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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, December the first.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Amelia Leuster and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And here's what's made our agenda for today. Oprah Wimfrey

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Speaker 2: is getting all kinds of attention for her big special

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Speaker 2: about going no contact with your family, But isn't it

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Speaker 2: all kind of Oprah's fault?

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Speaker 1: And the Prime Minister got married on the weekend. We

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Speaker 1: have some not so scoulous gossip from the event, and

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Speaker 1: I also want to tell you why his wedding passes

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Speaker 1: the pub test.

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Speaker 4: And the Creator of the Year at the TikTok Awards

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Speaker 4: is a beloved father of four who shares his kids

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Speaker 4: regularly online. Are we harder on women who feature their

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Speaker 4: kids in content or is it just the type of

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Speaker 4: content these creators are making?

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, and probably did

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Speaker 1: because there were only eighty guests, the Prime Minister got

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Speaker 1: married on the weekend. Anthony Alberanizi married Jody Hayden at

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Speaker 1: the Lodge in Canberra. The wedding took place in the

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Speaker 1: afternoon at about four twenty pm on Saturday afternoon. This

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Speaker 1: song signed Sealed, delivered by Stevie Wonder was heard wafting

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Speaker 1: from the lodge as they walked back down the aisle

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Speaker 1: together after exchanging their vows. Now, I think this is

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Speaker 1: lovely me too.

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Speaker 2: My mom asked me if I was invited, and I was, Mother,

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Speaker 2: you vastly overestimate my importance and influence on going.

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Speaker 1: A lot of front benches, a lot of labor front

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Speaker 1: fenches weren't even invited. It was very select Apparently they

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Speaker 1: had originally decided they were going to invite about three

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Speaker 1: hundred people, but then they whistled it down to about eighty,

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Speaker 1: and so it meant that a lot of big labor

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Speaker 1: figures were not there. Tanya Plibasec, for instance, not invited.

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Speaker 4: I was very interested in that because you know what,

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Speaker 4: the three hundred mark they just went invite.

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Speaker 3: All of them. Weddings are political.

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Speaker 1: All of them.

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Speaker 3: Weddings are political at.

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Speaker 4: The best of times. When you are the PM, they

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Speaker 4: are especially political. And eight years of smallish wedding.

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Speaker 1: It is hard and I think that the who do

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Speaker 1: you invite from your workplace is always an incredibly contentious question,

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Speaker 1: and as you say, it's extra hard when the people

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with are literally politicians. So let me just

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Speaker 1: run through who was there? Who wasn't there? On the

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Speaker 1: label left contingent. You had Katie Gallagher, you had Penny Wong,

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Speaker 1: you had Jin Chalmers, you had Richard Miles, but not invited,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, Tanya Pubisek wasn't there. A lot of

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Speaker 1: other cabinet ministers were not there. One nice little invite

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Speaker 1: that I saw was that some of Albo's friends from

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Speaker 1: growing up in social housing made the cut.

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Speaker 4: Well, I always think about weddings in terms of almost rings, right,

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Speaker 4: So you go, okay, I've got my close friends, I've

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Speaker 4: got these and then you kind of get to a

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Speaker 4: point and you go, you're too far outside the circle.

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Speaker 3: This doesn't work.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes it's easier to exclude a whole faction of

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Speaker 4: people rather than pick and shoose action being the word yep,

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Speaker 4: faction being the wed in sitting down and doing his

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Speaker 4: They clearly went our line is state premieres.

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Speaker 3: None, only one of them, and I'm sure he's got.

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Speaker 4: Some mates there, but he went. You can't invite New

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Speaker 4: South Wales and not invite Queensland.

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Speaker 5: You can't.

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Speaker 2: I love that they kept it small because it makes

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Speaker 2: it seem very real. Can you imagine if this was

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Speaker 2: like a Trump era American political wedding, we'd have like

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Speaker 2: a gold plated dance floor and carriages aronomy, and the

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Speaker 2: King would have been invited, and then there would have

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Speaker 2: been a kerfuffle about whether or not he was going

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Speaker 2: to come. I think he hit the tone right, Do

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Speaker 2: we agree? Do we think he got because imagine the

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Speaker 2: drama we're going to talk about that, But imagine the

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Speaker 2: pressure on getting it right when you're marrying the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister and.

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Speaker 4: Waking up, rolling over on the morning of your wedding

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Speaker 4: day and checking the news and going, please, please, please

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Speaker 4: please don't make a war have broken out, like, just

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Speaker 4: make it a quiet news day so that my wedding

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Speaker 4: doesn't look tone deaf, Amelia, Did I miss it?

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Speaker 3: Did we know this was coming?

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Speaker 1: No one knew what was coming. It was really kept

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Speaker 1: under wraps. Apparently the Prime Minister was being interviewed last

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Speaker 1: week by Behind the News, remember btn that kid's news show,

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Speaker 1: and the kids were asking him all sorts of questions,

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Speaker 1: and then the principal asked him if he was going

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Speaker 1: to get married anytime soon, and there was something in

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Speaker 1: the response that did make them apparently wonder. But it

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Speaker 1: was very secret, and in part this was because there

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Speaker 1: were evidently some security concerns around it, and it's partly

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Speaker 1: been speculated that's why it wasn't at Kurabilly House, which

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Speaker 1: of course has the water views. No offense camera, but

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Speaker 1: it does have the water views, and that's because the

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Speaker 1: lodge has very high walls, so they figured it would

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Speaker 1: be easier to control and monitor for security reason.

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Speaker 2: Apparently, when people did start getting the wind of it

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Speaker 2: after that principle, the Catholic school principle made everybody's antenne

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Speaker 2: I go up, as Amelia said. The Herald reports that

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Speaker 2: news editors across the nation were warned off running any

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Speaker 2: preview stories under security fears, and the ones who pushed

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Speaker 2: back received a follow up phone call from security agencies

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Speaker 2: saying don't you dare, And it seems that they listened.

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Speaker 4: It probably deserves the wedding without protests outside.

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Speaker 1: It also had no phones, which is very modern of them.

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Speaker 1: There was no social media hashtag that they asked you

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Speaker 1: to use on Instagram or anything. They did say, you

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Speaker 1: have to leave your phones at the door.

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Speaker 4: So the dress would have been like there was going

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Speaker 4: to be a spotlight on the dress, right because she

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Speaker 4: could have like they.

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Speaker 2: Probably could have afforded.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what are the fancy brands versaci, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't do you remember Jesse when Zoe Foster Blake wore

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Speaker 2: Gucci to the Logis once and the world went mad.

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Speaker 2: Australia went mad and went what there are no Australian

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Speaker 2: design is good enough for you? Now you're so fancy, Like,

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Speaker 2: imagine if Zoe Foster Blake can't wear Gucci to the logis.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if the Prime Minister's wife had chosen an international

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Speaker 2: brand to get marrieded so she is the level of

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Speaker 2: things she would have had to show.

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Speaker 4: She had to wear Australian. But at the same time,

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Speaker 4: Australian designers are rightfully pricey because it's made here and

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Speaker 4: materials and dah da da. So she had shoot an

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Speaker 4: Australian designer who wasn't expensive and wasn't flaunting wealth and saying.

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Speaker 2: I studded with diamonds or like it was. It was

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Speaker 2: Romance was born, which is a very cool, beautiful, very

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Speaker 2: very bit energy right, very edgy, very cool. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of an The thing I love about them is that

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Speaker 2: Albow is such a gen xer. He's an old gen xer.

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Speaker 2: He's sixty two, but like he still likes to hold

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Speaker 2: onto his like I'm from the Inner West and I

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Speaker 2: go to the pub and they had beers with their

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Speaker 2: faces on them.

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Speaker 1: Well, their first day was a brewery, so that was

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a throwback.

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Speaker 2: And he DJs as we know. So it's like romance

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Speaker 2: was born. Is like, it's cool, but it's not twenty

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Speaker 2: five year old influencer cool, right. I think they nailed that.

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Speaker 4: I was also interested in the guess list because my

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Speaker 4: first question was was Kyle Sandalance it? And the reason

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Speaker 4: I needed to know was because Albo was famously invited

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Speaker 4: to Kyle's wedding. He went with Chris Min and I thought,

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Speaker 4: it's always awkward when you've been invited to that wedding,

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Speaker 4: which was very trumpy, and in some ways.

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Speaker 2: That was that was wedding the Albow could have had

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Speaker 2: if he was a different human.

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Speaker 4: That's why he needed them to publish eighty guests so

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Speaker 4: that Kyle got the memo you were number eighty one. Yep,

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Speaker 4: it was just that you didn't quite make.

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Speaker 2: The dog wore a dress. What did we think about that?

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Speaker 2: Loved it because there was a five year old flower

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Speaker 2: girl who was Jody's niece. Yep, and she and the

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Speaker 2: dog wore matching Yes, so I didn't know that Toto

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Speaker 2: was a dressed kind of dog.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Anyone who has a dog that they can train to

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Speaker 4: behave and perform a duty on their wedding day deserves

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Speaker 4: a medal.

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Speaker 1: Apparently Toto got a bit of stage fright. No, apparently

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Speaker 1: it was a bit touch and go going to make

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Speaker 1: it down the aisle.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have best man, best women, didn't do any

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Speaker 2: of that. They just had themselves.

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Speaker 1: I approve of. I'm on the record as saying wedding

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Speaker 1: parties of control.

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Speaker 4: I have a big question. This is my new Roman Empire.

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Speaker 4: They're going on a honeymoon in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Right are they going to carry out to that? They

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Speaker 1: went overseas last month or quite recently to supposedly plan

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Speaker 1: the wedding, so you know, it was moons constant.

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Speaker 4: So they're going on a honeymoon. It has to be Australia,

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Speaker 4: I suppose, Right, is there honeymoon. They want to go

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Speaker 4: somewhere fancy, but at the same time can't be too fancy.

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Speaker 4: All I do is think about they are because where they.

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Speaker 3: Want to go blow their security. Where they want to

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Speaker 3: go is Qualia.

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Speaker 1: Where they do have to go, it's probably a caravan

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Speaker 1: park or.

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Speaker 2: I went, oh, they could go there.

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Speaker 3: I think they could this year.

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Speaker 2: It's stunning.

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Speaker 1: It's not no ways safe labor. They need to go.

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Speaker 1: It's Queensland they're going to.

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Speaker 3: That's the rumor is that it's North Queensland. So where

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Speaker 3: in North.

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Speaker 1: Queens because the politically Queensland is a bit more of

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Speaker 1: a sort of like oscillating state in terms of it's

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Speaker 1: party preferences. I think it's going to be Queensland. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: where is anyone's guess.

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Speaker 3: This is your deep telling you that Magnetic Islands.

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Speaker 2: Oh they're going to Golsid Island.

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Speaker 1: They're going to go. That's no, that's too shy. I

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Speaker 1: think it's Gold Coast.

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Speaker 2: No, nothing wrong with the Gold Coast. But they've got

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Speaker 2: to go somewhere remote.

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Speaker 1: And he's going to want to do a DJ set

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Speaker 1: somewhere he.

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Speaker 2: Gets to turn his phone off. This is what I

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Speaker 2: said to Brent. I was like, imagine being Jodi, who

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Speaker 2: has her own job and all those things. Imagine being

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Speaker 2: married to the Prime minister, like a you've got to

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Speaker 2: work out whether or not you know your drinks are

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Speaker 2: too expensive or whatever at the wedding. But also does

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Speaker 2: he ever get to turn his phone off on the honeymoon,

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Speaker 2: even for twenty four hours? What did they good?

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Speaker 3: Question?

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Speaker 2: Because I think it would be tough being married.

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Speaker 3: Not right twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: I think I muld have waited till he got voted out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 4: And it's an interesting part in the cycle, right because

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Speaker 4: by the time there's another election, they will have forgotten

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Speaker 4: about the wedding, right, they had to time it to

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Speaker 4: kind of go timing.

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Speaker 3: He had a good year, He had a good year.

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Speaker 4: I think this time of year he maybe waited for

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Speaker 4: a few foreign policy things to chill.

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Speaker 2: Like I think they're watching the sunset and broom right now.

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Speaker 2: I think they are. I think then they're on a camel.

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Speaker 2: They't like they've got all that. I reckon, we'll get

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Speaker 2: one pitch. So I saw this on my feed. I

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Speaker 2: must have had a tingling sense that Albo had news

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Speaker 2: for me. And there's Abon it just said married. It

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Speaker 2: was very cool. One picture married. I think we'll get

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Speaker 2: one sunset and broom picture.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm going far north Queensland.

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Speaker 1: That's my money.

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Speaker 2: Australia's having a good weekend. Not only did we have

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Speaker 2: a very cool prime ministerial wedding, DBC reported it thought

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Speaker 2: it was very tasteful.

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Speaker 1: Oh I know, look at that.

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Speaker 2: They obviously hadn't seen the matching beer cans. Anyway, not

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Speaker 2: only do we have that, but we also have the

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Speaker 2: man that the entire universe is pointing at and saying,

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Speaker 2: this is what we need more of, and it is

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Speaker 2: one Robert Irwin. On the weekend there was an article

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times, if you don't mind, called

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Speaker 2: Robert Irwin is actually that nice? And in it, journalist

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Speaker 2: Ashley Spencer writes, fans and there are many, have praised

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Speaker 2: mister Irwin as a beacon of positive masculinity. For his vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: he makes no attempt to appear cool or aloof. He

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Speaker 2: often throws his head back in full throated laughter, and

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Speaker 2: he gleefully celebrates everyone around him. So we have arrived

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Speaker 2: at a place, friends, where one of the most adored

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Speaker 2: men in the world. He just won Dancing with the Stars.

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Speaker 2: He's everywhere you look. Grew up in a zoo on

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Speaker 2: the Sunshine Coast, Jesse. What is it about Robert Irwin

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Speaker 2: that is the beacon of positive masculinity?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 4: When I was doing a bit of work with Channel

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Speaker 4: tent through the project, he obviously had started hosting I'm

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Speaker 4: a Celebrity and had come up on He'd done a

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Speaker 4: few stints and stuff on the project. I never heard

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Speaker 4: a single bad word about that much. He was universally loved.

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Speaker 4: They all said that that is.

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Speaker 3: Such a good question, Amelia.

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Speaker 4: I was on my best behavior hearing that information, and

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Speaker 4: they were like, he's just so charismatic and happy all

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Speaker 4: the time. I was like, he is just so good

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Speaker 4: at what he does, and he was spotted and they

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Speaker 4: kind of went, this man is actually talent. And when

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Speaker 4: he went on to do I'm a Celebrity, I didn't

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Speaker 4: know this, but he said to them, I'm sure I

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Speaker 4: read this in the New York Times article that he

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Speaker 4: only agreed to it if they agreed to stop serving

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Speaker 4: native wildlife and it's eating challenges. So he had his

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Speaker 4: light line where he just went, yeah, I'll do it,

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Speaker 4: but just don't do that. The other detail in that

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Speaker 4: profile was did you see the footage of Prince William

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Speaker 4: wish him good luck on dancing with.

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Speaker 2: The sin about the universal adoration? Royalty is beaming in

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Speaker 2: to wish him good luck. The New York Times is writing, gosh,

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Speaker 2: is Amelia, you have an understanding of what Americans like

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Speaker 2: about Australias. What's going on here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. There was a quote that stood out

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Speaker 1: to me, and the article came from I think his mum.

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Speaker 1: She said he's what Tom Cruise wishes he was. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I thought that was interesting is because he

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Speaker 1: seems genuinely relaxed in front of the camera, Yes, which

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Speaker 1: I think we take to mean he's a good guy

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Speaker 1: and he sounds like a good guy, But he does

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Speaker 1: telegraph genuine relaxation in front of in front of a camera,

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Speaker 1: and it's like almost a movie star quality, which is

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Speaker 1: I think why his mom bought in Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 2: Do you think we like that because that's such a

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Speaker 2: good point. If you can appear relaxed in front of

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Speaker 2: the camera, it makes you quite likable. Do you think

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Speaker 2: that's because it kind of suggests you have nothing to.

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Speaker 1: Happen yeah, I think so. I think we sort of

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Speaker 1: see it as a proxy for someone who's honest and

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Speaker 1: reliable and upstanding. And then I was thinking about why

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Speaker 1: he would be relaxed, and it's because he he's been

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Speaker 1: in front of cameras since he was born. I was

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Speaker 1: reminded in this article that he was filmed as a

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Speaker 1: newborn in the delivery room because of course his father

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Speaker 1: was already a celebrity. And then just a few weeks

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Speaker 1: after that there was this big uproar because his father

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Speaker 1: was holding him in one arm while feeding a crocodile

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Speaker 1: in the other. So if you're already having that experience

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Speaker 1: in front of the camera when you're four weeks old,

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Speaker 1: you're probably able to convey a lot of relaxation when

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Speaker 1: you get older.

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Speaker 2: So interesting though, isn't it, Because for some kids who've

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Speaker 2: grown up with that kind of fame following them around,

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Speaker 2: particularly a big law like with Steve Owen, who obviously

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Speaker 2: tragically died so young. You can go one of two ways.

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Speaker 2: It can either make you very private and very like

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Speaker 2: I hate these people who always trying to get into

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Speaker 2: my life, or to your point, it can make you

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Speaker 2: just relax and see it for what it is in

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Speaker 2: terms of doing good with that.

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Speaker 1: It's like Prince Harry is sort of the first example.

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Speaker 2: That's why Prince William called he was like a word

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Speaker 2: Harry for me.

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Speaker 4: I want a parenting book written by Terry. I think

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Speaker 4: Terry knows exactly what she's doing, what a brilliant mother.

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Speaker 4: I cannot watch Robert Owen do anything without a tear

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Speaker 4: in my eye because I think about how proud his

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Speaker 4: father would be, So I think that's an element to it.

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Speaker 4: And also Bindiowen one ten years ago dancing with the Stars,

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Speaker 4: Did she yes? Ten years ago? And now Robert Owen

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Speaker 4: has won? Is it also because Americans can lay a

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Speaker 4: little bit of claim through Terry, like, yes, he's Australian,

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Speaker 4: but he's also half theirs, so they can kind of

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Speaker 4: he's like mel Gibson, but better exactly without the controversy.

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Speaker 2: Clearly we need both a parenting book and a ballroom

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Speaker 2: dancing guide by Terry.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, also a third book, a marriage book, because

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Speaker 1: you know the clip that goes viral on the internet

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Speaker 1: every six months or so depicts Terry and Steve being

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Speaker 1: interviewed and the way that Terry looks at Steve has

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Speaker 1: almost become an internet meme because she looks at him

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Speaker 1: in such a sort of adoring and loving way. So

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Speaker 1: Terry just needs to advise us.

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Speaker 2: All clearly with Terry Erwindo in a moment, is life

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Speaker 2: just too stressful to have difficult family relationships?

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Speaker 1: As well?

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Speaker 2: The Oprah specials that sparked a whole lot of finger pointing.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is talking about an episode of the Oprah Winfrey Show,

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Speaker 2: which makes me feel fifteen years old. Ope sit a

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Speaker 2: special on her podcast, which is actually a whole TV

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Speaker 2: show on the YouTube platform. It's very funny what gets

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Speaker 2: called a podcast now. And it's exactly like the old

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Speaker 2: Oprah Winfrey Show, this particular.

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Speaker 3: Super soul conversations.

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Speaker 1: It's different.

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Speaker 2: This is the Oprah Show. And so I haven't watched many,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know if they're all the same. Actually

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Speaker 2: I didn't watch it. I listened to it, but I

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Speaker 2: should have watched it because it was made for watching.

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Speaker 2: In that just like the old Oprah Show, there's a

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Speaker 2: studio audience who will have some experience in the topic.

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Speaker 2: There's a panel of experts. So she had three psychologists

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Speaker 2: who had expertise and had written books about it. And

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Speaker 2: then you've got a a handpicked group of people who

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Speaker 2: will have a story to tell you. And this topic

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Speaker 2: was all about family estrangement and particularly how the no

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Speaker 2: contact contagion has taken over TikTok and people's lives. Oprah

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Speaker 2: says she was inspired to do it by the story

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Speaker 2: of a nameless friend. This is what she said, A.

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Speaker 5: Friend might call me recently distraught over the fact that

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Speaker 5: her grown daughter, whom she thought she had a really

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Speaker 5: great relationship with and had recently just gone to dinner with,

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Speaker 5: center a message saying I'm no longer going to be

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Speaker 5: in contact with you. Please do not try to reach me.

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Speaker 5: She thought something had happened to her child, that perhaps

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Speaker 5: she'd been kidnapped, and realized shortly after sending authorities to

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Speaker 5: see if her daughter was okay, that it was true

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Speaker 5: that her daughter no longer wanted to have contact with her.

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Speaker 2: So after that story, said she was inspired to do this,

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Speaker 2: found that the no contact thing was massive, and so

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Speaker 2: we end up with this special where we get all

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Speaker 2: the experts. There are lots of stories on it. Some

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Speaker 2: of them are amazing, I'll tell you later. But some

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Speaker 2: people got a little bit sniffy about the idea of

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Speaker 2: Oprah being like, Oh, there's this thing called family estrangement

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Speaker 2: and it's a trend now and all the young people

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Speaker 2: are doing it. What's wrong with the young people? In particular,

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Speaker 2: this conservative commentator called Tanya Cazal, who is very much

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Speaker 2: about family rehabilitation, I guess you'd say, posted this instagram

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Speaker 2: that got quite a lot attraction of like why is

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Speaker 2: Oprah surprised about this?

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Speaker 6: So now Oprah is shocked by the aftermath of estrangement

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Speaker 6: after being one of the biggest voices pushing it for decades,

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Speaker 6: Oprah the biggest plot twist in the entire family estrangement crisis.

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Speaker 6: While everyone is applauding her for finally discussing estrangement, very

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Speaker 6: few look at the iron in the contradiction. Oprah was

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Speaker 6: one of these strongest voices pushing the normalization of family

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Speaker 6: cut offs and not by accident, publicly, repeatedly, and openly,

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Speaker 6: and this started as far back as the nineties.

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Speaker 2: So Oprah obviously was one of the first TV shows

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Speaker 2: and it's hard to overstate the influence of her at

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Speaker 2: the time. Forty eight million Americans used to watch that

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Speaker 2: show a week like that is wild, and she was

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Speaker 2: very much responsible for a lot of the mainstreaming of

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Speaker 2: the therapy talk that we're all very conversant in. Now,

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Speaker 2: what did we think about this? Let's blame Oprah for

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Speaker 2: exactly what she's talking about.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you, I didn't realize that that commentator

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Speaker 1: that we just heard from is quote unquote conservative. Is

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Speaker 1: that because there's like a political overlay onto this conservative?

404
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Speaker 2: I guess I probably mean she's like a Christian conservative

405
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Speaker 2: family values person. Oh, but I think there definitely is,

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Speaker 2: because I think that the conservative overlay on this issue

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Speaker 2: is that the TikTok snowflake generation can't deal with conflict,

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Speaker 2: and that's why suddenly they're all hashtag not that's not

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Speaker 2: me saying that's the stereotype, And that's why the hashtag

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Speaker 2: no contact has become a little bit of a culture

411
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Speaker 2: war issue in and that it's sort of seen as

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Speaker 2: a bit of a generational schism.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm so glad you raise that, because I do

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Speaker 1: have to admit I look at this a bit cynically

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Speaker 1: from Oprah's perspective. Here, If you think about the fact

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Speaker 1: that there might be a business reason for her to

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Speaker 1: suddenly cotton onto the dangers of family estrangement. I think

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Speaker 1: it's got to do with the age of her fan base.

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Speaker 1: So she's been seeking a younger audience for a really

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Speaker 1: long time now. I saw a twenty twelve New York

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Speaker 1: Times article called Oprah at a Crossroads twenty twelve, which

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Speaker 1: said that she was worried about her audience aging out

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Speaker 1: of her show and not being interested anymore. The median

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Speaker 1: age of her audience then was forty nine, So if

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Speaker 1: you do the maths on that, that means that her

426
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Speaker 1: fan base aging out of being mothers and aging into

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Speaker 1: being grandmothers, and they are the people who do not

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Speaker 1: want to be estranged from this quote unquote younger generation.

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Speaker 1: It's a business move on Oprah's part.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, because the one thing I kept asking hearing

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Speaker 4: that criticism was hang on, did.

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Speaker 3: Oprah push estrangement? And I consumed a lot of in

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Speaker 3: the nineties.

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Speaker 1: Each of your experience as well, because I basically watched

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Speaker 1: it when I was chucking a sicky and came from school.

436
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Speaker 3: I chucked a lot of sicky got it, so, you

437
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Speaker 3: know a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

439
00:21:23,874 --> 00:21:25,794
Speaker 4: So I would do my doctor film, my Oprah on

440
00:21:25,874 --> 00:21:30,474
Speaker 4: my Ready Steady Cooks, and I didn't do feel, I

441
00:21:31,474 --> 00:21:33,594
Speaker 4: don't know, really big on Oprah and every now and

442
00:21:33,594 --> 00:21:36,314
Speaker 4: then you just got a really good one. And while

443
00:21:36,354 --> 00:21:41,634
Speaker 4: she popularized terms maybe like toxic and I think narcissism

444
00:21:41,754 --> 00:21:45,114
Speaker 4: and those sorts of things and interviewed psychologists, I wouldn't

445
00:21:45,154 --> 00:21:49,234
Speaker 4: say she was encouraging people to go no contact. She

446
00:21:49,554 --> 00:21:53,994
Speaker 4: was about protecting your peace, and she had obviously had

447
00:21:54,314 --> 00:21:59,154
Speaker 4: really complicated family dynamics that she was honest about. But

448
00:21:59,274 --> 00:22:03,554
Speaker 4: what I struggle with when it comes to talking about

449
00:22:03,634 --> 00:22:07,234
Speaker 4: family estrangement as a cultural trend is that.

450
00:22:07,314 --> 00:22:08,474
Speaker 2: It isn't one thing.

451
00:22:08,714 --> 00:22:13,514
Speaker 4: It is millions of painful stories that vary from abuse

452
00:22:13,914 --> 00:22:18,074
Speaker 4: to neglect to maybe it is something that your eyes

453
00:22:18,274 --> 00:22:21,234
Speaker 4: would see as small. But to lump them all in

454
00:22:21,274 --> 00:22:25,074
Speaker 4: together and to suggest that rehabilitation is ideal for everyone

455
00:22:25,234 --> 00:22:30,033
Speaker 4: is also sugarcoating it, Like I think that it's unrealistic,

456
00:22:30,194 --> 00:22:32,994
Speaker 4: And so I find that as a cultural war issue,

457
00:22:33,034 --> 00:22:35,114
Speaker 4: I'm I find it irritating.

458
00:22:35,474 --> 00:22:38,354
Speaker 2: Yes, I know exactly what you mean. So Oprah starts

459
00:22:38,394 --> 00:22:41,474
Speaker 2: this by saying that one third of Americans now say

460
00:22:41,554 --> 00:22:43,834
Speaker 2: that they are a strange from a family member. Now

461
00:22:43,834 --> 00:22:47,034
Speaker 2: that could mean their sister, their uncle. It doesn't have

462
00:22:47,114 --> 00:22:48,674
Speaker 2: to be in their parents. But that is a lot

463
00:22:49,274 --> 00:22:51,834
Speaker 2: and there is no question that this is a big trend,

464
00:22:52,074 --> 00:22:55,194
Speaker 2: like hashtag no contact on TikTok, lots of advice out

465
00:22:55,194 --> 00:22:57,354
Speaker 2: there about how to do it, how to pull it off,

466
00:22:57,594 --> 00:22:59,474
Speaker 2: people like get ready with me while I go and

467
00:22:59,514 --> 00:23:01,914
Speaker 2: tell my mum no contact. And also from the other side,

468
00:23:02,434 --> 00:23:05,313
Speaker 2: parents who've had this happen to them, their kild's got

469
00:23:05,354 --> 00:23:07,834
Speaker 2: no contact, making a lot of content about it, which

470
00:23:07,874 --> 00:23:10,874
Speaker 2: obviously is new in Oprah world. To your point about

471
00:23:10,914 --> 00:23:12,874
Speaker 2: why she would do it, Amelia, to me, it seems

472
00:23:12,914 --> 00:23:16,513
Speaker 2: like a perfect classic Oprah topic because you can get

473
00:23:16,554 --> 00:23:18,313
Speaker 2: all the sides in the room and have them talk

474
00:23:18,354 --> 00:23:21,114
Speaker 2: about it. It's not like Oprah was going, hey, I

475
00:23:21,114 --> 00:23:23,273
Speaker 2: think it's great, or hey I think it's bad. She

476
00:23:23,394 --> 00:23:25,914
Speaker 2: was just saying, let's talk about it. And the only

477
00:23:25,954 --> 00:23:28,554
Speaker 2: thing I found disingenuous is she did keep saying, oh,

478
00:23:28,594 --> 00:23:30,793
Speaker 2: in my day, we just had to put up with

479
00:23:30,874 --> 00:23:34,033
Speaker 2: all this stuff, which is a very common sort of

480
00:23:34,074 --> 00:23:37,914
Speaker 2: boomerish argument. But I want to play you a little

481
00:23:37,994 --> 00:23:41,273
Speaker 2: grab from one of the experts on this panel. She

482
00:23:41,514 --> 00:23:43,874
Speaker 2: is a woman called doctor Lindsay Gibson, and she's written

483
00:23:43,914 --> 00:23:48,273
Speaker 2: books about emotionally immature parents. And basically the argument here

484
00:23:48,274 --> 00:23:50,794
Speaker 2: because as you've said, Jesse, it is so complex why

485
00:23:50,834 --> 00:23:53,834
Speaker 2: people estrange their parents or decide not to talk to

486
00:23:53,874 --> 00:23:57,274
Speaker 2: them anymore, And everyone listening to us right now would

487
00:23:57,274 --> 00:24:00,794
Speaker 2: have such different experiences of their parental situation. But Dr

488
00:24:00,834 --> 00:24:02,874
Speaker 2: Lindsay Gibson kind of says that part of this is

489
00:24:02,914 --> 00:24:06,514
Speaker 2: about a generation of people who are kind of therapized

490
00:24:06,554 --> 00:24:09,354
Speaker 2: and understand stand a little bit about how to protect

491
00:24:09,394 --> 00:24:11,874
Speaker 2: their emotional piece and people who don't. But her other

492
00:24:11,994 --> 00:24:15,273
Speaker 2: argument is is that life has just become too stressful

493
00:24:15,354 --> 00:24:17,514
Speaker 2: for difficult relationships. This is what she said.

494
00:24:17,874 --> 00:24:21,874
Speaker 7: We don't have the energy to put into relationships where

495
00:24:21,954 --> 00:24:27,714
Speaker 7: someone is going to be continually pushing back and making

496
00:24:27,794 --> 00:24:30,714
Speaker 7: us feel that what is going on inside us is

497
00:24:30,754 --> 00:24:31,994
Speaker 7: not valid.

498
00:24:32,034 --> 00:24:33,874
Speaker 1: Or is not true in some way.

499
00:24:34,314 --> 00:24:38,194
Speaker 7: This old way of the respect for the role itself,

500
00:24:39,034 --> 00:24:41,474
Speaker 7: I think, for the role of the parent or the

501
00:24:41,514 --> 00:24:44,154
Speaker 7: authority figure thy mother.

502
00:24:44,314 --> 00:24:45,194
Speaker 1: Yes exactly.

503
00:24:45,474 --> 00:24:49,114
Speaker 7: Yes, it says honor them, It doesn't say obey them,

504
00:24:49,234 --> 00:24:51,674
Speaker 7: agree with them, do whatever they say, make them the

505
00:24:51,714 --> 00:24:56,714
Speaker 7: most important person in the relationship. So those days of

506
00:24:56,794 --> 00:24:59,954
Speaker 7: the role trumping everything else are gone.

507
00:25:00,394 --> 00:25:01,154
Speaker 1: People do not.

508
00:25:01,274 --> 00:25:06,594
Speaker 7: Have the energy now to sustain a relationship that is

509
00:25:06,714 --> 00:25:11,434
Speaker 7: drained or difficult or constantly conflectual.

510
00:25:11,754 --> 00:25:16,114
Speaker 2: She started that point by saying life has become too stressful,

511
00:25:16,154 --> 00:25:19,314
Speaker 2: like in general, too much is being astronomos all all

512
00:25:19,354 --> 00:25:22,394
Speaker 2: the time, and so our batteries are drained when it

513
00:25:22,434 --> 00:25:26,074
Speaker 2: comes to dealing with complicated relationships, and that that's part

514
00:25:26,114 --> 00:25:29,554
Speaker 2: of why there's a growing trend to simplify. What do

515
00:25:29,594 --> 00:25:30,274
Speaker 2: you think about that?

516
00:25:30,514 --> 00:25:33,954
Speaker 4: I think that's an interesting point. I also have seen

517
00:25:33,994 --> 00:25:38,634
Speaker 4: a lot of commentary recently about the structure of therapy

518
00:25:38,794 --> 00:25:41,514
Speaker 4: and how there's a big push in therapy to sit down,

519
00:25:41,634 --> 00:25:45,114
Speaker 4: to go back through childhood to go what was your

520
00:25:45,194 --> 00:25:46,954
Speaker 4: relationship with your parents' attachment?

521
00:25:47,034 --> 00:25:48,074
Speaker 3: Da da da da da, and.

522
00:25:48,474 --> 00:25:51,794
Speaker 4: Not to necessarily blame that, but to understand yourself through

523
00:25:51,834 --> 00:25:55,674
Speaker 4: the prism of childhood relationships, which can make you look

524
00:25:55,714 --> 00:25:58,314
Speaker 4: at your parents in a way that can be very

525
00:25:58,394 --> 00:26:01,033
Speaker 4: very critical. I reckon too, that the reason that this

526
00:26:01,114 --> 00:26:04,754
Speaker 4: has blown up now is because Christmas is around the corner,

527
00:26:05,274 --> 00:26:08,033
Speaker 4: and most families, I would say, are going to have a.

528
00:26:08,034 --> 00:26:08,954
Speaker 3: Few empty seats.

529
00:26:09,394 --> 00:26:12,793
Speaker 4: Like whether it's a strange man, or it's conflict or

530
00:26:12,834 --> 00:26:16,074
Speaker 4: whatever it is, it's a pain point in so many

531
00:26:16,074 --> 00:26:19,793
Speaker 4: families and to the point about the boomer perspective or

532
00:26:19,794 --> 00:26:21,513
Speaker 4: the Oprah perspective.

533
00:26:22,074 --> 00:26:22,914
Speaker 3: I was at.

534
00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:24,714
Speaker 4: Tim mintionin He has a show and I went over

535
00:26:24,794 --> 00:26:27,754
Speaker 4: the weekend and he made this point about adulthood and

536
00:26:27,754 --> 00:26:32,034
Speaker 4: as you get older, you realize that your shit parents

537
00:26:32,474 --> 00:26:35,754
Speaker 4: his words, not mine, your ship parents were just the

538
00:26:35,834 --> 00:26:38,274
Speaker 4: victim of other shit parents, and they were the victim

539
00:26:38,274 --> 00:26:41,313
Speaker 4: of probably more shit parents. And parenting is just holding

540
00:26:41,354 --> 00:26:45,833
Speaker 4: a sieve and trying to keep the mental illness and

541
00:26:46,074 --> 00:26:49,313
Speaker 4: generational trauma out and let the good bits kind of

542
00:26:49,354 --> 00:26:53,714
Speaker 4: filter down, and we all fail at that. And I thought,

543
00:26:54,674 --> 00:26:58,114
Speaker 4: sometimes what's lacking in this And when I hear tiktoks

544
00:26:58,114 --> 00:27:00,754
Speaker 4: about parntal estrangement or whatever, what I do think is

545
00:27:00,834 --> 00:27:04,073
Speaker 4: lacking is a bit of compassion for how you know

546
00:27:04,194 --> 00:27:07,794
Speaker 4: your parents were parented or the experience. That's what happens

547
00:27:07,794 --> 00:27:09,954
Speaker 4: when you call them a toxic or narcissistic, that it

548
00:27:10,114 --> 00:27:13,554
Speaker 4: just means that there's no room for empathy in their

549
00:27:13,594 --> 00:27:15,434
Speaker 4: own structures and how they were raised.

550
00:27:15,674 --> 00:27:18,034
Speaker 2: You're very right about the seasonal nature of this, because

551
00:27:18,074 --> 00:27:20,714
Speaker 2: I also saw today and I know it's my algorithm too.

552
00:27:21,074 --> 00:27:23,874
Speaker 2: Mel Robbins was there talking about how to deal with

553
00:27:23,994 --> 00:27:26,394
Speaker 2: parents who drive you crazy, and she was saying the

554
00:27:26,394 --> 00:27:28,394
Speaker 2: most important she would say this being the queen of

555
00:27:28,474 --> 00:27:30,874
Speaker 2: let them, but the most important thing is to realize

556
00:27:30,914 --> 00:27:33,434
Speaker 2: you can't change them like people who are really established

557
00:27:33,434 --> 00:27:36,313
Speaker 2: in their dynamic and maybe you're all day, every day

558
00:27:36,394 --> 00:27:40,114
Speaker 2: go my parents' marriage dynamic is so squog. Why can't

559
00:27:40,154 --> 00:27:42,554
Speaker 2: they see how screwed it is? Why weren't they changed?

560
00:27:42,594 --> 00:27:45,674
Speaker 2: It's like they are not going to change. The only

561
00:27:45,714 --> 00:27:47,594
Speaker 2: thing you can change is how you relate to it.

562
00:27:47,714 --> 00:27:49,194
Speaker 2: And I guess that's one of the things that brings

563
00:27:49,234 --> 00:27:50,674
Speaker 2: you right back to One of the ways I can

564
00:27:50,714 --> 00:27:52,273
Speaker 2: relate to it is to not to go to Christmas

565
00:27:52,314 --> 00:27:54,714
Speaker 2: dinner and be driven crazy by it. And then that's

566
00:27:54,754 --> 00:27:56,114
Speaker 2: why you're back in this whole suit.

567
00:27:56,274 --> 00:27:58,234
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I also think it is a soup that

568
00:27:58,394 --> 00:28:02,874
Speaker 1: Oprah did have a hand in creating Jess. You mentioned

569
00:28:02,914 --> 00:28:06,594
Speaker 1: before that you're not sure whether she tackled family estrangement

570
00:28:06,674 --> 00:28:11,554
Speaker 1: head on her show, as we've established the authority on

571
00:28:11,554 --> 00:28:14,114
Speaker 1: her show much more than I am, because I was

572
00:28:14,114 --> 00:28:17,313
Speaker 1: not as convincing it at Chucking Siki's as you. But

573
00:28:17,754 --> 00:28:21,194
Speaker 1: the therapization of speech is something that came from Oprah,

574
00:28:21,274 --> 00:28:25,794
Speaker 1: so look at that word toxic that we mentioned that word.

575
00:28:25,954 --> 00:28:28,874
Speaker 1: The problem with that word is that it says that

576
00:28:28,994 --> 00:28:33,274
Speaker 1: someone is doing something to you. It's not a relationship dynamic.

577
00:28:33,354 --> 00:28:36,833
Speaker 1: It's that a person is toxic and therefore incapable of

578
00:28:37,034 --> 00:28:40,594
Speaker 1: growing or modifying their behavior in any way. And I

579
00:28:40,634 --> 00:28:43,434
Speaker 1: was just curious as to the extent to which Oprah

580
00:28:43,474 --> 00:28:45,274
Speaker 1: has pushed that word, So I did a search on

581
00:28:45,354 --> 00:28:49,874
Speaker 1: Oprah's website for that word. That word is used countless

582
00:28:49,874 --> 00:28:52,394
Speaker 1: times on her website, hundreds of times on her website.

583
00:28:52,394 --> 00:28:55,874
Speaker 1: In fact, headline's like three ways to ward off Toxic people,

584
00:28:56,114 --> 00:29:00,554
Speaker 1: is your family toxic, confront your toxic relationships. Toxic does

585
00:29:00,594 --> 00:29:02,714
Speaker 1: not mean that you can work with each other and

586
00:29:02,754 --> 00:29:05,994
Speaker 1: find common ground. It means that, like a toxic chemical,

587
00:29:06,074 --> 00:29:08,794
Speaker 1: it has to be per it has to be removed.

588
00:29:08,434 --> 00:29:10,194
Speaker 4: And the one of you is right and one of

589
00:29:10,234 --> 00:29:12,674
Speaker 4: you is wrong. And one thing that I have learned

590
00:29:12,714 --> 00:29:15,234
Speaker 4: from listening to this is why we fight the mum

591
00:29:15,274 --> 00:29:17,954
Speaker 4: Maya podcast. And I've thought it recently. I was in

592
00:29:17,954 --> 00:29:21,674
Speaker 4: an interpersonal conflict situation and I thought if I sat

593
00:29:21,714 --> 00:29:24,394
Speaker 4: down with that therapist, she would not look me in

594
00:29:24,434 --> 00:29:27,074
Speaker 4: the eye and say, Jesse, you are so right, You

595
00:29:27,154 --> 00:29:30,394
Speaker 4: are so right, and she is so wrong. What she

596
00:29:30,434 --> 00:29:32,634
Speaker 4: would do is she would look at us and go,

597
00:29:33,194 --> 00:29:36,874
Speaker 4: this dynamic is slightly broken, and there are things that

598
00:29:37,034 --> 00:29:40,314
Speaker 4: both of you can do and look, as we kind

599
00:29:40,354 --> 00:29:43,234
Speaker 4: of said, like abuse neglect, put that to the side asolutely.

600
00:29:43,274 --> 00:29:46,474
Speaker 4: But in a lot of relationships it is a dynamic

601
00:29:46,834 --> 00:29:51,554
Speaker 4: rather than a sort of victim perpetrator mentality, which maybe

602
00:29:51,594 --> 00:29:52,754
Speaker 4: we've internalized a bit.

603
00:29:53,034 --> 00:29:55,874
Speaker 2: I agree. I also think though the question of whether

604
00:29:55,954 --> 00:29:59,714
Speaker 2: or not Oprah is culpable in this Your point is

605
00:29:59,754 --> 00:30:02,274
Speaker 2: so right, Amelia. But if you think about the time

606
00:30:02,314 --> 00:30:04,874
Speaker 2: that she was at her peak influence, and as I said,

607
00:30:04,874 --> 00:30:08,154
Speaker 2: forty eight million Americans were watching her, most of those

608
00:30:08,154 --> 00:30:10,634
Speaker 2: people would have had no access to therapy. Right, twenty

609
00:30:10,714 --> 00:30:13,034
Speaker 2: years ago, thirty years ago, we did not talk in

610
00:30:13,074 --> 00:30:16,194
Speaker 2: the way that we talk now about boundaries, about you know,

611
00:30:16,474 --> 00:30:18,914
Speaker 2: protecting your peace and all those things, and there's no

612
00:30:19,034 --> 00:30:21,634
Speaker 2: question that Oprah was part of that. Is that a

613
00:30:21,754 --> 00:30:24,354
Speaker 2: wholesale bad thing or a wholesale good thing? Right that

614
00:30:24,474 --> 00:30:28,554
Speaker 2: now a much broader slice of the population has access

615
00:30:28,634 --> 00:30:32,714
Speaker 2: to this kind of understanding of relationships. Maybe it's a

616
00:30:32,754 --> 00:30:34,834
Speaker 2: bad thing when it all gets filtered down with TikTok

617
00:30:34,874 --> 00:30:37,554
Speaker 2: hashtag or maybe it's a good thing because we're putting

618
00:30:37,634 --> 00:30:41,154
Speaker 2: up with less nonsense, but it's probably not either black horns.

619
00:30:41,234 --> 00:30:41,274
Speaker 5: No.

620
00:30:41,554 --> 00:30:43,354
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point, and I should add

621
00:30:43,354 --> 00:30:45,874
Speaker 1: the disclaimer that I'm really mad at Oprah right now

622
00:30:45,994 --> 00:30:47,874
Speaker 1: because I don't know if you saw in the news,

623
00:30:47,914 --> 00:30:51,834
Speaker 1: but last week the Trump administration released a statement that

624
00:30:52,034 --> 00:30:56,074
Speaker 1: said that vaccines cause autism, that certain vaccines cause autism.

625
00:30:56,354 --> 00:31:00,114
Speaker 1: They do not, And the reason why it's releasing those

626
00:31:00,154 --> 00:31:03,554
Speaker 1: statements is because Trump's Department of Health is headed by

627
00:31:03,834 --> 00:31:08,394
Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who is a renowned vaccine jenia,

628
00:31:08,514 --> 00:31:11,914
Speaker 1: who Oprah interviewed and spotlighted back in two thousand and

629
00:31:11,954 --> 00:31:14,754
Speaker 1: seven when he was just getting into his vaccine fight.

630
00:31:14,994 --> 00:31:16,994
Speaker 1: The same year she had Jenny McCarthy on her shop.

631
00:31:19,954 --> 00:31:21,954
Speaker 2: That's why I knew you were going to say that,

632
00:31:21,994 --> 00:31:24,434
Speaker 2: because you know how some moments of television stick in

633
00:31:24,474 --> 00:31:28,074
Speaker 2: your head. I remember watching, whether it was live or

634
00:31:28,114 --> 00:31:32,634
Speaker 2: you know, repeat the episode of Jenny McCarthy. It's burned

635
00:31:32,634 --> 00:31:33,234
Speaker 2: on my brain.

636
00:31:34,114 --> 00:31:35,434
Speaker 1: So what happened in it? What was it?

637
00:31:35,474 --> 00:31:35,514
Speaker 4: Like?

638
00:31:35,914 --> 00:31:37,754
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to repeat such a danger,

639
00:31:37,834 --> 00:31:38,194
Speaker 2: but like.

640
00:31:38,234 --> 00:31:41,954
Speaker 1: Did it feel compelling, and it also was the first

641
00:31:41,994 --> 00:31:45,874
Speaker 1: time anyone had heard this.

642
00:31:44,834 --> 00:31:47,354
Speaker 2: This woman saying I took my child to get their

643
00:31:47,434 --> 00:31:49,674
Speaker 2: vaccines and then this happened. So we all know that

644
00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:51,394
Speaker 2: that has been enormously discredited.

645
00:31:51,514 --> 00:31:54,754
Speaker 1: Apparently I dug deep on this as pera Vanity Fair

646
00:31:54,834 --> 00:31:59,194
Speaker 1: article about RFK Jr. He learned about this narrative from that.

647
00:32:00,274 --> 00:32:02,914
Speaker 2: So this is what's so interesting, and this is why

648
00:32:03,074 --> 00:32:04,474
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, we could go down a rabbit

649
00:32:04,514 --> 00:32:06,274
Speaker 2: hole on this, but there are lots of the most

650
00:32:06,834 --> 00:32:10,954
Speaker 2: pope podcasts in the world right now. Our CEOs are rogans,

651
00:32:10,994 --> 00:32:13,634
Speaker 2: all those guys who have all kinds of health experts

652
00:32:13,634 --> 00:32:15,434
Speaker 2: on where they just throw out these things and say

653
00:32:15,514 --> 00:32:18,354
Speaker 2: just asking questions. I always think about Jenny McCarthy. I

654
00:32:18,394 --> 00:32:20,674
Speaker 2: can pitch you what she was wearing sitting on that couch.

655
00:32:21,074 --> 00:32:22,954
Speaker 2: It was the beginning of a lot of stuff. But

656
00:32:23,154 --> 00:32:24,354
Speaker 2: could Oprah foreseen it.

657
00:32:24,434 --> 00:32:24,714
Speaker 6: I don't know.

658
00:32:24,754 --> 00:32:26,274
Speaker 2: If we can blame her for everything.

659
00:32:26,634 --> 00:32:28,314
Speaker 1: We probably can't blame her for anything. I'll leave you

660
00:32:28,354 --> 00:32:31,074
Speaker 1: with this. I think we've all become very captive to

661
00:32:31,154 --> 00:32:33,954
Speaker 1: therapy speak, and I am not exempt from that. I

662
00:32:33,994 --> 00:32:36,754
Speaker 1: remember I was going through an interpersonal conflict, crazy as

663
00:32:36,754 --> 00:32:38,954
Speaker 1: it is to imagine that I would ever have conflict

664
00:32:38,994 --> 00:32:42,274
Speaker 1: with someone, but I did. And this person is someone

665
00:32:42,314 --> 00:32:44,114
Speaker 1: who was close to me but does not listen to

666
00:32:44,194 --> 00:32:47,794
Speaker 1: this podcast. And I spoke to a friend who is

667
00:32:47,794 --> 00:32:50,554
Speaker 1: a therapist about what to do, and I said, I

668
00:32:50,674 --> 00:32:53,154
Speaker 1: just feel I need to hold my boundaries with this person.

669
00:32:53,754 --> 00:32:56,234
Speaker 1: And my therapist friends said to me, respectfully, you were

670
00:32:56,234 --> 00:33:00,114
Speaker 1: full of shit. That mere is not just a kind

671
00:33:00,114 --> 00:33:04,114
Speaker 1: of like catch all for not having responsibilities or obligations

672
00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:06,474
Speaker 1: to other people and not being asked to see it

673
00:33:06,554 --> 00:33:09,914
Speaker 1: from theirspective. And she just gently told me that I

674
00:33:09,914 --> 00:33:11,914
Speaker 1: didn't know what I was talking about to say.

675
00:33:12,154 --> 00:33:15,274
Speaker 2: I laugh that we all need a friend who'll say, respectfully,

676
00:33:15,314 --> 00:33:16,274
Speaker 2: you're full of shits.

677
00:33:17,794 --> 00:33:21,514
Speaker 4: After the Break, Australia voted for their favorite content creator

678
00:33:21,554 --> 00:33:25,434
Speaker 4: and we want to know, does it reveal a double standard.

679
00:33:25,914 --> 00:33:29,674
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

680
00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:33,794
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

681
00:33:33,794 --> 00:33:35,554
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears

682
00:33:35,794 --> 00:33:38,554
Speaker 2: five days a week and a huge thank you to

683
00:33:38,714 --> 00:33:40,714
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

684
00:33:44,674 --> 00:33:49,474
Speaker 4: Last week, the fifth annual TikTok Awards took place in Sydney,

685
00:33:49,514 --> 00:33:50,834
Speaker 4: and it looked like a total vibe.

686
00:33:50,874 --> 00:33:51,874
Speaker 3: Were your ladies invited?

687
00:33:52,114 --> 00:33:55,394
Speaker 2: I was not. Some of our work friends were ind

688
00:33:55,714 --> 00:33:56,394
Speaker 2: they went.

689
00:33:56,554 --> 00:33:57,794
Speaker 3: It looked cool they but.

690
00:33:57,834 --> 00:34:00,834
Speaker 2: They had a really good time. They had my favorite song.

691
00:34:03,314 --> 00:34:07,274
Speaker 3: And the Wiggles were dancing favorite dancing too. I can

692
00:34:07,394 --> 00:34:11,873
Speaker 3: get the get this great song.

693
00:34:12,114 --> 00:34:15,594
Speaker 4: The legals were involved, and then Jonathan Bailey World Sex

694
00:34:15,634 --> 00:34:16,473
Speaker 4: Fifth Man showed up.

695
00:34:16,474 --> 00:34:16,994
Speaker 5: I was he that?

696
00:34:17,114 --> 00:34:19,074
Speaker 1: I feel like he's everywhere.

697
00:34:18,634 --> 00:34:20,354
Speaker 3: He That was just very exciting.

698
00:34:20,834 --> 00:34:24,433
Speaker 4: The biggest award is the Creator of the Year, and

699
00:34:24,994 --> 00:34:27,874
Speaker 4: this year it was awarded to a man I hadn't

700
00:34:27,874 --> 00:34:30,994
Speaker 4: heard of before. He goes by the name of Heveya

701
00:34:31,234 --> 00:34:34,634
Speaker 4: six seven six. He has two point eight million followers.

702
00:34:34,754 --> 00:34:38,354
Speaker 4: His actual name is Hevea Mantangi. He is the first

703
00:34:38,514 --> 00:34:43,234
Speaker 4: Pacific Islander to win the award, and even from the

704
00:34:43,274 --> 00:34:48,154
Speaker 4: Logis to the Arias. To have a Pacific Islander win

705
00:34:48,194 --> 00:34:52,314
Speaker 4: an award like that, I think was really exciting because

706
00:34:52,714 --> 00:34:56,354
Speaker 4: that demographic is incredibly underrepresented when it comes to the

707
00:34:56,474 --> 00:35:01,234
Speaker 4: arts entertainment. Absolutely something to celebrate. The award is decided

708
00:35:01,234 --> 00:35:04,634
Speaker 4: by a public vote, and of all the awards this year,

709
00:35:04,634 --> 00:35:04,913
Speaker 4: there were.

710
00:35:04,874 --> 00:35:06,354
Speaker 3: More than six million votes.

711
00:35:07,194 --> 00:35:10,474
Speaker 4: Was broadcast across TikTok and everything like, there's an argument

712
00:35:10,514 --> 00:35:13,434
Speaker 4: that hey, more people watch this than probably the Logi's

713
00:35:13,994 --> 00:35:15,154
Speaker 4: the as I got.

714
00:35:14,954 --> 00:35:17,554
Speaker 2: Home that day and my daughter was like, did you

715
00:35:17,594 --> 00:35:20,074
Speaker 2: go to the TikTok Awards? Are you going to watch

716
00:35:20,114 --> 00:35:22,674
Speaker 2: the TikTok Awards? Like I struggle to explain to what

717
00:35:22,754 --> 00:35:25,794
Speaker 2: the oscars is. She knew exactly what this was, so

718
00:35:26,154 --> 00:35:27,993
Speaker 2: although she won't in two weeks time.

719
00:35:31,194 --> 00:35:34,474
Speaker 4: Over the weekend and out, Louder made a various observation

720
00:35:34,714 --> 00:35:36,954
Speaker 4: in the group that I have been desperate to discuss

721
00:35:37,074 --> 00:35:41,274
Speaker 4: with you both. She said, big fan of Heveya's content,

722
00:35:41,394 --> 00:35:43,714
Speaker 4: but she said it is centered around his kids.

723
00:35:43,754 --> 00:35:47,274
Speaker 3: He's got four daughters. Do we feel differently.

724
00:35:46,914 --> 00:35:50,954
Speaker 4: About fathers who share their kids online as opposed to mothers?

725
00:35:51,074 --> 00:35:54,594
Speaker 4: So a previous winner of Creator of the Year is

726
00:35:54,714 --> 00:35:57,634
Speaker 4: Indi Clinton. She has three kids and she shares a

727
00:35:57,634 --> 00:36:01,354
Speaker 4: lot about parenting. But there has been an increasing chorus

728
00:36:01,354 --> 00:36:05,034
Speaker 4: of criticism. It's getting louder and louder, particularly towards mothers

729
00:36:05,794 --> 00:36:10,913
Speaker 4: who share pictures videos of their kids online. Especially I

730
00:36:10,954 --> 00:36:13,274
Speaker 4: think in light of the upcoming social media band it's

731
00:36:13,354 --> 00:36:15,794
Speaker 4: kind of changed the tone a bit. But if you

732
00:36:15,794 --> 00:36:18,754
Speaker 4: go on Heveya's profile and read the comments and this

733
00:36:18,794 --> 00:36:21,473
Speaker 4: could be moderation, but you just don't see those types

734
00:36:21,474 --> 00:36:25,834
Speaker 4: of comments, right, what do we reckon? Are our standards

735
00:36:25,874 --> 00:36:27,994
Speaker 4: for men and women different?

736
00:36:28,234 --> 00:36:35,513
Speaker 1: Oh? I don't think so, and Father's let me think

737
00:36:35,594 --> 00:36:40,114
Speaker 1: about that. I mean, obviously I think they probably are.

738
00:36:40,154 --> 00:36:43,634
Speaker 1: But the question is why? And also the question is

739
00:36:43,634 --> 00:36:46,434
Speaker 1: is it something to do with the type of content

740
00:36:47,354 --> 00:36:49,754
Speaker 1: that dads share hair free?

741
00:36:50,834 --> 00:36:53,754
Speaker 2: Do you mean like funny songs.

742
00:36:54,114 --> 00:36:57,714
Speaker 1: Let's complaining about laundry or vomit or you know, things

743
00:36:57,754 --> 00:37:00,834
Speaker 1: like that and more? I saw on Haas six seven

744
00:37:00,914 --> 00:37:04,073
Speaker 1: six's page. That's not the right terminology, is it? As

745
00:37:04,194 --> 00:37:06,873
Speaker 1: Paige profile let's go profile on his profile that the

746
00:37:06,914 --> 00:37:09,914
Speaker 1: more recent content concerning his kids was a very cute

747
00:37:10,034 --> 00:37:12,993
Speaker 1: video of two of his daughters making a prank call

748
00:37:13,074 --> 00:37:17,474
Speaker 1: to their grandmother. Now that's extremely cute. It's also probably

749
00:37:17,474 --> 00:37:19,554
Speaker 1: not something that most moms are going to share. A

750
00:37:19,554 --> 00:37:24,194
Speaker 1: prank call is to her mother by her children.

751
00:37:24,274 --> 00:37:27,194
Speaker 4: We know what the comments are going to say, and

752
00:37:27,754 --> 00:37:30,393
Speaker 4: that's so the content for context if you've never come

753
00:37:30,434 --> 00:37:35,154
Speaker 4: across his account, is prank's scaring them, but like in

754
00:37:35,194 --> 00:37:37,834
Speaker 4: a really wholesome way, or like you know, he's got

755
00:37:38,034 --> 00:37:39,953
Speaker 4: a little girl who's eating cereal and he comes over

756
00:37:40,034 --> 00:37:43,034
Speaker 4: and starts eating it, and she's just bamboozled by.

757
00:37:43,034 --> 00:37:46,154
Speaker 1: Again, a mother would never do that. No, she's the

758
00:37:46,194 --> 00:37:47,594
Speaker 1: one pouring the cereal.

759
00:37:47,994 --> 00:37:53,634
Speaker 4: Very light and it is genuinely funny, like a very

760
00:37:53,794 --> 00:37:55,074
Speaker 4: very good context.

761
00:37:55,074 --> 00:37:57,473
Speaker 2: So there are quite a few of these guys on

762
00:37:57,514 --> 00:37:59,914
Speaker 2: the internet dad's having a good time with their kids

763
00:38:00,194 --> 00:38:03,954
Speaker 2: and making lots of muoler out of it, but with

764
00:38:04,234 --> 00:38:07,714
Speaker 2: seemingly little criticism. And I'm here for it. I think

765
00:38:07,754 --> 00:38:10,834
Speaker 2: that although we all know, and I'm sure that one

766
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:13,114
Speaker 2: of us has plenty of stats about it, it's not

767
00:38:13,194 --> 00:38:15,714
Speaker 2: great to show your kids all over social media. However,

768
00:38:16,594 --> 00:38:19,194
Speaker 2: if children are the center of your life and parenting

769
00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:23,154
Speaker 2: is most of your world, seeing content based around it

770
00:38:23,194 --> 00:38:26,234
Speaker 2: is really important. I think, like I just do. I

771
00:38:26,234 --> 00:38:29,674
Speaker 2: think that it reflects a reality, and ideally you want

772
00:38:29,874 --> 00:38:32,953
Speaker 2: a diverse section of that that shows the joy and

773
00:38:32,994 --> 00:38:36,074
Speaker 2: the fun and the frustration and the hardships, because that's

774
00:38:36,074 --> 00:38:38,794
Speaker 2: what parenting is, right, It's all those things. But these

775
00:38:38,834 --> 00:38:42,714
Speaker 2: guys are all what we know is Disneyland dads, And

776
00:38:42,754 --> 00:38:45,874
Speaker 2: there are plenty of mothers I know who are driven

777
00:38:46,154 --> 00:38:51,114
Speaker 2: crazy by this stuff because they're like, I'm there crying

778
00:38:51,394 --> 00:38:54,594
Speaker 2: on TikTok, not me personally crying on TikTok because my

779
00:38:54,714 --> 00:38:56,714
Speaker 2: child's having a meltdown and I'm trying to get them

780
00:38:56,714 --> 00:38:58,714
Speaker 2: to brush their teeth and go to school, and I'm

781
00:38:58,874 --> 00:39:02,874
Speaker 2: expressing the difficulty of that. And then the Disneyland dad

782
00:39:03,114 --> 00:39:05,794
Speaker 2: is just he's, you know, in the traditional model, he's

783
00:39:05,794 --> 00:39:07,594
Speaker 2: back from work and he's like, let's go to the

784
00:39:07,594 --> 00:39:09,754
Speaker 2: park kids, or I'm taking you all out this weekend.

785
00:39:09,834 --> 00:39:13,794
Speaker 2: It's particularly pervasive in separated families. The Disneyland dad idea

786
00:39:13,914 --> 00:39:16,274
Speaker 2: that dad's always a good time and mum's always doing

787
00:39:16,314 --> 00:39:20,154
Speaker 2: the hard work. And some of this content falls into

788
00:39:20,194 --> 00:39:25,634
Speaker 2: those stereotypical categories. But I think that ideally you've got both.

789
00:39:25,754 --> 00:39:28,114
Speaker 2: I don't think that all parenting content should just be

790
00:39:28,154 --> 00:39:30,634
Speaker 2: shiny and joyful and happy dances, because that's not what

791
00:39:30,674 --> 00:39:33,834
Speaker 2: parenting's like. But also we can all see the problems

792
00:39:33,834 --> 00:39:35,274
Speaker 2: with kids having meltdowns.

793
00:39:35,354 --> 00:39:40,074
Speaker 4: Yeah, or is this indicative of there's a lot of

794
00:39:40,154 --> 00:39:43,354
Speaker 4: stats about the division of millennial parenting and how millennial

795
00:39:43,394 --> 00:39:46,714
Speaker 4: dads are doing more parenting than you know, ever before

796
00:39:46,754 --> 00:39:47,274
Speaker 4: in history.

797
00:39:47,954 --> 00:39:50,634
Speaker 3: As it does get more equally a millennial dad.

798
00:39:52,874 --> 00:39:53,234
Speaker 1: Definitely.

799
00:39:53,314 --> 00:40:00,114
Speaker 4: While looking after, they're doing more parenting, spending more hands

800
00:40:00,114 --> 00:40:01,274
Speaker 4: on time with their kids.

801
00:40:01,354 --> 00:40:03,954
Speaker 3: It's not equal, let's not pretend it is. But is

802
00:40:03,994 --> 00:40:04,714
Speaker 3: it sort of.

803
00:40:04,674 --> 00:40:07,794
Speaker 4: Starting to get their domestic work, so it's another thing

804
00:40:07,914 --> 00:40:10,553
Speaker 4: and it's not fun to film. Yeah, exactly right, that's

805
00:40:10,594 --> 00:40:13,034
Speaker 4: not so fun to film. But as it gets more equal,

806
00:40:13,074 --> 00:40:15,714
Speaker 4: are we going to see dads share more and more

807
00:40:15,714 --> 00:40:19,274
Speaker 4: content Because even the meltdown or the getting your kid

808
00:40:19,354 --> 00:40:22,114
Speaker 4: to brush their teeth with hove might be experiencing that too.

809
00:40:22,154 --> 00:40:23,594
Speaker 4: He just chooses not to get his phone out and

810
00:40:23,634 --> 00:40:27,074
Speaker 4: film it, right, And so when I looked at his content,

811
00:40:27,354 --> 00:40:29,434
Speaker 4: I went, I've got no issue with people sharing images

812
00:40:29,474 --> 00:40:30,354
Speaker 4: of their kids online.

813
00:40:30,434 --> 00:40:31,433
Speaker 3: That's something that I just.

814
00:40:31,434 --> 00:40:35,473
Speaker 4: Go, I reckon, you love your kid more than I

815
00:40:35,554 --> 00:40:37,834
Speaker 4: love your kid, and I reckon, you know what's best

816
00:40:37,834 --> 00:40:40,074
Speaker 4: for your kid, Like I just trust you know your kids,

817
00:40:40,114 --> 00:40:42,473
Speaker 4: you know how comfortable they are with it. His kids

818
00:40:42,474 --> 00:40:44,754
Speaker 4: are also a little bit older. He has one who's

819
00:40:44,874 --> 00:40:48,954
Speaker 4: young like a toddler, but they're very consenting and involved

820
00:40:48,954 --> 00:40:51,314
Speaker 4: and know they're being filmed, which I think makes people

821
00:40:51,314 --> 00:40:55,554
Speaker 4: feel different. The content that I must say stops me

822
00:40:55,674 --> 00:40:59,194
Speaker 4: sometimes is when there is a child who appears not

823
00:40:59,234 --> 00:41:02,674
Speaker 4: to be enjoying being filmed. Often it's an adolescent who

824
00:41:02,794 --> 00:41:05,554
Speaker 4: is in the background. And I'm talking content creators. I

825
00:41:05,554 --> 00:41:07,954
Speaker 4: think it's very different if you're on a private profile.

826
00:41:07,594 --> 00:41:10,433
Speaker 1: But slent teenagers okay, on.

827
00:41:10,394 --> 00:41:13,194
Speaker 4: A way, every photo album is full of Salentine ages.

828
00:41:13,234 --> 00:41:14,274
Speaker 4: He didn't want their photo taken.

829
00:41:14,794 --> 00:41:16,554
Speaker 2: That I don't love, and I must say that.

830
00:41:17,514 --> 00:41:18,873
Speaker 4: And I guess I don't have an answer as to

831
00:41:18,914 --> 00:41:24,554
Speaker 4: how you talk about this stage of parenting, but meltdowns, screaming,

832
00:41:24,954 --> 00:41:26,634
Speaker 4: worst moments.

833
00:41:26,114 --> 00:41:27,234
Speaker 3: Getting the camera out.

834
00:41:27,674 --> 00:41:30,754
Speaker 4: I get it. I get that you need solidarity. I

835
00:41:30,834 --> 00:41:32,834
Speaker 4: get that you might feel like you need help you've

836
00:41:32,834 --> 00:41:34,794
Speaker 4: got no one to turn to. But I think about

837
00:41:34,794 --> 00:41:37,953
Speaker 4: the dignity of that child, and that sometimes does make

838
00:41:37,994 --> 00:41:38,634
Speaker 4: me uncomfortable.

839
00:41:38,634 --> 00:41:40,993
Speaker 1: And he doesn't do that. I agree with that, Jesse,

840
00:41:41,114 --> 00:41:44,433
Speaker 1: But I think Holly said something really important before that

841
00:41:44,514 --> 00:41:47,234
Speaker 1: I want to reiterate and highlight, which is you said

842
00:41:47,274 --> 00:41:52,553
Speaker 1: that people share this content both to feel less alone themselves,

843
00:41:52,794 --> 00:41:56,274
Speaker 1: but also it makes other people feel less alone. And

844
00:41:56,314 --> 00:41:58,594
Speaker 1: I'm a lot of it that has been lost in

845
00:41:58,634 --> 00:42:02,354
Speaker 1: the moral panic about sharing children online. As you said, Holly,

846
00:42:02,634 --> 00:42:05,314
Speaker 1: we have lots of stats and facts about why you

847
00:42:05,314 --> 00:42:08,794
Speaker 1: shouldn't be sharing your children online, say many experts, but

848
00:42:08,954 --> 00:42:11,674
Speaker 1: that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about

849
00:42:11,754 --> 00:42:14,274
Speaker 1: the fact that for many parents this is a bit

850
00:42:14,274 --> 00:42:17,354
Speaker 1: of a lifeline for them, both the posting and the

851
00:42:17,474 --> 00:42:20,754
Speaker 1: consuming of the content. And I'm wondering as more men

852
00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:25,354
Speaker 1: get into the act of public parenting sharenting online, maybe

853
00:42:25,394 --> 00:42:27,914
Speaker 1: we'll all calm down about it a little bit, because

854
00:42:27,954 --> 00:42:30,114
Speaker 1: when both men and women are doing it and it's

855
00:42:30,154 --> 00:42:34,354
Speaker 1: not just seen as something that women do, maybe we'll

856
00:42:34,394 --> 00:42:36,514
Speaker 1: all start to be a little bit more accepting of

857
00:42:36,554 --> 00:42:37,234
Speaker 1: the impulse.

858
00:42:37,634 --> 00:42:40,234
Speaker 2: I hope so, because one of the things that I

859
00:42:40,394 --> 00:42:42,393
Speaker 2: think is one of the reasons why women I mean,

860
00:42:42,394 --> 00:42:44,594
Speaker 2: and I know there are family lots of female family

861
00:42:44,594 --> 00:42:46,433
Speaker 2: creators out there who do lots of fun stuff on

862
00:42:46,474 --> 00:42:49,354
Speaker 2: the Internet, not suggesting that there aren't, but you are

863
00:42:49,434 --> 00:42:51,674
Speaker 2: more likely to see the stuff we were just talking about.

864
00:42:51,674 --> 00:42:53,954
Speaker 2: The meltdown. So I saw one from a very popular

865
00:42:53,994 --> 00:42:56,154
Speaker 2: family creator when I was before I came in here,

866
00:42:56,514 --> 00:42:59,954
Speaker 2: where she'd filmed herself taking the iPad off her I

867
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:02,473
Speaker 2: want to say, five year old and her five year

868
00:43:02,514 --> 00:43:05,433
Speaker 2: old having a full on meltdown about it and this

869
00:43:05,514 --> 00:43:08,873
Speaker 2: person had three million followers and it was uncomfortable to

870
00:43:08,874 --> 00:43:11,634
Speaker 2: watch for the reasons you've already spelled out, Jesse, but

871
00:43:11,914 --> 00:43:14,834
Speaker 2: also I think, I mean, I'm obviously way beyond that

872
00:43:14,874 --> 00:43:17,274
Speaker 2: stage now, but if I was back where I was once,

873
00:43:17,394 --> 00:43:20,794
Speaker 2: it would have made me feel really good, not good

874
00:43:20,834 --> 00:43:23,834
Speaker 2: like as in, haha, your life sucks like mine does that?

875
00:43:23,994 --> 00:43:26,634
Speaker 2: Like I thought I was the only terrible parent who

876
00:43:26,674 --> 00:43:28,714
Speaker 2: sometimes lets my kid have the iPad too long and

877
00:43:28,714 --> 00:43:31,354
Speaker 2: then I get punished for it by the awful meltdown

878
00:43:31,394 --> 00:43:32,993
Speaker 2: they have when I take it off them. It would

879
00:43:33,034 --> 00:43:35,674
Speaker 2: have made me feel less alone. And I think the

880
00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:39,393
Speaker 2: problem is if women's family content was all just like

881
00:43:39,474 --> 00:43:42,433
Speaker 2: Disneyland dadding like having great times doing challenges, a lot

882
00:43:42,474 --> 00:43:43,953
Speaker 2: of the commentary would be like, how do you have

883
00:43:43,994 --> 00:43:46,754
Speaker 2: time to learn dances with your children? Like my life

884
00:43:46,794 --> 00:43:48,553
Speaker 2: isn't that easy? Don't you have to get them to school?

885
00:43:48,594 --> 00:43:50,754
Speaker 2: Aren't you did it? Like the judgment that would come

886
00:43:50,794 --> 00:43:53,154
Speaker 2: at them and probably from other women that would be

887
00:43:53,714 --> 00:43:57,114
Speaker 2: along the lines of basically must be nice, would be overwhelming,

888
00:43:57,354 --> 00:44:01,074
Speaker 2: you know, And I think that that's interesting because I

889
00:44:01,114 --> 00:44:03,714
Speaker 2: hope that as more dads as sharing family content, I

890
00:44:03,754 --> 00:44:06,754
Speaker 2: hope they are doing it while they're actively parenting. I know,

891
00:44:06,914 --> 00:44:08,873
Speaker 2: you know. I was just thinking when you were talking

892
00:44:08,874 --> 00:44:11,234
Speaker 2: about that before, Jesse, that a hundred years ago and

893
00:44:11,274 --> 00:44:13,474
Speaker 2: my kids were babies. Brent took time off work to

894
00:44:13,514 --> 00:44:16,393
Speaker 2: do the first year of parental leave right, and he

895
00:44:16,514 --> 00:44:19,834
Speaker 2: used to make these ridiculous videos with the kids. He

896
00:44:19,914 --> 00:44:22,514
Speaker 2: did one of Matilda like dangling from a baby harness

897
00:44:22,514 --> 00:44:24,794
Speaker 2: with the music from Mission Impossible behind it, like do

898
00:44:24,994 --> 00:44:28,914
Speaker 2: do do do do? And he tickled himself so hard,

899
00:44:28,994 --> 00:44:32,474
Speaker 2: like weightlifting with babies, and he wasn't TikTok didn't exist.

900
00:44:33,194 --> 00:44:35,194
Speaker 2: And I know that some of my mother's group friends

901
00:44:35,194 --> 00:44:37,234
Speaker 2: would be like, how does he have time to do that?

902
00:44:37,354 --> 00:44:38,674
Speaker 1: And I was like, I.

903
00:44:38,674 --> 00:44:41,074
Speaker 2: Don't know, but it seems to be working for him.

904
00:44:41,314 --> 00:44:43,794
Speaker 2: But I feel like if that was a mom, she'd

905
00:44:43,834 --> 00:44:45,994
Speaker 2: be getting a lot of don't you have something better

906
00:44:46,034 --> 00:44:46,354
Speaker 2: to do?

907
00:44:46,714 --> 00:44:47,354
Speaker 3: Or is it just?

908
00:44:47,914 --> 00:44:51,594
Speaker 4: Can content be a form of play? And that's a

909
00:44:51,714 --> 00:44:54,913
Speaker 4: dopamine him, yeah, yeah, and a play for both. And

910
00:44:54,954 --> 00:44:58,913
Speaker 4: if they both appear to be enjoying themselves and there

911
00:44:58,954 --> 00:45:01,674
Speaker 4: just happens to be a camera there, then maybe we

912
00:45:01,754 --> 00:45:03,074
Speaker 4: are kind of comfortable with it.

913
00:45:03,154 --> 00:45:05,514
Speaker 2: I think as soon as your kids say stop, stop,

914
00:45:06,034 --> 00:45:08,034
Speaker 2: wonder what happens with you? I've got if you've just

915
00:45:08,074 --> 00:45:10,393
Speaker 2: won Content Creator of the Year of your kids say,

916
00:45:10,634 --> 00:45:13,114
Speaker 2: I don't wonder. Do any dances today, Danny, And he's like,

917
00:45:13,194 --> 00:45:16,354
Speaker 2: have you seen this trophy? Have you seen this trophy?

918
00:45:16,474 --> 00:45:17,634
Speaker 2: We will be dancing.

919
00:45:18,914 --> 00:45:19,274
Speaker 4: Well.

920
00:45:19,434 --> 00:45:21,794
Speaker 2: This has been fun. Friends. Thank you out louders for

921
00:45:21,874 --> 00:45:24,354
Speaker 2: having us in your ears. A reminder that you can

922
00:45:24,394 --> 00:45:27,954
Speaker 2: see this whole thing on YouTube and why wouldn't you

923
00:45:27,994 --> 00:45:30,473
Speaker 2: want to? We're just lovely to look at that at

924
00:45:30,514 --> 00:45:33,274
Speaker 2: all times. A massive thank you for being here with us,

925
00:45:33,274 --> 00:45:34,913
Speaker 2: and a massive thank you to our team for helping

926
00:45:34,994 --> 00:45:37,073
Speaker 2: us put the show together. Jesse, have we got something

927
00:45:37,074 --> 00:45:38,434
Speaker 2: to tell everybody? What are you wearing?

928
00:45:38,514 --> 00:45:42,393
Speaker 4: We have a very exciting announcement in the lead up

929
00:45:42,514 --> 00:45:45,274
Speaker 4: to Christmas, which is if you are watching us on

930
00:45:45,314 --> 00:45:47,594
Speaker 4: YouTube or if you've seen our social videos today, I

931
00:45:47,634 --> 00:45:51,473
Speaker 4: am wearing my Mummy out Loud T shirt right and

932
00:45:51,554 --> 00:45:55,794
Speaker 4: we have discounted our merch I believe till the sixth

933
00:45:55,794 --> 00:45:58,873
Speaker 4: of December, because if you order before then you will

934
00:45:58,874 --> 00:46:02,194
Speaker 4: get it in time for Christmas. So these T shirts,

935
00:46:02,234 --> 00:46:03,194
Speaker 4: which is the.

936
00:46:03,114 --> 00:46:05,114
Speaker 3: Only thing that's like covering my bump.

937
00:46:04,874 --> 00:46:07,274
Speaker 2: At the moment, you're modeling. The most popular design she

938
00:46:07,314 --> 00:46:09,194
Speaker 2: has a puffer fish on it. There are a few

939
00:46:09,194 --> 00:46:11,794
Speaker 2: different ones, but the poffer fish has proved most popular.

940
00:46:11,874 --> 00:46:13,913
Speaker 4: It's so good for like you know, when you want

941
00:46:13,914 --> 00:46:16,114
Speaker 4: a graphic printed tea to throw on to go to

942
00:46:16,114 --> 00:46:17,634
Speaker 4: the beach or whatever. It's just perfect and it's like

943
00:46:17,674 --> 00:46:20,874
Speaker 4: really good quality. Fifty bucks for a t shirt, twenty

944
00:46:20,954 --> 00:46:25,434
Speaker 4: dollars for a tote. These are with tots are like Chambra.

945
00:46:26,554 --> 00:46:30,393
Speaker 4: They are very fancy. They are the ultimate gift for

946
00:46:30,434 --> 00:46:32,473
Speaker 4: the out louder in your life. We often meet out

947
00:46:32,554 --> 00:46:35,154
Speaker 4: louders where they're with their mum, or they're with their friends,

948
00:46:35,234 --> 00:46:38,234
Speaker 4: or it's like a point of connection between people. Chris

949
00:46:38,314 --> 00:46:41,993
Speaker 4: Kringle gift, Christmas Day gift, whatever it is, Jump onto

950
00:46:41,994 --> 00:46:44,114
Speaker 4: our website. There is a link in our show notes

951
00:46:44,354 --> 00:46:46,834
Speaker 4: Mum may are out Loud Merch cheapest it's ever been

952
00:46:47,434 --> 00:46:51,634
Speaker 4: and yes, the sale is on right this second until December.

953
00:46:52,074 --> 00:46:54,714
Speaker 4: The sixth link in the show notes.

954
00:46:54,394 --> 00:46:55,714
Speaker 3: To shop Bye

955
00:47:00,514 --> 00:47:03,393
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on

956
00:47:03,434 --> 00:47:05,114
Speaker 2: which we've recorded this podcast.