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Speaker 1: It's nineteen ninety eight and seventeen year old Chantal MacDougall

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Speaker 1: has just moved into a secluded home in Melbourne's outskirts

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Speaker 1: to take on a job as a live in nanny.

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Speaker 1: Her dreams in the city of becoming a famous actress

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Speaker 1: have been put on hold for now. She didn't get

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Speaker 1: into the school she wanted, so she's keen to regroup

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Speaker 1: and make some money. As she starts the job and

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Speaker 1: becomes ameshed in her nanny family's life. In charge of

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Speaker 1: baby Daniel, she starts to pull back from her parents.

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Speaker 1: They don't really hear from her much, and when they do,

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Speaker 1: what she says is worrying. The dad of the family, Simon,

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Speaker 1: seems to be some kind of self styled spiritual guru

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Speaker 1: with some pretty wacky beliefs. Beliefs Chantelle is starting to

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Speaker 1: also sprook. As the years go by, Chantal's life gets

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Speaker 1: more and more secretive to her parents, it gets more

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Speaker 1: and more concerning. She is now dating the dad, Simon,

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Speaker 1: she has his baby. They moved to a tiny town

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Speaker 1: in wa they're rarely allowed to visit. Then nine years later,

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, Chantelle Simon their five year

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Speaker 1: old daughter Leela, and their friend Tony, a man who'd

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Speaker 1: been living on their property, simply go missing. They are

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Speaker 1: never heard of or seen again. I'm Jemma Bath and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. A note was left on

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Speaker 1: their Nunnap home door. It read, we have moved overseas

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Speaker 1: to Brazil and could not take most of our furniture

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Speaker 1: with us. Sorry to leave so quickly, but they never

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Speaker 1: went to Brazil. They never left the country. As news

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Speaker 1: of their disappearance broke, so too did the details of

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Speaker 1: Simon's cult like beliefs and doomsday p along with the

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Speaker 1: isolating and controlling hold he had over his partner and child.

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Speaker 1: But when an inquest in twenty eighteen failed to provide

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Speaker 1: any real answers about where the nun Up four might

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Speaker 1: be or what happened to them, the story naturally dipped

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Speaker 1: out of the headlines until now. ABC reporter Dominic Bayns

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Speaker 1: has been revisiting the case with fresh eyes in Expanse

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Speaker 1: the nanop four, which you can listen to via podcast

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Speaker 1: or watch on abciview Dominic joins us. Now to tell

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Speaker 1: us the latest in this story. Dominic, I want to

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Speaker 1: start with the town of Nunnup because a lot of

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Speaker 1: people might not have heard of this place. It's a

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Speaker 1: very small place. Tell me about it. Where is it?

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Speaker 1: How many people? What it's all about.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a beautiful part of the world. It's about

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Speaker 2: three hours south of Perths. So you kind of leave

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Speaker 2: Perth and drive down into the southwest of Wa and

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Speaker 2: you've got these kind of winding roads and jarra forests

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Speaker 2: and farmland and now not kind of just it just

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Speaker 2: kind of appears out of nowhere. You kind of get

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Speaker 2: no warning, and then suddenly it appears, and you drive

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Speaker 2: over this little bridge over this beautiful the Blackwood River,

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Speaker 2: which everyone in that area will know really well, and

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Speaker 2: you drive through and it's the kind of place. It's

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Speaker 2: still got so much of its historic charm. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I think quite a few TV shows and films are

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Speaker 2: made there because it still has all of that real

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Speaker 2: kind of colonial style, like the bullnos verandahs along the

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Speaker 2: main street. And yeah, it's history. It's a little timber town,

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Speaker 2: a little farming town. There's quite a bit of dairy

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Speaker 2: farming around that area, but probably in the late sixties

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Speaker 2: and seventies it started attracting more hippie that would come

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Speaker 2: there for the isolation and the cheap land prices. So

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Speaker 2: it's kind of it's made up of a real mix

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Speaker 2: of people, and I think that has brought a lot

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Speaker 2: of culture to the town because now well for years

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Speaker 2: it's had an annual Nanup Music Folk Festival, which is

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Speaker 2: just like really iconic here in Wa and it's grown

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Speaker 2: a lot. There's a lot of people, I guess tree

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Speaker 2: changes that have moved down there in the last twenty years.

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Speaker 2: But when this happened in two thousand and seven, it

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Speaker 2: was the kind of place where everyone knew everyone and

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Speaker 2: you would, you know, couldn't walk down the main street

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Speaker 2: without seeing someone you know it And it is still

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Speaker 2: really like that. It's a really close knit town.

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Speaker 1: And you live relatively close, you know this area quite well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I live about an hour away from nanap. I've

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Speaker 2: lived in the southwest of Wa since twenty twenty, so

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Speaker 2: about five years. But even like as a kid, you know,

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Speaker 2: I would come down here for weekends away or you know,

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Speaker 2: the Southwest is just such a beautiful place to visit.

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Speaker 2: So I've always been familiar with Nanap, but certainly over

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Speaker 2: the last year I have spent a lot of time there.

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Speaker 1: When did you first hear about this story? What attracted

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Speaker 1: you to it?

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Speaker 2: Well? I probably first it kind of had you know,

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Speaker 2: I was actually I would have been in high school

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Speaker 2: when this all happened. I first properly heard about it

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Speaker 2: when I've moved to the Southwest about five years ago,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't really know, you know, because I work

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Speaker 2: in a newsroom. It was kind of brought up every

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Speaker 2: now and then, and you know, once a year it

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Speaker 2: would sort of make the news again, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: really know that much more about it than what was

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Speaker 2: in the news headlines of like this bizarre doomsday cult.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't really until about a year ago that

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Speaker 2: I started looking more closely at it, trying to kind

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Speaker 2: of understand what actually happened, you know, was this occult?

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Speaker 2: Who were these people, what were their relationship to each other,

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Speaker 2: and what were the circumstances that led to their disappearance.

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Speaker 1: When you started digging and chatting to people and sniffing

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Speaker 1: around town a bit, were you welcomed, what was the

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Speaker 1: temperature When you started to kind of ask questions around

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Speaker 1: the place.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, it was a really mixed bag. There were

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Speaker 2: some people. You know, I think when something like this

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Speaker 2: happens in a small town, people kind of banned around

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Speaker 2: each other and in some ways maybe close ranks because

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Speaker 2: you know, this happened twenty years ago and at the

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Speaker 2: time there was such a media storm around it. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, someone told me at one point they had

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Speaker 2: helicopters flying over nanap and you know, there were a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who spoke at the time, and then

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Speaker 2: you know, were just continue tenuously. You know, had journalists

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Speaker 2: knocking on their door asking for quotes and to you know,

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Speaker 2: be interviewed. So for a lot of people, I think

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Speaker 2: it brings up not just the painful memories of the disappearance,

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Speaker 2: but the aftermath of that and what it was like

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Speaker 2: to have the town in the spotlight in that way.

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Speaker 2: So certainly some people that I approached felt like, I

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Speaker 2: do not want to talk about this again, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I can completely understand that. And then on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: you had people who I would call up and they'd say, yep,

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Speaker 2: I remember them, and this is what I know, and

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Speaker 2: maybe you should speak to this person. So I don't

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Speaker 2: think there was. You know, there wasn't a particular everyone

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Speaker 2: kind of reacted differently, I guess to my phone calls

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Speaker 2: and my request for you know, sitting down for a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea, I want.

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Speaker 1: To rewind a bit and go back to to kind

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Speaker 1: of the origin story of Chantelle, where she came from,

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Speaker 1: What was her story prior to Simon and everything else

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Speaker 1: that happened.

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Speaker 2: It's funny to talk about someone who you've never met

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Speaker 2: before in that way. But as I spoke to more

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Speaker 2: and more people about Chantelle, she really kind of came

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Speaker 2: to life for me and I could just see her

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Speaker 2: and the type of person she was. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I spent quite a bit of time with her parents,

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Speaker 2: who you know, they still live in a little town

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Speaker 2: in Victoria called Wodonga, and that's where Chantell grew up.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's this kind of, you know, lovely

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Speaker 2: little country town and she grew up having such a

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Speaker 2: kind of outdoorsy life. She was a real water baby,

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Speaker 2: and they spent quite a bit of time on the

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Speaker 2: dam out there and doing water sports and that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. But the impression that I get of Chantelle

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Speaker 2: as a child, she was just like this real goofy jokestar.

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Speaker 2: They you know, her parents talk about the really daggy

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Speaker 2: jokes that she liked to make, and her and her

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Speaker 2: sister loved performing. As she moved into high school, she

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Speaker 2: was involved in the local theater group and she had

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Speaker 2: dreams of being an actress. And in fact, when she

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Speaker 2: moved to Melbourne after high school, she had aspirations of

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Speaker 2: going to a local UNI or doing an acting course,

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Speaker 2: which unfortunately never happened for her.

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Speaker 1: Because she met Simon. How did he kind of come

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Speaker 1: into the picture?

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Speaker 2: Well, Chantelle, when she moved to Melbourne, she met another

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Speaker 2: man whose name was also Simon. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of Simon's cosy in this story. It's very confusing. But

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Speaker 2: she met another guy named Simon and he had been

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Speaker 2: attending an ashram in Melbourne, and it seems like he

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Speaker 2: came across Simon Cadwill's team during his time at that

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Speaker 2: ashroom or within that community, and he had Simon Cadwell's

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Speaker 2: books which he introduced to Chantelle. And we don't know

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Speaker 2: the I don't know the exact moment that he met Chantelle,

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Speaker 2: but at some point Chantelle's boyfriend Simon introduced her to

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Speaker 2: Simon Cadwell who then employed her as a live in

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Speaker 2: nanny for his young baby son, and from there that's

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Speaker 2: kind of how their story began and how they began

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Speaker 2: to be enmeshed with each other. So it began really

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Speaker 2: as a chantelle working as a live in nanny for

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Speaker 2: Simon Cadwell and then eventually entering into a relationship with

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Speaker 2: him and then having a child together.

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Speaker 1: So who was Simon at that time? You say he

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Speaker 1: was a dad, So did he have a partner? Was

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Speaker 1: he working? He was obviously already into some strange beliefs.

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Speaker 1: He published books. Who was he at that time?

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Speaker 2: So around this time, yeah, it was kind of this

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Speaker 2: was I'm talking about the late nineties, about ninety seven

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Speaker 2: ninety eight, and from what we understand of him at

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Speaker 2: this time, he just he was from the UK originally,

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Speaker 2: and he had just spent many years kind of going

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Speaker 2: back and forth to India. He'd stayed in ashrooms in India.

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Speaker 2: He had had gone through, I guess, this period of

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Speaker 2: what he describes as spiritual enlightenment. And during that time

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Speaker 2: he'd written a number of books, one of them called

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Speaker 2: Servers of the Divine Plan, and he'd also created an

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Speaker 2: online like a website and an online forum where he'd

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Speaker 2: amassed a number of followers, and he hosted free courses

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Speaker 2: and essentially answered people's questions about this religion that he

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Speaker 2: had essentially created. And you know, I guess, yeah, at

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Speaker 2: that point he was kind of established, I guess as

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Speaker 2: a spirit self styled spiritual guru. It doesn't appear that

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Speaker 2: he had, like I've never been able to find any

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Speaker 2: evidence that he held down an actual job apart from

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Speaker 2: writing his books. It seems like a lot of the

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Speaker 2: time he was being supported by the women around him,

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Speaker 2: and potentially by some of his followers as well. I

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Speaker 2: know that I've heard you say that it's quite hard

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Speaker 2: to answer this, but what were his beliefs? Well, look

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Speaker 2: to just trying to still it into a nutshell for you, Gemma,

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Speaker 2: I think he essentially believed that the world was moving

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Speaker 2: towards the end of a seventy five thousand year cycle,

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Speaker 2: and at that point there would be certain beings. And

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Speaker 2: when I say beings, he kind of he believed that

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Speaker 2: there were aliens on earth. He believed that certain I

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Speaker 2: guess people like himself would be sort of the chosen

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Speaker 2: people to move up to a higher plane and go

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Speaker 2: from the physical world to a fifth dimension, and only

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Speaker 2: people who were kind of servers of the divine plan

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Speaker 2: who had prepared themselves for that transition would kind of

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Speaker 2: be chosen to move up to a higher plane.

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Speaker 1: Right, So this is something he has created. He's the

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Speaker 1: leader of this kind of belief.

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Speaker 2: Well, from what I can tell, he's drawn from a

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Speaker 2: lot of different religions, but essentially he did create his

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Speaker 2: own religion in a sense.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and he has a cult, or he has a following.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, in I guess his life in nanap he

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Speaker 2: was a very insular, closed off person. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: not many people ever saw him around town, so it

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Speaker 2: was kind of like in the real world he didn't

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Speaker 2: really have that many people around him. But in his

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Speaker 2: online world, from what I've been able to uncover, he

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Speaker 2: had followers from around the world, particularly in America, some

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Speaker 2: in the UK as well, and a lot of these

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Speaker 2: people they were dedicated followers to him, and some people,

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Speaker 2: you know, they undertook his the courses that he offered,

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Speaker 2: but some of them also traveled to meet him in person.

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Speaker 1: So it was kind of like an online cult.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of a question I asked because some of

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Speaker 2: I guess the questions around this story are, well, this

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Speaker 2: was four people who disappeared, so how can this be

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Speaker 2: a cult? Was it really a cult? And that is

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Speaker 2: something that I kind of delve into in the podcast,

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Speaker 2: and I speak to a cult expert, a man named

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Speaker 2: Raphael Roon, who has spent forty years studying cults, and

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Speaker 2: from what he explained to me, the way he put

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Speaker 2: it was actually having you know, four people including a

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Speaker 2: child in this household created like almost a stronger sense

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Speaker 2: of enmeshment than the typical cult that you think of,

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Speaker 2: where the leader is sort of this far off person

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Speaker 2: that you never really meet, you just hear about it.

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Speaker 2: But because he was there right there in the house

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Speaker 2: every day and was I guess, the most spiritually dominant

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Speaker 2: person there, that the influence that he had on the

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Speaker 2: people around him was perhaps even stronger than you know,

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Speaker 2: your typical cult leader that you kind of think of

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Speaker 2: that is in the white robes and you know you

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Speaker 2: kind of only get the honor of meeting one. If

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Speaker 2: that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There were quite a few steps between

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Speaker 1: Chantal moving in as a nanny and nan up. So

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Speaker 1: she moved in, she's looking after Daniel. He lives in

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Speaker 1: the house. His partner or wife also lives in the house.

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Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes, So, like you said, there are

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Speaker 2: a few steps before they made it to nanap So

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Speaker 2: they met in Melbourne. Chantal was employed as a live

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Speaker 2: in nanny and she did go traveling. At one point

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Speaker 2: her parents talk about, you know, they'd heard she was

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Speaker 2: nannying for this man and they didn't really know much

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Speaker 2: about him, but Chantell kind of alluded to the fact

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Speaker 2: that he had, you know, had these spiritual beliefs that

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Speaker 2: she was sort of quite interested in. And she did

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Speaker 2: nanny for them for some time, but then she went

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Speaker 2: traveling and she went over to the UK, and her

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Speaker 2: parents thought, you know, she's this young eighteen year old

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Speaker 2: at this stage woman, and they felt quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of relief because they thought, oh, she's left this weird

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Speaker 2: situation that we don't really know much about, and she's

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Speaker 2: gone and done. You know, I guess normal teenage things

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Speaker 2: like traveling the world. But what they didn't know was

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Speaker 2: that Simon was actually in the UK with her, and

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Speaker 2: she helped Simon get back into the country, at which

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Speaker 2: point they moved to Perth in Western Australia and what

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Speaker 2: we've learned, what I've managed to find out from that

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Speaker 2: stage of their lives. Chantelle was living with Simon. He

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Speaker 2: had two other women in the house with him, who

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Speaker 2: I guess you could say were also his followers or

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Speaker 2: enmeshed in that world. So he was having relationships with

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Speaker 2: three women at one point in time, and at some

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Speaker 2: point the other two women left the city situation, and

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Speaker 2: Chantelle was the remaining woman with Simon and they had

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Speaker 2: a baby together.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth saying at this point too, that

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Speaker 1: you know, she met Simon when she was eighteen, he

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Speaker 1: was twenty seventeen, seventeen, and he.

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Speaker 2: Was seventeen and he was eighteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they end up having a child. Was that

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Speaker 1: kind of like the beginning of a family unit for them? Like?

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Speaker 1: Was that happy news? What did that look like?

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Speaker 2: I think for Chantelle's family it was happy news, because,

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, when a child was brought into

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Speaker 2: the world, it's a wonderful thing. And Leela was just

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Speaker 2: this gorgeous, tiny little baby with these big eyes. And

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Speaker 2: I think for Chantell's parents, you know, at this point,

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Speaker 2: they were still on the other side of the country

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Speaker 2: and they hadn't met Simon yet so Leila. Chantell's mum,

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Speaker 2: Cath traveled over to Perth when Chantelle had Leila, and

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Speaker 2: not only was that her first time meeting Leela, it

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Speaker 2: was her first time meeting Simon and that was a

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Speaker 2: pretty unsettling meeting. He was a really weird guy. I

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Speaker 2: think one of the first conversations he had with Chantell's

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Speaker 2: mum was asking her what planet she was from. So

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Speaker 2: it was a really complicated time. But I think they

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Speaker 2: did feel that, you know, the birth of Leela, they

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Speaker 2: hoped that that would be the start of kind of

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Speaker 2: a normal family situation and it did in some ways

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Speaker 2: open the door back up with their relationship with Chantelle

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Speaker 2: because until that point they really had no idea what

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Speaker 2: was going on in her world. They felt like they

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Speaker 2: couldn't ask too many questions because after she moved to

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Speaker 2: Melbourne and met Simon cad Will, they noticed such a

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Speaker 2: sudden change in her where she went from this bubbly,

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Speaker 2: goofy young woman to quite closed off. They didn't really

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Speaker 2: understand what these new spiritual beliefs were that she was

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Speaker 2: that she was experimenting with, I guess, and yeah, they

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Speaker 2: describe feeling like they were walking on eggshells and if

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Speaker 2: they asked too many questions they would be shut off

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Speaker 2: from Chantelle's So when she had Leela, they did feel

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Speaker 2: like the door opened a little bit and that they

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Speaker 2: had a connection with her again. And I guess, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's that thing of being able to just talk about

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Speaker 2: the mundane things of mothers. What am I going to

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Speaker 2: cook for dinner? And you know, and Chantelle's mum would

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Speaker 2: send over care packages and knit and so little outfits

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Speaker 2: for Leela. So I think, you know, it does feel

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Speaker 2: like at every fork in the road they were still

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Speaker 2: so hopeful that Chantelle was getting just like the normal

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Speaker 2: family life that they really wanted for her.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Tony here because he's another

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Speaker 1: figure that's around during this time. He's living in the

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Speaker 1: house when it's the three women, including Chantel and Simon.

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Speaker 1: How does he come into all of this because he

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Speaker 1: follows them to Nuannop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he seemed to. It's quite a It's hard

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Speaker 2: to find out much about how Tony made his way

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Speaker 2: into the group, but from what I've been able to

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Speaker 2: find out, it seems like he came into the Perth

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Speaker 2: house after the two women left, but he was living

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Speaker 2: in a tent in the backyard, despite you know, this

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Speaker 2: house having all these spare rooms. And from what I understand,

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Speaker 2: it was because Simon liked to have his own space,

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Speaker 2: which read into that what you will. But it seems

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Speaker 2: like at this point Tony himself was going through a

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Speaker 2: vulnerable time. He was this young man, this man in

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Speaker 2: his thirties, who until a couple of years before, had

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Speaker 2: had had a really stable job. He had a well

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Speaker 2: paid job, he had a company car, he was really

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Speaker 2: well dressed and just really kind of I guess, had

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Speaker 2: a pretty stable life. And at some point he started

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Speaker 2: going to these spiritual seminars where he was encouraged to

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Speaker 2: give away his possessions. And from there he essentially led

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Speaker 2: a pretty nomadic life where he kept to himself, and

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Speaker 2: at some point his path crossed with Simon Cadwill. He

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Speaker 2: moved into the house, and from there it seems like

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Speaker 2: he too became really enmeshed and under Simon's control in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: But he wasn't in a relationship with anyone. He was

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Speaker 1: more just like a follower.

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Speaker 2: It seems like he was a follower. He was a

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Speaker 2: good friend of Chantelle's. I think they had a really

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Speaker 2: a close connection, but it seems like he was a

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Speaker 2: follower of Simon's.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So how did they end up in nune Up.

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Speaker 2: They sort of made their way from Perth to increasingly

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Speaker 2: more isolated locations. They lived in Denmark for a little bit,

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Speaker 2: which is another little coastal town on Western Australia country,

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Speaker 2: not the country, and they eventually made their way to

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Speaker 2: Nanap in late two thousand and three, where they were

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Speaker 2: renting a little farmhouse about ten k's out of Nanup.

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Speaker 2: And from what I understand of that time, Simon was

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Speaker 2: feeling like there was a lot of noise or interference

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Speaker 2: from electricity and Wi Fi and too many people around.

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Speaker 2: So it seems like he was increasingly attracted to more

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Speaker 2: and more isolated places and that's how they came to

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Speaker 2: be living on the outskirts of Nanap.

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Speaker 1: Do you think his beliefs were getting more and more

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Speaker 1: extreme over this time as well?

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Speaker 2: I think that I don't know if it was that

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Speaker 2: his fees were becoming more extreme, or that he was

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Speaker 2: becoming perhaps more extreme in his behavior, and perhaps you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a mental health expert, but it seems like

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Speaker 2: at this point he was becoming more and more paranoid,

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Speaker 2: and more and more isolated and cut off from the world.

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Speaker 1: Certainly you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma

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Speaker 1: Bath I'm speaking with Dominic Bayn's journalist and host of

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Speaker 1: the ABC podcast expanse than None Up four Up Next.

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Speaker 1: Did anyone in Chantell and Leela's lives suspect they were

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Speaker 1: in danger? And did they say anything? What did the

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Speaker 1: locals think of this group? We've got, you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple with a daughter and then a man who's been

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Speaker 1: living with them, who was living in a caravan off

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Speaker 1: to the side of the house, again not in the house.

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Speaker 1: Did the town know them, did they like them? What

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Speaker 1: did they think?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Chantal and Tony were well liked and known around town.

401
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Speaker 2: You know, both of them held down quite a few

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Speaker 2: jobs during their time in nanap Tony he had a

403
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Speaker 2: job at the nursery, he worked at the hardware and

404
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Speaker 2: from everyone I've spoken to, the number one things they

405
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Speaker 2: say about him is that he was a really hard

406
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Speaker 2: worker and just a really a nice gentle man. So

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Speaker 2: he was known around town. And Chantelle herself, she had

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Speaker 2: a little group of friends. She worked really hard. She

409
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Speaker 2: had jobs at the fish and chip store, she worked

410
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Speaker 2: at at the local pub. She taught private swimming lessons.

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Speaker 2: She even looked out after a young woman with disabilities.

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Speaker 2: So they were both really contributing members of NANA and

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Speaker 2: well liked in the community. I think more so what

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Speaker 2: people say is that they never saw Simon around. They

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Speaker 2: would often see Chantelle or Tony and Leela, of course,

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Speaker 2: but Simon really kept to himself and didn't really leave

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Speaker 2: the house much.

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Speaker 1: What about the relationship between Chantell and Simon? Were there

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Speaker 1: any kind of worrying signs there or things that people noticed.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's been interesting talking to people about that

421
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Speaker 2: over the last year because it seems like everyone I

422
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: spoke to saw a little moment here or had a

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Speaker 2: kind of an unsettling experience there, But it's almost like

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Speaker 2: it wasn't enough to really ring the alarm bells. It's

425
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Speaker 2: only in hindsight that they sort of think, oh, that

426
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 2: was that was not great, or you know, maybe I

427
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: should have asked some more questions about that. There was

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Speaker 2: one woman in particular, she was in a homeschooling group

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Speaker 2: with Chantelle, and you know, they would catch up every

430
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Speaker 2: fortnight where the kids would do little activities and the

431
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: mums would catch up, and she always kind of got

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Speaker 2: the sense that, you know, Chantelle would share little bits

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Speaker 2: about her home life, but overall she was quite private.

434
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: But Diane did get the sense that Chantell's partner was

435
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: perhaps a little bit controlling. At one point, Chantelle had

436
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: told her that when she fell pregnant with Leela, Simon said, well,

437
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 2: you can have the baby, but it's your responsibility to

438
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: look after her. And at one point Diane did actually

439
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: go out for a visit with them, and she met

440
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,239
Speaker 2: Simon in person, and she said, you know, he was

441
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: pretty unremarkable. It was kind of you know, we had

442
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 2: a short chat, but he was fine. I didn't feel unwelcome.

443
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: But after she left, not long after that playdate, he

444
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: called her up on the phone. You know, this guy

445
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 2: that she'd met once in passing, and he called her

446
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: up to tell her, well, you know, Chantelle's got end

447
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 2: time syndrome. And she was like what, and he says, well,

448
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: the reason Chantelle, you know, doesn't like to go outside

449
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: too much is because you know, we don't go anywhere

450
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: because Chantelle has end time syndrome. She's scared about the

451
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 2: end of the world. And Diane said, to me. You know,

452
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: she said, Chantell had never mentioned anything about this to

453
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: me before, and she was kind of thinking, why is

454
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: this man who I've met once calling me up to

455
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: tell me this about his partner. And she sort of said,

456
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, Diane's a real she's a real straight shooter.

457
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: And she just said, well, you know, thanks for telling

458
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: me that, Simon. But I think, you know, if Chantell

459
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: wants to tell me that, she can tell me that

460
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: herself and see you later. And so, you know, it's

461
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: it's these little moments of a phone call here or

462
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: an interaction there where people felt like, you know, there's

463
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: something kind of off about this guy, but not enough

464
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: to really ring too many alarm belts.

465
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like as well, when this story

466
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: first made headlines back in two thousand and seven, that

467
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: the focus was so much on the cult and the

468
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: doomsday and all of that that perhaps the complicated relationship

469
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: and potentially flags there weren't something that were discussed as much.

470
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: I think so for sure, I think that it's definitely

471
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: been overlooked in my view, how young Chantelle was when

472
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: she met him, seventeen years old. I don't know if

473
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: you can remember what you were like at seventeen, But

474
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: I can't imagine meeting a man eighteen years older than

475
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: me and moving in as his living nanny when he's

476
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: this spiritually dominant, self styled guru who's claiming to have

477
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: all the answers, and in my view, like a young

478
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: woman like Chantelle, who's been described as open and bubbly

479
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: and maybe a little bit naive, I don't think she

480
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: really stood a chance against that. And it seems like,

481
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: you know, across the ten years that led to their disappearance,

482
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: they became more and more enmesh. They had a baby together,

483
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: they moved away from her family and her friends to

484
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: these increasingly isolated areas, and I certainly think that yes,

485
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: on the surface, we look at it and see this

486
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: doomsday cult, this bizarre disappearance, But when you look closer

487
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: at the heart of this, it's this seventeen year old

488
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: woman who's met a man much older than her and

489
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: he's his behavior has been one of manipulation and isolation

490
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: and lack of self autonomy, which I think in twenty

491
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: twenty six we would look at that and say it's

492
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: a textbookcase of coercive control.

493
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: That's the phrase that keeps coming up in my brain

494
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: when I think about it. I'm like, the manipulation, the

495
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: coursive control, and those weren't that we were using as

496
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: much in two thousand and seven.

497
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think, you know, in

498
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: the early two thousands, a relationship was only dangerous if there.

499
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Was violence physical or yeah.

500
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: Physical violence, yeah. And I think what we know now

501
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: is that a controlling relationship is it can look so

502
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: many different ways, and this was one of them.

503
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: They disappeared in two thousand and seven, but it wasn't

504
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: like that happened kind of out of the blue, because

505
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: they were kind of planning to move so to speak.

506
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: Tell me about that, because they visited Cath or Cath

507
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: visited them then Chantel's mother, and they were kind of

508
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: telling everyone they were going to move overseas.

509
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: Yes, there was talk of movement or moving overseas in

510
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: the months leading up to the disappearance, and there were

511
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: a few things that kind of you can look back

512
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: now and say, well, maybe that was what, you know,

513
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: what sparked all of this, what led to the disappearance.

514
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: But you know, one of those things which we hear

515
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: about in episode one is the power transformer which was

516
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: installed on their property and Simon's real distress about that

517
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: and his worry that the power transformer was emitting emf's

518
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: electromagnetic fields and that that was interfering with his mind,

519
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: and it seems like that was a big source of

520
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: paranoia and mental distress for him and one of kind

521
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: of the starting points of him, you know, them saying

522
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: that they were going to move away to an area

523
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: where no one could find them. But you know, Kath MacDougal,

524
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: Chantelle's mum. Her final visit to Chantelle was just a

525
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: couple of months before they disappeared, and at that point,

526
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: Chantal had not said anything about moving overseas. Had been

527
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: a passport that had arrived for Leela during that visit,

528
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: which you know, Chantelle kind of brushed off, didn't say

529
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: too much about. And it wasn't until Cath left nan

530
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: Up and returned back to Victoria that she received a

531
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: phone call from Chantell where Chantell said, we're moving to

532
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: Brazil in six weeks time, and that was you know,

533
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: that was a huge shock for Cath and she immediately,

534
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: you know, did everything within her power to kind of

535
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: try and stay in contact with Chantale. They got the

536
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: Internet installed. Kath put together a little backpack care package

537
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: for Leila where she'd put all of her contact details

538
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: in there because she knew, you know, if you guys

539
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: moved to Brazil, we're probably not going to see you

540
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: for many years because we don't have the money to

541
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: get over there and visit, and you guys don't have

542
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: the money to come back for a visit. So it

543
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: was around that time they did tell people that they

544
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: were moving to Brazil, But at the same time there

545
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: were people who came. They had no idea that they'd

546
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: moved to Brazil. You know, they didn't give notice to

547
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 2: their landlords. They left a note pinned the door saying

548
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: that they'd moved to Brazil. So it seems like it

549
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: was kind of a murkier situation than just saying, oh,

550
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: we're moving overseas.

551
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: So it's almost like there was a bit of talk

552
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: of it and then suddenly they were gone. Who was

553
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: it that raised the alarm that they were actually gone

554
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: and missing?

555
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 2: Chantell's parents, you know, they had had a final phone

556
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: call with her where she said, yep, we're just we're

557
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: getting ready to leave and we will contact you as

558
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: soon as we get there, and so every day cath

559
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: would go out and check the letterbox and they'd check

560
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: their email that they'd set up, and they had no

561
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: word from her. And pretty much within weeks they started

562
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: getting really concerned. They actually reached out to a family

563
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: friend who was a local police officer in Country Victoria,

564
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: not far from where they live, and they asked him

565
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: for help. And that's kind of when the alarm bells

566
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: really started ringing, because from his early investigation he found

567
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: that nobody had well, they hadn't used their passports, and

568
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 2: their bank accounts hadn't been touched, and they sold a

569
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: lot of their possessions as well in the lead up

570
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: to the disappearance.

571
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: Once the police got involved and they realized, these people

572
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: haven't left the country, they haven't gone to Brazil, even

573
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: though that's where they've said they've gone. They haven't touched

574
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: their bank accounts. What do they what are their theories?

575
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: What do they look at at the time.

576
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: Well, at this point in time, I guess you have

577
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: to remember that these are three adults and a child,

578
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: but three adults who have told people were moving overseas,

579
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: and so you know, in the first instance, it went

580
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: to the missing person's team within WA police. But when

581
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: three adults say that they're moving overseas, there's not really

582
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: you know, you kind of just take their word for

583
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: it and think, well, they've said that they were moving overseas,

584
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 2: that's probably what they've done. So it kind of took

585
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: some time for I guess that concern to really deepen,

586
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: and it was only when more information about Simon Cadwell

587
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: himself came to light that I think the concern really

588
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: grew around, Okay, what actually happened here, because even the

589
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: McDougall's at that point thought, oh, they've got to Brazil

590
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: and something's happened to them there. The idea that perhaps

591
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: they hadn't even left the country at all hadn't really

592
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: occurred to them.

593
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: After the break, we learn more about who Simon Cadwell

594
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: really was. So what were some of the things to

595
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: come out about Simon's history or story in the inquest

596
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: that we didn't know about well.

597
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: I think the most shocking thing that came out, which

598
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 2: actually came out well before the inquest, but it sort

599
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: of was covered again during that investigation, was the fact

600
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: that Simon Cadwill was lying about his identity and he

601
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: was his real name was not Simon Cadwill, it was

602
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 2: Gary Felton, and he was a man who had grown

603
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: up in the UK. And actually one of his first

604
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: jobs was working at a software company, which is kind

605
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 2: of a bit of foreshadowing there that he ended up

606
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: spending so much time on the Internet. So this was

607
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: a man who knew a lot about computers in the

608
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 2: early eighties when not a lot of us knew that

609
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: much about computers. But one of his first jobs was

610
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: at a software company in his early twenties, where he

611
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: met a man named Simon Cadwill and ended up stealing

612
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 2: his birth certificate and then stealing his identity and traveling

613
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: to Australia and assuming the name Simon Cadwill while he

614
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: was living here.

615
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: Do we know why, We don't.

616
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: It's not one hundred percent known why he did it,

617
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: but to me it seems like almost an opportunistic behavior.

618
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: He took the passport, he created a driver's license while

619
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: he was in the UK, and it's sort of snowballed

620
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: from there to the point where he got a passport

621
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: under that name and then moved to Australia and then

622
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 2: just you know, nobody really knew him as anything other

623
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: than Simon Cadwell when he came here. But you know,

624
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: this was something that Chantelle's parents didn't find out until

625
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 2: two year years after the disappearance. In fact, they talk about,

626
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: you know, they told me the story of they were

627
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 2: actually traveling up the East coast handing out missing Persons

628
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 2: flyers because they were just desperate to do anything they

629
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: could to try and find Chantelle and Leela or find

630
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: out information about what had happened. And it was when

631
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: they were traveling up the East coast that they got

632
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: a call from a reporter saying that a man named

633
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: Simon Cadwell has been arrested in the UK. But it's

634
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: not the Simon Cadwell, you know. And actually the Simon

635
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 2: cad Will you know, his real name is Gary Felton

636
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: and he's been operating under a false identity for years now.

637
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: It gives so many more question marks to this story.

638
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: It raises the you know, at that point, Kath and Jim,

639
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: you know, they didn't really know what had happened. They

640
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: still don't know. But when you find out that your

641
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: daughter's past is a man who's stolen his identity off

642
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: of someone, I think for them it really brought you know,

643
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: they started going, Oh, my god, who is this man?

644
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: And what is he actually capable of? If he was

645
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: capable of stealing his identity, and why did he steal it?

646
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,959
Speaker 2: What was he running from? And what has he done

647
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: to our daughter and granddaughter? You know, those are the

648
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: questions that were going around in their minds.

649
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: Have we heard anything from anyone in Gary's life about

650
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: what he was like?

651
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? I managed to track down some of his childhood friends,

652
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: and from what I've been able to find out about him,

653
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: he was this, you know, quite good looking. He's described

654
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: as quite good looking, charismatic, he could really spin a yarn,

655
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: tell a great story, and he until his kind of

656
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: At some point in his twenties, he was working at

657
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: a software company. He liked party on the weekends, just

658
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: do kind of normal, you know, early twenty mid twenties things,

659
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: And at some point he started taking LSD. Is the

660
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: story that I've been told by someone who knew him

661
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: quite well. He started taking LSD and he really changed

662
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: from that point, and he started talking about having a

663
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: direct line to God and about aliens existing, and he

664
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: talked about having the cure for cancer. So just you know,

665
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 2: really bizarre behavior and in the words of one of

666
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: his old friends that I spoke to, he just felt

667
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: like he blew his mind on LSD And it was

668
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: at that point that he left his job. He started

669
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 2: traveling for long stretches of time to India where he

670
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: was experiencing I guess he called it spiritual enlightenment, and

671
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: I guess became increasingly more bizarre and unsettling in his

672
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: behavior until it came a point where his friends in

673
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: the UK didn't see him anymore and he'd moved to

674
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: Australia under a new identity.

675
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: Well, another theory that ended up coming up was this

676
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 1: family suicide plan idea. Is that something that wasn't kind

677
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: of presented until the inquest, which was many many years

678
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: later twenty eighteen. Is that when that kind of became

679
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: a potential theory.

680
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, that came out in the investigation that was

681
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: held in the lead up to the inquest, when a

682
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: lot of Simon's online activities were looked into and some

683
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: of his followers were tracked down. And that was something

684
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: that came as a real shock to Chantelle's family that

685
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: they had no idea about that in the months leading

686
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: up to their disappearance, Simon had spoken to one of

687
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: his online followers and told them about plans for a

688
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: family suicide packed, and he'd said in that message that

689
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: he didn't think Chantell could go through with it because

690
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: she kept delaying. And one of the follower that he

691
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 2: was speaking to said to him, if you do that,

692
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 2: that is tantamount to murder, because you're taking the life

693
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: of your five year old daughter. And it was at

694
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 2: that point that he became much more closed off, and

695
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: he said, actually, I've changed my mind and we're just

696
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 2: going to move to an isolated area where no one

697
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: can reach us.

698
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,959
Speaker 1: What would the reason have been that he gave for

699
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: a suicide pact.

700
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: From what I've been able to find, it seems like

701
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 2: in those months leading up to the disappearance, he spoke

702
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: of having his energy was low, he was feeling like

703
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: the I guess that the planets were sort of disrupting

704
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: his internal world. I guess you could say. It seems

705
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: like and some you know, people have reported that he

706
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: spoke of depression, of not wanting to be on this

707
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 2: planet anymore. So it seems from his online behavior that

708
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: Simon Cadwill was declining in his own kind of mental health.

709
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: I guess you could say.

710
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, when this theory was presented to Chantell's parents, what

711
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: did they think about that? Is that something that they

712
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: think their daughter could or would do?

713
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: You know, that's a question that I asked them, and

714
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: it's a really it's a difficult question to ask if

715
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: any parents lost their child. And you know, they said

716
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: to me, we just don't think that Chantell could have

717
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: hurt Leela. Yeah, because she was such a loving mum

718
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: and she really did have such a beautiful connection with

719
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: Leela and take really good care of her. I think,

720
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think that they have said to

721
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: me that they swing between hope and despair. You know,

722
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 2: one day they'll think, oh, maybe they have just moved

723
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: somewhere and off grid where they can't be contacted, and

724
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: other days they feel like Simon has done something to

725
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 2: their daughter and granddaughter. But we just don't know.

726
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: Because the area nan Up has been searched, hasn't it

727
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 1: quite extensively for bodies?

728
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a search within Nanop, within the bushland

729
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: surrounding Nanup sort of well many many years ago now,

730
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: and it wasn't it didn't you know, bring anything to light.

731
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: No, what did that in quest conclude? Did it give

732
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: any closure to the parents of Chantelle?

733
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: Unfortunately not. You know, there was a lot of really

734
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: troubling information that came to light, the main thing being

735
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: Simon's talk of a family suicide packed but unfortunately the

736
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 2: coroner could not determine whether they were alive or dead.

737
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: So sadly, you know, the McDougall's thought that that was

738
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: going to be their final chance to get, you know,

739
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: finally get answers, and it wasn't to be.

740
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: So they were left with this kind of real mystery

741
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: where you know, they really don't know what's happened. And

742
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: then you picked up the case a year or so ago.

743
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: Since you've been investigating, has anything surprised you?

744
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: A lot of things have surprised me. I think, you know,

745
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: I was able to find people who knew Simon cad

746
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: will Well when he was a younger man and had

747
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 2: some really crucial insight into how he became the person

748
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: that he did, and that was not something that was

749
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: in the the inquest and not something that's really has

750
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: been reported on at all before. I spoke to a

751
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: lot of people who have never spoken publicly before, each

752
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: who were able to give me a little piece of

753
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: the puzzle each which you know, when you put it

754
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: all together, paints this really complex picture. I think what

755
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: surprised me the most was the fact that, you know,

756
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 2: like we said earlier, on the surface, when you think

757
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: of a doomsday cult, it brings to mind people in

758
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: white robes, you know, worshiping around of buyer, and this

759
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: story is like, it's like something that could happen in

760
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: a movie. But when you really start looking closely at it,

761
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 2: the themes around it are just so common that that

762
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: coercive control, the isolation, the spiritual dominance. I think that

763
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 2: that is really what surprised me the most was just

764
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 2: how not ordinary but home and the kind of behavior

765
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: and relationship between these people.

766
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: Were underneath those crazy headlines exactly. Yeah, I know you're

767
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: still in the weeds of this case. You're still chasing leeds.

768
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 1: Do you think we'll find answers on where the nun

769
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: up four are and what happened to them?

770
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: I really don't know. I would, I would. I would

771
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: love that for the McDougall family and the Popitch family

772
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: and everybody who knew them and loved them. Towards the

773
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: end of the podcast, we do speak with a man

774
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: who's been conducting his own investigation to retired Victorian detectives

775
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: who are looking into this, and you know, they have

776
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: a theory and we really we dig into that and

777
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: look at the possibilities around that. But you know, at

778
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: this stage, we still don't know where they are. But

779
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm really hopeful that by doing podcast, you know, not

780
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: only will people understand this story more and perhaps have

781
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: more compassion for the people involved, but also that you know,

782
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: it might bring people out of the woodwork. And you know,

783
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: at the end of every podcast episode, I say, you know,

784
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: if you have any information, this is an ongoing case

785
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: and please get in touch or please contact PLAE. So

786
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: I think you know, And that's one of the main

787
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: reasons why the McDougall's wanted to take part in this,

788
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: because over the last twenty years they have just tried

789
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: to keep Chantelle and lead a story in the spotlight

790
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: in the hopes that somebody will come forward with some information,

791
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: because I think they really do believe that somebody out

792
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: there knows something about this.

793
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 1: Is there a question that keeps you up at night,

794
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: one little kind of is there anything from this story

795
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: where you're like No, that's what I really want to know, Like,

796
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: what's the thing you struggle with the most not knowing about?

797
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: In this case, there's so many, so many questions that

798
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: keep me up at night. I think. I think a

799
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: lot about the people who've been left behind in this

800
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: and the impact that it's had in their life. And

801
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: you know, when you do something like this, when you

802
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: put together this podcast like we have, I think a

803
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: lot about how they have made themselves so vulnerable and

804
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 2: you know, exposed their heartbreak once again trying to keep

805
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: Chantelle's story in the spotlight. So that is something that

806
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: I personally think about a lot, and hoping that I've

807
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: kind of done justice to that and to their story.

808
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: And then you know, to do with the case. I

809
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: just I keep going over and over. You know, how

810
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 2: did this young woman who had the world at her feet,

811
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 2: who had dreams of becoming an actress, just become so

812
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 2: enmeshed in this man's life who was so you know,

813
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 2: he had he spoke a big you know, a big game,

814
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: and he had a lot of I guess he was

815
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: very charismatic, but at the end of the day was

816
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: just this ordinary man who was just controlling and arrogant

817
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: and believed that he had all of the answers, and

818
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 2: then of course the question that everyone wants to know,

819
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: where are they and what happened? And that you know,

820
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: I absolutely go over that over and over in my

821
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 2: mind and think about all of the different possibilities, and

822
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: it just you go around and around in circles. So

823
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it's like to be their family

824
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: and their friends and have gone over those questions again

825
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: and again for nearly twenty years.

826
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: Thank you to Dominique for helping us to tell this story.

827
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: You can listen to the podcast Expanse then up four

828
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: at the link in our show notes. This episode does

829
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: discuss suicide and if you or someone you know needs support,

830
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: please contact Lifeline Australia at thirteen eleven fourteen. If you

831
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: want to see visuals from this episode, head over to

832
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations and for in

833
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,959
Speaker 1: depth case explainers follow us on TikTok under the same name.

834
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Jemmy baff Our.

835
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Tarlie Blackman, the group executive producer is

836
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 1: Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio design by Jacob Brown.

837
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

838
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the

839
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast was

840
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: recorded on