1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,085 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Maya podcast. 2 00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:18,525 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,765 --> 00:00:21,885 Speaker 1: I didn't know my real name or his real name 5 00:00:22,045 --> 00:00:25,885 Speaker 1: until after that point. So when I was known and 6 00:00:25,965 --> 00:00:28,765 Speaker 1: the Scott Into I turned up on the doorstep. A 7 00:00:28,805 --> 00:00:30,845 Speaker 1: week or so later, a mom took us aside and 8 00:00:30,885 --> 00:00:33,805 Speaker 1: told us that dad had committed a crime when we 9 00:00:33,805 --> 00:00:36,525 Speaker 1: were young, and he was in trouble with the law 10 00:00:36,925 --> 00:00:39,765 Speaker 1: and the police were looking for him, and he had 11 00:00:39,805 --> 00:00:42,325 Speaker 1: gone into hiding. That this had been going on for 12 00:00:42,365 --> 00:00:47,885 Speaker 1: our whole lives. 13 00:00:51,405 --> 00:00:55,165 Speaker 3: From Mama Maya, you're listening to no filter. I'm Kate Langbrook, 14 00:00:55,725 --> 00:00:58,325 Speaker 3: and as far as I know, I've always been Kate 15 00:00:58,365 --> 00:01:00,685 Speaker 3: lane Brook. In fact, I was Catherine Langbrook, but I 16 00:01:00,765 --> 00:01:06,085 Speaker 3: knew that was me. Tyler Weatherall had to rediscover who 17 00:01:06,205 --> 00:01:11,005 Speaker 3: her parents were countless times, and it makes you think, 18 00:01:11,085 --> 00:01:13,125 Speaker 3: how much do you really know about your parents when 19 00:01:13,125 --> 00:01:16,725 Speaker 3: you're a kid. If you're fortunate, you get to take 20 00:01:16,725 --> 00:01:20,125 Speaker 3: that for granted that their mom and dad do. They 21 00:01:20,165 --> 00:01:22,845 Speaker 3: just head off to work, maybe in a suit, and 22 00:01:22,885 --> 00:01:25,805 Speaker 3: your main concern is what's on the dinner table that night. 23 00:01:27,085 --> 00:01:31,565 Speaker 3: For Tyler things were a little different. She was just 24 00:01:31,725 --> 00:01:35,165 Speaker 3: nine years old when she began to realize that her 25 00:01:35,245 --> 00:01:40,045 Speaker 3: dad didn't have a conventional job. In fact, he didn't 26 00:01:40,045 --> 00:01:43,925 Speaker 3: really have a job at all, unless you consider running 27 00:01:43,925 --> 00:01:48,125 Speaker 3: from the law as a fugitive a job. It wasn't 28 00:01:48,205 --> 00:01:51,485 Speaker 3: until Tyler was an adult and after the law had 29 00:01:51,525 --> 00:01:54,405 Speaker 3: caught up with her dad, that she began to make 30 00:01:54,485 --> 00:01:58,485 Speaker 3: sense of her childhood and understand who her father had 31 00:01:58,565 --> 00:02:04,005 Speaker 3: been all along. It is a wild story, And as 32 00:02:04,045 --> 00:02:07,845 Speaker 3: I read her memoir No Way Home, all I kept 33 00:02:07,845 --> 00:02:08,645 Speaker 3: thinking was. 34 00:02:10,565 --> 00:02:16,205 Speaker 2: This sounds like a movie script. Tyler weatherall, Yes, this 35 00:02:16,365 --> 00:02:17,125 Speaker 2: has been said. 36 00:02:17,645 --> 00:02:20,685 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe sometimes that it all was true. 37 00:02:20,685 --> 00:02:23,445 Speaker 3: And that it happened to you in your life and 38 00:02:23,805 --> 00:02:26,445 Speaker 3: what happened to you or the life that you lived 39 00:02:27,125 --> 00:02:33,445 Speaker 3: started really even from before you were born. Yes, definitely, 40 00:02:34,005 --> 00:02:36,725 Speaker 3: and with a huge cast, well not a huge cast, 41 00:02:36,805 --> 00:02:40,605 Speaker 3: but a huge cast of characters because they assumed a 42 00:02:40,605 --> 00:02:42,645 Speaker 3: lot of different identities. 43 00:02:42,005 --> 00:02:49,565 Speaker 2: And different names. But the patriarch was your dad. Can 44 00:02:49,605 --> 00:02:52,725 Speaker 2: you talk us through first of all, because I'm very 45 00:02:52,765 --> 00:02:53,405 Speaker 2: well aware that. 46 00:02:53,365 --> 00:02:57,125 Speaker 3: In your book, your memoir Life on the Run with 47 00:02:57,205 --> 00:03:00,885 Speaker 3: a Fugitive Dad, you kind of play with the timeline 48 00:03:00,925 --> 00:03:05,005 Speaker 3: of it, what you realized through the prism of being 49 00:03:05,045 --> 00:03:08,365 Speaker 3: a young child versus what you realized in adulthood and 50 00:03:08,405 --> 00:03:12,165 Speaker 3: in retrospect playing out. But for the purpose of our listeners, 51 00:03:12,165 --> 00:03:13,805 Speaker 3: we're going to try and tell her in a more 52 00:03:13,845 --> 00:03:19,445 Speaker 3: sort of linear sense. Can you introduce me and our 53 00:03:19,525 --> 00:03:25,205 Speaker 3: listeners to you and your family members. 54 00:03:25,685 --> 00:03:30,245 Speaker 1: So there's five of us. My mom and my dad 55 00:03:30,525 --> 00:03:35,285 Speaker 1: actually met in the sixties, fell in love, lost touch 56 00:03:35,325 --> 00:03:37,485 Speaker 1: with each other, then met up again in the late 57 00:03:37,525 --> 00:03:41,045 Speaker 1: seventies and got back together. So it was a lifelong 58 00:03:41,085 --> 00:03:44,645 Speaker 1: love story for both of them. My eldest brother, Evan, 59 00:03:44,925 --> 00:03:48,205 Speaker 1: he is seven years older than me. He actually has 60 00:03:48,245 --> 00:03:52,605 Speaker 1: a different dad, my mom's second marriage. And then there 61 00:03:52,765 --> 00:03:55,485 Speaker 1: is my middle sister, Caitlin, who is two and a 62 00:03:55,525 --> 00:03:57,045 Speaker 1: half years older than me and me and her have 63 00:03:57,125 --> 00:04:00,045 Speaker 1: the same dad. And then me, I'm the baby of 64 00:04:00,125 --> 00:04:00,645 Speaker 1: the family. 65 00:04:01,285 --> 00:04:07,165 Speaker 3: Your mom's name Sarah Sarah, So they had this, i 66 00:04:07,205 --> 00:04:12,205 Speaker 3: mean also very sweeting love story. Your mom was very young, 67 00:04:12,325 --> 00:04:15,045 Speaker 3: she was very beautiful, She was a model. 68 00:04:15,365 --> 00:04:17,845 Speaker 1: Her life story in of itself could have been an 69 00:04:18,045 --> 00:04:21,485 Speaker 1: entire book, or in fact several. Her story is incredible. 70 00:04:22,205 --> 00:04:25,765 Speaker 1: She ran away from home at sixteen years old and 71 00:04:25,885 --> 00:04:28,885 Speaker 1: married a forty year old film director her first marriage, 72 00:04:29,045 --> 00:04:31,765 Speaker 1: who'd met her walking down the Chelsea Road and fallen 73 00:04:31,845 --> 00:04:34,325 Speaker 1: for her. He realized that she was pretty much no 74 00:04:34,405 --> 00:04:36,805 Speaker 1: good as a wife and wasn't really up to doing anner, 75 00:04:38,125 --> 00:04:40,565 Speaker 1: so he sent her out with a portfolio photos that 76 00:04:40,565 --> 00:04:44,605 Speaker 1: he had taken and had sort of started her modeling career, 77 00:04:44,885 --> 00:04:46,925 Speaker 1: which took her to Paris, and then it took her 78 00:04:46,965 --> 00:04:50,125 Speaker 1: to New York. And in New York, that's where she 79 00:04:50,165 --> 00:04:52,605 Speaker 1: met my dad while she was still with her first husband, 80 00:04:52,885 --> 00:04:55,845 Speaker 1: and three days later she decided he was way more 81 00:04:55,845 --> 00:04:59,725 Speaker 1: fun and much more exciting and walked out on her 82 00:04:59,725 --> 00:05:03,085 Speaker 1: first husband and moved in with my dad, and that's 83 00:05:03,125 --> 00:05:09,845 Speaker 1: where their story began. She is a deeply independent, wildly intelligent, 84 00:05:10,765 --> 00:05:16,645 Speaker 1: brilliant and funny, totally original and totally unpredictable. You know. 85 00:05:17,045 --> 00:05:19,285 Speaker 1: She would come out with wonderful wittessisms all the time, 86 00:05:19,325 --> 00:05:21,965 Speaker 1: and she's one of these delightful people that I think 87 00:05:22,125 --> 00:05:24,365 Speaker 1: when she walks into a room, she's that person that 88 00:05:24,405 --> 00:05:27,125 Speaker 1: everyone notices, and she has always been that way. So 89 00:05:27,845 --> 00:05:30,725 Speaker 1: she was that way, you know, until the very end, 90 00:05:31,085 --> 00:05:33,885 Speaker 1: and I think that was what my dad felt for 91 00:05:34,045 --> 00:05:37,685 Speaker 1: when she walked into his apartment as a seventeen eighteen 92 00:05:37,765 --> 00:05:38,125 Speaker 1: year old. 93 00:05:38,645 --> 00:05:43,805 Speaker 2: So when Sarah met beIN, what was been doing at 94 00:05:43,805 --> 00:05:44,405 Speaker 2: that time. 95 00:05:44,605 --> 00:05:48,285 Speaker 1: So my dad was born in New York and actually 96 00:05:48,285 --> 00:05:54,365 Speaker 1: had a very wholesome middle class upbringing and a second 97 00:05:54,405 --> 00:05:57,685 Speaker 1: generation Jewish family. I went to college and he was 98 00:05:57,725 --> 00:06:00,765 Speaker 1: working on Wall Street. I think at the time he 99 00:06:00,845 --> 00:06:03,485 Speaker 1: might have been with Ella Frostchild. So his career was 100 00:06:03,605 --> 00:06:09,005 Speaker 1: very much starting as a person in finance, and then 101 00:06:10,085 --> 00:06:13,485 Speaker 1: he would pack up, weigh his suit, put in his 102 00:06:13,605 --> 00:06:16,365 Speaker 1: locker at work, put on a cape and a pair 103 00:06:16,365 --> 00:06:19,005 Speaker 1: of cowboy boots, and go out nine party. 104 00:06:19,965 --> 00:06:22,325 Speaker 3: Okay, So that was very much I guess that wild 105 00:06:22,525 --> 00:06:23,645 Speaker 3: kind of Wall straight. 106 00:06:24,765 --> 00:06:26,485 Speaker 2: I mean, it could have been a white pick at. 107 00:06:26,325 --> 00:06:29,045 Speaker 3: Fence, but these were people who were kind of not 108 00:06:29,285 --> 00:06:30,525 Speaker 3: normies at heart. 109 00:06:31,045 --> 00:06:34,125 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think my dad was necessarily representative 110 00:06:34,165 --> 00:06:38,325 Speaker 1: of his Wall Street community he had. You know, he 111 00:06:38,445 --> 00:06:42,685 Speaker 1: is a deep lover of pleasure. He's a hedonist at heart, 112 00:06:43,125 --> 00:06:47,445 Speaker 1: a lover of people. I think there was two versions 113 00:06:47,485 --> 00:06:52,005 Speaker 1: of him. There was a version that found excitement on 114 00:06:52,045 --> 00:06:55,205 Speaker 1: Wall Street, which is really just a form of sort 115 00:06:55,245 --> 00:06:58,885 Speaker 1: of gambling, which he also loved. And then at night 116 00:06:58,925 --> 00:07:01,165 Speaker 1: he had this alternative life where he was hanging out 117 00:07:01,165 --> 00:07:03,805 Speaker 1: with artists and musicians, and I think he was always 118 00:07:03,925 --> 00:07:06,285 Speaker 1: drawn to that something, you know, he and I share, 119 00:07:06,725 --> 00:07:09,405 Speaker 1: Like one of his early gigs before he was in 120 00:07:09,445 --> 00:07:11,885 Speaker 1: the drug business, was he to have Brian Epstein at 121 00:07:11,885 --> 00:07:14,965 Speaker 1: a party, and Brian had taken a shine to him 122 00:07:15,085 --> 00:07:18,525 Speaker 1: and hired him to roll joints for the Beatles. So 123 00:07:18,725 --> 00:07:22,205 Speaker 1: when I did really think was rolling joints, packing them 124 00:07:22,245 --> 00:07:24,885 Speaker 1: in a cigarette packet, giving them to Brian Epstein and saying, 125 00:07:25,205 --> 00:07:27,005 Speaker 1: you know, these were going to the Beatles. So you know, 126 00:07:27,085 --> 00:07:29,885 Speaker 1: he was having a pretty wild time. And that was 127 00:07:29,925 --> 00:07:33,805 Speaker 1: when he was still at college, so he was moving 128 00:07:33,845 --> 00:07:36,765 Speaker 1: in these worlds, and as was my mum when she 129 00:07:37,165 --> 00:07:39,245 Speaker 1: as a model in the city, So they were both 130 00:07:39,365 --> 00:07:42,605 Speaker 1: kind of part of a very interesting scene, you know. 131 00:07:42,645 --> 00:07:45,925 Speaker 1: She'd even as after the book was finished, I'd hear 132 00:07:45,965 --> 00:07:48,405 Speaker 1: stories that she'd tell me that I didn't know at 133 00:07:48,445 --> 00:07:50,125 Speaker 1: the time when I was writing this, and she told 134 00:07:50,165 --> 00:07:52,725 Speaker 1: me that one time she set fire to her apartment 135 00:07:52,885 --> 00:07:54,965 Speaker 1: on the Apprai side and had nowhere to go, so 136 00:07:55,005 --> 00:07:57,805 Speaker 1: she moved into the Chelsea Hotel, was moving down with 137 00:07:57,845 --> 00:08:00,525 Speaker 1: that whole set there, you know, And I had no 138 00:08:00,605 --> 00:08:02,285 Speaker 1: idea she'd live there, right. 139 00:08:02,925 --> 00:08:05,125 Speaker 2: How did the fire start? By the way, do we 140 00:08:05,205 --> 00:08:07,685 Speaker 2: know was it candles? Was it a joint? 141 00:08:08,525 --> 00:08:11,285 Speaker 1: I think it was AND's burning in the classic. 142 00:08:11,845 --> 00:08:15,285 Speaker 3: So we know that your dad obviously when you were 143 00:08:15,325 --> 00:08:18,845 Speaker 3: saying he was, he was a bon vivant. Basically, he's 144 00:08:18,885 --> 00:08:20,445 Speaker 3: the sort of man that you could fall in love 145 00:08:20,485 --> 00:08:22,925 Speaker 3: with after three dates and up end your whole life. 146 00:08:23,325 --> 00:08:27,965 Speaker 1: Definitely. I think in some ways Mum was also the 147 00:08:28,005 --> 00:08:31,045 Speaker 1: person who would say yes to you know, someone opens 148 00:08:31,045 --> 00:08:32,645 Speaker 1: the door and there's an interesting room and side and 149 00:08:32,725 --> 00:08:35,285 Speaker 1: she's going to walk into it if it amuses her, 150 00:08:35,645 --> 00:08:37,965 Speaker 1: and I think they fell in love. It was really 151 00:08:38,205 --> 00:08:41,205 Speaker 1: for both of them their first major of love. Mum's 152 00:08:41,245 --> 00:08:43,565 Speaker 1: first husband had really been to escape what was for 153 00:08:43,645 --> 00:08:46,965 Speaker 1: her quite a difficult childhood, and she saw him as 154 00:08:46,965 --> 00:08:49,485 Speaker 1: a way out. And then when she met Dad, I 155 00:08:49,525 --> 00:08:51,805 Speaker 1: think the two of them fell hard for each other 156 00:08:52,085 --> 00:08:54,685 Speaker 1: and by the sounds of it, were having the times 157 00:08:54,725 --> 00:08:59,845 Speaker 1: of their lives, well, early sixties, very wild and fun. 158 00:09:00,285 --> 00:09:03,285 Speaker 3: I want to read this from an essay that you wrote. 159 00:09:04,845 --> 00:09:07,045 Speaker 3: I would later learn that when I first arrived in 160 00:09:07,085 --> 00:09:10,085 Speaker 3: England in nineteen eighty seven as a three year old girl. 161 00:09:11,325 --> 00:09:15,805 Speaker 3: My family was on the run from the FBI. Dad's 162 00:09:15,925 --> 00:09:21,045 Speaker 3: organization had been charged with smuggling one hundred tons of 163 00:09:21,125 --> 00:09:24,805 Speaker 3: marijuana worth nearly half a billion dollars from Thailand into 164 00:09:24,805 --> 00:09:28,245 Speaker 3: the US in the late seventies and early eighties. The 165 00:09:28,285 --> 00:09:32,285 Speaker 3: investigation started before I was born. By the time I 166 00:09:32,445 --> 00:09:36,125 Speaker 3: was one, there was a surveillance team at the end 167 00:09:36,125 --> 00:09:41,965 Speaker 3: of our driveway. So your dad went from rolling joints 168 00:09:41,965 --> 00:09:47,365 Speaker 3: for the beatles to basically running is that a consortium? 169 00:09:48,005 --> 00:09:49,845 Speaker 2: Was he a drug overlord? 170 00:09:50,005 --> 00:09:50,085 Speaker 1: Like? 171 00:09:52,125 --> 00:09:55,485 Speaker 3: What was he in the scheme of things that led 172 00:09:55,565 --> 00:09:59,725 Speaker 3: the FBI to be survailing him and the whole family. 173 00:09:59,965 --> 00:10:03,725 Speaker 1: Well, the official charges continued criminal enterprise a CCEE or 174 00:10:03,965 --> 00:10:08,525 Speaker 1: the al capone charge. In their eyes, he was a kingpin. 175 00:10:10,245 --> 00:10:12,765 Speaker 1: In his eyes, he was an outlaw. 176 00:10:13,245 --> 00:10:16,445 Speaker 2: R tons one hundred tons of outlaw. 177 00:10:18,045 --> 00:10:21,085 Speaker 1: Yeah, he got really carried away. I think it's easy 178 00:10:21,165 --> 00:10:28,245 Speaker 1: to say that things grew very quickly, and every time 179 00:10:28,365 --> 00:10:32,405 Speaker 1: he got away with it, it cemented in him the 180 00:10:32,525 --> 00:10:36,125 Speaker 1: belief that he could get away with it and he 181 00:10:36,205 --> 00:10:38,525 Speaker 1: was never going to get caught. And I think the 182 00:10:38,685 --> 00:10:42,725 Speaker 1: sense of being impervious to harm and having luck on 183 00:10:42,765 --> 00:10:48,365 Speaker 1: your side, and the kind of the cheek of it, 184 00:10:48,445 --> 00:10:54,245 Speaker 1: almost the audacity that the hoobris is immense, but incrementally 185 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:57,125 Speaker 1: over time from those first joints rolled for the Beatles 186 00:10:57,165 --> 00:11:02,965 Speaker 1: to that point with the kingping charge. Because he hadn't 187 00:11:03,005 --> 00:11:07,085 Speaker 1: got in trouble until the very last deal, or any 188 00:11:07,125 --> 00:11:08,925 Speaker 1: trouble that had come he'd been able to deal with 189 00:11:09,685 --> 00:11:13,845 Speaker 1: through his connections or through money. I think he felt 190 00:11:13,885 --> 00:11:18,445 Speaker 1: like nothing could, nothing could bring him down, and in 191 00:11:18,485 --> 00:11:21,245 Speaker 1: his eyes, no one was getting hurt. In his eyes, 192 00:11:21,245 --> 00:11:24,005 Speaker 1: it was a victimless crime. It was part everyone was 193 00:11:24,045 --> 00:11:29,045 Speaker 1: smoking it and he was getting him and his friends 194 00:11:29,165 --> 00:11:29,725 Speaker 1: very rich. 195 00:11:31,205 --> 00:11:33,725 Speaker 2: Well, I had to get it from some way, exactly. 196 00:11:35,125 --> 00:11:37,365 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think part, you know, when he was 197 00:11:37,365 --> 00:11:40,325 Speaker 1: starting out in the business, it was under Jimmy Carter. 198 00:11:40,805 --> 00:11:43,125 Speaker 1: It was the sixties, people rolling joints and smoking them 199 00:11:43,125 --> 00:11:45,525 Speaker 1: in the cinema, walking down the streets. It was a 200 00:11:45,645 --> 00:11:50,845 Speaker 1: very different environment than what happened under Reagan and what 201 00:11:50,925 --> 00:11:56,045 Speaker 1: happened once it was the eighties. And I think he 202 00:11:56,245 --> 00:12:04,405 Speaker 1: didn't update his you know, his risk analysis. Things had 203 00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:09,125 Speaker 1: changed and we were taking or were enormous at that point, 204 00:12:09,365 --> 00:12:11,765 Speaker 1: and he had a lot to lose at that stage. 205 00:12:11,765 --> 00:12:14,765 Speaker 3: She was a doubt he didn't update his risk analysis, 206 00:12:14,805 --> 00:12:16,605 Speaker 3: but he was hitting his KPIs. 207 00:12:17,005 --> 00:12:19,245 Speaker 2: From the sense of things. 208 00:12:19,765 --> 00:12:22,365 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's fair to say. I think 209 00:12:22,405 --> 00:12:27,085 Speaker 1: maybe he over exceeded his KPIs in fact. Yeah, when 210 00:12:27,125 --> 00:12:29,965 Speaker 1: he started out, Dad would often talk about having a 211 00:12:30,085 --> 00:12:34,845 Speaker 1: very He thought of himself as very risk adverse, which 212 00:12:34,885 --> 00:12:38,925 Speaker 1: is obviously everybody else quite hilarious what he was taking on, 213 00:12:39,365 --> 00:12:43,805 Speaker 1: But for him, he was He approached the drug business 214 00:12:44,285 --> 00:12:47,485 Speaker 1: with the tools he'd learned on Wall Street and felt 215 00:12:47,485 --> 00:12:51,525 Speaker 1: like he was analyzing. He was assessing these risks as 216 00:12:51,525 --> 00:12:53,845 Speaker 1: he was going along and deciding what risks he could take, 217 00:12:54,085 --> 00:12:56,725 Speaker 1: which is why it grew incrementally, because he would be 218 00:12:56,925 --> 00:12:59,205 Speaker 1: looking at it like a business structure of supply and 219 00:12:59,245 --> 00:13:02,925 Speaker 1: demand and risk assessment. He approached it with that mindset, 220 00:13:03,085 --> 00:13:04,845 Speaker 1: which is probably why he was good at it to 221 00:13:04,925 --> 00:13:05,365 Speaker 1: the point. 222 00:13:05,925 --> 00:13:09,605 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you were only a child at that time time, 223 00:13:11,725 --> 00:13:15,765 Speaker 3: At what point in your and very young child, at 224 00:13:15,765 --> 00:13:21,045 Speaker 3: what point did you realize that your dad was in 225 00:13:21,125 --> 00:13:25,485 Speaker 3: trouble with law and when you discovered that and the 226 00:13:25,525 --> 00:13:27,125 Speaker 3: impact that that had on your life. 227 00:13:27,805 --> 00:13:34,245 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea growing up. We just accept 228 00:13:34,845 --> 00:13:38,245 Speaker 1: the world that were given as kids. We don't question, 229 00:13:39,805 --> 00:13:42,005 Speaker 1: we don't start to question, so we're a bit older. 230 00:13:42,085 --> 00:13:46,605 Speaker 1: So as a girl, a young girl when I you know, 231 00:13:46,765 --> 00:13:50,005 Speaker 1: I was born in California, which is where dad got 232 00:13:50,005 --> 00:13:54,205 Speaker 1: in trouble and we went on the run when I 233 00:13:54,365 --> 00:13:58,325 Speaker 1: was eighteen months old, so I was very young. So 234 00:13:59,085 --> 00:14:02,725 Speaker 1: my first memories were in houses in Portugal and then 235 00:14:02,845 --> 00:14:07,805 Speaker 1: France and then the UK, and then my parents separated 236 00:14:07,885 --> 00:14:11,845 Speaker 1: when I was four, so all I had ever known 237 00:14:11,965 --> 00:14:15,405 Speaker 1: was kind of those early years, having a sitinerant existence, 238 00:14:15,725 --> 00:14:19,925 Speaker 1: and then my dad being this exciting, fun guy that 239 00:14:19,965 --> 00:14:24,165 Speaker 1: would take me on holidays in ski trips, and I 240 00:14:24,285 --> 00:14:28,325 Speaker 1: understood there was something unusual about our family. We'd lived 241 00:14:28,365 --> 00:14:31,845 Speaker 1: in by the time I was nine years old, thirteen 242 00:14:31,885 --> 00:14:35,845 Speaker 1: houses in five countries, and I knew that that wasn't normal, 243 00:14:35,885 --> 00:14:38,365 Speaker 1: but I quite enjoyed the ways in which it wasn't normal. 244 00:14:38,405 --> 00:14:40,885 Speaker 1: I would tell people and I could see that they 245 00:14:40,925 --> 00:14:44,045 Speaker 1: found it odd, and I liked that curiosity, that thing 246 00:14:44,085 --> 00:14:47,605 Speaker 1: that made me different. I never really questioned the excuses 247 00:14:47,645 --> 00:14:50,245 Speaker 1: that my parents gave me for why our childhood did 248 00:14:50,245 --> 00:14:53,685 Speaker 1: be in that way. I really had no idea until 249 00:14:54,085 --> 00:14:57,205 Speaker 1: two agents from Scotland Yard turned up when I was 250 00:14:57,685 --> 00:15:00,645 Speaker 1: nine years old. On our doorstep in our house that 251 00:15:00,685 --> 00:15:03,965 Speaker 1: we lived in with mom now in Bradford and Even 252 00:15:04,845 --> 00:15:11,245 Speaker 1: and they turned up one day looking for Dad, and 253 00:15:11,405 --> 00:15:14,605 Speaker 1: Mom didn't tell us straight away. She sent us out 254 00:15:14,925 --> 00:15:17,205 Speaker 1: to go to a neighbor's house, and we ended up 255 00:15:17,245 --> 00:15:19,485 Speaker 1: staying the night at the neighbor's house. And I remember 256 00:15:19,525 --> 00:15:21,765 Speaker 1: my sister and I thinking that that was odd, but 257 00:15:21,925 --> 00:15:24,925 Speaker 1: not really being able to think about why it might 258 00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:27,965 Speaker 1: be odd. Certainly we didn't suspect what was actually happening, 259 00:15:27,965 --> 00:15:29,925 Speaker 1: which is what they brought my mum in for questioning. 260 00:15:30,005 --> 00:15:33,845 Speaker 1: They were looking for Dad, and that was when it 261 00:15:33,845 --> 00:15:37,685 Speaker 1: all started up again. He had us essentially escaped their 262 00:15:37,685 --> 00:15:41,405 Speaker 1: attention from California, gone into false identity. The identity that 263 00:15:41,485 --> 00:15:43,725 Speaker 1: I grew up believing was who he really was. The 264 00:15:43,845 --> 00:15:45,165 Speaker 1: name that I thought was mine. 265 00:15:45,445 --> 00:15:49,045 Speaker 2: What name was that, Tyler Kine, Tyler Kaine. 266 00:15:49,485 --> 00:15:52,765 Speaker 3: You thought your name was Tyler Kane, So you thought 267 00:15:52,805 --> 00:15:54,245 Speaker 3: your dad's name was Kine. 268 00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:59,765 Speaker 1: Yes, I didn't know my real name or his real 269 00:15:59,845 --> 00:16:03,605 Speaker 1: name until after that point. So when I was nine 270 00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:06,365 Speaker 1: and this got into her turned up on the doorstep 271 00:16:06,925 --> 00:16:08,925 Speaker 1: a week or so later, her mom took us aside 272 00:16:08,925 --> 00:16:11,885 Speaker 1: and told us that Dad had committed a crime when 273 00:16:11,885 --> 00:16:14,405 Speaker 1: we were young, and he was in trouble with the 274 00:16:14,485 --> 00:16:17,725 Speaker 1: law and the police were looking for him, and he 275 00:16:17,805 --> 00:16:20,525 Speaker 1: had gone into hiding. That this had been going on 276 00:16:20,565 --> 00:16:22,725 Speaker 1: for our whole lives, and the crime he committed it 277 00:16:22,765 --> 00:16:24,805 Speaker 1: was back in California, which is where we were born, 278 00:16:24,885 --> 00:16:27,045 Speaker 1: and that's why we had left and told us that 279 00:16:27,165 --> 00:16:31,205 Speaker 1: our names weren't our own. But we're living under so 280 00:16:32,245 --> 00:16:36,125 Speaker 1: a total you know, it's just like everything you've believed 281 00:16:36,165 --> 00:16:40,845 Speaker 1: to be true subtenly changes and this person that you 282 00:16:40,765 --> 00:16:42,965 Speaker 1: you know dad to me. Me and Dad were always 283 00:16:42,965 --> 00:16:46,245 Speaker 1: incredibly close. He was a very loving dad. He was 284 00:16:46,245 --> 00:16:48,565 Speaker 1: always very hands on. He was always looking for fun 285 00:16:48,725 --> 00:16:51,125 Speaker 1: games to make up with us or ways to like, 286 00:16:53,085 --> 00:16:56,245 Speaker 1: ways to engage with us. He was very engaged in 287 00:16:56,325 --> 00:17:01,125 Speaker 1: fun Dad, And this idea that he had the secret 288 00:17:01,285 --> 00:17:04,045 Speaker 1: that he had kept from me was very hurtful. And 289 00:17:04,085 --> 00:17:06,085 Speaker 1: I think at that age I was stony nine, so 290 00:17:06,645 --> 00:17:09,565 Speaker 1: it didn't fully make sense the way things don't you're 291 00:17:09,605 --> 00:17:12,765 Speaker 1: that young. The hardest thing was that he had left 292 00:17:12,805 --> 00:17:14,405 Speaker 1: and we didn't know where he was and we didn't 293 00:17:14,405 --> 00:17:16,285 Speaker 1: know when we would get to see him again. And 294 00:17:16,325 --> 00:17:19,005 Speaker 1: I think that was what was most hurtful in those 295 00:17:19,085 --> 00:17:20,005 Speaker 1: early years. 296 00:17:22,605 --> 00:17:26,205 Speaker 3: After this shortbreak, Tyler tells me how the family dealt 297 00:17:26,205 --> 00:17:29,925 Speaker 3: with the fallout of the truth coming out, and how 298 00:17:29,965 --> 00:17:32,885 Speaker 3: to be honest when the house is being bugged. 299 00:17:33,805 --> 00:17:34,805 Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere? 300 00:17:44,245 --> 00:17:44,445 Speaker 1: You know? 301 00:17:44,525 --> 00:17:49,285 Speaker 3: The conversation with your mum, which so I mean, can 302 00:17:49,325 --> 00:17:53,405 Speaker 3: you imagine having to have a conversation with your two 303 00:17:53,485 --> 00:18:00,285 Speaker 3: daughters that encompasses so much, actually destroys so much of 304 00:18:00,325 --> 00:18:04,605 Speaker 3: the mythology of their childhood and their father, and also 305 00:18:04,725 --> 00:18:07,045 Speaker 3: sets the scene for how you're going to have to 306 00:18:07,085 --> 00:18:10,845 Speaker 3: proceed into this new life. You don't know what that's 307 00:18:10,885 --> 00:18:15,485 Speaker 3: going to be. Where did that conversation take place? Where 308 00:18:15,525 --> 00:18:17,605 Speaker 3: were you? Where were you and your sister? Were you 309 00:18:17,645 --> 00:18:20,445 Speaker 3: in your bedroom? Were you did she say? I've got 310 00:18:20,445 --> 00:18:21,005 Speaker 3: something to. 311 00:18:20,925 --> 00:18:24,965 Speaker 2: Tell you girls? How does how does a how does 312 00:18:25,005 --> 00:18:25,885 Speaker 2: a woman do that? 313 00:18:26,365 --> 00:18:28,885 Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a conversation she had hoped she 314 00:18:28,925 --> 00:18:32,445 Speaker 1: would never need to have with us. We were late. 315 00:18:32,725 --> 00:18:37,405 Speaker 1: I woke up that morning and I noticed we were 316 00:18:37,445 --> 00:18:39,685 Speaker 1: late for school. Was after the time in the morning 317 00:18:39,765 --> 00:18:42,405 Speaker 1: I would normally get us up. So I went downstairs 318 00:18:42,565 --> 00:18:46,005 Speaker 1: and was confused. Mamy handn't awakeness woken us up, and 319 00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:48,445 Speaker 1: she gathered us all together. I was actually just me 320 00:18:48,725 --> 00:18:52,165 Speaker 1: and my sister. My brother was away at boarding school, 321 00:18:52,725 --> 00:18:55,365 Speaker 1: and she told us that she had something to tell us, 322 00:18:55,445 --> 00:18:58,565 Speaker 1: and we were in her bed. And amazingly, this bed 323 00:18:59,285 --> 00:19:01,805 Speaker 1: had traveled with them from California. I was one of 324 00:19:01,805 --> 00:19:04,765 Speaker 1: these items that she had just kept in the ship 325 00:19:04,965 --> 00:19:07,045 Speaker 1: over to Europe. And she was very fond of us 326 00:19:07,085 --> 00:19:10,725 Speaker 1: that this is incredibly cumbersome. I became kind of symbolic 327 00:19:10,765 --> 00:19:13,485 Speaker 1: of home for all of us. I was born in 328 00:19:13,525 --> 00:19:17,605 Speaker 1: that bed, and so she gathered us here and that 329 00:19:17,685 --> 00:19:21,045 Speaker 1: was where the conversation happened. And she was very careful 330 00:19:21,045 --> 00:19:24,405 Speaker 1: in her telling. I imagine she thought very carefully about 331 00:19:24,405 --> 00:19:27,965 Speaker 1: what she wanted to say to us and how she 332 00:19:28,005 --> 00:19:31,085 Speaker 1: wanted to phrase it, and also what she didn't want 333 00:19:31,125 --> 00:19:34,845 Speaker 1: to say to us. And I know now that one 334 00:19:34,885 --> 00:19:37,645 Speaker 1: of the reasons she was being so careful was to 335 00:19:37,685 --> 00:19:40,725 Speaker 1: make sure it was as unscary as it possibly could 336 00:19:40,725 --> 00:19:44,525 Speaker 1: be for her girls, but also because she suspected the 337 00:19:44,525 --> 00:19:49,125 Speaker 1: house was bugged, and so whatever she was saying, she 338 00:19:50,565 --> 00:19:54,965 Speaker 1: in all probability. Scotland George were listening. So when she 339 00:19:55,005 --> 00:19:57,125 Speaker 1: was talking about what she knew about where Dad was 340 00:19:57,645 --> 00:20:00,725 Speaker 1: or the nature of his crimes. She was quite vague, 341 00:20:01,245 --> 00:20:02,325 Speaker 1: and then I think we took the rest of the 342 00:20:02,405 --> 00:20:08,125 Speaker 1: day off school and tried to make sense of this 343 00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:13,485 Speaker 1: new world. And the strangest thing about it was that 344 00:20:13,525 --> 00:20:16,445 Speaker 1: we had to keep on pretending like everything was the 345 00:20:16,485 --> 00:20:20,765 Speaker 1: same as of course. And one of the biggest things 346 00:20:20,765 --> 00:20:24,205 Speaker 1: she impressed upon us was the importance that we talked 347 00:20:24,205 --> 00:20:26,925 Speaker 1: to no one about it. We weren't to tell our friends, 348 00:20:27,045 --> 00:20:30,245 Speaker 1: We couldn't talk to anybody, and she was always scared 349 00:20:30,325 --> 00:20:34,285 Speaker 1: that they might try and approach us and pretend to 350 00:20:34,325 --> 00:20:38,085 Speaker 1: be parents or friends, parents, or you know, something like this, 351 00:20:38,685 --> 00:20:41,805 Speaker 1: and try and talk to us about and find out 352 00:20:41,805 --> 00:20:44,885 Speaker 1: from us where Dad might be. And she was very 353 00:20:45,965 --> 00:20:50,925 Speaker 1: protective of wanting to make sure that never happened. So yeah, 354 00:20:50,965 --> 00:20:53,645 Speaker 1: she talk to anyone about about it, and not to 355 00:20:53,645 --> 00:20:56,885 Speaker 1: be careful somebody approached us to talk to us in public. 356 00:20:58,405 --> 00:21:00,165 Speaker 3: Looking at it through the prism of a nine year 357 00:21:00,205 --> 00:21:03,765 Speaker 3: old girl, you would have had like a girlfriend at 358 00:21:03,845 --> 00:21:05,925 Speaker 3: school that you were quite close to, and what you 359 00:21:05,965 --> 00:21:09,285 Speaker 3: would normally do was be like, guess what I found 360 00:21:09,565 --> 00:21:13,085 Speaker 3: today that my name's not Tyler Kan I've had it 361 00:21:13,285 --> 00:21:17,245 Speaker 3: like you would. You knew somehow not to do any 362 00:21:17,285 --> 00:21:20,925 Speaker 3: of that, and you knew that from really through your 363 00:21:20,965 --> 00:21:24,445 Speaker 3: whole life, when you were moving from country to country. 364 00:21:25,085 --> 00:21:28,485 Speaker 3: So you're nine and you're relatively settled at this point 365 00:21:28,965 --> 00:21:32,285 Speaker 3: in the UK with your mom who separated from your father. 366 00:21:32,325 --> 00:21:37,045 Speaker 3: But there's still they still seem to be quite harmonious 367 00:21:37,285 --> 00:21:38,005 Speaker 3: more or less. 368 00:21:38,565 --> 00:21:43,045 Speaker 1: I think mum, I know now that she was very 369 00:21:43,285 --> 00:21:47,965 Speaker 1: angry with him. Sure everything happened, and one of the 370 00:21:48,005 --> 00:21:51,165 Speaker 1: reasons we'd moved to where we were living then outside 371 00:21:51,165 --> 00:21:53,845 Speaker 1: of London and Bradford even was because she was trying 372 00:21:53,845 --> 00:21:57,085 Speaker 1: to put some distance between them. She felt like he 373 00:21:57,285 --> 00:22:02,325 Speaker 1: had and he had ruined their lives. That everything they 374 00:22:02,365 --> 00:22:07,205 Speaker 1: had loved, their home, the marriage, their safety had all 375 00:22:07,205 --> 00:22:11,485 Speaker 1: been jeopardized by his decision to keep smuggling drugs. And 376 00:22:12,605 --> 00:22:15,565 Speaker 1: I didn't know at the time why she found it 377 00:22:15,605 --> 00:22:18,805 Speaker 1: so hard to spend time with him. They had an 378 00:22:18,885 --> 00:22:22,365 Speaker 1: arrangement though she always knew that we should spend you know, 379 00:22:22,445 --> 00:22:26,445 Speaker 1: she really believed that it was important for us to 380 00:22:26,445 --> 00:22:29,245 Speaker 1: have a relationship with him, and she always made sure 381 00:22:29,405 --> 00:22:33,285 Speaker 1: that we did our every other weekend staying at our 382 00:22:33,365 --> 00:22:36,205 Speaker 1: dad's house, and that we would have some holidays with him. 383 00:22:36,285 --> 00:22:40,765 Speaker 1: So they shared custody, and that was amicaboraf But no, 384 00:22:40,845 --> 00:22:45,765 Speaker 1: they weren't friends, and she spent as little time as 385 00:22:45,765 --> 00:22:48,285 Speaker 1: she could with him or talking to him. 386 00:22:48,525 --> 00:22:53,405 Speaker 3: So you'd had this idyllic obviously through your baby eyes, 387 00:22:53,565 --> 00:22:57,325 Speaker 3: the Yellow House. That was a very beautiful and significant 388 00:22:57,325 --> 00:23:01,165 Speaker 3: place for you. Where did you go after that? 389 00:23:02,125 --> 00:23:07,445 Speaker 1: I was born in the Yellow House in California, and 390 00:23:07,525 --> 00:23:11,805 Speaker 1: I had just shived to years there and then we moved. 391 00:23:12,725 --> 00:23:15,725 Speaker 1: We were moving quite quickly. At first. We went first 392 00:23:15,805 --> 00:23:19,565 Speaker 1: to Rome and stayed there briefly with another fugitive family. 393 00:23:20,165 --> 00:23:23,725 Speaker 1: After that we went to a house in the coast 394 00:23:23,725 --> 00:23:26,805 Speaker 1: of Italy. I believe it's hard to remember the order now. 395 00:23:27,405 --> 00:23:29,045 Speaker 1: When I was writing the book, I had a list 396 00:23:29,965 --> 00:23:31,925 Speaker 1: all the houses and the dates so I could keep 397 00:23:31,965 --> 00:23:35,845 Speaker 1: it straight. And then I think we after that we 398 00:23:35,885 --> 00:23:38,205 Speaker 1: moved to the place where we settled, so we went 399 00:23:38,245 --> 00:23:40,645 Speaker 1: to a flat and Chelsea for a minute. After Chelsea, 400 00:23:41,085 --> 00:23:46,285 Speaker 1: we took a train across France and Spain down to Portugal, 401 00:23:46,845 --> 00:23:50,565 Speaker 1: which is where we settled for a year or nearly 402 00:23:50,565 --> 00:23:53,245 Speaker 1: a year, and we were quite happy there. And then 403 00:23:53,805 --> 00:23:56,485 Speaker 1: Dad realized that he could be extradited from Portugal. No 404 00:23:56,565 --> 00:23:59,245 Speaker 1: longer felt secure and so decided that we had to 405 00:23:59,285 --> 00:24:01,725 Speaker 1: leave again, which was very hard for Mom because she 406 00:24:01,725 --> 00:24:04,445 Speaker 1: felt she found good schools, we found friends, she liked 407 00:24:04,525 --> 00:24:04,965 Speaker 1: the house. 408 00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:06,725 Speaker 2: She just shaped the bead. 409 00:24:08,485 --> 00:24:10,565 Speaker 1: All the things that just arrived at the time, curring. 410 00:24:10,605 --> 00:24:13,325 Speaker 1: You know, they bring they you know, they shipped the 411 00:24:13,325 --> 00:24:15,125 Speaker 1: things over. They'd only just got there. I actually don't 412 00:24:15,125 --> 00:24:16,645 Speaker 1: know if they even got to the house. I think 413 00:24:16,965 --> 00:24:19,125 Speaker 1: they took so long that they got rerouted to the 414 00:24:19,165 --> 00:24:21,445 Speaker 1: next house. And then we went to the south of France, 415 00:24:21,965 --> 00:24:25,485 Speaker 1: to Mujan, where Mum was started to become very unhappy 416 00:24:25,725 --> 00:24:29,565 Speaker 1: with what was being asked of her. She had agreed 417 00:24:29,565 --> 00:24:32,565 Speaker 1: to go on the run, thinking it sounded preferable to 418 00:24:32,605 --> 00:24:37,605 Speaker 1: being a mother of three with an incarcerated husband for 419 00:24:37,645 --> 00:24:40,965 Speaker 1: an unknown amount of time, and they mistakenly believed that 420 00:24:40,965 --> 00:24:42,765 Speaker 1: they could make a deal with a bit of time 421 00:24:42,805 --> 00:24:46,325 Speaker 1: and distance and for Dad to serve less time than 422 00:24:46,365 --> 00:24:49,085 Speaker 1: he would have been facing, which all seems very wishful thinking, 423 00:24:49,245 --> 00:24:51,525 Speaker 1: but I guess at the time that's what they believed. 424 00:24:52,085 --> 00:24:54,925 Speaker 1: Over the years, it became clear that this wasn't going 425 00:24:54,925 --> 00:24:58,525 Speaker 1: to happen, and that their life of living under false 426 00:24:58,565 --> 00:25:02,085 Speaker 1: identities not really even able to have real friends because 427 00:25:02,085 --> 00:25:05,125 Speaker 1: you have this huge secret living amongst a community of 428 00:25:05,165 --> 00:25:08,685 Speaker 1: other fugitives where everyone really Mum would get so frustrated, 429 00:25:08,685 --> 00:25:11,165 Speaker 1: they'd all talk up being fugitives all the time. She 430 00:25:12,365 --> 00:25:15,805 Speaker 1: wanted a real life and friends and family and a 431 00:25:15,845 --> 00:25:19,605 Speaker 1: home and security, and not to be looking in the 432 00:25:19,645 --> 00:25:23,205 Speaker 1: revery mirror wondering when they're going to turn up again. 433 00:25:23,845 --> 00:25:27,885 Speaker 1: And eventually that became all too much for her to 434 00:25:27,965 --> 00:25:30,685 Speaker 1: ask of her and that's when their marriage broke down 435 00:25:31,325 --> 00:25:33,365 Speaker 1: and she left with us. 436 00:25:33,725 --> 00:25:38,405 Speaker 3: It's interesting because being an expat anyway, your life is 437 00:25:38,485 --> 00:25:43,925 Speaker 3: kind of shrink wrapped. But if you then narrowed that 438 00:25:44,045 --> 00:25:46,405 Speaker 3: world down even more to the fact that you've only 439 00:25:46,405 --> 00:25:49,685 Speaker 3: got to hang out with other fugitives and criminals who 440 00:25:49,725 --> 00:25:53,605 Speaker 3: are on the run, that makes that a really tiny, 441 00:25:53,805 --> 00:25:57,205 Speaker 3: intense world. 442 00:25:57,565 --> 00:26:03,845 Speaker 1: Yes, and people who were all experiencing stress. It's a 443 00:26:04,085 --> 00:26:08,965 Speaker 1: very anxiety inducing existence to be waiting to get caught 444 00:26:09,965 --> 00:26:13,125 Speaker 1: and also really inconvenient. You know that, how do you 445 00:26:13,165 --> 00:26:15,925 Speaker 1: get kids in school when you're trying to live under name? 446 00:26:16,005 --> 00:26:19,485 Speaker 1: What do you do about medical stuff? Like? You know, 447 00:26:19,525 --> 00:26:23,765 Speaker 1: your your every interaction comes with this extra burden. 448 00:26:25,285 --> 00:26:28,245 Speaker 2: So you would always go to school. 449 00:26:28,605 --> 00:26:31,285 Speaker 1: We always went to school. I got the best deal 450 00:26:31,325 --> 00:26:33,125 Speaker 1: of my siblings because I was the youngest. So by 451 00:26:33,165 --> 00:26:35,765 Speaker 1: the time I was being schooled, Mum had left Dad 452 00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:39,045 Speaker 1: and we were living in England, and some that took 453 00:26:39,085 --> 00:26:42,525 Speaker 1: some of the pressure off. We kept our fake I 454 00:26:42,525 --> 00:26:44,805 Speaker 1: mean I always kept my first name was always the same, 455 00:26:44,845 --> 00:26:47,485 Speaker 1: but we used fake surname because that's what we've been 456 00:26:47,565 --> 00:26:52,005 Speaker 1: envolved in school in and I so I sat of 457 00:26:52,005 --> 00:26:54,925 Speaker 1: school in England. My siblings were schooled in Portugal in France, 458 00:26:55,365 --> 00:26:57,965 Speaker 1: so their schooling suffered a little bit from it. But no, 459 00:26:58,045 --> 00:27:00,565 Speaker 1: we were always in school and a Mum always made 460 00:27:00,565 --> 00:27:05,645 Speaker 1: sure education was really important. She did a really good 461 00:27:05,725 --> 00:27:08,845 Speaker 1: job of making our childhood as normal as possible under 462 00:27:08,845 --> 00:27:14,405 Speaker 1: the circum stances. It's very unnormal, but very hard to 463 00:27:14,485 --> 00:27:16,965 Speaker 1: make it so it felt, and I guess that's why 464 00:27:17,005 --> 00:27:20,285 Speaker 1: it was possible for me to not have an idea 465 00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:25,085 Speaker 1: until Scotland Yard turned up again that there was anything wrong. 466 00:27:26,165 --> 00:27:27,885 Speaker 1: The worst thing I thought that it ever happened was 467 00:27:27,885 --> 00:27:31,765 Speaker 1: that they broke up, and I was heartbroken that they'd separated. 468 00:27:34,325 --> 00:27:37,565 Speaker 3: What were the other fugitives? What were the what were 469 00:27:37,605 --> 00:27:38,765 Speaker 3: they fuging from? 470 00:27:39,485 --> 00:27:45,765 Speaker 1: Almost all of them were other drug smuggling friends and 471 00:27:46,165 --> 00:27:49,485 Speaker 1: a lot of them had worked with Dad in his organization. 472 00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:51,685 Speaker 1: You know, they did some big smuggles. There was a 473 00:27:51,725 --> 00:27:55,125 Speaker 1: lot of people down the train of command, and some 474 00:27:55,165 --> 00:27:59,765 Speaker 1: were other fugitives that they had been introduced to. So 475 00:27:59,845 --> 00:28:01,885 Speaker 1: when you know, you've got to think this is pre Internet, 476 00:28:01,925 --> 00:28:04,885 Speaker 1: not that you'd google it or anything. Getting the information 477 00:28:05,045 --> 00:28:07,365 Speaker 1: was quite difficult on how to do this. So there 478 00:28:07,405 --> 00:28:10,565 Speaker 1: was this network exchanging information about how you go about 479 00:28:10,565 --> 00:28:12,165 Speaker 1: doing all the things you had to do. You'd get 480 00:28:12,205 --> 00:28:14,645 Speaker 1: your how to go about getting a good fake identity, 481 00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:18,125 Speaker 1: which borders were good to cross, which were no goes. 482 00:28:18,485 --> 00:28:21,565 Speaker 1: Like they exchanged information which may do quite close to 483 00:28:21,605 --> 00:28:25,165 Speaker 1: these people. Some were people that Dad knew from before, 484 00:28:26,045 --> 00:28:29,165 Speaker 1: some were people that he'd been introduced to amongst this network. 485 00:28:29,325 --> 00:28:31,485 Speaker 1: You always used your fake names so people wouldn't know 486 00:28:31,485 --> 00:28:33,725 Speaker 1: your real identity, so if they were to get caught, 487 00:28:34,045 --> 00:28:37,165 Speaker 1: they couldn't give you up, though that was always a risk. 488 00:28:37,885 --> 00:28:42,165 Speaker 1: Some of these families had kids too, so we, unbeknownst 489 00:28:42,245 --> 00:28:44,245 Speaker 1: to us at the time, would hang out with these 490 00:28:44,325 --> 00:28:47,245 Speaker 1: other fugitive kids and some of them might have since 491 00:28:47,285 --> 00:28:49,405 Speaker 1: been in touch with and we've talked about all the 492 00:28:49,445 --> 00:28:51,845 Speaker 1: different lives that we told or how we found out 493 00:28:52,285 --> 00:28:56,005 Speaker 1: or what happened or how parents were eventually caught. And 494 00:28:57,085 --> 00:29:06,285 Speaker 1: it's a very unique set of hardships and absurdities of 495 00:29:06,405 --> 00:29:09,965 Speaker 1: being a fugitive kid. So I find that I can 496 00:29:10,005 --> 00:29:12,605 Speaker 1: now spot them when someone is telling me about and 497 00:29:12,645 --> 00:29:14,525 Speaker 1: I hear the types of lies they're telling them, Like, 498 00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:17,925 Speaker 1: I don't suppose you were on the run? Were you? 499 00:29:18,165 --> 00:29:19,685 Speaker 2: Why? How often does that happen? 500 00:29:20,805 --> 00:29:22,645 Speaker 1: Three times? 501 00:29:23,205 --> 00:29:24,005 Speaker 2: Wow? 502 00:29:26,045 --> 00:29:34,045 Speaker 3: Yeah, in just a moment, Tyler shares just how to 503 00:29:34,085 --> 00:29:37,045 Speaker 3: maintain a relationship with someone on the run. 504 00:29:37,885 --> 00:29:38,885 Speaker 2: Will be right back. 505 00:29:44,085 --> 00:29:46,925 Speaker 3: So your dad's plan was I mean, there was a 506 00:29:47,005 --> 00:29:48,445 Speaker 3: method to his madness. 507 00:29:48,525 --> 00:29:50,245 Speaker 2: I guess you could say was. 508 00:29:50,205 --> 00:29:53,685 Speaker 3: That he thought that he could go to Portugal and 509 00:29:53,765 --> 00:29:57,125 Speaker 3: resettle the family because there was not an extradition treaty there, 510 00:29:58,485 --> 00:30:02,925 Speaker 3: but then found out that it excluded drug crimes. 511 00:30:03,325 --> 00:30:03,965 Speaker 1: Yep, that's right. 512 00:30:04,485 --> 00:30:07,485 Speaker 3: So that blew the whole thing up. And was it 513 00:30:07,525 --> 00:30:09,445 Speaker 3: at that point your mum went. 514 00:30:10,965 --> 00:30:11,805 Speaker 2: I'm done. 515 00:30:12,565 --> 00:30:17,165 Speaker 3: I need a life that's not on the run. But 516 00:30:17,285 --> 00:30:20,805 Speaker 3: your father obviously still had to continue to be on 517 00:30:20,845 --> 00:30:24,925 Speaker 3: the run. So how would you see him given that 518 00:30:24,965 --> 00:30:27,565 Speaker 3: it was so important for your mum, for you kids 519 00:30:27,605 --> 00:30:30,485 Speaker 3: to maintain your relationship with him, how did they work 520 00:30:30,525 --> 00:30:30,925 Speaker 3: that out? 521 00:30:30,965 --> 00:30:32,565 Speaker 2: And where would you meet your dad? 522 00:30:33,765 --> 00:30:36,165 Speaker 1: So there was a period of time. So they separated 523 00:30:36,205 --> 00:30:37,885 Speaker 1: when I was four, and there's a period of time 524 00:30:37,965 --> 00:30:43,325 Speaker 1: until I was nine where Dad had really successfully evaded 525 00:30:43,365 --> 00:30:47,325 Speaker 1: the authorities. He was living under his feet name Martin Kin, 526 00:30:47,485 --> 00:30:53,125 Speaker 1: and he was he'd got a speeding ticket and went 527 00:30:53,165 --> 00:30:56,925 Speaker 1: to court to argue his ticket. He had brank accounts, 528 00:30:57,005 --> 00:31:01,485 Speaker 1: He had a fully fledged paper trail that connected him 529 00:31:01,565 --> 00:31:05,805 Speaker 1: to this man, his fake identity. So at that point 530 00:31:05,885 --> 00:31:10,685 Speaker 1: when they separated, he considered turning himself in because he 531 00:31:10,685 --> 00:31:12,805 Speaker 1: had lost the thing that he most wanted to save. 532 00:31:13,285 --> 00:31:18,325 Speaker 1: I mean, all along he realized that he jeopardized what 533 00:31:18,365 --> 00:31:22,205 Speaker 1: made him happiest, such as his family, and once the 534 00:31:22,245 --> 00:31:24,965 Speaker 1: marriage broke down and he was only seeing us every 535 00:31:24,965 --> 00:31:27,525 Speaker 1: other weekend, he was terribly lonely, living under a fake 536 00:31:27,565 --> 00:31:29,925 Speaker 1: identity in London at that point because mum had wanted 537 00:31:29,965 --> 00:31:32,925 Speaker 1: to go back to England. My mum's English and her 538 00:31:32,965 --> 00:31:36,245 Speaker 1: family were in the UK and she wanted to reconnect 539 00:31:36,325 --> 00:31:39,525 Speaker 1: with them, and so he found himself living this very 540 00:31:39,645 --> 00:31:43,085 Speaker 1: isolated existence. At that point, he thought about turning himself in, 541 00:31:43,165 --> 00:31:46,085 Speaker 1: but they weren't looking for him. Anymore. It had been 542 00:31:47,125 --> 00:31:50,365 Speaker 1: you know, five years at that point, more or less 543 00:31:50,765 --> 00:31:53,325 Speaker 1: since the start of the investigation. They'd got a number 544 00:31:53,365 --> 00:31:57,845 Speaker 1: of other people he had disappeared, so we decided to 545 00:31:57,885 --> 00:32:00,285 Speaker 1: see how things win. And for a couple of years 546 00:32:00,325 --> 00:32:03,445 Speaker 1: he was living a normal ish life. He had a 547 00:32:03,485 --> 00:32:07,365 Speaker 1: couple of restaurants on the Kensington Road in London and 548 00:32:08,165 --> 00:32:11,365 Speaker 1: managed them or as an in them. He had a few, 549 00:32:11,445 --> 00:32:14,285 Speaker 1: you know, side businesses, and things were kind of normal, 550 00:32:14,725 --> 00:32:16,525 Speaker 1: and that probably just saw him like you had any 551 00:32:16,525 --> 00:32:21,725 Speaker 1: other dad, you know, of a separated you know, every 552 00:32:21,765 --> 00:32:23,565 Speaker 1: other weekend we'd see him, and it was it was 553 00:32:23,605 --> 00:32:29,165 Speaker 1: perfectly normal. When they started looking for him again. What 554 00:32:29,285 --> 00:32:32,965 Speaker 1: had happened during this time was he had reconnected with 555 00:32:33,085 --> 00:32:36,125 Speaker 1: a pair of drug smuggling brothers that he had worked 556 00:32:36,165 --> 00:32:39,245 Speaker 1: with on some of the early drug deals, early smuggles 557 00:32:39,285 --> 00:32:42,125 Speaker 1: he had done. They weren't involved in the last deal 558 00:32:42,165 --> 00:32:44,205 Speaker 1: that he did, the one that went wrong and led 559 00:32:44,245 --> 00:32:46,925 Speaker 1: to his eventual led to the discovery of his crimes, 560 00:32:47,485 --> 00:32:49,925 Speaker 1: and so he reconnected with them and they had kept smuggling, 561 00:32:49,965 --> 00:32:52,125 Speaker 1: and they had accrued a huge amount of money and 562 00:32:52,165 --> 00:32:54,565 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with it. So they hired 563 00:32:54,645 --> 00:32:57,525 Speaker 1: him for his financial expertise, getting back to his Wall 564 00:32:57,565 --> 00:33:01,885 Speaker 1: Street roots he had, and this is such a dad thing. 565 00:33:02,285 --> 00:33:05,645 Speaker 1: He didn't really see it as a risk because he 566 00:33:05,725 --> 00:33:10,125 Speaker 1: was just investing their money. For them, he was laundering money, obviously, 567 00:33:10,525 --> 00:33:13,405 Speaker 1: but for him, it was going back to his Wall 568 00:33:13,405 --> 00:33:17,645 Speaker 1: Street roots and looking for good investments and ways to 569 00:33:17,725 --> 00:33:21,205 Speaker 1: build their portfolio. So he was buying fine art and 570 00:33:21,245 --> 00:33:24,525 Speaker 1: he was going and testing vintage Ferraris, and he was 571 00:33:25,685 --> 00:33:29,925 Speaker 1: having quite a wonderful time and his life had become 572 00:33:30,085 --> 00:33:32,925 Speaker 1: quite fun and interesting and glamorous again. He had a 573 00:33:32,965 --> 00:33:37,805 Speaker 1: girlfriend and of course we know what's going to happen here, 574 00:33:38,205 --> 00:33:42,605 Speaker 1: Like they got in trouble, and when they got in trouble, 575 00:33:43,565 --> 00:33:47,805 Speaker 1: they tried hard to protect him and could have given 576 00:33:48,085 --> 00:33:53,525 Speaker 1: up his name a lot sooner, but they didn't, and 577 00:33:53,565 --> 00:33:56,765 Speaker 1: eventually they were put in a corner where they were 578 00:33:57,045 --> 00:34:00,245 Speaker 1: accused of withholding information and their deals with the authorities 579 00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:03,205 Speaker 1: would have fallen apart if they didn't give up his name, 580 00:34:03,325 --> 00:34:05,125 Speaker 1: and they got warning to him so he would know, 581 00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:09,925 Speaker 1: and that's when he disappeared again, knowing that they had 582 00:34:09,965 --> 00:34:13,325 Speaker 1: his new identity, Martin Kin. And that's when Scotland Yard 583 00:34:13,325 --> 00:34:16,885 Speaker 1: turned up on our doorstep. And in the years that followed, 584 00:34:17,445 --> 00:34:21,085 Speaker 1: that's when our lives as kids became very strange. 585 00:34:22,205 --> 00:34:25,805 Speaker 3: When you say Scotland yard turned up. Were they following 586 00:34:25,885 --> 00:34:28,725 Speaker 3: you as children? Would they follow you to school? 587 00:34:29,045 --> 00:34:31,445 Speaker 1: So when they turned back up first they just were 588 00:34:31,485 --> 00:34:34,205 Speaker 1: asking mum where he was. They just missed him by 589 00:34:34,285 --> 00:34:37,045 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. They turned up his house, raided his house, 590 00:34:37,045 --> 00:34:40,965 Speaker 1: and he wasn't there, and they were obviously pretty pissed 591 00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:43,445 Speaker 1: that this had happened, and they knew her mom was 592 00:34:43,525 --> 00:34:45,405 Speaker 1: Mum was living under her real name by that point, 593 00:34:45,445 --> 00:34:47,685 Speaker 1: and turned up looking for him and see if she 594 00:34:47,725 --> 00:34:52,205 Speaker 1: had any information. After that point, we started to notice them. 595 00:34:52,645 --> 00:34:54,965 Speaker 1: We sort of noticed them waiting sort of in a 596 00:34:55,005 --> 00:34:58,925 Speaker 1: car across the road from outside our school. We would 597 00:34:58,965 --> 00:35:02,045 Speaker 1: notice that they were following us home. We would sense 598 00:35:02,405 --> 00:35:06,125 Speaker 1: that we suspected they were listening to our phone calls 599 00:35:06,125 --> 00:35:09,245 Speaker 1: that we didn't know. Mom feared they bugged the car 600 00:35:09,365 --> 00:35:11,605 Speaker 1: as well, So we were careful about the conversations we 601 00:35:11,645 --> 00:35:13,685 Speaker 1: had in the car. We were careful about the conversations 602 00:35:13,725 --> 00:35:16,485 Speaker 1: we had in the house. We didn't really talk about 603 00:35:16,525 --> 00:35:19,645 Speaker 1: it a great deal because of this sort of war 604 00:35:19,765 --> 00:35:22,925 Speaker 1: of are they listening, are they around the corner. When 605 00:35:22,925 --> 00:35:24,525 Speaker 1: we did need to talk about it, we'd take the 606 00:35:24,525 --> 00:35:25,965 Speaker 1: dog for a long walk and in the middle of 607 00:35:26,045 --> 00:35:28,085 Speaker 1: a field where you can really check out if anyone's 608 00:35:28,125 --> 00:35:31,845 Speaker 1: surveying you, that's where we'd have these conversations. Mum had 609 00:35:31,885 --> 00:35:36,205 Speaker 1: been under when they first started the investigation back in California. 610 00:35:36,685 --> 00:35:38,845 Speaker 1: Dad had taught her how to spot tale, how to 611 00:35:38,885 --> 00:35:41,685 Speaker 1: tell if your phone was bugged, so she had some 612 00:35:41,725 --> 00:35:45,645 Speaker 1: skills at this stage that she could use. So we 613 00:35:45,645 --> 00:35:48,925 Speaker 1: were aware as kids that we were being followed, and 614 00:35:48,965 --> 00:35:54,445 Speaker 1: it was very weird to have like childhood conversations with boyfriends, 615 00:35:54,525 --> 00:35:58,405 Speaker 1: you know, your first like your kid, and you spend 616 00:35:58,405 --> 00:35:59,845 Speaker 1: hours on the phone with your friends, or you have 617 00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:02,565 Speaker 1: those boys called the house because they're still house them 618 00:36:02,845 --> 00:36:04,965 Speaker 1: and all those conversations, and in the back of my head, 619 00:36:05,005 --> 00:36:09,125 Speaker 1: I'd be like, are they listening to this? Real they were, 620 00:36:10,045 --> 00:36:13,445 Speaker 1: and we had to keep it very secret. And then 621 00:36:13,485 --> 00:36:17,445 Speaker 1: at some point Dad managed to get word to us 622 00:36:17,885 --> 00:36:23,805 Speaker 1: to meet to range Away to see and that first 623 00:36:23,885 --> 00:36:27,205 Speaker 1: we took, our first trip was terrifying for everybody because 624 00:36:27,205 --> 00:36:28,885 Speaker 1: none of us knew if we were going to get caught. 625 00:36:29,565 --> 00:36:32,365 Speaker 1: I still don't know entirely why Mom agreed to do it. 626 00:36:33,725 --> 00:36:35,565 Speaker 2: Where was it to the first treat. 627 00:36:35,725 --> 00:36:38,565 Speaker 1: We didn't know it was happening until we met up 628 00:36:38,565 --> 00:36:40,445 Speaker 1: with the guy who was going to take us so, 629 00:36:40,485 --> 00:36:42,405 Speaker 1: a friend of my dad's who wasn't ever in the 630 00:36:42,485 --> 00:36:45,285 Speaker 1: drug business so he wouldn't be into surveillance, someone that 631 00:36:45,325 --> 00:36:48,765 Speaker 1: the authorities wouldn't know about, met up with us in 632 00:36:48,805 --> 00:36:51,565 Speaker 1: a pub in the countryside, and Mom handed us over 633 00:36:51,605 --> 00:36:53,485 Speaker 1: to him. We knew him, we'd had breakfast with him, 634 00:36:53,485 --> 00:36:56,485 Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't a stranger to us, and he 635 00:36:56,605 --> 00:36:59,845 Speaker 1: drove us to Paris where Dad was waiting. We only 636 00:36:59,925 --> 00:37:01,645 Speaker 1: knew what was happening at the point where we met 637 00:37:01,725 --> 00:37:03,565 Speaker 1: up with him in the pub and Mom explained to us, 638 00:37:03,725 --> 00:37:05,165 Speaker 1: and I was thrilled. I was going to go see 639 00:37:05,205 --> 00:37:09,645 Speaker 1: my dad. I missed him terribly. It'd been month at 640 00:37:09,645 --> 00:37:14,325 Speaker 1: that point that we'd been separated. And we took the 641 00:37:14,325 --> 00:37:19,045 Speaker 1: ferry across to Paris and then drove the rest of 642 00:37:19,045 --> 00:37:23,045 Speaker 1: the way, and it was really exciting, and there was 643 00:37:23,085 --> 00:37:25,285 Speaker 1: still a way that Dad had a making these trips 644 00:37:25,285 --> 00:37:27,725 Speaker 1: feel kind of normal. I think my sister found them 645 00:37:27,725 --> 00:37:30,365 Speaker 1: harder because she was more aware of the risks and 646 00:37:30,405 --> 00:37:33,005 Speaker 1: also aware of how hard Mom found it. To say 647 00:37:33,005 --> 00:37:35,405 Speaker 1: goodbye to us, and how scared Mom was that at 648 00:37:35,445 --> 00:37:37,845 Speaker 1: any point if he were to be arrested while we 649 00:37:37,885 --> 00:37:40,845 Speaker 1: were there, what would happen to us. But once that 650 00:37:40,885 --> 00:37:44,605 Speaker 1: first trip was successful and they didn't follow us, then 651 00:37:44,605 --> 00:37:47,725 Speaker 1: there were more. Then we started this time where we 652 00:37:47,765 --> 00:37:51,845 Speaker 1: would me and Katie after school would go to payphones 653 00:37:52,245 --> 00:37:55,645 Speaker 1: where we'd had arranged a series of phone calls with 654 00:37:55,765 --> 00:37:58,845 Speaker 1: Dad at times and different addresses at different payphones, where 655 00:37:58,845 --> 00:38:00,885 Speaker 1: he would call the payphone when we got there and 656 00:38:00,925 --> 00:38:04,685 Speaker 1: we'd be able to chat to him, And it was 657 00:38:04,845 --> 00:38:08,085 Speaker 1: always different schedules, so they weren't following us everywhere we went. 658 00:38:08,125 --> 00:38:11,045 Speaker 1: They mainly followed mom, and we'd occasionally notice that they 659 00:38:11,045 --> 00:38:14,245 Speaker 1: were there, and we'd be kids in phone booths. So 660 00:38:14,285 --> 00:38:16,565 Speaker 1: we spent time having these candesetine phone calls with their 661 00:38:16,645 --> 00:38:19,045 Speaker 1: dad from phone booths all over the city, and then 662 00:38:19,085 --> 00:38:22,285 Speaker 1: we'd have trips out to see him, taken by our 663 00:38:22,285 --> 00:38:25,845 Speaker 1: big brother or by a friend of my dad's, and 664 00:38:25,965 --> 00:38:28,685 Speaker 1: never knowing if this was the one that they were 665 00:38:28,725 --> 00:38:32,565 Speaker 1: going to intercept us, or if this was the one 666 00:38:32,605 --> 00:38:34,565 Speaker 1: where they figured out what was happening and followed us. 667 00:38:35,325 --> 00:38:39,445 Speaker 1: And once there was a near miss and we had 668 00:38:39,445 --> 00:38:40,645 Speaker 1: to pack up in the middle of the night and 669 00:38:40,765 --> 00:38:43,925 Speaker 1: move from where Dad was staying. But on the whole 670 00:38:44,885 --> 00:38:47,085 Speaker 1: it felt like we were getting away with it, and 671 00:38:47,205 --> 00:38:50,765 Speaker 1: Dad again felt like he was getting away with it. 672 00:38:51,725 --> 00:38:54,845 Speaker 1: Then that sense of hubris was growing again. 673 00:38:55,285 --> 00:38:57,525 Speaker 3: And at what point, So it was when you were 674 00:38:57,565 --> 00:38:59,845 Speaker 3: twelve they stopped getting away with it. 675 00:39:00,765 --> 00:39:04,765 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I told are your birthday? 676 00:39:05,885 --> 00:39:08,485 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we'd have this strange period of time. So 677 00:39:08,925 --> 00:39:13,125 Speaker 1: it'd been you know, two and a half years of 678 00:39:13,565 --> 00:39:16,405 Speaker 1: Dad moving quite quickly. We didn't often visit him in 679 00:39:16,445 --> 00:39:21,325 Speaker 1: the same place twice. He was different locations around France mainly, 680 00:39:21,645 --> 00:39:23,725 Speaker 1: and we'd go see him and he'd be back with 681 00:39:23,765 --> 00:39:26,365 Speaker 1: his community fugitives that we'd lived with and your kids. 682 00:39:26,565 --> 00:39:28,605 Speaker 1: So some of those fugitive kids again we were hanging 683 00:39:28,645 --> 00:39:33,365 Speaker 1: out with, none of us knowing of what was going on, 684 00:39:33,565 --> 00:39:35,085 Speaker 1: and we never talked to them about it. I think 685 00:39:35,085 --> 00:39:37,525 Speaker 1: there was one time when some other fugitive kids got 686 00:39:37,565 --> 00:39:40,525 Speaker 1: told the secret that all of our parents were drug 687 00:39:40,565 --> 00:39:42,525 Speaker 1: smigelers and that we were on the run from the FBI, 688 00:39:43,005 --> 00:39:45,605 Speaker 1: and we were asked to like help them work through it, 689 00:39:45,645 --> 00:39:47,405 Speaker 1: and both me and my sister were like, well, no 690 00:39:47,445 --> 00:39:49,245 Speaker 1: one was there to help us, and we don't know 691 00:39:49,285 --> 00:39:51,125 Speaker 1: what to say, and the only rule we have is 692 00:39:51,165 --> 00:39:55,005 Speaker 1: don't tell anyone. So we had this strange period of time. 693 00:39:55,125 --> 00:39:58,005 Speaker 1: And then Dad was looking for a business opportunity to 694 00:39:58,045 --> 00:40:01,125 Speaker 1: make money again and something that wasn't going to get 695 00:40:01,205 --> 00:40:03,805 Speaker 1: him in trouble, and that's hard when you're on the 696 00:40:03,845 --> 00:40:05,845 Speaker 1: run and living under fake identity. And he had the 697 00:40:05,845 --> 00:40:09,165 Speaker 1: opportunity to go manage a hotel on a Caribbean island 698 00:40:09,525 --> 00:40:11,765 Speaker 1: and Saint Lucia. The guy had no idea, obviously about 699 00:40:11,765 --> 00:40:14,445 Speaker 1: his background, so he went out there and managed his 700 00:40:14,485 --> 00:40:18,525 Speaker 1: hotel and eventually convinced mom. Dad is very persuasive. He's 701 00:40:18,685 --> 00:40:23,125 Speaker 1: very confident and calm, and it makes it hard when 702 00:40:23,165 --> 00:40:25,085 Speaker 1: you try and tell him to be worried about something, 703 00:40:25,365 --> 00:40:29,365 Speaker 1: to feel like you're not that you're worries are justified 704 00:40:29,605 --> 00:40:33,365 Speaker 1: because he brushes them away. So somehow it convince Mom 705 00:40:33,365 --> 00:40:35,205 Speaker 1: that we were going to fly out and visit him 706 00:40:35,205 --> 00:40:38,125 Speaker 1: in Saint Lucia for my twelfth birthday. This time, i'd 707 00:40:38,125 --> 00:40:41,645 Speaker 1: been another long gap between seeing him, and he was 708 00:40:41,725 --> 00:40:44,805 Speaker 1: really excited. He wanted to show us this really beautiful place, 709 00:40:45,005 --> 00:40:47,525 Speaker 1: this island. He wanted to show us him working in 710 00:40:47,565 --> 00:40:50,445 Speaker 1: a job, as a real job with an office. He 711 00:40:50,565 --> 00:40:54,245 Speaker 1: was proud and meet all the people he'd met out there. 712 00:40:54,405 --> 00:40:56,365 Speaker 1: He was out there with his girlfriend. 713 00:40:56,285 --> 00:40:58,085 Speaker 2: Still the same girlfriend. 714 00:40:58,205 --> 00:41:02,205 Speaker 1: Yeah, the same girlfriend through it all. Wow. And we 715 00:41:02,285 --> 00:41:07,325 Speaker 1: had two really beautiful weeks there learning to scuba dive 716 00:41:07,605 --> 00:41:13,205 Speaker 1: and hanging out being beach kids. And it was on 717 00:41:13,205 --> 00:41:15,765 Speaker 1: one of the final nights when we were getting ready 718 00:41:15,845 --> 00:41:18,085 Speaker 1: for going out for dinner for my twelfth birthday. It 719 00:41:18,205 --> 00:41:21,965 Speaker 1: arranged a special dinner in the main capital city there. 720 00:41:22,165 --> 00:41:25,005 Speaker 1: We're going to go eat lobsters, and we were excited 721 00:41:25,045 --> 00:41:27,845 Speaker 1: and we were getting ready, me and my sister for 722 00:41:27,925 --> 00:41:29,765 Speaker 1: the evening and we came down to meet Dad in 723 00:41:29,805 --> 00:41:33,445 Speaker 1: the office and we could just straight away we saw 724 00:41:33,445 --> 00:41:36,645 Speaker 1: the look on his face and we knew immediately what happened. 725 00:41:37,245 --> 00:41:40,245 Speaker 1: We could tell he was on the phone, and we 726 00:41:40,245 --> 00:41:43,205 Speaker 1: could tell it was Mom, and we knew that this 727 00:41:43,365 --> 00:41:46,045 Speaker 1: was it. There was just a gravitas to him and 728 00:41:46,565 --> 00:41:51,525 Speaker 1: a heartbreak. All through those years of being on the run, 729 00:41:51,605 --> 00:41:54,365 Speaker 1: he was always looking for a solution, for a way out, 730 00:41:55,285 --> 00:41:58,685 Speaker 1: and he's an optimist and he kept thinking that that 731 00:41:58,925 --> 00:42:02,485 Speaker 1: there was a way And I think when they found 732 00:42:02,485 --> 00:42:06,845 Speaker 1: out he was in Saint Lucia. I think that it 733 00:42:06,965 --> 00:42:09,005 Speaker 1: suddenly dawned on him that there wasn't going to be 734 00:42:09,045 --> 00:42:12,445 Speaker 1: a way out. They had turned up at mum's house. 735 00:42:12,725 --> 00:42:15,485 Speaker 1: They had found our flight details and they were on 736 00:42:15,525 --> 00:42:19,765 Speaker 1: the way to the island. So there was a ticking 737 00:42:19,805 --> 00:42:23,125 Speaker 1: time clock there and dinner was canceled. 738 00:42:23,845 --> 00:42:28,685 Speaker 2: That apology was canceled. Oh, dinner was canceled. 739 00:42:30,885 --> 00:42:33,125 Speaker 1: I was screwing up my birthday, which is one of 740 00:42:33,125 --> 00:42:36,925 Speaker 1: those things. You know, it's always heartbreaking when you're a kid, 741 00:42:37,045 --> 00:42:38,605 Speaker 1: And I think this is what so much of it 742 00:42:38,685 --> 00:42:45,485 Speaker 1: comes down to, is when you see your parents's mistake 743 00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:49,765 Speaker 1: making people, and it dawns and you really for the 744 00:42:49,805 --> 00:42:55,845 Speaker 1: first time that they're just like everybody else and that 745 00:42:55,845 --> 00:43:00,445 Speaker 1: they've screwed up. And that night Dad was trying to 746 00:43:00,445 --> 00:43:03,965 Speaker 1: figure out flights as soon as he could get us 747 00:43:03,965 --> 00:43:06,565 Speaker 1: off the island before he worried about his own situation. 748 00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:08,165 Speaker 1: He needs to make sure we were on our way home. 749 00:43:09,165 --> 00:43:11,925 Speaker 1: Had made him swear to get us home safely. And 750 00:43:11,965 --> 00:43:14,005 Speaker 1: I remember going into his room and his house where 751 00:43:14,005 --> 00:43:16,365 Speaker 1: he was living there, and we'd we were in a 752 00:43:16,365 --> 00:43:19,005 Speaker 1: little cabana next door, and I went into his room 753 00:43:19,085 --> 00:43:23,005 Speaker 1: and he was crying and it's just that, you know, 754 00:43:23,125 --> 00:43:28,885 Speaker 1: senor your parents cry when your kid is always discombobulating. 755 00:43:28,925 --> 00:43:34,045 Speaker 1: It's like the world is as as the world isn't 756 00:43:34,085 --> 00:43:37,165 Speaker 1: what you imagined it to be. And seeing his tears 757 00:43:37,325 --> 00:43:41,085 Speaker 1: was really hard, and I also was angry at the 758 00:43:41,125 --> 00:43:50,645 Speaker 1: same time and frightened. So that night we slept and 759 00:43:50,725 --> 00:43:55,845 Speaker 1: we woke up early before dawn and left to go 760 00:43:56,365 --> 00:44:00,765 Speaker 1: to the airport, and we dropped Dad off on the way, 761 00:44:01,565 --> 00:44:06,965 Speaker 1: kind of in the middle of this road and said 762 00:44:07,005 --> 00:44:12,165 Speaker 1: Doug goodbyes, and without knowing if we would see him again, 763 00:44:12,285 --> 00:44:14,085 Speaker 1: or when we'd see him again, or what he was 764 00:44:14,125 --> 00:44:16,445 Speaker 1: going to do, but knowing that this was really the 765 00:44:16,605 --> 00:44:22,885 Speaker 1: end of the whole journey. And I don't remember. Weirdly, 766 00:44:22,925 --> 00:44:26,005 Speaker 1: I don't remember the flight home at all, like, not 767 00:44:26,205 --> 00:44:28,485 Speaker 1: one thing about it. My sister has different details. We 768 00:44:28,485 --> 00:44:31,165 Speaker 1: were sunburned apparently, and someone gave us something for a sunburn, 769 00:44:31,245 --> 00:44:35,085 Speaker 1: but I don't remember any of it at all until 770 00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:39,205 Speaker 1: we got back home and Mom was waiting for us. 771 00:44:39,845 --> 00:44:42,165 Speaker 2: Had she been arrested? Your mom when the police had 772 00:44:42,165 --> 00:44:42,965 Speaker 2: come to the house. 773 00:44:43,565 --> 00:44:47,485 Speaker 1: Yes, they had come to the house, and they had 774 00:44:47,525 --> 00:44:52,445 Speaker 1: been tipped off by one of Dad's associates. That Dad 775 00:44:52,445 --> 00:44:56,445 Speaker 1: always spent my birthday with him, and that was the 776 00:44:56,445 --> 00:44:58,645 Speaker 1: tip they've been waiting for. One of the reasons why 777 00:44:58,685 --> 00:45:01,645 Speaker 1: I would felt this kind of absence of their presence 778 00:45:01,765 --> 00:45:04,245 Speaker 1: was they knew that on my birthday that he would 779 00:45:04,245 --> 00:45:06,925 Speaker 1: see me, So they waited for my birthday, and on 780 00:45:07,005 --> 00:45:10,285 Speaker 1: that day they went and found Mom and said, where 781 00:45:10,285 --> 00:45:10,845 Speaker 1: are your kids? 782 00:45:11,285 --> 00:45:16,045 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know an amazing thing, as you're telling me that. 783 00:45:18,325 --> 00:45:20,245 Speaker 2: I was rooting. 784 00:45:20,085 --> 00:45:27,285 Speaker 3: So hard for your dad that even through you introducing 785 00:45:27,445 --> 00:45:31,885 Speaker 3: me to him like this, the power of him as 786 00:45:31,925 --> 00:45:35,485 Speaker 3: a character and his force of life is so strong 787 00:45:35,925 --> 00:45:37,845 Speaker 3: that I know that he's a criminal, and I know 788 00:45:37,925 --> 00:45:43,165 Speaker 3: he's doing criminal things. I really wanted him to not 789 00:45:43,165 --> 00:45:43,925 Speaker 3: get arrested. 790 00:45:44,245 --> 00:45:52,445 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's hard not to root for him. 791 00:45:52,565 --> 00:45:57,765 Speaker 1: That is, he's a good guy. He's a loving good guy. 792 00:45:58,605 --> 00:46:04,765 Speaker 1: And I know that he committed this crime, which isn't it. 793 00:46:04,925 --> 00:46:09,205 Speaker 1: You know, he's an enormous amount of pot into the US, 794 00:46:09,925 --> 00:46:15,045 Speaker 1: but pot's legal now. And there's also a sense to 795 00:46:15,085 --> 00:46:18,245 Speaker 1: which I'm not justifying him breaking the law, but he 796 00:46:18,525 --> 00:46:22,045 Speaker 1: believed that what he was doing was harmless, and I 797 00:46:22,045 --> 00:46:24,205 Speaker 1: think something that me and him had to work through 798 00:46:24,885 --> 00:46:30,285 Speaker 1: over the years after that time when I was as 799 00:46:30,325 --> 00:46:32,205 Speaker 1: a teenager, very angry. 800 00:46:35,005 --> 00:46:37,285 Speaker 2: That wasn't the end of my conversation with Tyler. 801 00:46:38,085 --> 00:46:41,765 Speaker 3: In part two of Tyler's movie, Like Real Life Story, 802 00:46:42,325 --> 00:46:45,365 Speaker 3: we go into when her father went to prison and 803 00:46:45,405 --> 00:46:48,845 Speaker 3: what it was like to visit him, and years later 804 00:46:49,525 --> 00:46:52,205 Speaker 3: she sat down with him to document his life story, 805 00:46:52,245 --> 00:46:55,325 Speaker 3: which would pave the way for her debut book, No 806 00:46:55,445 --> 00:46:59,805 Speaker 3: Way Home, a Memoir of Life on the Run. Tyler 807 00:46:59,885 --> 00:47:02,925 Speaker 3: also has a new book out. It's called Amphibian. If 808 00:47:02,965 --> 00:47:04,565 Speaker 3: you'd like to read it, there's a link in our 809 00:47:04,605 --> 00:47:08,525 Speaker 3: show notes. See you in part two. Follow the link 810 00:47:08,525 --> 00:47:09,285 Speaker 3: in the show notes.