1 00:00:10,574 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,134 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:19,054 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:21,254 --> 00:00:21,414 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:21,574 --> 00:00:24,854 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, 6 00:00:24,894 --> 00:00:28,454 Speaker 1: The Quickie. US President Donald Trump told the world through 7 00:00:28,494 --> 00:00:31,374 Speaker 1: his speech at Charlie Kirk's memorial on Monday that they'd 8 00:00:31,374 --> 00:00:34,654 Speaker 1: found an answer to something that impacts an estimated more 9 00:00:34,694 --> 00:00:38,054 Speaker 1: than sixty one million people and their loved ones worldwide. 10 00:00:38,374 --> 00:00:42,054 Speaker 3: I think we found an answer to autism. How about 11 00:00:42,054 --> 00:00:47,174 Speaker 3: that autism? Tomorrow we're going to be talking the Oval 12 00:00:47,174 --> 00:00:51,614 Speaker 3: Office in the White House about autism, how it happens, 13 00:00:52,454 --> 00:00:54,094 Speaker 3: so we won't let it happen anymore. 14 00:00:54,774 --> 00:00:59,494 Speaker 1: Yesterday announced alongside his controversial Health Secretary RFK Junior, that 15 00:00:59,534 --> 00:01:03,134 Speaker 1: the cause of autism is paracetamol. So what does this 16 00:01:03,294 --> 00:01:06,134 Speaker 1: mean for pregnant women? And just how accurate are the 17 00:01:06,134 --> 00:01:09,294 Speaker 1: findings they're basing this announcement on before we delve into this. 18 00:01:09,614 --> 00:01:12,654 Speaker 1: He's the latest from the Quickie Newsroom. Wednesday, September twenty four, 19 00:01:13,054 --> 00:01:16,254 Speaker 1: The White House has confirmed that Prime Minister Anthony Albernizi 20 00:01:16,334 --> 00:01:19,454 Speaker 1: will meet with US President Donald Trump next month. There 21 00:01:19,534 --> 00:01:21,814 Speaker 1: was an expectation that the leaders would meet on the 22 00:01:21,854 --> 00:01:24,614 Speaker 1: sidelines of a summit they were both attending, but back 23 00:01:24,654 --> 00:01:27,254 Speaker 1: in June at the G seven meeting in Canada, Trump 24 00:01:27,254 --> 00:01:30,534 Speaker 1: cut his time short in order to address escalating hostilities 25 00:01:30,534 --> 00:01:33,694 Speaker 1: between Iran and Israel. The two are currently attending the 26 00:01:33,814 --> 00:01:36,814 Speaker 1: UN General Assembly in New York, but the PM's offers 27 00:01:36,814 --> 00:01:39,614 Speaker 1: told journalists that they didn't expect a meeting there, and 28 00:01:39,654 --> 00:01:42,254 Speaker 1: with Trump's well win twenty four hour attendants, there didn't 29 00:01:42,254 --> 00:01:44,374 Speaker 1: seem to be any room for it. But the White 30 00:01:44,374 --> 00:01:47,174 Speaker 1: House has confirmed that a meeting will happen in October, 31 00:01:47,334 --> 00:01:51,054 Speaker 1: which Albernizi will attend in person in Washington. In his 32 00:01:51,134 --> 00:01:54,094 Speaker 1: speech to the UN General Assembly, US President Donald Trump 33 00:01:54,174 --> 00:01:58,254 Speaker 1: has condemned moves by Western powers to recognize a Palestinian state. 34 00:01:58,694 --> 00:02:01,974 Speaker 1: Trump says such steps would reward horrible atrocities by the 35 00:02:02,014 --> 00:02:05,654 Speaker 1: Palestinian militant group hum Us, calling instead for world powers 36 00:02:05,694 --> 00:02:08,414 Speaker 1: to focus on securing the release of hostages held in 37 00:02:08,414 --> 00:02:11,414 Speaker 1: Gaza nearly two two years after Hamas seized them in 38 00:02:11,454 --> 00:02:15,254 Speaker 1: the deadly attack that triggered the Gaza War. France, Britain, Canada, 39 00:02:15,294 --> 00:02:19,134 Speaker 1: Australia and Portugal have all recognized a Palestinian state in 40 00:02:19,174 --> 00:02:21,694 Speaker 1: the past two days. Their moves were born out of 41 00:02:21,694 --> 00:02:25,414 Speaker 1: frustration with Israel over its offensive in Gaza and intended 42 00:02:25,414 --> 00:02:28,574 Speaker 1: to promote a two state solution, but have angered Israel 43 00:02:28,614 --> 00:02:31,654 Speaker 1: and its close ally the United States. Calling for the 44 00:02:31,694 --> 00:02:34,094 Speaker 1: release of all living hostages and the bodies of those 45 00:02:34,094 --> 00:02:37,014 Speaker 1: who've died in captivity, Trump said, we have to stop 46 00:02:37,054 --> 00:02:39,774 Speaker 1: the war in Gaza immediately. We have to stop it 47 00:02:39,894 --> 00:02:43,014 Speaker 1: to get it done. The two state solution, the existence 48 00:02:43,014 --> 00:02:45,974 Speaker 1: of both in Israeli and a Palestinian state, was the 49 00:02:46,014 --> 00:02:48,814 Speaker 1: basis of the US backed peace process at the nineteen 50 00:02:48,894 --> 00:02:51,934 Speaker 1: ninety three oslo A Cords, but the process has all 51 00:02:51,974 --> 00:02:55,614 Speaker 1: but died, Israel's government declaring there will be no Palestinian 52 00:02:55,654 --> 00:02:58,814 Speaker 1: state as it fights Hamas in Gaza following the October 53 00:02:58,854 --> 00:03:02,814 Speaker 1: seven attack. Israel, in turn, has drawn global condemnation over 54 00:03:02,854 --> 00:03:05,654 Speaker 1: its military conduct in Gaza, where more than sixty five 55 00:03:05,734 --> 00:03:08,974 Speaker 1: thousand Palestinians have been killed. A meal and a drink 56 00:03:09,014 --> 00:03:11,334 Speaker 1: at Sydney Airport finally led to the arrest of the 57 00:03:11,374 --> 00:03:14,454 Speaker 1: man known as the night Stalker or the moor Park Rapist. 58 00:03:14,854 --> 00:03:17,854 Speaker 1: At least ten women reported being assaulted in Sydney's Moor 59 00:03:17,894 --> 00:03:20,974 Speaker 1: Park in Inner West areas between nineteen ninety one and 60 00:03:21,054 --> 00:03:24,654 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, prompting an investigation into the night Stalker, 61 00:03:24,934 --> 00:03:27,414 Speaker 1: but the trail ran cold and New South Wales Police 62 00:03:27,454 --> 00:03:30,974 Speaker 1: disbanded its task force in July nineteen ninety three after 63 00:03:31,014 --> 00:03:35,014 Speaker 1: eliminating all suspects. Nearly three decades later, a strike force 64 00:03:35,134 --> 00:03:37,694 Speaker 1: was established that linked four of the sexual assaults to 65 00:03:37,734 --> 00:03:41,774 Speaker 1: a single male DNA profile. A national database search returned 66 00:03:41,814 --> 00:03:46,014 Speaker 1: a familial match, leading police to Funeral director Glengarry Cameron. 67 00:03:46,534 --> 00:03:48,774 Speaker 1: After the Alice Springs resident finished his meal at a 68 00:03:48,774 --> 00:03:52,574 Speaker 1: Sydney International Airport restaurant in January twenty twenty four, police 69 00:03:52,614 --> 00:03:56,214 Speaker 1: officers grabbed his fork and glass for forensic analysis. The 70 00:03:56,294 --> 00:03:58,694 Speaker 1: DNA was deemed to be a match and Cameron was 71 00:03:58,774 --> 00:04:01,734 Speaker 1: arrested when he returned to Australia. The sixty one year 72 00:04:01,774 --> 00:04:04,534 Speaker 1: old on Tuesday faced the Downing Centre Local Court, where 73 00:04:04,574 --> 00:04:07,934 Speaker 1: he admitted to raping and indecently assaulting the women while 74 00:04:07,974 --> 00:04:10,654 Speaker 1: wielding a variety of knives which he held against their 75 00:04:10,654 --> 00:04:14,854 Speaker 1: skin and threatened to use. Cameron pleaded guilty to thirteen charges, 76 00:04:15,134 --> 00:04:18,574 Speaker 1: with another fourteen to be taken into consideration when he's sentenced. 77 00:04:19,414 --> 00:04:22,374 Speaker 1: James Vanderbeek made a surprise appearance at the Dawson's Creek 78 00:04:22,414 --> 00:04:25,254 Speaker 1: reunion after having to drop out due to illness. The 79 00:04:25,294 --> 00:04:29,014 Speaker 1: forty eight year old actor, who's battling stage three colorectal cancer, 80 00:04:29,294 --> 00:04:31,734 Speaker 1: had made his apologies for missing the event, where the 81 00:04:31,814 --> 00:04:34,694 Speaker 1: cast reunited for a live reading of the pilot episode 82 00:04:34,694 --> 00:04:37,574 Speaker 1: to raise money for cancer research, due to suffering from 83 00:04:37,614 --> 00:04:40,694 Speaker 1: two stomach viruses, but he shocked fans at the Richard 84 00:04:40,734 --> 00:04:42,894 Speaker 1: Rogers Theater in New York when he made a virtual 85 00:04:42,934 --> 00:04:45,654 Speaker 1: appearance in a pre recorded video. He said, I've been 86 00:04:45,694 --> 00:04:48,214 Speaker 1: looking forward to this night for months and months, ever 87 00:04:48,254 --> 00:04:51,094 Speaker 1: since my angel, Michelle Williams said she was putting it together. 88 00:04:51,454 --> 00:04:53,694 Speaker 1: He said, I can't believe I'm not there. I can't 89 00:04:53,694 --> 00:04:56,214 Speaker 1: believe I don't get to see my castmates, my beautiful 90 00:04:56,254 --> 00:04:59,134 Speaker 1: cast in person. He thanked the show's fans and then 91 00:04:59,254 --> 00:05:02,494 Speaker 1: introduced his understudy for the event, joking it was definitely 92 00:05:02,494 --> 00:05:05,854 Speaker 1: an upgrade on him. As Hamilton star Lynn Manuel Miranda 93 00:05:05,894 --> 00:05:10,374 Speaker 1: appeared on stage. Former Dawson's cast mates Katie Holmes, Joshua Jackson, 94 00:05:10,414 --> 00:05:13,694 Speaker 1: and Busy Phillips joined Michelle Williams for the event. That's 95 00:05:13,694 --> 00:05:16,894 Speaker 1: what's happening in the world today. Next, Trump linked paracetamol 96 00:05:17,014 --> 00:05:20,414 Speaker 1: use in expectant mothers to autism. And now we have 97 00:05:20,454 --> 00:05:23,294 Speaker 1: another thing to worry about. But what studies were used 98 00:05:23,294 --> 00:05:27,294 Speaker 1: to link these two together and how reliable is that information. 99 00:05:30,254 --> 00:05:30,734 Speaker 4: Effective? 100 00:05:30,774 --> 00:05:34,414 Speaker 5: Immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians at the use 101 00:05:34,454 --> 00:05:41,814 Speaker 5: of asset menifen acetamenofen, which is basically commonly known as 102 00:05:41,934 --> 00:05:46,374 Speaker 5: thailand oil during pregnancy, can be associated with a very 103 00:05:46,774 --> 00:05:50,774 Speaker 5: increased risk of autism. So taking tail and oil is. 104 00:05:52,614 --> 00:05:53,534 Speaker 4: Not good. 105 00:05:54,094 --> 00:05:57,014 Speaker 1: That was a message from US President Donald Trump yesterday 106 00:05:57,054 --> 00:05:59,974 Speaker 1: as he announced a link between increasing rates of diagnosed 107 00:06:00,014 --> 00:06:02,414 Speaker 1: autism in the US to the use of the drug 108 00:06:02,534 --> 00:06:06,254 Speaker 1: thailandol by pregnant women. It's commonly used to relieve pain 109 00:06:06,294 --> 00:06:08,814 Speaker 1: and fever. The drug which you'll hear being called a 110 00:06:08,894 --> 00:06:11,574 Speaker 1: set of minifre and its generic name we call here 111 00:06:11,574 --> 00:06:16,854 Speaker 1: in Australia paracetamol, the most commonly taken painkiller in the world. 112 00:06:17,414 --> 00:06:20,334 Speaker 1: Trump suggested women who are dealing with a fever simply 113 00:06:20,374 --> 00:06:22,934 Speaker 1: tough it out, and if they can't, maybe you will 114 00:06:22,934 --> 00:06:25,334 Speaker 1: have to get taylanol, but only in the case of 115 00:06:25,414 --> 00:06:29,094 Speaker 1: extremely high fever and only if you can't tough it out. 116 00:06:30,014 --> 00:06:32,854 Speaker 1: The head of the US Health Department, RFK Junior, had 117 00:06:32,854 --> 00:06:36,254 Speaker 1: promised to reveal the cause of autism before September, as 118 00:06:36,294 --> 00:06:38,334 Speaker 1: well as what can be done to cure it. The 119 00:06:38,414 --> 00:06:40,934 Speaker 1: answer to that, they said, is another drug called luc 120 00:06:40,974 --> 00:06:44,294 Speaker 1: of orn a folinic acid. So what does the science 121 00:06:44,334 --> 00:06:47,974 Speaker 1: actually say? Medical experts have taken to the Internet to 122 00:06:48,014 --> 00:06:51,934 Speaker 1: explain that autism is an incredibly complex condition that has 123 00:06:51,934 --> 00:06:54,774 Speaker 1: a strong genetic link, with more than one hundred related 124 00:06:54,814 --> 00:06:58,054 Speaker 1: genes identified so far. We also know that the age 125 00:06:58,054 --> 00:07:01,294 Speaker 1: of the parents plays a role and some environmental factors too. 126 00:07:02,574 --> 00:07:05,374 Speaker 1: The link between autism and paracetamol is based on a 127 00:07:05,414 --> 00:07:08,654 Speaker 1: review of forty six studies done by Harvard University and 128 00:07:08,774 --> 00:07:12,734 Speaker 1: Mount Sinai Means Medical Center. According to experts, the results 129 00:07:12,774 --> 00:07:16,334 Speaker 1: were so inconsistent that a meta analysis was unable to 130 00:07:16,334 --> 00:07:19,414 Speaker 1: be performed. A meta analysis is where you combine the 131 00:07:19,454 --> 00:07:23,134 Speaker 1: results of multiple independent studies to prove a single estimate 132 00:07:23,214 --> 00:07:27,134 Speaker 1: or outcome. It found some association in twenty seven of 133 00:07:27,174 --> 00:07:30,254 Speaker 1: those studies, but the rest did not, and the lead 134 00:07:30,294 --> 00:07:32,734 Speaker 1: author of the review stated that with these results they 135 00:07:32,854 --> 00:07:35,934 Speaker 1: cannot answer the question about causation when it comes to 136 00:07:36,014 --> 00:07:40,694 Speaker 1: answering whether there's any link between paracetamol use and autism. 137 00:07:40,774 --> 00:07:43,014 Speaker 1: A bigger study on whether there is a link was 138 00:07:43,054 --> 00:07:46,134 Speaker 1: done by Swedish researchers who looked at two point five 139 00:07:46,294 --> 00:07:49,174 Speaker 1: million children, including one hundred and eighty six thousand that 140 00:07:49,214 --> 00:07:52,934 Speaker 1: had been exposed to paracetamol and utero. Their initial result 141 00:07:53,214 --> 00:07:56,374 Speaker 1: was a five to seven percent increased risk of autism, 142 00:07:56,774 --> 00:07:59,854 Speaker 1: but that didn't take into account the pregnant woman themselves 143 00:07:59,974 --> 00:08:02,054 Speaker 1: who were taking the drug, because they were more likely 144 00:08:02,094 --> 00:08:04,694 Speaker 1: to have been suffering from an infection or chronic pain, 145 00:08:05,014 --> 00:08:08,414 Speaker 1: or who had ADHD or autism themselves, and we know 146 00:08:08,694 --> 00:08:12,174 Speaker 1: there is that genetic component to the disorder. When they 147 00:08:12,174 --> 00:08:15,054 Speaker 1: compared siblings, when one child was exposed to paracetamol and 148 00:08:15,134 --> 00:08:19,134 Speaker 1: utero and one wasn't, that initial association dropped to zero. 149 00:08:20,254 --> 00:08:23,174 Speaker 1: RFK Junior is also claiming that autism can be cured 150 00:08:23,174 --> 00:08:26,294 Speaker 1: by treating a folate disorder. Now we know that folic 151 00:08:26,334 --> 00:08:29,414 Speaker 1: acid is important during pregnancy to ensure our baby's brains 152 00:08:29,414 --> 00:08:33,174 Speaker 1: develop correctly. It helps prevent serious neural tube defects like 153 00:08:33,214 --> 00:08:36,374 Speaker 1: spina bifida, where the spine and spinal cord don't develop properly, 154 00:08:36,654 --> 00:08:40,254 Speaker 1: and anencephaly where the baby's skull and brain don't develop correctly. 155 00:08:40,894 --> 00:08:43,734 Speaker 1: The current research into the link between folate and autism 156 00:08:44,054 --> 00:08:46,574 Speaker 1: is mixed. There are some that suggest there is an 157 00:08:46,654 --> 00:08:50,214 Speaker 1: increased risk of autism with high folate intake and some 158 00:08:50,414 --> 00:08:53,454 Speaker 1: that suggest supplements can decrease the risk of autism, so 159 00:08:53,534 --> 00:08:57,374 Speaker 1: at this point the science is not conclusive. However, RFK 160 00:08:57,534 --> 00:09:01,334 Speaker 1: Junior is claiming that luca vorn, a prescription medication which 161 00:09:01,414 --> 00:09:04,374 Speaker 1: is a folate metabolite currently used to help people deal 162 00:09:04,414 --> 00:09:08,574 Speaker 1: with the side effects of chemotherapy, can cure autism for. 163 00:09:08,574 --> 00:09:13,454 Speaker 2: Pregnantly infants and toddlers. Research has revealed that fole AID 164 00:09:13,534 --> 00:09:18,214 Speaker 2: deficiency and a child's brain can lead to autism. We 165 00:09:18,294 --> 00:09:22,014 Speaker 2: have also identified and exciting therapy that may benefit larger 166 00:09:22,094 --> 00:09:26,334 Speaker 2: numbers of children who suffer from autism. Beer reviewed literature 167 00:09:26,374 --> 00:09:29,054 Speaker 2: has documented that up to sixty percent of fold AID 168 00:09:29,054 --> 00:09:34,134 Speaker 2: deficient children with ASD and have improve verbal communications. Have 169 00:09:34,254 --> 00:09:40,534 Speaker 2: given LUCA orin I have instructed NIHFDA, and CMS helped 170 00:09:40,574 --> 00:09:42,614 Speaker 2: doctors to treat children appropriately. 171 00:09:43,814 --> 00:09:46,734 Speaker 1: However, there are no large scale studies to measure this 172 00:09:46,814 --> 00:09:50,534 Speaker 1: claim against with only a few very small trials currently underway. 173 00:09:50,854 --> 00:09:53,654 Speaker 1: There is a suggestion that some children with autism may 174 00:09:53,734 --> 00:09:56,094 Speaker 1: show some improvement when it comes to things such as 175 00:09:56,174 --> 00:09:59,814 Speaker 1: verbal communication. That's due to some children with autism having 176 00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:03,414 Speaker 1: auto antibodies that block folate from getting into their brains 177 00:10:03,454 --> 00:10:07,054 Speaker 1: during development. But this has not been properly tested, and 178 00:10:07,094 --> 00:10:10,094 Speaker 1: that would only apply to some children with autio. It 179 00:10:10,174 --> 00:10:13,414 Speaker 1: is certainly not a cure all. In response to this, 180 00:10:13,654 --> 00:10:16,454 Speaker 1: Australia's Health Minister Mark Butler called on the TGA, the 181 00:10:16,454 --> 00:10:20,214 Speaker 1: Therapeutic Goods Administration, to release their guidance for Australian pregnant 182 00:10:20,254 --> 00:10:23,094 Speaker 1: women and those with autism or who have children who do. 183 00:10:23,414 --> 00:10:26,534 Speaker 1: And they said this, the TGA has no current active 184 00:10:26,614 --> 00:10:30,574 Speaker 1: safety investigations for piracy tamol an autism or piracy tamoil 185 00:10:30,614 --> 00:10:34,254 Speaker 1: a neurodevelopmental disorders. More broadly, But if I was pregnant 186 00:10:34,294 --> 00:10:37,894 Speaker 1: right now and hearing all this information, I would understandably 187 00:10:38,054 --> 00:10:41,294 Speaker 1: be confused and concerned, and I would question whether I 188 00:10:41,294 --> 00:10:44,054 Speaker 1: would start to wonder if I should stop taking paracetamol 189 00:10:44,054 --> 00:10:46,814 Speaker 1: as a result. But what do you take instead, if anything? 190 00:10:47,054 --> 00:10:49,334 Speaker 1: And what are the risks you're putting yourself in if 191 00:10:49,334 --> 00:10:51,374 Speaker 1: you don't take something to deal with something like a 192 00:10:51,414 --> 00:10:54,494 Speaker 1: fever when you're expecting. We spoke to Scott White, a 193 00:10:54,534 --> 00:10:57,454 Speaker 1: senior lecturer in maternal fetal medicine at the University of 194 00:10:57,454 --> 00:11:00,934 Speaker 1: Western Australia. Scott, thank you so much for joining us. 195 00:11:01,094 --> 00:11:04,134 Speaker 1: I wanted to get your opinion first up on how 196 00:11:04,174 --> 00:11:06,654 Speaker 1: you respond as someone who is a medical professional who 197 00:11:06,654 --> 00:11:10,134 Speaker 1: works specifically in medicine that deals with pregnant women and 198 00:11:10,334 --> 00:11:13,654 Speaker 1: babies in euro how do you respond to claims like 199 00:11:13,694 --> 00:11:15,734 Speaker 1: the ones that Trump and RFK have made. 200 00:11:15,894 --> 00:11:21,054 Speaker 6: Ideally sensitively, pregnancy is a time of joy and anxiety 201 00:11:21,494 --> 00:11:24,214 Speaker 6: for all couples, for all women, and to hear statements 202 00:11:24,254 --> 00:11:27,334 Speaker 6: like this is really quite concerning and it does make 203 00:11:27,374 --> 00:11:30,414 Speaker 6: our job as health professionals more difficult. So I'm going 204 00:11:30,454 --> 00:11:32,134 Speaker 6: to spend most of today and probably most of the 205 00:11:32,214 --> 00:11:36,494 Speaker 6: next couple of weeks debunking what's clearly a misapplication of 206 00:11:36,534 --> 00:11:37,014 Speaker 6: the science. 207 00:11:37,334 --> 00:11:38,894 Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about that for a moment. I 208 00:11:38,934 --> 00:11:42,934 Speaker 1: have run through what science these claims were based on 209 00:11:43,174 --> 00:11:46,414 Speaker 1: and how they are not in any kind of large 210 00:11:46,414 --> 00:11:49,374 Speaker 1: way representative of the claims that Trump and RFK are making. 211 00:11:49,654 --> 00:11:55,054 Speaker 1: But can you definitively say that paracetamol does or does 212 00:11:55,094 --> 00:11:57,294 Speaker 1: not cause autism, or are we at this stage where 213 00:11:57,334 --> 00:11:58,854 Speaker 1: we just don't understand it enough. 214 00:11:59,254 --> 00:12:01,574 Speaker 6: My reading of the evidence is that we can definitively 215 00:12:01,614 --> 00:12:04,654 Speaker 6: say that paracetamol exposure and pregnancy does not cause autism. 216 00:12:04,854 --> 00:12:09,134 Speaker 6: The evidence from earlier studies showed and association that's very clear. 217 00:12:09,534 --> 00:12:12,054 Speaker 6: But the biggest and most important study in this area 218 00:12:12,134 --> 00:12:14,134 Speaker 6: is the study out of Sweden of two by five 219 00:12:14,174 --> 00:12:18,054 Speaker 6: million children, which showed that the association which they demonstrated 220 00:12:18,094 --> 00:12:21,134 Speaker 6: as well, completely disappeared when you're controlled for other factors 221 00:12:21,174 --> 00:12:24,414 Speaker 6: that are associated with autism, not least the genetic factors, 222 00:12:24,414 --> 00:12:26,694 Speaker 6: which they identified by both by looking at the siblings 223 00:12:26,694 --> 00:12:29,574 Speaker 6: of those children and looking at neurodivergent diagnosis in the 224 00:12:29,614 --> 00:12:30,414 Speaker 6: parents themselves. 225 00:12:30,614 --> 00:12:34,734 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's look at then, the potential fallout of 226 00:12:34,774 --> 00:12:38,254 Speaker 1: telling women that paracetamol causes autism. So one of those 227 00:12:38,334 --> 00:12:42,494 Speaker 1: will be that women will stop using it if they say, 228 00:12:42,574 --> 00:12:45,774 Speaker 1: are in pain or experience a fever while they're pregnant. 229 00:12:45,774 --> 00:12:48,494 Speaker 1: Can we just talk about what implications that has. 230 00:12:48,854 --> 00:12:51,894 Speaker 6: Yeah, the science is clear that an exposure to high fevers, 231 00:12:52,294 --> 00:12:55,454 Speaker 6: either a fever from a virus or external high temperature 232 00:12:55,534 --> 00:12:58,614 Speaker 6: that increases the mother's core temperature increases the chance of 233 00:12:58,894 --> 00:13:02,614 Speaker 6: developmental complications in that fetus after birtha and later in life, 234 00:13:02,734 --> 00:13:06,934 Speaker 6: including neurodevelopmental complications. So not treating a fever actually could 235 00:13:06,934 --> 00:13:09,414 Speaker 6: well do harm. Women need to be reassured that most 236 00:13:09,534 --> 00:13:12,654 Speaker 6: women who get viruses at cule fever in early pregnancy, 237 00:13:12,694 --> 00:13:15,574 Speaker 6: their babies are going to be absolutely fine, but it's 238 00:13:15,694 --> 00:13:19,214 Speaker 6: not providing that treatment, maybe doing more more harm than good. 239 00:13:19,374 --> 00:13:22,974 Speaker 1: Can we also look at potentially women avoiding paracetamol and 240 00:13:23,094 --> 00:13:27,414 Speaker 1: using other types of pain relief in its place. What 241 00:13:27,454 --> 00:13:30,214 Speaker 1: do we know about using say ibuprofen or trying to 242 00:13:30,214 --> 00:13:33,174 Speaker 1: swap in other things that potentially could help with the pain. 243 00:13:33,334 --> 00:13:36,174 Speaker 1: What impact might that have on our unborn babies. 244 00:13:36,654 --> 00:13:39,694 Speaker 6: Absolutely so, paracetamol is clearly the safest medication to use 245 00:13:39,694 --> 00:13:41,894 Speaker 6: to treat pain and fever in early pregnancy. We know 246 00:13:41,974 --> 00:13:45,094 Speaker 6: that people who use things like ibuprofen then nonstridal and 247 00:13:45,134 --> 00:13:49,014 Speaker 6: inflammatory dugs increases slightly, but again importantly, the risk of 248 00:13:49,054 --> 00:13:51,454 Speaker 6: miscarriage if it when taken in early pregnancy and in 249 00:13:51,534 --> 00:13:53,374 Speaker 6: late pregnancy, they can do really very bad things to 250 00:13:53,414 --> 00:13:56,454 Speaker 6: babies kidneys and babi's heart and are absolutely to be avoided. 251 00:13:56,894 --> 00:14:00,054 Speaker 6: The one thing that was concerning from what Trump mentioned 252 00:14:00,094 --> 00:14:02,614 Speaker 6: today was using aspirin. The way we use aspirin in 253 00:14:02,654 --> 00:14:05,414 Speaker 6: pregnancy is very different to how we use aspirin outside 254 00:14:05,414 --> 00:14:07,974 Speaker 6: of pregnancy to treat pain and fever. There are women 255 00:14:07,974 --> 00:14:09,854 Speaker 6: who are recommended to take a low dose. So that's 256 00:14:09,894 --> 00:14:12,374 Speaker 6: been from early pregnancy to reduce the risk of placential 257 00:14:12,374 --> 00:14:15,934 Speaker 6: complications and pregnancy like preclamps Yeah, that's been really clearly 258 00:14:15,974 --> 00:14:19,654 Speaker 6: demonstrated to be absolutely and extremely beneficial in preventing early 259 00:14:19,694 --> 00:14:23,094 Speaker 6: births with those conditions, which again that early birth increases 260 00:14:23,134 --> 00:14:25,054 Speaker 6: the chance of neurodevelopmental complications. 261 00:14:25,894 --> 00:14:31,694 Speaker 1: RFK has mentioned this folate treatment for children who have 262 00:14:31,814 --> 00:14:34,934 Speaker 1: autism and that it's being touted somewhat as a cure 263 00:14:35,254 --> 00:14:39,414 Speaker 1: for autism. I've explained why this claim is being made 264 00:14:39,414 --> 00:14:41,974 Speaker 1: and the science that they are basing this on, and 265 00:14:42,094 --> 00:14:45,654 Speaker 1: that it does not cover every child with autism, and 266 00:14:45,734 --> 00:14:49,374 Speaker 1: that it may or may not be beneficial at this point. 267 00:14:49,414 --> 00:14:51,574 Speaker 1: But I guess there's warnings for people who might see 268 00:14:51,574 --> 00:14:53,014 Speaker 1: this and go, Okay, if I just take a whole 269 00:14:53,014 --> 00:14:55,534 Speaker 1: bunch of fol aate, this is going to ensure my 270 00:14:55,574 --> 00:14:58,934 Speaker 1: baby doesn't get autism. Or maybe they give their kids 271 00:14:58,934 --> 00:15:00,774 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of folate in the hopes that it 272 00:15:00,814 --> 00:15:03,014 Speaker 1: will fix it. Like what do we do, like, what 273 00:15:03,014 --> 00:15:04,614 Speaker 1: do we need to make sure is in place as 274 00:15:04,654 --> 00:15:06,774 Speaker 1: a warning sign and as a guide to make sure 275 00:15:06,854 --> 00:15:07,694 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen. 276 00:15:07,934 --> 00:15:11,494 Speaker 6: So studies that raf kan trump. We're alluding to other 277 00:15:11,574 --> 00:15:16,254 Speaker 6: studies of using folinic acid or lucovorin in autistic children. 278 00:15:16,414 --> 00:15:18,974 Speaker 6: There have been some important studies done in this area, 279 00:15:19,094 --> 00:15:23,014 Speaker 6: and they're small, they're preliminary, but they do provide some 280 00:15:23,094 --> 00:15:27,174 Speaker 6: evidence that using luca orin folinic acid may reduce some 281 00:15:27,214 --> 00:15:30,134 Speaker 6: of the verbal challenges that autistic kids can have. Is 282 00:15:30,174 --> 00:15:31,254 Speaker 6: it a cure for autism? 283 00:15:31,294 --> 00:15:33,734 Speaker 4: No, it's not. Do we need to cure autism? No 284 00:15:33,854 --> 00:15:34,294 Speaker 4: we don't. 285 00:15:35,294 --> 00:15:38,294 Speaker 6: Autisms are neurotype, not a disease. So these are the 286 00:15:38,294 --> 00:15:41,134 Speaker 6: things to think about. Those studies are very preliminary. Should 287 00:15:41,134 --> 00:15:44,174 Speaker 6: they be evaluated further? YEA, they absolutely should, because anything 288 00:15:44,254 --> 00:15:45,614 Speaker 6: that we can do to make the life of an 289 00:15:45,654 --> 00:15:47,934 Speaker 6: autistic child and their family better is something that we 290 00:15:47,974 --> 00:15:48,814 Speaker 6: should look at. 291 00:15:48,854 --> 00:15:50,374 Speaker 4: But I wouldn't go out. 292 00:15:50,054 --> 00:15:52,174 Speaker 6: And buy a whole part of this stuff expecting for 293 00:15:52,254 --> 00:15:54,814 Speaker 6: it to make miraculous differences to the lives of your children, 294 00:15:54,854 --> 00:15:56,894 Speaker 6: because that's not what the science suggests it will do. 295 00:15:56,934 --> 00:15:58,774 Speaker 1: At the moment, Scott, I wanted to ask you about 296 00:15:58,814 --> 00:16:01,494 Speaker 1: Trump's message for women who are dealing with pain or 297 00:16:01,534 --> 00:16:05,334 Speaker 1: fever during their pregnancy is really just a tough it out. 298 00:16:05,654 --> 00:16:07,894 Speaker 1: And as women, we've been told just to tough it 299 00:16:07,934 --> 00:16:10,614 Speaker 1: out various ways when it comes to our health, whether 300 00:16:10,654 --> 00:16:13,734 Speaker 1: it comes to menstrual cycles or any kind of pain 301 00:16:13,814 --> 00:16:17,014 Speaker 1: really developing from the pelvic area, or even when women 302 00:16:17,134 --> 00:16:19,614 Speaker 1: hit things like perimenopause, we're kind of basically told to 303 00:16:19,654 --> 00:16:21,894 Speaker 1: just kind of struggle through to the other side. What 304 00:16:21,934 --> 00:16:25,214 Speaker 1: message do you have for women who, I mean understandably 305 00:16:25,254 --> 00:16:27,454 Speaker 1: will be very concerned about this message, but also are 306 00:16:27,534 --> 00:16:29,734 Speaker 1: told your pain is just something you have to suck 307 00:16:29,814 --> 00:16:30,494 Speaker 1: up and get on with. 308 00:16:31,494 --> 00:16:32,894 Speaker 4: Yeah, a couple of things. 309 00:16:33,254 --> 00:16:36,134 Speaker 6: So we call this medical misogyny, and it's been around 310 00:16:36,134 --> 00:16:37,694 Speaker 6: for far too long and it should be a thing 311 00:16:37,694 --> 00:16:40,574 Speaker 6: of the past, but it's still not. For generations, men 312 00:16:40,614 --> 00:16:43,014 Speaker 6: have been telling women that what happens with their body 313 00:16:43,174 --> 00:16:45,534 Speaker 6: is normal and they should just suck it up and 314 00:16:45,574 --> 00:16:48,734 Speaker 6: deal with it. Pain and fever in pregnancy are not normal, 315 00:16:48,934 --> 00:16:50,974 Speaker 6: and they are completely safe to treat. And shouldn't be 316 00:16:51,014 --> 00:16:53,774 Speaker 6: tolerated just because they're women. There is good evidence from 317 00:16:53,814 --> 00:16:56,334 Speaker 6: other areas of medicine where women's pain is treated less 318 00:16:56,334 --> 00:16:58,614 Speaker 6: aggressively than it is in the same condition and men, 319 00:16:58,814 --> 00:17:01,054 Speaker 6: you know, women are often told, you know, suck it up, 320 00:17:01,094 --> 00:17:03,934 Speaker 6: the delayed diagnosis in endometriosis because women are told that 321 00:17:03,934 --> 00:17:06,574 Speaker 6: period pain is normal. There's so many examples, so many 322 00:17:06,574 --> 00:17:08,934 Speaker 6: distressing examples of this in medicine, and this is just 323 00:17:09,014 --> 00:17:11,174 Speaker 6: yet another one of them. It is time for us, 324 00:17:11,294 --> 00:17:14,734 Speaker 6: particularly us men, to stop telling women to suck things up. 325 00:17:14,934 --> 00:17:17,334 Speaker 1: What message can we leave women with today, Scott, whom 326 00:17:17,414 --> 00:17:20,734 Speaker 1: might be really worried right now, Like, what will you 327 00:17:20,774 --> 00:17:22,854 Speaker 1: be telling those women that you'll be seeing face to 328 00:17:22,894 --> 00:17:24,334 Speaker 1: face who are concerned about this. 329 00:17:25,254 --> 00:17:29,694 Speaker 6: Claims that there's association that paracetam wal causes autism are 330 00:17:29,694 --> 00:17:32,454 Speaker 6: really not supported in any way in evidence. In fact, 331 00:17:32,494 --> 00:17:34,894 Speaker 6: the evidence, rather than just being unclear, the evidence is 332 00:17:35,014 --> 00:17:38,174 Speaker 6: very clear that parasitomol exposure and early pregnancy does not 333 00:17:38,254 --> 00:17:40,454 Speaker 6: cause autism. It's really very clear. So we can be 334 00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:43,214 Speaker 6: reassured by the science regardless of what Trump and r 335 00:17:43,294 --> 00:17:45,294 Speaker 6: of Case say. At the end of the day, when 336 00:17:45,334 --> 00:17:48,574 Speaker 6: we use medications in pregnancy. We do so balancing the 337 00:17:48,774 --> 00:17:51,654 Speaker 6: risks of using that medication, the potential side effects of 338 00:17:51,654 --> 00:17:54,454 Speaker 6: that medication, versus the benefits that we expect to get. 339 00:17:54,494 --> 00:17:56,854 Speaker 6: And there is significant benefit in treating pain and favor 340 00:17:56,894 --> 00:17:59,774 Speaker 6: in pregnancy in terms of those pregnancy outcomes compared to 341 00:17:59,774 --> 00:18:02,014 Speaker 6: the harm which we know very well for parasitamol, which 342 00:18:02,054 --> 00:18:04,294 Speaker 6: has been studied in such big studies to show there 343 00:18:04,294 --> 00:18:07,334 Speaker 6: really is limited, if any risk at all. And so 344 00:18:07,494 --> 00:18:10,494 Speaker 6: we have those conversations to help women again that decision making. 345 00:18:10,534 --> 00:18:13,014 Speaker 6: But I guess take our message at any point in pregnancy, 346 00:18:13,014 --> 00:18:15,654 Speaker 6: if you're worried about something, then speak to your midwile, 347 00:18:15,694 --> 00:18:17,574 Speaker 6: speak to your doctor, speak to the person who knows 348 00:18:17,614 --> 00:18:20,334 Speaker 6: you best, who can help you navigate these decisions through 349 00:18:20,334 --> 00:18:20,934 Speaker 6: your pregnancy. 350 00:18:21,814 --> 00:18:24,734 Speaker 1: If we look at this announcement from a purely political position, 351 00:18:24,934 --> 00:18:27,774 Speaker 1: we've already seen how women's health has been weaponized in 352 00:18:27,774 --> 00:18:31,174 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, which changes to abortion laws after Roe v. 353 00:18:31,294 --> 00:18:35,134 Speaker 1: Wade was overturned. So could this be another deliberate strategy 354 00:18:35,294 --> 00:18:37,894 Speaker 1: and why would they do that? Well, there is a 355 00:18:37,934 --> 00:18:40,694 Speaker 1: long history of public health fear being used to make 356 00:18:40,734 --> 00:18:44,454 Speaker 1: women more compliant. Fear is a highly effective tool when 357 00:18:44,454 --> 00:18:47,454 Speaker 1: it comes to changing attitudes and behaviors. When a leader 358 00:18:47,534 --> 00:18:51,294 Speaker 1: raises health concerns about a common and trusted drug like paracetamol, 359 00:18:51,734 --> 00:18:55,214 Speaker 1: that motivates us, especially those in a vulnerable position like 360 00:18:55,294 --> 00:18:58,294 Speaker 1: during pregnancy and who are often the primary health decision 361 00:18:58,294 --> 00:19:01,094 Speaker 1: makers in their family, to look for guidance and to 362 00:19:01,134 --> 00:19:05,014 Speaker 1: those who have solutions, a solution like an untested cure 363 00:19:05,334 --> 00:19:08,814 Speaker 1: for a condition that seemed light years away from having one. 364 00:19:09,694 --> 00:19:11,854 Speaker 1: With the comment from my co host over on Well 365 00:19:11,894 --> 00:19:15,654 Speaker 1: our Women's Health podcast GP doctor Merriam, she posted this 366 00:19:15,854 --> 00:19:19,734 Speaker 1: after the Trump RFK Junior announcement, and she is not impressed. 367 00:19:20,054 --> 00:19:24,694 Speaker 7: Autism is a complex disorder, Okay, It's a condition with 368 00:19:24,814 --> 00:19:28,334 Speaker 7: strong genetic underpinnings, not something triggered by a couple of 369 00:19:28,374 --> 00:19:32,614 Speaker 7: paracetamol tablets. Now, when politicians like Trump or conspiracy theorists 370 00:19:32,774 --> 00:19:36,574 Speaker 7: try to play doctor, it's not only laughable, it's actually dangerous. 371 00:19:36,934 --> 00:19:40,254 Speaker 7: Their medical knowledge is about as reliable as a Facebook 372 00:19:40,254 --> 00:19:43,734 Speaker 7: common thread at two am and JFK Junior jumping on 373 00:19:43,774 --> 00:19:47,934 Speaker 7: the bandwagon. Please both of them can kiss my ass. 374 00:19:47,934 --> 00:19:51,054 Speaker 7: And here's the truth. Parasnamol is one of the safest 375 00:19:51,134 --> 00:19:56,414 Speaker 7: and most widely used medications globally. It's recommended by the 376 00:19:56,414 --> 00:20:01,454 Speaker 7: weld Talf Organization and used by millions, millions every single day. 377 00:20:01,814 --> 00:20:05,134 Speaker 7: If it caused autism, we'd be seeing an epidemic that 378 00:20:05,294 --> 00:20:09,494 Speaker 7: simply doesn't exist. So let's stop spreading fear, let's stop 379 00:20:09,574 --> 00:20:13,814 Speaker 7: spreading misinformation. Medicine is about evidence, it's not about politics. 380 00:20:14,054 --> 00:20:16,534 Speaker 7: And for the record, I have a child with autism 381 00:20:16,614 --> 00:20:18,334 Speaker 7: and I never took paracetamol. 382 00:20:19,094 --> 00:20:20,814 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with 383 00:20:20,894 --> 00:20:23,654 Speaker 1: us today. The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy 384 00:20:23,694 --> 00:20:26,494 Speaker 1: and Alaria Brophy, with audio production by Lou Hill.