1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:29,222 Speaker 1: recorded on It's Saturday, July thirteenth, twenty twenty four in 4 00:00:29,302 --> 00:00:33,142 Speaker 1: Bethel Park, Pennsylvania, and Thomas Crooks has called in sick 5 00:00:33,142 --> 00:00:36,582 Speaker 1: to work. I have something to do, he tells his boss, 6 00:00:37,022 --> 00:00:40,942 Speaker 1: insisting he'll be back tomorrow. He drives to his local 7 00:00:41,022 --> 00:00:44,502 Speaker 1: shop and picks up some ammunition and a ladder before 8 00:00:44,542 --> 00:00:48,302 Speaker 1: packing his car with his dad's registered AR fifteen style rifle, 9 00:00:48,782 --> 00:00:53,222 Speaker 1: two radio controlled homemade bombs, a bulletproof vest, and three 10 00:00:53,542 --> 00:00:59,422 Speaker 1: fully loaded magazines. Thomas doesn't look like an assassin. The 11 00:00:59,542 --> 00:01:02,582 Speaker 1: averagely built twenty year old comes from a middle class 12 00:01:02,582 --> 00:01:06,222 Speaker 1: neighborhood and still lives with his parents, Mary and Matthew. 13 00:01:07,382 --> 00:01:13,862 Speaker 1: But today he has big plans. After driving an hour 14 00:01:13,982 --> 00:01:17,262 Speaker 1: north to the town of Butler, he disappears into a 15 00:01:17,302 --> 00:01:21,822 Speaker 1: crowd of red and white men, women and children are 16 00:01:21,862 --> 00:01:25,662 Speaker 1: excitedly waiting for a rally to start. They're carrying American 17 00:01:25,702 --> 00:01:30,462 Speaker 1: flags and hats that read make America Great Again. Thomas 18 00:01:30,582 --> 00:01:33,942 Speaker 1: is out of place and people notice, but they're not 19 00:01:34,142 --> 00:01:38,982 Speaker 1: alarmed enough to raise any major alarms. He isn't stopped 20 00:01:39,262 --> 00:01:42,742 Speaker 1: as he quietly climbs onto a nearby roof and raises 21 00:01:42,782 --> 00:01:48,262 Speaker 1: his dad's rifle. Tonight, He's going to try and assassinate 22 00:01:48,382 --> 00:01:52,182 Speaker 1: the former President of America, Donald Trump and change the 23 00:01:52,222 --> 00:02:04,102 Speaker 1: course of history forever. I'm Jemma bas and this is 24 00:02:04,142 --> 00:02:07,942 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations Amom of Me, a podcast exploring the 25 00:02:07,942 --> 00:02:11,622 Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who 26 00:02:11,662 --> 00:02:12,742 Speaker 1: know the most about them. 27 00:02:13,142 --> 00:02:14,222 Speaker 2: Take a look at what happened. 28 00:02:20,742 --> 00:02:24,662 Speaker 1: Thomas Crooks managed to send eight bullets flying in twenty 29 00:02:24,702 --> 00:02:28,142 Speaker 1: six seconds before he was shot dead by Secret Service agents. 30 00:02:28,622 --> 00:02:32,102 Speaker 1: He missed his target, Donald Trump, but managed to draw blood, 31 00:02:32,502 --> 00:02:36,342 Speaker 1: grazing the former president's right ear with a bullet. He 32 00:02:36,382 --> 00:02:39,942 Speaker 1: did kill someone, though, and injured two others, with the 33 00:02:39,982 --> 00:02:44,342 Speaker 1: assassination attack exploding across world media moments after it happened. 34 00:02:45,182 --> 00:02:49,822 Speaker 1: America has lost four presidents to assassinations. Four more have 35 00:02:49,982 --> 00:02:54,062 Speaker 1: escaped attempted hits. It's been forty three years since the 36 00:02:54,102 --> 00:02:57,662 Speaker 1: most recent attack. Ronald Reagan was seriously wounded by a 37 00:02:57,702 --> 00:03:00,782 Speaker 1: revolver bullet while giving a speech in Washington in nineteen 38 00:03:00,862 --> 00:03:04,742 Speaker 1: eighty one. So what does an assassination attempt look like 39 00:03:04,862 --> 00:03:07,782 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, How did Thomas Crooks get as 40 00:03:07,822 --> 00:03:10,502 Speaker 1: far as he did, and were there any signs that 41 00:03:10,582 --> 00:03:13,742 Speaker 1: the Secret Service missed. Matt Bevan is a reporter for 42 00:03:13,782 --> 00:03:17,702 Speaker 1: the ABC who specializes in US politics. He hosts a 43 00:03:17,702 --> 00:03:22,022 Speaker 1: podcast called if You're Listening Now. As more details emerge, 44 00:03:22,302 --> 00:03:26,222 Speaker 1: we're delving into the crime, the shooter, the aftermath, and 45 00:03:26,262 --> 00:03:36,702 Speaker 1: the families forever changed by this attack. Matt joins US Now, 46 00:03:39,862 --> 00:03:43,502 Speaker 1: the American political system is very different to ours. I'd 47 00:03:43,502 --> 00:03:45,582 Speaker 1: love you to set the scene a little bit about 48 00:03:45,622 --> 00:03:48,822 Speaker 1: what this event in Pennsylvania for Trump was all about 49 00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:51,742 Speaker 1: and where we were in the political landscape when this happened. 50 00:03:52,742 --> 00:03:56,422 Speaker 2: So this was a campaign rally for Donald Trump. Donald 51 00:03:56,462 --> 00:04:01,982 Speaker 2: Trump has won the Republican primary process, so that's how 52 00:04:02,022 --> 00:04:06,102 Speaker 2: they select who their party's candidate is going to be 53 00:04:06,782 --> 00:04:10,022 Speaker 2: for the presidential election. Trump had already seen that off, 54 00:04:10,062 --> 00:04:12,662 Speaker 2: and now he was in kind of a strange period 55 00:04:12,822 --> 00:04:18,422 Speaker 2: between becoming the what they call presumptive nominee and becoming 56 00:04:18,422 --> 00:04:22,022 Speaker 2: the candidate at the party's convention when they officially become 57 00:04:22,662 --> 00:04:26,222 Speaker 2: the party's candidate, and then campaign till the election in 58 00:04:26,262 --> 00:04:29,822 Speaker 2: November with the full support of the Republican Party. So 59 00:04:29,862 --> 00:04:33,062 Speaker 2: Donald Trump was sort of in this weird limbo period 60 00:04:33,102 --> 00:04:37,422 Speaker 2: between those two things, but still holding regular campaign events 61 00:04:37,462 --> 00:04:41,462 Speaker 2: and touring the United States. And this was a rally 62 00:04:41,542 --> 00:04:48,102 Speaker 2: that was announced about a week before it happened in Butler, Pennsylvania, 63 00:04:48,142 --> 00:04:52,662 Speaker 2: which is a small township about fifty minutes out of 64 00:04:52,742 --> 00:04:58,502 Speaker 2: Pittsburgh and a very strong Trump country. This is a 65 00:04:58,622 --> 00:05:02,542 Speaker 2: really strong Trump supporter base area. And so you know, 66 00:05:02,662 --> 00:05:05,542 Speaker 2: he was holding that rally to try and rev up 67 00:05:05,542 --> 00:05:09,062 Speaker 2: his supporters in the crucial state of Pennsylvania. The election 68 00:05:09,182 --> 00:05:12,982 Speaker 2: will potentially down to who wins the state of Pennsylvania, 69 00:05:13,542 --> 00:05:15,942 Speaker 2: and so it was a really important place for Donald 70 00:05:15,982 --> 00:05:18,782 Speaker 2: Trump to visit. And so he was there doing is 71 00:05:18,942 --> 00:05:22,302 Speaker 2: rally which was supposed to start at five o'clock, and 72 00:05:22,662 --> 00:05:24,662 Speaker 2: it had all been organized out there in the open, 73 00:05:25,302 --> 00:05:28,302 Speaker 2: with two cranes holding up a giant American flag above 74 00:05:28,382 --> 00:05:33,022 Speaker 2: the stage, bleaches surrounding the stage so that supporters could 75 00:05:33,022 --> 00:05:36,582 Speaker 2: be right up close to him, and of course the 76 00:05:36,702 --> 00:05:40,982 Speaker 2: Secret Service in place to try and make sure that 77 00:05:41,222 --> 00:05:44,182 Speaker 2: nothing like this shooting happens. 78 00:05:45,182 --> 00:05:47,702 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit more about the security preparations 79 00:05:47,782 --> 00:05:51,342 Speaker 1: because obviously for a nominee, they're going to be big. 80 00:05:51,382 --> 00:05:54,102 Speaker 1: But we've also got a former president, so I imagine 81 00:05:54,102 --> 00:05:56,542 Speaker 1: they're even more stringent. Do you know what they would 82 00:05:56,542 --> 00:05:57,622 Speaker 1: have looked like on that day. 83 00:05:58,502 --> 00:06:00,182 Speaker 2: The way it kind of works is there's sort of 84 00:06:00,302 --> 00:06:06,222 Speaker 2: three security groups all working together to protect Donald Trump 85 00:06:06,262 --> 00:06:10,942 Speaker 2: in this situation. You have the local police who are 86 00:06:10,982 --> 00:06:15,342 Speaker 2: there to control the crowd, to control traffic, to look 87 00:06:15,382 --> 00:06:19,182 Speaker 2: around the outer perimeter of the site and try and 88 00:06:19,182 --> 00:06:23,982 Speaker 2: make sure that nothing suspicious happens. Then you have the 89 00:06:24,222 --> 00:06:29,342 Speaker 2: Secret Service Counter Assault Team, So these are snipers and 90 00:06:30,182 --> 00:06:35,062 Speaker 2: trained shooters who arrive at the site beforehand, are there 91 00:06:35,502 --> 00:06:39,462 Speaker 2: in position on top of buildings and around the stage 92 00:06:39,662 --> 00:06:44,302 Speaker 2: in order to protect Trump if anything does happen. And 93 00:06:44,342 --> 00:06:48,582 Speaker 2: then there's his personal Secret Service detail who travels with him, 94 00:06:49,382 --> 00:06:51,862 Speaker 2: so they come with him to the site, and these 95 00:06:51,902 --> 00:06:54,582 Speaker 2: are the people that jumped on top of him when 96 00:06:54,622 --> 00:06:59,982 Speaker 2: the actual shooting happened. Their job is to stop Donald 97 00:07:00,022 --> 00:07:04,542 Speaker 2: Trump from getting hit by bullets rather than trying to 98 00:07:04,702 --> 00:07:07,422 Speaker 2: shoot back at whoever is shooting at Donald Trump. So 99 00:07:07,462 --> 00:07:10,982 Speaker 2: their job is to put their body between a bullet 100 00:07:11,062 --> 00:07:14,182 Speaker 2: and Donald Trump. Whereas the Counter Assault Team are the 101 00:07:14,222 --> 00:07:20,102 Speaker 2: ones who are supposed to shoot the shooter, and so 102 00:07:20,142 --> 00:07:22,942 Speaker 2: those are the three teams that were at play. There 103 00:07:23,102 --> 00:07:27,982 Speaker 2: is significant reporting around the idea that Donald Trump had 104 00:07:28,022 --> 00:07:31,662 Speaker 2: for some time been saying that his Secret Service protection 105 00:07:31,782 --> 00:07:35,582 Speaker 2: was insufficient and that he needed more agents to be 106 00:07:35,662 --> 00:07:39,942 Speaker 2: protecting him at his events, which you know that certainly 107 00:07:40,062 --> 00:07:43,022 Speaker 2: seems to be the case. But yes, so it was 108 00:07:43,062 --> 00:07:47,222 Speaker 2: basically three groups working theoretically in concert with each other 109 00:07:47,582 --> 00:07:49,702 Speaker 2: to try and make sure that something like this doesn't happen. 110 00:07:49,742 --> 00:07:53,582 Speaker 2: But as we can discuss, there were multiple failures, not 111 00:07:53,702 --> 00:07:56,822 Speaker 2: by the team with Trump his personal detail that jumped 112 00:07:56,862 --> 00:07:59,182 Speaker 2: on top of him. They did what they're supposed to do, 113 00:07:59,662 --> 00:08:04,742 Speaker 2: but by the other groups who really should have been 114 00:08:04,742 --> 00:08:08,702 Speaker 2: able to prevent this from happening because they saw and 115 00:08:08,822 --> 00:08:13,582 Speaker 2: engaged with the shooter multiple times between the shooter's arrival 116 00:08:13,822 --> 00:08:16,142 Speaker 2: and when he actually started firing shots. 117 00:08:17,062 --> 00:08:18,982 Speaker 1: I'd love to do a little bit of a comparison 118 00:08:19,262 --> 00:08:22,582 Speaker 1: just to kind of give us an idea that sounds 119 00:08:22,582 --> 00:08:25,262 Speaker 1: like a hell of a lot of security. How much 120 00:08:25,302 --> 00:08:28,862 Speaker 1: would an Australian Prime minister have around them at an 121 00:08:28,862 --> 00:08:29,782 Speaker 1: event like that. 122 00:08:30,902 --> 00:08:34,302 Speaker 2: The thing is that we don't really have events like 123 00:08:34,502 --> 00:08:38,702 Speaker 2: this where tens of thousands of people all come together 124 00:08:39,182 --> 00:08:45,182 Speaker 2: in the open outdoors for a big rock concert style 125 00:08:45,662 --> 00:08:48,302 Speaker 2: rally event. This is kind of an American thing that 126 00:08:48,342 --> 00:08:52,542 Speaker 2: doesn't really happen very often in Australia. I've interacted with 127 00:08:52,622 --> 00:08:56,942 Speaker 2: the Prime Minister's Protective Detail from time to time. They 128 00:08:56,982 --> 00:09:03,062 Speaker 2: are scary, large people in business suits who are very intimidating. 129 00:09:03,542 --> 00:09:08,382 Speaker 2: When I was just a quite young journalist, Julia Gillard 130 00:09:08,542 --> 00:09:11,382 Speaker 2: came to the radio state that I was working at 131 00:09:11,382 --> 00:09:15,662 Speaker 2: the ABC in Newcastle to be interviewed and with her 132 00:09:16,302 --> 00:09:19,502 Speaker 2: AFP protective detail, and they sort of came in and 133 00:09:19,542 --> 00:09:22,622 Speaker 2: they filled the building. There was six seven of them 134 00:09:23,142 --> 00:09:26,582 Speaker 2: standing around in rather a small radio station. And at 135 00:09:26,582 --> 00:09:30,702 Speaker 2: one point the presenter who was interviewing Julia Gillard asked 136 00:09:30,742 --> 00:09:32,582 Speaker 2: me to grab him a cup of tea, and so 137 00:09:32,622 --> 00:09:34,542 Speaker 2: I went and got a cup of tea and then 138 00:09:34,622 --> 00:09:36,542 Speaker 2: was bringing it into the studio and as one of 139 00:09:36,542 --> 00:09:39,342 Speaker 2: the AFP agents jumped in front of me, who's that 140 00:09:39,422 --> 00:09:44,582 Speaker 2: for the Prime Minister? And it's for It's not for her. 141 00:09:45,342 --> 00:09:48,582 Speaker 2: I can make her on if you want. Anyway. They're large, 142 00:09:48,622 --> 00:09:51,582 Speaker 2: intimidating people. But the key thing you got to remember 143 00:09:51,702 --> 00:09:57,302 Speaker 2: is say that hypothetically you are an Australian person who 144 00:09:57,342 --> 00:10:01,542 Speaker 2: wants to shoot at a prime minister, where are you 145 00:10:01,622 --> 00:10:04,062 Speaker 2: going to find a gun that can shoot at the 146 00:10:04,182 --> 00:10:08,702 Speaker 2: range that Thomas Matthew crooks. He was firing from a 147 00:10:08,742 --> 00:10:11,742 Speaker 2: distance of one hundred and thirty five meters. For a 148 00:10:11,902 --> 00:10:16,182 Speaker 2: trained marksman and for someone with a long range rifle, 149 00:10:16,742 --> 00:10:21,342 Speaker 2: that's not a particularly difficult shot. But in Australia, where 150 00:10:21,342 --> 00:10:23,702 Speaker 2: are you going to find a gun that can shoot 151 00:10:23,702 --> 00:10:28,422 Speaker 2: accurately at that range? So so much of the things 152 00:10:28,422 --> 00:10:32,462 Speaker 2: that protect our prime ministers and our politicians are at 153 00:10:32,502 --> 00:10:36,542 Speaker 2: the societal level, whereby we just don't have the weaponry 154 00:10:36,582 --> 00:10:41,022 Speaker 2: around to pull off a shooting like this. So it's 155 00:10:41,262 --> 00:10:44,502 Speaker 2: just far less likely in Australia, simply due to the 156 00:10:44,582 --> 00:10:49,502 Speaker 2: fact that you don't have millions of long range rifles 157 00:10:49,662 --> 00:10:53,222 Speaker 2: sitting around in people's cupboards. So the stakes are much 158 00:10:53,262 --> 00:10:54,942 Speaker 2: higher in the United States, and the job is much 159 00:10:54,982 --> 00:10:58,102 Speaker 2: more difficult for the Secret Service simply due to the 160 00:10:58,182 --> 00:11:03,182 Speaker 2: prevalence of high powered, long range weaponry in American society. 161 00:11:04,022 --> 00:11:07,782 Speaker 1: We've all seen the footage or the photo of Trump 162 00:11:07,902 --> 00:11:09,902 Speaker 1: holding his fist in the air with his Secret Service 163 00:11:09,942 --> 00:11:13,702 Speaker 1: around him. But can you talk us through exactly what happened. 164 00:11:14,102 --> 00:11:17,022 Speaker 1: It was just after six pm. Trump gets onto the 165 00:11:17,062 --> 00:11:19,102 Speaker 1: stage at this Pennsylvania rally. 166 00:11:20,142 --> 00:11:22,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, Donald Trump was more than an hour late for 167 00:11:23,102 --> 00:11:25,422 Speaker 2: his event. He was supposed to be speaking just after 168 00:11:25,462 --> 00:11:29,222 Speaker 2: five o'clock, but he didn't arrive until five past six. 169 00:11:29,982 --> 00:11:33,222 Speaker 2: He drove up his motorcade, came right up very close 170 00:11:33,262 --> 00:11:36,222 Speaker 2: to the stage. He walked up onto the stage. Lee 171 00:11:36,382 --> 00:11:40,462 Speaker 2: Greenwood's God Bless the USA song that he plays every 172 00:11:40,502 --> 00:11:43,742 Speaker 2: time he comes on the stage played. He walks around, 173 00:11:43,822 --> 00:11:46,982 Speaker 2: pumping his fists, waving at the crowd, that kind of thing, 174 00:11:47,422 --> 00:11:49,542 Speaker 2: and then he starts speaking. And he was only speaking 175 00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:54,262 Speaker 2: for about five minutes before the shots started being fired. 176 00:11:54,382 --> 00:11:56,662 Speaker 2: But one of the interesting things that Donald Trump says 177 00:11:56,702 --> 00:12:00,942 Speaker 2: about the reason that the shooting was unsuccessful is there 178 00:12:00,942 --> 00:12:06,342 Speaker 2: were big screens, you know, big led TV screens surrounding 179 00:12:06,382 --> 00:12:09,502 Speaker 2: the stage. And Donald Trump as he was speaking, he 180 00:12:09,622 --> 00:12:12,742 Speaker 2: speaks off the cuff a lot. He varies from his script. 181 00:12:12,982 --> 00:12:17,102 Speaker 2: He starts talking about this chart of illegal immigration into 182 00:12:17,102 --> 00:12:20,262 Speaker 2: the United States that he apparently loves to look at 183 00:12:20,502 --> 00:12:22,902 Speaker 2: because it indicates that there has been an increase in 184 00:12:22,942 --> 00:12:27,142 Speaker 2: the number of irregular migrants coming into the United States 185 00:12:27,182 --> 00:12:30,382 Speaker 2: since he left office. So he sort of asks his team, 186 00:12:30,662 --> 00:12:32,742 Speaker 2: can you put this chart up on the big screen. 187 00:12:33,142 --> 00:12:37,462 Speaker 2: They do, and then he's sort of turning, turning his 188 00:12:37,462 --> 00:12:40,542 Speaker 2: head towards the big screen on the side of the 189 00:12:40,542 --> 00:12:43,662 Speaker 2: stage and directing his audience to have a look at 190 00:12:43,662 --> 00:12:45,382 Speaker 2: the chart. And he's talking about the chart and that 191 00:12:45,462 --> 00:12:48,462 Speaker 2: kind of thing. He was sort of looking straight at 192 00:12:48,502 --> 00:12:51,382 Speaker 2: the crowd, straight at the camera, and then he turns 193 00:12:51,422 --> 00:12:53,822 Speaker 2: his head to the side to look at the chart, 194 00:12:54,022 --> 00:12:58,782 Speaker 2: and that was when the first bullet flies past his head, 195 00:12:59,782 --> 00:13:05,742 Speaker 2: seemingly clips his right ear, just missing we're talking millimeters 196 00:13:05,742 --> 00:13:09,502 Speaker 2: away from hitting him in the head, and then carries 197 00:13:09,542 --> 00:13:14,142 Speaker 2: on beyond him and into the bleaches that were sort 198 00:13:14,142 --> 00:13:18,262 Speaker 2: of at stage left from his perspective, and hits people 199 00:13:18,382 --> 00:13:21,902 Speaker 2: in the crowd. And Donald Trump says it was only 200 00:13:21,982 --> 00:13:24,822 Speaker 2: because of this chart and the fact that he was 201 00:13:24,862 --> 00:13:26,782 Speaker 2: looking at it at the time and just turned his 202 00:13:26,822 --> 00:13:30,182 Speaker 2: head towards the chart on the big screen that he 203 00:13:30,342 --> 00:13:33,982 Speaker 2: was saved from being shot. But yes, from Trump's perspective, 204 00:13:34,142 --> 00:13:37,782 Speaker 2: he arrived, spoke for five minutes, turned his head towards 205 00:13:37,822 --> 00:13:41,582 Speaker 2: the chart, felt a pain in his ear, and then 206 00:13:42,342 --> 00:13:45,742 Speaker 2: dropped to the ground and was covered by Secret Service agents. 207 00:13:45,742 --> 00:13:49,742 Speaker 2: Who he says, tackled him so hard that his shoes 208 00:13:49,782 --> 00:13:54,022 Speaker 2: came off. He then gets to his feet after the 209 00:13:54,422 --> 00:13:58,422 Speaker 2: Secret Service says that the shooter has been taken down. 210 00:13:59,182 --> 00:14:02,582 Speaker 2: It was twenty six seconds from the first shot being 211 00:14:02,622 --> 00:14:08,182 Speaker 2: fired to the shooter being shot by the Secret Service, 212 00:14:08,822 --> 00:14:12,422 Speaker 2: and so about a minute after the shooting, Donald Trump 213 00:14:12,582 --> 00:14:15,582 Speaker 2: is brought to his feet by the Secret Service. He 214 00:14:15,622 --> 00:14:17,902 Speaker 2: asks them to wait while he puts his shoes back on, 215 00:14:19,022 --> 00:14:21,662 Speaker 2: and as they start to escort him off the stage, 216 00:14:21,702 --> 00:14:24,342 Speaker 2: he just asks them to wait one more time, and 217 00:14:24,382 --> 00:14:26,702 Speaker 2: then he puts his fist in the air, pumps his 218 00:14:26,782 --> 00:14:31,822 Speaker 2: fist and mouths the word fight three times. He says 219 00:14:31,822 --> 00:14:34,302 Speaker 2: that he shouted the word fight three times. He didn't. 220 00:14:34,902 --> 00:14:37,822 Speaker 2: The microphone was right next to him, and we heard 221 00:14:37,902 --> 00:14:39,542 Speaker 2: him say wait, wait, wait, I need to get my 222 00:14:39,542 --> 00:14:41,942 Speaker 2: shoes and blah blah blah blah. But when he's actually 223 00:14:41,982 --> 00:14:44,942 Speaker 2: saying fight, no noise is coming out of his mouth. 224 00:14:44,942 --> 00:14:47,662 Speaker 2: He's mouthing the word fight. I'm not sure why he 225 00:14:47,782 --> 00:14:49,142 Speaker 2: was mouthing it and not shouting it. 226 00:14:49,062 --> 00:14:50,342 Speaker 1: Which is a bizarre detail. 227 00:14:50,702 --> 00:14:52,142 Speaker 2: One of the mysteries of Donald Trump. 228 00:14:56,662 --> 00:15:01,582 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath Up. Next, 229 00:15:01,702 --> 00:15:04,502 Speaker 1: we discuss what could possibly drive a twenty year old 230 00:15:04,582 --> 00:15:07,982 Speaker 1: kitchen worker to carry out an assassination attempt on a 231 00:15:08,022 --> 00:15:17,542 Speaker 1: former president of the United States. The assassination attempt on 232 00:15:17,582 --> 00:15:22,502 Speaker 1: Trump was obviously unsuccessful, but the shooter did kill someone 233 00:15:22,782 --> 00:15:25,902 Speaker 1: and really critically injure to others. What do we know 234 00:15:25,982 --> 00:15:30,382 Speaker 1: about the people that were killed in her. 235 00:15:30,102 --> 00:15:34,702 Speaker 2: So, looking from the shooter's perspective straight past Trump, there 236 00:15:34,742 --> 00:15:38,422 Speaker 2: was a crowd, and so the three shots that we 237 00:15:38,582 --> 00:15:42,662 Speaker 2: believe the shooter fired went into that crowd behind Trump 238 00:15:43,502 --> 00:15:48,382 Speaker 2: and hit three people, one of whom was a retired firefighter, 239 00:15:48,422 --> 00:15:54,622 Speaker 2: our volunteer firefighter named Corey Compretour, who was reportedly putting 240 00:15:54,622 --> 00:15:58,262 Speaker 2: his body in between the shooter and his family and 241 00:15:58,422 --> 00:16:01,102 Speaker 2: was hit in the head and killed, and two other 242 00:16:01,142 --> 00:16:05,622 Speaker 2: people were injured. Large numbers of the crowd went to 243 00:16:05,662 --> 00:16:08,022 Speaker 2: the aid of those people. You can see video of 244 00:16:08,102 --> 00:16:12,182 Speaker 2: a lot of crowd members who were interviewed by the 245 00:16:12,222 --> 00:16:16,662 Speaker 2: media afterwards with blood on their clothes while they tried 246 00:16:16,662 --> 00:16:19,342 Speaker 2: to help the people who had been hit. All of 247 00:16:19,382 --> 00:16:23,422 Speaker 2: them were men, and Corey Compretour was the man who 248 00:16:23,462 --> 00:16:24,422 Speaker 2: was hit in the head and killed. 249 00:16:25,702 --> 00:16:29,222 Speaker 1: The first obvious question is how did this happen, which 250 00:16:29,262 --> 00:16:31,182 Speaker 1: we've obviously touched on a little bit, but I want 251 00:16:31,182 --> 00:16:36,582 Speaker 1: to start with the many witnesses because lots of people 252 00:16:36,702 --> 00:16:40,782 Speaker 1: saw Thomas before he shot at the former president. Let's 253 00:16:40,782 --> 00:16:44,142 Speaker 1: start with the crowd coming in early and Thomas milling 254 00:16:44,182 --> 00:16:48,022 Speaker 1: around everyone. What did witnesses see? 255 00:16:48,302 --> 00:16:53,622 Speaker 2: He was spotted many times. He was first identified by 256 00:16:54,102 --> 00:16:58,422 Speaker 2: the authorities as a person of interest at ten past five, 257 00:16:58,542 --> 00:17:01,582 Speaker 2: so that is one hour and one minute before the 258 00:17:01,662 --> 00:17:06,222 Speaker 2: first shot was fired. He entered the secure area, so 259 00:17:06,342 --> 00:17:11,902 Speaker 2: that's going through the metal detectors. He was carrying a rangefinder. 260 00:17:12,262 --> 00:17:14,622 Speaker 2: So a rangefinder is a sort of looks like a 261 00:17:14,622 --> 00:17:18,222 Speaker 2: little telescope that you look through and it fires like 262 00:17:18,262 --> 00:17:21,422 Speaker 2: a laser, and then the laser bounces back and then 263 00:17:21,462 --> 00:17:24,902 Speaker 2: it sort of calculates the distance of whatever you're pointing 264 00:17:25,582 --> 00:17:27,662 Speaker 2: the range finder out. Now, this is used by lots 265 00:17:27,702 --> 00:17:30,742 Speaker 2: of people for lots of different reasons. Surveyors people playing 266 00:17:30,782 --> 00:17:33,622 Speaker 2: golf often will use a rangefinder to see how far 267 00:17:33,662 --> 00:17:39,382 Speaker 2: away the tears, but also by potential shooters figuring out 268 00:17:39,422 --> 00:17:42,502 Speaker 2: how far away various things are from where they're standing 269 00:17:42,542 --> 00:17:45,942 Speaker 2: in order to calculate the angle of their shot. So 270 00:17:46,022 --> 00:17:48,182 Speaker 2: he had a rangefinder on him and who was looking 271 00:17:48,222 --> 00:17:53,902 Speaker 2: at things through it. He was spotted by the Secret 272 00:17:53,902 --> 00:17:59,302 Speaker 2: Service snipers. So he's looking at them through his rangefinder 273 00:17:59,702 --> 00:18:03,742 Speaker 2: and they look back at him through their scopes, and 274 00:18:03,782 --> 00:18:06,102 Speaker 2: so they saw each other while they're on the ground 275 00:18:06,102 --> 00:18:09,262 Speaker 2: and while he was sort of skulking around looking at things. 276 00:18:10,542 --> 00:18:15,182 Speaker 2: And then we've all seen videos of the various rally 277 00:18:15,222 --> 00:18:19,102 Speaker 2: goers witnessing him on the roof, seeing him having climbed 278 00:18:19,182 --> 00:18:21,822 Speaker 2: up onto the roof with his gun, and trying to 279 00:18:21,862 --> 00:18:25,782 Speaker 2: alert authorities to his presence there. But what we now 280 00:18:26,502 --> 00:18:29,462 Speaker 2: think is that authorities were very aware of the fact 281 00:18:29,502 --> 00:18:32,382 Speaker 2: that he was up there. There's now been reporting in 282 00:18:32,422 --> 00:18:36,462 Speaker 2: the Associated Press that says that the Butler County Sheriff, 283 00:18:36,542 --> 00:18:41,462 Speaker 2: Michael Sloop, said that, in fact, a police officer tried 284 00:18:41,502 --> 00:18:45,022 Speaker 2: to climb up onto the roof to figure out what 285 00:18:45,142 --> 00:18:49,462 Speaker 2: this guy was doing. So another officer hoisted a police 286 00:18:49,502 --> 00:18:51,422 Speaker 2: officer up to the edge of the roof to the 287 00:18:51,462 --> 00:18:54,982 Speaker 2: gutter area, where the police officer tried to pull himself up. 288 00:18:55,742 --> 00:19:02,142 Speaker 2: The police officer saw Matthew Crooks with his gun. Thomas 289 00:19:02,182 --> 00:19:05,862 Speaker 2: Matthew Crooks turned around, pointed the gun at the officer 290 00:19:06,262 --> 00:19:09,742 Speaker 2: at which point the officer dropped down back below the 291 00:19:09,862 --> 00:19:13,742 Speaker 2: level of the gutter. He was dangling from the edge 292 00:19:13,782 --> 00:19:17,782 Speaker 2: of the building obviously, you know, holding on with two hands, 293 00:19:17,862 --> 00:19:20,982 Speaker 2: unable to get his own gun, obviously to fire at Crooks. 294 00:19:21,822 --> 00:19:26,102 Speaker 2: The officer then fell from the building, landed on the 295 00:19:26,142 --> 00:19:30,662 Speaker 2: ground and has severely injured their ankle. They're now walking 296 00:19:30,742 --> 00:19:33,622 Speaker 2: around in a boot, so a significant injury to their 297 00:19:33,622 --> 00:19:37,142 Speaker 2: ankle after falling eight feet to the ground. So the 298 00:19:37,182 --> 00:19:41,702 Speaker 2: police definitely knew he was there. Another extraordinary fact is 299 00:19:41,742 --> 00:19:44,302 Speaker 2: that the building that Thomas Matthew Crooks climbed up on 300 00:19:44,342 --> 00:19:47,742 Speaker 2: top of was shooting from was the staging position for 301 00:19:47,782 --> 00:19:51,702 Speaker 2: the police, so the police were organizing themselves inside the building, 302 00:19:52,662 --> 00:19:54,942 Speaker 2: so they were certainly very aware of the fact that 303 00:19:54,982 --> 00:19:58,342 Speaker 2: he was there. In fact, the Secret Service apparently spotted 304 00:19:58,422 --> 00:20:00,862 Speaker 2: him on the groof twenty minutes before the shooting. I 305 00:20:00,862 --> 00:20:06,142 Speaker 2: don't really understand how it's possible that they didn't at 306 00:20:06,262 --> 00:20:11,102 Speaker 2: least warn Trump get Trump off the stage. There must 307 00:20:11,142 --> 00:20:14,062 Speaker 2: be some reason behind it. I certainly don't buy into 308 00:20:14,102 --> 00:20:17,102 Speaker 2: the theory that there was some conspiracy by the Secret 309 00:20:17,142 --> 00:20:20,622 Speaker 2: Service in order to allow someone to shoot at Trump. 310 00:20:20,702 --> 00:20:23,342 Speaker 2: I don't buy that for a second, but it certainly 311 00:20:23,342 --> 00:20:26,142 Speaker 2: seems like they were extremely aware of him being up there. 312 00:20:26,302 --> 00:20:28,902 Speaker 2: The public knew that he was there. The rally goers 313 00:20:28,902 --> 00:20:32,702 Speaker 2: were shouting trying to get someone to deal with him, 314 00:20:33,182 --> 00:20:36,542 Speaker 2: but he was able to remain on the roof long 315 00:20:36,662 --> 00:20:41,062 Speaker 2: enough for Trump to arrive, start his speech and then 316 00:20:41,422 --> 00:20:42,582 Speaker 2: fire three shots at him. 317 00:20:43,022 --> 00:20:45,662 Speaker 1: There's a lot of criticism out there against the Secret 318 00:20:45,742 --> 00:20:49,182 Speaker 1: Service right now. Is that under investigation? Is that something 319 00:20:49,222 --> 00:20:50,702 Speaker 1: we might find out more about? 320 00:20:51,182 --> 00:20:53,702 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I definitely think we'll find a lot more 321 00:20:53,742 --> 00:20:58,222 Speaker 2: about it. There's a significant investigation going into it, looking 322 00:20:58,262 --> 00:21:01,582 Speaker 2: into how this happened. What I'm telling you now is 323 00:21:01,662 --> 00:21:03,862 Speaker 2: sort of scattered reports from the police. Gave a little 324 00:21:03,862 --> 00:21:06,502 Speaker 2: press conference and said there's The Secret Service issued a 325 00:21:06,542 --> 00:21:10,302 Speaker 2: statement that said that witnesses said this saw that. There 326 00:21:10,502 --> 00:21:13,742 Speaker 2: will be an investigation where hundreds of people are interviewed 327 00:21:13,902 --> 00:21:17,182 Speaker 2: and they get a really solid picture of who was 328 00:21:17,262 --> 00:21:21,062 Speaker 2: where and who saw what at which time, and so, yeah, 329 00:21:21,102 --> 00:21:23,662 Speaker 2: we will eventually get a clear picture of exactly how 330 00:21:23,702 --> 00:21:26,502 Speaker 2: this could possibly have happened. But it is a failure 331 00:21:26,542 --> 00:21:30,582 Speaker 2: by the Secret Service obviously by definition. But it'd be 332 00:21:30,582 --> 00:21:36,302 Speaker 2: interesting to see exactly how they explain the fact that 333 00:21:36,462 --> 00:21:40,502 Speaker 2: so many law enforcement officers saw a man on a 334 00:21:40,582 --> 00:21:44,502 Speaker 2: roof one hundred and thirty meters away from Donald Trump, 335 00:21:44,542 --> 00:21:48,982 Speaker 2: which is certainly within rifle range, and didn't do anything 336 00:21:48,982 --> 00:21:49,422 Speaker 2: about it. 337 00:21:50,182 --> 00:21:53,462 Speaker 1: You brought up the word conspiracy before, huh, and very 338 00:21:53,582 --> 00:21:58,542 Speaker 1: very quickly after the shooting, we descended into many conspiracy holes. 339 00:21:58,942 --> 00:21:59,902 Speaker 1: Were you expecting that? 340 00:22:00,622 --> 00:22:04,222 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, That's exactly the way that these things 341 00:22:04,262 --> 00:22:07,622 Speaker 2: always go. It needn't be something as dramatic as a 342 00:22:07,662 --> 00:22:12,902 Speaker 2: shooting to throw people in the States into speculation about conspiracies. 343 00:22:13,062 --> 00:22:17,142 Speaker 2: In fact, the first tweets I saw when I opened 344 00:22:17,182 --> 00:22:21,182 Speaker 2: my phone on Sunday morning were tweets saying that Trump 345 00:22:21,262 --> 00:22:27,822 Speaker 2: staged this. Trump organized this himself simply to create a 346 00:22:27,862 --> 00:22:31,262 Speaker 2: scenario where he could be photographed pumping his fists in 347 00:22:31,302 --> 00:22:34,622 Speaker 2: the air with blood on his ear. Even still, there's 348 00:22:34,702 --> 00:22:38,102 Speaker 2: all these people who are demanding to know whether it 349 00:22:38,182 --> 00:22:40,662 Speaker 2: was really a bullet that hit Trump in the ear, 350 00:22:40,782 --> 00:22:44,542 Speaker 2: whether it was shrapnel from a teleprompter that was hit 351 00:22:44,622 --> 00:22:49,622 Speaker 2: by a bullet or whatever. I don't really know why 352 00:22:49,862 --> 00:22:52,662 Speaker 2: that matters, as far as I'm aware, it was a 353 00:22:52,662 --> 00:22:54,862 Speaker 2: bullet that hit him in the ear. But even if 354 00:22:54,862 --> 00:22:58,062 Speaker 2: it wasn't. He was being shot at and he was injured. 355 00:22:58,142 --> 00:23:00,302 Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't really matter whether it was a bullet 356 00:23:00,382 --> 00:23:02,822 Speaker 2: or shrapnel that hit him in the air. He was 357 00:23:02,862 --> 00:23:07,422 Speaker 2: being shot at by a man with a long range rifle. 358 00:23:07,782 --> 00:23:11,942 Speaker 2: So certainly something terrible happened to Donald Trump, something terrifying, 359 00:23:12,742 --> 00:23:15,582 Speaker 2: and something that absolutely should not have been able to happen. 360 00:23:16,142 --> 00:23:18,422 Speaker 2: And of course that's the source of so many other 361 00:23:18,462 --> 00:23:22,902 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories that the Secret Service deliberately ignored Thomas Crooks, 362 00:23:23,022 --> 00:23:26,742 Speaker 2: or that he was somehow enabled by the Secret Service, 363 00:23:27,422 --> 00:23:30,462 Speaker 2: or was inspired to do what he did by Joe 364 00:23:30,462 --> 00:23:34,942 Speaker 2: Biden's Retrick talking about Donald Trump as a threat to democracy. 365 00:23:35,382 --> 00:23:38,062 Speaker 2: You know, Donald Trump, in his speech to the Republican 366 00:23:38,142 --> 00:23:43,022 Speaker 2: National Convention, decried the fact that Joe Biden was calling 367 00:23:43,142 --> 00:23:49,502 Speaker 2: him an enemy of democracy. Donald Trump has very frequently 368 00:23:50,102 --> 00:23:55,342 Speaker 2: described other politicians as enemies of the state. It's incredibly 369 00:23:55,422 --> 00:24:00,462 Speaker 2: hypocritical for Donald Trump to blame violent retrick for what 370 00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:04,902 Speaker 2: happened to him, given that he himself uses violent retrick 371 00:24:04,942 --> 00:24:07,502 Speaker 2: and has done for his entire political career. 372 00:24:08,822 --> 00:24:12,822 Speaker 1: We can scoff at these conspiers theories, and they do 373 00:24:12,862 --> 00:24:15,222 Speaker 1: get quite wild. I've seen some out there saying a 374 00:24:15,302 --> 00:24:18,622 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two movie predicted the shooting, or the Bible 375 00:24:18,702 --> 00:24:22,982 Speaker 1: predicted it. It just goes further and further into insane theories. 376 00:24:23,382 --> 00:24:26,342 Speaker 1: But these theories can be really dangerous, can't they? 377 00:24:26,742 --> 00:24:31,542 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, And it's a really concerning quirk of American 378 00:24:31,702 --> 00:24:37,942 Speaker 2: culture whereby so many Americans assume that they are being swindled, 379 00:24:37,982 --> 00:24:42,222 Speaker 2: that the truth of any scenario is being hidden from them, 380 00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:48,142 Speaker 2: that the other team, whoever they may be, are trying 381 00:24:48,182 --> 00:24:52,662 Speaker 2: to trick them or lying to them, or things are 382 00:24:52,662 --> 00:24:55,542 Speaker 2: not as they've seen. This has been the case. We 383 00:24:55,622 --> 00:24:58,982 Speaker 2: explored in last week's episode of If You're Listening, the 384 00:24:59,022 --> 00:25:05,302 Speaker 2: way that conspiracy theories emerged immediately and gained pace after 385 00:25:05,342 --> 00:25:08,542 Speaker 2: the John F. Kennedy assassination in nineteen sixty three. The 386 00:25:08,582 --> 00:25:14,422 Speaker 2: conspiracy began because there were things missing from the official 387 00:25:14,542 --> 00:25:19,142 Speaker 2: report into what happened that day with the shooting of 388 00:25:19,182 --> 00:25:23,382 Speaker 2: John F. Kennedy and with the shooter, Leharvey Oswald. Things 389 00:25:23,462 --> 00:25:25,382 Speaker 2: weren't in the report. Things were kept out of the 390 00:25:25,422 --> 00:25:28,502 Speaker 2: report by the CIA, by the FBI, and by the 391 00:25:28,502 --> 00:25:33,462 Speaker 2: Secret Service. And that's actually true. The American government did 392 00:25:33,862 --> 00:25:40,502 Speaker 2: lie to the investigators, but not about the shooting, they 393 00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:44,742 Speaker 2: tried to cover up other things that they didn't want 394 00:25:44,782 --> 00:25:48,662 Speaker 2: to get dragged out into the public, for example, assassination 395 00:25:48,702 --> 00:25:53,982 Speaker 2: attempts on Fidel Castro or other global leaders, attempts to 396 00:25:54,222 --> 00:25:57,902 Speaker 2: create pretexts for a war with Cuba. They thought all 397 00:25:57,942 --> 00:26:00,622 Speaker 2: these embarrassing things may come out in the public if 398 00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:04,462 Speaker 2: the investigators got a hold of that information and went 399 00:26:04,542 --> 00:26:07,742 Speaker 2: down that rabbit hole. The CIA is basically saying, well, 400 00:26:08,182 --> 00:26:10,862 Speaker 2: he did do it, he did act alone, had nothing 401 00:26:10,862 --> 00:26:12,542 Speaker 2: to do with it. Why do we have to let 402 00:26:12,582 --> 00:26:15,622 Speaker 2: all our dirty laundry out? So they really did engage 403 00:26:15,662 --> 00:26:18,382 Speaker 2: in a cover up, not about the shooting itself, but 404 00:26:18,502 --> 00:26:21,022 Speaker 2: they did engage in a cover up. And wherever there 405 00:26:21,062 --> 00:26:23,902 Speaker 2: is a cover up, you're going to have people going, well, 406 00:26:23,902 --> 00:26:25,542 Speaker 2: why did you cover it up? What is it that 407 00:26:25,582 --> 00:26:29,182 Speaker 2: you're covering up? And that is really where conspiracy theories begin. 408 00:26:29,502 --> 00:26:33,462 Speaker 2: And sixty one years on from that shooting, we now 409 00:26:33,462 --> 00:26:36,422 Speaker 2: have a situation where it is so normalized that any 410 00:26:36,462 --> 00:26:42,782 Speaker 2: event will instantly spawn dozens of conspiracy theories. And that's 411 00:26:42,822 --> 00:26:45,302 Speaker 2: just sort of expected from any big event in the 412 00:26:45,382 --> 00:26:48,302 Speaker 2: United States, let alone a shooting like this. 413 00:27:00,462 --> 00:27:03,662 Speaker 1: What were the reactions to the shooting in the days 414 00:27:03,662 --> 00:27:07,502 Speaker 1: that followed, Biden obviously had to address it, our politicians 415 00:27:07,542 --> 00:27:08,102 Speaker 1: addressed it. 416 00:27:08,742 --> 00:27:14,742 Speaker 2: I think there was universal condem of what happened from everyone. Obviously, 417 00:27:14,862 --> 00:27:18,622 Speaker 2: nobody wants political violence. But one of the interesting things 418 00:27:18,622 --> 00:27:21,342 Speaker 2: that did happen from the Republican side was a number 419 00:27:21,342 --> 00:27:25,382 Speaker 2: of high profile Republicans coming out and saying Joe Biden 420 00:27:25,822 --> 00:27:30,302 Speaker 2: ordered this by describing Trump as an enemy of democracy 421 00:27:30,342 --> 00:27:32,862 Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, or Joe Biden is responsible 422 00:27:32,902 --> 00:27:35,502 Speaker 2: for this that kind of thing. And there's some speculation 423 00:27:35,662 --> 00:27:39,742 Speaker 2: that jd Vance, who has now been named as Donald 424 00:27:39,782 --> 00:27:45,622 Speaker 2: Trump's vice presidential running mate, his tweets along those lines 425 00:27:45,662 --> 00:27:48,102 Speaker 2: may have been what pushed him to the top of 426 00:27:48,142 --> 00:27:51,982 Speaker 2: the pile for consideration for the vice presidential pick, because 427 00:27:52,062 --> 00:27:56,102 Speaker 2: he instantly came on board blamed Joe Biden for Joe 428 00:27:56,142 --> 00:28:01,542 Speaker 2: Biden's retrick for causing this shooting. So and then of 429 00:28:01,542 --> 00:28:04,182 Speaker 2: course there was a wave of discussion about unity and 430 00:28:04,222 --> 00:28:07,862 Speaker 2: trying to come together and toned down the retric and 431 00:28:07,862 --> 00:28:10,222 Speaker 2: that kind of thing that lasted all of about a 432 00:28:10,782 --> 00:28:13,862 Speaker 2: nearly a week, and we're now back to basically where 433 00:28:13,902 --> 00:28:16,542 Speaker 2: we were before in terms of the way that each 434 00:28:16,582 --> 00:28:19,742 Speaker 2: party talks about each other. Donald Trump tried to give 435 00:28:19,782 --> 00:28:23,582 Speaker 2: a unifying speech at the convention, but went off script 436 00:28:24,382 --> 00:28:28,742 Speaker 2: multiple times to say things about Joe Biden and the 437 00:28:28,782 --> 00:28:34,022 Speaker 2: Democrats and create and propagate conspiracy theories that there is 438 00:28:34,062 --> 00:28:38,022 Speaker 2: some sort of a widespread operation to try and take 439 00:28:38,062 --> 00:28:41,062 Speaker 2: Donald Trump out. One shooting is not going to be 440 00:28:41,182 --> 00:28:46,382 Speaker 2: enough to turn the United States political environment around into 441 00:28:46,422 --> 00:28:50,542 Speaker 2: one where people are speaking in a nonviolent way. 442 00:28:51,982 --> 00:28:54,422 Speaker 1: I think that's a good point to talk more about 443 00:28:54,422 --> 00:28:57,062 Speaker 1: the shooter, because all of this madness comes down to 444 00:28:57,102 --> 00:29:01,462 Speaker 1: this one twenty year old man who was Thomas Crooks. 445 00:29:02,302 --> 00:29:05,622 Speaker 2: Thomas Crooks was twenty as you say, he was a local. 446 00:29:05,702 --> 00:29:09,982 Speaker 2: He lived about an hour's drive away from the site. 447 00:29:10,102 --> 00:29:15,782 Speaker 2: He was a good student at school. There's some debate 448 00:29:16,302 --> 00:29:18,662 Speaker 2: about the level to which he was bullied at school. 449 00:29:18,742 --> 00:29:22,782 Speaker 2: Some schoolmates have said that he was mercilessly bullied while 450 00:29:22,822 --> 00:29:25,862 Speaker 2: he was in high school. Others have said that he wasn't. 451 00:29:25,902 --> 00:29:28,382 Speaker 2: He was just sort of sort of kept to himself, 452 00:29:28,742 --> 00:29:32,142 Speaker 2: didn't really interact a lot with others. He left school, 453 00:29:32,182 --> 00:29:34,062 Speaker 2: he was living with his parents. He was sort of 454 00:29:34,102 --> 00:29:37,462 Speaker 2: training in engineering. He worked at a local nursing home 455 00:29:37,622 --> 00:29:43,062 Speaker 2: in the kitchen to make money. And he was interested 456 00:29:43,142 --> 00:29:46,462 Speaker 2: in guns. He went to the shooting range. His father, 457 00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:50,902 Speaker 2: it seems, owned an AR fifteen style rifle, which is 458 00:29:51,702 --> 00:29:54,622 Speaker 2: the rifle that he ended up using to shoot Donald Trump. 459 00:29:54,942 --> 00:29:56,942 Speaker 2: But from what they can tell, he wasn't a particularly 460 00:29:56,982 --> 00:29:59,062 Speaker 2: political person. It's not as though they've gone into his 461 00:29:59,142 --> 00:30:04,102 Speaker 2: house and found conspiracy boards on the walls or a 462 00:30:04,222 --> 00:30:10,382 Speaker 2: huge trove of Joe Biden memorabilia or MAGA hats or anything. 463 00:30:11,182 --> 00:30:13,942 Speaker 2: He's a registered Republican, but that doesn't necessarily mean that 464 00:30:13,982 --> 00:30:16,902 Speaker 2: he's a supporter of the Republican Party. It just means 465 00:30:16,902 --> 00:30:19,302 Speaker 2: that he wants to vote in Republican primaries, which is 466 00:30:19,462 --> 00:30:21,262 Speaker 2: something that a lot of people might want to do. 467 00:30:22,022 --> 00:30:24,022 Speaker 2: Friends have said that he was sort of a conservative guy, 468 00:30:24,862 --> 00:30:28,262 Speaker 2: but then in search of a motive, you know, people 469 00:30:28,302 --> 00:30:32,662 Speaker 2: are sort of looking for a political motive. But as 470 00:30:32,902 --> 00:30:36,262 Speaker 2: the FBI have been going through his phone and his details, 471 00:30:37,182 --> 00:30:41,542 Speaker 2: they're basically finding evidence of a man who kind of 472 00:30:41,902 --> 00:30:44,462 Speaker 2: was looking up events from all sorts of people. He 473 00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:47,982 Speaker 2: was searching not just for Donald Trump events, but for 474 00:30:48,062 --> 00:30:52,142 Speaker 2: Joe Biden events, searching up where the Attorney General Merrick 475 00:30:52,182 --> 00:30:55,302 Speaker 2: Garland was going to be at any particular time, even 476 00:30:55,342 --> 00:30:59,022 Speaker 2: searching up where Kate Middleton of the British royal family, 477 00:30:59,102 --> 00:31:02,222 Speaker 2: her movements, that kind of thing. I think one of 478 00:31:02,262 --> 00:31:05,302 Speaker 2: the interesting things about this is this man doesn't seem 479 00:31:05,422 --> 00:31:11,342 Speaker 2: like a traditional twentieth century assassin. He doesn't seem like 480 00:31:11,422 --> 00:31:17,502 Speaker 2: he's been necessarily radicalized one way or another. He fits 481 00:31:17,542 --> 00:31:21,902 Speaker 2: the profile more of a school shooter. He seems to 482 00:31:21,942 --> 00:31:24,622 Speaker 2: be more like the sort of person that increasingly in 483 00:31:24,662 --> 00:31:28,422 Speaker 2: the twentieth first century decides to go on a mass 484 00:31:28,422 --> 00:31:31,702 Speaker 2: shooting in some public place or at a school. You 485 00:31:31,742 --> 00:31:34,662 Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily say that people who go to a shopping 486 00:31:34,702 --> 00:31:37,742 Speaker 2: center and start shooting at people, or people go to 487 00:31:37,782 --> 00:31:40,342 Speaker 2: a movie theater and start shooting at people, had a 488 00:31:40,422 --> 00:31:44,382 Speaker 2: problem with the shopping center or with the movie theater. 489 00:31:45,622 --> 00:31:50,502 Speaker 2: This is a person potentially who just wanted to create 490 00:31:50,542 --> 00:31:56,382 Speaker 2: a massive event, become a notorious person, and saw this 491 00:31:56,462 --> 00:32:01,742 Speaker 2: as an opportunity to do that, rather than was taken 492 00:32:01,862 --> 00:32:08,622 Speaker 2: with a desire to kill Donald Trump specifically. That being said, 493 00:32:08,662 --> 00:32:11,422 Speaker 2: we're still very early on in the investigation, and obviously 494 00:32:11,462 --> 00:32:14,222 Speaker 2: more information may come out, and in fact we may 495 00:32:14,262 --> 00:32:17,462 Speaker 2: never have a clear idea of his motives, but he 496 00:32:17,542 --> 00:32:22,022 Speaker 2: does seem a lot more like a twenty first century 497 00:32:22,022 --> 00:32:25,902 Speaker 2: school shooter than a Lee Harvey Oswald or a John 498 00:32:25,942 --> 00:32:32,182 Speaker 2: Wilkes Booth, who seemed like they were radicalized politically and 499 00:32:32,582 --> 00:32:37,862 Speaker 2: that's why they made their choices to assassinate people, Whereas 500 00:32:38,022 --> 00:32:41,862 Speaker 2: it just seems like Thomas Matthew Crooks was a isolated 501 00:32:42,622 --> 00:32:47,422 Speaker 2: person who decided to do something horrific. 502 00:32:48,542 --> 00:32:50,702 Speaker 1: Maybe that's why he was able to get as far 503 00:32:50,822 --> 00:32:53,262 Speaker 1: as he did because he wasn't on that security radar, 504 00:32:53,342 --> 00:32:56,582 Speaker 1: he wasn't kind of putting things on the Internet and 505 00:32:56,622 --> 00:32:58,902 Speaker 1: saying I hate Trump, I'm going to kill Trump. Because 506 00:32:59,302 --> 00:33:02,022 Speaker 1: his actions were very premeditated. Can you talk us through 507 00:33:02,262 --> 00:33:05,382 Speaker 1: his movements in the days before the shooting. 508 00:33:05,582 --> 00:33:12,782 Speaker 2: So he had been assembling improvised explosive devices at his home. 509 00:33:13,462 --> 00:33:17,702 Speaker 2: The police and the FBI aren't entirely sure what the 510 00:33:17,742 --> 00:33:21,702 Speaker 2: purpose of that was. But on the day of the shooting, 511 00:33:21,782 --> 00:33:26,302 Speaker 2: there were improvised explosive devices in his car. They're not 512 00:33:26,382 --> 00:33:29,062 Speaker 2: quite sure whether potentially he wanted to use that to 513 00:33:29,102 --> 00:33:32,862 Speaker 2: create a distraction while the shooting was underway, or created 514 00:33:32,862 --> 00:33:36,262 Speaker 2: a distraction so he could escape, or something like that. 515 00:33:36,902 --> 00:33:40,142 Speaker 2: They're not sure what the purpose of those IEDs was, 516 00:33:41,062 --> 00:33:43,902 Speaker 2: but the day before the shooting, On so Friday, the 517 00:33:43,942 --> 00:33:48,542 Speaker 2: twelfth of July, he went to his shooting club where 518 00:33:48,582 --> 00:33:52,982 Speaker 2: he practiced shooting. On Saturday, the day of the shooting, 519 00:33:53,502 --> 00:33:56,022 Speaker 2: he went to a gun shop five minutes from his 520 00:33:56,102 --> 00:34:01,142 Speaker 2: house bought fifty rounds of ammunition for an AR fifteen 521 00:34:01,182 --> 00:34:04,902 Speaker 2: style rifle. Then he went to home Depot, which is 522 00:34:05,222 --> 00:34:09,702 Speaker 2: their equivalent of Bunnings, to buy a one point five 523 00:34:09,782 --> 00:34:15,022 Speaker 2: meter high metal ladder, and then drove to the site 524 00:34:15,062 --> 00:34:21,822 Speaker 2: carrying in his Iende Sinata, the gun, two IEDs and 525 00:34:22,062 --> 00:34:26,742 Speaker 2: apparently a bulletproof vest and three fully loaded bullet magazines. 526 00:34:27,742 --> 00:34:30,662 Speaker 2: So he's traveled to the site obviously with a plan 527 00:34:30,742 --> 00:34:32,502 Speaker 2: to get up on a roof. You know, he's got 528 00:34:32,502 --> 00:34:35,102 Speaker 2: a ladder. It's actually unclear about whether or not he 529 00:34:35,142 --> 00:34:37,382 Speaker 2: actually used the ladder. He may have sort of scrambled 530 00:34:37,422 --> 00:34:39,382 Speaker 2: up an air conditioning unit in order to get onto 531 00:34:39,382 --> 00:34:43,062 Speaker 2: the roof. But at the site, it's also been reported 532 00:34:43,062 --> 00:34:46,822 Speaker 2: that he had used a drone to fly over the 533 00:34:46,862 --> 00:34:49,942 Speaker 2: site just to get a clearer idea of the setup 534 00:34:49,982 --> 00:34:53,382 Speaker 2: and the situation. So that's where he was when he 535 00:34:53,782 --> 00:34:55,862 Speaker 2: was arriving, and that's the situation that he was in. 536 00:34:56,462 --> 00:34:59,142 Speaker 2: And then as he got there, he was sort of, 537 00:34:59,182 --> 00:35:02,022 Speaker 2: as I said, skulking around, looking at things, checking things 538 00:35:02,062 --> 00:35:05,582 Speaker 2: out through his rangefinder, and then at some point he 539 00:35:05,862 --> 00:35:08,302 Speaker 2: made his move to climb up onto the roof. It 540 00:35:08,342 --> 00:35:09,942 Speaker 2: seems like he may have made his move to climb 541 00:35:09,982 --> 00:35:12,422 Speaker 2: up on the roof before Trump arrived, which is an 542 00:35:12,422 --> 00:35:16,942 Speaker 2: interesting quirk. I mean, being on the roof makes you 543 00:35:16,982 --> 00:35:20,702 Speaker 2: obviously more visible and more likely to be seen by authorities, 544 00:35:21,582 --> 00:35:25,022 Speaker 2: and getting up on the roof early is an odd choice. 545 00:35:25,262 --> 00:35:28,542 Speaker 2: But yes, apparently before Donald Trump took the stage, before 546 00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:32,222 Speaker 2: he arrived in his limo, he climbed up on the roof, 547 00:35:32,902 --> 00:35:35,102 Speaker 2: and while he was on the roof, obviously he was 548 00:35:35,142 --> 00:35:40,422 Speaker 2: seen by law enforcement authorities, he was seen by rally goers. 549 00:35:40,942 --> 00:35:44,822 Speaker 2: He got into position, and as Donald Trump was speaking 550 00:35:45,062 --> 00:35:50,222 Speaker 2: and looking at that chart, he fired three shots. The 551 00:35:50,262 --> 00:35:55,102 Speaker 2: Secret Service took eleven seconds after his first shot before 552 00:35:55,262 --> 00:35:59,142 Speaker 2: they were able to spot him, and it took fifteen 553 00:35:59,142 --> 00:36:03,422 Speaker 2: seconds for the Secret Service counts snipers to take him out. 554 00:36:04,462 --> 00:36:07,542 Speaker 2: So the whole thing took twenty six seconds from him 555 00:36:07,582 --> 00:36:10,382 Speaker 2: firing his first shot to him being killed by the Secrets. 556 00:36:11,582 --> 00:36:13,462 Speaker 1: Have we heard from his family. 557 00:36:13,942 --> 00:36:16,262 Speaker 2: Not a lot. Neighbors say that they were a quiet 558 00:36:16,302 --> 00:36:20,502 Speaker 2: family that kept themselves though it seemed extremely confused about 559 00:36:20,782 --> 00:36:23,662 Speaker 2: what was going on on the day. But they are 560 00:36:23,662 --> 00:36:27,782 Speaker 2: reportedly fully cooperating with investigators and authorities to try and 561 00:36:27,782 --> 00:36:32,062 Speaker 2: figure out exactly what happened and why their son did this. 562 00:36:33,262 --> 00:36:37,382 Speaker 1: How has this If it has affected Trump's campaign, it 563 00:36:37,382 --> 00:36:39,462 Speaker 1: seems to have benefited him more than anything. 564 00:36:40,262 --> 00:36:42,422 Speaker 2: It's one of those situations that but perhaps in a 565 00:36:42,422 --> 00:36:46,422 Speaker 2: normal campaign this would be more measurable, But since Trump 566 00:36:46,502 --> 00:36:50,822 Speaker 2: was shot, so much has happened and so many other 567 00:36:50,902 --> 00:36:55,102 Speaker 2: things have changed about the way the campaign has been 568 00:36:55,142 --> 00:36:58,742 Speaker 2: going that it's difficult to sort of drill down and 569 00:36:58,822 --> 00:37:03,222 Speaker 2: isolate what the effect of this shooting will be on voters, 570 00:37:03,702 --> 00:37:06,062 Speaker 2: whether this is going to add a lot of voters 571 00:37:06,102 --> 00:37:08,982 Speaker 2: to him, because remember, obviously a lot of his own 572 00:37:08,982 --> 00:37:13,102 Speaker 2: supporters think that the whole situation is extremely incredible and 573 00:37:13,182 --> 00:37:17,142 Speaker 2: it's wonderful that he was not killed, and many of 574 00:37:17,222 --> 00:37:20,902 Speaker 2: his supporters saying that he was spared by God and 575 00:37:20,942 --> 00:37:24,342 Speaker 2: this is a sign that God wants Donald Trump to 576 00:37:24,582 --> 00:37:28,422 Speaker 2: return to the presidency, and many other supporters just think 577 00:37:28,462 --> 00:37:31,582 Speaker 2: that the photo of him with his fist in the air, 578 00:37:31,702 --> 00:37:34,982 Speaker 2: blood on him, with the Secret Service around him looks 579 00:37:35,022 --> 00:37:38,942 Speaker 2: really badass and really cool. But you can't vote for 580 00:37:39,022 --> 00:37:41,142 Speaker 2: him twice. The people who were already going to vote 581 00:37:41,142 --> 00:37:44,662 Speaker 2: for him can't vote harder. The question is whether this 582 00:37:44,742 --> 00:37:47,862 Speaker 2: event will convince people who weren't going to vote for 583 00:37:47,942 --> 00:37:50,182 Speaker 2: him to vote for him. And I don't know that 584 00:37:50,302 --> 00:37:52,702 Speaker 2: it's very clear exactly what effect it's going to have 585 00:37:53,342 --> 00:37:59,342 Speaker 2: on undecided voters, But I would have thought that a 586 00:37:59,542 --> 00:38:03,462 Speaker 2: change in the Democratic candidate is going to have a 587 00:38:03,742 --> 00:38:07,622 Speaker 2: much larger effect on the race than the shooting of 588 00:38:07,622 --> 00:38:10,302 Speaker 2: Donald Trump that took place on the thirteenth of July. 589 00:38:11,662 --> 00:38:13,782 Speaker 1: Yes, obviously the US election is shaping up to be 590 00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:16,382 Speaker 1: a very, very big news event at the moment Biden 591 00:38:16,582 --> 00:38:20,862 Speaker 1: has stepped down. But it does strike me with Trump 592 00:38:21,102 --> 00:38:23,742 Speaker 1: that he is now able to say he is a victim, 593 00:38:24,622 --> 00:38:27,262 Speaker 1: and he's always kind of said things like they're out 594 00:38:27,302 --> 00:38:29,982 Speaker 1: to get me, and now he kind of has a 595 00:38:29,982 --> 00:38:30,862 Speaker 1: bit of proof of that. 596 00:38:31,782 --> 00:38:35,182 Speaker 2: Well, he who was already doing that. He's already a 597 00:38:35,222 --> 00:38:39,422 Speaker 2: person who has multiple criminal investigations into him, which he says, 598 00:38:40,342 --> 00:38:44,062 Speaker 2: which hunts. He has already been found guilty by a 599 00:38:44,182 --> 00:38:48,222 Speaker 2: judge of criminal offenses. He has been ordered by a 600 00:38:48,222 --> 00:38:52,782 Speaker 2: different judge to pay half a billion dollars in fines 601 00:38:53,502 --> 00:38:57,942 Speaker 2: for various other things. He's already a person who has 602 00:38:57,982 --> 00:39:02,862 Speaker 2: a strong case to make to his supporters, who is 603 00:39:02,902 --> 00:39:05,942 Speaker 2: able to argue that he's being victimized. One of his 604 00:39:06,102 --> 00:39:07,662 Speaker 2: things that he likes to say is, you know they're 605 00:39:07,702 --> 00:39:10,982 Speaker 2: coming for you when I'm just standing in the way. Obviously, 606 00:39:11,022 --> 00:39:13,302 Speaker 2: you would be potentially bolstered by the fact that he 607 00:39:13,422 --> 00:39:18,862 Speaker 2: was fired upon, but I don't know that he needed 608 00:39:18,942 --> 00:39:23,942 Speaker 2: this to bolster that necessarily. It obviously created a bit 609 00:39:23,942 --> 00:39:27,222 Speaker 2: of excitement and energy in his campaign. The Republican National 610 00:39:27,262 --> 00:39:31,222 Speaker 2: Convention was by all accounts, a pretty successful event. But 611 00:39:32,142 --> 00:39:34,742 Speaker 2: now that the dice have been thrown in the air, 612 00:39:34,862 --> 00:39:40,262 Speaker 2: with the Democrats reshuffling changing their candidate, Donald Trump has 613 00:39:40,302 --> 00:39:41,742 Speaker 2: expressed a lot of anger about the fact that he 614 00:39:41,782 --> 00:39:45,022 Speaker 2: doesn't get to run against Joe Biden anymore. It requires 615 00:39:45,022 --> 00:39:48,782 Speaker 2: a massive shift in campaign strategy. But I just think 616 00:39:48,822 --> 00:39:51,702 Speaker 2: that's going to have a much larger effect on the 617 00:39:51,742 --> 00:39:53,302 Speaker 2: campaign than the shooting. 618 00:39:54,302 --> 00:39:56,782 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that there's a lot of tensions though, 619 00:39:56,822 --> 00:39:58,902 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of anger on both sides in 620 00:39:58,942 --> 00:40:04,422 Speaker 1: American politics. Security will be bolstered after this but you'd 621 00:40:04,422 --> 00:40:06,902 Speaker 1: hope so. But do you think that this is a 622 00:40:06,942 --> 00:40:10,222 Speaker 1: sign of more violence to potentially come or is there 623 00:40:10,222 --> 00:40:11,902 Speaker 1: the potential for copycats? 624 00:40:12,462 --> 00:40:14,462 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, yeah, I think there is. It's just 625 00:40:15,062 --> 00:40:19,742 Speaker 2: you'd hope that the Secret Service will just increase the 626 00:40:20,182 --> 00:40:26,182 Speaker 2: perimeter that they are defending protectees from to a significantly 627 00:40:26,262 --> 00:40:28,942 Speaker 2: larger radius. I think that's the best that they can do. 628 00:40:29,782 --> 00:40:32,062 Speaker 2: You know, there's so much criticism at the moment that 629 00:40:32,342 --> 00:40:36,382 Speaker 2: the building that Thomas Crooks fired from should have been 630 00:40:36,422 --> 00:40:40,462 Speaker 2: inside the secure zone, but it wasn't, so the Secret 631 00:40:40,462 --> 00:40:45,302 Speaker 2: Service weren't protecting that building specifically. So you would certainly 632 00:40:45,382 --> 00:40:48,262 Speaker 2: hope that the perimeter will be increased and that protection 633 00:40:48,382 --> 00:40:53,662 Speaker 2: around the candidates will be much more secure than before. 634 00:40:54,702 --> 00:40:58,582 Speaker 2: The interesting thing is, previously, with Joe Biden being the candidate, 635 00:40:58,702 --> 00:41:01,582 Speaker 2: Joe Biden wasn't actually doing all that many public events. 636 00:41:01,582 --> 00:41:04,262 Speaker 2: He wasn't out in public all that much, and so 637 00:41:04,462 --> 00:41:08,702 Speaker 2: he wasn't particularly difficult for the Secret Service to protect 638 00:41:08,742 --> 00:41:11,102 Speaker 2: because he just wasn't leaving the White House all that often, 639 00:41:11,462 --> 00:41:14,022 Speaker 2: whereas Kamala Harris doesn't have to be at the White 640 00:41:14,022 --> 00:41:19,302 Speaker 2: House and will potentially have the energy to be out 641 00:41:19,342 --> 00:41:23,822 Speaker 2: there constantly doing a huge volume of events, none of 642 00:41:23,862 --> 00:41:27,782 Speaker 2: which will have been planned beforehand. So it's going to 643 00:41:27,822 --> 00:41:32,702 Speaker 2: be a massive shift in the energy and the intensity 644 00:41:32,862 --> 00:41:37,542 Speaker 2: of the presidential election campaign between now and November fifth. 645 00:41:38,062 --> 00:41:40,742 Speaker 2: So it's going to be a really big job for 646 00:41:40,782 --> 00:41:44,462 Speaker 2: the Secret Service. They absolutely cannot afford any other slip ups, 647 00:41:45,182 --> 00:41:47,382 Speaker 2: and this was a really big slip up, and there's 648 00:41:47,582 --> 00:41:51,102 Speaker 2: significant calls for resignations of firings the Secret Service. It's 649 00:41:51,182 --> 00:41:55,142 Speaker 2: kind of surprising that that hasn't happened already because you 650 00:41:55,182 --> 00:41:58,062 Speaker 2: could argue it was these people's faults or those people's 651 00:41:58,102 --> 00:42:00,742 Speaker 2: faults or whatever it was. But I mean, this is 652 00:42:00,822 --> 00:42:05,102 Speaker 2: obviously a catastrophic failure by the Secret Service, and they 653 00:42:05,222 --> 00:42:08,542 Speaker 2: are lucky that Donald Trump was not killed. 654 00:42:13,742 --> 00:42:16,142 Speaker 1: Thanks to Matt for assisting us to tell this story. 655 00:42:16,782 --> 00:42:20,142 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mumma mea podcast hosted and 656 00:42:20,182 --> 00:42:23,822 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Baff with audio design by Scott Stronik. 657 00:42:24,262 --> 00:42:28,262 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening. 658 00:42:28,582 --> 00:42:31,462 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.