1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:13,352 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. For those of 3 00:00:13,432 --> 00:00:16,192 Speaker 1: us who remember this unfolding on our TV screens, it's 4 00:00:16,192 --> 00:00:19,271 Speaker 1: hard to believe that it's been nearly thirty years since 5 00:00:19,272 --> 00:00:22,752 Speaker 1: the Port Arthur massacre, one of the most devastating events 6 00:00:22,792 --> 00:00:26,912 Speaker 1: in Australian history. It's only now, all these years later, 7 00:00:27,512 --> 00:00:30,752 Speaker 1: that we're finally starting to understand what really drove Martin 8 00:00:30,792 --> 00:00:34,872 Speaker 1: Bryant to commit such a horrific crime. A recently uncovered 9 00:00:34,912 --> 00:00:39,832 Speaker 1: psychiatric report, never released to the public until now, reveals 10 00:00:39,872 --> 00:00:43,751 Speaker 1: what Bryant told a forensic psychiatrist just days after the 11 00:00:43,832 --> 00:00:48,272 Speaker 1: massacre while recovering in hospital. According to the report, Bryant's 12 00:00:48,351 --> 00:00:54,072 Speaker 1: plan wasn't random. It actually started as revenge aimed at 13 00:00:54,152 --> 00:00:57,432 Speaker 1: just one couple, David and Noline Martin, the owners of 14 00:00:57,472 --> 00:01:01,632 Speaker 1: Seascape guest House. Bryant's father, Maurice, had wanted to buy 15 00:01:01,672 --> 00:01:05,352 Speaker 1: that property for years, but when the Martins purchased it instead, 16 00:01:05,912 --> 00:01:09,232 Speaker 1: Maurice fell into a deep depression and eventually sadly took 17 00:01:09,272 --> 00:01:14,871 Speaker 1: his own life. Bryant blames the Martins entirely. He told 18 00:01:14,872 --> 00:01:17,592 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist that he believed they were, in his words, 19 00:01:18,152 --> 00:01:22,312 Speaker 1: very mean people who'd ruined his family's future. About a 20 00:01:22,392 --> 00:01:25,271 Speaker 1: year before the massacre, that's when he began planning to 21 00:01:25,352 --> 00:01:28,992 Speaker 1: kill them. But as we know, that plan didn't stop there. 22 00:01:29,712 --> 00:01:33,072 Speaker 1: According to the report, Bryant said to the psychiatrist, I 23 00:01:33,072 --> 00:01:35,792 Speaker 1: thought I might as well kill a few more. He 24 00:01:35,911 --> 00:01:39,032 Speaker 1: chose to port out the historic site on purpose because, 25 00:01:39,072 --> 00:01:41,631 Speaker 1: as he put it, a lot of violence has happened there. 26 00:01:41,911 --> 00:01:44,792 Speaker 1: It seemed like the right place. Bryant also said that 27 00:01:44,872 --> 00:01:47,952 Speaker 1: he fully expected to die that day too. It was 28 00:01:47,992 --> 00:01:50,392 Speaker 1: said in my mind, he said, I wasn't worried about 29 00:01:50,432 --> 00:01:53,632 Speaker 1: losing my property or never seeing my girlfriend again. I 30 00:01:53,872 --> 00:01:57,352 Speaker 1: just wanted to go down and kill the Martins and 31 00:01:57,392 --> 00:02:01,112 Speaker 1: a lot of people. In this episode, former True Crime 32 00:02:01,152 --> 00:02:05,392 Speaker 1: Conversations host Jesse Stevens speaks with Anita Bingham, a survivor 33 00:02:05,432 --> 00:02:08,312 Speaker 1: of the port out the massac. You'll hear what she saw, 34 00:02:08,632 --> 00:02:11,312 Speaker 1: what she lived through, and how it's shaped her life 35 00:02:11,352 --> 00:02:14,712 Speaker 1: since this is her story in her own words. Take 36 00:02:14,752 --> 00:02:18,672 Speaker 1: a listen. The following episode contains discussions of violence and 37 00:02:18,712 --> 00:02:22,832 Speaker 1: the retelling of traumatic events. Listener discretion is advised. 38 00:02:25,712 --> 00:02:29,192 Speaker 2: It's lunchtime on a cool Sunday in April, and the 39 00:02:29,192 --> 00:02:33,912 Speaker 2: Port Arthur Historic Site is buzzing with visitors. Located at 40 00:02:33,912 --> 00:02:37,432 Speaker 2: the southern tip of the Tasman Peninsula, Port Arthur is 41 00:02:37,472 --> 00:02:40,992 Speaker 2: located about one hundred kilometers southeast of Hobart, the capital 42 00:02:41,032 --> 00:02:45,192 Speaker 2: of Tasmania. The quaint village was once a penal settlement 43 00:02:45,512 --> 00:02:49,432 Speaker 2: and a main draw card for tourists visiting Australia's southernmost state. 44 00:02:50,992 --> 00:02:54,832 Speaker 2: At around one ten PM, a man named Martin Bryant 45 00:02:55,112 --> 00:02:58,512 Speaker 2: pays his entry fee for the Port Arthur site and 46 00:02:58,632 --> 00:03:02,752 Speaker 2: parks near the Broad Arrow Cafe. He sits in his 47 00:03:02,792 --> 00:03:06,472 Speaker 2: car for a few minutes. He is seen walking towards 48 00:03:06,512 --> 00:03:09,512 Speaker 2: the cafe with a sports bag and a video camera. 49 00:03:10,512 --> 00:03:13,512 Speaker 2: He orders lunch, which he eats on the outside deck 50 00:03:14,512 --> 00:03:18,432 Speaker 2: to onlookers. He looked slightly nervous, but otherwise like a 51 00:03:18,472 --> 00:03:25,552 Speaker 2: normal man, likely just another tourist visiting Port Arthur. That morning, 52 00:03:25,912 --> 00:03:29,592 Speaker 2: Bryant had awoken at six am, which was unusually early 53 00:03:29,672 --> 00:03:32,832 Speaker 2: for him. He left his home at nine forty seven 54 00:03:32,872 --> 00:03:37,032 Speaker 2: am and drove to force It, arriving around eleven am. 55 00:03:37,792 --> 00:03:41,032 Speaker 2: Then he continued on to Port Arthur, where he stopped 56 00:03:41,072 --> 00:03:45,432 Speaker 2: at an accommodation site in Seascape. He hated the owners, 57 00:03:45,672 --> 00:03:49,192 Speaker 2: David and Noline Martin, who had bought the property before 58 00:03:49,272 --> 00:03:54,032 Speaker 2: Bryant's father had been able to his father, Maurice Bryant, 59 00:03:54,312 --> 00:03:59,392 Speaker 2: had been devastated and years later had ended his own life. 60 00:03:59,912 --> 00:04:04,992 Speaker 2: Bryant blamed the Martins for his father's death. When he 61 00:04:05,112 --> 00:04:09,672 Speaker 2: arrived at Seaside, he fired several shots, killing Noline Martin 62 00:04:10,112 --> 00:04:14,512 Speaker 2: and then stabbing David Martin. He then continued to Port 63 00:04:14,632 --> 00:04:20,752 Speaker 2: Arthur with a lightweight semi automatic rifle. What followed was 64 00:04:20,791 --> 00:04:24,712 Speaker 2: the worst massacre in Australian history committed by a single person. 65 00:04:25,752 --> 00:04:29,632 Speaker 2: Thirty five people were killed and twenty three were left wounded. 66 00:04:33,792 --> 00:04:37,912 Speaker 2: I'm Jesse Stevens and this is True Crime Conversations a 67 00:04:37,992 --> 00:04:42,032 Speaker 2: Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 68 00:04:42,072 --> 00:04:45,392 Speaker 2: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 69 00:04:45,672 --> 00:04:48,792 Speaker 2: In today's episode, I'm speaking with Anita Bingham, who was 70 00:04:48,832 --> 00:04:52,752 Speaker 2: working as a waitress at Port Arthur Historic Site's Francis 71 00:04:52,832 --> 00:05:05,672 Speaker 2: Langford Tea rooms on the day of the massacre. Anita, 72 00:05:05,712 --> 00:05:09,832 Speaker 2: what do you I remember about the morning of April 73 00:05:09,992 --> 00:05:11,632 Speaker 2: twenty eight, nineteen ninety six. 74 00:05:12,392 --> 00:05:17,791 Speaker 3: Well, I remember going to work as per usual that morning, 75 00:05:18,192 --> 00:05:20,912 Speaker 3: and it was a nice day. 76 00:05:21,112 --> 00:05:23,432 Speaker 4: It was like an autumn crisp. 77 00:05:23,272 --> 00:05:28,832 Speaker 3: Cool morning, and I was working in it's like a 78 00:05:28,832 --> 00:05:34,152 Speaker 3: little cottage called the Francis Langford Tea Rooms, and my 79 00:05:34,392 --> 00:05:37,272 Speaker 3: role there is a waitress, so I would be serving 80 00:05:37,512 --> 00:05:41,912 Speaker 3: tea and coffee and scones and lunch to customers. 81 00:05:42,232 --> 00:05:46,232 Speaker 2: You were seventeen at the time. What did your life 82 00:05:46,392 --> 00:05:49,552 Speaker 2: look like? Were you working this job while finishing off 83 00:05:49,632 --> 00:05:51,392 Speaker 2: high school or had you finished high school? 84 00:05:51,872 --> 00:05:53,312 Speaker 4: I had finished high school. 85 00:05:53,472 --> 00:05:56,672 Speaker 3: I didn't go to college, so I went straight into waitressing. 86 00:05:56,672 --> 00:05:57,512 Speaker 4: When I was fifteen. 87 00:05:58,032 --> 00:06:00,472 Speaker 3: My parents had a holiday I guess you call it 88 00:06:00,512 --> 00:06:03,512 Speaker 3: a shack down on the Tasman Peninsula and they moved 89 00:06:03,592 --> 00:06:08,392 Speaker 3: there permanently. So once I finished school in Hobart, I 90 00:06:08,432 --> 00:06:10,912 Speaker 3: went down to live with them for a while. 91 00:06:11,112 --> 00:06:11,912 Speaker 4: So I was seventeen. 92 00:06:11,992 --> 00:06:14,472 Speaker 2: Yeah at the time, had you been working at this 93 00:06:14,592 --> 00:06:15,272 Speaker 2: cafe long? 94 00:06:15,552 --> 00:06:19,832 Speaker 4: Not really, No, might have only been like a month. Yeah. 95 00:06:19,872 --> 00:06:20,752 Speaker 4: It was all quite new. 96 00:06:21,472 --> 00:06:26,432 Speaker 2: And for anyone who hasn't been to Port Arthur, can 97 00:06:26,472 --> 00:06:30,192 Speaker 2: you describe what it is and why people visit and 98 00:06:30,232 --> 00:06:32,712 Speaker 2: the setup in terms of there being cafes and stuff 99 00:06:32,752 --> 00:06:33,432 Speaker 2: for visitors. 100 00:06:33,912 --> 00:06:37,871 Speaker 3: Well Port Arthur Historic Site is actually a place where 101 00:06:37,872 --> 00:06:41,992 Speaker 3: convicts once was sent there back in the eighteenth century, 102 00:06:42,352 --> 00:06:45,952 Speaker 3: so it was a settlement for people who committed crime. 103 00:06:46,352 --> 00:06:49,472 Speaker 3: People got shipped out from the UK and yeah, I 104 00:06:49,632 --> 00:06:53,352 Speaker 3: sent to prison for minor crime for stealing a loaf 105 00:06:53,392 --> 00:06:56,872 Speaker 3: of bread or hanky chief or something. So it was 106 00:06:57,152 --> 00:07:01,912 Speaker 3: operational for quite a long time and then it eventually 107 00:07:01,952 --> 00:07:05,632 Speaker 3: ceased and it's now like an historical site to go 108 00:07:05,672 --> 00:07:09,552 Speaker 3: and visit. There's lots of old buildings with bars still 109 00:07:09,552 --> 00:07:13,192 Speaker 3: on the windows. It's been really well restored over time. 110 00:07:13,552 --> 00:07:17,192 Speaker 3: Conservation have gone in to protect the buildings from collapsing 111 00:07:17,432 --> 00:07:21,312 Speaker 3: and it's now the popular tourist destination for visitors to Tasmania. 112 00:07:21,512 --> 00:07:25,352 Speaker 3: So it's a World Heritage listed place. And yeah, so 113 00:07:25,712 --> 00:07:29,312 Speaker 3: it's a huge site. It's a massive amount of land 114 00:07:29,592 --> 00:07:33,432 Speaker 3: and lots of old buildings are still standing and people 115 00:07:33,432 --> 00:07:36,072 Speaker 3: who go would go for the day, bring a picnic, 116 00:07:36,152 --> 00:07:39,792 Speaker 3: sit in the gardens under a tree, stroll around the land, 117 00:07:40,032 --> 00:07:41,752 Speaker 3: or you could go to a cafe and have lunch. 118 00:07:42,032 --> 00:07:45,232 Speaker 4: There were two cafes on site that day. 119 00:07:46,112 --> 00:07:49,512 Speaker 2: What was your first inclination that something was wrong. 120 00:07:50,392 --> 00:07:53,992 Speaker 3: I really remember serving a ball of soup to a couple. 121 00:07:54,232 --> 00:07:56,592 Speaker 3: They was sitting on a table for two. So as 122 00:07:56,632 --> 00:07:59,632 Speaker 3: I was putting the soup down, I had the first bang. 123 00:08:00,032 --> 00:08:03,512 Speaker 3: It was a really loud bang, and then another and 124 00:08:03,512 --> 00:08:08,632 Speaker 3: then anotherah, And then my first actual reaction was, Oh, 125 00:08:08,952 --> 00:08:12,592 Speaker 3: there must be a reenactment. Because I hadn't been there 126 00:08:12,632 --> 00:08:15,152 Speaker 3: for very long working, I was still getting to know 127 00:08:15,512 --> 00:08:18,752 Speaker 3: the place, and I actually thought there were people dressed 128 00:08:18,832 --> 00:08:22,352 Speaker 3: up outside with muskets. I thought there was going to 129 00:08:22,352 --> 00:08:24,712 Speaker 3: be a show on, so I went outside. Yeah, I 130 00:08:24,752 --> 00:08:27,912 Speaker 3: remember walking out the front of the cottage and walking 131 00:08:28,472 --> 00:08:34,232 Speaker 3: towards the sounds, and the more I heard, I thought, oh, 132 00:08:34,352 --> 00:08:36,712 Speaker 3: something's not right. And when I knew something wasn't right, 133 00:08:36,752 --> 00:08:40,472 Speaker 3: it was also when I could see people ducking behind 134 00:08:41,272 --> 00:08:45,752 Speaker 3: walls of the buildings on the site. But it was 135 00:08:45,872 --> 00:08:48,032 Speaker 3: quite a distance from me. I mean, I'm talking so 136 00:08:48,152 --> 00:08:51,152 Speaker 3: many meters away. I could hear it, but I couldn't 137 00:08:51,232 --> 00:08:53,952 Speaker 3: quite see exactly what was going on. I could just 138 00:08:53,992 --> 00:08:56,952 Speaker 3: see some people running in the distance and ducking down 139 00:08:57,032 --> 00:08:58,192 Speaker 3: hiding by walls. 140 00:08:58,392 --> 00:09:01,592 Speaker 2: And where were they running from? Were they running from 141 00:09:01,792 --> 00:09:03,192 Speaker 2: the other cafe on side. 142 00:09:03,032 --> 00:09:05,911 Speaker 4: Yeah, the other cafe on site. Yeah. 143 00:09:06,112 --> 00:09:11,272 Speaker 2: And once you recognize that something was very wrong. What 144 00:09:11,432 --> 00:09:12,992 Speaker 2: was your instinct? What did you do? 145 00:09:14,152 --> 00:09:17,872 Speaker 3: My instinct was or something's just not quite right here. 146 00:09:18,072 --> 00:09:21,792 Speaker 3: So I remember going back inside. Everyone sort of heard 147 00:09:21,832 --> 00:09:23,952 Speaker 3: it as well, so we're all a bit curious about 148 00:09:23,992 --> 00:09:27,272 Speaker 3: what was going on. It was really unclear too, so 149 00:09:27,352 --> 00:09:29,672 Speaker 3: it was really difficult to know what to do. But 150 00:09:29,752 --> 00:09:32,672 Speaker 3: as time unfolded, I just remember we thought it was 151 00:09:32,712 --> 00:09:36,312 Speaker 3: best to keep people inside the cottage, and we kept 152 00:09:36,312 --> 00:09:39,712 Speaker 3: the doors locked, and I remember having to just reassure 153 00:09:39,712 --> 00:09:43,232 Speaker 3: people that things are okay, remain seated. It was just 154 00:09:43,232 --> 00:09:46,832 Speaker 3: such a long day, and I just remember making customers 155 00:09:47,232 --> 00:09:49,672 Speaker 3: team coffee and water because we had to stay inside 156 00:09:49,672 --> 00:09:51,752 Speaker 3: for quite a while until we kind of had some 157 00:09:51,832 --> 00:09:54,271 Speaker 3: clear communication as to what was going on. I think 158 00:09:55,032 --> 00:09:57,232 Speaker 3: we may have had a phone call at the cafe, 159 00:09:57,272 --> 00:10:00,352 Speaker 3: I'm not sure, or another staff member might have ran 160 00:10:00,752 --> 00:10:02,592 Speaker 3: over and knocked on the door and told us what 161 00:10:02,632 --> 00:10:04,712 Speaker 3: was going on, or year. 162 00:10:05,712 --> 00:10:10,712 Speaker 2: What happened in the minutes and hours after you heard 163 00:10:10,832 --> 00:10:12,072 Speaker 2: those gunshots. 164 00:10:12,312 --> 00:10:15,912 Speaker 3: So as time went by, I actually remember my boss 165 00:10:16,032 --> 00:10:18,312 Speaker 3: and one of the boys that was working in the 166 00:10:18,352 --> 00:10:22,152 Speaker 3: bakery at the cafe, they started to run over to 167 00:10:22,312 --> 00:10:26,032 Speaker 3: the Broad Arrow where the shootings occurred and started helping 168 00:10:26,552 --> 00:10:30,712 Speaker 3: them by running lots of burns of tea and coffee, water, 169 00:10:31,192 --> 00:10:34,912 Speaker 3: whatever they could find to help people. I think the 170 00:10:34,952 --> 00:10:38,151 Speaker 3: customers were slowly led out, maybe once we had the 171 00:10:38,232 --> 00:10:40,432 Speaker 3: all clear that he wasn't on the side. 172 00:10:40,712 --> 00:10:41,631 Speaker 4: It was a weird time. 173 00:10:41,712 --> 00:10:44,112 Speaker 3: It was really weird moment because I remember my boss 174 00:10:44,152 --> 00:10:46,312 Speaker 3: was saying, oh, you know, just clean up, clean up 175 00:10:46,312 --> 00:10:48,792 Speaker 3: as per usual. And I remember once the customers had 176 00:10:48,832 --> 00:10:51,792 Speaker 3: left the cottage, my job was to vacuum clean as 177 00:10:51,872 --> 00:10:55,832 Speaker 3: per usual. But I remember vacuuming, but I was just 178 00:10:55,872 --> 00:10:59,632 Speaker 3: so terrified because we still really didn't know where he was. 179 00:11:00,312 --> 00:11:02,312 Speaker 3: And I was in there by myself for a while, 180 00:11:02,672 --> 00:11:05,472 Speaker 3: vacuuming this cottage out, and I kept looking over my 181 00:11:05,552 --> 00:11:08,352 Speaker 3: shoulder all the time because I was just like, where 182 00:11:08,432 --> 00:11:08,992 Speaker 3: is this guy? 183 00:11:09,472 --> 00:11:10,792 Speaker 4: And I was so scared. 184 00:11:12,912 --> 00:11:17,031 Speaker 2: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jesse Stevens. 185 00:11:18,512 --> 00:11:22,192 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Anita Bingham, a waitress at the Port 186 00:11:22,352 --> 00:11:25,512 Speaker 2: Arthur Historic Site who was working on the day of 187 00:11:25,552 --> 00:11:37,151 Speaker 2: the massacre. Can you remember when you heard what had 188 00:11:37,192 --> 00:11:40,392 Speaker 2: actually taken place that day and how that felt to 189 00:11:40,512 --> 00:11:44,152 Speaker 2: learn of the tragedy that had occurred around you. 190 00:11:44,832 --> 00:11:49,192 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I actually remember giving my sister a phone 191 00:11:49,272 --> 00:11:51,192 Speaker 3: call actually, and I'm going to be just picking up 192 00:11:51,232 --> 00:11:53,391 Speaker 3: the phone and calling her and going, Hey, what the 193 00:11:53,432 --> 00:11:54,352 Speaker 3: hell's going on down here? 194 00:11:54,432 --> 00:11:56,912 Speaker 4: This is crazy? And my sister said. 195 00:11:56,792 --> 00:11:59,912 Speaker 3: Oh, okay, that's why I can see ambulances and police 196 00:11:59,992 --> 00:12:03,512 Speaker 3: CAUs screaming pusps, so she kind of wasn't sure either, 197 00:12:03,552 --> 00:12:06,352 Speaker 3: So I'm remember talking to her, and then I was 198 00:12:06,512 --> 00:12:10,192 Speaker 3: allowed to go home until dark. I remember we all 199 00:12:10,232 --> 00:12:14,192 Speaker 3: had to kind of stay on the site until police 200 00:12:14,232 --> 00:12:16,872 Speaker 3: and so forth gave the instructions it was safe to 201 00:12:16,952 --> 00:12:21,192 Speaker 3: leave the property. And I really remember going up to 202 00:12:21,232 --> 00:12:23,312 Speaker 3: the local pub up on the hill to put our 203 00:12:23,632 --> 00:12:26,232 Speaker 3: motor in and my dad was waiting for me there 204 00:12:26,792 --> 00:12:29,632 Speaker 3: at the bar, and I just remember running to him 205 00:12:30,152 --> 00:12:33,792 Speaker 3: and he grabbed me so tight, and I hugged him 206 00:12:33,952 --> 00:12:37,272 Speaker 3: so tight, and it was just like oh, because my 207 00:12:37,352 --> 00:12:40,392 Speaker 3: dad didn't know whether I was okay or not while 208 00:12:40,392 --> 00:12:43,112 Speaker 3: all this was going on, and it was just that 209 00:12:43,392 --> 00:12:45,792 Speaker 3: safety of oh, I'm in my dad's arms, and it 210 00:12:45,792 --> 00:12:47,952 Speaker 3: was a bit of a sense of relief. But it 211 00:12:47,992 --> 00:12:52,232 Speaker 3: really wasn't until I got home that night, sat down, 212 00:12:52,312 --> 00:12:55,432 Speaker 3: put on the news and the news flash in front 213 00:12:55,472 --> 00:12:59,312 Speaker 3: of my eyes with everything like the cars being stopped 214 00:12:59,352 --> 00:13:02,152 Speaker 3: on the highway, the police blocking off the highway. That's 215 00:13:02,152 --> 00:13:05,472 Speaker 3: when it really sunk in and hit me what the 216 00:13:05,472 --> 00:13:08,072 Speaker 3: hell just happened? And then because it did feel so surreal, 217 00:13:08,152 --> 00:13:08,872 Speaker 3: didn't feel real. 218 00:13:09,152 --> 00:13:12,992 Speaker 2: Well, it was the most deadly shooting in Australian history 219 00:13:13,272 --> 00:13:16,152 Speaker 2: and you were meters away. That would have just been 220 00:13:16,232 --> 00:13:19,032 Speaker 2: so terrifying, and you would have learned in the days 221 00:13:19,072 --> 00:13:22,752 Speaker 2: afterwards that I think it was thirty five victims, which 222 00:13:22,872 --> 00:13:26,631 Speaker 2: just would have been so beyond traumatic in the days afterwards. 223 00:13:26,672 --> 00:13:29,712 Speaker 2: Were you haunted by those thoughts of that could have 224 00:13:29,792 --> 00:13:30,031 Speaker 2: been me? 225 00:13:30,512 --> 00:13:32,031 Speaker 4: Oh? Gotcha, absolutely. 226 00:13:32,232 --> 00:13:34,512 Speaker 3: I mean I remember going to bed that night, I 227 00:13:34,512 --> 00:13:36,912 Speaker 3: don't remember sleeping well, and I think the next few 228 00:13:36,992 --> 00:13:39,752 Speaker 3: nights I actually had a dream of him running after 229 00:13:39,792 --> 00:13:42,032 Speaker 3: me with the gun, hunting me down. 230 00:13:42,432 --> 00:13:43,992 Speaker 4: So that was a really horrible nightmare. 231 00:13:44,512 --> 00:13:47,672 Speaker 3: And yeah, I remember getting some brief counseling at the 232 00:13:47,712 --> 00:13:50,832 Speaker 3: local SES headquarters or whatever it is in the little 233 00:13:50,832 --> 00:13:53,712 Speaker 3: shed because it's a local country town and it's so 234 00:13:53,792 --> 00:13:56,832 Speaker 3: isolated down there, we're not just sort of skipping back. 235 00:13:56,872 --> 00:14:00,992 Speaker 3: I remember it felt like forever before police or ambulance 236 00:14:01,112 --> 00:14:04,912 Speaker 3: or the helicopters all arrived to the site. Maybe the 237 00:14:04,912 --> 00:14:06,872 Speaker 3: local doctors were there on the scene as quick as 238 00:14:06,872 --> 00:14:10,592 Speaker 3: they could. But yeah, so anyway, the days after, I 239 00:14:10,672 --> 00:14:13,672 Speaker 3: just felt so lucky to be here, to be alive. 240 00:14:13,832 --> 00:14:17,792 Speaker 3: And I wasn't the one over in the Border Row. 241 00:14:18,112 --> 00:14:22,072 Speaker 3: But ironically, when I applied for work at the historic site, 242 00:14:22,392 --> 00:14:22,992 Speaker 3: they were. 243 00:14:22,832 --> 00:14:24,432 Speaker 4: Going to put me in the Broad Arrow. 244 00:14:24,512 --> 00:14:27,512 Speaker 3: Actually there was a position going there, but I ended 245 00:14:27,632 --> 00:14:29,392 Speaker 3: up at the tea rooms thankfully. 246 00:14:29,632 --> 00:14:30,272 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 247 00:14:30,872 --> 00:14:33,632 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was really I was really numb after 248 00:14:33,752 --> 00:14:36,512 Speaker 3: it all. It was just so surreal thing like you 249 00:14:36,592 --> 00:14:39,672 Speaker 3: just couldn't believe it. And I couldn't read any media. 250 00:14:39,872 --> 00:14:42,392 Speaker 3: I found it hard to read any sort of newspapers 251 00:14:42,512 --> 00:14:45,512 Speaker 3: or watch the news and things like that was quite 252 00:14:45,832 --> 00:14:46,632 Speaker 3: hard to take in. 253 00:14:46,952 --> 00:14:50,072 Speaker 2: And I can imagine it would have been everywhere because 254 00:14:50,072 --> 00:14:54,592 Speaker 2: of oh yeah scale and in the days, weeks and 255 00:14:54,872 --> 00:14:59,792 Speaker 2: even now. I mean the name Martin Bryant is infamous 256 00:14:59,832 --> 00:15:04,472 Speaker 2: in Australia. Did you learn much about him and who 257 00:15:04,512 --> 00:15:08,152 Speaker 2: he was afterwards? If you just completely shut that out? 258 00:15:08,392 --> 00:15:10,632 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just completely shut it. I didn't want to know. 259 00:15:10,872 --> 00:15:11,672 Speaker 4: I didn't want to know. 260 00:15:11,792 --> 00:15:15,152 Speaker 3: I mean, you do ask why why on earth would 261 00:15:15,152 --> 00:15:18,192 Speaker 3: someone do such a terrible thing, especially those little girls. 262 00:15:18,312 --> 00:15:21,432 Speaker 3: Especially I feel for Walter Mikhak losing his two little daughters. 263 00:15:21,432 --> 00:15:23,832 Speaker 4: Oh God, it breaks my heart. And it wasn't just 264 00:15:23,912 --> 00:15:24,352 Speaker 4: people that. 265 00:15:25,872 --> 00:15:29,152 Speaker 3: Even though people died, it's the scars that you live 266 00:15:29,232 --> 00:15:32,672 Speaker 3: with afterwards. It's still just as painful the damage he's 267 00:15:32,672 --> 00:15:34,512 Speaker 3: done to people just from you know, you've got to 268 00:15:34,552 --> 00:15:37,552 Speaker 3: live with those memories and they're hard to just switch off. 269 00:15:38,032 --> 00:15:40,552 Speaker 3: So I really did shut a lot of stuff out 270 00:15:40,552 --> 00:15:43,712 Speaker 3: about him. But I think the twentieth anniversary was when 271 00:15:43,712 --> 00:15:47,752 Speaker 3: I just started to really be more intrigued by what 272 00:15:47,912 --> 00:15:51,272 Speaker 3: happened that day. And I was interviewed once by an 273 00:15:51,312 --> 00:15:54,472 Speaker 3: author called Margaret Scott. She wrote a book called Caught Arthur, 274 00:15:54,592 --> 00:15:57,952 Speaker 3: a Story of Courage and Strengths. And I've got about 275 00:15:57,952 --> 00:16:00,832 Speaker 3: a two page section where I've told my story, and 276 00:16:00,872 --> 00:16:03,272 Speaker 3: then the books filled with other people's stories. But I've 277 00:16:03,312 --> 00:16:05,512 Speaker 3: not been able to really sit down and actually read 278 00:16:05,512 --> 00:16:08,632 Speaker 3: that book front to back. So I actually did do 279 00:16:08,712 --> 00:16:10,512 Speaker 3: that not long ago. I pulled it out of the 280 00:16:10,552 --> 00:16:12,952 Speaker 3: box at home and I read it. And I was 281 00:16:12,952 --> 00:16:16,072 Speaker 3: also given a bravery ward by the governor. And I 282 00:16:16,192 --> 00:16:18,112 Speaker 3: sometimes think, oh, I don't know why I was given 283 00:16:18,152 --> 00:16:20,912 Speaker 3: this but I guess I helped people in a way. 284 00:16:21,032 --> 00:16:23,992 Speaker 2: Of course. And I think when people talk about something 285 00:16:24,032 --> 00:16:27,312 Speaker 2: traumatic happening or a moment of crisis, they say we 286 00:16:27,432 --> 00:16:30,912 Speaker 2: go into fight or flight, yes, or freeze. And it 287 00:16:30,952 --> 00:16:34,992 Speaker 2: sounds like you kept going, which is not necessarily what 288 00:16:35,312 --> 00:16:37,272 Speaker 2: you know I might have done or anyone else. 289 00:16:37,672 --> 00:16:40,432 Speaker 3: Yeah, you adrenaline kind of kicks in and you just go, 290 00:16:40,432 --> 00:16:41,512 Speaker 3: oh my god, you just got to. 291 00:16:41,832 --> 00:16:43,352 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wanted to help people. 292 00:16:43,992 --> 00:16:46,472 Speaker 3: And I think, going back to your question afterwards too, 293 00:16:46,672 --> 00:16:48,912 Speaker 3: I did find it really difficult going to a cafe 294 00:16:48,992 --> 00:16:52,432 Speaker 3: anywhere or public places. I just wanted to sit where 295 00:16:52,432 --> 00:16:54,672 Speaker 3: I could see the door. I member, I just had 296 00:16:54,672 --> 00:16:57,152 Speaker 3: to and I still do that sometimes, which is really odd. 297 00:16:57,192 --> 00:16:58,912 Speaker 3: But I need to know who's coming and going from 298 00:16:58,952 --> 00:17:03,152 Speaker 3: the cafe, And yeah, I get a little bit spooked 299 00:17:03,152 --> 00:17:05,792 Speaker 3: if I know someone's walking in with a big bag, 300 00:17:05,952 --> 00:17:08,152 Speaker 3: because that's kind of what happened. 301 00:17:08,792 --> 00:17:11,912 Speaker 2: This is a strange question, but I'm wondering if when 302 00:17:11,952 --> 00:17:15,712 Speaker 2: the Sydney siege events happened, if that was at all 303 00:17:15,792 --> 00:17:17,752 Speaker 2: triggering for you because of the site. 304 00:17:17,992 --> 00:17:19,631 Speaker 3: It did a bit and I did watch that, I 305 00:17:19,631 --> 00:17:22,711 Speaker 3: think on Four Corners or something one night, and oh, gosh. 306 00:17:22,952 --> 00:17:25,391 Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't have, because it really triggered some things. 307 00:17:25,391 --> 00:17:27,952 Speaker 3: And I felt for those people as well. 308 00:17:27,911 --> 00:17:31,871 Speaker 2: Because it would deprive your sense of safety. That you 309 00:17:31,952 --> 00:17:34,632 Speaker 2: have an environment that's meant to be really safe and 310 00:17:35,151 --> 00:17:38,071 Speaker 2: you can't relax. Then you know you must be on 311 00:17:38,151 --> 00:17:39,552 Speaker 2: such high alert. 312 00:17:40,272 --> 00:17:44,071 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm not too bad now, but yeah, you're 313 00:17:44,111 --> 00:17:46,911 Speaker 3: just fully aware of it and anything that goes bang, 314 00:17:47,032 --> 00:17:49,111 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I jump at the sound of a 315 00:17:49,192 --> 00:17:53,151 Speaker 3: car back firing, balloon popping. I had trouble not long after. 316 00:17:53,512 --> 00:17:56,231 Speaker 3: My friends and I went to the regatta and there 317 00:17:56,232 --> 00:18:00,431 Speaker 3: were fireworks and all. It just triggered stuff for me again, 318 00:18:00,552 --> 00:18:02,631 Speaker 3: and I had to kind of like luckily my friend 319 00:18:02,671 --> 00:18:06,311 Speaker 3: was understanding that I just needed to get away. 320 00:18:06,032 --> 00:18:10,272 Speaker 2: From Have you had any contact other than that book 321 00:18:10,431 --> 00:18:14,032 Speaker 2: with any other survivors in the twenty five years since. 322 00:18:14,631 --> 00:18:17,151 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have, but not so much of regular contact 323 00:18:17,192 --> 00:18:17,751 Speaker 4: or anything. Like. 324 00:18:17,792 --> 00:18:19,992 Speaker 3: There's another guy that I know who was working on 325 00:18:20,272 --> 00:18:23,472 Speaker 3: the ferry at the time, and he was there that day, 326 00:18:23,512 --> 00:18:25,792 Speaker 3: but he hasn't really spoken to me a lot about 327 00:18:25,831 --> 00:18:28,391 Speaker 3: his experience. I don't think he really likes talking about 328 00:18:28,431 --> 00:18:28,871 Speaker 3: it much. 329 00:18:29,111 --> 00:18:31,912 Speaker 4: And another guy who was working with but yeah. 330 00:18:31,992 --> 00:18:34,272 Speaker 3: Some people just don't want to talk about it, which 331 00:18:34,311 --> 00:18:38,032 Speaker 3: is fine, but yeah, as I said after, it was 332 00:18:38,071 --> 00:18:41,271 Speaker 3: really a hard time too, because I remember being not 333 00:18:41,351 --> 00:18:43,111 Speaker 3: new to the community, but I sort of was. I 334 00:18:43,151 --> 00:18:46,871 Speaker 3: was only seventeen. I actually felt quite alone in a 335 00:18:46,911 --> 00:18:49,591 Speaker 3: weird way too. As much as the community was affected 336 00:18:50,151 --> 00:18:53,831 Speaker 3: and some people were directly affected, somewhere indirectly affected. And 337 00:18:53,871 --> 00:18:56,231 Speaker 3: I know that some businesses went broken things like that 338 00:18:56,391 --> 00:19:00,552 Speaker 3: because of it, but thankfully they got us some counseling, 339 00:19:00,831 --> 00:19:03,311 Speaker 3: and I worked with a lady for a number of. 340 00:19:03,272 --> 00:19:05,431 Speaker 4: Years and she was really good at helping me. 341 00:19:06,512 --> 00:19:11,471 Speaker 2: Understanding of trauma and PTSD has come so far since 342 00:19:11,992 --> 00:19:14,831 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, and you must have really felt that 343 00:19:14,952 --> 00:19:17,432 Speaker 2: because I imagine in the aftermath there wouldn't have been 344 00:19:17,472 --> 00:19:23,591 Speaker 2: nearly as much understanding or potentially compassion, because they're thinking, well, 345 00:19:23,992 --> 00:19:27,311 Speaker 2: you weren't physically harmed, but the what ifs that would 346 00:19:27,311 --> 00:19:29,751 Speaker 2: have played through your mind. I just can't imagine. 347 00:19:30,272 --> 00:19:31,432 Speaker 4: Oh no, that's right. 348 00:19:31,952 --> 00:19:34,311 Speaker 2: Have you been back to the site since? 349 00:19:34,631 --> 00:19:36,591 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, many times. Yeah. 350 00:19:37,192 --> 00:19:40,152 Speaker 3: So after that actual day, I remember going away for 351 00:19:40,192 --> 00:19:43,471 Speaker 3: about two or three weeks holiday. I'm pretty sure my 352 00:19:43,591 --> 00:19:46,952 Speaker 3: doctor suggested I take some time off and then when 353 00:19:46,952 --> 00:19:50,111 Speaker 3: I came back to work, it was a really weird 354 00:19:50,192 --> 00:19:52,992 Speaker 3: time because I remember coming back and like my position 355 00:19:53,111 --> 00:19:55,911 Speaker 3: was no longer available, so they put me in the 356 00:19:55,952 --> 00:19:59,752 Speaker 3: Broad Houry cafe. So it was like a temporary setup 357 00:19:59,792 --> 00:20:02,911 Speaker 3: because the cafe had been kind of wrecked, but there 358 00:20:02,952 --> 00:20:05,951 Speaker 3: was like a temporary building because they still needed to 359 00:20:05,992 --> 00:20:09,071 Speaker 3: try and get business up and running again. And I'm 360 00:20:09,391 --> 00:20:12,871 Speaker 3: just washing pots in the Broad Arrow and I didn't 361 00:20:12,911 --> 00:20:16,831 Speaker 3: really like that. I felt really uncomfortable. So yeah, I 362 00:20:16,871 --> 00:20:19,432 Speaker 3: did go back, and then many years later I think 363 00:20:19,472 --> 00:20:22,391 Speaker 3: I went That's right, I went traveling and then I 364 00:20:22,431 --> 00:20:25,152 Speaker 3: came back because where I live, in that town, there's 365 00:20:25,151 --> 00:20:27,512 Speaker 3: not a lot of employment, so Port Arthur is really 366 00:20:27,552 --> 00:20:30,951 Speaker 3: the draw card for employment for a lot of the locals. 367 00:20:31,472 --> 00:20:32,392 Speaker 4: And so I went back. 368 00:20:32,391 --> 00:20:35,671 Speaker 3: I've been back about three times, and my most recent 369 00:20:35,871 --> 00:20:38,591 Speaker 3: time would have only been about a year ago. And 370 00:20:39,032 --> 00:20:41,872 Speaker 3: I worked as a ticketing officer on the counter. And 371 00:20:41,952 --> 00:20:44,511 Speaker 3: I really loved that because I do love people. I 372 00:20:44,512 --> 00:20:47,191 Speaker 3: love tourism, I love visitors and I get excited about 373 00:20:47,311 --> 00:20:49,751 Speaker 3: them coming to see Tazzy because it's such a beautiful place. 374 00:20:50,952 --> 00:20:53,552 Speaker 3: And I really enjoyed it. But again, what I found 375 00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:56,151 Speaker 3: difficult was I was standing at the door. That was 376 00:20:56,311 --> 00:20:57,871 Speaker 3: one of my roles, and it was to meet and 377 00:20:57,911 --> 00:21:00,272 Speaker 3: greet customers as I was coming through the door, gives 378 00:21:00,311 --> 00:21:02,871 Speaker 3: them a brochure, told them about the tours on offer 379 00:21:02,952 --> 00:21:05,831 Speaker 3: and what tickets do they want to purchase. But some 380 00:21:05,871 --> 00:21:09,552 Speaker 3: people just walk in the door and they're just curious 381 00:21:09,712 --> 00:21:13,471 Speaker 3: about where the shooting happened and they're not interested in 382 00:21:13,512 --> 00:21:15,191 Speaker 3: coming to buy a ticket. Someone will just walk in 383 00:21:15,192 --> 00:21:17,151 Speaker 3: and go, oh, could you tell me where that crazy 384 00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:18,432 Speaker 3: man just went and killed everyone? 385 00:21:18,591 --> 00:21:20,552 Speaker 4: Is it where I'm standing now? Was it there? Was 386 00:21:20,591 --> 00:21:22,151 Speaker 4: it there? And oh my god? 387 00:21:22,391 --> 00:21:24,712 Speaker 3: And I'm just like, well, you know, like my whole 388 00:21:24,752 --> 00:21:28,712 Speaker 3: body just goes into this like I sort of freeze 389 00:21:28,952 --> 00:21:32,591 Speaker 3: and then I start sweating. And they don't know I 390 00:21:32,712 --> 00:21:36,031 Speaker 3: was there that day, you know, So yeah, my physical 391 00:21:36,071 --> 00:21:38,911 Speaker 3: symptoms started to just go really wolf. And then I 392 00:21:38,952 --> 00:21:40,871 Speaker 3: had to take a deep brass and kind of explain 393 00:21:40,952 --> 00:21:44,471 Speaker 3: because we're given borichues now that explains what happened that 394 00:21:44,552 --> 00:21:46,272 Speaker 3: day to Pip, So I just have to direct them 395 00:21:46,272 --> 00:21:48,752 Speaker 3: to that. And there's a memorial garden you can go 396 00:21:48,792 --> 00:21:51,751 Speaker 3: down and pay a visit to. But I found it 397 00:21:51,792 --> 00:21:54,151 Speaker 3: hard nearly on a daily basis, someone will mention the 398 00:21:54,552 --> 00:21:56,432 Speaker 3: shooting and I couldn't do it anymore. 399 00:21:56,552 --> 00:21:58,112 Speaker 4: I just had to leave. No. 400 00:21:58,232 --> 00:22:02,792 Speaker 2: I completely understand that. And finally I just wanted to 401 00:22:02,871 --> 00:22:07,432 Speaker 2: ask in terms of the long term effect of Port 402 00:22:07,552 --> 00:22:10,432 Speaker 2: Arthur and what happened that day. I've read a lot 403 00:22:10,472 --> 00:22:14,992 Speaker 2: about post traumatic growth and that sometimes having an instance 404 00:22:15,151 --> 00:22:18,472 Speaker 2: like this it can bring about positive psychological change from 405 00:22:18,512 --> 00:22:22,471 Speaker 2: these sorts of adverse circumstances. Is that something you relate 406 00:22:22,512 --> 00:22:22,912 Speaker 2: with at all? 407 00:22:23,391 --> 00:22:25,111 Speaker 4: Oh definitely? Oh yeah. 408 00:22:25,311 --> 00:22:27,831 Speaker 3: I really learned a lot from that day, and what 409 00:22:27,911 --> 00:22:33,431 Speaker 3: I learned most of all was life is just so short. 410 00:22:34,111 --> 00:22:37,512 Speaker 4: Gosh, you know, one minute Yearnix, You're not And. 411 00:22:37,431 --> 00:22:39,472 Speaker 3: I just was like, oh my god, I was so 412 00:22:39,591 --> 00:22:42,791 Speaker 3: close to that possibly happening to me that day, and 413 00:22:42,911 --> 00:22:45,871 Speaker 3: I just went man, you know, I remember just being 414 00:22:45,911 --> 00:22:49,991 Speaker 3: in the counselor's chair seventeen, and I had a bucket 415 00:22:49,992 --> 00:22:50,631 Speaker 3: list of stuff. 416 00:22:50,671 --> 00:22:51,472 Speaker 4: I'm like, right, I. 417 00:22:51,431 --> 00:22:52,792 Speaker 3: Want to do this, I want to do that, and 418 00:22:52,911 --> 00:22:55,071 Speaker 3: I just wanted to live life to the fullest and 419 00:22:55,111 --> 00:22:57,272 Speaker 3: I did. I went around Australia in a camper van 420 00:22:57,351 --> 00:22:59,232 Speaker 3: when I was twenty one, and then I took off 421 00:22:59,272 --> 00:23:03,831 Speaker 3: overseas and traveled the world many times now, and yeah, 422 00:23:03,871 --> 00:23:07,191 Speaker 3: it's maybe living the moment. And I've still got to 423 00:23:07,232 --> 00:23:10,752 Speaker 3: really dislike to guns. I struggle watching any kind of 424 00:23:10,831 --> 00:23:14,512 Speaker 3: violent films shooting. I still get frustrated when I hear 425 00:23:14,552 --> 00:23:17,471 Speaker 3: America's got shootings going on and that. But it just 426 00:23:17,512 --> 00:23:19,071 Speaker 3: made me want to live life to the fullest. And 427 00:23:19,111 --> 00:23:21,071 Speaker 3: that's something that's changed my perspective. 428 00:23:21,192 --> 00:23:24,591 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something it seems like some victims of crime 429 00:23:24,831 --> 00:23:27,712 Speaker 2: relate with. Then, if there's one other thing we can 430 00:23:27,752 --> 00:23:31,392 Speaker 2: be somewhat thankful for from Port Arthur, it's the changing 431 00:23:31,431 --> 00:23:35,032 Speaker 2: gun laws and that a mass shooting like this has 432 00:23:35,151 --> 00:23:37,751 Speaker 2: not happened again and hopefully will never happen again in 433 00:23:37,752 --> 00:23:38,391 Speaker 2: this country. 434 00:23:38,752 --> 00:23:41,272 Speaker 4: Yeah, hopefully. I think. Good on to John Howard. 435 00:23:41,311 --> 00:23:44,071 Speaker 3: He got quite onto it straight after those gun laws, 436 00:23:44,831 --> 00:23:47,871 Speaker 3: But I mean they're still around and there's still controversy. 437 00:23:48,272 --> 00:23:48,391 Speaker 4: You know. 438 00:23:48,472 --> 00:23:50,552 Speaker 3: I've heard of all different sizes of the story. I've 439 00:23:50,552 --> 00:23:53,871 Speaker 3: heard farmers need guns for animals and that, and I 440 00:23:53,952 --> 00:23:55,631 Speaker 3: get that, but it's just when they end up in 441 00:23:55,671 --> 00:23:58,191 Speaker 3: the wrong hands, really, and you know, and I always 442 00:23:58,232 --> 00:24:01,151 Speaker 3: wonder why, you know, what went through his mind that day. 443 00:24:01,351 --> 00:24:02,952 Speaker 4: And I've heard lots of different. 444 00:24:02,631 --> 00:24:05,552 Speaker 3: Things like, oh, but you know, he was bullied and 445 00:24:05,591 --> 00:24:08,232 Speaker 3: he had esperg whatever honest you may have had. 446 00:24:08,311 --> 00:24:10,631 Speaker 4: I don't know, but I sort of don't want to 447 00:24:10,671 --> 00:24:12,032 Speaker 4: know in a way either better. 448 00:24:12,871 --> 00:24:16,071 Speaker 3: Yeah, you just can't understand or someone could do such 449 00:24:16,071 --> 00:24:17,032 Speaker 3: an evil thing. 450 00:24:19,351 --> 00:24:22,591 Speaker 2: Anita Bingham was awarded a Bravery Medal by the Governor 451 00:24:22,631 --> 00:24:24,591 Speaker 2: General for her efforts on the day of the Port 452 00:24:24,671 --> 00:24:27,751 Speaker 2: Arthur massacre. She also has a letter from the Queen 453 00:24:27,992 --> 00:24:32,871 Speaker 2: commending her efforts. This year marks twenty five years since 454 00:24:32,911 --> 00:24:36,391 Speaker 2: the traumatic events of April twenty eighth, nineteen ninety six, 455 00:24:37,032 --> 00:24:39,831 Speaker 2: but they live on in the memories of survivors and 456 00:24:39,871 --> 00:24:44,192 Speaker 2: the Australian public. True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea 457 00:24:44,272 --> 00:24:48,831 Speaker 2: podcast hosted by me Jesse Stevens. Sound design is by 458 00:24:48,871 --> 00:24:51,751 Speaker 2: Ian Camaliary and our producer is g R. 459 00:24:51,831 --> 00:24:52,232 Speaker 1: Moulan. 460 00:24:53,512 --> 00:24:55,471 Speaker 2: If you'd like to find out more about the show, 461 00:24:55,752 --> 00:24:59,191 Speaker 2: don't forget to join our online community. Just search for 462 00:24:59,272 --> 00:25:02,952 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations on Facebook and make a request to join.