WEBVTT - Miranda Kerr’s Money Tree & Karl’s ‘Martyr Strategy’ 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.520 Hello, and welcome out Louders to Mama Mia. Out loud 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:08.840 It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:09.920 twenty ninth of June. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.000 My name is Hollywayne Wright, I'm Claire Stephens. 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:13.880 And I'm Amelia Luster. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:19.200 Oh it's Amelia Leicester's birthday. And you may have noticed 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.319 this last week. I know some out louders did. But 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:23.720 one of the things we're doing to make Amelia Leicester 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.479 feel special is bring her boyfriend into the studio. That 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:28.760 is what's Simon. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.440 Baker, and he does make me podcast better. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.200 We replaced the creepy photo of Jesse with Simon Baker. 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:36.520 And how are you feeling? 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.760 I feel better about it. I feel a lot better 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:39.239 about it. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.680 We were talking last week, Amelia about how Stephen Bartlett 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:44.960 Diary of the CEO had three glasses of wine and 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.000 that reckoned he couldn't podcast for the rest of the week. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:48.440 How did your birthday drinks? 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:48.800 Yes? 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.240 Why? I think it was a mind over matter situation 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:53.880 because I did have birth to drinks last night. I 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.800 bought new friends and old friends together. Some of them 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.040 are out louders. I'll let them be the judge on 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.960 how the mingling of groups Wench, but I am not 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:03.520 hungover today. Amazing. 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:10.280 She's so much better than Stephen Parler. Well, we're going 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.920 to get to him. Here's what's on our agenda today. 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.920 Miranda Kerr and her billionaire husband just waived a magic 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.200 money wand and changed the lives of thousands of Americans. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.200 Amelia knows why. 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:27.720 Plus Karl Stefanovic's martyrdom strategy. Do we think it's going 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:29.919 to work? And where do we think he's going next? 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.840 And this is the week Taylor Swift is getting married, 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.440 and we have the New York Times verified details. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:42.160 But first, in case you missed it, it's tax time, friends, 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.240 and some people are delighted about that. Some people are 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.800 in an admin spiral. Some people are planning a shopping hall. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.600 King Charles obviously saw all the fun everyone has at 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.200 tax time and decided he wanted in. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.080 I bet he's gone to office works. He totally gets 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.240 some little snacky snow and a whiteboard. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.000 He has he totally has because for the first time ever, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.920 senior royals are revealing their tax returns. Right to be clear, 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.560 they don't have to, so royals don't even have to 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.000 pay tax, but they the Queen changed the game on 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.480 that and started paying tax back in nineteen ninety three, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.600 but they've never had to declare how much or have 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.600 it made public. But Charles, we've talked about this on 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.240 the show a lot. Charles and William keep saying that 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.920 they're going to change things, that they want more transparency 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:32.920 in the royal family. That they know people are a 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.760 bit suss about all those houses they've gotten who they 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.320 let stay in them, like their dodgy relatives have some 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.720 dodgy connections. So they have released their tax returns and 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.920 just like mine, King Charles reveals that last year he 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.680 paid twelve point nine million pounds in tax. That is 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.320 nearly twenty five million Aussie dollars. Well, it sounds like 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:55.400 a lot of money. 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.120 Right, Yeah, seems like he's keeping the economy of flying. 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.360 The thing about all this is, though, is that so 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.400 royals pay tax on their earnings and they earn money 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.640 from basically the land they own. So Charles, most of 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.399 Charles's money comes from something called the Duchy of Lancaster, 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.760 which is like a big parcel of land and businesses 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.400 that are on that land and rents that get paid 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.760 for properties on that land, and so he gets income 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:21.400 from all that, and that's what he pays tax on. 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.119 But then on the other hand, the royals also get 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.440 given money by the government, so it's like they give 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.120 the governments money and they get money from the government. 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:31.680 So they're basically welfare queens. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.160 They basically are. And also the government pays them for 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.160 some of the money that they're then giving back to 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.000 the government, if you see what I mean. So for example, 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.400 there's a big prison on some of the royal land 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.040 and the government pays millions of pounds to rent that 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.480 prison from them, and then Charles pays tax back on it. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:50.680 Do you know what I mean? It sounds like some 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.560 kind of boomerash tax scandal. I don't know, but for 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.040 the first time we know exactly how much money they're 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:57.320 all in. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.440 I do wonder what he is allow to tax deduct 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.520 with his accountant, Crowns gin what else, Like just think 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.040 synonymous with being King Charles Dilotines. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:16.600 Yeah, I'm interested in why he's getting money from the government. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:18.440 That doesn't feel like that good. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.799 So here's the thing is, their royal family gets money 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.080 from the government to keep things going. So this year 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.720 they're going to get one hundred million pounds to like 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.520 renovate an old palace, sort this out, sort that out, 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.760 keep the royalness of Britain going. So they get money 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.920 from the government, they charge the government for things, and 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.200 they pay back money to the government. So it's a very. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.720 This is the thing I understand transparency. I think that's lovely. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.000 I would also like to know more details, like about 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.400 his tax return documents, like like what he is claiming, 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.240 what holidays, counters, work travel, et cetera. I guess he'd 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.760 be able to claim everything, because it's like he's always 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.279 do you know what I mean, Like, you know, Holly, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.760 if we go on a trip, we could be like 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.960 we went to a book shop and signed a book, 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.159 so therefore we can do I don't do that on 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.640 my tax return, so that's why I can make a 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.760 joke about it, like you could kind of claim it 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.120 as a work thing. But he's he's always king, and. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:24.040 He's always speaking all the time, and he famously used 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.080 to have whether or not he still does, we're not sure. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.280 But when he was Prince Charles and like a bit 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.760 of a young man about town, he used to always 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.360 travel with an equerry who would make his martinis for 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.400 him and carry them around a party, and he also 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.240 always had someone to squeeze the toothpaste onto his toothbrush 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:41.200 wherever he was. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.200 That can't be real, so surely it's definitely real. 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.560 So those that would all be taxtadtable Martini guy, toothpaste 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.880 guy carry. There was even in Tina Brown's Palace paper 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:53.880 books there was talk about sometimes if you'd go to 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.120 a country house, and again I'm sure that things have changed, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.880 she said generously. He would insist if he was going 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.719 to stay at some fancy person's country house, that a 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.279 bed was brought in for him, his bed, his pictures 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.360 on the wall. So then there's bedroom guy for pillar fluffing. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.080 Guy, soft toy guy as well. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.960 Didn't he need to in a particular combos soft toys. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.279 So there's a lot of people employed to make sure 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.159 that the king and the princes and everybody can feel 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.919 important enough. But this is apparently what William was going 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.000 to unpick. So a lot of people might be out 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.200 of work for not squeezing toothpaste anymore. And I don't know, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:30.400 I'm up in arms about that. 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:31.719 I'd like to see AI do that. 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:35.839 In a statement at the end of last week, the 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.000 Nine Network announced that Karl Stefanovic, who has hosted the 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.680 Today Show for more than twenty years, would leave his 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:46.120 role immediately. It followed days of controversy after Karl used 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:51.320 his independent podcast to interview British far right activist Tommy Robinson, 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.600 best known as a co founder of the English Defense 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.599 League and anti Islam movement established in two thousand and nine. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.120 Tommy has also been to prison several times and has 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.800 been convicted of several crimes such as assault, mortgage fraud 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.680 and contemptive court a bit of a rap sheet. In 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:11.760 two thousand and five, he lost his job as an 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.600 apprentice engineer when he was jailed for assaulting an off 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:20.120 duty police officer. He then started his street activism as 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.000 a member of the fascist British National Party. He styles 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.160 himself as a bit of an independent journalist and that 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.680 is a claim that Stefanovic didn't challenge during their hour 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:36.120 long interview, despite Robinson's frequent involvement in violent unrest and 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:42.280 peddling of misinformation online. Robinson has also shared graphic footage 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.320 of a stabbing attack in Belfast allegedly carried out by 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.680 a Sudanese born suspect, and then he promoted rallies which 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.160 devolved into violent attacks on migrants and the burning of homes. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.960 His content was singled out by police as playing a 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.680 significant role in the radicalization of the terrorist behind the 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.960 twin seventeen Finsbury Park Mosk attack, and generally his content 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.040 is understood to have a lot of hate speech about Muslims. 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:13.960 He's been denied in Australian visa twice and has a 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.840 very transparent hatred of the media. He's been convicted for 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.800 stalking and threatening a string of journalists in late night 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:25.920 visits to their homes. So overall not a great guy. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.080 This is who Karl has his arm around at the 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.320 beginning of the interview and who he conducted the conversation 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.880 with in a very matey tone. Stefanovic also praised Robinson 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.160 for his tenacity and courage and signed off with I 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.040 love you mate. On Thursday, Maya and Holly dropped a 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.839 bonusm Maya Out Loud episode unpacking the news of Karl's 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.600 departure from nine. That was the moment that we knew 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:56.600 it was official. But since then, he's posted a viral 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.760 farewell message on social media defending his choice of podcast 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:06.400 interviewees and sounding relieved that he is finally free and 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.160 truly independent. Here's a bit of that message. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.120 So here's what I believe in the public deserve to 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.800 hear perspectives. This country was built by hard working assies 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.400 from all around the world, and they were bound by 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.080 the same values but very different experiences. So on my show, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.880 I've spoken to people who have different perspectives. I know 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.640 that why and some people up. Sometimes I agree with 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:36.280 everything against says, sometimes I don't. But importantly, you get 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.440 to make up your mind. You have the right to 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.920 hear from different voices. Freedom of speech here and around 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:45.560 the world is what this show is about. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.679 I just can't wait to be free of my multimillion 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.760 dollar contract. I know, it's all I want in life. 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:53.080 I know. 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:58.160 I think he's been very shackled and now he is 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.400 free of being paid that much. Over the weekend, there 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:05.360 seem to be two camps emerging. There are those who 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.480 now see Karl as a symbol of free speech and 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.360 supporting him is basically saying, yeah, this is ridiculous. We 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.960 can be trusted to make up our own minds. And 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.240 there are those who are cynical about this well trodden 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:24.000 strategy of leaning into controversy and then building independent media 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.800 on the back of it. Holly, does this feel reminiscent 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.040 of some other big names in media. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.000 Absolutely, this is a it's become over the last few years, 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.920 a really well trodden path for particularly in America and 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:45.480 the UK, for mainstream media people. So Piers Morgan is 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.240 a good example right in the UK. So Piers Morgan 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.480 former newspaper editor, and he prides himself on grilling people, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.640 which is not something that Karl is doing. Has to 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.240 be said on his podcast, at least not at the moment. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.440 Maybe he will do more of that. But Piers Morgan 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:06.559 was a very mainstream media figure and controversial in a way. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.280 But he famously left TV in Britain in a huff 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.240 after he had a fight on air with a colleague 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.240 about Megan Markle. His views about Megan Markle a kind 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.720 of be on the pale. But anyway, he huffed off 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.560 and he went to work for Murdoch for a while, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.600 making a sort of TV talk show on YouTube for Murdoch. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.200 But now he has set up his own media company 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.240 and it's called, of course Uncensored because he's not no 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.800 longer censored. He can say what he wants, and he's 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.000 built it from one show to three. So there's there's 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.840 a history, there's his main show, his opinion show, there's 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.000 a history show now, there's a royal show now, and 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.000 you can expect that to probably grow. In the US. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.880 Tucker Carlson did this, Megan Kelly did this. Less well 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.200 known media names have also done it, where they've said, 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:54.920 I don't want to work for the New York Times anymore, 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.920 Barry Weiss, I don't want to work for whatever because 0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.920 I'm censored in what I can say. I'm going to 0:11:59.960 --> 0:12:02.440 go off and build my own. Louis c K, Yes, 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.640 Louis c K. Even Russell Brand, you could argue, you know, 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.040 has definitely done this. So we live in a very 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.160 different media landscape than the one that the likes of 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.560 Carl came up in, and some of us are obviously 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.600 a bit more aware of that than others, because some 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.840 people saw the firing and inverted commas of Carl and 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.920 we're kind of like, oh, no, he's been fired. But 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.840 it's quite apparent that Carl wanted this. There is no 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.840 it was untenable for him to keep doing what he 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.640 was doing over here on his own independent podcast and 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.000 still be smiling and interviewing the Prime Minister on Today Show, 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:39.440 sitting next to Serah. But every day that was just 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.480 becoming untenable. The Tommy Robinson decision, it needs to be 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.240 clear that has that's considered beyond the pale in Britain, 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.200 it's considered beyond the pale everywhere. You know, the far 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.319 right Party of Britain, Reform UK, they will have nothing 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.680 to do with Tommy Robinson, like he is a really 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:02.600 out there marginalized figure. So making that particular decision was 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.760 very red ragtable in terms of I don't know how 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.959 you can you can expect to keep a mainstream job 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.400 if you've done that, particularly in the way that he's 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.479 done it, which is not a grilling, not a prosecution 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.520 of ideas, but a mate sit down. And particularly that 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.120 social video I think was one of the things that 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:26.240 really really made that clear that he was It just 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.040 wasn't possible for nine any more to keep him on staff. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.360 And I think that detail about Tommy Robinson is really 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:37.560 important because when I first saw we talked about it 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.440 Holly before we talked about it on the show, about 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.400 what it looked like he might lose his job, and 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.760 I think a lot of us had never heard that 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.240 name before Tommy Robinson. And you think, well, there are 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.040 a lot of provocative people online who say all sorts 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.400 of things, and just because you interview somebody doesn't mean 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.840 you endorse everything. There there's that argument that a lot 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:07.439 of people are leaning into. But this particular person having 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:12.200 him on your show and not having a critical eye 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.240 at all, I think you're exactly right. It was orchestrated 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.320 that you can't do that and then go sit. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.440 On the Today So to beic clear, and I mean, 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.680 as you said, Mia and I had a conversation about 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.520 this on Thursday, and I urge everyone to go listen 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.200 to it because Mia obviously has some really interesting insights 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.240 into this. She not only owns a media company, co 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.160 owns a media company, but she used to work with Carl, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:35.640 worked at the Today Show and all these things, so 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:40.400 she has really really good knowledge about this. But it's true, 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:45.120 of course that you know, particularly an independent media world, 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.880 you can sit down with whoever you want. Platforming doesn't 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.960 always mean endorsement. But there is a very specific pattern 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.280 in the way that Carl has decided to go with 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.920 his guests on his show, which is in one very 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.640 strong political direction. He has thrown his hat literally because 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.080 he wears a big hat in all the answer for 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.680 his show. He's thrown his hat in that ring. It's 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.040 a little disingenuous to be saying, oh, I want to 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.240 hear all different perspectives when it seems that actually most 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.160 of the guests that you're having all have one same perspective. 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.600 Yeah, and also you don't hear Sarah Ferguson or Lee 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.480 sales and interviews with controversial figures with the sign off 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.400 of love you mate. Like, that's just not what serious 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:31.000 journalists do when they're interviewing someone, especially someone controversial. To me, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:36.120 I just the cynicism of this is just gobsmacking. I 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.080 went to the source. I didn't want to watch the 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.880 Tommy Robinson interview because life is too short. I watched 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.680 the Holly Valance interview. Now, Holly Valance had a hit 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.360 single back in the early two thousands called Kiss Kiss, 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.280 which had a very risky music video, and she has 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.520 now turned into I think she would describe herself this 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.960 way as an advocate for right wing slash conservative causes 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.160 in the UK. She was married to a billionaire called 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.200 Nick Candy, a property developer for a time. They are 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:13.120 now divorced, and she says to Karl that she is 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.680 now a stay at home by occupation, but like I said, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.480 she's also involved in politics. So I wanted to see 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.680 how he conducts one of these interviews on his podcast. 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.680 And I should say that, like most Australians, I used 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.400 to find Kyl so charming, Like he is just a 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.040 very charming, charismatic individual and that's why he's been so 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.120 successful in media. And he's a great interviewer too. But 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.080 what became a parent watching this interview with Holly Valance 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:44.520 is that all he wanted from Holly was controversial soundbites 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.800 that would catapult him into the headlines. And to Holly's credit, 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.200 Holly was not in the business of promoting Carl. She 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.640 wanted to talk about what she wanted to talk about, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.360 and she didn't want to be goaded into saying things 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.440 that may or may not represent what she actually thinks 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.520 just so that he can get more famous. So at 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.919 various points in the interview, he keeps saying to her 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.119 she's spoken out in the past about how she thinks 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.879 that immigration numbers are too high in the UK. He 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.400 kept pushing on that because he wanted her to say 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.920 something that would get headlines, and she wouldn't do it 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.680 because even she someone who was sympathetic to the point 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.000 of view that he's putting forward, even she could see 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.280 that this is just the Carl Show. This is him 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.800 just trying to get controversy and upset people for the 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:27.720 sake of his own brand. 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.560 To be clear, Holly Valance has also been done to 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.080 hang out with Tommy Robinson. Like I think again, the 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.120 pattern of the guests he's choosing is very sure. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.360 But I think you're right, Amelia. He's going for this 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:47.520 rage babyge. He's trying to jump on the hate train 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:53.199 to get views and monetize what he's doing, and so 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:58.400 the idea that he's therefore been persecuted seems absurd. There's 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.840 an Australian actor and director called Damon Gamo and he 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:06.600 shared he basically shared the playbook on Instagram, which I 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.760 found really interesting. He said, Carl's just deployed a tactic 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.240 that is sometimes called the martyrdom or persecution strategy. It's 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.560 been used by figures on both the left and right 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.159 of politics, which I really agree with. You see it 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.880 you see it on both sides, he wrote. Step one, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.960 deliberately violate a social norm by interviewing a controversial figure, 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:30.000 for example. Step two, generate public backlash. Critics condemn ideally 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:35.159 an employer pushes back. Step three, reframe the backlash as persecution. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.280 You post on socials, you tag Elon, You thank him 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.440 for being a bastion of free speech. Step four strengthen 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.920 group identity and grow your audience, and then position yourself 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.320 as someone who tells uncomfortable truths and you encourage subscriptions 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.360 hunt to whatever you're doing. This is exactly what he's done, 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.280 and I find it Carl in that video where he's 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:04.199 talking about finally being free, he really is appealing to 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.920 the ego of the people who are on his side, saying, 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.239 you're smart enough to make up your own mind. You 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.480 don't have to listen to it. He's kind of there 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.040 are people who are like, yeah, yeah, I am I 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.960 am smart. I can listen to this and decide whether 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.960 or not it's for me. And I think there is 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.600 also an important point to be made about when people 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:36.520 go independent, the danger of that. So when you are 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.440 hosting the Today Show, you're working for the nine network, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.359 and there are all sorts of problems with mainstream media 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.600 as well that you can have agendas all of that, 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.600 but when you go fully on your own, you have 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:54.400 no one to hold you to account to maybe ask questions, you. 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:54.840 Have no. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.960 Very very senior producer, maybe say hey, so this is 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:08.200 the reason people don't interview Tommy Robinson. You don't have 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:15.200 the kind of journalistic code of ethics or the journalistic standards. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.520 So in Australia, if ma'm Maya does something wrong, if 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.840 Sidney Morning Herald does something wrong, you can right to 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:29.920 like like Journalistic Standards Board and file a complaint. If 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:35.119 an independent journalist does that, there's no kind of mode 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.360 to challenge it because they're just doing their own thing. 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.680 The thing that's tricky because it's absolutely right that by 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.200 nine letting go, letting Carl go, they've created something of 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.520 a martist storyline for him, no question, and you know 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.480 there have been other examples of this, you know, but 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.600 the sort of letting someone go and then that becoming 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.960 part of their narrative that allows them to rise to 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:00.280 a certain level is tricky because the alternative is also 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.119 really hard. I was talking to me about this on 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.080 Thursdays at where I said, why couldn't Nine in a 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.240 way just hold their nerve because Carl was on a 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.240 one year extension on his contract. So in theory you 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.440 could like hold your breath till December and maybe until 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:19.040 the Tommy Robinson red flag, as I say, happened they 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.200 were there would have been lots of talks. There had 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.840 been a campaign had started from mad fucking Witches, who 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.800 are a pressure group who get together and pressure advertisers 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.440 on networks. This has been part of Kyle Sandaland's story 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.840 for a really long time, saying why are you employing 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.400 this person? Why are you advertising on this show? Right? 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.840 And so in a way you think when I saw 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.320 that Nine were going to fire in inverted commas Karl. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.600 Although they've made it clear both sides that they're not calling. 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.480 It that, No, they're making it sound like in a 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:50.920 mutual agreement. 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:52.840 There was a bit of me, as someone who's resistant 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.880 to that Mader narrative, that's like, oh, you've just made it. 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.240 You've just given him more credibility and standing in doing that, 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.760 written this free speech script. But in truth, there didn't 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.000 really have much option because it's such an outrageous thing 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.520 to do. To be seen walking down the street with 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:11.400 your arm around a guy who isn't even allowed into 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.439 Australia because his views are considered so extremely dangerous and 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:18.760 violent that the pressure that was going to come to 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:20.800