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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: It was a doctor just saying to me, you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to snap out of it in like in

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Speaker 1: two months, you're going to have a baby and you

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Speaker 1: have to look after this baby, and you're in you

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Speaker 1: can't look after yourself, Like what are you thinking? And

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Speaker 1: it was that doctor speaking very bluntly to me that

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Speaker 1: made me kind of go, I have to get my

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Speaker 1: shit together.

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Speaker 2: Katie Gallaher's life has been shaped by heartbreak and resilience.

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Speaker 2: She lost her first partner while she was pregnant, and

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Speaker 2: those early experiences of grief and raising a child taught

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Speaker 2: her about empathy, determination, and the kind of groundedness that

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Speaker 2: comes from living through real struggle. Politics wasn't something she

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Speaker 2: set out to do. Instead, it found her, but she

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Speaker 2: brought her whole self to it, shaped by life not ambition.

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Speaker 2: Through that journey, she's risen to hold some of the

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Speaker 2: most significant roles in the Albanese government Minister for Finance,

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Speaker 2: Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service, Vice President

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Speaker 2: of the Executive Council and since twenty twenty five Minister

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Speaker 2: for Government Services. In this episode of No Filter, we

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Speaker 2: really get to know the woman behind the politician. Katie

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Speaker 2: shares the lessons she's learned, how her personal story informs

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Speaker 2: her approach to public service, and what it means to

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Speaker 2: undertake life with honesty, heart and a genuine desire to

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Speaker 2: make a difference. While I welcome you, Katie, thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: I am Katie, but I am not honorable, and you

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Speaker 2: are the honorable. You are the honorable Katie Gallaher. You

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Speaker 2: are the Minister for Finance, you are the Minister for Women,

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Speaker 2: Minister for the Public Service. Okay, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: any of that means, but I do know that you're

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Speaker 2: very busy and we're very lucky to have you.

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Speaker 1: Well, just there's loads of busy women right around the country.

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Speaker 2: But it's lovely to be here. Really. What does your

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Speaker 2: day look like? What have you done today?

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Speaker 1: So today has been a pretty normal day. So lot

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Speaker 1: on I did. Started with a radio interview, jumped on

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Speaker 1: a plane to Sydney, done some meetings at different ends

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Speaker 1: of Sydney. So I've been marching around with a giant umbrella,

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Speaker 1: knocking in puddles and stuff and then I've come here.

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Speaker 1: So it's been a full day and lots of different

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Speaker 1: you know, lots of different subjects, different meetings. I did

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Speaker 1: an ABC News interview at one of my meetings, squash

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Speaker 1: that in. It's a very varied you know, there isn't

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Speaker 1: like a normal day, I think, but.

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Speaker 2: The days are start at what time, oh, pretty early.

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Speaker 1: If I'm not doing an early radio interview or TV interview,

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Speaker 1: I'd be talking with GYM or the PM or.

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Speaker 2: Some colleagues pretty early.

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Speaker 1: So I'm usually I get up and I'm just there's

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Speaker 1: no kind of lounging and having a you know, having

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Speaker 1: a sip of coffee or slowly waking up eyes open.

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Speaker 1: I'm not the option to snooze, not really. Occasionally, when

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Speaker 1: you do have a day where you can do that,

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Speaker 1: it is super nice luxury, it is, and you really

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Speaker 1: appreciate when you talk.

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Speaker 2: About where you're traveling from, is that Canbra.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm really fortunate in that regard. So when

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Speaker 1: Parliament's sitting, I'm Canberra based.

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Speaker 2: And also born and raised in Canberra, which made me

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Speaker 2: think you really had no choice but to end up

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Speaker 2: in politics. Did you grow up immersed in that world.

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Speaker 1: A little bit like my parents, but more from my

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Speaker 1: parents and their influence. Like my parents were both interested

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Speaker 1: in politics. My dad was a public servant, but my

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Speaker 1: mum was a community worker.

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Speaker 2: That's Betsy, Yeah. And your dad Charles Charles. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And they had moved from the UK. They moved to

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Speaker 1: Canberra in the late sixties.

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Speaker 2: And why did they choose Canberra.

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Speaker 1: Well, as parently to do with my dad's asthma, so

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Speaker 1: that from the UK. I don't know why then Canberra

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Speaker 1: because it is freezing for dry, Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 2: Dry, but very dry. In fact, it's so dry.

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Speaker 1: The rain today in Sydney has been so nice. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: So they had moved. I think Australia was a place

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Speaker 1: of opportunity, away from far, away from their previous life.

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Speaker 1: And they just started together vine New Zealand. They actually

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Speaker 1: met on a boat going to New Zealand. Oh I

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Speaker 1: loved you ten pound poems. Was that that or after that?

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Speaker 1: It was? It was after that And they were just

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Speaker 1: separately going to New Zealand and met on the boat,

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Speaker 1: fell in love, lived for a while in New Zealand

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Speaker 1: and then.

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Speaker 2: Moved to Canberra.

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Speaker 1: And then you came along my sister in New Zealand

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Speaker 1: and then I came along shortly after that, so I

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Speaker 1: was born in nineteen seventy so yeah, they'd been in

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Speaker 1: Canberra about a year and my dad had a job

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Speaker 1: in the Parliamentary Library, so he was around politics. But

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Speaker 1: I never, I don't know, I never thought I would

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Speaker 1: be a politician.

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Speaker 2: What did you think you would do? So you were

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Speaker 2: quite musical growing up? Yeah, I did. I did play

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Speaker 2: the cello.

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Speaker 1: My mum wanted I think she really wanted us as

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Speaker 1: children to learn the piano and the cello or anything

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Speaker 1: any music. And I was I was kind of I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I wasn't a rebellious child. So you know,

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Speaker 1: your mum goes, Katie, Yeah, learning the cello, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh okay, well okay, I'd go lugging this giant instrument around,

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Speaker 1: bigger than you.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I wish for a violin. Yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 2: played the violin horrendously. Well, I just.

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Speaker 1: Loved the look of everyone walking around with their little

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Speaker 1: violin bags.

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Speaker 2: Then that would be me and this thing. So at

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Speaker 2: what point did you so your mum, Betsy was I

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Speaker 2: think renowned for having a very active social conscience. Is

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Speaker 2: that right to and what how did that manifest in

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, Mum was a big yeah, just involve. I

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Speaker 1: think she got to Canberra and she ended up having

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Speaker 1: four children under five. My two brothers came after Claire

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Speaker 1: and I and they were the first house in the street.

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Speaker 1: There was no services, no supports. She was from the UK.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine how isolating that would be like to

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Speaker 1: get my head around that, so far from everything you

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Speaker 1: knew for young children, a husband that worked all the time,

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Speaker 1: in a street without any you know, she told me

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Speaker 1: you'd have to walk quite a long way to get

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Speaker 1: to the phone box and anyway.

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Speaker 2: Sounded horrendous.

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Speaker 1: But so she went about sort of building services and supports,

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Speaker 1: like getting women together, getting children together, and from that,

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Speaker 1: you know, she just became this kind of community dynamo

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Speaker 1: that if there wasn't something there, she would build it

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Speaker 1: or get other people to kind of create the social

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Speaker 1: infrastructure that helped people.

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Speaker 2: And so I think for her, even.

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Speaker 1: As we got older, she was always rescuing things, whether

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Speaker 1: it be animals or children, And so we grew up

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Speaker 1: with a lot of different animals and a lot of

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Speaker 1: different children in our house who she usually was trying

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Speaker 1: to give the mum a break to make that relationship work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're never too sure what you were going to come

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Speaker 1: home to or who you were going to come home to.

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Speaker 1: And Dad was a very easy going persons because I

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Speaker 1: don't know how much he was consulted about any of this,

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Speaker 1: but you know, and it was back in the day

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Speaker 1: when nothing was regulated, so you could just go and say,

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Speaker 1: I'll take your kids for yes, you know, yes.

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Speaker 2: Two weeks, three weeks. And you could have a dog, yes,

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Speaker 2: without it being registered with the council. And you could

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Speaker 2: have a cat that was allowed to go outside.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you could have all that. We had, kangaroos, we

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Speaker 1: had sheep. It was all in our back garden. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: guinea pigs, mice, you know, you name it. We kind

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Speaker 1: of was the house where everything was happening.

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Speaker 2: And so you had this template because I often think

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Speaker 2: parents is often an emphasis, and particularly I think for

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Speaker 2: women of you know, we like to say I tell

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Speaker 2: my children this, and I tell them that, and I

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Speaker 2: tell them they're self worth. And but what we learn

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Speaker 2: most from is what is modeled for us, I think.

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Speaker 2: And so through your mother you had this modeling of

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Speaker 2: if something didn't exist, you build it. And also you welcome, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you welcome those who were in need. Absolutely. And then

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Speaker 2: at what point did young Kadi Gallaher go, I think

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Speaker 2: there's a life for me in politics. Well that sort

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Speaker 2: of happened accidentally. I did grow up.

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Speaker 1: My dad was a much more introverted character, but he

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Speaker 1: still demonstrated sort of the same thing that the same

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Speaker 1: work mum did, but in different ways. So he was

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Speaker 1: a lifeline counselor and he was you know, he would

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Speaker 1: support prisoner families because we didn't have a prison in

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Speaker 1: the Act server runs. If you're a prisoner, you got

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Speaker 1: sent to New South Wales and.

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Speaker 2: He would do a lot of work there.

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Speaker 1: So they definitely demonstrated to me and my siblings it

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Speaker 1: wasn't enough to just exist in a society. You had

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Speaker 1: to participate, you know, you had to involve yourself, you

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Speaker 1: had to be a part of it. And so we

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Speaker 1: all grew up like that, like my sisters and nurse

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Speaker 1: you know, has spent her entire life caring for others

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Speaker 1: in a hospital, and I started in in community work,

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Speaker 1: so working with people with a disability and I loved that.

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Speaker 2: So was that like social work or yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was like a community worker we would break with disability,

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Speaker 1: you know, care advocate, so I became a formal advocate

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Speaker 1: where you advocate on a person with the disabilities behalf.

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Speaker 1: So we were closing down sheltered workshops and big institutions

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Speaker 1: and it was a really kind of exciting work and

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Speaker 1: I loved that. Then you know, life happens, events happened.

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Speaker 1: I joined the Labor Party by then because I'd seen

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Speaker 1: things like the Disability Discrimination Act come into being, and

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Speaker 1: I knew that was because of a Labor government and

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Speaker 1: it was changing people's lives and that really excited me

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Speaker 1: and interested me.

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Speaker 2: Who was in power then.

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Speaker 1: That was under Bob Hawk, Yeah, and it was Susan Ryan,

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Speaker 1: who was kind of lead as a minister was leading that.

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Speaker 1: But again I'd put the two things together. I could

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Speaker 1: see how politics could change people's lives and in this

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Speaker 1: case for the better, and that interested me. And I'd

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Speaker 1: been at Union done a politics degree, so I understood politics,

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Speaker 1: but I hadn't joined a political party. But it was

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Speaker 1: at that point that I was like, that's where I belong.

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Speaker 1: That's the party that represents my values. And that's when

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Speaker 1: I joined that. But I just joined it as anyone

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Speaker 1: else you know, like a member. I never thought i'd

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Speaker 1: be a politician, but you know, life happens, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: you come to a big moment or a fork in

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Speaker 1: the road and life sent you on another path. You

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Speaker 1: weren't expecting it and you didn't seek it out.

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Speaker 2: What was that moment for you?

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Speaker 1: Well, that was when so my partner died in a

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Speaker 1: Yeah he at the time, yeah, yeah, So he was

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Speaker 1: very active in the labor party. He and I were

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Speaker 1: going to get married. I was pregnant with our baby.

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Speaker 2: How old were you then?

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Speaker 1: I was twenty seven, right, yeah, twenty six, probably twenty six,

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Speaker 1: twenty seven. And he would if you'd known us back then,

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Speaker 1: he would have been the front person in that, you know,

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Speaker 1: he would have been the active kind of I could

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Speaker 1: definitely imagine him as a politician. He was more extroverted, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, just involved in everything, whereas I was your

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Speaker 1: average branch member, just going along having a nice glass

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Speaker 1: of wine, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And what was his interest? What was Brett's

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Speaker 2: interest in politics? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Well he was he was a big union guy. So

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Speaker 1: he he'd worked as a union officer, he'd worked for

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Speaker 1: the nurses union.

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Speaker 2: Just before the accident.

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Speaker 1: He was about to work with the Public Service Union,

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Speaker 1: so he'd very much come from a kind of workers'

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Speaker 1: rights you know, position Act you wish, Yeah, so the

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Speaker 1: equivalent in the Act. But he was well connected, you know,

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Speaker 1: and he was great with people, and he was enthusiastic,

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Speaker 1: and it was all the things that you can see

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Speaker 1: people working their way up through the labor party.

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Speaker 2: He had all of that and obviously other personal attributes

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Speaker 2: as well that made you fall in love with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean interesting, you know, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's been a long time since he passed away, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were just like any other young couple in there,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: So you're age, everything's ascendant. Really, it's one of those

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Speaker 2: sweet spots in life. Both of you are on an

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Speaker 2: upward trajectory with each other and with your lives. I

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Speaker 2: did not know this about you, didn't you. I did

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Speaker 2: not know, And it explains I think so much of

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Speaker 2: how you're described, which is always very empathetic and someone

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Speaker 2: who has a very grounded understanding of life. And I

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Speaker 2: think that often that comes from people because they also

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Speaker 2: have an understanding of death. And that is what happened

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Speaker 2: with Brett. What happened. So thank you for that that's

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Speaker 2: very nice of you to say that.

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Speaker 1: And there is something in experiencing death at a young

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Speaker 1: age that shapes you. I definitely think that is true.

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Speaker 2: So Brett had ridden.

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Speaker 1: He was a bike rider, like road bike rider, and

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Speaker 1: he and I had been down to essentially near was

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Speaker 1: in Mount Beauty, so around there Beautiful in what was

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Speaker 1: called the ord As Challenge.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like a two hundred kilometer bike rade.

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Speaker 2: My husband has ridden. He's also a cyclist. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so when I was discovering this about you, it was chilling. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he'd just done that race and we decided to

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Speaker 1: kind of take the slow road back to Canberra, which

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Speaker 1: was through the coast road, so up the south coast.

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Speaker 2: So you're coming from the high country in Victoria exactly,

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Speaker 2: you're making your way back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we thought we'd have an extra night away,

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Speaker 1: so we stopped at Marimbula and for the night and

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Speaker 1: then we're going to stay. I think we were going

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Speaker 1: to stay a couple of nights and then head back

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Speaker 1: to Canberra. And he went out for a bike ride

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Speaker 1: that morning. So the first morning we were there and

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Speaker 1: we arranged to meet at the beach he would finish

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Speaker 1: his ride and have a swim. I would wait for

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Speaker 1: him at the beach and he just never showed up,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I had to go and try and

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Speaker 1: find him. Where it was before mobile phones, it was

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Speaker 1: before you know, it's a different world than what you

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Speaker 1: have now, where you can sort of track people and

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Speaker 1: trace and you know, because I thought, oh, maybe he's

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Speaker 1: got a flat tire, he's stuck on the roads, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's and there was no way of contacting me. And

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Speaker 1: so I went out looking for him and couldn't find him.

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Speaker 1: So I rang all the hostspits.

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Speaker 2: How did you know where to start to look?

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Speaker 1: Well, Mimenbial is pretty small, and I knew he was

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Speaker 1: going for about an hour.

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Speaker 2: And a half, so i'd be along the coast, probably

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Speaker 2: around them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought i'd follow the main roads because

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Speaker 1: I think he would have been on those, like he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have gone off on a track. And anyway, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't find him. I rang the hospitals. Nobody, you know,

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Speaker 1: the two kind of local hospitals. Nobody could help me there,

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Speaker 1: And so I just kept driving and driving, getting more

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Speaker 1: and more worried because time was, you know, was our

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Speaker 1: time to meet up had significantly elapsed, so I knew

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Speaker 1: something was wrong, and I turned on the local radio station.

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Speaker 2: I heard on the radio that the.

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Speaker 1: Police were looking for the relatives of a cyclist who'd

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Speaker 1: been killed earlier that morning, and that's how I found out.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, even when I talk about it now,

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Speaker 1: it's Abby, our.

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Speaker 2: Daughter, who was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I was about fourteen weeks pregnant, so it was reasonably early,

306
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Speaker 1: but people knew and we'd been sort of celebrating that.

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Speaker 1: It's about it's twenty eight years ago now almost twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's still like when I talk through it,

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Speaker 1: I can still viscerally remember that day and how it was.

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Speaker 2: And then how do you how do you transition out

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Speaker 2: of a period like that that is marked by so

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Speaker 2: much grief, grief for the loss of bread, grief for

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Speaker 2: the loss that you were going to have, the life

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Speaker 2: you were going to have. But at the same time,

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Speaker 2: you're pregnant with your first child. How was that? How

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Speaker 2: did you approach that?

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Speaker 1: So I was terrible, Like, the real and honest answer

318
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Speaker 1: is I was terrible.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 1: I've never I hope to never experience that again. But

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Speaker 1: I sunk into a very deep depression.

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Speaker 2: So as you say.

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Speaker 1: I'd gone from thinking, you know, this is my life,

324
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Speaker 1: I'm on this path, and all of a sudden something happens.

325
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Speaker 1: Brett was hit by a car and by someone who'd

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Speaker 1: had a restricted license as well, so I shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: actually been driving. So there was a lot of this,

328
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Speaker 1: a lot of this how could this happen? So I

329
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Speaker 1: went through that this is very awful, unfair, kind of

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Speaker 1: selfish grief, but I don't mean that in a negative way,

331
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Speaker 1: just kind of you're in that zone. And then I

332
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Speaker 1: think I sunk into a much deeper depression that actually

333
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Speaker 1: I needed to get help to get out of I

334
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Speaker 1: was I was in, you know, it wasn't I stopped eating,

335
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Speaker 1: I stopped drinking, I stopped communicating with anyone, and I

336
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Speaker 1: was pregnant.

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Speaker 2: I ended up in hospital dehydrated.

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Speaker 1: I ended up only being let out if I agreed

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Speaker 1: to see a psychiatrist. And then I got in the

340
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Speaker 1: high risk pregnancy clinic and they didn't know what to

341
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Speaker 1: do with me. So all of that happened, and in

342
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Speaker 1: the end, I went on antidepressants at the right time,

343
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Speaker 1: and that got me in reasonable shape, along with some

344
00:19:20,485 --> 00:19:24,205
Speaker 1: therapy and being left to myself. Really I moved into

345
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Speaker 1: a house by myself because I couldn't go back to

346
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Speaker 1: where we lived, and I just bunkered down.

347
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Speaker 2: And where were your parents and your family in that period,

348
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Speaker 2: and your union family and your ALP family. So they

349
00:19:39,245 --> 00:19:39,925
Speaker 2: were all around.

350
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Speaker 1: I mean Dad had passed away a couple of years

351
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Speaker 1: before that, and they were all wanting to help, but

352
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Speaker 1: I was so into my grief nobody really could. I had,

353
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Speaker 1: you know, friends would wait outside for me to open

354
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Speaker 1: the door, and I just wouldn't open the door because

355
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Speaker 1: I couldn't confront what was going on. Like I just

356
00:19:58,245 --> 00:20:03,125
Speaker 1: felt so sideswiped and it was so diffent, you know,

357
00:20:03,205 --> 00:20:06,285
Speaker 1: it was just unimaginable. And then to have people looking

358
00:20:06,325 --> 00:20:08,765
Speaker 1: at me and feeling sorry for me would tip.

359
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Speaker 2: Me over the deep.

360
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Speaker 1: And so I think that was really hard for my

361
00:20:11,925 --> 00:20:14,085
Speaker 1: family and friends because at that time they wanted to

362
00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:16,565
Speaker 1: help me a lot, and I couldn't accept their help.

363
00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:19,005
Speaker 1: I had to and I'm still a bit like this.

364
00:20:19,085 --> 00:20:22,965
Speaker 1: When something difficult happens, I have to work through it

365
00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:25,565
Speaker 1: myself to get out of it. And that's what happened,

366
00:20:25,605 --> 00:20:29,085
Speaker 1: with the help of some medication, and it was a

367
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Speaker 1: doctor just saying to me, you're going to have to

368
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Speaker 1: snap out of it in like, I don't know, in

369
00:20:34,925 --> 00:20:37,525
Speaker 1: two months time with your baby coming, you're going to

370
00:20:37,605 --> 00:20:39,925
Speaker 1: have a baby, and you have to look after this baby,

371
00:20:40,005 --> 00:20:42,645
Speaker 1: and you're in you can't look after yourself, Like what

372
00:20:42,685 --> 00:20:46,645
Speaker 1: are you thinking? And it was that doctor speaking very

373
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Speaker 1: bluntly to me that made me kind of go, I

374
00:20:49,365 --> 00:20:52,605
Speaker 1: have to get my shit together, like this is real

375
00:20:53,325 --> 00:20:57,005
Speaker 1: and I have to get myself together. And but I

376
00:20:57,005 --> 00:20:59,805
Speaker 1: didn't do any pre natal care.

377
00:21:00,045 --> 00:21:00,445
Speaker 2: I didn't.

378
00:21:00,685 --> 00:21:04,085
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't do anything about delivery, you know,

379
00:21:04,165 --> 00:21:05,485
Speaker 1: labor and delivery.

380
00:21:05,245 --> 00:21:08,445
Speaker 2: Class So how to go to the classes? I couldn't.

381
00:21:08,485 --> 00:21:09,045
Speaker 2: You couldn't.

382
00:21:09,805 --> 00:21:12,205
Speaker 1: You couldn't, So I knew nothing, which is probably better.

383
00:21:12,485 --> 00:21:15,685
Speaker 2: And also because if you went into the classes and

384
00:21:15,725 --> 00:21:19,205
Speaker 2: you didn't have the man who was the father of

385
00:21:19,245 --> 00:21:21,205
Speaker 2: your baby with you, you would have to do so

386
00:21:21,325 --> 00:21:24,645
Speaker 2: much explaining that just the thought of that, yeah it's

387
00:21:24,685 --> 00:21:26,165
Speaker 2: not cropping. Yeah.

388
00:21:26,365 --> 00:21:28,085
Speaker 1: So I didn't do any of that. I had no

389
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Speaker 1: connection to anything. And in fact, the day I went

390
00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:33,605
Speaker 1: into labor, I rang my sister and told her I

391
00:21:33,645 --> 00:21:38,285
Speaker 1: had a stomach ache, and she like, Katie, I think

392
00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:40,845
Speaker 1: you have more than a stomach ache, and went and

393
00:21:40,845 --> 00:21:44,805
Speaker 1: that's when it dawned on me, like I was so dislocated.

394
00:21:45,605 --> 00:21:48,525
Speaker 1: It's really odd. I don't know how to describe it. Anyway,

395
00:21:48,565 --> 00:21:52,045
Speaker 1: the minute that baby came out, I tell you, everything,

396
00:21:52,805 --> 00:21:56,725
Speaker 1: everything went up, you know everything, I just I had

397
00:21:56,765 --> 00:21:57,405
Speaker 1: something else.

398
00:21:57,525 --> 00:21:59,245
Speaker 2: You return to yourself.

399
00:21:59,485 --> 00:22:03,925
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was almost almost immediate. Like I was still

400
00:22:04,285 --> 00:22:07,405
Speaker 1: very lonely and on my own and wanting to do that,

401
00:22:07,445 --> 00:22:14,325
Speaker 1: but I had this amazing thing baby, and yeah, and

402
00:22:14,405 --> 00:22:17,965
Speaker 1: she was precious not just to me, but to Brett's family,

403
00:22:18,365 --> 00:22:21,565
Speaker 1: to my family. And even though it's a lot to

404
00:22:21,605 --> 00:22:23,885
Speaker 1: ask a little baby to do, she did a lot

405
00:22:23,925 --> 00:22:26,845
Speaker 1: of healing without knowing. She didn't know, she didn't know,

406
00:22:26,925 --> 00:22:30,725
Speaker 1: but she did. And she continues to be like that.

407
00:22:30,885 --> 00:22:33,565
Speaker 2: And babies are like that anyway. When a baby comes

408
00:22:33,605 --> 00:22:38,645
Speaker 2: into your orbit, it's like staring at a fire. Everyone

409
00:22:38,885 --> 00:22:44,645
Speaker 2: just you can't help. Yeah, there's something magical about it.

410
00:22:44,605 --> 00:22:49,005
Speaker 1: Totally and everyone, everyone almost felt like a whole Camber

411
00:22:49,165 --> 00:22:52,805
Speaker 1: rejoiced when he was born. And she was healthy and

412
00:22:52,925 --> 00:22:56,605
Speaker 1: gorgeous and brought a lot, you know, brought me back

413
00:22:57,005 --> 00:22:58,365
Speaker 1: back to the real world.

414
00:23:01,685 --> 00:23:04,765
Speaker 2: After the break, Katie, She's house. Stepping back into the

415
00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:12,725
Speaker 2: real world was her unexpected pathway to politics. When you

416
00:23:12,805 --> 00:23:17,005
Speaker 2: came back to the real world, what was that process

417
00:23:17,045 --> 00:23:17,485
Speaker 2: for you?

418
00:23:18,245 --> 00:23:22,285
Speaker 1: It was hard to kind of reintegrate still because you know,

419
00:23:22,365 --> 00:23:24,645
Speaker 1: I didn't like being the center of things and it

420
00:23:24,685 --> 00:23:27,565
Speaker 1: felt it just felt very exposed because of you know,

421
00:23:28,085 --> 00:23:32,925
Speaker 1: everyone knew your story. But a lot of people had

422
00:23:32,925 --> 00:23:35,925
Speaker 1: really helped me when I was unable to help myself.

423
00:23:36,005 --> 00:23:40,045
Speaker 2: So the Labor Party locally had been enormous help. The

424
00:23:40,165 --> 00:23:41,365
Speaker 2: Union movement had.

425
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:44,205
Speaker 1: Been you know, things like helping you pay for funerals

426
00:23:44,205 --> 00:23:47,445
Speaker 1: and stuff like that you'd never made. You'd never even

427
00:23:47,485 --> 00:23:51,645
Speaker 1: thought about. People stepping in and helping getting legal advice,

428
00:23:51,965 --> 00:23:53,765
Speaker 1: you know, all the stuff that I needed to do

429
00:23:53,845 --> 00:23:57,125
Speaker 1: because of the situation that I was in, and so

430
00:23:57,205 --> 00:23:59,925
Speaker 1: they had been amazing. And when I did start getting

431
00:23:59,925 --> 00:24:02,485
Speaker 1: my got myself back together, I got back to work,

432
00:24:02,965 --> 00:24:05,325
Speaker 1: I needed to repay a bit of that I felt.

433
00:24:05,605 --> 00:24:07,685
Speaker 1: And that's what got me into politics.

434
00:24:07,685 --> 00:24:11,765
Speaker 2: That's a long way of how I got it.

435
00:24:11,965 --> 00:24:15,485
Speaker 1: Because then there was not enough women standing for election

436
00:24:15,645 --> 00:24:18,285
Speaker 1: in Canberra at the time. So this is for the

437
00:24:18,325 --> 00:24:22,525
Speaker 1: local assembly like this territory parliament, and a lot of

438
00:24:22,565 --> 00:24:24,805
Speaker 1: women didn't want to put their hands up and we

439
00:24:24,805 --> 00:24:27,405
Speaker 1: were trying to make sure we were getting women into politics,

440
00:24:27,405 --> 00:24:29,565
Speaker 1: and I'd been part of that just as a member,

441
00:24:30,245 --> 00:24:32,565
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden everyone was looking at.

442
00:24:32,485 --> 00:24:35,725
Speaker 2: Me, going, well, hang on a minute, what are you doing.

443
00:24:35,805 --> 00:24:36,845
Speaker 2: Why can't you do it?

444
00:24:36,885 --> 00:24:39,165
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I've got a lot on

445
00:24:40,045 --> 00:24:44,325
Speaker 1: But I realized also that if we wanted more women elected,

446
00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:46,525
Speaker 1: women had to put their hand up in the first place,

447
00:24:46,565 --> 00:24:47,965
Speaker 1: otherwise it wasn't going to change.

448
00:24:48,005 --> 00:24:49,365
Speaker 2: So it wasn't just me.

449
00:24:49,445 --> 00:24:51,805
Speaker 1: There was a group about eight of us that stood

450
00:24:52,205 --> 00:24:55,685
Speaker 1: as candidates in that election, and two of us got elected,

451
00:24:55,725 --> 00:24:57,885
Speaker 1: and I was one of them. Wow, And I was

452
00:24:57,925 --> 00:25:00,245
Speaker 1: told I wouldn't win, and I just needed to.

453
00:25:00,205 --> 00:25:03,085
Speaker 2: Do it, go through the emotions, and you know, well,

454
00:25:03,125 --> 00:25:05,365
Speaker 2: it is one of those things I think politics that

455
00:25:05,525 --> 00:25:08,085
Speaker 2: often people will have a tilt at it, thinking well,

456
00:25:08,085 --> 00:25:10,165
Speaker 2: I'm not going to win this time time anyway. But

457
00:25:10,245 --> 00:25:12,805
Speaker 2: then at least I blooded myself and I know what

458
00:25:12,965 --> 00:25:16,805
Speaker 2: comes yeah next. But you actually I won by like you.

459
00:25:16,765 --> 00:25:19,525
Speaker 1: One, I don't know by some It's a it's a

460
00:25:19,605 --> 00:25:23,965
Speaker 1: very complicated electoral system in the act called hair Clark

461
00:25:24,005 --> 00:25:27,565
Speaker 1: with Robson rotation. It's the same electoral system as Tasmania.

462
00:25:27,565 --> 00:25:30,125
Speaker 1: But this is like homo, Yeah, I was gonna say,

463
00:25:30,125 --> 00:25:36,445
Speaker 1: it's like a moro anyway, hard electoral system, hard to

464
00:25:36,445 --> 00:25:39,325
Speaker 1: get elected. I was told it wouldn't happen, but like

465
00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:42,965
Speaker 1: it was like seventy votes out of seventy thousand cars,

466
00:25:43,005 --> 00:25:43,845
Speaker 1: you know, like it was.

467
00:25:45,485 --> 00:25:45,765
Speaker 3: I was.

468
00:25:46,165 --> 00:25:50,445
Speaker 1: I basically scraped over the line and it was a

469
00:25:50,445 --> 00:25:55,125
Speaker 1: surprise to everyone, including other people in the parliament, none

470
00:25:55,165 --> 00:25:55,925
Speaker 1: of whom I knew.

471
00:25:56,165 --> 00:25:58,765
Speaker 2: Like I was just like, oh, hi, Katie's I'm here.

472
00:25:59,045 --> 00:26:00,725
Speaker 2: I don't know what this is about.

473
00:26:00,485 --> 00:26:03,765
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I would say the other great thing

474
00:26:04,205 --> 00:26:07,645
Speaker 1: because it is about putting yourself out there and that

475
00:26:07,645 --> 00:26:11,605
Speaker 1: that campaign was art for me. It was hard to

476
00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:14,125
Speaker 1: stand on the corner of street store, so.

477
00:26:14,085 --> 00:26:17,805
Speaker 2: You really were like door knocking it introducing yourself and

478
00:26:17,805 --> 00:26:20,485
Speaker 2: that is hard. And so how did you sell yourself,

479
00:26:20,525 --> 00:26:22,925
Speaker 2: by the way, what was it that you were offering?

480
00:26:24,085 --> 00:26:27,205
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it was I kind of campaigned on

481
00:26:27,245 --> 00:26:29,605
Speaker 1: the areas of strength that I felt I had. So

482
00:26:29,645 --> 00:26:32,405
Speaker 1: I had a young child, so I did a lot

483
00:26:32,445 --> 00:26:35,765
Speaker 1: of campaigning around childcare, you know, because it was sort

484
00:26:35,765 --> 00:26:38,885
Speaker 1: of issues that people could connect with authenticity to me

485
00:26:39,765 --> 00:26:42,365
Speaker 1: and the fact that we needed some women in the parliament.

486
00:26:42,805 --> 00:26:47,005
Speaker 1: We had some very regressive abortion laws in the Act

487
00:26:47,165 --> 00:26:50,925
Speaker 1: that had been bought in by some male members, and

488
00:26:51,645 --> 00:26:55,365
Speaker 1: like too many women, they were pretty offensive in terms of,

489
00:26:55,445 --> 00:26:58,205
Speaker 1: you know, having to stare at pictures of fetuses and

490
00:26:58,245 --> 00:27:01,485
Speaker 1: things like that before you were allowed to get medical assistance.

491
00:27:01,605 --> 00:27:05,285
Speaker 1: And so that motivated me as well. And there was

492
00:27:05,325 --> 00:27:08,925
Speaker 1: a big It had been a very male dominated parliament

493
00:27:08,965 --> 00:27:12,085
Speaker 1: and that election in two thousand and one changed that.

494
00:27:12,205 --> 00:27:13,765
Speaker 2: A lot of women were elected, so.

495
00:27:13,685 --> 00:27:17,525
Speaker 1: There was a very strong vote of women wanting to

496
00:27:17,565 --> 00:27:20,765
Speaker 1: see change happen in their parliament. And I think I

497
00:27:21,125 --> 00:27:23,925
Speaker 1: just happened to be one of those people in the

498
00:27:24,005 --> 00:27:26,125
Speaker 1: right place at the right time. And I was a

499
00:27:26,165 --> 00:27:28,325
Speaker 1: local too, and I think that probably helped me with

500
00:27:28,365 --> 00:27:30,805
Speaker 1: those seventy votes. Like you know, people go, oh, I

501
00:27:30,845 --> 00:27:34,005
Speaker 1: went to school with her, or I knew Betsy. I

502
00:27:34,045 --> 00:27:37,125
Speaker 1: bet Betsy was a bit of a vote puller. So

503
00:27:37,205 --> 00:27:39,125
Speaker 1: there was a bit of that going on as well.

504
00:27:39,485 --> 00:27:41,965
Speaker 2: And so then so you've got how old's abby at

505
00:27:41,965 --> 00:27:48,285
Speaker 2: this point she was four. Then you embark on what's

506
00:27:48,325 --> 00:27:51,005
Speaker 2: the start of your political career? I mean, everything seems,

507
00:27:52,045 --> 00:27:54,845
Speaker 2: you know, self evident in retrospect, but at the time,

508
00:27:54,885 --> 00:27:57,285
Speaker 2: what did you think you were going to be doing

509
00:27:57,365 --> 00:27:59,245
Speaker 2: or how long did you think it was going to last.

510
00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:02,165
Speaker 2: I had no idea. I really didn't. I didn't know.

511
00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:04,685
Speaker 1: How to speak publicly. I didn't know how to give

512
00:28:04,685 --> 00:28:05,205
Speaker 1: a speech.

513
00:28:05,245 --> 00:28:10,365
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I was so unprepared for that job.

514
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:14,165
Speaker 2: But do you also think that that's kind of a strength. Yeah,

515
00:28:14,205 --> 00:28:16,445
Speaker 2: I think in hindsight, But at the time, you know,

516
00:28:16,485 --> 00:28:19,285
Speaker 2: when we're all you just saw your shortcomings.

517
00:28:18,965 --> 00:28:21,125
Speaker 1: And you know it's probably at my age. I was,

518
00:28:21,365 --> 00:28:23,285
Speaker 1: you know, just thirty, and I was like, there was

519
00:28:23,325 --> 00:28:25,285
Speaker 1: all these people more knowledgeable. So it's a bit of

520
00:28:25,285 --> 00:28:28,125
Speaker 1: that imposter syndrome that we all get from time to time.

521
00:28:29,045 --> 00:28:30,165
Speaker 2: So it was a but yeah.

522
00:28:30,205 --> 00:28:32,965
Speaker 1: But as it turned out, the fact that I wasn't

523
00:28:33,125 --> 00:28:36,805
Speaker 1: like that turned out to be a strength in terms

524
00:28:36,805 --> 00:28:39,525
Speaker 1: of certainly the support I got while I was there,

525
00:28:39,645 --> 00:28:43,005
Speaker 1: because I was there for about another four elections and ended.

526
00:28:42,885 --> 00:28:47,325
Speaker 2: Up chief minister, which is a big job.

527
00:28:47,845 --> 00:28:51,685
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a mayor and other things in Cambra.

528
00:28:51,845 --> 00:28:53,325
Speaker 2: Like, it is a big job. I don't want to

529
00:28:53,325 --> 00:28:56,725
Speaker 2: diminish it. It is a big job. It's a big job. Yeah,

530
00:28:56,725 --> 00:29:00,125
Speaker 2: And then what happened with you personally in that time?

531
00:29:00,765 --> 00:29:05,485
Speaker 2: So I guess I've always thought of politics as being

532
00:29:05,525 --> 00:29:11,765
Speaker 2: so consuming that there's not much opportunity for your personal

533
00:29:11,965 --> 00:29:17,765
Speaker 2: expressional love or romance or whatever. But I'm wrong, aren't I? Yes,

534
00:29:17,845 --> 00:29:19,045
Speaker 2: I've been very lucky.

535
00:29:19,405 --> 00:29:22,325
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, to have a you know,

536
00:29:22,445 --> 00:29:26,765
Speaker 1: to experience love in a long lasting way, and to

537
00:29:26,885 --> 00:29:30,085
Speaker 1: experience that twice in a life, you are pretty fortunate.

538
00:29:30,885 --> 00:29:34,205
Speaker 1: So yeah, I met Dave through this will be funny,

539
00:29:34,245 --> 00:29:36,725
Speaker 1: but he worked at the Assembly in the kind of

540
00:29:36,725 --> 00:29:39,925
Speaker 1: public service side, not the political side, and that's how

541
00:29:40,085 --> 00:29:42,405
Speaker 1: I met him. But also because he had a beagle

542
00:29:42,525 --> 00:29:45,965
Speaker 1: and Abby and I had a beagle. Oh and so

543
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:49,445
Speaker 1: we had this beagle catch up and that was our

544
00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:51,685
Speaker 1: first day, was to introduce the beagle.

545
00:29:51,845 --> 00:29:54,605
Speaker 2: Hang on who suggested the beagle catch up? Because that

546
00:29:54,765 --> 00:29:58,085
Speaker 2: is the that's a ruse. If ever, I've heard one

547
00:29:58,285 --> 00:30:00,605
Speaker 2: for someone who liked someone. I know.

548
00:30:00,805 --> 00:30:02,885
Speaker 1: It was pretty tragic, isn't it? When you think I

549
00:30:02,925 --> 00:30:05,005
Speaker 1: can't remember? It was just like, oh, so you've got

550
00:30:05,005 --> 00:30:08,485
Speaker 1: a bagel, I've got a beagle. Let's get the beagles together,

551
00:30:08,925 --> 00:30:09,845
Speaker 1: which we did.

552
00:30:09,885 --> 00:30:12,845
Speaker 2: Did the beagles get on? They did? Tommy and Bubba

553
00:30:12,965 --> 00:30:17,485
Speaker 2: had great life together. Big sniffers beagles, and.

554
00:30:17,565 --> 00:30:21,565
Speaker 1: David's bagel was very naughty and mine was very well behaved,

555
00:30:21,805 --> 00:30:23,685
Speaker 1: so a metaphor.

556
00:30:24,965 --> 00:30:25,485
Speaker 2: Perhaps.

557
00:30:25,845 --> 00:30:28,405
Speaker 1: And the other thing was Dave was a you know,

558
00:30:28,605 --> 00:30:31,765
Speaker 1: he didn't have children, so and I don't know that

559
00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:34,925
Speaker 1: it ever really like he wasn't one of those people

560
00:30:35,005 --> 00:30:37,965
Speaker 1: dying for children, and so that was that was an

561
00:30:37,965 --> 00:30:40,925
Speaker 1: added element which I actually again turned out to be

562
00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:45,165
Speaker 1: really wonderful because Abby has a very Abby is a

563
00:30:45,445 --> 00:30:50,605
Speaker 1: raving extrovert and just loves everybody. That's her personality style,

564
00:30:50,645 --> 00:30:54,205
Speaker 1: and so she just adored him. Made it easy, so easy,

565
00:30:54,325 --> 00:30:56,845
Speaker 1: and I mean it was impossible not to love Abby

566
00:30:56,925 --> 00:30:59,725
Speaker 1: and to get caught up in everything that she was

567
00:30:59,845 --> 00:31:05,045
Speaker 1: up to. And so yeah, we yeah, it was. It's

568
00:31:05,125 --> 00:31:08,085
Speaker 1: lovely finding David and he of course I haven't you know,

569
00:31:08,205 --> 00:31:09,085
Speaker 1: I found him and I've.

570
00:31:09,045 --> 00:31:12,605
Speaker 2: Kept but you haven't. You're not married, No, we're not married.

571
00:31:12,685 --> 00:31:13,485
Speaker 2: It's very modern.

572
00:31:14,525 --> 00:31:18,845
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's sort of a I noticed a

573
00:31:18,885 --> 00:31:22,085
Speaker 1: lot of my niece, my niece and her generation are

574
00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:23,805
Speaker 1: all getting married again.

575
00:31:24,005 --> 00:31:27,005
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like come full. I feel like my.

576
00:31:27,125 --> 00:31:31,445
Speaker 1: Generation it was part of our kind of feminism and

577
00:31:31,525 --> 00:31:35,325
Speaker 1: not being owned and not having those traditional structures around

578
00:31:35,325 --> 00:31:37,645
Speaker 1: our relationships or not feeling the need to. You know,

579
00:31:38,725 --> 00:31:41,925
Speaker 1: I've never felt the need to be married, and so

580
00:31:42,085 --> 00:31:42,845
Speaker 1: we just never have.

581
00:31:43,325 --> 00:31:45,125
Speaker 2: We bought a house together. I thought that was more

582
00:31:45,405 --> 00:31:48,165
Speaker 2: do you feel the need because no, I think men

583
00:31:48,205 --> 00:31:51,645
Speaker 2: are often a little bit more traditional in that sense

584
00:31:52,325 --> 00:31:54,445
Speaker 2: than this generation of women.

585
00:31:54,485 --> 00:31:58,445
Speaker 1: Anyway, No, I think he was completely fine with that.

586
00:31:58,565 --> 00:32:01,005
Speaker 1: And for he and I when we bought a house together,

587
00:32:01,085 --> 00:32:03,365
Speaker 1: I really felt that was our married paper.

588
00:32:04,365 --> 00:32:06,845
Speaker 2: That's the And then we've been very fortunate.

589
00:32:06,885 --> 00:32:11,405
Speaker 1: I got two children, Charlie and Evie, right, who are

590
00:32:11,765 --> 00:32:16,325
Speaker 1: eighteen and almost twenty, So there's ten years between top

591
00:32:16,365 --> 00:32:18,645
Speaker 1: and bottom, which means I have been a parent for

592
00:32:18,765 --> 00:32:20,965
Speaker 1: my feels like my entire life.

593
00:32:22,205 --> 00:32:25,325
Speaker 2: But I'm almost through it now. How well you we

594
00:32:25,405 --> 00:32:33,125
Speaker 2: think that, Well, I'm through that kind of real intense mothering. Yes, stage.

595
00:32:33,485 --> 00:32:37,605
Speaker 2: How was it with Dave when you had Charlie, so

596
00:32:38,085 --> 00:32:43,045
Speaker 2: first boy having had a daughter, and his first biological child,

597
00:32:43,085 --> 00:32:47,085
Speaker 2: though he obviously had had Abby, had decided that that

598
00:32:47,245 --> 00:32:50,965
Speaker 2: was her Abby Dave very early on. How was that?

599
00:32:51,725 --> 00:32:52,365
Speaker 2: It was lovely?

600
00:32:52,965 --> 00:32:57,365
Speaker 1: Charlie was so Dave's the eldest in his family. So

601
00:32:57,445 --> 00:33:01,485
Speaker 1: Abby and Charlie were the first grandchildren in that in

602
00:33:01,525 --> 00:33:05,805
Speaker 1: the line that came so yeah, people, I mean Charlie's

603
00:33:05,845 --> 00:33:09,805
Speaker 1: he's just adorable. Was wonderful to have, you know, so again,

604
00:33:10,005 --> 00:33:13,725
Speaker 1: just experience all that in a much happier way. Although

605
00:33:14,245 --> 00:33:17,085
Speaker 1: my mother died when I was pregnant with Charlie, so

606
00:33:17,365 --> 00:33:20,645
Speaker 1: I did have a kind of another traumatic episode when

607
00:33:21,445 --> 00:33:25,085
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, but that was more like she'd been

608
00:33:25,165 --> 00:33:27,765
Speaker 1: unwell with cancer for a long time, so that was

609
00:33:27,805 --> 00:33:28,605
Speaker 1: more expected.

610
00:33:28,645 --> 00:33:29,965
Speaker 2: But Charlie was.

611
00:33:30,045 --> 00:33:32,885
Speaker 1: Another gift in that way to the family, another healing

612
00:33:33,085 --> 00:33:39,165
Speaker 1: part of life and happy and healthy and easy. And

613
00:33:39,605 --> 00:33:41,565
Speaker 1: Dave kind of rolled his sleeves up and had some

614
00:33:42,165 --> 00:33:43,285
Speaker 1: parental leave.

615
00:33:43,445 --> 00:33:45,925
Speaker 2: Because what was happening with your career at this point.

616
00:33:45,805 --> 00:33:48,405
Speaker 1: Oh it was madness. So it was like it was around.

617
00:33:48,485 --> 00:33:50,485
Speaker 1: So Charlie was born in two thousand and six. I

618
00:33:50,525 --> 00:33:53,965
Speaker 1: was Deputy Chief Minister then and we had an election.

619
00:33:54,965 --> 00:33:57,605
Speaker 1: Oh so he was born mid cycle. So that was

620
00:33:57,685 --> 00:34:02,045
Speaker 1: kind of good timing, right, thank you, thank you. Very convenient.

621
00:34:02,525 --> 00:34:05,405
Speaker 1: Eve came along. Not so convenient. She came along about

622
00:34:05,445 --> 00:34:09,845
Speaker 1: eighteen months later. But yeah, it was busy, but it

623
00:34:09,885 --> 00:34:14,405
Speaker 1: was containable in the sense that I don't unlike other jurisdictions.

624
00:34:14,405 --> 00:34:17,845
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of travel in the eight Well.

625
00:34:18,005 --> 00:34:20,125
Speaker 1: You travel from one end of the Act to another

626
00:34:20,245 --> 00:34:21,045
Speaker 1: in half an hour.

627
00:34:21,285 --> 00:34:23,325
Speaker 2: So we just managed it.

628
00:34:23,325 --> 00:34:26,845
Speaker 1: We're a busy family juggling lots of different things, but

629
00:34:26,925 --> 00:34:27,485
Speaker 1: we managed.

630
00:34:27,605 --> 00:34:31,845
Speaker 2: And then when did the calling, like the federal ALP

631
00:34:32,685 --> 00:34:33,765
Speaker 2: calling come.

632
00:34:35,085 --> 00:34:40,325
Speaker 1: So that would have been in twenty fourteen, around twenty fourteen,

633
00:34:40,365 --> 00:34:43,485
Speaker 1: and it was really the retirement of Kate Lundy, who

634
00:34:43,525 --> 00:34:47,285
Speaker 1: was the senator for the Act then, and a few

635
00:34:47,325 --> 00:34:51,645
Speaker 1: people federally sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said,

636
00:34:51,645 --> 00:34:53,725
Speaker 1: we'd like you to join our team.

637
00:34:53,845 --> 00:34:57,405
Speaker 2: So and how is that? That was a discussion, Well,

638
00:34:57,445 --> 00:34:58,045
Speaker 2: I was more.

639
00:34:58,365 --> 00:35:01,005
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd always said in the family, oh yeah,

640
00:35:01,045 --> 00:35:05,245
Speaker 1: in the family, yeah, I mean, I think we'd all realize,

641
00:35:05,285 --> 00:35:09,765
Speaker 1: like I'd been in Act politics for almost fourteen thirteen years.

642
00:35:09,805 --> 00:35:13,565
Speaker 1: By then, I'd been chief Minister for nearly four years,

643
00:35:13,845 --> 00:35:16,085
Speaker 1: and so I had felt I had already made up

644
00:35:16,125 --> 00:35:19,525
Speaker 1: in my mind that I wouldn't contest another election. I

645
00:35:19,565 --> 00:35:22,005
Speaker 1: felt like I'd done what I could and there's no

646
00:35:22,285 --> 00:35:26,005
Speaker 1: end to these jobs. So there's a natural conclusion, and

647
00:35:26,085 --> 00:35:29,205
Speaker 1: so you have to really make a decision, active decision

648
00:35:29,245 --> 00:35:32,125
Speaker 1: to leave and I hadn't made the decision to leave,

649
00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:34,045
Speaker 1: but I had made the decision not to go through

650
00:35:34,085 --> 00:35:37,965
Speaker 1: another local election and to allow others to have a go,

651
00:35:38,685 --> 00:35:41,165
Speaker 1: and so I sort of made peace with that. And

652
00:35:41,245 --> 00:35:44,285
Speaker 1: then this opportunity again just comes really came out of

653
00:35:44,525 --> 00:35:47,365
Speaker 1: left field because Kate had decided to retire, so there

654
00:35:47,405 --> 00:35:51,005
Speaker 1: was a vacancy. You can be appointed to that vacancy,

655
00:35:51,325 --> 00:35:55,165
Speaker 1: and in the Senate and federal Labor wanted me to

656
00:35:55,205 --> 00:35:58,605
Speaker 1: consider that. So Anthony rang me, Bill Shorten rang me,

657
00:35:58,685 --> 00:35:59,725
Speaker 1: Penny Wong rang me.

658
00:36:00,285 --> 00:36:00,445
Speaker 2: You know.

659
00:36:00,485 --> 00:36:03,045
Speaker 1: And when you get those people ringing you saying, please

660
00:36:03,125 --> 00:36:05,965
Speaker 1: consider coming up here, we want you to join our team,

661
00:36:06,965 --> 00:36:07,805
Speaker 1: you think about it.

662
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:12,405
Speaker 2: At that point, what did you want to be your

663
00:36:12,485 --> 00:36:15,765
Speaker 2: contribution to public life.

664
00:36:16,365 --> 00:36:18,765
Speaker 1: So it was at the time also where there had

665
00:36:18,805 --> 00:36:21,005
Speaker 1: been a change of government. The Labor Party was in

666
00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:25,285
Speaker 1: all sorts of bother post the Gillard.

667
00:36:26,085 --> 00:36:28,925
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the tap dance, the musical chairs, and.

668
00:36:29,085 --> 00:36:31,085
Speaker 1: So there'd been sort of there was, you know, it

669
00:36:31,125 --> 00:36:34,685
Speaker 1: was a very hurt and fractured party that Bill was

670
00:36:34,725 --> 00:36:37,085
Speaker 1: trying to rebuild. So there was that sense that you

671
00:36:37,125 --> 00:36:40,925
Speaker 1: could be part of something that was really about rebuilding

672
00:36:41,165 --> 00:36:45,965
Speaker 1: the Labor Party federally. There was also because I had

673
00:36:46,005 --> 00:36:49,565
Speaker 1: been a state leader. Tony Abbott had come in and

674
00:36:50,245 --> 00:36:52,325
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying not to be partisan, but he

675
00:36:52,445 --> 00:36:55,245
Speaker 1: was wanting to make cuts to health and education and

676
00:36:55,285 --> 00:36:59,085
Speaker 1: things like that, which I felt as a former leader

677
00:36:59,125 --> 00:37:02,485
Speaker 1: of a jurisdiction, I knew what that meant to schools

678
00:37:02,525 --> 00:37:05,405
Speaker 1: and hospitals, and so it gave me the opportunity to

679
00:37:05,405 --> 00:37:08,965
Speaker 1: bring that into the federal arena and argue against it,

680
00:37:09,605 --> 00:37:11,805
Speaker 1: which is what politics is all about, you know. It's

681
00:37:11,845 --> 00:37:15,805
Speaker 1: about arguing your position and trying to get enough support

682
00:37:15,925 --> 00:37:17,325
Speaker 1: to win the argument.

683
00:37:17,565 --> 00:37:20,525
Speaker 2: And that was important to me as well, but also

684
00:37:21,485 --> 00:37:27,925
Speaker 2: interesting because obviously in politics you have your main political rival,

685
00:37:29,725 --> 00:37:33,405
Speaker 2: but also within the Labor Party, as you alluded to before,

686
00:37:33,765 --> 00:37:38,885
Speaker 2: it was so fractious and so such a house divided,

687
00:37:39,725 --> 00:37:43,925
Speaker 2: you must be very good at navigating a lot of

688
00:37:43,965 --> 00:37:45,485
Speaker 2: shifting tectonic plates.

689
00:37:46,045 --> 00:37:48,965
Speaker 1: Well, I learned a lot joining the federal team in

690
00:37:49,045 --> 00:37:51,885
Speaker 1: that I feel like I'd been in this love. You

691
00:37:51,925 --> 00:37:56,365
Speaker 1: know that Act Labor, which was a very small party

692
00:37:56,805 --> 00:38:01,965
Speaker 1: in a small jurisdiction, operated very differently from Federal Labor,

693
00:38:02,005 --> 00:38:05,405
Speaker 1: which was a much bigger machine. Across the country. The

694
00:38:05,445 --> 00:38:09,525
Speaker 1: factions were very involved in decisions which hadn't been my

695
00:38:09,605 --> 00:38:12,925
Speaker 1: experience locally. So I had a lot to learn, and

696
00:38:12,965 --> 00:38:16,805
Speaker 1: I found that interesting as well, like you sort of

697
00:38:16,845 --> 00:38:19,605
Speaker 1: did need a guide to help you navigate with some

698
00:38:19,645 --> 00:38:19,885
Speaker 1: of that.

699
00:38:20,365 --> 00:38:22,845
Speaker 2: Even I imagine that if you're talking to the wrong

700
00:38:22,885 --> 00:38:25,805
Speaker 2: person at the wrong time, and I mean, it's.

701
00:38:25,645 --> 00:38:30,125
Speaker 1: So or if you don't understand long histories of yeas

702
00:38:30,405 --> 00:38:33,565
Speaker 1: and do you understand those or did you understand those?

703
00:38:33,725 --> 00:38:33,805
Speaker 2: No?

704
00:38:34,085 --> 00:38:36,645
Speaker 1: I didn't at the time. I understand a lot more

705
00:38:36,645 --> 00:38:40,125
Speaker 1: about it now, And I think when I joined there'd

706
00:38:40,165 --> 00:38:44,085
Speaker 1: been the reckoning had happened, and it was about how

707
00:38:44,125 --> 00:38:49,525
Speaker 1: to rebuild host the Gillard Rudd years. When Bill came

708
00:38:49,565 --> 00:38:52,125
Speaker 1: in and went to the twenty sixteen and the twenty

709
00:38:52,205 --> 00:38:55,605
Speaker 1: nineteen election, A lot of rebuilding happened during that time,

710
00:38:55,845 --> 00:38:58,525
Speaker 1: and a lot of people who were around during the

711
00:38:58,565 --> 00:39:02,965
Speaker 1: difficult years learned the hard way about what happens when

712
00:39:03,765 --> 00:39:06,045
Speaker 1: political parties implode like that.

713
00:39:06,645 --> 00:39:09,325
Speaker 2: And also the people don't want it because the people

714
00:39:09,365 --> 00:39:13,125
Speaker 2: believe and looked to Bill Shorten and went no if

715
00:39:13,405 --> 00:39:18,405
Speaker 2: she maybe possibly just because he'd survived so many, so

716
00:39:18,605 --> 00:39:20,845
Speaker 2: many nights of the long knives.

717
00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:23,165
Speaker 1: Well, I think there was a lot of things that

718
00:39:23,205 --> 00:39:26,005
Speaker 1: make people's minds up at an election. But I mean,

719
00:39:26,245 --> 00:39:28,845
Speaker 1: I think with Bill a lot of credit should be

720
00:39:29,165 --> 00:39:32,885
Speaker 1: given to the sort of structural stability he provided, because

721
00:39:33,405 --> 00:39:37,005
Speaker 1: post Tony Abbott coming into being PM in that election

722
00:39:37,285 --> 00:39:40,285
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen election, it could have got a lot worse,

723
00:39:41,285 --> 00:39:44,685
Speaker 1: you know, and I think Bill managed and that's part

724
00:39:44,685 --> 00:39:47,365
Speaker 1: of his Union background of being people together and all

725
00:39:47,405 --> 00:39:50,285
Speaker 1: of that. Bill managed to kind of write the ship.

726
00:39:50,645 --> 00:39:53,165
Speaker 1: And then it wasn't his time in those two elections,

727
00:39:53,205 --> 00:39:56,965
Speaker 1: and there were policy things that people didn't like, but

728
00:39:57,325 --> 00:40:00,285
Speaker 1: he kind of built the foundation that Anthony was able

729
00:40:00,365 --> 00:40:04,325
Speaker 1: to continue to develop. And so, yeah, I learned a

730
00:40:04,365 --> 00:40:06,965
Speaker 1: lot during that time, and I learned politics at the

731
00:40:06,965 --> 00:40:11,125
Speaker 1: federal level is a lot faster and meaner and more brutal,

732
00:40:11,205 --> 00:40:13,885
Speaker 1: and the press gallery is scare the Jesus out of

733
00:40:13,925 --> 00:40:17,485
Speaker 1: you and all that. That was very different to you know,

734
00:40:17,605 --> 00:40:20,285
Speaker 1: Katie Chief Minister puddling around the act.

735
00:40:21,125 --> 00:40:24,485
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I'm curious about is

736
00:40:25,565 --> 00:40:30,845
Speaker 2: when you're part of a machine, by necessity a machine,

737
00:40:31,645 --> 00:40:35,125
Speaker 2: but you also have your personal integrity and your personal

738
00:40:35,725 --> 00:40:41,645
Speaker 2: beliefs when they're at odds with the party or with

739
00:40:41,725 --> 00:40:44,365
Speaker 2: the government, that you're a part of. How do you

740
00:40:44,445 --> 00:40:48,445
Speaker 2: reconcile that and how do you keep your sense of

741
00:40:48,525 --> 00:40:51,805
Speaker 2: integrity and navigate your way through that.

742
00:40:53,525 --> 00:40:56,525
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a great It is a great question,

743
00:40:56,565 --> 00:40:58,725
Speaker 1: and it's one that a lot of us in politics

744
00:40:59,005 --> 00:41:02,965
Speaker 1: think about a lot deeply about because for the most part,

745
00:41:03,045 --> 00:41:07,685
Speaker 1: it's not a problem for you know, in your day

746
00:41:07,725 --> 00:41:11,525
Speaker 1: to day kind of operation. You know, it's like any

747
00:41:11,525 --> 00:41:14,805
Speaker 1: other workplace. But sometimes there are big things that are

748
00:41:14,845 --> 00:41:17,645
Speaker 1: going on where you know you would have liked a

749
00:41:17,645 --> 00:41:20,525
Speaker 1: bit more action, a bit sooner, or things to be

750
00:41:20,565 --> 00:41:21,485
Speaker 1: done a bit differently.

751
00:41:22,165 --> 00:41:24,525
Speaker 2: And I take the view, and I have had.

752
00:41:24,405 --> 00:41:26,445
Speaker 1: This discussion with a lot of people who criticize the

753
00:41:26,525 --> 00:41:30,765
Speaker 1: Labor Party on different positions. I've taken the view that I,

754
00:41:30,845 --> 00:41:34,685
Speaker 1: for me, it's better to be inside an organization, changing

755
00:41:34,725 --> 00:41:37,605
Speaker 1: it from within and arguing for change than it is

756
00:41:37,645 --> 00:41:40,925
Speaker 1: to be outside throwing stones at it where you have

757
00:41:41,005 --> 00:41:45,285
Speaker 1: no voice to actually influence the decisions the party takes.

758
00:41:45,325 --> 00:41:48,205
Speaker 1: And so there are times when you know you might

759
00:41:48,245 --> 00:41:51,205
Speaker 1: disagree around the table, but part of being part of

760
00:41:51,245 --> 00:41:54,285
Speaker 1: a collective movement is that once consensus has been reached,

761
00:41:54,365 --> 00:41:56,765
Speaker 1: or on the majority has been reached, you lock in

762
00:41:56,885 --> 00:42:01,005
Speaker 1: behind that and sometimes that means you didn't get exactly

763
00:42:01,005 --> 00:42:03,285
Speaker 1: what you want, but that doesn't mean you stop fighting

764
00:42:03,325 --> 00:42:06,365
Speaker 1: for it or arguing for it. And you know, I

765
00:42:06,365 --> 00:42:10,205
Speaker 1: think I can think of plenty things like marriage equality.

766
00:42:10,565 --> 00:42:12,525
Speaker 2: You know, in the Act.

767
00:42:12,325 --> 00:42:16,045
Speaker 1: We passed laws which got overturned unfortunately by the High Court,

768
00:42:16,085 --> 00:42:18,725
Speaker 1: but we led on that. I went to in the

769
00:42:18,765 --> 00:42:21,525
Speaker 1: Federal Parliament, in the Federal Labor Team. It took a

770
00:42:21,525 --> 00:42:25,445
Speaker 1: lot longer to get Federal Labor to a position that

771
00:42:25,525 --> 00:42:30,445
Speaker 1: I believed in, but I was part of working to

772
00:42:30,525 --> 00:42:32,925
Speaker 1: affect that change, just like Penny Wong was who for

773
00:42:33,045 --> 00:42:36,525
Speaker 1: years had stuck with the position even though she disagreed

774
00:42:36,565 --> 00:42:40,005
Speaker 1: with it while she worked for change and good change happens.

775
00:42:40,125 --> 00:42:44,205
Speaker 1: So that's part of being a member of a collective

776
00:42:44,325 --> 00:42:48,165
Speaker 1: movement that has discipline around it, because if you don't

777
00:42:48,165 --> 00:42:50,645
Speaker 1: have that discipline, we'd all just be out every day

778
00:42:50,725 --> 00:42:53,205
Speaker 1: saying whatever we wanted and not being able to land anything.

779
00:42:53,405 --> 00:42:55,805
Speaker 2: Well. I think during the last election it became really

780
00:42:55,885 --> 00:43:01,845
Speaker 2: apparent that there was discipline in the ALP. I think

781
00:43:01,965 --> 00:43:05,845
Speaker 2: more than a lot of the population we're expecting to see.

782
00:43:05,925 --> 00:43:10,965
Speaker 2: Actually it yields results.

783
00:43:11,845 --> 00:43:15,805
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a mix of remembering what happened in

784
00:43:15,845 --> 00:43:19,365
Speaker 1: the last time we were in government and the you know,

785
00:43:19,405 --> 00:43:22,125
Speaker 1: all of the division and where that where that landed us.

786
00:43:22,685 --> 00:43:26,925
Speaker 1: But also I think Anthony's got a lot to take

787
00:43:26,965 --> 00:43:29,525
Speaker 1: credit for there because of his style of leadership. Where

788
00:43:29,645 --> 00:43:34,645
Speaker 1: again he's someone that likes, I think, governing with consensus.

789
00:43:35,485 --> 00:43:38,365
Speaker 1: He doesn't like pitting people against each other. He wants

790
00:43:38,365 --> 00:43:43,525
Speaker 1: to deliver change from the center, and certainly our cabinet,

791
00:43:43,645 --> 00:43:49,325
Speaker 1: our caucus, even all the new members. Everybody understands that

792
00:43:49,685 --> 00:43:52,885
Speaker 1: and it's not a hardship. People realize that when you

793
00:43:52,965 --> 00:43:55,285
Speaker 1: work like this, you can be a part of some

794
00:43:55,405 --> 00:44:05,645
Speaker 1: amazing things. After this shortbreak, Katie and I turned the

795
00:44:05,685 --> 00:44:10,325
Speaker 1: pressing issues facing women in Australia and the actctions that

796
00:44:10,445 --> 00:44:11,325
Speaker 1: cannot wait.

797
00:44:13,285 --> 00:44:16,525
Speaker 2: Well as Minister for Women. Now, when you get a

798
00:44:16,565 --> 00:44:21,365
Speaker 2: portfolio like that, is that a good portfolio to get

799
00:44:21,445 --> 00:44:25,245
Speaker 2: and is that a portfolio that you'd want? I loved it.

800
00:44:25,365 --> 00:44:28,245
Speaker 2: I loved getting it because I know there is some

801
00:44:28,405 --> 00:44:31,845
Speaker 2: that are a bit of a shit sand with people

802
00:44:32,085 --> 00:44:34,525
Speaker 2: like I'm very honored to take the portfolio, but I'd

803
00:44:34,645 --> 00:44:35,165
Speaker 2: rather not.

804
00:44:35,525 --> 00:44:38,765
Speaker 1: How great to be Minister for women though in it,

805
00:44:38,885 --> 00:44:43,765
Speaker 1: like for the whole country it traditionally has been a

806
00:44:44,965 --> 00:44:48,085
Speaker 1: job that's maybe been tacked on or a junior port

807
00:44:49,405 --> 00:44:52,845
Speaker 1: or done by men. They were those heady days, yes,

808
00:44:54,645 --> 00:44:57,925
Speaker 1: So the great thing about it was the combination of

809
00:44:58,005 --> 00:45:02,765
Speaker 1: portfolios of finance and women together. So what Anthony the

810
00:45:02,885 --> 00:45:06,005
Speaker 1: Prime Minister did with that appointment was he lifted women

811
00:45:06,085 --> 00:45:10,045
Speaker 1: into the center of government decision making. So nothing gets

812
00:45:10,085 --> 00:45:14,965
Speaker 1: past the Minister for Finance, like it's you know, every

813
00:45:15,005 --> 00:45:18,365
Speaker 1: decision really through government comes through finance someway or another,

814
00:45:18,485 --> 00:45:21,845
Speaker 1: because it's you know, might cost money, might impact the budget,

815
00:45:22,045 --> 00:45:25,645
Speaker 1: might you know, there's pretty much nothing that happens without

816
00:45:25,765 --> 00:45:29,645
Speaker 1: coming through that center department, which I'm responsible for. And

817
00:45:29,685 --> 00:45:32,565
Speaker 1: it lifted women into that space and it put an

818
00:45:32,605 --> 00:45:36,485
Speaker 1: economic focus on gender equality for the first time. So

819
00:45:36,605 --> 00:45:40,725
Speaker 1: with the Treasurer, who he's amazing on all stuff relating

820
00:45:40,765 --> 00:45:45,045
Speaker 1: to gender equality, and myself as the economic team, like

821
00:45:45,205 --> 00:45:49,165
Speaker 1: women and driving gender equality became an economic focus. It

822
00:45:49,205 --> 00:45:53,005
Speaker 1: wasn't a social focus. It wasn't about giving us, you know,

823
00:45:53,165 --> 00:45:55,845
Speaker 1: extra support. It was about, right, how do we drive

824
00:45:55,845 --> 00:46:02,725
Speaker 1: equality through work, through childcare, through health, through.

825
00:46:02,565 --> 00:46:07,525
Speaker 2: Paid parentals exactly, through all of that. So and there

826
00:46:07,565 --> 00:46:12,765
Speaker 2: have been profound changes for women under your watch, and

827
00:46:12,805 --> 00:46:16,485
Speaker 2: as you said before, things that they take a long

828
00:46:16,565 --> 00:46:21,805
Speaker 2: time sometimes to get the wheel moving. But the biggest

829
00:46:22,125 --> 00:46:26,205
Speaker 2: I think issue for a lot of women in Australia

830
00:46:26,205 --> 00:46:29,525
Speaker 2: that's not directly necessarily pertaining to them, but one that

831
00:46:29,565 --> 00:46:33,445
Speaker 2: consumes us is domestic violence. Totally yeah, I agree. And

832
00:46:33,485 --> 00:46:40,365
Speaker 2: the rates of the murders of women by intimate partners,

833
00:46:40,925 --> 00:46:46,445
Speaker 2: it is terrible, It is terrible, terrific.

834
00:46:48,365 --> 00:46:51,325
Speaker 1: Yeah, on any level when you look at the individual

835
00:46:51,405 --> 00:46:55,285
Speaker 1: cases and you get to, you know, see what happens

836
00:46:55,325 --> 00:46:59,845
Speaker 1: to women and children affected by violence. But when you

837
00:46:59,885 --> 00:47:02,725
Speaker 1: look at the numbers, the statistics, even if you have

838
00:47:02,765 --> 00:47:04,565
Speaker 1: a sort of de identified look.

839
00:47:04,405 --> 00:47:08,525
Speaker 2: At it and the thing. So I totally agree.

840
00:47:08,565 --> 00:47:10,805
Speaker 1: And I'm always asked if there's one thing you could

841
00:47:10,885 --> 00:47:13,405
Speaker 1: change for women, what is it? And that is always

842
00:47:13,445 --> 00:47:15,365
Speaker 1: I said, if there, if I had a magic one

843
00:47:15,445 --> 00:47:19,005
Speaker 1: and I could remove violence from women's lives, women and

844
00:47:19,085 --> 00:47:20,165
Speaker 1: children's lives, that is.

845
00:47:20,125 --> 00:47:20,685
Speaker 2: What I would do.

846
00:47:20,925 --> 00:47:26,165
Speaker 1: That would because I think that single thing would then

847
00:47:26,485 --> 00:47:33,685
Speaker 1: have benefits across the board education, skills, jobs, health, you know, savings, assets,

848
00:47:33,885 --> 00:47:38,845
Speaker 1: everything you look at that affects women negatively from violence

849
00:47:38,965 --> 00:47:42,125
Speaker 1: is right across the economy and every aspect of social life,

850
00:47:42,165 --> 00:47:45,445
Speaker 1: and of course permeates into the next generation with the

851
00:47:45,525 --> 00:47:47,645
Speaker 1: children who are affected and witnesses to that.

852
00:47:48,005 --> 00:47:54,085
Speaker 2: Yes, and safety for women is the shadow that always

853
00:47:54,165 --> 00:47:58,245
Speaker 2: is around us anywactly. And if you are fortunate enough

854
00:47:58,725 --> 00:48:02,245
Speaker 2: to be in a home situation where you feel safe,

855
00:48:02,325 --> 00:48:06,885
Speaker 2: your outcomes in life at every level are very different

856
00:48:06,885 --> 00:48:08,365
Speaker 2: than if you aren't afforded that.

857
00:48:09,445 --> 00:48:11,605
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again you look at it, you look at

858
00:48:12,165 --> 00:48:15,445
Speaker 1: you know when people talk about the fastest growing group

859
00:48:15,805 --> 00:48:20,325
Speaker 1: in homelessness older women, And why is that so when

860
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:23,565
Speaker 1: you look down, Well, it's because usually if it hasn't

861
00:48:23,605 --> 00:48:26,845
Speaker 1: been a violent you know, violence ending the relationship, it

862
00:48:26,925 --> 00:48:29,725
Speaker 1: might be divorce. And it's the fact that women don't

863
00:48:29,725 --> 00:48:32,805
Speaker 1: have super they get done over on the assets they

864
00:48:32,845 --> 00:48:37,525
Speaker 1: have saving to children, they haven't earned as much exactly,

865
00:48:37,605 --> 00:48:39,125
Speaker 1: they don't have as much savings.

866
00:48:39,565 --> 00:48:41,925
Speaker 2: And so all of I mean, part of what we're

867
00:48:41,965 --> 00:48:42,525
Speaker 2: trying to do.

868
00:48:43,405 --> 00:48:46,725
Speaker 1: We've got obviously a specific focus on ending violence against

869
00:48:46,765 --> 00:48:49,485
Speaker 1: women and children in a generation, and we've put.

870
00:48:49,725 --> 00:48:51,365
Speaker 2: Four billion dollars into that.

871
00:48:52,045 --> 00:48:55,005
Speaker 1: We four billion dollars into legal services so that they

872
00:48:55,005 --> 00:48:59,845
Speaker 1: can provide support through community legal services, a packageing health.

873
00:49:00,525 --> 00:49:04,485
Speaker 1: Driving the gender pay gap down like everywhere, making childcare

874
00:49:04,525 --> 00:49:10,005
Speaker 1: work better, for women, paying super on parental leave. All

875
00:49:10,045 --> 00:49:13,525
Speaker 1: of these are really about making sure that we are

876
00:49:13,565 --> 00:49:16,845
Speaker 1: giving you know, women are earning more and they're having

877
00:49:16,845 --> 00:49:19,085
Speaker 1: the opportunity to have more savings in the bank, that

878
00:49:19,125 --> 00:49:22,045
Speaker 1: they're not penalized for being a mother, Trying to drive

879
00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:26,405
Speaker 1: more men to take the load of children when they're

880
00:49:26,445 --> 00:49:29,965
Speaker 1: young through shared arrangements for care. All of that is

881
00:49:30,045 --> 00:49:33,845
Speaker 1: about trying ultimately to get women in a better position

882
00:49:34,525 --> 00:49:37,725
Speaker 1: so that violence for those that are affected by violence

883
00:49:38,325 --> 00:49:40,245
Speaker 1: might have a bit more of a lect to stand on,

884
00:49:40,525 --> 00:49:43,605
Speaker 1: you know, for themselves as they're going through that, because

885
00:49:43,685 --> 00:49:49,485
Speaker 1: violence affects everything, of course, but everything is interrelated, yes

886
00:49:49,605 --> 00:49:50,045
Speaker 1: it is.

887
00:49:50,325 --> 00:49:53,645
Speaker 2: And in some I heard you say in an interview

888
00:49:53,765 --> 00:49:59,005
Speaker 2: it's not just up to the government, which I agree

889
00:49:59,285 --> 00:50:06,205
Speaker 2: is the case. It's a societal problem. But you're the

890
00:50:06,245 --> 00:50:11,005
Speaker 2: Minister for Women and you're operating under this promise that

891
00:50:11,165 --> 00:50:13,965
Speaker 2: was publicly made that we will end.

892
00:50:14,325 --> 00:50:17,485
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's end violence against women and children in a generation,

893
00:50:17,605 --> 00:50:21,565
Speaker 1: and it was agreement by stakeholders, so the women's sector

894
00:50:22,485 --> 00:50:25,685
Speaker 1: and governments and state and territory governments have all signed

895
00:50:25,765 --> 00:50:30,045
Speaker 1: up to that, and that's it's hard to explain, but

896
00:50:30,165 --> 00:50:32,805
Speaker 1: that was the agreed terms because we couldn't agree on

897
00:50:32,845 --> 00:50:35,725
Speaker 1: a time. But you can't say I want it to

898
00:50:35,845 --> 00:50:38,805
Speaker 1: end in five years knowing that that's unlikely.

899
00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:42,685
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think is that though you

900
00:50:42,725 --> 00:50:47,445
Speaker 2: are the Minister for Women, that women cannot achieve what

901
00:50:47,525 --> 00:50:51,125
Speaker 2: we need to achieve in the freedom that we should

902
00:50:51,205 --> 00:50:59,005
Speaker 2: have here in Australia without men and without without encouraging

903
00:50:59,085 --> 00:51:02,605
Speaker 2: our men to be and a young men to become

904
00:51:02,765 --> 00:51:06,205
Speaker 2: the sort of older mean that we need them to be. Yeah,

905
00:51:06,285 --> 00:51:09,485
Speaker 2: and then I think there's pornography and which plays soch

906
00:51:09,485 --> 00:51:12,005
Speaker 2: a massive part. I know, where do we.

907
00:51:11,965 --> 00:51:18,285
Speaker 3: Begin, Katie Galla, I'm just I'm just telling you stuff. No,

908
00:51:18,445 --> 00:51:21,445
Speaker 3: and it's all It's all things I think about and

909
00:51:21,485 --> 00:51:26,365
Speaker 3: my colleagues think about as well. And because you know,

910
00:51:26,405 --> 00:51:29,445
Speaker 3: and it is I know about kind of using government

911
00:51:29,525 --> 00:51:32,805
Speaker 3: language and what appropriate terms and things like that, it

912
00:51:33,045 --> 00:51:34,885
Speaker 3: sometimes does make it hard. But when you do talk

913
00:51:34,885 --> 00:51:38,245
Speaker 3: about gender equality, that is about not cutting men out

914
00:51:38,285 --> 00:51:41,485
Speaker 3: of the picture, not demonizing men, not talking to men

915
00:51:41,525 --> 00:51:43,645
Speaker 3: in a way that enrages them. And I have this

916
00:51:43,805 --> 00:51:47,245
Speaker 3: conversation with my partner Dave all the time because he

917
00:51:47,605 --> 00:51:51,405
Speaker 3: it insenses him when he feels like he's been you know,

918
00:51:51,605 --> 00:51:57,045
Speaker 3: all all men are violent or all men are aggressive,

919
00:51:57,245 --> 00:51:59,485
Speaker 3: and it gets him going to And so I've been

920
00:51:59,685 --> 00:52:01,765
Speaker 3: And I've got a son too that I like to

921
00:52:01,885 --> 00:52:04,925
Speaker 3: kind of test things on and and talk to about

922
00:52:04,925 --> 00:52:09,645
Speaker 3: what makes sense to him. And increasingly how I think

923
00:52:09,685 --> 00:52:12,685
Speaker 3: there is an understanding that in order to deal with

924
00:52:12,725 --> 00:52:18,125
Speaker 3: that kind of attitudinal stuff that exists across governments aren't

925
00:52:18,205 --> 00:52:21,725
Speaker 3: very good at dealing with that is we need men

926
00:52:22,765 --> 00:52:25,245
Speaker 3: at the table, you know, to lean in on it,

927
00:52:25,285 --> 00:52:28,405
Speaker 3: but also to provide to be the leaders of the

928
00:52:28,445 --> 00:52:29,445
Speaker 3: men that we want.

929
00:52:29,645 --> 00:52:32,685
Speaker 2: And there are so many, so many good men.

930
00:52:32,805 --> 00:52:36,445
Speaker 1: I just don't know that we've always been thoughtful about

931
00:52:36,445 --> 00:52:37,445
Speaker 1: how to involve them.

932
00:52:37,885 --> 00:52:41,525
Speaker 2: And I don't necessarily see like I know obviously here

933
00:52:41,525 --> 00:52:43,845
Speaker 2: at Mamma Mia and the mission here at Mauma Mia

934
00:52:43,965 --> 00:52:46,045
Speaker 2: is to make the world a better place for women

935
00:52:46,085 --> 00:52:51,285
Speaker 2: and girls. I believe that's also your mission. But there

936
00:52:51,365 --> 00:52:57,645
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be the same momentum from men. There

937
00:52:57,685 --> 00:53:00,925
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be the same I don't know. Maybe

938
00:53:00,925 --> 00:53:05,085
Speaker 2: it's because they feel helpless, or maybe it's because of feminism,

939
00:53:05,205 --> 00:53:08,445
Speaker 2: or I don't know what it is, but there seems

940
00:53:08,485 --> 00:53:12,565
Speaker 2: to be a silence that's not helpful. Yeah, I think

941
00:53:12,645 --> 00:53:13,525
Speaker 2: there is something in that.

942
00:53:14,205 --> 00:53:21,565
Speaker 1: And so how we involve men in discussions about you know,

943
00:53:21,645 --> 00:53:24,645
Speaker 1: building the world that we want and building the society

944
00:53:24,725 --> 00:53:26,645
Speaker 1: we want, and you know, even in terms of probably

945
00:53:26,685 --> 00:53:29,725
Speaker 1: gender equality, because that actually means that men and women

946
00:53:29,765 --> 00:53:32,485
Speaker 1: are treated equally, girls and boys are treated equally. It's

947
00:53:32,485 --> 00:53:36,165
Speaker 1: not about women getting something better, not the same, but

948
00:53:36,245 --> 00:53:39,565
Speaker 1: equally equally and have equal opportunities, so that a girl

949
00:53:39,685 --> 00:53:43,645
Speaker 1: leaving primary school tomorrow thinks all those jobs are available

950
00:53:43,645 --> 00:53:45,445
Speaker 1: to her, not just some of the jobs, and the

951
00:53:45,485 --> 00:53:48,685
Speaker 1: same for the for the young boy or the young man.

952
00:53:49,005 --> 00:53:51,005
Speaker 1: And we have to make sure that we are bringing

953
00:53:51,485 --> 00:53:54,365
Speaker 1: that thinking along with us as we you know, we

954
00:53:54,405 --> 00:53:56,525
Speaker 1: have a minis for women. We're driving a lot of

955
00:53:56,685 --> 00:54:00,125
Speaker 1: improvements for women that we are at the same time

956
00:54:00,205 --> 00:54:03,525
Speaker 1: conscious that this isn't about being better or getting more

957
00:54:03,725 --> 00:54:06,405
Speaker 1: for women. It's about trying to make sure the balance

958
00:54:06,485 --> 00:54:11,405
Speaker 1: is right. And like my colleague Dan Rapercoli, who he's

959
00:54:11,525 --> 00:54:16,485
Speaker 1: the Special Envoy for Men's Health, so he's been given

960
00:54:16,485 --> 00:54:19,725
Speaker 1: that job by the PM to sort of start moving

961
00:54:19,765 --> 00:54:22,925
Speaker 1: into I think some of that silence, like men's health

962
00:54:23,005 --> 00:54:23,925
Speaker 1: is an obvious area.

963
00:54:24,165 --> 00:54:24,445
Speaker 3: Women.

964
00:54:24,725 --> 00:54:27,725
Speaker 1: We're very good at talking about our health. The health

965
00:54:27,725 --> 00:54:30,165
Speaker 1: system needs to We're very good at talking. We are

966
00:54:30,245 --> 00:54:33,485
Speaker 1: good at We're great at talking. And so I think

967
00:54:33,565 --> 00:54:37,525
Speaker 1: more and more you'll see, Yeah, you'll see changes like

968
00:54:37,565 --> 00:54:39,805
Speaker 1: that which try to bring men to the table in

969
00:54:39,885 --> 00:54:41,885
Speaker 1: a lot more of these discussions, because you're right, we

970
00:54:41,925 --> 00:54:44,165
Speaker 1: can't do it on our own. We shouldn't do it

971
00:54:44,165 --> 00:54:47,125
Speaker 1: on our own. That's not the world we want to create.

972
00:54:47,445 --> 00:54:51,485
Speaker 2: You know that in the context of bringing men into

973
00:54:51,565 --> 00:54:54,845
Speaker 2: our world, there does seem to be kind of a

974
00:54:54,925 --> 00:55:00,165
Speaker 2: divide between stuff that's labeled as women's business by men.

975
00:55:01,685 --> 00:55:04,205
Speaker 2: No more clearly, I think, is there an example of

976
00:55:04,205 --> 00:55:07,245
Speaker 2: that than on, for instance, International Women's Day, when there

977
00:55:07,285 --> 00:55:12,005
Speaker 2: are breakfasts and functions and there amazing and they're uplifting,

978
00:55:12,085 --> 00:55:15,685
Speaker 2: but they're all tables of teen of women and the

979
00:55:15,765 --> 00:55:21,245
Speaker 2: men are absent from those, Or literature that's seemed to

980
00:55:21,245 --> 00:55:25,885
Speaker 2: be women's literature, or TV shows or you know, how

981
00:55:25,925 --> 00:55:31,165
Speaker 2: do we bring men in to our world?

982
00:55:31,405 --> 00:55:33,445
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I have the perfect answer for that,

983
00:55:33,685 --> 00:55:37,245
Speaker 1: or a good answer. I think this is an area

984
00:55:37,285 --> 00:55:41,085
Speaker 1: where there's more work to do, you know, and I

985
00:55:41,125 --> 00:55:45,925
Speaker 1: am a big believer in not making the equality discussion

986
00:55:46,245 --> 00:55:49,605
Speaker 1: a woman's issue or a women's issue that women have

987
00:55:49,685 --> 00:55:50,165
Speaker 1: to solve.

988
00:55:50,285 --> 00:55:51,325
Speaker 2: Not only are we.

989
00:55:51,485 --> 00:55:54,005
Speaker 1: Often the victims of the or not victims, or that

990
00:55:54,365 --> 00:55:57,445
Speaker 1: we suffer from the inequality, or we experience the inequality.

991
00:55:57,485 --> 00:55:59,245
Speaker 1: It's then up to us to work out how to

992
00:55:59,325 --> 00:55:59,765
Speaker 1: solve it.

993
00:56:00,645 --> 00:56:03,445
Speaker 2: And even this conversation will enrage some women because I

994
00:56:03,525 --> 00:56:06,685
Speaker 2: know they're like, but we shouldn't have to do it. Yeah,

995
00:56:06,845 --> 00:56:09,205
Speaker 2: but at some point, you either want what you want

996
00:56:09,725 --> 00:56:13,165
Speaker 2: or you want to be right. I think so. I

997
00:56:13,165 --> 00:56:16,965
Speaker 2: think so. But with men, I think we have to work.

998
00:56:16,805 --> 00:56:19,565
Speaker 1: Out a better way of involving them in all of

999
00:56:19,605 --> 00:56:22,245
Speaker 1: the discussions about the world that we want to build,

1000
00:56:22,365 --> 00:56:27,765
Speaker 1: not not on a women versus men spectrum. It doesn't

1001
00:56:27,845 --> 00:56:31,205
Speaker 1: have to be women gain at the expense of men.

1002
00:56:31,605 --> 00:56:34,565
Speaker 1: This is all about getting a fair treatment for everybody

1003
00:56:34,605 --> 00:56:37,605
Speaker 1: and creating a community in a society where that is

1004
00:56:38,085 --> 00:56:41,565
Speaker 1: a realistic possibility. And at the moment, on any of

1005
00:56:41,605 --> 00:56:44,965
Speaker 1: those measures we've talked about, that's not the case. And

1006
00:56:45,565 --> 00:56:48,325
Speaker 1: I think part of our job, maybe it's not the

1007
00:56:48,365 --> 00:56:50,325
Speaker 1: women's job, but we have to work out ways that

1008
00:56:50,365 --> 00:56:54,525
Speaker 1: men don't feel threatened to be a part of that discussion, and.

1009
00:56:54,485 --> 00:56:56,445
Speaker 2: I think at the moment we haven't quite got that

1010
00:56:56,845 --> 00:56:59,165
Speaker 2: now to be And as we know, men are great

1011
00:56:59,165 --> 00:57:00,805
Speaker 2: at solutions.

1012
00:57:02,005 --> 00:57:03,765
Speaker 1: So maybe it's up to us to work out how

1013
00:57:03,805 --> 00:57:04,685
Speaker 1: to get them involved.

1014
00:57:04,765 --> 00:57:06,325
Speaker 2: Maybe we need a Minister for men.

1015
00:57:06,965 --> 00:57:09,405
Speaker 1: Well, like I said, where the Minister for Men or

1016
00:57:09,405 --> 00:57:11,845
Speaker 1: the Special Envoy for Men's Health is the first kind

1017
00:57:11,885 --> 00:57:14,245
Speaker 1: of foray into that and structurally.

1018
00:57:14,125 --> 00:57:21,165
Speaker 2: You guys get it together in a in a policy. Yes, absolutely, yeah.

1019
00:57:21,205 --> 00:57:25,445
Speaker 1: Well and again you know, if if Dan can deal

1020
00:57:25,485 --> 00:57:28,285
Speaker 1: with some of the issues about around men's health, that

1021
00:57:28,285 --> 00:57:31,565
Speaker 1: that would make a big improvement in men's lives. Also

1022
00:57:31,725 --> 00:57:35,365
Speaker 1: would have flow on effects for women who are you know,

1023
00:57:35,445 --> 00:57:37,765
Speaker 1: their wives and their mums and they're all the rest

1024
00:57:37,845 --> 00:57:40,925
Speaker 1: of it. I mean, it's it's it's important that we

1025
00:57:41,045 --> 00:57:43,685
Speaker 1: have a whole of community focus on equality and that

1026
00:57:43,765 --> 00:57:45,765
Speaker 1: involves men being part of that discussion.

1027
00:57:46,045 --> 00:57:53,125
Speaker 2: Absolutely. What do you want to have happened at the

1028
00:57:53,205 --> 00:57:54,685
Speaker 2: end of this political term?

1029
00:57:55,325 --> 00:58:00,365
Speaker 1: God, so many things, so many in the women's portfolio.

1030
00:58:00,525 --> 00:58:05,765
Speaker 2: Do you think for you? Well, like, what's a what's

1031
00:58:05,765 --> 00:58:09,805
Speaker 2: a measure success for you? Yes? What is yours? I

1032
00:58:10,045 --> 00:58:12,605
Speaker 2: think it would happen in mind? This will haunt you? Yeah,

1033
00:58:12,645 --> 00:58:15,245
Speaker 2: I know it will. I can see your cogs.

1034
00:58:15,565 --> 00:58:18,925
Speaker 1: I'm trying well because I think about this a lot,

1035
00:58:19,365 --> 00:58:22,525
Speaker 1: and partly it's hard to measure, like I would like

1036
00:58:22,645 --> 00:58:28,405
Speaker 1: to see a big change in domestic and family violence,

1037
00:58:28,485 --> 00:58:31,325
Speaker 1: like a reduction in it, because I think that would

1038
00:58:31,325 --> 00:58:34,765
Speaker 1: make all these other areas where women are behind a

1039
00:58:34,805 --> 00:58:37,205
Speaker 1: lot easier to solve if we didn't, if we weren't

1040
00:58:37,245 --> 00:58:40,845
Speaker 1: constantly pouring money an effort into trying to deal with

1041
00:58:40,885 --> 00:58:43,165
Speaker 1: the crisis and of domestic and family.

1042
00:58:43,165 --> 00:58:47,045
Speaker 2: To rebuild, and it's been shattered.

1043
00:58:47,085 --> 00:58:50,125
Speaker 1: And through the hospitals, through the courts, through the schools,

1044
00:58:50,165 --> 00:58:55,605
Speaker 1: through counseling, through services, through everything where so much money

1045
00:58:55,685 --> 00:58:58,685
Speaker 1: is poured into dealing with the crisis of this. But

1046
00:58:58,805 --> 00:59:00,965
Speaker 1: having said that, saying I'd like to see a reduction,

1047
00:59:01,125 --> 00:59:03,125
Speaker 1: I know that part of what we're going through at

1048
00:59:03,125 --> 00:59:07,045
Speaker 1: the moment is that we're seeing those numbers look worse

1049
00:59:07,285 --> 00:59:10,965
Speaker 1: or in some indicators, materially worse. And part of that

1050
00:59:11,125 --> 00:59:14,565
Speaker 1: is people reporting more and pursuing more through the courts,

1051
00:59:14,605 --> 00:59:17,005
Speaker 1: and that that is good. So it's not what I'm

1052
00:59:17,005 --> 00:59:19,805
Speaker 1: saying to is I'd like to see that change. But

1053
00:59:19,925 --> 00:59:24,405
Speaker 1: I'm also been around long enough to know that in

1054
00:59:24,445 --> 00:59:27,685
Speaker 1: the short term, affecting that change means some of those

1055
00:59:27,765 --> 00:59:28,885
Speaker 1: numbers might look worse.

1056
00:59:29,725 --> 00:59:37,605
Speaker 2: Your daughter EV is neurodivergent. She certainly in a number

1057
00:59:37,605 --> 00:59:38,525
Speaker 2: of diagnoses.

1058
00:59:38,765 --> 00:59:42,405
Speaker 1: Yes, she's a lot. EV love, I love that kid,

1059
00:59:42,445 --> 00:59:43,525
Speaker 1: But she's a lot.

1060
00:59:44,005 --> 00:59:46,685
Speaker 2: How do you have a kid who's a lot when

1061
00:59:46,725 --> 00:59:48,325
Speaker 2: you have a lot on your plate?

1062
00:59:49,805 --> 00:59:50,365
Speaker 3: Ah?

1063
00:59:50,405 --> 00:59:52,525
Speaker 1: Well, I imagine you've got When you said you have

1064
00:59:52,525 --> 00:59:54,685
Speaker 1: four children, I kind of took a sharp intake of

1065
00:59:54,685 --> 00:59:57,125
Speaker 1: breath because I said, oh my god, how could I like,

1066
00:59:57,165 --> 01:00:00,925
Speaker 1: I've got three? Four sounds terrifying. You Just deal with it,

1067
01:00:01,285 --> 01:00:05,965
Speaker 1: you know, it is she's I mean, labels help explain EV.

1068
01:00:07,245 --> 01:00:08,765
Speaker 2: But EV is just my daughter.

1069
01:00:09,005 --> 01:00:14,005
Speaker 1: And so the family absorbs and you know, copes with

1070
01:00:14,085 --> 01:00:17,885
Speaker 1: all the different personalities in it. EV's required a bit

1071
01:00:17,925 --> 01:00:22,965
Speaker 1: more hands on and kind of contact than the other two.

1072
01:00:23,365 --> 01:00:30,885
Speaker 1: But she's been a wonderful you know, her autism, her ADHD, dyslexia,

1073
01:00:31,085 --> 01:00:33,765
Speaker 1: all the other things that are going on have also

1074
01:00:34,085 --> 01:00:37,885
Speaker 1: enriched our family a lot. And you know, I feel

1075
01:00:37,965 --> 01:00:41,485
Speaker 1: very fortunate for having a kid like EV who's exposed

1076
01:00:41,525 --> 01:00:44,685
Speaker 1: me to that and made me parent different and think

1077
01:00:44,765 --> 01:00:49,565
Speaker 1: differently and be at times more accommodating she's driven me mad.

1078
01:00:49,765 --> 01:00:54,085
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh yeah, pull my hair out, all that

1079
01:00:54,125 --> 01:01:00,205
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, but just hugely again, just taught me

1080
01:01:00,285 --> 01:01:04,365
Speaker 1: to be a lot more empathetic and understanding and about people.

1081
01:01:04,405 --> 01:01:06,325
Speaker 1: You learn a lot about people in my job, and

1082
01:01:06,325 --> 01:01:10,365
Speaker 1: Evi's taught me a lot about autism and how brains

1083
01:01:10,405 --> 01:01:11,165
Speaker 1: work differently.

1084
01:01:12,685 --> 01:01:15,685
Speaker 2: What do you love about Australia?

1085
01:01:17,165 --> 01:01:19,965
Speaker 1: I love I was thinking about this the other day

1086
01:01:20,005 --> 01:01:22,925
Speaker 1: because I was cleaning the tomb of the Unnamed Soldier

1087
01:01:22,965 --> 01:01:29,765
Speaker 1: in the War Memorial and before it opens, MPs and

1088
01:01:29,805 --> 01:01:31,925
Speaker 1: senators can go and clean it and just spend some time.

1089
01:01:32,005 --> 01:01:35,765
Speaker 1: And I was thinking things like a ceremonial, no, just

1090
01:01:35,845 --> 01:01:39,725
Speaker 1: on your own, you're just in the oh yeah, in

1091
01:01:39,765 --> 01:01:43,325
Speaker 1: that part of the War Memorial. And do you know,

1092
01:01:43,405 --> 01:01:45,645
Speaker 1: I was thinking, in any other country, you'd probably have

1093
01:01:46,005 --> 01:01:49,085
Speaker 1: some pomp and ceremony about around this, like there'd be

1094
01:01:49,525 --> 01:01:51,205
Speaker 1: you know, military standing.

1095
01:01:50,805 --> 01:01:52,965
Speaker 2: On guard and bugles and things.

1096
01:01:53,725 --> 01:01:57,045
Speaker 1: I love the fact that we're all we come from

1097
01:01:57,045 --> 01:02:02,405
Speaker 1: a very egalitarian you know, no fast, no friels, kind

1098
01:02:02,405 --> 01:02:04,845
Speaker 1: of care for each other, look after each other. And

1099
01:02:05,005 --> 01:02:08,165
Speaker 1: I think we saw that a bit in the election campaign,

1100
01:02:08,165 --> 01:02:11,485
Speaker 1: which really validated I know, the Australian spirit to me,

1101
01:02:11,605 --> 01:02:16,525
Speaker 1: which was, we don't really want to be divided and angry.

1102
01:02:16,765 --> 01:02:20,005
Speaker 1: We wanted we want to work on a society that's

1103
01:02:20,005 --> 01:02:24,085
Speaker 1: about bringing people together and being optimistic. Which is why

1104
01:02:25,525 --> 01:02:28,845
Speaker 1: I think I'm such a you know, Oh, I think

1105
01:02:28,885 --> 01:02:33,085
Speaker 1: civics and citizenship and understanding politics and democracy is so

1106
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:36,765
Speaker 1: important because we are very lucky here. We have peaceful

1107
01:02:36,805 --> 01:02:41,485
Speaker 1: transfer or power. We have peaceful elections. You can't imagine

1108
01:02:41,565 --> 01:02:44,205
Speaker 1: a world where you have to walk past guns to

1109
01:02:44,245 --> 01:02:47,005
Speaker 1: go and and you know, have a vote, or that

1110
01:02:47,045 --> 01:02:47,845
Speaker 1: you're killed.

1111
01:02:47,925 --> 01:02:49,125
Speaker 2: And are you coming in today?

1112
01:02:49,885 --> 01:02:52,165
Speaker 1: Yeah, just being able to come in exactly. We've got

1113
01:02:52,165 --> 01:02:56,205
Speaker 1: such freedom around it. But it's not something we should

1114
01:02:56,205 --> 01:02:58,285
Speaker 1: take for granted because it can be taken away, and

1115
01:02:58,325 --> 01:03:01,965
Speaker 1: it can be taken it's fragile. Democracy is fragile, and

1116
01:03:03,125 --> 01:03:05,565
Speaker 1: you know, so we should be protective of it because

1117
01:03:05,765 --> 01:03:11,005
Speaker 1: ultimately the best thing about democracy is that people make

1118
01:03:11,085 --> 01:03:13,245
Speaker 1: the rules and make the decisions for the people. And

1119
01:03:13,285 --> 01:03:15,645
Speaker 1: if the people don't like you, they beat you out

1120
01:03:15,685 --> 01:03:20,165
Speaker 1: and they bring in someone they do like, and again

1121
01:03:20,285 --> 01:03:22,845
Speaker 1: people might get annoyed. I've got to go down and vote.

1122
01:03:22,885 --> 01:03:24,525
Speaker 1: I do my fair share of handing out on the

1123
01:03:24,565 --> 01:03:27,085
Speaker 1: polling stations and everyone's like, oh god, I had to

1124
01:03:27,085 --> 01:03:31,165
Speaker 1: come down and vote today. But honestly, I think it's

1125
01:03:31,205 --> 01:03:35,645
Speaker 1: a very it's a system we should protect and invest in.

1126
01:03:35,965 --> 01:03:43,325
Speaker 2: Your I guess groundedness or your every womanness resonates with people.

1127
01:03:43,365 --> 01:03:46,445
Speaker 2: But some people also say I mean, I think we

1128
01:03:46,485 --> 01:03:48,525
Speaker 2: always want people to be better than us and more

1129
01:03:48,565 --> 01:03:50,725
Speaker 2: elusive if we want to put them on a Peter stall.

1130
01:03:52,565 --> 01:03:58,765
Speaker 2: Do you think that politics might work better for people

1131
01:03:59,925 --> 01:04:02,565
Speaker 2: like yourself who were not led to it because of

1132
01:04:02,605 --> 01:04:08,165
Speaker 2: a desire for power or some kind of you know,

1133
01:04:08,645 --> 01:04:09,805
Speaker 2: modern I don't, literally.

1134
01:04:11,925 --> 01:04:15,125
Speaker 1: I think politics needs a lot of different things, Like

1135
01:04:15,205 --> 01:04:17,885
Speaker 1: you need a lot of different people in politics to

1136
01:04:17,965 --> 01:04:20,965
Speaker 1: make it work. And some of it is some of

1137
01:04:21,005 --> 01:04:23,685
Speaker 1: that is my style of politics, which is, you know,

1138
01:04:24,765 --> 01:04:27,445
Speaker 1: you know, I hope to be like very accessible, very

1139
01:04:27,485 --> 01:04:30,085
Speaker 1: down to earth, you know, you see, what you see

1140
01:04:30,125 --> 01:04:33,405
Speaker 1: is what you get. I'll be pretty direct with people.

1141
01:04:33,685 --> 01:04:36,845
Speaker 1: But I also am pretty connected. I've got a background

1142
01:04:36,845 --> 01:04:40,725
Speaker 1: in community work, so I think I think there's definitely

1143
01:04:40,725 --> 01:04:43,565
Speaker 1: a role for me that type of person.

1144
01:04:43,565 --> 01:04:44,405
Speaker 2: I would say that.

1145
01:04:44,525 --> 01:04:47,565
Speaker 1: Because I'm in there better, But I do think there's

1146
01:04:47,725 --> 01:04:51,125
Speaker 1: definitely a role. But I think politics works best where

1147
01:04:51,685 --> 01:04:54,365
Speaker 1: there's a whole melting pot in a sense of different

1148
01:04:54,405 --> 01:05:00,765
Speaker 1: personality types and different backgrounds and different cultural backgrounds, different

1149
01:05:00,765 --> 01:05:04,725
Speaker 1: geographic backgrounds, all of that. When you get that right,

1150
01:05:05,445 --> 01:05:08,805
Speaker 1: then you truly represent Australia. And I think at the

1151
01:05:08,845 --> 01:05:11,525
Speaker 1: heart of political system, that's what it's about. So it's

1152
01:05:11,565 --> 01:05:14,645
Speaker 1: not about what it used to be, which was older

1153
01:05:14,685 --> 01:05:17,845
Speaker 1: men at the towards the end of their careers. You

1154
01:05:17,885 --> 01:05:20,525
Speaker 1: look at the Parliament now, it's very different to that.

1155
01:05:20,805 --> 01:05:24,245
Speaker 1: It's gender balanced for the first time and a lot

1156
01:05:24,285 --> 01:05:28,885
Speaker 1: of different cultural people with different cultural backgrounds are represented.

1157
01:05:29,485 --> 01:05:34,805
Speaker 2: How do you handle it because a lot of it

1158
01:05:33,845 --> 01:05:37,645
Speaker 2: is it is a power play, and politics itself is

1159
01:05:37,645 --> 01:05:41,085
Speaker 2: about who's in power and who isn't. When you're challenged

1160
01:05:41,125 --> 01:05:46,205
Speaker 2: on something, at what point do you go, this is

1161
01:05:46,285 --> 01:05:53,165
Speaker 2: my ego reacting rather than this is actually what maybe

1162
01:05:53,165 --> 01:05:53,965
Speaker 2: I need to hear.

1163
01:05:55,205 --> 01:05:58,765
Speaker 1: Yes, So I think that's a great question which I've

1164
01:05:59,325 --> 01:06:01,805
Speaker 1: kind of been thinking. I have been thinking about because

1165
01:06:01,805 --> 01:06:05,005
Speaker 1: someone asked me about it. How do you wield influence

1166
01:06:05,045 --> 01:06:06,445
Speaker 1: and how do you wield power?

1167
01:06:07,285 --> 01:06:09,125
Speaker 2: And is that important in politics?

1168
01:06:09,885 --> 01:06:12,845
Speaker 1: And I think where I've got to is in the

1169
01:06:12,885 --> 01:06:16,285
Speaker 1: position that I'm in, it is important to have a

1170
01:06:16,405 --> 01:06:20,205
Speaker 1: number of things. One is to wield influence is important.

1171
01:06:20,525 --> 01:06:24,805
Speaker 1: To have respect of your colleagues is important, and to

1172
01:06:26,645 --> 01:06:30,525
Speaker 1: use the power you have carefully and wisely, knowing that

1173
01:06:31,045 --> 01:06:34,845
Speaker 1: you know, like you say, to sort of take a

1174
01:06:34,885 --> 01:06:37,245
Speaker 1: step back, not let your ego run things like there

1175
01:06:37,285 --> 01:06:39,925
Speaker 1: are times any in any workplace when you kind of

1176
01:06:40,405 --> 01:06:43,365
Speaker 1: I think you have to stop and check and think

1177
01:06:43,365 --> 01:06:47,805
Speaker 1: about things the way I yeah, I'm an I'm I

1178
01:06:47,845 --> 01:06:51,765
Speaker 1: will be confrontational if I need to be, but I

1179
01:06:51,805 --> 01:06:54,085
Speaker 1: prefer not to be. I prefer to think about how

1180
01:06:54,125 --> 01:06:57,685
Speaker 1: I land decisions or get what I want in a

1181
01:06:57,725 --> 01:07:00,685
Speaker 1: careful way and similar smart way.

1182
01:07:00,965 --> 01:07:04,525
Speaker 2: If you're engaging with colleagues or political opponents that are

1183
01:07:04,565 --> 01:07:10,125
Speaker 2: very combative, how do you respond to that pretty calmly?

1184
01:07:10,205 --> 01:07:12,325
Speaker 1: I think it takes a lot to get me to

1185
01:07:12,885 --> 01:07:15,925
Speaker 1: elevate my heart rate to you know, and I think

1186
01:07:15,965 --> 01:07:18,965
Speaker 1: maybe I've lent that over time, and it's a bit

1187
01:07:19,245 --> 01:07:22,845
Speaker 1: symbolic more characteristic of who I am, I think, which

1188
01:07:22,885 --> 01:07:25,965
Speaker 1: is when things get difficult and hard, I do go

1189
01:07:26,085 --> 01:07:28,965
Speaker 1: into myself and it's like a coping mechanism, I think.

1190
01:07:29,045 --> 01:07:32,565
Speaker 1: So it takes a lot to get me to lose

1191
01:07:32,605 --> 01:07:35,805
Speaker 1: it or respond in a similar way. And in a

1192
01:07:35,885 --> 01:07:39,085
Speaker 1: sense it's pretty effective because if someone's having a crack

1193
01:07:39,165 --> 01:07:42,485
Speaker 1: at you and you're remaining calm, that often infuriates them.

1194
01:07:44,485 --> 01:07:50,285
Speaker 2: I think that's called passive aggressive. Well, Katie Gallaher, thank you,

1195
01:07:50,525 --> 01:07:54,805
Speaker 2: thank you for your service. Oh, thank you, thanks for

1196
01:07:54,845 --> 01:08:00,965
Speaker 2: having me on. So normally I'd rather be shot out

1197
01:08:01,005 --> 01:08:05,485
Speaker 2: of a cannon than talk to a politician, but Kati

1198
01:08:05,565 --> 01:08:09,285
Speaker 2: Galaher is slightly unusual. She's the woman who's not only

1199
01:08:09,405 --> 01:08:11,925
Speaker 2: front and center in some of the toughest jobs in government,

1200
01:08:12,405 --> 01:08:16,165
Speaker 2: but also a woman who's lived a life full of challenge, loss,

1201
01:08:16,605 --> 01:08:21,365
Speaker 2: and resilience. It's very rare that politicians allow you to

1202
01:08:21,565 --> 01:08:26,445
Speaker 2: glimpse the person behind the office, the human being who's

1203
01:08:26,525 --> 01:08:31,805
Speaker 2: navigating grief, parenthood, and leadership all at once. Katie reminds

1204
01:08:31,925 --> 01:08:35,045
Speaker 2: us that there's always more to a person than the headlines,

1205
01:08:35,645 --> 01:08:40,405
Speaker 2: and that strength often comes quietly from choices made in

1206
01:08:40,485 --> 01:08:44,125
Speaker 2: everyday moments. Thank you so much for joining us on

1207
01:08:44,165 --> 01:08:47,765
Speaker 2: No Filter. If you love this conversation, make sure to

1208
01:08:47,805 --> 01:08:50,965
Speaker 2: subscribe so you don't miss the next one. The executive

1209
01:08:51,005 --> 01:08:54,165
Speaker 2: producer of No Filter is Naima Brown. The senior producer

1210
01:08:54,205 --> 01:08:57,805
Speaker 2: is bre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown, video

1211
01:08:58,005 --> 01:09:01,565
Speaker 2: editing is by Josh Green And I'm your host, Kate

1212
01:09:01,645 --> 01:09:03,925
Speaker 2: lane Brook. Thank you for listening.