Speaker 1: We are going to look back at ourselves walking to
Speaker 1: work with a pitcher like Jack and drill off the train. Basically,
Speaker 1: what we have is a backpack with a straw. We
Speaker 1: have a hiking back where we can caramill constantly be hydrating.
Speaker 1: Hydrating is fine, but I reckon out of control. It's
Speaker 1: completely out of cans.
Speaker 2: I made a wheely bag from my water bottle.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what
Speaker 3: women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the fifteenth of January.
Speaker 3: I am Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 1: I'm Me Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: And on the show today, more masculine energy please. That's
Speaker 3: what one of the world's most powerful men says is
Speaker 3: missing from everywhere right now?
Speaker 2: Is he right?
Speaker 3: Also, are you and your mates in the catch up
Speaker 3: track if you have an agenda running in your notes
Speaker 3: app for your next dinner, then yes you are. And
Speaker 3: are you trying to eat more protein while wearing your
Speaker 3: weighted vest and obsessing about your sleep hygiene? Well you
Speaker 3: are bang on the health trends for two I need
Speaker 3: twenty five. But why anyway?
Speaker 2: First, mere Friedman, young man, there's no need to feel down,
Speaker 2: young man, pick yourself off the ground, in case you
Speaker 2: missed it. Even when you're an American president, booking a
Speaker 2: bound for your party is hard, especially when you're Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: who's set to do inauguration two point zero next Tuesday
Speaker 2: Australian time. So thank god for the Village People who
Speaker 2: will be performing at the inauguration. They'll be performing Ymca
Speaker 2: among some of their other.
Speaker 1: Hits, because that's the song that he has kind of
Speaker 1: popularized all over again with his dancing Yeah, which.
Speaker 3: Makes absolutely no sense because it's not relevant, But that's
Speaker 3: the kind of chaos that we expect and we're here
Speaker 3: for in the Trump administration.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that would happen at those
Speaker 2: rallies was that they tried to just make them into parties,
Speaker 2: because there's not a lot of places that older people
Speaker 2: get to go and have a dance and listen to
Speaker 2: fun tunes. So there was one rally that he did
Speaker 2: where the autoc you didn't work or something happened, and
Speaker 2: he just played music and danced. So even though interestingly
Speaker 2: the Village People had some fights with the Trump campaign
Speaker 2: about using their music unauthorized, they've now just kissed the
Speaker 2: ring like everybody else, and they're doing the show for
Speaker 2: a few reasons. So I just want to go back
Speaker 2: to twenty seventeen because back then the first inauguration, everyone
Speaker 2: said no. Elton, John Celendon, Garth Brooks, Kiss, Andrea Bicceelli,
Speaker 2: even Charlotte Church. They all said no because they said
Speaker 2: they didn't like Trump. So he ended up with I
Speaker 2: got a list of the people he ended up with.
Speaker 2: I hadn't heard of any of them. There was a
Speaker 2: band called Three Doors Down.
Speaker 1: Three Doors Down millennials know.
Speaker 3: Them, okay.
Speaker 2: Also the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the Radio City Rockets.
Speaker 2: There were a bunch of others that I'd never heard
Speaker 2: of before. So it was a little light on star power,
Speaker 2: he would say. The Village people have said that they
Speaker 2: are doing it for all very lofty reasons. They've said
Speaker 2: that they believe that music is to be perfre formed
Speaker 2: without regard to politics. They said. They also expressed their
Speaker 2: hope that their song Ymca, which features look, the Village
Speaker 2: People traditionally have been a gay band. They've been, you know,
Speaker 2: representing different people in the village. It's become problematic for
Speaker 2: other reasons if I look at it, because it used
Speaker 2: to have an American Indian.
Speaker 3: They came out of the New York disco scene in
Speaker 3: the seventies. That's the context of the Village people is
Speaker 3: that that's where they came.
Speaker 1: So they're obviously gay icons. But are they gay men?
Speaker 2: They have been, they were.
Speaker 3: I think they're also a changing cast of people, all right,
Speaker 3: exactly like Manpower, Yeah, or the Chippendales.
Speaker 1: I had no idea where you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Okay, there's sort of groups of mousetripers that are a brand.
Speaker 2: They're not, no, but they've been different characters over the years. Anyway,
Speaker 2: they say they really love how much joy their song
Speaker 2: brings Trump and also they have made a lot of
Speaker 2: money because they're song is back on the leaderboard of
Speaker 2: the charts.
Speaker 1: Is it is it bad that I look at this
Speaker 1: story and I just go like them.
Speaker 3: Oh, for sure, let them, let them.
Speaker 2: Trump would also, She'll be singing the Star Spangled banner.
Speaker 3: For sure, let them. I just think it's quite funny,
Speaker 3: particularly because remember when we performed YMCA and that Mama
Speaker 3: Mire out loud shows that it was going to become
Speaker 3: the anthem, a mega anthem of Donald Trump's two point
Speaker 3: zero presidency. We didn't know, but maybe on some level
Speaker 3: we did.
Speaker 2: The Village People themselves commented on their Facebook page. They said,
Speaker 2: we are announcing today that Village People have accepted an
Speaker 2: invitation from President elect Trump's campaign to participate in inaugural activities,
Speaker 2: including at least one event with President elect Trump. We
Speaker 2: know this won't make some of you happy to hear. However,
Speaker 2: we believe that music is to be performed without regard
Speaker 2: to politics. They said. Our song YMCA is a global
Speaker 2: anthem that hopefully helps bring the country together after a
Speaker 2: tumultuous and divided campaign where our prefer candidate lost. Therefore,
Speaker 2: we believe it's now time to bring the country together
Speaker 2: with music, which is why Village People will perform at
Speaker 2: various events.
Speaker 1: That's interesting that Trump will still have them, even though
Speaker 1: they've said it wasn't our proferred candidate.
Speaker 2: He's got to take what he can get.
Speaker 3: He's also quite good at forgiving as long as you
Speaker 3: admit that you were wrong and he was right. I
Speaker 3: think he likes that. So they were like, we're in.
Speaker 3: We'd like come on him, I guess him and elon
Speaker 3: up there giving it loads with the arm pumps.
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, the founder and CEO of Meta thinks the
Speaker 1: corporate world needs more masculine energy please. Speaking to Joe Rogan,
Speaker 1: here's what he said.
Speaker 4: The kind of masculine energy I think is good. Yeah, obviously,
Speaker 4: you know, society has plenty of that, but I think
Speaker 4: corporate culture was really like trying to get away from it.
Speaker 4: And I do think that there's just something that it's like,
Speaker 4: all these forms of energy are good, and I think
Speaker 4: having a culture that like celebrates the aggression a bit
Speaker 4: more has its own merits that are really positive. That
Speaker 4: has been a kind of a positive experience for me,
Speaker 4: just like having a thing that I can just like
Speaker 4: do with my guy friends and life. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 4: like we're just like beat each other a bit.
Speaker 3: It's good.
Speaker 5: It is good. It's good. I could see your point
Speaker 5: though about Yeah, corporate culture, when do you think that happened?
Speaker 5: Was that a slow shift because I think it used
Speaker 5: to be very masculine and I used to be I
Speaker 5: think it was kind of hyper aggressive at one point.
Speaker 4: No, And look, and I think part of the the
Speaker 4: intent on all these things I think is good.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: It's I like, I do think that if you're a
Speaker 4: woman going into a company it probably feels like it's
Speaker 4: too masculine. It's like there isn't enough of the kind
Speaker 4: of the energy that you may naturally have, and it
Speaker 4: probably feels like there are all these things that are
Speaker 4: set up that are biased against you. And that's not
Speaker 4: good either, because you want you want women to be
Speaker 4: able to succeed and like have companies that can unlock
Speaker 4: all the value from having great people no matter what
Speaker 4: their background or gender.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: But I think these things can always go a little far.
Speaker 4: And I think it's one thing to say we want
Speaker 4: to be kind of like welcoming and make a good
Speaker 4: environment for everyone, and I think it's another to basically
Speaker 4: say that masculinity is bad. And I just think we
Speaker 4: kind of swung culturally to that part of the spectrum
Speaker 4: where you know, it's all like, okay, masculinity is toxic.
Speaker 4: We have to like get rid of it completely. It's like, no,
Speaker 4: like both of these things are good, right. It's like
Speaker 4: you want like feminine energy, you want masculine energy. You're
Speaker 4: going to have parts of society that have more of
Speaker 4: one or the other. I think that that's all good,
Speaker 4: But I do think the corporate culture sort of had
Speaker 4: swung towards being this somewhat more neutered thing.
Speaker 1: The conversation went for nearly three hours, and I went
Speaker 1: and listened to the context. Full disclosure, I didn't listen
Speaker 1: to this three hours, but I listened to what he
Speaker 1: said on either side, and he did say that feminine
Speaker 1: and masculine energies are both beneficial for the workplace and
Speaker 1: that he wants women to succeed. Is Also it's important
Speaker 1: to note that along with putting an end to fact checking,
Speaker 1: which we talked about on Monday's episode, Zuckerberg has also
Speaker 1: said his ending diversity, equity and inclusion programs and disbanding
Speaker 1: Meta's DEI team. Because this is a quote, the term
Speaker 1: has become charged, in part because it is understood by
Speaker 1: some as a practice that suggests preferential treatment of some
Speaker 1: groups over others. Yet if you read the fine print,
Speaker 1: the company still claims to be prioritizing diversity, but more
Speaker 1: so just rejecting the wording so they'll focus on eliminating bias.
Speaker 1: But anyway, back to masculine energy, did we ever really
Speaker 1: lose it? And does Mark Zuckerberg actually have a point?
Speaker 2: Maya? I thought it was really important to listen to
Speaker 2: the context of that, because the headlines that you'll read are, oh,
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg says we need to bring more masculine energy back,
Speaker 2: and two out of three Meta employees are already men.
Speaker 2: And how much masculine energy does he need? I think
Speaker 2: a couple of things that stood out to me. One
Speaker 2: is that he prefaced that by saying, interestingly, I grew
Speaker 2: up with three sisters, no brothers. I have three daughters,
Speaker 2: no sons. Now he didn't then say something positive about that,
Speaker 2: but he then went on to say, so, I think
Speaker 2: that gives you a really good indication of where he's
Speaker 2: coming from. He then went on to say what we
Speaker 2: heard about about masculine energy in the workplace. I think
Speaker 2: this becomes a little bit of a raw shark test.
Speaker 2: I never know how to say that. You know the
Speaker 2: ink blot where you see what is in your own
Speaker 2: mind and you project onto it how you feel about something.
Speaker 2: The term masculine energy can mean really different things to
Speaker 2: different people. For a lot of women, the hackles go
Speaker 2: up because it's like, oh, that means sexual harassment. That
Speaker 2: means people being assholes.
Speaker 1: So that means people shouting, how do you define it?
Speaker 3: And talking over you? And meetings and all those.
Speaker 2: Things exactly, and I could define it like that, and
Speaker 2: I think in some cases it is. That's why it's
Speaker 2: so subjective. In other cases, when I'm looking at it
Speaker 2: from a corporate point, you as a business owner, I
Speaker 2: think what it speaks to is that qualities like competitiveness
Speaker 2: aggression and I don't mean actual aggression, but I mean
Speaker 2: like hunger. I don't mean it's like hard work versus
Speaker 2: not hard work. I think the workplace really had to change,
Speaker 2: and a lot of more what are called feminized cultural
Speaker 2: values like kindness and sensitivity and consideration and you know,
Speaker 2: things around work life balance and everything. I think we
Speaker 2: really needed a correction there, and I'm really glad that
Speaker 2: we had one. But I think that those things have
Speaker 2: to coexist with competitiveness in business. And I'm very competitive.
Speaker 2: But if you're talking in these generalizations, I.
Speaker 1: Went really deep on what masculine energy even means, because
Speaker 1: it's not just him using it. I have heard in
Speaker 1: the last maybe two years, these terms of masculine and
Speaker 1: feminine coming up way more at a time when I
Speaker 1: thought we were sort of done with them.
Speaker 2: And I think we all have both in us.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, it's right. I don't think that you know,
Speaker 1: mass skuline energy belongs to men necessarily, but I looked
Speaker 1: it up and it's broadly defined as sort of ambition,
Speaker 1: reason and logic, strength and independence and having a win
Speaker 1: at all costs mentality. Right. And I think that the
Speaker 1: clue to what Mark Zuckerberg meant was in what he said,
Speaker 1: because he had the word aggressive in there, right. And
Speaker 1: the reason my back went up is because that aggressiveness,
Speaker 1: which I see, is very synonymous with capitalism. Look at
Speaker 1: where it's got us. I don't mean look at where
Speaker 1: men have got us. I mean look at where the
Speaker 1: privileging of masculine energy has got us to climate catastrophe.
Speaker 1: It's got us to incredible waste, it's got us international conflict.
Speaker 1: It's got us to a wealth disparity that is not closing.
Speaker 1: It's got us to a gender pay gap, like it's
Speaker 1: got us to a point where Fortune five hundred companies,
Speaker 1: they're all male leaders. I mean, to suggest that it
Speaker 1: has become feminized is laughable.
Speaker 3: At I agree with that because I think you're right Mia,
Speaker 3: that you read this headline and you take what you
Speaker 3: want from it. So the people like me who got
Speaker 3: their backs up by it are taking He means there
Speaker 3: are too many women whatever. But also the people who
Speaker 3: agree with him will see what they want to see too,
Speaker 3: and they won't listen to the context, and they do
Speaker 3: feel like the world is being skewed towards women, and
Speaker 3: it's not true. As you've just pointed out, Jesse, the
Speaker 3: top ten most powerful business leaders in America are all men.
Speaker 3: One woman on there, she's the GM of General Motors.
Speaker 3: They are all men. They have all built these enormously successful,
Speaker 3: possibly the most influential private companies that have ever existed.
Speaker 3: When you think about the fact they control everything we read,
Speaker 3: everything we watch, everything we talk about. They were all
Speaker 3: built on these very masculine energy. Well exactly what I
Speaker 3: mean is his point is that we need to get
Speaker 3: back to it. It never went away. Everything was built
Speaker 3: on masculine energy. So it's like it's a straw man,
Speaker 3: it's a red herring, it's disagree, it's throwing meat to
Speaker 3: a base. Because it's like saying we've lost so much
Speaker 3: because women are taking over. It's like, no, we haven't,
Speaker 3: because women haven't taken over. Interestingly, in Australia, if you
Speaker 3: look at the most successful business people in Australia. About
Speaker 3: four of the top six are women, right, And I
Speaker 3: know it's not as simple as male female, But what
Speaker 3: the people who are agreeing with Zuckerberg and love the
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan Show and feel very strongly that the world
Speaker 3: needs to be put right again, and Donald Trump is
Speaker 3: one of them. They're talking about a very specific kind
Speaker 3: of masculinity, which is physically aggressive, strong man. How many
Speaker 3: times did Trump talk about that in his campaigning? Is
Speaker 3: talking about who's going to stand up for you? It's
Speaker 3: a very traditional, very masculine vibe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. It chills me that vibe,
Speaker 2: So I don't see it as about men and women specifically.
Speaker 2: And I thought what was also really interesting, which is
Speaker 2: worth pointing out as a conversation progressed. Joe Rogan really
Speaker 2: pushed back and sounded a word of caution and said,
Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we have both, which
Speaker 2: is true and which of course I agree as well.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that I think you can hear
Speaker 2: in him about him personally, he's come from a family
Speaker 2: of women, he lives in a house of women. I
Speaker 2: think that we have really pathologized masculine energy and we're
Speaker 2: likely to call it toxic when boy's rough house, when
Speaker 2: boys want to be physical, when boys want to run around,
Speaker 2: we pathologize that. We say they've got this condition, they've
Speaker 2: got this problem, it's toxic. And this idea that everybody
Speaker 2: should be more like women. I think that the hair
Speaker 2: is truth to it, but I think we've made men
Speaker 2: feel really ashamed of them some of their masculine traits.
Speaker 1: The point that I agree with is that we have
Speaker 1: conflated masculinity with toxic masculinity. Yes, in terms of having
Speaker 1: a handbook of how to be a man in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, I'm not sure that that exists yet. And
Speaker 1: I think that Andrew Taitan his popularity is proof of
Speaker 1: a wide open gap, which is that some men feel
Speaker 1: as though they don't have a blueprint for masculinity. And
Speaker 1: you've got a Taylor Swift concert and women go and
Speaker 1: celebrate femininity in a really innocent way. But we see
Speaker 1: something sinister about a gathering of a lot of men,
Speaker 1: not for entirely ludicrous reasons, like for reasons such as
Speaker 1: domestic violence and sexual harassment and everything we know about
Speaker 1: what happens in some all male cultures, but that leads
Speaker 1: men and boys in a difficult.
Speaker 2: Spot, always feeling ashamed of some of their instincts, which
Speaker 2: might be a.
Speaker 3: Rough house or shout or run maybe, but one of
Speaker 3: the things that I would hate to be lost in
Speaker 3: this rush to re embrace musculinity, which even Zuckerberg says
Speaker 3: he's found his masculine through his enthusiasm for mma. That
Speaker 3: is a massively, quickly growing, enormous movement among young men.
Speaker 3: And I'd push back a tiny bit on the notion
Speaker 3: that women have Taylor Swift concerts to gather at. Who's
Speaker 3: usually filling those stadiums?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Men have plenty of and I'm not suggesting for a
Speaker 3: second the sports games are only full of men, but
Speaker 3: traditionally they dominate the culture and public spaces. So let's
Speaker 3: again not get too that.
Speaker 1: Those public expressions like even a football grand final or whatever,
Speaker 1: and very rightfully has now been cast, is can we
Speaker 1: talk about what happens after the football grand final, which
Speaker 1: is a lot of these men leave and domestic violencing
Speaker 1: a little bit of that.
Speaker 3: We talk about that for the first time because we
Speaker 3: weren't talking about it for fifty years. Actually, what we
Speaker 3: talk about that's all over the newspapers and all over
Speaker 3: the television, all over everything is the game, right, So
Speaker 3: I think there's male culture is not in danger. That
Speaker 3: is my general point. But also what worries me is
Speaker 3: just this sort of re embracing of these very traditional
Speaker 3: roles because for many people, and our talk go about
Speaker 3: myself diversifying, the idea of male and female energy has
Speaker 3: been so freeing we were all locked in these cages.
Speaker 3: You know, I am allowed to be the breadwinner. My
Speaker 3: partner is allowed to express his nurturing side as lead parent.
Speaker 3: My daughter can play the football, while my son, who
Speaker 3: would much rather go and be in a play, can
Speaker 3: be that. You know, this is the freedom that loosening
Speaker 3: gender roles is given to us that in my mind
Speaker 3: is entirely positive. And although I know this isn't what
Speaker 3: Zuck was saying, and there's a lot of context to it,
Speaker 3: but there feels like this big cultural pushback personified in
Speaker 3: a way by things like this enthusiasm for MMA, for
Speaker 3: the like I mean, the andrew Tates of the world
Speaker 3: are literally saying wrestling and boxing should be mandatory in
Speaker 3: all public schools, and we're putting one of the big
Speaker 3: bosses of wrestling on the Facebook board, and we are
Speaker 3: re embracing that side of masculinity, which isn't necessarily a
Speaker 3: bad thing in itself, but it's just all signaling this
Speaker 3: very binary way that we see the world, which is
Speaker 3: like men fighting, good women nurturing. They just want everything
Speaker 3: to be nice. What's that true?
Speaker 1: What's not said in the undercurrent of all of this?
Speaker 1: And the reason that feminism tried to unpick this in
Speaker 1: the nineteen you know, sixties and seventies, and we've been
Speaker 1: trying to do it since is because masculinity and femininity
Speaker 1: do not culturally sit on an even playing field. It
Speaker 1: is seen as a hierarchy, and masculinity is seen broadly
Speaker 1: as higher than femininity. And the reason that is is
Speaker 1: because capitalism rewards a lot of what we see as
Speaker 1: masculine energies, which is why it's so ironic that you
Speaker 1: would say the corporate world needs more of it, Like
Speaker 1: I just can't stop thinking about the state of how
Speaker 1: aggressive and how competitive the market is, and how women
Speaker 1: you speak to who work in the corporate world would
Speaker 1: tell you that there is not too much feminine energy there.
Speaker 1: Like whether or not it's run by men is one thing,
Speaker 1: but the actual incives that drive it. I'm not led
Speaker 1: by any sort of feminine energies.
Speaker 2: No, I think we need to be careful about making
Speaker 2: this too broad and saying, you know, we're talking about
Speaker 2: everything from schools to the world. He's very specifically or
Speaker 2: he was speaking about the workplace, and there is no question.
Speaker 1: Not the workplace, the corporate corporate, which is a distinct environ.
Speaker 2: So in the corporate workplace, there has been, and we've
Speaker 2: spoken about it a lot on the show, there has
Speaker 2: been perhaps overdue, understandable, very positive in many ways, change
Speaker 2: in the way the corporate workplace went. And I tell you,
Speaker 2: I was rewatching How's That the drama about Kerry Packer
Speaker 2: and the rise of cricket in the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 2: and it was a reminder and I worked in that building.
Speaker 2: I worked for Kerry Packer, and I saw that stuff
Speaker 2: go on, and he was shouting and throwing plates and
Speaker 2: calling people names, and it was so like it was
Speaker 2: almost funny to what It was funny to watch it
Speaker 2: now because now HR and every workplace in the oh
Speaker 2: and s is actually about does everybody feel psychologically safe?
Speaker 2: And psychological safety and how important that is. So I
Speaker 2: don't think you could argue that corporate culture has quite
Speaker 2: rightly moved from people smoking, men grabbing women's asses, not
Speaker 2: that that's masculine energy, but the toxic parts of that,
Speaker 2: and it has really, really, really changed.
Speaker 1: It has changed, but I think the idea that some
Speaker 1: of the toxic behavior isn't there. Like when you hear
Speaker 1: about people who work with Jeff Bezos or Ellen Mask,
Speaker 1: which we've talked about, Oh they're being yelled at. Those
Speaker 1: men have not stopped yelling.
Speaker 3: Look, it's maa who really likes leaderboards around here. But
Speaker 3: I have an unofficial award for out louder of the week.
Speaker 3: I'm calling it early Is. Her name is Emma Right,
Speaker 3: and in the Facebook group after Monday's show, she wrote
Speaker 3: a high coup called I like Megan Markle a high
Speaker 3: coup and it goes like they're I like Megan, seems
Speaker 3: like a nice human, likes dogs, dogs like her. Dogs
Speaker 3: aren't stupid. The end, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 3: We need to put the disclaimer in before you get
Speaker 3: your phone out. We know that's not strictly a haikull.
Speaker 2: Some of us knew. I thought it was one day.
Speaker 3: I didn't mean too because I struggle with the maths
Speaker 3: of haiku. There's too much maths involved. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: just what's haiku?
Speaker 1: Haiku is technically a Japanese poem of seventeen syllables in
Speaker 1: three lines of five, seven and five, traditionally evoking images
Speaker 1: of the natural world, so it doesn't quite fish but
Speaker 1: dogs and some of us too much maths. Haikus are
Speaker 1: a vibe. Haikus are about whether it gives a vibe the
Speaker 1: gist of a haiku. And you could have fooled me.
Speaker 1: I really like it. I think it's straight to the point,
Speaker 1: and I actually really like the underlying point she's making.
Speaker 2: You told me that your mother jesse Ann Stevens, friend
Speaker 2: of the Pod. Her social media bio is written in
Speaker 2: haiku form.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, so English teacher of one hundred and three years.
Speaker 1: It is a high and it's like I have husband
Speaker 1: and four children and a dog ted he is fat
Speaker 1: or something like. It's just this weird poem. She has
Speaker 1: no recollection of writing.
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound strictly like.
Speaker 1: I've got hiku again, not really about the natural world.
Speaker 2: Dogs are featuring a lot in nikus.
Speaker 3: If anyone wants to weigh in with Haikus, inspired by
Speaker 3: today's show very hare for It.
Speaker 2: In a moment after the break. Are you stuck in
Speaker 2: the catch up trap? And what can you do about it?
Speaker 2: We are too, Let's fix it. The thing about December
Speaker 2: and January is that you can often find yourself seeing
Speaker 2: people you haven't seen in a while. I know that
Speaker 2: happened to me over Christmas, and you often find yourself saying,
Speaker 2: let's catch up to those people. And if that's you,
Speaker 2: I have a warning for you. Beware of the catch
Speaker 2: up trap. There's been a bit of talk about this recently,
Speaker 2: including a column by Tanya Hennessy for Body and Soul
Speaker 2: last weekend. And here's what you need to know about
Speaker 2: the catch up trap and what it is. Essentially, it's
Speaker 2: when two people live their lives pretty separately and they
Speaker 2: catch up over dinner or maybe lunch, breakfast, a walk,
Speaker 2: or maybe they have drinks, and they don't do this
Speaker 2: very often, and so what their time together involves is
Speaker 2: telling each other about what's going on in their lives,
Speaker 2: but never creating new memories or experiences together. And this
Speaker 2: is the trap, part of the catch up trap. So
Speaker 2: I thought about this a lot because the part of
Speaker 2: being younger that I really miss as well as the
Speaker 2: collagen is getting ready and just hanging out with your friends.
Speaker 2: Like when I see girlfriends now it's for a specific
Speaker 2: amount of time, usually over a meal or a cup
Speaker 2: of tea, and I find myself doing things like, you know,
Speaker 2: I've got a group of girlfriends. I guess we catch
Speaker 2: up constantly over group chat, but when we meet, I'll
Speaker 2: often be like, can we just do a quick around
Speaker 2: the grounds to find out how everyone's children are, what's
Speaker 2: happening in everyone's lives. And it's true. I always thought
Speaker 2: this was a great thing, but now I've realized. So
Speaker 2: everybody does their little monologue and it ends up being
Speaker 2: like a series of spoken social media up there.
Speaker 1: Yes, Tanya Hannessee calls it friendship admin, which I thought
Speaker 1: was a really accurate term. I have a friend who
Speaker 1: saw this article and just thought it was brilliant, and
Speaker 1: so she put it in a group chat. There's about
Speaker 1: twenty of us in there, but someone had just gone
Speaker 1: to an android, which meant that everyone was sent that
Speaker 1: message individually, and then she was in undated for two
Speaker 1: or three days with intense messages from friends being like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we are called in the catchup truck. We
Speaker 1: should do something lovely together, like have a hiking weekend,
Speaker 1: and she was like, no, no fucking hiking weekend with
Speaker 1: twenty people.
Speaker 2: It's not an intervention.
Speaker 1: But I totally agree with this. I found over the
Speaker 1: holidays I did do a hike with my mum and
Speaker 1: sister and like, there's no pressure to do anything. It's
Speaker 1: just like walking alongside each other or talking about what
Speaker 1: you can see. Like we've joked before about having an agenda,
Speaker 1: I often have this with friends where I usually call
Speaker 1: it theagender yes, where you just tick off at a
Speaker 1: bunch of things. I mean, firstly, it can make it
Speaker 1: feel a bit like a work meeting. And secondly it
Speaker 1: reminded me maybe of why I can find those situations
Speaker 1: not boring. But I'm telling the same stories all the time,
Speaker 1: So I hate this. I'm so bored of my life.
Speaker 1: So it's like I have three stories, how's the health
Speaker 1: of BA, How's this, How's that? And you just tell
Speaker 1: exactly the same stories over and over again, and there's
Speaker 1: no just like the natural hanging out vibe.
Speaker 3: Have you noticed this, Holly one hundred percent? And I
Speaker 3: also think it means they're just less satisfying conversations because
Speaker 3: I don't really like I hate it when people say, so,
Speaker 3: what's been going on? You know what I mean? I'm like,
Speaker 3: whereas I like to talk about a thing. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's why we make this show, because we like talking
Speaker 3: about a thing. I like to go deep. I like
Speaker 3: depth rather than breadth. And when I say deep, I
Speaker 3: don't mean like tell me about your childhood. I mean
Speaker 3: like talk about some thing for a long time. But
Speaker 3: when we do our around the grounds and we do
Speaker 3: this sometimes obviously it's like what's going on with your kids?
Speaker 3: Sometimes there's something really big you need to unpack, and
Speaker 3: sometimes like, oh, they're fine, Like I don't really want
Speaker 3: to talk, you know what I mean? So I entirely
Speaker 3: get it. The only thing I think because I don't
Speaker 3: like structured catch ups like that. But the only thing
Speaker 3: that changed my mind a little bit is because I
Speaker 3: think it depends on your friendship groups, right, Like this
Speaker 3: is why going away with friends is good, because there's
Speaker 3: lots of hanging around time where you just talk about whatever.
Speaker 2: That's why we like being on tour together.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, there's lots of hanging around time where you
Speaker 3: just talk about whatever, and things happen, and then they
Speaker 3: become stories in themselves, and then there's that time that
Speaker 3: that thing and blah, and that's always fun. But you
Speaker 3: know how, you've got those people in your life who
Speaker 3: you might only see twice a year or something. So
Speaker 3: I've got a group of friends who I probably see
Speaker 3: twice a year at most. We'll go out for dinner.
Speaker 3: And at the end of last year, we went out
Speaker 3: for one of our dinners and one of my friends,
Speaker 3: inspired by this very show, wanted to do around the
Speaker 3: table best and Worst, and I was like, oh, but
Speaker 3: actually it was fucking great.
Speaker 2: Because it cuts through.
Speaker 3: It cuts through because it isn't like tell everything that's
Speaker 3: happened to you this year, so you know, I lost
Speaker 3: my job, got another job, but you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: It was more like it made you think what was
Speaker 3: the best thing, what was the worst thing? At white
Speaker 3: And then that led to really interesting, deep conversations Rather
Speaker 3: than like two of those people that had a baby
Speaker 3: in the last year, they were like, obviously that's just news,
Speaker 3: and I hadn't seen them all met their babies. But
Speaker 3: the best and worst related to the babies led to
Speaker 3: really interesting conversations about here, Do you know what I mean? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I wonder if the catch up trap is also about
Speaker 1: wanting our social life to be incredibly efficient. So we
Speaker 1: want to go and think, how can I make this
Speaker 1: a very productive social interaction where I do three months
Speaker 1: worth of catch up in an hour.
Speaker 3: And a half.
Speaker 1: And that's why we don't go and do things like
Speaker 1: often go to the movies or go and see a show.
Speaker 1: Or my friend who sent this article then organized an
Speaker 1: escape room. What you can't do in an escape room
Speaker 1: is catch up, and you're actually doing an activity always
Speaker 1: creating a new memory or experience that is fun in
Speaker 1: the moment.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yes, So I also find that there's a lot of
Speaker 2: pressure to be brief because it's like, well, I've got
Speaker 2: to summarize, but I know we've got to get to
Speaker 2: everybody else, and the main course has already arrived and
Speaker 2: people are halfway through it, and we better speed up.
Speaker 2: It's also that misnomer of people think that quality time
Speaker 2: is the best thing, but there's a lot to be
Speaker 2: said from relationships being built in quantity time, which is
Speaker 2: more than hanging out. I also wonder if the catch
Speaker 2: up traps become more of an issue now because there
Speaker 2: was a time a few years ago at Christmas where
Speaker 2: you would see people that you hadn't seen for a while,
Speaker 2: like family or whatever. Everyone would say to each other, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'd ask you what's happening in your life? But I
Speaker 2: already know because I follow you on Facebook where I
Speaker 2: follow you on Instagram. Now, I think, firstly because of
Speaker 2: the algorithm that doesn't show us anybody that we follow,
Speaker 2: and secondly because a lot of people are not posting
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff anymore. We've all called back, so
Speaker 2: there is a lot more that we don't know about
Speaker 2: each other's lives. So there is that sense of we
Speaker 2: didn't need to catch up before because we literally knew it,
Speaker 2: but now we kind of do.
Speaker 3: I think that's really true. I thought about that too,
Speaker 3: as it used to be like I know all the facts,
Speaker 3: tell me the feelings, whereas now I'm like, shit, I
Speaker 3: don't actually know whether or not you've changed your job,
Speaker 3: but I don't actually know whether or not. So it's like,
Speaker 3: can we go back to life updates? Please? Circulating quick
Speaker 3: life updates before the meeting, pre reading, the reading, prereading,
Speaker 3: pre reading, so that in the meaning we can go.
Speaker 1: Deep feedback is a gift from both the perspective of
Speaker 1: a giver as well as the recipient. I have some feedback,
Speaker 1: it's a gift as me or says, Look, this is
Speaker 1: something that's making me puffer fish. We used to talk
Speaker 1: about puffer fishing a lot. It's a Hannah Gadsby term.
Speaker 1: Is when something really pisses you off and you turn
Speaker 1: into a puff fish.
Speaker 2: Do you know what puffer fishing is? Usually when you
Speaker 2: need to give feedback. It's the thing that happens just
Speaker 2: before yes, you give feedback, blows out. Yeah, Hannah Gadsby.
Speaker 2: Thing is like it's just a normal fish and then
Speaker 2: something happens and it's suddenly puffed up. Yeah, And that's
Speaker 2: usually how I feel when I'm needing a feedback form.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I had my puffer fish moment. This actually
Speaker 1: happened last year, but I've been reminded of it recently
Speaker 1: and I posted about it on Instagram. I was in
Speaker 1: a shop and I saw a water bottle that was
Speaker 1: three point seven leaders.
Speaker 2: What do you mean was this to go camping with?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: It was just like, I don't know school.
Speaker 2: Was it a camping shot?
Speaker 3: That tank stuck behind the person filling that up at
Speaker 3: the tap and yes in the kitchen the other it's.
Speaker 1: Why you're probably late to a record. But I looked
Speaker 1: at this water bottle and I said, Holly's word of
Speaker 1: the year.
Speaker 3: I said, nap.
Speaker 1: I said, we've reached pete water bottle. That's too much,
Speaker 1: that's unnecessary, and we're getting silly. And Holly and I
Speaker 1: did an in the and Outs episode of twenty twenty
Speaker 1: five and I said, we are going to look back
Speaker 1: at ourselves walking to work with a picture like Jack
Speaker 1: and Jill off the train with Basically basically what we
Speaker 1: have is a backpack with a straw. We have a
Speaker 1: hiking back where Iram will constantly be hydrating. Hydrating is fine,
Speaker 1: but I reckon.
Speaker 2: Out of control.
Speaker 1: It's completely out of I made.
Speaker 2: A wheely bag for my water bottle.
Speaker 3: I want to know what you think about this, because me,
Speaker 3: I loved an accessory. Yesterday in a cafe, I saw
Speaker 3: a very stylish woman and she had quite a big
Speaker 3: water bottle that had its own like leather holder and straps.
Speaker 3: So you know, like the army, you know, how like
Speaker 3: soldiers you used to have like a water bottle, and
Speaker 3: it obviously looked very cool. But I was like that's
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 2: It's a bag for your water bottle, and then you've
Speaker 2: got to buy little charms for that bag that holds
Speaker 2: the water.
Speaker 1: And then you've got to buy a new holder because
Speaker 1: guess where a water bottle doesn't fit in your car,
Speaker 1: your desk, your bag. It doesn't fit.
Speaker 2: And when, of course I bought that accessory and then
Speaker 2: I lost the water bottle.
Speaker 1: I put this on Instagram and I had a bunch
Speaker 1: of pelvic floor physios say, this is a real issue
Speaker 1: for women. They're drinking too much water and they're fucking
Speaker 1: their pelvic floors. Yeah, because women can't have three point
Speaker 1: seven leaders yes of water just sitting on your pelvic
Speaker 1: floor when you've had multiple children. And someone else said,
Speaker 1: I'm a surgeon and people are breaking their toes.
Speaker 3: Oh thought you meant by the water of their stream
Speaker 3: after the break? Why everything is a trend, particularly cottage chief.
Speaker 2: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We
Speaker 2: drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and
Speaker 2: MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to
Speaker 2: get us in your ears five days a week and
Speaker 2: a huge thank you. If you're already a subscriber in
Speaker 2: case you missed it. The b CCI, the Board of
Speaker 2: Control for cricket in India, has introduced new travel restrictions
Speaker 2: for Indian cricketers wives and families following poor performance in
Speaker 2: recent test series against New Zealand and Australia. Under the
Speaker 2: revised rules, family members can stay with players for a
Speaker 2: maximum of fourteen days during tours lasting over forty five days,
Speaker 2: and only seven days for shorter toours. I wonder if
Speaker 2: they've also got sex pants. So basically the wives and
Speaker 2: girlfriends just for their performance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the first time. I remember in English football,
Speaker 3: I think about ten years ago there was what everybody
Speaker 3: called the wag ban, which was when the footballers wives
Speaker 3: and girlfriends weren't allowed to travel to Baden Barden for
Speaker 3: I know, the World Cup of the Euros or something,
Speaker 3: and everyone was up in arms and basically the manager
Speaker 3: made the decision and he said, if they want to come,
Speaker 3: they can make their own arrangements and turn up, but
Speaker 3: we are not bringing wives and girlfriends on tour anymore
Speaker 3: because they are a distraction.
Speaker 1: I feel sorry because that's a lot of days that
Speaker 1: you're playing cricket. Right, that was forty five days or something.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't feel that sorry because it's like, does everyone anyone
Speaker 2: else get to bring their wives?
Speaker 3: And no, no, no, it's not that bad. I about
Speaker 3: Can you imagine if Brent was sitting in the corner
Speaker 3: applauding every time we said something.
Speaker 1: You know, No, he'd love to be here.
Speaker 2: He's tried, no, but cricketers, we had to lock him out.
Speaker 1: They're traveling all around the world. I have heard cricketers
Speaker 1: interviewed who say how difficult it is, especially with really
Speaker 1: little kids, Like, imagine how much Jesse is a life choice.
Speaker 1: It's a life choice. But to not have your say,
Speaker 1: wife and a newborn along with you if you've newly
Speaker 1: become a father, would that be when you're at work
Speaker 1: but you're on there much at work, when you're not
Speaker 1: on the pitch and you're just going back to a
Speaker 1: hotel room or whatever.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, no, it's interesting because they've also the other
Speaker 2: new rule that they've made is that if the wives
Speaker 2: and the partners and are on tour with them, the
Speaker 2: players must travel together on the team bus. So obviously
Speaker 2: they've been like, I'll just go with my family and
Speaker 2: I'll meet you there. And it's like no, no, we
Speaker 2: won't have that. What if you guys wanted to bring
Speaker 2: your partners and children on tour when we went on.
Speaker 1: The thing is we only tour for a very short
Speaker 1: amount of time, pretty people, Jesse. If forty five days
Speaker 1: a year we weren't there, then.
Speaker 2: They've got to find someone to blame. And you know,
Speaker 2: as I always say, it's usually the women's fault.
Speaker 3: If you are on trend for twenty twenty five, then
Speaker 3: right now you're wearing a statement flat shoe, also matching
Speaker 3: it back with your weighted vest, and eating a boiled
Speaker 3: egg because protein.
Speaker 2: They don't know my life. That is literally been my morning,
Speaker 2: every single thing you just said. I'm wearing my flats,
Speaker 2: I was wearing my weighted vest. I finished my protein.
Speaker 1: I noticed that weighted vest were a perimenopause thing, and
Speaker 1: it hadn't even left my mouth before me it was like, oh, I've.
Speaker 2: Got two.
Speaker 3: One to Anyway, there have always been trends for our
Speaker 3: hair and our shoes, of course, and there have also
Speaker 3: been those helpful trends for our bodies which have always
Speaker 3: been great for us. Your big boobs are in and
Speaker 3: then you're out. Your flat bomb is in. Then it's out,
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. But how does a food group
Speaker 3: become on trend the way that protein really has At
Speaker 3: the moment, every instareel that involves food that pops up
Speaker 3: in my feed helpfully advises me how many grams of
Speaker 3: protein the dish, all that meal contains. This is because
Speaker 3: I'm a midwoman, and obviously I'm falling for it because
Speaker 3: I need to optimize myself. Like Gwyneth, I am buying
Speaker 3: bread with added protein, yogurt with added protein, pasta with
Speaker 3: added protein. My cottage cheese, which apparently was always a
Speaker 3: good source of protein, now has more protein in it.
Speaker 3: And at this point, on January the fifteenth, I am
Speaker 3: ninety percent hard boiled egg and ten percent post. I
Speaker 3: bought a new blender for protein rich smoothies, which TikTok
Speaker 3: tells me I can turn into protein reached banana bread
Speaker 3: with a dollip of you guessed it, cottage cheese. And
Speaker 3: the thing is stupid sheep that I am. I don't
Speaker 3: even know what protein is how it does. I just
Speaker 3: know I have to eat more of it. So how
Speaker 3: did protein become the sexy go to word for women's health? Well,
Speaker 3: look when I did look into what protein was because
Speaker 3: I am such an idiot actual nutrition. It's not me.
Speaker 3: So this is why we do need it and why
Speaker 3: I'm eating all those boiled eggs. It helps to prevent
Speaker 3: accelerated muscle mass loss, helps build bone health, and helps
Speaker 3: optimize you metabolism. It also has some evidence that it
Speaker 3: helps with mental health because it can help boost your
Speaker 3: dopamine receptors or something, and all of those things can
Speaker 3: be negatively affected by a lost of which is why
Speaker 3: all the midwomen are into it. Fun fun, fun. So
Speaker 3: I want to know because I have a suspicion that
Speaker 3: it might be just a new way to talk about
Speaker 3: something we've been talking about a long time, which is
Speaker 3: low carb. We're not allowed to say anymore I'm not
Speaker 3: eating carbs, but we are allowed to say I'm really
Speaker 3: trying to eat more protein.
Speaker 1: It's firstly, it is the result of a lot of research,
Speaker 1: and they are very smart people working in like dieticians
Speaker 1: who are working in this space and publishing papers. And
Speaker 1: it does seem like the cutting edge research is protein
Speaker 1: good for now, And the nature of research is it
Speaker 1: constantly evolves and changes. I also think that in terms
Speaker 1: of how to communicate public health messaging. Telling people what
Speaker 1: they should eat more of rather than what they should
Speaker 1: eat less of is probably a good thing. So we
Speaker 1: were told like less sugar, less fat, less blood. It's like,
Speaker 1: eat this because it'll fill you out. Yeah, health wise,
Speaker 1: seems like a relatively good message. I also think that
Speaker 1: the reason protein is resonating is because it's about weight management,
Speaker 1: but it's also about bone strength, especially for women.
Speaker 2: If it is about weight management, to be honest, because
Speaker 2: it can cause you to put on.
Speaker 1: Weight, well, it's about lean muscle, maus and metabolism. So
Speaker 1: when I was doing research on this and the reason
Speaker 1: why a lot of people are gravitating towards it, and
Speaker 1: as much as I kind of criticize this, a lot
Speaker 1: of our discussions about health are really coded are about weight.
Speaker 1: A lot of the research suggests more muscle burns for out,
Speaker 1: so that's why people do it. But the other thing
Speaker 1: is injury prevention, and with an enormous increase in exercise,
Speaker 1: and knowing that exercise, there's a word that we are
Speaker 1: going to be hearing more than ever in the next
Speaker 1: twelve months, and that word is longevity. So people don't
Speaker 1: just want to live longer they want to live longer
Speaker 1: with a far better quality of life, and having muscle
Speaker 1: mass is going to help with you hear people fall
Speaker 1: over and break a hip or whatever. Like muscle mass,
Speaker 1: this is good.
Speaker 2: Same with bone density. That's why we're all lifting weights
Speaker 2: like Arnold Schwartz smooking exactly. So is that why you
Speaker 2: have a weighted vest? Yeah, I've got a weighted vest
Speaker 2: that I sung. I waited too hard over the holidays.
Speaker 2: I waited my vest while I was lifting my weight,
Speaker 2: hurt myself and I literally the other day, I'm such
Speaker 2: a cliche and a basic bitch. A very blood box
Speaker 2: arrived at our house with four kilos of protein and
Speaker 2: Jason's like, what is that? And I'm like, I need protein.
Speaker 2: So are you putting it in your green smoothies? I'm
Speaker 2: putting it in my green smoothie. Is the other reason
Speaker 2: that I think people are big on protein. I was
Speaker 2: told by two doctors my doctor's after I had a
Speaker 2: whole lot of just blood tests, just check ups and stuff.
Speaker 2: Because I don't eat meat. I'm essentially a pescatarian and
Speaker 2: I don't eat much fish. My diet is mostly tea
Speaker 2: and carbs, and so I was you know. When she
Speaker 2: looked at what I was eating, She's like, you're literally
Speaker 2: giving almost no protein. And so I am now thinking
Speaker 2: through the lens of protein meals, because I'm the opposite you, Jesse.
Speaker 2: If I don't have carbs, I don't feel full protein.
Speaker 2: I'm like, whatevers, I can live without it. But I
Speaker 2: have increased my protein. I've got my weighted vest on.
Speaker 3: And have you started sleep, Hugene yet, that's the next
Speaker 3: thing that's going to be a sleep.
Speaker 2: Touch with sleep is okay, I'm slapping my hit patches on.
Speaker 3: So I just look.
Speaker 2: I think it's also very gen x that we just
Speaker 2: make a big fucking deal about anything that we're doing.
Speaker 2: We don't do it happily quietly interesting.
Speaker 1: I was reading this research that said that the highest
Speaker 1: like search terms, the people who are most obsessed with
Speaker 1: protein are like twenty to forty Like they're the ones.
Speaker 3: I would hazard a guess too that that might be
Speaker 3: male bit more male, because it is true about the muscle.
Speaker 3: Bros has previously discussed how it's very cool at the
Speaker 3: moment to be really shredded in the MMA and stuff
Speaker 3: that you've got to help your protein for that. I
Speaker 3: just find it really fascinating how health trends because you're
Speaker 3: so right, Jesse what you said before. We're learning more
Speaker 3: all the time, so it's really great that we're all
Speaker 3: a bit more aware of like protein does this, and
Speaker 3: you need more of that because your estrogen's plunging and blush.
Speaker 3: But it also feels like these things just come out
Speaker 3: of nowhere suddenly, and every single thing that you see
Speaker 3: is protein, protein, protein protein.
Speaker 2: But that's because of TikTok. That's because of social media.
Speaker 2: TikTok influences. Things happen really really fast. Usually they're ahead.
Speaker 2: I was reading recently, it's now that TikTok trickles up
Speaker 2: to the media that the media now then reports on
Speaker 2: what's on TikTok. But TikTok because it's regular people, mostly
Speaker 2: younger people, but regular people, it is like what everyone's doing,
Speaker 2: and then it suddenly can go viral and it can
Speaker 2: feel like everyone's doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that there's some probably necessary to
Speaker 1: have a dose of skepticism because in the past a
Speaker 1: huge trends of food have actually been driven by the
Speaker 1: market forces. So it's like we need to sell more beef.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's not the reason Yeah. Because of weight loss
Speaker 2: drugs or the new generation of weight loss drugs that
Speaker 2: are coming along, people are consuming less calories and if
Speaker 2: you're consuming less fuel in the form of food, you
Speaker 2: need the fuel that you're consuming to be high quality,
Speaker 2: so you need things like protein to build muscles. There's
Speaker 2: been a lot of emphasis on that too.
Speaker 1: Have either of you watched Brian Johnson's documentary on Netflix
Speaker 1: about Never Dying?
Speaker 2: I find him just so creepy. I've watched quite a
Speaker 2: bit of YouTube about him and his YouTube channel.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to talk about it at some point.
Speaker 3: He goes to the nth degree of measuring every little
Speaker 3: bit of everything that goes in your body. And we know,
Speaker 3: and we know about this conversation that for a lot
Speaker 3: of women, whenever you talk about what you're eating and
Speaker 3: how to eat it, it can be really dangerous in
Speaker 3: a way because we can obsess about it when really
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the stats in Australia show
Speaker 3: at least that we don't really have a problem with protein.
Speaker 3: Me or a side she did she needed to get
Speaker 3: the protein pattern. But Australians generally do eat a lot
Speaker 3: of meat, and they do eat a lot of protein,
Speaker 3: and so they're saying that studies show that it wasn't
Speaker 3: really a big problem for us, but we've convinced ourselves
Speaker 3: it is. And it's something else to angst about the
Speaker 3: way that a guy like Brian Johnson has turned everything
Speaker 3: he puts into his body into an absolute science, down
Speaker 3: to the last little Millie drop. If that is a
Speaker 3: trend that's going to spread out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think because that released that came out on
Speaker 1: the first of January, which was no accident. I think
Speaker 1: that was almost like, we know what your New Year's
Speaker 1: resolutions are, and they're about health. And so I've been
Speaker 1: interested to see what the health trends are going to
Speaker 1: be for twenty twenty five, and I think they're very
Speaker 1: influenced by him. So some of them are preventative medicine,
Speaker 1: so getting bigger and bigger. You'll hear people talk about,
Speaker 1: I do this to lower my risk of diabetes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I'm doing weights.
Speaker 1: At home health testing. So even with your paps. I
Speaker 1: did my pap smeir at home recently. That kind of
Speaker 1: sty convenient, very good AI coaching, and Brian Johnson talks
Speaker 1: about this, which is having an AI assistant. He says,
Speaker 1: it's our brain getting in the way of a lot
Speaker 1: of health decisions. An AI coach that says, exercise now,
Speaker 1: this is what.
Speaker 2: You do, this is what you should eat.
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. I'm only laughing because you know what
Speaker 3: I'm like. I'm like, you're not the botto of me.
Speaker 2: I know you know all the things that I know.
Speaker 3: You've consumed every piece of information in the entire universe
Speaker 3: about this, and you are telling me what is absolutely
Speaker 3: perfect from my particular body.
Speaker 2: But you are not the bottom of This is going
Speaker 2: to be the year of Holly saying no every time
Speaker 2: AI tells us something No.
Speaker 3: Out Louder is a massive thank you for being with
Speaker 3: us today while we solved all the problems of the world,
Speaker 3: especially those who created haikus specifically, maybe let's write a
Speaker 3: haiku about boiled eggs.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: I had a massive thank you to our fabulous team
Speaker 3: for putting this show together. We're going to be back
Speaker 3: in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Before we go out louders. So much happened over the
Speaker 1: break that we were desperate to talk about, so we
Speaker 1: packed it in to two subscriber episodes. The one that
Speaker 1: we dropped yesterday catch up about Yes, we had to
Speaker 1: catch up, not about our life Hugh Jackman and Suck Foster.
Speaker 1: That was important. And also Golden Globes mayor gave some
Speaker 1: opinions about some fashion and such things and you can
Speaker 1: find a link to that in our show notes.
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye. Shout out to any Muma Miya subscribers listening.
Speaker 2: If you love the show and want to support us
Speaker 2: as well, subscribing to mom and Mia is the very
Speaker 2: best way to do so. There is a link in
Speaker 2: the episode description