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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. It's just before

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Speaker 1: five am on the morning of February ninth, twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: It was still dark outside and Felicia Jamiers was lying

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Speaker 1: in bed next to her boyfriend Dean.

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Speaker 2: The house was quiet, and.

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Speaker 1: Felicia was just starting to wake up, in that place

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Speaker 1: of not quite asleep, but not yet fully conscious of

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Speaker 1: the world around you yet.

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Speaker 2: And suddenly there's a.

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Speaker 1: Violent crash, jolting her out of bed. Seconds later, a

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Speaker 1: door slams open, Shadows fill the hallways, Figures in dark tactical.

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Speaker 2: Gear a shouting over each other as they move in.

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Speaker 2: Felicia's heart is racing.

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Speaker 1: She's had no time to react when a metal object

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Speaker 1: is thrown into the room, landing on the bed beside her.

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Speaker 1: There's a blinding flash followed by a deafening blast. Heat

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Speaker 1: tears across her face and hand. She can't score, can't breathe. Disorientated,

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Speaker 1: she collapses against the sheets.

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Speaker 2: She can smell.

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Speaker 1: Burning voices are shouting, glasses smashing, boots are pounding across

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Speaker 1: the floor. She tries to drag herself to get to

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Speaker 1: some kind of safety, but her body is refusing to cooperate.

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Speaker 1: Then she feels the cold steel of a gun barrel

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Speaker 1: against her head. Is this a home invasion? What the

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Speaker 1: gunman says will simultaneously make it all make sense, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time even more confusing. He identifies himself

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Speaker 1: as a police officer. Rough hands pull her to standing

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Speaker 1: and deposit her on a chair. She's badly injured, but

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Speaker 1: the men who have stormed her home show no sympathy.

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Speaker 1: They want answers to their questions first. The paramedics would

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Speaker 1: arrive much later, their angry words blending into the background.

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Speaker 2: Everything is a blur.

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Speaker 1: There's lights and sounds, confusion, and so so much pain

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Speaker 1: as Felicia tries to make sense of what has just

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Speaker 1: happened to her. Why were police raiding her house like this?

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Speaker 1: Why would they throw flash grenades into her bedroom where

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Speaker 1: she was sleeping. She knew why they would have the

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Speaker 1: attention of the police, but why this level of violence

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Speaker 1: to apprehend her and Dean. It was all part of

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Speaker 1: a major drug trafficking investigation. But even though Felicia had

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Speaker 1: just suffered third degree burns and was seriously injured, she

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Speaker 1: was arrested by the police who'd wounded her. I'm Claire

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Speaker 1: Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who.

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Speaker 2: Know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: Just to heads up, we are speaking in some detail

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Speaker 1: about domestic violence in this episode. Remember help is available

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Speaker 1: at one eight hundred respect if you need to reach out.

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Speaker 1: Felicia Jamiaz comes from a family that honestly could have

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Speaker 1: a dozen books written about them. Russian grandparents who fled

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Speaker 1: the Nazis in Europe during World War Two, who, for

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Speaker 1: no reason that has ever been understood by the generations

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Speaker 1: who came after them, ended up here in Australia. Their

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Speaker 1: eleven children will make names for themselves in business, acting

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Speaker 1: as a middleman between Russia and countries who would like

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Speaker 1: to do business with the then Soviet Union, But in

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Speaker 1: the background there's generational trauma and alcohol addiction that tears

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Speaker 1: family members apart. Felicia is born into this big, wild

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Speaker 1: family who all live in a section of housing trust

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Speaker 1: homes in Blacktown in Sydney, her formal education coming with

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Speaker 1: a large dose of street smarts.

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Speaker 2: But when she finally strikes out on her.

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Speaker 1: Own, the notorious King's Cross becoming a second home to

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Speaker 1: this wily teenage girl. She would make friends with those

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Speaker 1: whose incomes did not come from legitimate sources, and while

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Speaker 1: she finds herself dressed to the nines in designer outfits,

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Speaker 1: she also has to navigate the world of vikis and

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Speaker 1: drug dealers, a decision that will set her on a

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Speaker 1: path that would ultimately lead her to that quiet morning

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Speaker 1: lying in bed, not knowing how it would change.

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Speaker 2: The course of her entire life.

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Speaker 1: For a bit of context here, Felicia was convicted of

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Speaker 1: drug trafficking, specifically involving the drug meth amphetamine, and became

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Speaker 1: embroiled in investigations into organized crime in Queensland. Her criminal

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Speaker 1: activities included being both a perpetrator and an accessory within

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Speaker 1: the drug trade, which eventually did lead to her arrest

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Speaker 1: and conviction. She has since become an advocate for women's

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Speaker 1: justice and trauma recovery, and she openly discusses her past

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Speaker 1: to highlight issues of violence, poverty, and the criminal legal system.

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Speaker 1: Felicia joins us, now, I wanted to start off with

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Speaker 1: your family because I feel like we could devote an

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Speaker 1: entire podcast series to your family history and the incredible,

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Speaker 1: amazing concerning things that your family have done over the years.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily a true crime podcast, but maybe true crime

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Speaker 1: I'm adjacent, perhaps over the years, but i'd really love

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Speaker 1: you to see give us, I don't know, a quick

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Speaker 1: rundown of your family, their origins and just some of

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Speaker 1: the things that made them stand out, because they seem

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Speaker 1: like they're all quite larger than life.

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Speaker 3: Definitely.

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Speaker 4: I come from a very big, loud family and also

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Speaker 4: a lot of people who have come before me. My grandparents,

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Speaker 4: my great grandparents have been through unimaginable struggles and I

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Speaker 4: think of them often because I went through a stage

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Speaker 4: where I felt I had to change myself, even down

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Speaker 4: to changing my name. And since writing this book, I

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Speaker 4: reflected on that and I thought I shouldn't have had

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Speaker 4: to have changed my name in order to be able

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Speaker 4: to get employment or to be accepted into society. When

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Speaker 4: my ancestors went through so much to keep their name,

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Speaker 4: to keep their identity, fought in wars, went through being

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Speaker 4: in you know, Nazi camps, great grandmothers who have been

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Speaker 4: in the missions in Australia, so so many things that

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Speaker 4: they've been through, you know, I just really reflected on

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Speaker 4: that and also the courage that it took for them

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Speaker 4: to get through those things as well. So it's been

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Speaker 4: really really nice to be able to reclaim my name,

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Speaker 4: which I've done recently.

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Speaker 3: So the cuts out of the bag.

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Speaker 4: Now, I can't, you know, hide behind a different name anymore.

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Speaker 3: Just for the sake of survival.

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Speaker 1: So your grandparents survived the invasion of Nazi Germany their

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Speaker 1: Russian origin, and for a long time they ended up

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Speaker 1: sort of floating around Europe as refugees, unable to get

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Speaker 1: back into Russia at the time, and then they, for

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Speaker 1: some reason unknown reason, end up in Australia and start

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Speaker 1: a life here. They go back to Russia, but they

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Speaker 1: come back to Australia again, and then you guys land

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Speaker 1: in Blacktown. Yeah, yeah, in housing commission, which is where

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Speaker 1: you essentially started your life too. Can you tell me

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Speaker 1: a bit about what it was like in Blacktown at

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Speaker 1: that time? Is that where the term houso's originated, in

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Speaker 1: the housing commissions of that kind of area. What was

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Speaker 1: it like growing up there?

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Speaker 4: I can't say I know exactly where the word hauso

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Speaker 4: comes from. I've used it a lot, and I've been

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Speaker 4: called one a lot, but I don't take offense to that.

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Speaker 4: I know I've been called halso before in a derogatory way,

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Speaker 4: and I've always taken it as a compliment because if

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Speaker 4: you're a hauso, that means you're made of grit, You've

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Speaker 4: got a lot of resilience, you've got a lot of

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Speaker 4: street smarts, and usually quite generous too. All the families

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Speaker 4: in my neighborhood were all really really generous, good hearted,

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Speaker 4: hard working people, so I never take offense to that.

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Speaker 4: So I'm not sure where that where the term houso's

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Speaker 4: came from, but I'm happy to claim it as coming

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Speaker 4: from Blacktown. My father's family lived in a cul de

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Speaker 4: sac in Debbi Way, and I mean the whole family

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Speaker 4: when they came out to Australia. So that's why one

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Speaker 4: of the chapters is culture Metis Away, because basically it

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Speaker 4: was like our street. There was so many of us

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Speaker 4: crammed in there. The house that I actually grew up in,

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Speaker 4: number nine, Debbie Way was the house that the Murphy brothers'

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Speaker 4: parents actually lived in, and when they were evicted, we

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Speaker 4: moved in.

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Speaker 3: So that just gives you a picture of what it

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Speaker 3: was like. And you know, the climate.

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Speaker 1: For those who don't know who the Murphy brothers are.

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Speaker 1: They were found guilty of murdering Anita Cobby.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, back in.

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Speaker 1: The eighties, seventies, eighties, So what was that like to

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Speaker 1: live in a house already connected to crime.

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Speaker 3: I was told growing up that our house.

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Speaker 4: Was built on I don't know if this is accurate

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Speaker 4: or not, but this is what I was told growing up.

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Speaker 3: That our house was built on an old rubbish chip.

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Speaker 4: And as kids, me and my cousins always imagined that

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Speaker 4: there was probably dead bodies dumped in there in the

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Speaker 4: garbage tips, So we always thought the houses were built

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Speaker 4: on something quite sinister. So we always kind of had

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Speaker 4: that already, even before I found out it was old

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Speaker 4: enough to kind of have knowledge of the anitocoppy situation.

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Speaker 3: And that's the house that we were living in.

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Speaker 1: I would love to know what Blacktown was like then,

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Speaker 1: because whilst you guys had your own little community and

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Speaker 1: your own family cul de sac there, blacktown itself was full,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, of really hard working, good people. But

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Speaker 1: it was not an easy life for people growing up there, right.

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Speaker 3: No, definitely not. It wasn't an easy life.

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Speaker 4: Everybody in that area was from a lower socioeconomic bracket.

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Speaker 4: We all had our struggles, but growing up I didn't

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Speaker 4: really recognize. When I was smaller, I didn't recognize those things.

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Speaker 4: I would play with my neighbor Abraham, and we would

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Speaker 4: go and make toys out of sticks and rocks, and

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Speaker 4: he was really creative because he was refugee and he

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Speaker 4: had to make toys out of nothing before in the camps.

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Speaker 4: So me and him were happy as just making toys

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Speaker 4: out of nothing and playing.

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Speaker 3: With my pets. Always had a lot of pets.

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Speaker 4: So growing up, being small didn't really feel it. It's

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Speaker 4: as you get older. As you get older, you start

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Speaker 4: to feel these things and recognize that, hey, my family

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Speaker 4: might be a bit different to yours.

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Speaker 3: You start to get that awareness.

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Speaker 1: Then things start to change for your family when the boys,

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Speaker 1: as in your dad and his brothers, your dad, Yuri

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Speaker 1: and his brothers, they get into businesses and they start

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Speaker 1: to make a really good living from it, and in

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Speaker 1: fact they start to do things like they're setting world records.

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Speaker 1: They are, you know, dealing with the Russian government. They

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Speaker 1: become kind of middlemen between Russia and various other foreign entities,

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Speaker 1: including Australia. At one stage, you mentioned that your dad

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Speaker 1: may have been some sort of arms stealer at some point,

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Speaker 1: but they always went he's.

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Speaker 3: My mother for information.

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Speaker 4: So she whilst writing the book and she has tight

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Speaker 4: liped she said, oh, I wouldn't know anything about that, Okay, Brenda.

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Speaker 1: So you kind of you guys are still living in

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Speaker 1: housing commission, but the money starts to really sort of

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Speaker 1: flow in for your family, and then your dad, Yuri

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Speaker 1: is he's a spender and so he's spoiling you and

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Speaker 1: he's bringing you all these amazing things that must have

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Speaker 1: been like quite an eye opener, but you were still young, Like,

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Speaker 1: how did you process that? Looking back at it?

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Speaker 4: Looking back at it at the time, I again didn't

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Speaker 4: think it was anything different from potentially what other families

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Speaker 4: would do. And I love nice things. I wouldn't call

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Speaker 4: myself materialistic, but I like nice things. I think we

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Speaker 4: all do. And reflecting on that kind of relationship that

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Speaker 4: I had with my father, he would go away for

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Speaker 4: long periods of time overseas, so there would be an

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Speaker 4: absence there and I would miss him a lot, and

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Speaker 4: then when he'd come home, he'd have gifts and it

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Speaker 4: was almost like an overcompensation for.

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Speaker 3: The time that he had been away.

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Speaker 4: And I kind of realized that in my adult life

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Speaker 4: and in my adult relationship similar things were going on

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Speaker 4: with the gifting and men buying me presents and all

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Speaker 4: of those type of things that I do talk about

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Speaker 4: in the book. So I realized that there was a

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Speaker 4: pattern and a correlation there. And I think we all

223
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Speaker 4: look back at our childhoods and we can look where

224
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Speaker 4: there's patterns and correlations in relationships and how our childhood

225
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Speaker 4: life kind of can repeat itself in other ways in

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Speaker 4: our adult life. So it was insightful for me to

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Speaker 4: reflect on those things. Well.

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Speaker 1: As you grow up, you show that you have quite

229
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Speaker 1: the independent streak. You're sent to a very strict school

230
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Speaker 1: of which the rules you were not overly happy with,

231
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Speaker 1: and so would often tell your parents, I'm leaving if

232
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Speaker 1: I don't agree with what's happened today, and they were like, okay,

233
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Speaker 1: but you are still underage when you start to head

234
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Speaker 1: out into King's Cross in Sydney and start to really

235
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Speaker 1: explore the nightlife there.

236
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Speaker 2: What was that experience like as.

237
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Speaker 1: A young woman, because you're not naive, you haven't come

238
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Speaker 1: from a place where you would be shocked by some

239
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Speaker 1: of the things that you maybe would see in the Cross.

240
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Speaker 1: But what was that like as a really young woman

241
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Speaker 1: navigating You know, there's going to be men you're you know,

242
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Speaker 1: you're a beautiful woman.

243
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Speaker 2: There's going to be men who want you.

244
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Speaker 1: There's going to be men who want to take from you, Like,

245
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Speaker 1: how did you navigate that?

246
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Speaker 4: At the time, I felt it was really really fun

247
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Speaker 4: and exciting.

248
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Speaker 3: I felt a little bit bored.

249
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Speaker 4: I felt a little bit bored doing the normal things

250
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Speaker 4: that normal kids would do at my age, For example,

251
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Speaker 4: sixteen and I found a world that I could gape

252
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Speaker 4: into and I absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it. One

253
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Speaker 4: of the most fun times of my life. But I

254
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Speaker 4: had a daughter and I found out she was going

255
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Speaker 4: to King's Cross at sixteen.

256
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Speaker 3: I would not be happy. I look back and I think,

257
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Speaker 3: oh my god, Felicia, what what were doing? What we're thinking?

258
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Speaker 4: I was very street smart, so I always felt safe.

259
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Speaker 4: But irrespective of that, there's always risks and dangers when

260
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Speaker 4: you go out as a woman. Even now, there's drinks spiking,

261
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Speaker 4: there's all sorts of things that go on. Back then,

262
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Speaker 4: the culture was a little bit different to what you

263
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Speaker 4: would see now. So back in those days, when I

264
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Speaker 4: would go out clubbing, underage men would like slap you

265
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Speaker 4: on the ass or grab you and go oh ha,

266
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Speaker 4: act like it's a joke. And it was actually really

267
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Speaker 4: socially acceptable at the time. There was no consequences. There

268
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Speaker 4: wasn't any charger or I'm going to call the police

269
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Speaker 4: or I'm going to report you to security. It was

270
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Speaker 4: really really widely accepted.

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Speaker 1: Was that when you started to dabble in drugs and

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Speaker 1: alcohol in that time, still underage going to clubs.

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Speaker 4: I would drink under age, but I didn't do cocaine

274
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Speaker 4: until it was over age. So I was a little

275
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Speaker 4: bit older when I started to do coke. And I've

276
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Speaker 4: got the type of personality and if you know me,

277
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Speaker 4: oh my friends know this. I'm the type of person

278
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Speaker 4: that will always say, oh, I want to try that

279
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Speaker 4: to see what it feels like. I want to experience that.

280
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Speaker 4: Not the greatest attitude to have when it comes to drugs,

281
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Speaker 4: probably not, but that's what it.

282
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Speaker 3: Was a case of.

283
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Speaker 4: You know, I thought, hey, why not everyone around me

284
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Speaker 4: was doing it, and it was perceived as a drug

285
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Speaker 4: of affluence as opposed to you know, poor men's crack

286
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Speaker 4: or you know all the other drugs that we see

287
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Speaker 4: out and about.

288
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Speaker 3: So I viewed it in a different way.

289
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Speaker 4: I didn't view it for what it was maybe, you know,

290
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Speaker 4: just recreational drug and.

291
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Speaker 3: Inking's cross at the time.

292
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Speaker 4: If you had cocaine or you were doing cocaine, you

293
00:16:16,032 --> 00:16:18,712
Speaker 4: were someone, you had status, you could afford it.

294
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Speaker 3: And I think I like that.

295
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Speaker 4: Aspect of it as well because it played into me

296
00:16:22,792 --> 00:16:25,792
Speaker 4: going there and being someone else, and also too, I

297
00:16:25,832 --> 00:16:28,552
Speaker 4: could just forget about everything else that was going on

298
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Speaker 4: and I could just enjoy myself.

299
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Speaker 1: Were you aware of the criminal aspect of those who

300
00:16:35,512 --> 00:16:37,832
Speaker 1: were running across at the time, like the Ibrahims, etc.

301
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Speaker 2: Like?

302
00:16:38,392 --> 00:16:40,992
Speaker 1: Were you how across their activity would you have been

303
00:16:41,032 --> 00:16:41,912
Speaker 1: as a young woman.

304
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Speaker 4: In regards to that, there was a culture of you know,

305
00:16:46,352 --> 00:16:48,632
Speaker 4: the women don't get involved in that type of stuff.

306
00:16:48,792 --> 00:16:52,152
Speaker 4: It's unspoken. So whatever goes on goes on. But it's

307
00:16:52,152 --> 00:16:55,952
Speaker 4: the boy's business. It's really not women's business, so we

308
00:16:56,072 --> 00:16:58,952
Speaker 4: get kept out of all of that. But you are

309
00:16:59,032 --> 00:17:01,431
Speaker 4: aware that there is stuff going on obviously.

310
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Speaker 3: So yeah, So.

311
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Speaker 1: While you're escaping to the cross and dressing up to

312
00:17:08,192 --> 00:17:11,191
Speaker 1: the nines in your finer things, which you said you

313
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Speaker 1: were quite fond of, home life wasn't the same.

314
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Speaker 2: So your dad Yuri.

315
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Speaker 1: Well, he sounds like a doting dad and a larger

316
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Speaker 1: than life character. Really struggled with the demons of alcoholism,

317
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Speaker 1: and you were part of that downfall.

318
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Speaker 2: In fact, you're caring for him a lot of the time.

319
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Speaker 1: You're talking your book about sometimes finding him on park

320
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Speaker 1: benches and having to sort of pick him up and

321
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Speaker 1: take him home. What was that like for you to

322
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Speaker 1: have those two very different worlds going on at the

323
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Speaker 1: same time. Because anyone who's lived with an alcoholic or

324
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Speaker 1: who knows an alcoholic knows how absolutely devastating that disease

325
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Speaker 1: can be.

326
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Speaker 2: How did you navigate that?

327
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Speaker 4: I think that there wouldn't have been two worlds if

328
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Speaker 4: there wasn't the alcoholism to begin with. So I don't

329
00:18:01,792 --> 00:18:04,071
Speaker 4: think I would have felt that need for escape if

330
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Speaker 4: that wasn't going on in my home life. So I

331
00:18:07,752 --> 00:18:12,031
Speaker 4: just learned to juggle those two worlds basically, And it

332
00:18:12,111 --> 00:18:13,512
Speaker 4: is really, really difficult.

333
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Speaker 3: It's an awful disease.

334
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Speaker 4: I forgive my father for his addictions or his behaviors,

335
00:18:20,591 --> 00:18:23,871
Speaker 4: I should say, because I know that he went through

336
00:18:23,911 --> 00:18:28,231
Speaker 4: some really really traumatic stuff growing up, really traumatic stuff.

337
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Speaker 4: And culturally, and when we look at the Slavic culture,

338
00:18:34,472 --> 00:18:38,192
Speaker 4: Also when we look at men, that's another layer. They're

339
00:18:38,272 --> 00:18:40,871
Speaker 4: kind of taught to not be vulnerable, to suck it up.

340
00:18:40,952 --> 00:18:43,711
Speaker 4: If you've got a problem, just have a drink and

341
00:18:43,792 --> 00:18:46,472
Speaker 4: deal with it manner. Basically, you know, have a cup

342
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Speaker 4: of concrete, But how many cups of concrete can you

343
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Speaker 4: have until it starts to kill you. So I don't

344
00:18:53,071 --> 00:18:57,111
Speaker 4: think he was in an environment or he was Society

345
00:18:57,192 --> 00:18:59,632
Speaker 4: was there at the time. It's a lot more socially

346
00:18:59,631 --> 00:19:02,911
Speaker 4: acceptable for men to speak up now, whereas you know,

347
00:19:02,992 --> 00:19:05,991
Speaker 4: when my father had his issues with addiction, it wasn't

348
00:19:06,071 --> 00:19:09,671
Speaker 4: as socially acceptable if you showed vulnerability or if you

349
00:19:09,752 --> 00:19:12,311
Speaker 4: spoke up as a man, you were seeing weak not

350
00:19:12,631 --> 00:19:16,711
Speaker 4: just in society, but also within the family too. You know,

351
00:19:17,671 --> 00:19:20,392
Speaker 4: mental health wasn't a real thing man up deal with it.

352
00:19:21,192 --> 00:19:23,831
Speaker 4: So he was trying to deal with his demons the

353
00:19:23,831 --> 00:19:25,512
Speaker 4: best way that he could.

354
00:19:26,512 --> 00:19:29,831
Speaker 1: So for him, his alcoholism really sort of took over

355
00:19:29,871 --> 00:19:32,951
Speaker 1: his life. And so yeah, also to the passing of

356
00:19:32,952 --> 00:19:36,191
Speaker 1: your grandmother, it sort of led to your family to

357
00:19:36,272 --> 00:19:38,431
Speaker 1: fall apart a little bit. There was in fighting between

358
00:19:38,431 --> 00:19:41,831
Speaker 1: the brothers and so businesses failed that to sell off property,

359
00:19:41,952 --> 00:19:45,671
Speaker 1: so financially you'd gone from rags to riches back to

360
00:19:45,792 --> 00:19:49,351
Speaker 1: rags again essentially, So you then have to find ways

361
00:19:49,391 --> 00:19:52,231
Speaker 1: to make money. And so you dabbled a little bit

362
00:19:52,232 --> 00:19:55,391
Speaker 1: in modeling, and you know, you'd won a competition on

363
00:19:55,512 --> 00:19:58,591
Speaker 1: Channel V and got money that way. But then what

364
00:19:59,512 --> 00:20:01,711
Speaker 1: led you to pageants was it about the money?

365
00:20:02,472 --> 00:20:06,191
Speaker 4: So the way that other people saw me I used,

366
00:20:06,512 --> 00:20:08,472
Speaker 4: I guess as a commodity or a way to earn

367
00:20:08,512 --> 00:20:10,231
Speaker 4: money that I felt was easy.

368
00:20:10,272 --> 00:20:12,591
Speaker 3: Well, trim me to pageants was the travel, And I

369
00:20:12,631 --> 00:20:13,992
Speaker 3: guess that there again there's.

370
00:20:13,831 --> 00:20:17,272
Speaker 4: That escapism that that I'm trying that I was trying

371
00:20:17,311 --> 00:20:19,192
Speaker 4: to do to cope with what was going on. So

372
00:20:19,992 --> 00:20:22,031
Speaker 4: when you're in the pageant, you get a trip overseas,

373
00:20:22,431 --> 00:20:25,151
Speaker 4: and that's a really really good way for somebody who's

374
00:20:25,232 --> 00:20:28,151
Speaker 4: young to get a good trip overseas with a whole

375
00:20:28,192 --> 00:20:31,192
Speaker 4: host of other girls, and you know, get to try

376
00:20:31,311 --> 00:20:33,591
Speaker 4: new food and meet new people, and it's just so

377
00:20:33,712 --> 00:20:36,591
Speaker 4: appealing to me. So the beauty aspect of it, I

378
00:20:36,631 --> 00:20:39,032
Speaker 4: didn't really care that much. I just wanted the trips

379
00:20:39,431 --> 00:20:41,032
Speaker 4: and all the perks that came along with it.

380
00:20:41,151 --> 00:20:43,871
Speaker 1: You know, I was at this idea that when you

381
00:20:43,911 --> 00:20:46,391
Speaker 1: become a miss anything so you were Miss Australia at

382
00:20:46,391 --> 00:20:48,352
Speaker 1: one stage that there was this idea that you had

383
00:20:48,391 --> 00:20:51,672
Speaker 1: to be kind of present this image to the public

384
00:20:51,752 --> 00:20:55,151
Speaker 1: being a representative of the Miss Australia title, but you know,

385
00:20:55,192 --> 00:21:00,472
Speaker 1: in the background, you know, you're doing cocaine, you're out

386
00:21:00,472 --> 00:21:03,112
Speaker 1: of the cross Like, was there ever a questioned about

387
00:21:03,272 --> 00:21:06,232
Speaker 1: you being Miss Australia and also doing you know, having

388
00:21:06,351 --> 00:21:07,472
Speaker 1: the social life that you had.

389
00:21:08,032 --> 00:21:12,032
Speaker 4: Well, during the time that I was doing pageants, I

390
00:21:12,192 --> 00:21:17,831
Speaker 4: wasn't really partying that much, so it didn't really interfer

391
00:21:18,232 --> 00:21:23,032
Speaker 4: or crossover that much. Yeah, So no, that didn't really

392
00:21:23,151 --> 00:21:26,191
Speaker 4: come into play too much. And I mean, I'm pretty

393
00:21:26,192 --> 00:21:32,311
Speaker 4: good at keeping secrets, so no one really found out

394
00:21:34,431 --> 00:21:36,351
Speaker 4: until now everyone knows everything.

395
00:21:36,831 --> 00:21:39,272
Speaker 2: Now you've said it to the entire world. What was

396
00:21:39,272 --> 00:21:39,591
Speaker 2: that like?

397
00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:39,792
Speaker 3: Though?

398
00:21:39,792 --> 00:21:43,432
Speaker 1: In the opposite direction, So after you were in pageants

399
00:21:43,431 --> 00:21:47,271
Speaker 1: and you won those titles and then you are out partying,

400
00:21:47,311 --> 00:21:50,911
Speaker 1: did people view you differently? Did you like, were you

401
00:21:50,992 --> 00:21:53,591
Speaker 1: invited into a bit more exclusivity when it came to

402
00:21:53,671 --> 00:21:55,311
Speaker 1: going to those clubs or was that just part of

403
00:21:55,311 --> 00:21:57,231
Speaker 1: the fact that you were already part of the scene

404
00:21:57,232 --> 00:21:59,472
Speaker 1: and kind of known at the nightclubs in the Cross

405
00:21:59,512 --> 00:22:02,431
Speaker 1: that allowed you to essentially kind of just be a

406
00:22:02,512 --> 00:22:04,672
Speaker 1: VIP wherever you went, right, I.

407
00:22:04,712 --> 00:22:06,591
Speaker 4: Was already part of that scene and a lot of

408
00:22:06,631 --> 00:22:10,511
Speaker 4: people that run the cross and that used to have

409
00:22:10,512 --> 00:22:14,152
Speaker 4: control in those areas I grew up with. They're from

410
00:22:14,151 --> 00:22:17,911
Speaker 4: the same Gunno that I came from. So we always

411
00:22:18,232 --> 00:22:18,872
Speaker 4: had that.

412
00:22:18,792 --> 00:22:19,951
Speaker 3: Group or that crew.

413
00:22:20,911 --> 00:22:23,911
Speaker 4: So all of the things that happened in my life,

414
00:22:23,992 --> 00:22:27,071
Speaker 4: and it didn't matter where I went or what I

415
00:22:27,192 --> 00:22:29,791
Speaker 4: was doing, for example, say I want a pageant or

416
00:22:29,831 --> 00:22:32,151
Speaker 4: whatever it might have been, I still had that same

417
00:22:32,192 --> 00:22:35,311
Speaker 4: circle of friends that the new people that would come

418
00:22:35,311 --> 00:22:37,911
Speaker 4: in with just additions to that. But my core circle

419
00:22:37,992 --> 00:22:41,631
Speaker 4: for a very long time was the other people that

420
00:22:41,712 --> 00:22:42,871
Speaker 4: had also grown up.

421
00:22:42,752 --> 00:22:45,231
Speaker 3: The same way that I had grown up, and we

422
00:22:45,272 --> 00:22:46,151
Speaker 3: always stuck together.

423
00:22:47,111 --> 00:22:49,351
Speaker 2: Talk to me about being attracted to bikeys.

424
00:22:49,831 --> 00:22:52,351
Speaker 4: The bike is scene in the bike is very different

425
00:22:52,391 --> 00:22:57,231
Speaker 4: back then to now, and I didn't go out seeking that.

426
00:22:58,111 --> 00:23:00,832
Speaker 3: It's just that a lot of the people that I knew.

427
00:23:01,351 --> 00:23:03,111
Speaker 4: Or the men that I knew who were boys and

428
00:23:03,111 --> 00:23:06,512
Speaker 4: grew up to be men, already knew them from fild

429
00:23:07,351 --> 00:23:11,031
Speaker 4: and I felt like we already.

430
00:23:10,552 --> 00:23:12,031
Speaker 3: Had a lot of things in common.

431
00:23:12,831 --> 00:23:15,152
Speaker 4: I could be fully myself with them and they could

432
00:23:15,192 --> 00:23:16,471
Speaker 4: be fully themselves with me.

433
00:23:17,071 --> 00:23:18,591
Speaker 3: There's always barriers there where.

434
00:23:18,952 --> 00:23:21,752
Speaker 4: If you meet a guy who looks really, really good

435
00:23:21,752 --> 00:23:25,151
Speaker 4: on paper and then they see where you've come from,

436
00:23:25,631 --> 00:23:27,591
Speaker 4: suddenly maybe you're not such a match for.

437
00:23:27,552 --> 00:23:30,151
Speaker 3: Them because you're you're not going to cut it at

438
00:23:30,192 --> 00:23:30,831
Speaker 3: the dinner.

439
00:23:30,591 --> 00:23:33,511
Speaker 4: Table when you know you meet their parents or whatever

440
00:23:33,552 --> 00:23:36,671
Speaker 4: it might be. So all of the men that I

441
00:23:36,792 --> 00:23:40,351
Speaker 4: dated or been with from that world, the appeal wasn't

442
00:23:40,391 --> 00:23:43,392
Speaker 4: the fact that they were Bikis or that they were

443
00:23:43,591 --> 00:23:47,071
Speaker 4: in that world. The appeals that we had a connectedness

444
00:23:47,071 --> 00:23:50,432
Speaker 4: over the fact that we grew up under similar circumstances

445
00:23:50,911 --> 00:23:53,552
Speaker 4: and there was no judgment. And I always felt very

446
00:23:53,552 --> 00:23:57,471
Speaker 4: comfortable and at home with those type of people because

447
00:23:57,472 --> 00:23:59,191
Speaker 4: I was one of those type of people. Well I

448
00:23:59,232 --> 00:24:02,792
Speaker 4: still am, so I guess that maybe explains it, so

449
00:24:02,871 --> 00:24:06,752
Speaker 4: that the tattoos and the good body is just a bonus.

450
00:24:07,712 --> 00:24:08,392
Speaker 3: On top of that.

451
00:24:09,512 --> 00:24:11,152
Speaker 1: You also mention in your book two that you kind

452
00:24:11,192 --> 00:24:15,151
Speaker 1: of liked the bikey ethos in that you know, you know,

453
00:24:15,272 --> 00:24:18,111
Speaker 1: I am my brother's keeper, in that people were loyal

454
00:24:18,351 --> 00:24:21,472
Speaker 1: and had each other's back and essentially became their own family.

455
00:24:21,631 --> 00:24:24,192
Speaker 1: Was that something that resonated with you.

456
00:24:24,311 --> 00:24:26,831
Speaker 3: Yes, I did like that aspect of it.

457
00:24:27,431 --> 00:24:30,151
Speaker 4: That aspect of it was really appealing to me, and

458
00:24:30,192 --> 00:24:32,311
Speaker 4: I think it was really appealing to a lot of

459
00:24:32,351 --> 00:24:35,752
Speaker 4: the young boys that did gravitate towards that gang culture.

460
00:24:36,552 --> 00:24:39,632
Speaker 4: So essentially, if you're from a broken family or you've

461
00:24:39,631 --> 00:24:42,591
Speaker 4: had a traumatic childhood and you don't ever feel like

462
00:24:42,631 --> 00:24:46,351
Speaker 4: you quite belong, you have a logging within your heart

463
00:24:46,552 --> 00:24:49,512
Speaker 4: to belong and to have a family, and the bike

464
00:24:49,591 --> 00:24:52,111
Speaker 4: clothes back then would fill that gap. And they knew

465
00:24:52,111 --> 00:24:54,631
Speaker 4: that they filled that gap. And once they've got you,

466
00:24:54,671 --> 00:24:56,631
Speaker 4: they know you're going to do anything you can to

467
00:24:56,712 --> 00:24:59,992
Speaker 4: keep that feeling and that sense of family. And I've

468
00:24:59,992 --> 00:25:03,111
Speaker 4: got someone to have my back and because they're going

469
00:25:03,111 --> 00:25:06,152
Speaker 4: to be there for me, and everybody wants to belong,

470
00:25:06,591 --> 00:25:12,191
Speaker 4: So these boys that gravitated into gang culture, really it

471
00:25:12,232 --> 00:25:15,271
Speaker 4: comes from a place of brokenness and a longing just

472
00:25:15,311 --> 00:25:15,912
Speaker 4: to belong.

473
00:25:20,032 --> 00:25:23,231
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Chrime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

474
00:25:23,431 --> 00:25:27,111
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Felicia Jimiers, a counselor, Miss Australia winner

475
00:25:27,351 --> 00:25:30,911
Speaker 1: and convicted drug dealer. Up next, Felicia tells us about

476
00:25:30,952 --> 00:25:34,831
Speaker 1: her first real relationship with a bikey, the man who

477
00:25:34,871 --> 00:25:40,552
Speaker 1: introduced her to the world of drug dealing. Talk to

478
00:25:40,591 --> 00:25:45,552
Speaker 1: me about Cam. So he's the first real serious relationship

479
00:25:45,591 --> 00:25:52,032
Speaker 1: you have. He's involved with a motorcycle club, and then

480
00:25:53,232 --> 00:25:59,911
Speaker 1: things start to go south in that as he rises

481
00:25:59,911 --> 00:26:03,191
Speaker 1: through the bike he ranks. It puts him more and

482
00:26:03,272 --> 00:26:08,631
Speaker 1: more in the sphere of not just selling drugs but

483
00:26:08,792 --> 00:26:11,951
Speaker 1: making them. Yeah, what did that do to him? And

484
00:26:11,992 --> 00:26:13,432
Speaker 1: what did that duty your relationship?

485
00:26:14,472 --> 00:26:19,911
Speaker 4: When I first met Cam, the things that became issues

486
00:26:19,992 --> 00:26:25,792
Speaker 4: later did not exist, and he was only a norm.

487
00:26:26,111 --> 00:26:29,431
Speaker 3: So when you're a norm, it means that you know,

488
00:26:29,472 --> 00:26:31,472
Speaker 3: you've just joined the club. You have to prove yourself.

489
00:26:31,831 --> 00:26:33,591
Speaker 4: You do a lot of the shitkicker jobs, and then

490
00:26:33,631 --> 00:26:35,471
Speaker 4: you have to move your way up in the ranks.

491
00:26:35,512 --> 00:26:38,792
Speaker 4: And he moved up quite quickly. And when I was

492
00:26:38,831 --> 00:26:42,392
Speaker 4: young and we were partying, I didn't really think much

493
00:26:42,431 --> 00:26:44,752
Speaker 4: of it. I just thought, oh, yeah, he's a norm

494
00:26:45,032 --> 00:26:47,911
Speaker 4: who cares ha ha. I thought it was one big joke.

495
00:26:48,752 --> 00:26:51,191
Speaker 4: I like to go to the clubhouse parties. It was fun,

496
00:26:51,431 --> 00:26:55,711
Speaker 4: it was exciting, but then things escalated quite quickly. He

497
00:26:55,831 --> 00:26:59,751
Speaker 4: was very charismatic, great sense of humor, generous, and he

498
00:26:59,871 --> 00:27:03,311
Speaker 4: was intimidating. He made a great standover man. If you

499
00:27:03,351 --> 00:27:05,831
Speaker 4: make a good standover man, you can make a lot

500
00:27:05,831 --> 00:27:08,792
Speaker 4: of money, and you can move up the ranks quickly

501
00:27:08,911 --> 00:27:11,952
Speaker 4: because everyone likes a man that can collect a debt

502
00:27:11,992 --> 00:27:15,432
Speaker 4: for you. So he was very appealing all of those

503
00:27:15,431 --> 00:27:19,151
Speaker 4: ways for the club. I didn't expect for things to

504
00:27:19,232 --> 00:27:23,192
Speaker 4: escalate the way that they did. When he started cooking,

505
00:27:23,232 --> 00:27:28,512
Speaker 4: he started to become very, very mentally unstable.

506
00:27:29,552 --> 00:27:31,831
Speaker 3: He wasn't well within himself.

507
00:27:31,952 --> 00:27:35,951
Speaker 4: He started making a lot of questionable decisions, and I

508
00:27:35,992 --> 00:27:40,431
Speaker 4: felt quite trapped. And he wasn't violent until the latter

509
00:27:40,512 --> 00:27:43,712
Speaker 4: part of the relationship. I think at the core, at

510
00:27:43,752 --> 00:27:46,672
Speaker 4: the core of him, he is a very good person.

511
00:27:47,232 --> 00:27:49,992
Speaker 4: He just lost his way. He just lost his way

512
00:27:50,032 --> 00:27:52,552
Speaker 4: with drugs, and I did everything I could to try

513
00:27:52,591 --> 00:27:54,992
Speaker 4: and support him, supported him.

514
00:27:54,911 --> 00:27:55,911
Speaker 3: To go into rehab.

515
00:27:56,472 --> 00:27:59,032
Speaker 4: He went into rehab, he left rehab, he didn't want

516
00:27:59,071 --> 00:28:01,752
Speaker 4: to stay, and it just got to the point where

517
00:28:01,792 --> 00:28:05,472
Speaker 4: I thought, I can't do anything more to help this person,

518
00:28:05,631 --> 00:28:08,471
Speaker 4: but I have to. And at the time I couldn't

519
00:28:08,472 --> 00:28:10,471
Speaker 4: see that I was repeating the pattern that I had

520
00:28:10,512 --> 00:28:13,392
Speaker 4: grown up with having a father who had an addiction issue.

521
00:28:14,032 --> 00:28:18,792
Speaker 4: That I was forever trying to fix Ury and his issues,

522
00:28:19,111 --> 00:28:22,071
Speaker 4: and then that just was replaced by Cam and his issues.

523
00:28:22,431 --> 00:28:25,152
Speaker 4: And also I feel like maybe I accepted the behaviors

524
00:28:25,311 --> 00:28:28,352
Speaker 4: more because I grew up seeing those behaviors.

525
00:28:29,232 --> 00:28:32,591
Speaker 1: So it does get violent later on as his exposure

526
00:28:32,631 --> 00:28:36,871
Speaker 1: to drugs and his addiction worsens. And this is something

527
00:28:36,871 --> 00:28:40,072
Speaker 1: you talk about in the book, which I think many

528
00:28:40,112 --> 00:28:43,592
Speaker 1: women who found themselves in a situation experiencing domestic violence

529
00:28:43,952 --> 00:28:48,192
Speaker 1: is you might have had opportunities to leave and then

530
00:28:48,272 --> 00:28:51,512
Speaker 1: chose not to, or you found yourself in a situation

531
00:28:51,552 --> 00:28:55,751
Speaker 1: where leaving would potentially put your life at risk, and

532
00:28:55,792 --> 00:28:58,231
Speaker 1: so you have to make so many choices and decisions

533
00:28:58,272 --> 00:29:01,832
Speaker 1: that many people who haven't experienced domestic violence just would

534
00:29:01,872 --> 00:29:07,072
Speaker 1: not understand. How did you actually get to the point

535
00:29:07,112 --> 00:29:09,991
Speaker 1: where you're like, no, I've got to get out of

536
00:29:10,032 --> 00:29:12,952
Speaker 1: this and then make that final choice for yourself.

537
00:29:13,032 --> 00:29:15,872
Speaker 4: Yeah, with that, I wanted to leave for quite a

538
00:29:15,872 --> 00:29:18,872
Speaker 4: long time. I've found out that he was cheating on me,

539
00:29:19,752 --> 00:29:24,312
Speaker 4: and obviously I wasn't happy about that. And for me,

540
00:29:24,512 --> 00:29:28,192
Speaker 4: if someone cheats, done done. Deal each to their own.

541
00:29:28,232 --> 00:29:32,392
Speaker 4: But I'm very big on being honest and saying, hey,

542
00:29:32,431 --> 00:29:33,592
Speaker 4: you know I don't want to be with you anymore,

543
00:29:33,632 --> 00:29:34,352
Speaker 4: whatever it might be.

544
00:29:34,832 --> 00:29:36,511
Speaker 3: But he wanted to have his cake and eat it too,

545
00:29:38,392 --> 00:29:41,792
Speaker 3: as a lot of people do. So anyway, I wanted

546
00:29:41,792 --> 00:29:43,352
Speaker 3: to leave from that point, but.

547
00:29:44,911 --> 00:29:49,472
Speaker 4: I stayed because he had the tendency to become violent.

548
00:29:49,552 --> 00:29:53,112
Speaker 4: So anything I would confront him with it could escalate

549
00:29:53,352 --> 00:29:56,112
Speaker 4: into something that I may not be able to contain

550
00:29:56,312 --> 00:29:59,392
Speaker 4: on my own, and I'd put myself and my family

551
00:29:59,431 --> 00:29:59,951
Speaker 4: in danger.

552
00:30:00,392 --> 00:30:03,471
Speaker 1: We'd even gone to like the head of the biking

553
00:30:03,552 --> 00:30:04,911
Speaker 1: club ride and ask for help.

554
00:30:05,032 --> 00:30:09,431
Speaker 4: Yeah, I said, he's loose, and he's a cumbersome liability

555
00:30:09,472 --> 00:30:10,032
Speaker 4: to the club.

556
00:30:10,152 --> 00:30:11,232
Speaker 3: You should take his best.

557
00:30:11,272 --> 00:30:14,392
Speaker 4: He doesn't deserve to have such a high ranking in

558
00:30:14,431 --> 00:30:16,912
Speaker 4: the club if he's acting this way. I actually said,

559
00:30:16,952 --> 00:30:21,911
Speaker 4: it's fucking embarrassing, and it is what leader acts like that.

560
00:30:22,232 --> 00:30:26,072
Speaker 4: A leader doesn't hit women in any sphere, whether that's

561
00:30:26,632 --> 00:30:29,232
Speaker 4: the gang world or you know, whether that's in your

562
00:30:29,232 --> 00:30:32,671
Speaker 4: everyday life or every day world. A real leader and

563
00:30:32,712 --> 00:30:36,792
Speaker 4: a real man doesn't hit women, doesn't abuse women. It's

564
00:30:36,872 --> 00:30:41,511
Speaker 4: just it shouldn't fly anywhere. So I went there and

565
00:30:41,592 --> 00:30:46,952
Speaker 4: I asked for help. Look, I think their intentions were good,

566
00:30:46,992 --> 00:30:50,112
Speaker 4: but the follow through wasn't by that time, it was

567
00:30:50,232 --> 00:30:53,152
Speaker 4: kind of too late. The moment I knew I had

568
00:30:53,152 --> 00:30:55,951
Speaker 4: to leave past the cheating was when he strangled me,

569
00:30:56,232 --> 00:30:59,392
Speaker 4: and he strangled me until I was unconscious, and I

570
00:30:59,431 --> 00:31:03,712
Speaker 4: woke up in the hospital and he strangled me because

571
00:31:04,952 --> 00:31:08,832
Speaker 4: he thought I was looking at an guy at a party,

572
00:31:08,872 --> 00:31:11,432
Speaker 4: and it was just his paranoia, even if I was

573
00:31:11,712 --> 00:31:16,552
Speaker 4: nothing warrants any kind of you know, abuse, but he

574
00:31:16,592 --> 00:31:18,471
Speaker 4: thought I was looking at some other guy at the party,

575
00:31:18,512 --> 00:31:21,632
Speaker 4: and then he strangled me in front of everyone, mind you.

576
00:31:22,431 --> 00:31:25,832
Speaker 4: So then after that, I thought, I really have to

577
00:31:25,911 --> 00:31:29,671
Speaker 4: get the fuck out of this situation. And that's also

578
00:31:29,792 --> 00:31:31,752
Speaker 4: too and I'm not sure it might be a bit

579
00:31:31,792 --> 00:31:33,951
Speaker 4: more well known now, but at the time it wasn't

580
00:31:34,032 --> 00:31:39,191
Speaker 4: really that wide. They spoken about that when strangulation is involved,

581
00:31:40,592 --> 00:31:44,872
Speaker 4: the violence is likely to escalate into you know, femicide,

582
00:31:45,232 --> 00:31:47,312
Speaker 4: and I thought, he's going to fucking kill me if

583
00:31:47,352 --> 00:31:50,191
Speaker 4: I do not get out of this situation. But I

584
00:31:50,312 --> 00:31:53,392
Speaker 4: needed to try and meticulously plan it because he had

585
00:31:53,431 --> 00:31:56,272
Speaker 4: access to guns, and then.

586
00:31:56,632 --> 00:31:57,751
Speaker 3: He tried to shoot me.

587
00:31:58,032 --> 00:32:02,352
Speaker 4: So after that, I literally left and I went to

588
00:32:02,392 --> 00:32:03,511
Speaker 4: central New South Wales.

589
00:32:04,312 --> 00:32:06,991
Speaker 3: I just got out of there. I had to. I

590
00:32:06,992 --> 00:32:08,032
Speaker 3: had no other choice.

591
00:32:08,192 --> 00:32:10,711
Speaker 4: But I was still fearful for my parents because of

592
00:32:10,752 --> 00:32:12,711
Speaker 4: the fact that he was using so much.

593
00:32:13,552 --> 00:32:14,951
Speaker 3: He was really, really loose.

594
00:32:15,552 --> 00:32:18,632
Speaker 4: So when somebody is like that, you cannot predict what

595
00:32:18,671 --> 00:32:22,032
Speaker 4: they're going to do. And he'd made threats against my mother,

596
00:32:22,592 --> 00:32:25,832
Speaker 4: he'd made threats against my father, and because he was

597
00:32:25,911 --> 00:32:27,952
Speaker 4: under the influence, I knew that there was a high

598
00:32:27,992 --> 00:32:30,552
Speaker 4: potential that he could carry that out and then sober

599
00:32:30,671 --> 00:32:32,431
Speaker 4: up later and go, oh shit, what have I done?

600
00:32:32,712 --> 00:32:37,712
Speaker 4: Because that happens in a lot of cases too. So yeah, well, I.

601
00:32:37,632 --> 00:32:39,712
Speaker 1: Guess you would never have imagined, but the man who

602
00:32:39,752 --> 00:32:43,672
Speaker 1: helped you find out that Cam was cheating on you

603
00:32:44,752 --> 00:32:49,632
Speaker 1: would end up being your next relationship, like because like

604
00:32:49,712 --> 00:32:52,951
Speaker 1: Dean helped, like allowed you to use his Facebook to

605
00:32:53,232 --> 00:32:55,392
Speaker 1: find out what Cam was up to. And then like

606
00:32:56,152 --> 00:32:58,792
Speaker 1: what was that connection like with Dean? And then how

607
00:32:58,832 --> 00:33:01,431
Speaker 1: do you move on from coming from a situation that

608
00:33:01,512 --> 00:33:06,072
Speaker 1: is that violent and destructive into like allowing and trusting

609
00:33:06,112 --> 00:33:08,191
Speaker 1: somebody else back into your world?

610
00:33:08,232 --> 00:33:09,551
Speaker 2: How do you navigate that?

611
00:33:09,872 --> 00:33:13,152
Speaker 1: And were you aware of Dean being involved in criminal

612
00:33:13,192 --> 00:33:15,511
Speaker 1: activity as well? Like did you see similarities between him

613
00:33:15,512 --> 00:33:15,792
Speaker 1: and Cam?

614
00:33:15,832 --> 00:33:19,112
Speaker 4: At the time, I knew that Dean was in that

615
00:33:19,192 --> 00:33:22,792
Speaker 4: world to an extent, and that was part of the appeal.

616
00:33:23,112 --> 00:33:26,072
Speaker 4: I wanted him to protect me because I knew that

617
00:33:26,112 --> 00:33:28,511
Speaker 4: the police could not, so I had to find a

618
00:33:28,552 --> 00:33:32,152
Speaker 4: way to protect myself. So that was through having a

619
00:33:32,192 --> 00:33:36,032
Speaker 4: relationship with Dean. So our relationship initially, although yes we

620
00:33:36,072 --> 00:33:37,032
Speaker 4: were really good friends.

621
00:33:36,832 --> 00:33:39,152
Speaker 3: And we got along really, really well, there was.

622
00:33:39,112 --> 00:33:42,791
Speaker 4: A massive element there of me needing to ensure that

623
00:33:42,911 --> 00:33:47,592
Speaker 4: I was protected and I was safe because when the

624
00:33:47,671 --> 00:33:53,232
Speaker 4: police approached me after certain things had happened, they said,

625
00:33:53,272 --> 00:33:56,352
Speaker 4: we can't help you unless you tell us where said

626
00:33:56,392 --> 00:34:00,271
Speaker 4: club keeps their weapons, and I said, domestic violence and

627
00:34:00,312 --> 00:34:03,872
Speaker 4: club issues are completely two different subjects. Let's not get

628
00:34:03,911 --> 00:34:08,352
Speaker 4: those mixed out boys. So, you know, hearing that, I

629
00:34:08,392 --> 00:34:10,792
Speaker 4: was just like, I really don't have a hope in

630
00:34:10,911 --> 00:34:14,951
Speaker 4: hell of relying on the authorities to protect me or

631
00:34:14,951 --> 00:34:18,712
Speaker 4: look after me in any way. And they at the time,

632
00:34:18,911 --> 00:34:20,991
Speaker 4: I don't feel and I don't know about now, but

633
00:34:21,031 --> 00:34:22,392
Speaker 4: maybe it's still the way it is now.

634
00:34:22,632 --> 00:34:25,472
Speaker 3: Gang Squoad doesn't see you really as a human.

635
00:34:26,072 --> 00:34:28,992
Speaker 4: If you're the partner of somebody that's involved in organized crime,

636
00:34:29,272 --> 00:34:32,431
Speaker 4: they see you as subhuman. Basically, they see you as

637
00:34:32,431 --> 00:34:35,672
Speaker 4: a biking mole, right, You don't matter if something happens

638
00:34:35,672 --> 00:34:38,192
Speaker 4: to you. It's just God taking out the trash, you know.

639
00:34:38,792 --> 00:34:41,471
Speaker 4: So I wasn't really surprised by what they had said

640
00:34:41,471 --> 00:34:44,192
Speaker 4: to me, but I was deeply disappointed that.

641
00:34:43,951 --> 00:34:45,031
Speaker 3: That was their response.

642
00:34:45,152 --> 00:34:48,031
Speaker 4: So, you know, I knew from that point onwards that

643
00:34:48,112 --> 00:34:50,872
Speaker 4: I had to just look after myself like I always

644
00:34:50,911 --> 00:34:53,392
Speaker 4: have had to look after myself and just do what

645
00:34:53,511 --> 00:34:56,832
Speaker 4: needed to be done, I guess, but entering into a

646
00:34:56,832 --> 00:35:01,711
Speaker 4: relationship with Dean very very difficult, very very difficult to trust. Again,

647
00:35:02,031 --> 00:35:04,152
Speaker 4: I had a lot of walls up, I had zero

648
00:35:04,232 --> 00:35:08,911
Speaker 4: tolerance for any kind of bullshit, and I was quite

649
00:35:09,312 --> 00:35:13,551
Speaker 4: fearful of going into a relationship because I'd experienced so

650
00:35:13,752 --> 00:35:16,471
Speaker 4: much hurt and so much pain that I just felt

651
00:35:16,551 --> 00:35:19,672
Speaker 4: like I did not have the capacity to endure any

652
00:35:19,712 --> 00:35:22,191
Speaker 4: more heartache. Little did I know there was a whole

653
00:35:22,232 --> 00:35:26,352
Speaker 4: host of fucking heartache to come, poor naive little meat

654
00:35:26,352 --> 00:35:26,751
Speaker 4: back then.

655
00:35:26,991 --> 00:35:29,392
Speaker 1: I love how you're laughing about this, like it's not

656
00:35:29,431 --> 00:35:31,511
Speaker 1: one of the most traumatic things I've ever heard, But

657
00:35:31,551 --> 00:35:32,312
Speaker 1: we will get to that.

658
00:35:34,551 --> 00:35:36,712
Speaker 2: Well, tell me about life with Dean to start with.

659
00:35:36,592 --> 00:35:39,551
Speaker 1: Because he's got property up at Harvey Bay. So you

660
00:35:39,632 --> 00:35:42,951
Speaker 1: move from New South Wales to Queensland and it's a

661
00:35:42,951 --> 00:35:47,672
Speaker 1: bit of a different lifestyle from the busy cross nightclubs

662
00:35:47,672 --> 00:35:48,712
Speaker 1: that you had been used to.

663
00:35:50,272 --> 00:35:52,071
Speaker 2: So what was life like with Dean? To start with?

664
00:35:52,352 --> 00:35:54,111
Speaker 4: I didn't like living on a farm. I felt it

665
00:35:54,152 --> 00:35:56,792
Speaker 4: was really quite boring. No offense to anyone that lives

666
00:35:56,832 --> 00:35:59,352
Speaker 4: on a farm. Probably now I think it was great.

667
00:36:00,672 --> 00:36:03,431
Speaker 4: Back then, I literally ate my way through every restaurant

668
00:36:03,471 --> 00:36:05,792
Speaker 4: on the main street within a week, and there was

669
00:36:05,832 --> 00:36:08,792
Speaker 4: then there was an nothing else to do, so I

670
00:36:08,832 --> 00:36:10,792
Speaker 4: didn't really love that aspect of it. But I had

671
00:36:10,991 --> 00:36:13,872
Speaker 4: the freedom and the capabilities to travel back to Sydney.

672
00:36:14,192 --> 00:36:15,951
Speaker 4: I think I used to go maybe once every two

673
00:36:15,991 --> 00:36:18,312
Speaker 4: weeks to see my family and to see my girlfriends.

674
00:36:18,352 --> 00:36:21,312
Speaker 4: Because I had no friends up there. It was just me,

675
00:36:21,511 --> 00:36:25,431
Speaker 4: him and the farm. So yeah, the farm life was

676
00:36:25,511 --> 00:36:29,071
Speaker 4: not for me. But we had a nice, peaceful existence.

677
00:36:29,792 --> 00:36:34,111
Speaker 4: But we also had a really chaotic existence. It's like

678
00:36:34,792 --> 00:36:38,392
Speaker 4: two polar opposites existing at the same time in that situation,

679
00:36:38,872 --> 00:36:40,991
Speaker 4: so there was all this chaos and drama going on.

680
00:36:41,792 --> 00:36:45,512
Speaker 4: But then we were living on this trankuil peaceful farm

681
00:36:45,991 --> 00:36:49,272
Speaker 4: and we didn't have any problems between ourselves either our

682
00:36:49,312 --> 00:36:51,752
Speaker 4: relationship was really cruisy and just lovely.

683
00:36:52,471 --> 00:36:57,312
Speaker 1: So Dean's business, he has a legitimate business as well

684
00:36:57,352 --> 00:37:01,591
Speaker 1: as dealing in drugs on the side, and so are

685
00:37:01,632 --> 00:37:06,272
Speaker 1: you involved in any of those businesses, because when you

686
00:37:06,431 --> 00:37:09,191
Speaker 1: were before the court they did discuss the fact that

687
00:37:09,232 --> 00:37:13,392
Speaker 1: you were cleaning scales or testing scales it would be

688
00:37:13,471 --> 00:37:14,232
Speaker 1: used to.

689
00:37:14,072 --> 00:37:15,072
Speaker 2: Measure out drugs.

690
00:37:15,272 --> 00:37:19,191
Speaker 1: Beyond that, were you involved in any of Dean's other

691
00:37:19,352 --> 00:37:21,511
Speaker 1: illicit business in Queensland.

692
00:37:22,192 --> 00:37:26,752
Speaker 4: If you are part of any if you're part of

693
00:37:26,792 --> 00:37:30,432
Speaker 4: any part of the operation, whether that's weighing scales, sealing

694
00:37:30,431 --> 00:37:33,911
Speaker 4: a bag, whatever it might be, the law stipulates that

695
00:37:33,991 --> 00:37:36,911
Speaker 4: you may or may not be liable to the same

696
00:37:36,991 --> 00:37:39,832
Speaker 4: charges as the principle, and that's open to it open

697
00:37:39,872 --> 00:37:44,911
Speaker 4: to interpretation. So with me, the police decided to go

698
00:37:44,951 --> 00:37:47,631
Speaker 4: in the direction of that you may be liable for

699
00:37:47,712 --> 00:37:50,711
Speaker 4: the same charges as the principle. Now, I didn't think

700
00:37:50,752 --> 00:37:54,951
Speaker 4: anything of it when I weighed the nativeia on the scales,

701
00:37:54,991 --> 00:37:58,392
Speaker 4: I really just did it and I just did not

702
00:37:58,551 --> 00:38:01,632
Speaker 4: think anything of it. Maybe by that point in time

703
00:38:03,192 --> 00:38:07,872
Speaker 4: the situation was somehow so normalized in my mind because

704
00:38:07,872 --> 00:38:10,952
Speaker 4: of the life that i'd had previously with Cam because

705
00:38:10,991 --> 00:38:13,392
Speaker 4: crime was quite normalized in my family to an extent

706
00:38:13,431 --> 00:38:16,111
Speaker 4: growing up as well. And then I didn't see I

707
00:38:16,152 --> 00:38:21,352
Speaker 4: really didn't see the seriousness of it, and I wasn't involved.

708
00:38:21,431 --> 00:38:24,672
Speaker 4: I was just the girlfriend, and I think the police

709
00:38:24,752 --> 00:38:28,031
Speaker 4: just liked to frame it that I was involved.

710
00:38:28,511 --> 00:38:35,632
Speaker 5: So yeah, Next, Felicia tells us what she recalls of

711
00:38:35,712 --> 00:38:39,631
Speaker 5: the night the police raided her home, leaving her severely

712
00:38:39,672 --> 00:38:41,431
Speaker 5: injured with the degree burns.

713
00:38:41,592 --> 00:38:47,352
Speaker 2: Stay with us. Let's go to that night.

714
00:38:48,152 --> 00:38:52,792
Speaker 1: You're asleep next to your now fiance Dean when something

715
00:38:52,872 --> 00:38:58,471
Speaker 1: smashes in through the window and it explodes. Talk to

716
00:38:58,511 --> 00:39:00,431
Speaker 1: me about the night of the raid. What do you

717
00:39:00,551 --> 00:39:03,792
Speaker 1: recall as opposed to what we now know actually happened

718
00:39:03,792 --> 00:39:04,392
Speaker 1: in that moment.

719
00:39:04,511 --> 00:39:07,591
Speaker 4: Yeah, so at the time, I really didn't think in

720
00:39:07,632 --> 00:39:10,752
Speaker 4: a million years it was the police, only because I

721
00:39:10,792 --> 00:39:13,991
Speaker 4: felt if the police were going to come, they would

722
00:39:13,991 --> 00:39:17,631
Speaker 4: come and they would present a warrant like they always had.

723
00:39:17,672 --> 00:39:19,991
Speaker 4: It wasn't you know, because.

724
00:39:19,752 --> 00:39:22,431
Speaker 2: You'd experienced raids while living with Cam, right, Yeah.

725
00:39:22,471 --> 00:39:25,431
Speaker 4: I'd been through quite a few raids previously, so I

726
00:39:25,632 --> 00:39:29,072
Speaker 4: just had a preconceived notion of if we did get raided.

727
00:39:29,112 --> 00:39:30,911
Speaker 3: This is what it would look like a boy. Was

728
00:39:30,911 --> 00:39:31,392
Speaker 3: I wrong?

729
00:39:31,872 --> 00:39:35,912
Speaker 4: But anyway, I woke up and I could just feel

730
00:39:35,911 --> 00:39:39,312
Speaker 4: my face and my hand was just on fire, and

731
00:39:39,352 --> 00:39:42,272
Speaker 4: I actually thought that I had been shot in the face.

732
00:39:42,312 --> 00:39:44,312
Speaker 4: I thought it was home invasion. And I'm laying there

733
00:39:44,312 --> 00:39:46,752
Speaker 4: and I'm thinking, fuck, I've been shot in the face.

734
00:39:47,031 --> 00:39:47,872
Speaker 3: But I'm still alive.

735
00:39:47,911 --> 00:39:49,071
Speaker 4: So I'm just gonna lay here for a bit and

736
00:39:49,112 --> 00:39:51,951
Speaker 4: pretend to be dead and just see what happens. And

737
00:39:52,352 --> 00:39:55,352
Speaker 4: I thought, shit, whoever's done this home invasion, I'll give

738
00:39:55,352 --> 00:39:57,071
Speaker 4: it to him. They've got balls. Like I was kind

739
00:39:57,072 --> 00:39:59,031
Speaker 4: of impressed a little bit. I thought, fuck, you got

740
00:39:59,031 --> 00:40:01,392
Speaker 4: some balls. But anyway, I'm laying there and I think

741
00:40:01,392 --> 00:40:02,632
Speaker 4: I've been shot in the face.

742
00:40:02,392 --> 00:40:05,032
Speaker 3: And then I hear police and I was shocked.

743
00:40:05,072 --> 00:40:09,232
Speaker 4: I thought, oh fuck, maybe even I felt it was

744
00:40:09,272 --> 00:40:11,152
Speaker 4: worse that it was the police and there was a

745
00:40:11,192 --> 00:40:11,752
Speaker 4: home vision.

746
00:40:11,752 --> 00:40:13,471
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I have was seeking Fuck, you know,

747
00:40:13,511 --> 00:40:14,872
Speaker 3: we've been pinched. It's all over.

748
00:40:15,672 --> 00:40:19,471
Speaker 4: And then yeah, the rest just kind of what unfolds

749
00:40:19,511 --> 00:40:19,991
Speaker 4: after that.

750
00:40:20,911 --> 00:40:24,271
Speaker 1: So we now know that they threw stun grenades into

751
00:40:24,312 --> 00:40:27,432
Speaker 1: your bedroom where you were sleeping. One exploded on your face,

752
00:40:27,951 --> 00:40:31,232
Speaker 1: another took out as you were crawling across the floor,

753
00:40:31,471 --> 00:40:33,832
Speaker 1: hit you in the elbow, in your hand, and so

754
00:40:33,991 --> 00:40:37,951
Speaker 1: you are quite seriously injured at this stage, but you

755
00:40:37,991 --> 00:40:42,392
Speaker 1: are conscious, which is amazing, I think, considering the injuries

756
00:40:42,392 --> 00:40:45,471
Speaker 1: that you'd sustained. Police come in, they hold a gun

757
00:40:45,471 --> 00:40:49,951
Speaker 1: to your head, and then what happens, like do they

758
00:40:49,951 --> 00:40:53,072
Speaker 1: get you medical attention? Like what happens in the immediate

759
00:40:53,112 --> 00:40:53,872
Speaker 1: aftermath of that?

760
00:40:54,232 --> 00:40:58,232
Speaker 4: So I started crawling towards the walk in robe to

761
00:40:58,312 --> 00:41:00,591
Speaker 4: get some kind of shelter because I didn't in a

762
00:41:00,632 --> 00:41:03,192
Speaker 4: million years think that they were throwing grenades.

763
00:41:03,232 --> 00:41:05,071
Speaker 3: I had no idea what was actually going on.

764
00:41:05,152 --> 00:41:08,352
Speaker 4: I was very disoriented because there's smoke and there's also

765
00:41:08,392 --> 00:41:10,951
Speaker 4: a sound that is emitted that disorientates you.

766
00:41:11,832 --> 00:41:14,392
Speaker 1: And is it like what we see in movies where

767
00:41:14,392 --> 00:41:16,711
Speaker 1: like you're hearing is ringing and you can't really hear

768
00:41:16,752 --> 00:41:20,712
Speaker 1: what's happening there? Voice is a muffled yeah, yeah, exactly

769
00:41:20,872 --> 00:41:22,072
Speaker 1: like that, Yeah, okay.

770
00:41:22,392 --> 00:41:25,072
Speaker 4: And the first grenade that they threw through the window

771
00:41:25,192 --> 00:41:29,312
Speaker 4: was actually a military grade deftech grenade and the ones

772
00:41:29,312 --> 00:41:31,792
Speaker 4: that came after are flashbang. So the initial one, the

773
00:41:31,832 --> 00:41:33,511
Speaker 4: one that where I thought i'd been shot in the

774
00:41:33,551 --> 00:41:38,392
Speaker 4: face was a grenade that was actually used in the

775
00:41:38,431 --> 00:41:42,752
Speaker 4: man Monas siege, the Lint Siege. Ah, yes, and it

776
00:41:42,792 --> 00:41:46,111
Speaker 4: hadn't been used since then until it was used on me,

777
00:41:46,232 --> 00:41:51,392
Speaker 4: which I felt was quite ridiculous. Anyway, So I'm crawling

778
00:41:51,431 --> 00:41:53,671
Speaker 4: to get into the walking robe to get some kind

779
00:41:53,712 --> 00:41:56,232
Speaker 4: of shelter, and on my way into the walking robe,

780
00:41:56,272 --> 00:41:59,992
Speaker 4: that's when a tactical officer steps through the bay window

781
00:42:00,911 --> 00:42:03,312
Speaker 4: and puts the gun to my head and he's demanding

782
00:42:03,352 --> 00:42:06,112
Speaker 4: to see my hand. Both hands need to be a

783
00:42:06,152 --> 00:42:08,991
Speaker 4: bit my head, but because my elbow was blown out

784
00:42:09,031 --> 00:42:11,991
Speaker 4: and my hand was completely minced me, it was very,

785
00:42:12,072 --> 00:42:14,752
Speaker 4: very difficult for me to actually show him my hands.

786
00:42:15,312 --> 00:42:18,272
Speaker 4: And he kept screaming at me and with this gun,

787
00:42:18,352 --> 00:42:21,591
Speaker 4: and I just thought, fucking calm down, like I don't

788
00:42:21,632 --> 00:42:24,192
Speaker 4: know what they thought by doing that. I don't know

789
00:42:24,232 --> 00:42:28,152
Speaker 4: whether they thought I was gonna pull out an ak

790
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:31,511
Speaker 4: from under my pillar and start shooting, or there was

791
00:42:31,632 --> 00:42:34,312
Speaker 4: just I felt, I'm not the gijane of the fucking

792
00:42:34,392 --> 00:42:35,791
Speaker 4: drug world thought.

793
00:42:36,632 --> 00:42:38,232
Speaker 3: I thought there was really no need for this.

794
00:42:38,272 --> 00:42:40,152
Speaker 4: If you'd knocked on the door and presented us with

795
00:42:40,192 --> 00:42:43,031
Speaker 4: a warrant, we would have complied. So there was just

796
00:42:43,072 --> 00:42:46,471
Speaker 4: really no need for that excessive use of force. But yes,

797
00:42:46,551 --> 00:42:49,392
Speaker 4: I was very badly injured. I was not given any

798
00:42:49,471 --> 00:42:54,472
Speaker 4: burns first aid. They asked us to unlock our phones.

799
00:42:54,511 --> 00:42:56,471
Speaker 4: If we didn't unlock our phones, they were not going

800
00:42:56,511 --> 00:42:59,752
Speaker 4: to call the ambulance. We didn't unlock the phones. More

801
00:42:59,792 --> 00:43:03,672
Speaker 4: than forty minutes went by. I was in immense pain.

802
00:43:04,232 --> 00:43:08,151
Speaker 4: Finally they decided to call the ambulance. When the ambulance come,

803
00:43:08,592 --> 00:43:10,992
Speaker 4: they were quite pissed off at the cops. They said,

804
00:43:10,991 --> 00:43:14,551
Speaker 4: why didn't you call us earlier? Because she's going to

805
00:43:14,592 --> 00:43:18,792
Speaker 4: go into shock and she might lose her hand. So

806
00:43:19,832 --> 00:43:23,392
Speaker 4: the ambulance officers they were not happy. And also too,

807
00:43:23,392 --> 00:43:26,272
Speaker 4: if you're going to use weapons such as that, you

808
00:43:26,312 --> 00:43:28,152
Speaker 4: think you would have had a And if you're so

809
00:43:28,232 --> 00:43:30,111
Speaker 4: worried about the safety of your offices that you have

810
00:43:30,192 --> 00:43:32,352
Speaker 4: to use those weapons, would you not have had a

811
00:43:32,392 --> 00:43:35,951
Speaker 4: fire brigade and an ambulance on standby. It just was

812
00:43:36,072 --> 00:43:41,431
Speaker 4: all a big, fucking balls up ridiculous situation. And when

813
00:43:41,471 --> 00:43:44,152
Speaker 4: I was willed out to the ambulance, I could see

814
00:43:44,192 --> 00:43:47,672
Speaker 4: that there was military tanks in my front yard and

815
00:43:47,712 --> 00:43:51,792
Speaker 4: on my property, and there was diggers digging up the ground,

816
00:43:52,232 --> 00:43:55,431
Speaker 4: and I was just like, well, this morning gets more

817
00:43:55,471 --> 00:43:56,872
Speaker 4: and more bizarre.

818
00:43:56,832 --> 00:44:00,072
Speaker 3: You know, So, yeah, that's basically what happened that morning.

819
00:44:01,072 --> 00:44:05,552
Speaker 1: You, on reflection, think that you probably would have avoided

820
00:44:05,632 --> 00:44:09,352
Speaker 1: charges had you not been so seriously injured in that moment.

821
00:44:09,392 --> 00:44:11,192
Speaker 2: Can you talk us through why you feel that way.

822
00:44:11,832 --> 00:44:16,392
Speaker 4: I feel that way because if you change somebody that

823
00:44:16,672 --> 00:44:20,272
Speaker 4: is just a civilian or the girlfriend of or whatever

824
00:44:20,312 --> 00:44:25,632
Speaker 4: it might be, it looks really really bad.

825
00:44:26,112 --> 00:44:28,111
Speaker 3: It still looked bad, but it looks really really bad.

826
00:44:28,431 --> 00:44:32,511
Speaker 4: But if you injure a drug dealer, social perception is

827
00:44:32,632 --> 00:44:36,272
Speaker 4: fuck them. They deserved it. And when I was in hospital,

828
00:44:36,911 --> 00:44:38,992
Speaker 4: actually got a lot of death threats, to the point

829
00:44:39,031 --> 00:44:41,271
Speaker 4: where they had to change my name to an ex

830
00:44:41,312 --> 00:44:44,591
Speaker 4: in the system because people were calling up and threatening me.

831
00:44:45,031 --> 00:44:46,231
Speaker 3: I really didn't care at the time.

832
00:44:46,511 --> 00:44:49,272
Speaker 4: It was not that much medication, so oh whatever, you

833
00:44:49,352 --> 00:44:53,551
Speaker 4: had other problem that way worse problems. The people would

834
00:44:53,592 --> 00:44:56,031
Speaker 4: call up, but they would say stuff like, I hope

835
00:44:56,072 --> 00:44:59,152
Speaker 4: she fucking dies. You shouldn't be treating her. She's a

836
00:44:59,192 --> 00:45:03,471
Speaker 4: fucking drug dealer, she's killing our children, and this all

837
00:45:03,471 --> 00:45:06,992
Speaker 4: this shit. I just thought, you bunch of fucking losers

838
00:45:07,031 --> 00:45:10,591
Speaker 4: who know nothing about life and nothing about society and

839
00:45:10,632 --> 00:45:16,152
Speaker 4: who are very narrow minded. So yeah, that was a

840
00:45:16,152 --> 00:45:19,511
Speaker 4: pretty hectic experience. That was when when I started to

841
00:45:20,232 --> 00:45:22,752
Speaker 4: be put in the media, like the front page of

842
00:45:22,792 --> 00:45:25,512
Speaker 4: the newspaper that said, cops blew up my face.

843
00:45:26,072 --> 00:45:28,032
Speaker 3: That's when the death threats kind of started.

844
00:45:28,392 --> 00:45:30,232
Speaker 1: When did you realize that you've been set up?

845
00:45:31,232 --> 00:45:34,991
Speaker 3: Oh? I always had a bit of an inkling, but.

846
00:45:37,312 --> 00:45:39,392
Speaker 4: You know, you don't want to make those kind of

847
00:45:39,431 --> 00:45:42,911
Speaker 4: allegations without some sort of truth. And I think to

848
00:45:42,991 --> 00:45:48,471
Speaker 4: get arrested or to get pinched is one thing, and

849
00:45:48,712 --> 00:45:51,392
Speaker 4: that's fine. It's the consequences of your actions and you

850
00:45:51,431 --> 00:45:53,832
Speaker 4: need to copy it on the chin. But when it's

851
00:45:53,872 --> 00:45:57,591
Speaker 4: as a result of somebody that you love and that's

852
00:45:57,632 --> 00:46:00,991
Speaker 4: close to you, that is the worst kind of betrayal.

853
00:46:01,792 --> 00:46:05,312
Speaker 4: It feels worse than Look if anyone's ever been cheated on,

854
00:46:05,672 --> 00:46:07,631
Speaker 4: like if you are a woman or even as a man,

855
00:46:07,712 --> 00:46:12,551
Speaker 4: have ever been cheated on, it's that on steroids. You think,

856
00:46:12,592 --> 00:46:16,032
Speaker 4: how the fuck can somebody that's been through similar things

857
00:46:16,072 --> 00:46:19,832
Speaker 4: to me and come from where I've come from do

858
00:46:19,951 --> 00:46:23,392
Speaker 4: this do this to me? You know, you just it's

859
00:46:23,431 --> 00:46:26,872
Speaker 4: almost like you cannot believe it, and it fucking hurts.

860
00:46:26,991 --> 00:46:28,951
Speaker 3: It's horrible because.

861
00:46:28,712 --> 00:46:30,911
Speaker 1: You do suspect that it was quite a close friend

862
00:46:30,951 --> 00:46:35,312
Speaker 1: of yours and Deans who tipped police off, and there's

863
00:46:35,352 --> 00:46:38,272
Speaker 1: a you know, some trail of evidence that points that out.

864
00:46:38,272 --> 00:46:42,031
Speaker 1: But didn't one of them come and visit you in

865
00:46:42,112 --> 00:46:44,872
Speaker 1: hospital even in the aftermath of that? And in the

866
00:46:44,872 --> 00:46:47,951
Speaker 1: book you do explain that you whilst they did betray you,

867
00:46:47,991 --> 00:46:50,392
Speaker 1: they would never have hoped for you to be hurt.

868
00:46:50,551 --> 00:46:52,112
Speaker 3: Well, that's what I like to believe.

869
00:46:53,192 --> 00:46:56,832
Speaker 4: And I also think too that if you do get

870
00:46:56,911 --> 00:47:00,911
Speaker 4: charged with something, you need to copy it on the chin.

871
00:47:01,072 --> 00:47:03,152
Speaker 4: Like I said before, it's not a game of monopoly.

872
00:47:03,232 --> 00:47:05,631
Speaker 4: You know what the consequences might be That you might

873
00:47:05,632 --> 00:47:07,951
Speaker 4: get charged and you might go to jail. So if

874
00:47:07,991 --> 00:47:10,592
Speaker 4: that happens, you'll get out of jail free. Card should

875
00:47:10,632 --> 00:47:14,592
Speaker 4: never be putting someone else under the bus. That's weak

876
00:47:14,911 --> 00:47:17,151
Speaker 4: and that's wrong and you just shouldn't do that shit.

877
00:47:17,352 --> 00:47:21,592
Speaker 4: I'm just really shrikes a nerve with me, and shrikes

878
00:47:21,592 --> 00:47:22,192
Speaker 4: a nerve with me.

879
00:47:22,392 --> 00:47:24,272
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it goes against that I am

880
00:47:24,312 --> 00:47:27,552
Speaker 1: my brother's keeper that had attracted you to the bikey clubs,

881
00:47:27,592 --> 00:47:31,792
Speaker 1: that there should be a sense of loyalty even amongst criminals.

882
00:47:31,872 --> 00:47:35,072
Speaker 4: Yes, one hundred and ten percent. And also pick aside.

883
00:47:35,112 --> 00:47:37,511
Speaker 4: Don't sit on the fence. You're either a cop or

884
00:47:37,511 --> 00:47:40,551
Speaker 4: you're a criminal. You can't be both. It's just the

885
00:47:40,592 --> 00:47:42,951
Speaker 4: same as a dirty cop. No one likes a dirty cop.

886
00:47:42,991 --> 00:47:44,912
Speaker 4: No one likes a criminal that sits on the fence.

887
00:47:45,352 --> 00:47:49,992
Speaker 4: You know, pick aside, and don't don't be so wishy.

888
00:47:50,072 --> 00:47:53,872
Speaker 4: Was you have a fucking backbone, you know, don't just

889
00:47:53,991 --> 00:47:55,352
Speaker 4: pick a side when it suits you.

890
00:47:56,031 --> 00:47:58,471
Speaker 2: What was recovery like for you with all those injuries.

891
00:47:58,712 --> 00:48:00,951
Speaker 1: It must have taken years for you to get back

892
00:48:00,991 --> 00:48:02,392
Speaker 1: to any kind of normal.

893
00:48:02,592 --> 00:48:03,832
Speaker 3: Absolutely horrific.

894
00:48:04,872 --> 00:48:08,111
Speaker 4: I really felt a very big and deep sense of

895
00:48:08,232 --> 00:48:11,392
Speaker 4: loss like I've never felt before, for the loss of

896
00:48:11,431 --> 00:48:12,952
Speaker 4: the person that I was prior.

897
00:48:13,352 --> 00:48:15,792
Speaker 3: So there was a big identity shift. I'm still me,

898
00:48:16,511 --> 00:48:17,352
Speaker 3: of course.

899
00:48:17,152 --> 00:48:19,991
Speaker 4: I'll always be me, but there was a really really

900
00:48:19,991 --> 00:48:22,272
Speaker 4: big sense of loss that no matter what I do,

901
00:48:22,392 --> 00:48:25,111
Speaker 4: I cannot get back the person I was prior to

902
00:48:25,152 --> 00:48:28,832
Speaker 4: that trauma. And that was really hard for me. I

903
00:48:28,872 --> 00:48:31,431
Speaker 4: even remember I used to look at my hand when

904
00:48:31,431 --> 00:48:33,552
Speaker 4: I was going through all the operations on my hand,

905
00:48:34,551 --> 00:48:38,591
Speaker 4: and you know, I still don't have complete feeling in

906
00:48:38,632 --> 00:48:38,951
Speaker 4: my hand.

907
00:48:38,951 --> 00:48:40,112
Speaker 3: I've got a lot of nerve damage.

908
00:48:40,112 --> 00:48:41,631
Speaker 4: There's a lot of things that I talk about in

909
00:48:41,672 --> 00:48:46,032
Speaker 4: the book in regards to my injuries. So I remember

910
00:48:46,072 --> 00:48:48,632
Speaker 4: looking at my hand and feeling like it didn't belong

911
00:48:48,672 --> 00:48:51,031
Speaker 4: to me, like it didn't belong on my body. But

912
00:48:51,072 --> 00:48:53,551
Speaker 4: there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. But

913
00:48:53,832 --> 00:48:56,312
Speaker 4: I felt like it was this foreign entity on the

914
00:48:56,431 --> 00:48:59,832
Speaker 4: end of my arm, and I just I couldn't reconcile

915
00:48:59,911 --> 00:49:02,232
Speaker 4: that it belonged to me. It was so bizarre. I

916
00:49:02,232 --> 00:49:04,352
Speaker 4: don't know whether other people have had that experience when

917
00:49:04,352 --> 00:49:07,471
Speaker 4: they've been injured or burnt or whatever be, but that

918
00:49:07,632 --> 00:49:11,192
Speaker 4: was really really difficult for me as well. And I

919
00:49:11,312 --> 00:49:15,471
Speaker 4: worked really really hard to get better mentally and physically

920
00:49:16,352 --> 00:49:19,031
Speaker 4: because I felt like I had to.

921
00:49:19,312 --> 00:49:20,911
Speaker 3: And there was a bit of spite in that.

922
00:49:21,511 --> 00:49:23,511
Speaker 4: I felt like, I've got to get better, and I've

923
00:49:23,551 --> 00:49:25,151
Speaker 4: got to get back on my feet, and I need

924
00:49:25,192 --> 00:49:28,552
Speaker 4: to become the best possible person that I can, because

925
00:49:28,752 --> 00:49:32,951
Speaker 4: everyone's expecting me to just, you know, end up not

926
00:49:33,031 --> 00:49:35,511
Speaker 4: how I've ended up now, the opposite of how I've

927
00:49:35,592 --> 00:49:38,312
Speaker 4: ended up now. And to prove a point, especially to

928
00:49:38,392 --> 00:49:41,352
Speaker 4: the police as well. You know that you can't do

929
00:49:41,471 --> 00:49:45,191
Speaker 4: this to somebody, or allegedly do this to somebody, and

930
00:49:46,031 --> 00:49:48,551
Speaker 4: you know, it's just I had to prove a point. No,

931
00:49:48,752 --> 00:49:51,272
Speaker 4: I'm going to come back bigger and better, and that

932
00:49:51,511 --> 00:49:52,272
Speaker 4: is that fueled me.

933
00:49:52,312 --> 00:49:54,192
Speaker 3: That spite really really fueled me.

934
00:49:57,031 --> 00:50:00,792
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, whatever, the motivation, if it gets

935
00:50:00,832 --> 00:50:03,951
Speaker 1: you through something as traumatic as that and then come

936
00:50:03,991 --> 00:50:08,072
Speaker 1: out the other side, which is quite incredible story unto itself,

937
00:50:08,112 --> 00:50:10,352
Speaker 1: because you've kind of sat yourself down and gone, no,

938
00:50:10,551 --> 00:50:12,511
Speaker 1: I'm going to get my shit together now and I'm

939
00:50:12,872 --> 00:50:16,072
Speaker 1: not going to be involved in any criminal activity because

940
00:50:16,192 --> 00:50:17,872
Speaker 1: I guess at first we need to backstep a little

941
00:50:17,872 --> 00:50:22,872
Speaker 1: bit the trial and because Dean obviously a sentenced to

942
00:50:22,911 --> 00:50:27,431
Speaker 1: ten years. Yeah, do you do any jail time over

943
00:50:27,471 --> 00:50:31,951
Speaker 1: your touching of those scales and your role in Dean's business.

944
00:50:32,112 --> 00:50:32,312
Speaker 3: No.

945
00:50:32,752 --> 00:50:39,352
Speaker 4: Originally I was charged with trafficking production and supply, and

946
00:50:39,392 --> 00:50:43,032
Speaker 4: then towards you know, the date was it was getting

947
00:50:43,072 --> 00:50:49,352
Speaker 4: closer to go into court, the production and trafficking charges

948
00:50:49,392 --> 00:50:53,071
Speaker 4: were dropped, so then supply was remaining.

949
00:50:53,392 --> 00:50:54,511
Speaker 3: I didn't do any jail time.

950
00:50:54,632 --> 00:50:58,872
Speaker 4: I was given a three year sentence, but to be

951
00:50:58,911 --> 00:51:02,272
Speaker 4: served in the community, and I feel like the fact

952
00:51:02,272 --> 00:51:04,711
Speaker 4: that I was still undergoing procedures and I had been

953
00:51:04,712 --> 00:51:08,672
Speaker 4: so badly injured was leverage to my advantage and also

954
00:51:08,752 --> 00:51:12,712
Speaker 4: to I want to acknowledge my privilege, because if I

955
00:51:12,792 --> 00:51:16,031
Speaker 4: had been a woman of color, or I hadn't had

956
00:51:16,072 --> 00:51:19,792
Speaker 4: the legal representation that I had had, and if I

957
00:51:19,872 --> 00:51:24,232
Speaker 4: didn't have all the references and all of the educational

958
00:51:24,232 --> 00:51:26,152
Speaker 4: background and all of the things that I was able

959
00:51:26,752 --> 00:51:28,911
Speaker 4: to present in court, and I couldn't present the way

960
00:51:28,951 --> 00:51:32,031
Speaker 4: that I did, I probably would have still been put

961
00:51:32,072 --> 00:51:35,392
Speaker 4: in jail even though I had these injuries. So I

962
00:51:35,511 --> 00:51:37,872
Speaker 4: just want to acknowledge, you know, my privilege in that

963
00:51:38,352 --> 00:51:41,911
Speaker 4: situation that you are viewed differently dependent on how you

964
00:51:41,991 --> 00:51:44,911
Speaker 4: present the color of your skin and your looks. So

965
00:51:45,312 --> 00:51:48,991
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, it's just completely unfair the things that

966
00:51:49,031 --> 00:51:50,072
Speaker 4: go on in our courts.

967
00:51:50,192 --> 00:51:51,911
Speaker 3: But that's a whole other episode.

968
00:51:52,511 --> 00:51:54,071
Speaker 2: Yeah, it absolutely is.

969
00:51:54,832 --> 00:51:54,951
Speaker 3: So.

970
00:51:55,152 --> 00:51:57,632
Speaker 1: For you then, though, to head back out into the

971
00:51:57,672 --> 00:52:03,192
Speaker 1: world after your recovery, you study to be a social worker.

972
00:52:03,312 --> 00:52:04,752
Speaker 2: You've decided I'm going.

973
00:52:04,551 --> 00:52:07,151
Speaker 1: To be on the straight narrow because you can't put

974
00:52:07,192 --> 00:52:09,631
Speaker 1: a foot wrong now because you're serving a sentence out

975
00:52:09,632 --> 00:52:11,911
Speaker 1: in the community. Any wrong step and you are in

976
00:52:11,991 --> 00:52:16,111
Speaker 1: jail for sure, so how do you restart when you've

977
00:52:16,152 --> 00:52:19,711
Speaker 1: still got that hanging over your head? But also you're

978
00:52:19,752 --> 00:52:22,951
Speaker 1: trying to find a job and gain full employment. Like

979
00:52:23,392 --> 00:52:25,312
Speaker 1: we know what the stories are like for people who

980
00:52:25,352 --> 00:52:27,272
Speaker 1: come out of prison to try and start again, that

981
00:52:27,352 --> 00:52:28,032
Speaker 1: it is such.

982
00:52:27,832 --> 00:52:29,711
Speaker 2: A difficult process. What was it like for you?

983
00:52:30,551 --> 00:52:35,471
Speaker 4: It was terrible, It was honestly terrible. There is so

984
00:52:35,592 --> 00:52:39,832
Speaker 4: much discrimination that goes on. You are not valued for

985
00:52:39,911 --> 00:52:44,192
Speaker 4: the skills that you have gained post conviction.

986
00:52:45,152 --> 00:52:48,192
Speaker 3: You are seen as your worst mistake forever.

987
00:52:48,352 --> 00:52:51,071
Speaker 4: It seems in Australian society it's kind of like it's

988
00:52:51,072 --> 00:52:51,792
Speaker 4: a life sentence.

989
00:52:52,112 --> 00:52:52,832
Speaker 3: And I think that.

990
00:52:52,832 --> 00:52:57,271
Speaker 4: Women are disproportionately affected by this because we go into

991
00:52:57,272 --> 00:52:59,511
Speaker 4: more caring roles. So there's a lot of checks, and

992
00:52:59,551 --> 00:53:02,992
Speaker 4: I understand the reason behind the checks, but it needs

993
00:53:03,031 --> 00:53:06,872
Speaker 4: to be on a really individual basis. Checks need to

994
00:53:06,911 --> 00:53:10,352
Speaker 4: be on a really individual basis. So with men they

995
00:53:10,392 --> 00:53:12,312
Speaker 4: go into they can go into cashi's like a lot

996
00:53:12,312 --> 00:53:13,752
Speaker 4: of men that come out out.

997
00:53:13,592 --> 00:53:16,352
Speaker 3: Of those that don't know cash in hand jobs.

998
00:53:16,551 --> 00:53:18,551
Speaker 4: Men can come out of prison, they can go on

999
00:53:18,632 --> 00:53:20,312
Speaker 4: sent a link, so they're getting SENTI link and then

1000
00:53:20,312 --> 00:53:22,672
Speaker 4: they're also getting Cashi's and they've got plenty enough money

1001
00:53:22,672 --> 00:53:24,352
Speaker 4: to you know, get back on their feet.

1002
00:53:24,431 --> 00:53:25,671
Speaker 3: Not saying it's easy for men.

1003
00:53:25,792 --> 00:53:29,231
Speaker 4: I've seen firsthand how difficult it is to reintegrate through

1004
00:53:29,272 --> 00:53:31,792
Speaker 4: the experiences that Dean has been through since coming out

1005
00:53:31,792 --> 00:53:32,152
Speaker 4: of prison.

1006
00:53:32,511 --> 00:53:35,111
Speaker 3: That's also been really, really challenging. But I feel like

1007
00:53:35,192 --> 00:53:36,551
Speaker 3: women are really.

1008
00:53:36,272 --> 00:53:40,511
Speaker 4: Disproportionately impacted because we go into nursing, counseling, social work

1009
00:53:40,832 --> 00:53:43,272
Speaker 4: and there's so many stringent checks and all of the

1010
00:53:43,392 --> 00:53:46,511
Speaker 4: hiring practices in a lot of the companies, it's just

1011
00:53:46,632 --> 00:53:48,312
Speaker 4: a conviction history meant a big no.

1012
00:53:49,232 --> 00:53:51,632
Speaker 3: So I'd like to see that change.

1013
00:53:51,712 --> 00:53:54,071
Speaker 4: I know that in the field of lawn there's a

1014
00:53:54,072 --> 00:53:56,512
Speaker 4: lot of lived, experienced lawyers that are up and coming

1015
00:53:56,551 --> 00:53:59,431
Speaker 4: and they are being accepted into the bar. So if

1016
00:53:59,471 --> 00:54:03,392
Speaker 4: potentially health and more of the women, the women or

1017
00:54:03,392 --> 00:54:07,111
Speaker 4: women dominated industries could take on the way that the

1018
00:54:07,192 --> 00:54:10,192
Speaker 4: legal industry is handling things and use that as an example,

1019
00:54:10,471 --> 00:54:13,392
Speaker 4: that would be really really good. I had to lie,

1020
00:54:13,792 --> 00:54:16,912
Speaker 4: I had to change my name, I had to hide

1021
00:54:16,911 --> 00:54:20,991
Speaker 4: my past, even though I had done all the work

1022
00:54:21,031 --> 00:54:23,031
Speaker 4: that I needed to do to move forward, and all

1023
00:54:23,072 --> 00:54:25,712
Speaker 4: I wanted to do was be welcome back into the community.

1024
00:54:26,152 --> 00:54:27,511
Speaker 3: I wanted to give back.

1025
00:54:27,551 --> 00:54:30,632
Speaker 4: I wanted to work, and I wanted to pursue an education,

1026
00:54:31,152 --> 00:54:33,872
Speaker 4: and I wanted to have meaningful employment. I think that

1027
00:54:33,951 --> 00:54:36,152
Speaker 4: a lot of people have conviction histories are kind of

1028
00:54:36,272 --> 00:54:39,992
Speaker 4: robbed of meaningful employment, and they're expected to do menial jobs,

1029
00:54:40,031 --> 00:54:43,912
Speaker 4: even when they have skills that society so needs.

1030
00:54:44,471 --> 00:54:46,471
Speaker 3: So I'd like to see that change.

1031
00:54:46,511 --> 00:54:49,432
Speaker 4: You shouldn't have to lie and hide your past because

1032
00:54:49,471 --> 00:54:54,792
Speaker 4: you fear being judged or discriminated against. With me, I

1033
00:54:54,832 --> 00:54:56,792
Speaker 4: got found out a lot of the time, so I

1034
00:54:56,872 --> 00:54:59,231
Speaker 4: kind of just skated along, and then something would pop

1035
00:54:59,352 --> 00:55:00,032
Speaker 4: up in the media.

1036
00:55:00,152 --> 00:55:03,232
Speaker 3: The police would leak information to the newspaper.

1037
00:55:02,991 --> 00:55:05,471
Speaker 4: And someone would see it and I'd go, oh, I

1038
00:55:05,551 --> 00:55:08,151
Speaker 4: work with her, or I've seen her before, and they

1039
00:55:08,272 --> 00:55:09,991
Speaker 4: duped me in and then I'd get the sack and

1040
00:55:10,031 --> 00:55:11,152
Speaker 4: then it would all start.

1041
00:55:11,232 --> 00:55:13,152
Speaker 3: The cycle would start all over again.

1042
00:55:13,991 --> 00:55:16,431
Speaker 2: I want to get back to where that led you.

1043
00:55:16,471 --> 00:55:19,832
Speaker 1: But you did mention that you had seen firsthand what

1044
00:55:19,951 --> 00:55:22,832
Speaker 1: being in the prison system had done to Dean on

1045
00:55:23,031 --> 00:55:26,431
Speaker 1: his release, and this is something I think was quite

1046
00:55:26,471 --> 00:55:30,031
Speaker 1: an eye opening conversation in your book, is that you

1047
00:55:30,112 --> 00:55:33,872
Speaker 1: feel that people who go to prison are upholding their

1048
00:55:33,911 --> 00:55:36,192
Speaker 1: endo the bargain. They're giving up their freedom to do

1049
00:55:36,272 --> 00:55:41,232
Speaker 1: their time, but you feel the system is not upholding

1050
00:55:41,272 --> 00:55:44,272
Speaker 1: their end of the bargain because they are not rehabilitating people.

1051
00:55:44,352 --> 00:55:46,951
Speaker 1: And there's going to be this big discussion right now

1052
00:55:47,031 --> 00:55:50,792
Speaker 1: about prison shouldn't be fun, it shouldn't be a nice experience.

1053
00:55:50,872 --> 00:55:53,191
Speaker 1: The whole idea is that your liberties are removed from

1054
00:55:53,192 --> 00:55:54,631
Speaker 1: you in order for you to learn a lesson. And

1055
00:55:54,672 --> 00:55:58,832
Speaker 1: I understand that too, But you feel that Dean came

1056
00:55:58,872 --> 00:56:01,352
Speaker 1: out of prison worse than when he went in. And

1057
00:56:01,392 --> 00:56:02,832
Speaker 1: you can see that in a lot of those lost

1058
00:56:02,832 --> 00:56:05,712
Speaker 1: boys that you talk about, they end up returning to

1059
00:56:05,752 --> 00:56:08,151
Speaker 1: crime or they end up being even worse criminals on

1060
00:56:08,192 --> 00:56:12,232
Speaker 1: release from prison because of their prison experience. What was

1061
00:56:12,312 --> 00:56:14,272
Speaker 1: Dean like when he came out and how did you

1062
00:56:14,392 --> 00:56:18,752
Speaker 1: help him not just fall a part of the seams.

1063
00:56:18,911 --> 00:56:23,912
Speaker 4: Very institutionalized and had a lot of unprocessed grief because

1064
00:56:23,951 --> 00:56:27,031
Speaker 4: there had been a lot of death during his sentence,

1065
00:56:27,272 --> 00:56:29,991
Speaker 4: obviously because it was such a long sentence. There had

1066
00:56:30,031 --> 00:56:33,392
Speaker 4: been my father's death and he had to say goodbye

1067
00:56:33,471 --> 00:56:37,112
Speaker 4: to my father over the phone. He had his stepfather's

1068
00:56:37,152 --> 00:56:40,471
Speaker 4: death or stepfather who raised him and who he was

1069
00:56:40,592 --> 00:56:43,591
Speaker 4: very close with. He had to say goodbye to him

1070
00:56:43,632 --> 00:56:46,471
Speaker 4: over the phone. And then also there was the death

1071
00:56:46,511 --> 00:56:49,671
Speaker 4: of his younger brother whilst he was in prison. And

1072
00:56:50,551 --> 00:56:54,111
Speaker 4: when you're in prison, you cannot show emotion. If you

1073
00:56:54,112 --> 00:56:56,551
Speaker 4: show emotion, you'll be viewed as weak. If you're weak,

1074
00:56:56,632 --> 00:56:59,991
Speaker 4: then you'll be targeted. There's a whole dynamic that goes

1075
00:57:00,031 --> 00:57:02,832
Speaker 4: on there. And also too, if you've seen going off

1076
00:57:02,832 --> 00:57:06,712
Speaker 4: to the psychologists or the counselor people think oh, you know,

1077
00:57:07,352 --> 00:57:09,352
Speaker 4: they're weak, we can kind of pick on them. So

1078
00:57:10,192 --> 00:57:13,792
Speaker 4: everyone really shies away from that aspect of it as well.

1079
00:57:14,112 --> 00:57:16,552
Speaker 1: Plesea, I feel like I could talk to you for

1080
00:57:16,592 --> 00:57:20,072
Speaker 1: hours and hours about your life and your experiences, so

1081
00:57:21,112 --> 00:57:23,952
Speaker 1: it's so fascinating, but I think I'd like to end

1082
00:57:23,952 --> 00:57:24,352
Speaker 1: and just.

1083
00:57:24,432 --> 00:57:27,671
Speaker 2: Ask you, how do you view yourself now?

1084
00:57:27,712 --> 00:57:31,191
Speaker 1: After reflecting and writing all of your experiences down.

1085
00:57:31,592 --> 00:57:34,112
Speaker 4: I dedicated my book to myself, which my mother thought

1086
00:57:34,152 --> 00:57:36,231
Speaker 4: was pretty funny, and I had a laugh about that too,

1087
00:57:36,312 --> 00:57:39,192
Speaker 4: But it was because after it, I thought you were

1088
00:57:39,232 --> 00:57:40,312
Speaker 4: one tough motherfucker.

1089
00:57:40,392 --> 00:57:42,272
Speaker 3: You were resilient. Good on you.

1090
00:57:42,752 --> 00:57:45,712
Speaker 4: Like I really was able to come to a point

1091
00:57:45,712 --> 00:57:49,592
Speaker 4: in my life where I could be proud of myself

1092
00:57:49,672 --> 00:57:52,151
Speaker 4: and the things that I have achieved since coming out

1093
00:57:52,152 --> 00:57:53,191
Speaker 4: of that life.

1094
00:57:53,552 --> 00:57:54,992
Speaker 3: So that's probably the biggest.

1095
00:57:54,632 --> 00:57:57,592
Speaker 4: Thing that I learned through that as well, and that

1096
00:57:57,752 --> 00:58:01,512
Speaker 4: situations and people are complicated and complex. And also I

1097
00:58:01,552 --> 00:58:06,592
Speaker 4: want people through my story to understand that nobody just

1098
00:58:06,752 --> 00:58:10,312
Speaker 4: ends up in jail. Nobody just ends up in a

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00:58:10,352 --> 00:58:14,072
Speaker 4: domestic violence relationship, Nobody just ends up with charges where

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00:58:14,112 --> 00:58:16,672
Speaker 4: they might face twenty five years in jail. There's always

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00:58:16,712 --> 00:58:19,752
Speaker 4: a backstory and it's not an excuse, but it is

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00:58:19,792 --> 00:58:22,312
Speaker 4: a reason. And that's the core of being human is

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00:58:22,352 --> 00:58:24,872
Speaker 4: to understand each other. And when you can understand with

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00:58:25,112 --> 00:58:27,711
Speaker 4: another person, I connect with them, then you're more likely

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00:58:27,792 --> 00:58:30,552
Speaker 4: to give them a chance and welcome them back into

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00:58:30,592 --> 00:58:33,272
Speaker 4: the fold. So that's just the core of being human.

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Speaker 4: So I really hope that is what people can get

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00:58:35,992 --> 00:58:36,312
Speaker 4: from that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to Felicia for sharing her story with us.

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Speaker 1: You can find her book accessory at the link in.

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00:58:44,232 --> 00:58:44,992
Speaker 3: Our show notes.

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Speaker 1: True Chrome Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted by

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00:58:48,592 --> 00:58:51,792
Speaker 1: me Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio

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00:58:51,872 --> 00:58:53,072
Speaker 1: designed by Jacob Brown.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true chrime conversation