WEBVTT - More Masculine Energy, Please 0:00:10.942 --> 0:00:14.022 We are going to look back at ourselves walking to 0:00:14.102 --> 0:00:19.302 work with a pitcher like Jack and drill off the train. Basically, 0:00:19.381 --> 0:00:22.101 what we have is a backpack with a straw. We 0:00:22.222 --> 0:00:26.782 have a hiking back where we can caramill constantly be hydrating. 0:00:27.342 --> 0:00:30.982 Hydrating is fine, but I reckon out of control. It's 0:00:31.022 --> 0:00:31.902 completely out of cans. 0:00:31.942 --> 0:00:33.462 I made a wheely bag from my water bottle. 0:00:34.582 --> 0:00:37.302 Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what 0:00:37.382 --> 0:00:40.822 women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the fifteenth of January. 0:00:41.182 --> 0:00:42.902 I am Holly Waynwright. 0:00:42.622 --> 0:00:44.822 I'm Me Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:44.942 --> 0:00:49.102 And on the show today, more masculine energy please. That's 0:00:49.142 --> 0:00:51.101 what one of the world's most powerful men says is 0:00:51.102 --> 0:00:53.102 missing from everywhere right now? 0:00:53.222 --> 0:00:53.862 Is he right? 0:00:54.422 --> 0:00:56.342 Also, are you and your mates in the catch up 0:00:56.422 --> 0:00:58.742 track if you have an agenda running in your notes 0:00:58.742 --> 0:01:01.302 app for your next dinner, then yes you are. And 0:01:02.142 --> 0:01:04.502 are you trying to eat more protein while wearing your 0:01:04.502 --> 0:01:07.661 weighted vest and obsessing about your sleep hygiene? Well you 0:01:07.702 --> 0:01:09.862 are bang on the health trends for two I need 0:01:09.902 --> 0:01:13.581 twenty five. But why anyway? 0:01:13.662 --> 0:01:17.422 First, mere Friedman, young man, there's no need to feel down, 0:01:17.862 --> 0:01:21.382 young man, pick yourself off the ground, in case you 0:01:21.422 --> 0:01:23.742 missed it. Even when you're an American president, booking a 0:01:23.742 --> 0:01:27.582 bound for your party is hard, especially when you're Donald Trump, 0:01:27.622 --> 0:01:30.662 who's set to do inauguration two point zero next Tuesday 0:01:31.182 --> 0:01:34.902 Australian time. So thank god for the Village People who 0:01:34.982 --> 0:01:38.902 will be performing at the inauguration. They'll be performing Ymca 0:01:39.222 --> 0:01:40.422 among some of their other. 0:01:40.342 --> 0:01:43.742 Hits, because that's the song that he has kind of 0:01:43.982 --> 0:01:47.422 popularized all over again with his dancing Yeah, which. 0:01:47.222 --> 0:01:51.222 Makes absolutely no sense because it's not relevant, But that's 0:01:51.262 --> 0:01:53.182 the kind of chaos that we expect and we're here 0:01:53.222 --> 0:01:54.662 for in the Trump administration. 0:01:54.862 --> 0:01:57.302 So one of the things that would happen at those 0:01:57.382 --> 0:02:00.262 rallies was that they tried to just make them into parties, 0:02:00.302 --> 0:02:02.702 because there's not a lot of places that older people 0:02:02.782 --> 0:02:05.222 get to go and have a dance and listen to 0:02:05.302 --> 0:02:07.862 fun tunes. So there was one rally that he did 0:02:07.902 --> 0:02:11.422 where the autoc you didn't work or something happened, and 0:02:11.462 --> 0:02:15.222 he just played music and danced. So even though interestingly 0:02:15.262 --> 0:02:19.582 the Village People had some fights with the Trump campaign 0:02:19.742 --> 0:02:24.621 about using their music unauthorized, they've now just kissed the 0:02:24.702 --> 0:02:28.422 ring like everybody else, and they're doing the show for 0:02:28.462 --> 0:02:30.422 a few reasons. So I just want to go back 0:02:30.422 --> 0:02:35.462 to twenty seventeen because back then the first inauguration, everyone 0:02:35.582 --> 0:02:39.542 said no. Elton, John Celendon, Garth Brooks, Kiss, Andrea Bicceelli, 0:02:39.582 --> 0:02:42.061 even Charlotte Church. They all said no because they said 0:02:42.062 --> 0:02:45.102 they didn't like Trump. So he ended up with I 0:02:45.181 --> 0:02:46.702 got a list of the people he ended up with. 0:02:46.822 --> 0:02:48.622 I hadn't heard of any of them. There was a 0:02:48.662 --> 0:02:50.182 band called Three Doors Down. 0:02:50.302 --> 0:02:51.742 Three Doors Down millennials know. 0:02:51.742 --> 0:02:52.382 Them, okay. 0:02:52.702 --> 0:02:56.302 Also the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the Radio City Rockets. 0:02:56.342 --> 0:02:58.262 There were a bunch of others that I'd never heard 0:02:58.302 --> 0:03:00.822 of before. So it was a little light on star power, 0:03:01.102 --> 0:03:03.902 he would say. The Village people have said that they 0:03:04.142 --> 0:03:07.102 are doing it for all very lofty reasons. They've said 0:03:07.102 --> 0:03:09.862 that they believe that music is to be perfre formed 0:03:09.862 --> 0:03:13.422 without regard to politics. They said. They also expressed their 0:03:13.422 --> 0:03:17.181 hope that their song Ymca, which features look, the Village 0:03:17.181 --> 0:03:21.302 People traditionally have been a gay band. They've been, you know, 0:03:21.462 --> 0:03:26.022 representing different people in the village. It's become problematic for 0:03:26.102 --> 0:03:28.382 other reasons if I look at it, because it used 0:03:28.422 --> 0:03:29.702 to have an American Indian. 0:03:29.782 --> 0:03:31.542 They came out of the New York disco scene in 0:03:31.542 --> 0:03:34.422 the seventies. That's the context of the Village people is 0:03:34.422 --> 0:03:36.222 that that's where they came. 0:03:36.422 --> 0:03:39.422 So they're obviously gay icons. But are they gay men? 0:03:39.862 --> 0:03:41.902 They have been, they were. 0:03:42.022 --> 0:03:45.302 I think they're also a changing cast of people, all right, 0:03:46.262 --> 0:03:48.942 exactly like Manpower, Yeah, or the Chippendales. 0:03:49.142 --> 0:03:50.702 I had no idea where you're talking about. 0:03:50.742 --> 0:03:53.302 Okay, there's sort of groups of mousetripers that are a brand. 0:03:54.142 --> 0:03:58.942 They're not, no, but they've been different characters over the years. Anyway, 0:03:59.862 --> 0:04:03.382 they say they really love how much joy their song 0:04:03.782 --> 0:04:07.382 brings Trump and also they have made a lot of 0:04:07.422 --> 0:04:11.902 money because they're song is back on the leaderboard of 0:04:12.262 --> 0:04:12.782 the charts. 0:04:12.942 --> 0:04:15.102 Is it is it bad that I look at this 0:04:15.182 --> 0:04:17.421 story and I just go like them. 0:04:17.582 --> 0:04:19.541 Oh, for sure, let them, let them. 0:04:19.741 --> 0:04:23.861 Trump would also, She'll be singing the Star Spangled banner. 0:04:23.902 --> 0:04:26.902 For sure, let them. I just think it's quite funny, 0:04:27.022 --> 0:04:30.381 particularly because remember when we performed YMCA and that Mama 0:04:30.421 --> 0:04:34.661 Mire out loud shows that it was going to become 0:04:34.821 --> 0:04:38.141 the anthem, a mega anthem of Donald Trump's two point 0:04:38.181 --> 0:04:40.661 zero presidency. We didn't know, but maybe on some level 0:04:40.662 --> 0:04:40.981 we did. 0:04:41.222 --> 0:04:44.821 The Village People themselves commented on their Facebook page. They said, 0:04:44.821 --> 0:04:47.301 we are announcing today that Village People have accepted an 0:04:47.342 --> 0:04:52.061 invitation from President elect Trump's campaign to participate in inaugural activities, 0:04:52.101 --> 0:04:55.501 including at least one event with President elect Trump. We 0:04:55.582 --> 0:04:57.702 know this won't make some of you happy to hear. However, 0:04:57.741 --> 0:05:00.421 we believe that music is to be performed without regard 0:05:00.501 --> 0:05:04.382 to politics. They said. Our song YMCA is a global 0:05:04.421 --> 0:05:06.861 anthem that hopefully helps bring the country together after a 0:05:06.902 --> 0:05:11.301 tumultuous and divided campaign where our prefer candidate lost. Therefore, 0:05:11.421 --> 0:05:13.662 we believe it's now time to bring the country together 0:05:13.941 --> 0:05:16.382 with music, which is why Village People will perform at 0:05:16.421 --> 0:05:17.181 various events. 0:05:17.582 --> 0:05:20.702 That's interesting that Trump will still have them, even though 0:05:20.702 --> 0:05:22.701 they've said it wasn't our proferred candidate. 0:05:23.142 --> 0:05:24.502 He's got to take what he can get. 0:05:25.381 --> 0:05:28.261 He's also quite good at forgiving as long as you 0:05:28.342 --> 0:05:30.421 admit that you were wrong and he was right. I 0:05:30.421 --> 0:05:32.461 think he likes that. So they were like, we're in. 0:05:32.582 --> 0:05:36.342 We'd like come on him, I guess him and elon 0:05:36.462 --> 0:05:41.822 up there giving it loads with the arm pumps. 0:05:44.861 --> 0:05:48.382 Mark Zuckerberg, the founder and CEO of Meta thinks the 0:05:48.421 --> 0:05:53.261 corporate world needs more masculine energy please. Speaking to Joe Rogan, 0:05:53.501 --> 0:05:54.621 here's what he said. 0:05:54.941 --> 0:05:58.662 The kind of masculine energy I think is good. Yeah, obviously, 0:05:58.981 --> 0:06:01.701 you know, society has plenty of that, but I think 0:06:01.741 --> 0:06:04.902 corporate culture was really like trying to get away from it. 0:06:05.582 --> 0:06:08.621 And I do think that there's just something that it's like, 0:06:08.821 --> 0:06:11.662 all these forms of energy are good, and I think 0:06:11.702 --> 0:06:15.501 having a culture that like celebrates the aggression a bit 0:06:15.501 --> 0:06:19.582 more has its own merits that are really positive. That 0:06:19.621 --> 0:06:22.301 has been a kind of a positive experience for me, 0:06:22.702 --> 0:06:24.222 just like having a thing that I can just like 0:06:24.421 --> 0:06:28.462 do with my guy friends and life. Yeah, and it's 0:06:28.582 --> 0:06:30.421 like we're just like beat each other a bit. 0:06:30.941 --> 0:06:31.342 It's good. 0:06:31.741 --> 0:06:35.382 It is good. It's good. I could see your point 0:06:35.381 --> 0:06:39.261 though about Yeah, corporate culture, when do you think that happened? 0:06:39.702 --> 0:06:41.541 Was that a slow shift because I think it used 0:06:41.541 --> 0:06:43.622 to be very masculine and I used to be I 0:06:43.702 --> 0:06:45.782 think it was kind of hyper aggressive at one point. 0:06:45.861 --> 0:06:47.662 No, And look, and I think part of the the 0:06:47.702 --> 0:06:49.382 intent on all these things I think is good. 0:06:49.621 --> 0:06:49.782 Right. 0:06:49.821 --> 0:06:52.501 It's I like, I do think that if you're a 0:06:52.541 --> 0:06:54.741 woman going into a company it probably feels like it's 0:06:54.741 --> 0:06:57.422 too masculine. It's like there isn't enough of the kind 0:06:57.421 --> 0:06:59.582 of the energy that you may naturally have, and it 0:06:59.621 --> 0:07:01.222 probably feels like there are all these things that are 0:07:01.262 --> 0:07:03.141 set up that are biased against you. And that's not 0:07:03.181 --> 0:07:05.021 good either, because you want you want women to be 0:07:05.022 --> 0:07:08.662 able to succeed and like have companies that can unlock 0:07:08.662 --> 0:07:10.982 all the value from having great people no matter what 0:07:11.022 --> 0:07:12.102 their background or gender. 0:07:12.102 --> 0:07:12.262 You know. 0:07:12.502 --> 0:07:14.862 But I think these things can always go a little far. 0:07:15.182 --> 0:07:17.662 And I think it's one thing to say we want 0:07:17.662 --> 0:07:19.662 to be kind of like welcoming and make a good 0:07:19.742 --> 0:07:23.422 environment for everyone, and I think it's another to basically 0:07:23.462 --> 0:07:27.021 say that masculinity is bad. And I just think we 0:07:27.102 --> 0:07:30.381 kind of swung culturally to that part of the spectrum 0:07:30.381 --> 0:07:33.461 where you know, it's all like, okay, masculinity is toxic. 0:07:33.622 --> 0:07:35.622 We have to like get rid of it completely. It's like, no, 0:07:35.742 --> 0:07:37.662 like both of these things are good, right. It's like 0:07:37.702 --> 0:07:40.742 you want like feminine energy, you want masculine energy. You're 0:07:40.782 --> 0:07:43.021 going to have parts of society that have more of 0:07:43.062 --> 0:07:44.742 one or the other. I think that that's all good, 0:07:44.782 --> 0:07:47.542 But I do think the corporate culture sort of had 0:07:47.662 --> 0:07:51.342 swung towards being this somewhat more neutered thing. 0:07:51.622 --> 0:07:54.702 The conversation went for nearly three hours, and I went 0:07:54.742 --> 0:07:58.302 and listened to the context. Full disclosure, I didn't listen 0:07:58.342 --> 0:07:59.662 to this three hours, but I listened to what he 0:07:59.702 --> 0:08:03.182 said on either side, and he did say that feminine 0:08:03.062 --> 0:08:06.701 and masculine energies are both beneficial for the workplace and 0:08:06.742 --> 0:08:10.262 that he wants women to succeed. Is Also it's important 0:08:10.262 --> 0:08:12.502 to note that along with putting an end to fact checking, 0:08:12.662 --> 0:08:16.821 which we talked about on Monday's episode, Zuckerberg has also 0:08:16.941 --> 0:08:21.782 said his ending diversity, equity and inclusion programs and disbanding 0:08:21.982 --> 0:08:25.622 Meta's DEI team. Because this is a quote, the term 0:08:25.662 --> 0:08:28.862 has become charged, in part because it is understood by 0:08:28.862 --> 0:08:32.102 some as a practice that suggests preferential treatment of some 0:08:32.222 --> 0:08:36.062 groups over others. Yet if you read the fine print, 0:08:36.222 --> 0:08:39.781 the company still claims to be prioritizing diversity, but more 0:08:39.822 --> 0:08:44.742 so just rejecting the wording so they'll focus on eliminating bias. 0:08:45.142 --> 0:08:48.982 But anyway, back to masculine energy, did we ever really 0:08:49.062 --> 0:08:53.062 lose it? And does Mark Zuckerberg actually have a point? 0:08:53.342 --> 0:08:55.862 Maya? I thought it was really important to listen to 0:08:55.902 --> 0:08:58.782 the context of that, because the headlines that you'll read are, oh, 0:08:58.822 --> 0:09:01.622 Mark Zuckerberg says we need to bring more masculine energy back, 0:09:01.662 --> 0:09:04.622 and two out of three Meta employees are already men. 0:09:04.662 --> 0:09:07.462 And how much masculine energy does he need? I think 0:09:07.502 --> 0:09:09.742 a couple of things that stood out to me. One 0:09:09.822 --> 0:09:14.222 is that he prefaced that by saying, interestingly, I grew 0:09:14.262 --> 0:09:16.742 up with three sisters, no brothers. I have three daughters, 0:09:16.782 --> 0:09:21.062 no sons. Now he didn't then say something positive about that, 0:09:21.822 --> 0:09:23.902 but he then went on to say, so, I think 0:09:23.942 --> 0:09:26.182 that gives you a really good indication of where he's 0:09:26.222 --> 0:09:30.142 coming from. He then went on to say what we 0:09:30.182 --> 0:09:33.422 heard about about masculine energy in the workplace. I think 0:09:33.462 --> 0:09:36.342 this becomes a little bit of a raw shark test. 0:09:36.382 --> 0:09:38.182 I never know how to say that. You know the 0:09:38.222 --> 0:09:40.942 ink blot where you see what is in your own 0:09:41.022 --> 0:09:44.142 mind and you project onto it how you feel about something. 0:09:44.382 --> 0:09:47.862 The term masculine energy can mean really different things to 0:09:47.902 --> 0:09:51.142 different people. For a lot of women, the hackles go 0:09:51.222 --> 0:09:53.542 up because it's like, oh, that means sexual harassment. That 0:09:53.662 --> 0:09:55.422 means people being assholes. 0:09:55.582 --> 0:09:58.022 So that means people shouting, how do you define it? 0:09:58.062 --> 0:10:00.382 And talking over you? And meetings and all those. 0:10:00.262 --> 0:10:03.222 Things exactly, and I could define it like that, and 0:10:03.302 --> 0:10:05.782 I think in some cases it is. That's why it's 0:10:05.822 --> 0:10:08.542 so subjective. In other cases, when I'm looking at it 0:10:08.582 --> 0:10:12.262 from a corporate point, you as a business owner, I 0:10:12.302 --> 0:10:17.782 think what it speaks to is that qualities like competitiveness 0:10:18.462 --> 0:10:21.302 aggression and I don't mean actual aggression, but I mean 0:10:21.462 --> 0:10:25.462 like hunger. I don't mean it's like hard work versus 0:10:25.502 --> 0:10:28.262 not hard work. I think the workplace really had to change, 0:10:28.302 --> 0:10:31.382 and a lot of more what are called feminized cultural 0:10:31.502 --> 0:10:38.182 values like kindness and sensitivity and consideration and you know, 0:10:38.222 --> 0:10:40.542 things around work life balance and everything. I think we 0:10:40.622 --> 0:10:43.662 really needed a correction there, and I'm really glad that 0:10:43.702 --> 0:10:46.982 we had one. But I think that those things have 0:10:47.062 --> 0:10:52.502 to coexist with competitiveness in business. And I'm very competitive. 0:10:52.502 --> 0:10:54.462 But if you're talking in these generalizations, I. 0:10:54.462 --> 0:10:57.142 Went really deep on what masculine energy even means, because 0:10:57.142 --> 0:10:59.262 it's not just him using it. I have heard in 0:10:59.302 --> 0:11:02.862 the last maybe two years, these terms of masculine and 0:11:02.862 --> 0:11:05.302 feminine coming up way more at a time when I 0:11:05.302 --> 0:11:06.662 thought we were sort of done with them. 0:11:06.582 --> 0:11:08.622 And I think we all have both in us. 0:11:08.902 --> 0:11:11.062 Yes, exactly, it's right. I don't think that you know, 0:11:11.302 --> 0:11:14.942 mass skuline energy belongs to men necessarily, but I looked 0:11:14.942 --> 0:11:19.662 it up and it's broadly defined as sort of ambition, 0:11:20.102 --> 0:11:23.622 reason and logic, strength and independence and having a win 0:11:23.702 --> 0:11:27.862 at all costs mentality. Right. And I think that the 0:11:27.902 --> 0:11:30.662 clue to what Mark Zuckerberg meant was in what he said, 0:11:30.702 --> 0:11:34.622 because he had the word aggressive in there, right. And 0:11:34.662 --> 0:11:39.702 the reason my back went up is because that aggressiveness, 0:11:39.742 --> 0:11:45.062 which I see, is very synonymous with capitalism. Look at 0:11:45.062 --> 0:11:47.702 where it's got us. I don't mean look at where 0:11:47.782 --> 0:11:49.502 men have got us. I mean look at where the 0:11:49.902 --> 0:11:53.982 privileging of masculine energy has got us to climate catastrophe. 0:11:54.302 --> 0:11:57.822 It's got us to incredible waste, it's got us international conflict. 0:11:58.262 --> 0:12:02.062 It's got us to a wealth disparity that is not closing. 0:12:02.542 --> 0:12:05.742 It's got us to a gender pay gap, like it's 0:12:05.782 --> 0:12:09.302 got us to a point where Fortune five hundred companies, 0:12:09.582 --> 0:12:12.662 they're all male leaders. I mean, to suggest that it 0:12:12.702 --> 0:12:15.422 has become feminized is laughable. 0:12:15.422 --> 0:12:20.022 At I agree with that because I think you're right Mia, 0:12:20.102 --> 0:12:22.342 that you read this headline and you take what you 0:12:22.382 --> 0:12:24.662 want from it. So the people like me who got 0:12:24.662 --> 0:12:27.261 their backs up by it are taking He means there 0:12:27.302 --> 0:12:30.102 are too many women whatever. But also the people who 0:12:30.142 --> 0:12:32.062 agree with him will see what they want to see too, 0:12:32.142 --> 0:12:34.622 and they won't listen to the context, and they do 0:12:34.822 --> 0:12:39.622 feel like the world is being skewed towards women, and 0:12:39.662 --> 0:12:42.542 it's not true. As you've just pointed out, Jesse, the 0:12:42.622 --> 0:12:46.422 top ten most powerful business leaders in America are all men. 0:12:46.582 --> 0:12:49.462 One woman on there, she's the GM of General Motors. 0:12:49.662 --> 0:12:53.622 They are all men. They have all built these enormously successful, 0:12:54.422 --> 0:12:57.662 possibly the most influential private companies that have ever existed. 0:12:57.662 --> 0:12:59.702 When you think about the fact they control everything we read, 0:12:59.782 --> 0:13:02.782 everything we watch, everything we talk about. They were all 0:13:02.822 --> 0:13:08.822 built on these very masculine energy. Well exactly what I 0:13:08.862 --> 0:13:10.702 mean is his point is that we need to get 0:13:10.702 --> 0:13:13.342 back to it. It never went away. Everything was built 0:13:13.422 --> 0:13:16.542 on masculine energy. So it's like it's a straw man, 0:13:16.622 --> 0:13:19.142 it's a red herring, it's disagree, it's throwing meat to 0:13:19.142 --> 0:13:22.062 a base. Because it's like saying we've lost so much 0:13:22.142 --> 0:13:24.822 because women are taking over. It's like, no, we haven't, 0:13:24.982 --> 0:13:29.022 because women haven't taken over. Interestingly, in Australia, if you 0:13:29.062 --> 0:13:32.382 look at the most successful business people in Australia. About 0:13:32.382 --> 0:13:35.102 four of the top six are women, right, And I 0:13:35.142 --> 0:13:37.502 know it's not as simple as male female, But what 0:13:37.662 --> 0:13:39.742 the people who are agreeing with Zuckerberg and love the 0:13:39.782 --> 0:13:42.462 Joe Rogan Show and feel very strongly that the world 0:13:42.542 --> 0:13:44.742 needs to be put right again, and Donald Trump is 0:13:44.782 --> 0:13:47.662 one of them. They're talking about a very specific kind 0:13:47.662 --> 0:13:52.062 of masculinity, which is physically aggressive, strong man. How many 0:13:52.062 --> 0:13:55.022 times did Trump talk about that in his campaigning? Is 0:13:55.062 --> 0:13:57.622 talking about who's going to stand up for you? It's 0:13:57.662 --> 0:14:01.662 a very traditional, very masculine vibe. 0:14:01.862 --> 0:14:04.822 Yeah, I agree with that. It chills me that vibe, 0:14:05.182 --> 0:14:10.222 So I don't see it as about men and women specifically. 0:14:10.582 --> 0:14:12.822 And I thought what was also really interesting, which is 0:14:12.862 --> 0:14:16.342 worth pointing out as a conversation progressed. Joe Rogan really 0:14:16.342 --> 0:14:18.622 pushed back and sounded a word of caution and said, 0:14:18.622 --> 0:14:21.262 I think it's really important that we have both, which 0:14:21.302 --> 0:14:23.222 is true and which of course I agree as well. 0:14:23.422 --> 0:14:25.102 But the other thing that I think you can hear 0:14:25.182 --> 0:14:29.382 in him about him personally, he's come from a family 0:14:29.462 --> 0:14:32.902 of women, he lives in a house of women. I 0:14:32.942 --> 0:14:38.382 think that we have really pathologized masculine energy and we're 0:14:38.502 --> 0:14:41.782 likely to call it toxic when boy's rough house, when 0:14:41.822 --> 0:14:45.062 boys want to be physical, when boys want to run around, 0:14:45.222 --> 0:14:48.862 we pathologize that. We say they've got this condition, they've 0:14:48.862 --> 0:14:53.022 got this problem, it's toxic. And this idea that everybody 0:14:53.062 --> 0:14:56.902 should be more like women. I think that the hair 0:14:57.102 --> 0:14:59.542 is truth to it, but I think we've made men 0:14:59.582 --> 0:15:03.582 feel really ashamed of them some of their masculine traits. 0:15:03.742 --> 0:15:05.662 The point that I agree with is that we have 0:15:05.742 --> 0:15:10.822 conflated masculinity with toxic masculinity. Yes, in terms of having 0:15:10.822 --> 0:15:12.782 a handbook of how to be a man in twenty 0:15:12.822 --> 0:15:14.902 twenty five, I'm not sure that that exists yet. And 0:15:14.942 --> 0:15:18.902 I think that Andrew Taitan his popularity is proof of 0:15:18.942 --> 0:15:23.022 a wide open gap, which is that some men feel 0:15:23.022 --> 0:15:26.302 as though they don't have a blueprint for masculinity. And 0:15:26.342 --> 0:15:28.662 you've got a Taylor Swift concert and women go and 0:15:28.742 --> 0:15:33.502 celebrate femininity in a really innocent way. But we see 0:15:33.502 --> 0:15:36.542 something sinister about a gathering of a lot of men, 0:15:37.022 --> 0:15:42.142 not for entirely ludicrous reasons, like for reasons such as 0:15:42.422 --> 0:15:46.262 domestic violence and sexual harassment and everything we know about 0:15:46.542 --> 0:15:50.582 what happens in some all male cultures, but that leads 0:15:51.302 --> 0:15:53.942 men and boys in a difficult. 0:15:53.382 --> 0:15:57.822 Spot, always feeling ashamed of some of their instincts, which 0:15:57.902 --> 0:15:58.422 might be a. 0:15:58.422 --> 0:16:02.262 Rough house or shout or run maybe, but one of 0:16:02.302 --> 0:16:04.022 the things that I would hate to be lost in 0:16:04.062 --> 0:16:07.622 this rush to re embrace musculinity, which even Zuckerberg says 0:16:07.862 --> 0:16:11.942 he's found his masculine through his enthusiasm for mma. That 0:16:12.102 --> 0:16:16.302 is a massively, quickly growing, enormous movement among young men. 0:16:16.622 --> 0:16:19.102 And I'd push back a tiny bit on the notion 0:16:19.222 --> 0:16:21.862 that women have Taylor Swift concerts to gather at. Who's 0:16:21.942 --> 0:16:23.382 usually filling those stadiums? 0:16:23.462 --> 0:16:23.622 Right? 0:16:23.902 --> 0:16:26.062 Men have plenty of and I'm not suggesting for a 0:16:26.102 --> 0:16:28.102 second the sports games are only full of men, but 0:16:28.222 --> 0:16:32.342 traditionally they dominate the culture and public spaces. So let's 0:16:32.502 --> 0:16:34.742 again not get too that. 0:16:34.742 --> 0:16:39.662 Those public expressions like even a football grand final or whatever, 0:16:39.742 --> 0:16:43.062 and very rightfully has now been cast, is can we 0:16:43.062 --> 0:16:45.222 talk about what happens after the football grand final, which 0:16:45.302 --> 0:16:48.262 is a lot of these men leave and domestic violencing 0:16:48.422 --> 0:16:49.142 a little bit of that. 0:16:49.182 --> 0:16:50.942 We talk about that for the first time because we 0:16:50.942 --> 0:16:53.302 weren't talking about it for fifty years. Actually, what we 0:16:53.342 --> 0:16:55.782 talk about that's all over the newspapers and all over 0:16:55.822 --> 0:16:57.982 the television, all over everything is the game, right, So 0:16:58.062 --> 0:17:01.142 I think there's male culture is not in danger. That 0:17:01.262 --> 0:17:05.181 is my general point. But also what worries me is 0:17:05.262 --> 0:17:07.742 just this sort of re embracing of these very traditional 0:17:07.821 --> 0:17:09.942 roles because for many people, and our talk go about 0:17:09.982 --> 0:17:13.462 myself diversifying, the idea of male and female energy has 0:17:13.462 --> 0:17:16.022 been so freeing we were all locked in these cages. 0:17:16.061 --> 0:17:18.542 You know, I am allowed to be the breadwinner. My 0:17:18.621 --> 0:17:21.621 partner is allowed to express his nurturing side as lead parent. 0:17:21.702 --> 0:17:23.661 My daughter can play the football, while my son, who 0:17:23.702 --> 0:17:25.982 would much rather go and be in a play, can 0:17:26.061 --> 0:17:29.782 be that. You know, this is the freedom that loosening 0:17:29.861 --> 0:17:32.502 gender roles is given to us that in my mind 0:17:32.542 --> 0:17:35.501 is entirely positive. And although I know this isn't what 0:17:35.621 --> 0:17:37.821 Zuck was saying, and there's a lot of context to it, 0:17:38.061 --> 0:17:42.981 but there feels like this big cultural pushback personified in 0:17:43.022 --> 0:17:46.341 a way by things like this enthusiasm for MMA, for 0:17:46.381 --> 0:17:48.101 the like I mean, the andrew Tates of the world 0:17:48.101 --> 0:17:51.621 are literally saying wrestling and boxing should be mandatory in 0:17:51.702 --> 0:17:54.701 all public schools, and we're putting one of the big 0:17:54.821 --> 0:17:58.381 bosses of wrestling on the Facebook board, and we are 0:17:58.422 --> 0:18:01.262 re embracing that side of masculinity, which isn't necessarily a 0:18:01.262 --> 0:18:04.502 bad thing in itself, but it's just all signaling this 0:18:04.861 --> 0:18:09.461 very binary way that we see the world, which is 0:18:09.661 --> 0:18:13.542 like men fighting, good women nurturing. They just want everything 0:18:13.542 --> 0:18:15.221 to be nice. What's that true? 0:18:15.302 --> 0:18:18.182 What's not said in the undercurrent of all of this? 0:18:18.581 --> 0:18:21.542 And the reason that feminism tried to unpick this in 0:18:21.581 --> 0:18:24.141 the nineteen you know, sixties and seventies, and we've been 0:18:24.141 --> 0:18:28.262 trying to do it since is because masculinity and femininity 0:18:28.782 --> 0:18:31.941 do not culturally sit on an even playing field. It 0:18:32.022 --> 0:18:36.622 is seen as a hierarchy, and masculinity is seen broadly 0:18:36.742 --> 0:18:40.621 as higher than femininity. And the reason that is is 0:18:40.621 --> 0:18:43.622 because capitalism rewards a lot of what we see as 0:18:43.621 --> 0:18:46.821 masculine energies, which is why it's so ironic that you 0:18:46.861 --> 0:18:49.341 would say the corporate world needs more of it, Like 0:18:50.182 --> 0:18:53.782 I just can't stop thinking about the state of how 0:18:53.821 --> 0:19:00.262 aggressive and how competitive the market is, and how women 0:19:00.341 --> 0:19:03.462 you speak to who work in the corporate world would 0:19:03.462 --> 0:19:05.861 tell you that there is not too much feminine energy there. 0:19:05.942 --> 0:19:07.821 Like whether or not it's run by men is one thing, 0:19:08.141 --> 0:19:11.942 but the actual incives that drive it. I'm not led 0:19:11.982 --> 0:19:13.502 by any sort of feminine energies. 0:19:14.542 --> 0:19:16.941 No, I think we need to be careful about making 0:19:16.982 --> 0:19:20.141 this too broad and saying, you know, we're talking about 0:19:20.141 --> 0:19:24.222 everything from schools to the world. He's very specifically or 0:19:24.262 --> 0:19:29.022 he was speaking about the workplace, and there is no question. 0:19:28.821 --> 0:19:32.341 Not the workplace, the corporate corporate, which is a distinct environ. 0:19:32.422 --> 0:19:35.542 So in the corporate workplace, there has been, and we've 0:19:35.542 --> 0:19:37.662 spoken about it a lot on the show, there has 0:19:37.742 --> 0:19:44.862 been perhaps overdue, understandable, very positive in many ways, change 0:19:45.101 --> 0:19:47.941 in the way the corporate workplace went. And I tell you, 0:19:47.982 --> 0:19:51.262 I was rewatching How's That the drama about Kerry Packer 0:19:51.262 --> 0:19:53.461 and the rise of cricket in the seventies and eighties, 0:19:53.462 --> 0:19:56.461 and it was a reminder and I worked in that building. 0:19:56.502 --> 0:19:58.581 I worked for Kerry Packer, and I saw that stuff 0:19:58.621 --> 0:20:02.902 go on, and he was shouting and throwing plates and 0:20:02.942 --> 0:20:06.421 calling people names, and it was so like it was 0:20:06.422 --> 0:20:08.701 almost funny to what It was funny to watch it 0:20:08.782 --> 0:20:13.661 now because now HR and every workplace in the oh 0:20:13.702 --> 0:20:18.341 and s is actually about does everybody feel psychologically safe? 0:20:18.381 --> 0:20:21.741 And psychological safety and how important that is. So I 0:20:21.782 --> 0:20:26.022 don't think you could argue that corporate culture has quite 0:20:26.101 --> 0:20:31.262 rightly moved from people smoking, men grabbing women's asses, not 0:20:31.381 --> 0:20:34.621 that that's masculine energy, but the toxic parts of that, 0:20:35.341 --> 0:20:38.421 and it has really, really, really changed. 0:20:38.542 --> 0:20:40.462 It has changed, but I think the idea that some 0:20:40.542 --> 0:20:42.902 of the toxic behavior isn't there. Like when you hear 0:20:42.942 --> 0:20:45.182 about people who work with Jeff Bezos or Ellen Mask, 0:20:45.222 --> 0:20:47.581 which we've talked about, Oh they're being yelled at. Those 0:20:47.621 --> 0:20:49.022 men have not stopped yelling. 0:20:49.542 --> 0:20:52.141 Look, it's maa who really likes leaderboards around here. But 0:20:52.222 --> 0:20:54.782 I have an unofficial award for out louder of the week. 0:20:55.222 --> 0:20:59.022