my
Speaker 1: experience locally. So I had a lot to learn, and
Speaker 1: I found that interesting as well, like you sort of
Speaker 1: did need a guide to help you navigate with some
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 2: Even I imagine that if you're talking to the wrong
Speaker 2: person at the wrong time, and I mean, it's.
Speaker 1: So or if you don't understand long histories of yeas
Speaker 1: and do you understand those or did you understand those?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: I didn't at the time. I understand a lot more
Speaker 1: about it now, And I think when I joined there'd
Speaker 1: been the reckoning had happened, and it was about how
Speaker 1: to rebuild host the Gillard Rudd years. When Bill came
Speaker 1: in and went to the twenty sixteen and the twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen election, A lot of rebuilding happened during that time,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people who were around during the
Speaker 1: difficult years learned the hard way about what happens when
Speaker 1: political parties implode like that.
Speaker 2: And also the people don't want it because the people
Speaker 2: believe and looked to Bill Shorten and went no if
Speaker 2: she maybe possibly just because he'd survived so many, so
Speaker 2: many nights of the long knives.
Speaker 1: Well, I think there was a lot of things that
Speaker 1: make people's minds up at an election. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I think with Bill a lot of credit should be
Speaker 1: given to the sort of structural stability he provided, because
Speaker 1: post Tony Abbott coming into being PM in that election
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen election, it could have got a lot worse,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think Bill managed and that's part
Speaker 1: of his Union background of being people together and all
Speaker 1: of that. Bill managed to kind of write the ship.
Speaker 1: And then it wasn't his time in those two elections,
Speaker 1: and there were policy things that people didn't like, but
Speaker 1: he kind of built the foundation that Anthony was able
Speaker 1: to continue to develop. And so, yeah, I learned a
Speaker 1: lot during that time, and I learned politics at the
Speaker 1: federal level is a lot faster and meaner and more brutal,
Speaker 1: and the press gallery is scare the Jesus out of
Speaker 1: you and all that. That was very different to you know,
Speaker 1: Katie Chief Minister puddling around the act.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I'm curious about is
Speaker 2: when you're part of a machine, by necessity a machine,
Speaker 2: but you also have your personal integrity and your personal
Speaker 2: beliefs when they're at odds with the party or with
Speaker 2: the government, that you're a part of. How do you
Speaker 2: reconcile that and how do you keep your sense of
Speaker 2: integrity and navigate your way through that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a great It is a great question,
Speaker 1: and it's one that a lot of us in politics
Speaker 1: think about a lot deeply about because for the most part,
Speaker 1: it's not a problem for you know, in your day
Speaker 1: to day kind of operation. You know, it's like any
Speaker 1: other workplace. But sometimes there are big things that are
Speaker 1: going on where you know you would have liked a
Speaker 1: bit more action, a bit sooner, or things to be
Speaker 1: done a bit differently.
Speaker 2: And I take the view, and I have had.
Speaker 1: This discussion with a lot of people who criticize the
Speaker 1: Labor Party on different positions. I've taken the view that I,
Speaker 1: for me, it's better to be inside an organization, changing
Speaker 1: it from within and arguing for change than it is
Speaker 1: to be outside throwing stones at it where you have
Speaker 1: no voice to actually influence the decisions the party takes.
Speaker 1: And so there are times when you know you might
Speaker 1: disagree around the table, but part of being part of
Speaker 1: a collective movement is that once consensus has been reached,
Speaker 1: or on the majority has been reached, you lock in
Speaker 1: behind that and sometimes that means you didn't get exactly
Speaker 1: what you want, but that doesn't mean you stop fighting
Speaker 1: for it or arguing for it. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think I can think of plenty things like marriage equality.
Speaker 2: You know, in the Act.
Speaker 1: We passed laws which got overturned unfortunately by the High Court,
Speaker 1: but we led on that. I went to in the
Speaker 1: Federal Parliament, in the Federal Labor Team. It took a
Speaker 1: lot longer to get Federal Labor to a position that
Speaker 1: I believed in, but I was part of working to
Speaker 1: affect that change, just like Penny Wong was who for
Speaker 1: years had stuck with the position even though she disagreed
Speaker 1: with it while she worked for change and good change happens.
Speaker 1: So that's part of being a member of a collective
Speaker 1: movement that has discipline around it, because if you don't
Speaker 1: have that discipline, we'd all just be out every day
Speaker 1: saying whatever we wanted and not being able to land anything.
Speaker 2: Well. I think during the last election it became really
Speaker 2: apparent that there was discipline in the ALP. I think
Speaker 2: more than a lot of the population we're expecting to see.
Speaker 2: Actually it yields results.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a mix of remembering what happened in
Speaker 1: the last time we were in government and the you know,
Speaker 1: all of the division and where that where that landed us.
Speaker 1: But also I think Anthony's got a lot to take
Speaker 1: credit for there because of his style of leadership. Where
Speaker 1: again he's someone that likes, I think, governing with consensus.
Speaker 1: He doesn't like pitting people against each other. He wants
Speaker 1: to deliver change from the center, and certainly our cabinet,
Speaker 1: our caucus, even all the new members. Everybody understands that
Speaker 1: and it's not a hardship. People realize that when you
Speaker 1: work like this, you can be a part of some
Speaker 1: amazing things. After this shortbreak, Katie and I turned the
Speaker 1: pressing issues facing women in Australia and the actctions that
Speaker 1: cannot wait.
Speaker 2: Well as Minister for Women. Now, when you get a
Speaker 2: portfolio like that, is that a good portfolio to get
Speaker 2: and is that a portfolio that you'd want? I loved it.
Speaker 2: I loved getting it because I know there is some
Speaker 2: that are a bit of a shit sand with people
Speaker 2: like I'm very honored to take the portfolio, but I'd
Speaker 2: rather not.
Speaker 1: How great to be Minister for women though in it,
Speaker 1: like for the whole country it traditionally has been a
Speaker 1: job that's maybe been tacked on or a junior port
Speaker 1: or done by men. They were those heady days, yes,
Speaker 1: So the great thing about it was the combination of
Speaker 1: portfolios of finance and women together. So what Anthony the
Speaker 1: Prime Minister did with that appointment was he lifted women
Speaker 1: into the center of government decision making. So nothing gets
Speaker 1: past the Minister for Finance, like it's you know, every
Speaker 1: decision really through government comes through finance someway or another,
Speaker 1: because it's you know, might cost money, might impact the budget,
Speaker 1: might you know, there's pretty much nothing that happens without
Speaker 1: coming through that center department, which I'm responsible for. And
Speaker 1: it lifted women into that space and it put an
Speaker 1: economic focus on gender equality for the first time. So
Speaker 1: with the Treasurer, who he's amazing on all stuff relating
Speaker 1: to gender equality, and myself as the economic team, like
Speaker 1: women and driving gender equality became an economic focus. It
Speaker 1: wasn't a social focus. It wasn't about giving us, you know,
Speaker 1: extra support. It was about, right, how do we drive
Speaker 1: equality through work, through childcare, through health, through.
Speaker 2: Paid parentals exactly, through all of that. So and there
Speaker 2: have been profound changes for women under your watch, and
Speaker 2: as you said before, things that they take a long
Speaker 2: time sometimes to get the wheel moving. But the biggest
Speaker 2: I think issue for a lot of women in Australia
Speaker 2: that's not directly necessarily pertaining to them, but one that
Speaker 2: consumes us is domestic violence. Totally yeah, I agree. And
Speaker 2: the rates of the murders of women by intimate partners,
Speaker 2: it is terrible, It is terrible, terrific.
Speaker 1: Yeah, on any level when you look at the individual
Speaker 1: cases and you get to, you know, see what happens
Speaker 1: to women and children affected by violence. But when you
Speaker 1: look at the numbers, the statistics, even if you have
Speaker 1: a sort of de identified look.
Speaker 2: At it and the thing. So I totally agree.
Speaker 1: And I'm always asked if there's one thing you could
Speaker 1: change for women, what is it? And that is always
Speaker 1: I said, if there, if I had a magic one
Speaker 1: and I could remove violence from women's lives, women and
Speaker 1: children's lives, that is.
Speaker 2: What I would do.
Speaker 1: That would because I think that single thing would then
Speaker 1: have benefits across the board education, skills, jobs, health, you know, savings, assets,
Speaker 1: everything you look at that affects women negatively from violence
Speaker 1: is right across the economy and every aspect of social life,
Speaker 1: and of course permeates into the next generation with the
Speaker 1: children who are affected and witnesses to that.
Speaker 2: Yes, and safety for women is the shadow that always
Speaker 2: is around us anywactly. And if you are fortunate enough
Speaker 2: to be in a home situation where you feel safe,
Speaker 2: your outcomes in life at every level are very different
Speaker 2: than if you aren't afforded that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again you look at it, you look at
Speaker 1: you know when people talk about the fastest growing group
Speaker 1: in homelessness older women, And why is that so when
Speaker 1: you look down, Well, it's because usually if it hasn't
Speaker 1: been a violent you know, violence ending the relationship, it
Speaker 1: might be divorce. And it's the fact that women don't
Speaker 1: have super they get done over on the assets they
Speaker 1: have saving to children, they haven't earned as much exactly,
Speaker 1: they don't have as much savings.
Speaker 2: And so all of I mean, part of what we're
Speaker 2: trying to do.
Speaker 1: We've got obviously a specific focus on ending violence against
Speaker 1: women and children in a generation, and we've put.
Speaker 2: Four billion dollars into that.
Speaker 1: We four billion dollars into legal services so that they
Speaker 1: can provide support through community legal services, a packageing health.
Speaker 1: Driving the gender pay gap down like everywhere, making childcare
Speaker 1: work better, for women, paying super on parental leave. All
Speaker 1: of these are really about making sure that we are
Speaker 1: giving you know, women are earning more and they're having
Speaker 1: the opportunity to have more savings in the bank, that
Speaker 1: they're not penalized for being a mother, Trying to drive
Speaker 1: more men to take the load of children when they're
Speaker 1: young through shared arrangements for care. All of that is
Speaker 1: about trying ultimately to get women in a better position
Speaker 1: so that violence for those that are affected by violence
Speaker 1: might have a bit more of a lect to stand on,
Speaker 1: you know, for themselves as they're going through that, because
Speaker 1: violence affects everything, of course, but everything is interrelated, yes
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: And in some I heard you say in an interview
Speaker 2: it's not just up to the government, which I agree
Speaker 2: is the case. It's a societal problem. But you're the
Speaker 2: Minister for Women and you're operating under this promise that
Speaker 2: was publicly made that we will end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's end violence against women and children in a generation,
Speaker 1: and it was agreement by stakeholders, so the women's sector
Speaker 1: and governments and state and territory governments have all signed
Speaker 1: up to that, and that's it's hard to explain, but
Speaker 1: that was the agreed terms because we couldn't agree on
Speaker 1: a time. But you can't say I want it to
Speaker 1: end in five years knowing that that's unlikely.
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think is that though you
Speaker 2: are the Minister for Women, that women cannot achieve what
Speaker 2: we need to achieve in the freedom that we should
Speaker 2: have here in Australia without men and without without encouraging
Speaker 2: our men to be and a young men to become
Speaker 2: the sort of older mean that we need them to be. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then I think there's pornography and which plays soch
Speaker 2: a massive part. I know, where do we.
Speaker 3: Begin, Katie Galla, I'm just I'm just telling you stuff. No,
Speaker 3: and it's all It's all things I think about and
Speaker 3: my colleagues think about as well. And because you know,
Speaker 3: and it is I know about kind of using government
Speaker 3: language and what appropriate terms and things like that, it
Speaker 3: sometimes does make it hard. But when you do talk
Speaker 3: about gender equality, that is about not cutting men out
Speaker 3: of the picture, not demonizing men, not talking to men
Speaker 3: in a way that enrages them. And I have this
Speaker 3: conversation with my partner Dave all the time because he
Speaker 3: it insenses him when he feels like he's been you know,
Speaker 3: all all men are violent or all men are aggressive,
Speaker 3: and it gets him going to And so I've been
Speaker 3: And I've got a son too that I like to
Speaker 3: kind of test things on and and talk to about
Speaker 3: what makes sense to him. And increasingly how I think
Speaker 3: there is an understanding that in order to deal with
Speaker 3: that kind of attitudinal stuff that exists across governments aren't
Speaker 3: very good at dealing with that is we need men
Speaker 3: at the table, you know, to lean in on it,
Speaker 3: but also to provide to be the leaders of the
Speaker 3: men that we want.
Speaker 2: And there are so many, so many good men.
Speaker 1: I just don't know that we've always been thoughtful about
Speaker 1: how to involve them.
Speaker 2: And I don't necessarily see like I know obviously here
Speaker 2: at Mamma Mia and the mission here at Mauma Mia
Speaker 2: is to make the world a better place for women
Speaker 2: and girls. I believe that's also your mission. But there
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be the same momentum from men. There
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be the same I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's because they feel helpless, or maybe it's because of feminism,
Speaker 2: or I don't know what it is, but there seems
Speaker 2: to be a silence that's not helpful. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there is something in that.
Speaker 1: And so how we involve men in discussions about you know,
Speaker 1: building the world that we want and building the society
Speaker 1: we want, and you know, even in terms of probably
Speaker 1: gender equality, because that actually means that men and women
Speaker 1: are treated equally, girls and boys are treated equally. It's
Speaker 1: not about women getting something better, not the same, but
Speaker 1: equally equally and have equal opportunities, so that a girl
Speaker 1: leaving primary school tomorrow thinks all those jobs are available
Speaker 1: to her, not just some of the jobs, and the
Speaker 1: same for the for the young boy or the young man.
Speaker 1: And we have to make sure that we are bringing
Speaker 1: that thinking along with us as we you know, we
Speaker 1: have a minis for women. We're driving a lot of
Speaker 1: improvements for women that we are at the same time
Speaker 1: conscious that this isn't about being better or getting more
Speaker 1: for women. It's about trying to make sure the balance
Speaker 1: is right. And like my colleague Dan Rapercoli, who he's
Speaker 1: the Special Envoy for Men's Health, so he's been given
Speaker 1: that job by the PM to sort of start moving
Speaker 1: into I think some of that silence, like men's health
Speaker 1: is an obvious area.
Speaker 3: Women.
Speaker 1: We're very good at talking about our health. The health
Speaker 1: system needs to We're very good at talking. We are
Speaker 1: good at We're great at talking. And so I think
Speaker 1: more and more you'll see, Yeah, you'll see changes like
Speaker 1: that which try to bring men to the table in
Speaker 1: a lot more of these discussions, because you're right, we
Speaker 1: can't do it on our own. We shouldn't do it
Speaker 1: on our own. That's not the world we want to create.
Speaker 2: You know that in the context of bringing men into
Speaker 2: our world, there does seem to be kind of a
Speaker 2: divide between stuff that's labeled as women's business by men.
Speaker 2: No more clearly, I think, is there an example of
Speaker 2: that than on, for instance, International Women's Day, when there
Speaker 2: are breakfasts and functions and there amazing and they're uplifting,
Speaker 2: but they're all tables of teen of women and the
Speaker 2: men are absent from those, Or literature that's seemed to
Speaker 2: be women's literature, or TV shows or you know, how
Speaker 2: do we bring men in to our world?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I have the perfect answer for that,
Speaker 1: or a good answer. I think this is an area
Speaker 1: where there's more work to do, you know, and I
Speaker 1: am a big believer in not making the equality discussion
Speaker 1: a woman's issue or a women's issue that women have
Speaker 1: to solve.
Speaker 2: Not only are we.
Speaker 1: Often the victims of the or not victims, or that
Speaker 1: we suffer from the inequality, or we experience the inequality.
Speaker 1: It's then up to us to work out how to
Speaker 1: solve it.
Speaker 2: And even this conversation will enrage some women because I
Speaker 2: know they're like, but we shouldn't have to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but at some point, you either want what you want
Speaker 2: or you want to be right. I think so. I
Speaker 2: think so. But with men, I think we have to work.
Speaker 1: Out a better way of involving them in all of
Speaker 1: the discussions about the world that we want to build,
Speaker 1: not not on a women versus men spectrum. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be women gain at the expense of men.
Speaker 1: This is all about getting a fair treatment for everybody
Speaker 1: and creating a community in a society where that is
Speaker 1: a realistic possibility. And at the moment, on any of
Speaker 1: those measures we've talked about, that's not the case. And
Speaker 1: I think part of our job, maybe it's not the
Speaker 1: women's job, but we have to work out ways that
Speaker 1: men don't feel threatened to be a part of that discussion, and.
Speaker 2: I think at the moment we haven't quite got that
Speaker 2: now to be And as we know, men are great
Speaker 2: at solutions.
Speaker 1: So maybe it's up to us to work out how
Speaker 1: to get them involved.
Speaker 2: Maybe we need a Minister for men.
Speaker 1: Well, like I said, where the Minister for Men or
Speaker 1: the Special Envoy for Men's Health is the first kind
Speaker 1: of foray into that and structurally.
Speaker 2: You guys get it together in a in a policy. Yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: Well and again you know, if if Dan can deal
Speaker 1: with some of the issues about around men's health, that
Speaker 1: that would make a big improvement in men's lives. Also
Speaker 1: would have flow on effects for women who are you know,
Speaker 1: their wives and their mums and they're all the rest
Speaker 1: of it. I mean, it's it's it's important that we
Speaker 1: have a whole of community focus on equality and that
Speaker 1: involves men being part of that discussion.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. What do you want to have happened at the
Speaker 2: end of this political term?
Speaker 1: God, so many things, so many in the women's portfolio.
Speaker 2: Do you think for you? Well, like, what's a what's
Speaker 2: a measure success for you? Yes? What is yours? I
Speaker 2: think it would happen in mind? This will haunt you? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know it will. I can see your cogs.
Speaker 1: I'm trying well because I think about this a lot,
Speaker 1: and partly it's hard to measure, like I would like
Speaker 1: to see a big change in domestic and family violence,
Speaker 1: like a reduction in it, because I think that would
Speaker 1: make all these other areas where women are behind a
Speaker 1: lot easier to solve if we didn't, if we weren't
Speaker 1: constantly pouring money an effort into trying to deal with
Speaker 1: the crisis and of domestic and family.
Speaker 2: To rebuild, and it's been shattered.
Speaker 1: And through the hospitals, through the courts, through the schools,
Speaker 1: through counseling, through services, through everything where so much money
Speaker 1: is poured into dealing with the crisis of this. But
Speaker 1: having said that, saying I'd like to see a reduction,
Speaker 1: I know that part of what we're going through at
Speaker 1: the moment is that we're seeing those numbers look worse
Speaker 1: or in some indicators, materially worse. And part of that
Speaker 1: is people reporting more and pursuing more through the courts,
Speaker 1: and that that is good. So it's not what I'm
Speaker 1: saying to is I'd like to see that change. But
Speaker 1: I'm also been around long enough to know that in
Speaker 1: the short term, affecting that change means some of those
Speaker 1: numbers might look worse.
Speaker 2: Your daughter EV is neurodivergent. She certainly in a number
Speaker 2: of diagnoses.
Speaker 1: Yes, she's a lot. EV love, I love that kid,
Speaker 1: But she's a lot.
Speaker 2: How do you have a kid who's a lot when
Speaker 2: you have a lot on your plate?
Speaker 3: Ah?
Speaker 1: Well, I imagine you've got When you said you have
Speaker 1: four children, I kind of took a sharp intake of
Speaker 1: breath because I said, oh my god, how could I like,
Speaker 1: I've got three? Four sounds terrifying. You Just deal with it,
Speaker 1: you know, it is she's I mean, labels help explain EV.
Speaker 2: But EV is just my daughter.
Speaker 1: And so the family absorbs and you know, copes with
Speaker 1: all the different personalities in it. EV's required a bit
Speaker 1: more hands on and kind of contact than the other two.
Speaker 1: But she's been a wonderful you know, her autism, her ADHD, dyslexia,
Speaker 1: all the other things that are going on have also
Speaker 1: enriched our family a lot. And you know, I feel
Speaker 1: very fortunate for having a kid like EV who's exposed
Speaker 1: me to that and made me parent different and think
Speaker 1: differently and be at times more accommodating she's driven me mad.
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh yeah, pull my hair out, all that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, but just hugely again, just taught me
Speaker 1: to be a lot more empathetic and understanding and about people.
Speaker 1: You learn a lot about people in my job, and
Speaker 1: Evi's taught me a lot about autism and how brains
Speaker 1: work differently.
Speaker 2: What do you love about Australia?
Speaker 1: I love I was thinking about this the other day
Speaker 1: because I was cleaning the tomb of the Unnamed Soldier
Speaker 1: in the War Memorial and before it opens, MPs and
Speaker 1: senators can go and clean it and just spend some time.
Speaker 1: And I was thinking things like a ceremonial, no, just
Speaker 1: on your own, you're just in the oh yeah, in
Speaker 1: that part of the War Memorial. And do you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking, in any other country, you'd probably have
Speaker 1: some pomp and ceremony about around this, like there'd be
Speaker 1: you know, military standing.
Speaker 2: On guard and bugles and things.
Speaker 1: I love the fact that we're all we come from
Speaker 1: a very egalitarian you know, no fast, no friels, kind
Speaker 1: of care for each other, look after each other. And
Speaker 1: I think we saw that a bit in the election campaign,
Speaker 1: which really validated I know, the Australian spirit to me,
Speaker 1: which was, we don't really want to be divided and angry.
Speaker 1: We wanted we want to work on a society that's
Speaker 1: about bringing people together and being optimistic. Which is why
Speaker 1: I think I'm such a you know, Oh, I think
Speaker 1: civics and citizenship and understanding politics and democracy is so
Speaker 1: important because we are very lucky here. We have peaceful
Speaker 1: transfer or power. We have peaceful elections. You can't imagine
Speaker 1: a world where you have to walk past guns to
Speaker 1: go and and you know, have a vote, or that
Speaker 1: you're killed.
Speaker 2: And are you coming in today?
Speaker 1: Yeah, just being able to come in exactly. We've got
Speaker 1: such freedom around it. But it's not something we should
Speaker 1: take for granted because it can be taken away, and
Speaker 1: it can be taken it's fragile. Democracy is fragile, and
Speaker 1: you know, so we should be protective of it because
Speaker 1: ultimately the best thing about democracy is that people make
Speaker 1: the rules and make the decisions for the people. And
Speaker 1: if the people don't like you, they beat you out
Speaker 1: and they bring in someone they do like, and again
Speaker 1: people might get annoyed. I've got to go down and vote.
Speaker 1: I do my fair share of handing out on the
Speaker 1: polling stations and everyone's like, oh god, I had to
Speaker 1: come down and vote today. But honestly, I think it's
Speaker 1: a very it's a system we should protect and invest in.
Speaker 2: Your I guess groundedness or your every womanness resonates with people.
Speaker 2: But some people also say I mean, I think we
Speaker 2: always want people to be better than us and more
Speaker 2: elusive if we want to put them on a Peter stall.
Speaker 2: Do you think that politics might work better for people
Speaker 2: like yourself who were not led to it because of
Speaker 2: a desire for power or some kind of you know,
Speaker 2: modern I don't, literally.
Speaker 1: I think politics needs a lot of different things, Like
Speaker 1: you need a lot of different people in politics to
Speaker 1: make it work. And some of it is some of
Speaker 1: that is my style of politics, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I hope to be like very accessible, very
Speaker 1: down to earth, you know, you see, what you see
Speaker 1: is what you get. I'll be pretty direct with people.
Speaker 1: But I also am pretty connected. I've got a background
Speaker 1: in community work, so I think I think there's definitely
Speaker 1: a role for me that type of person.
Speaker 2: I would say that.
Speaker 1: Because I'm in there better, But I do think there's
Speaker 1: definitely a role. But I think politics works best where
Speaker 1: there's a whole melting pot in a sense of different
Speaker 1: personality types and different backgrounds and different cultural backgrounds, different
Speaker 1: geographic backgrounds, all of that. When you get that right,
Speaker 1: then you truly represent Australia. And I think at the
Speaker 1: heart of political system, that's what it's about. So it's
Speaker 1: not about what it used to be, which was older
Speaker 1: men at the towards the end of their careers. You
Speaker 1: look at the Parliament now, it's very different to that.
Speaker 1: It's gender balanced for the first time and a lot
Speaker 1: of different cultural people with different cultural backgrounds are represented.
Speaker 2: How do you handle it because a lot of it
Speaker 2: is it is a power play, and politics itself is
Speaker 2: about who's in power and who isn't. When you're challenged
Speaker 2: on something, at what point do you go, this is
Speaker 2: my ego reacting rather than this is actually what maybe
Speaker 2: I need to hear.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I think that's a great question which I've
Speaker 1: kind of been thinking. I have been thinking about because
Speaker 1: someone asked me about it. How do you wield influence
Speaker 1: and how do you wield power?
Speaker 2: And is that important in politics?
Speaker 1: And I think where I've got to is in the
Speaker 1: position that I'm in, it is important to have a
Speaker 1: number of things. One is to wield influence is important.
Speaker 1: To have respect of your colleagues is important, and to
Speaker 1: use the power you have carefully and wisely, knowing that
Speaker 1: you know, like you say, to sort of take a
Speaker 1: step back, not let your ego run things like there
Speaker 1: are times any in any workplace when you kind of
Speaker 1: I think you have to stop and check and think
Speaker 1: about things the way I yeah, I'm an I'm I
Speaker 1: will be confrontational if I need to be, but I
Speaker 1: prefer not to be. I prefer to think about how
Speaker 1: I land decisions or get what I want in a
Speaker 1: careful way and similar smart way.
Speaker 2: If you're engaging with colleagues or political opponents that are
Speaker 2: very combative, how do you respond to that pretty calmly?
Speaker 1: I think it takes a lot to get me to
Speaker 1: elevate my heart rate to you know, and I think
Speaker 1: maybe I've lent that over time, and it's a bit
Speaker 1: symbolic more characteristic of who I am, I think, which
Speaker 1: is when things get difficult and hard, I do go
Speaker 1: into myself and it's like a coping mechanism, I think.
Speaker 1: So it takes a lot to get me to lose
Speaker 1: it or respond in a similar way. And in a
Speaker 1: sense it's pretty effective because if someone's having a crack
Speaker 1: at you and you're remaining calm, that often infuriates them.
Speaker 2: I think that's called passive aggressive. Well, Katie Gallaher, thank you,
Speaker 2: thank you for your service. Oh, thank you, thanks for
Speaker 2: having me on. So normally I'd rather be shot out
Speaker 2: of a cannon than talk to a politician, but Kati
Speaker 2: Galaher is slightly unusual. She's the woman who's not only
Speaker 2: front and center in some of the toughest jobs in government,
Speaker 2: but also a woman who's lived a life full of challenge, loss,
Speaker 2: and resilience. It's very rare that politicians allow you to
Speaker 2: glimpse the person behind the office, the human being who's
Speaker 2: navigating grief, parenthood, and leadership all at once. Katie reminds
Speaker 2: us that there's always more to a person than the headlines,
Speaker 2: and that strength often comes quietly from choices made in
Speaker 2: everyday moments. Thank you so much for joining us on
Speaker 2: No Filter. If you love this conversation, make sure to
Speaker 2: subscribe so you don't miss the next one. The executive
Speaker 2: producer of No Filter is Naima Brown. The senior producer
Speaker 2: is bre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown, video
Speaker 2: editing is by Josh Green And I'm your host, Kate
Speaker 2: lane Brook. Thank you for listening.