1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,134 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:18,974 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,734 --> 00:00:22,934 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:23,094 --> 00:00:26,494 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, 6 00:00:26,534 --> 00:00:31,294 Speaker 1: The Quickie. Mark Zuckerberg's leadership of Meta has recently drawn 7 00:00:31,374 --> 00:00:36,694 Speaker 1: widespread criticism and concern from experts, regulators, and fellow tech leaders, 8 00:00:36,894 --> 00:00:40,774 Speaker 1: raising serious questions about the company's impact on global democracy 9 00:00:41,014 --> 00:00:44,694 Speaker 1: and social discourse. With a shift towards a Trumpian style 10 00:00:44,774 --> 00:00:47,974 Speaker 1: rhetoric from Zuckerberg, who this week sat alongside Elon Mask, 11 00:00:48,094 --> 00:00:51,534 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and others at the presidential inauguration, should we 12 00:00:51,614 --> 00:00:54,254 Speaker 1: be more concerned about the future of our interactions on 13 00:00:54,294 --> 00:00:57,894 Speaker 1: his social media platforms. Today, we speak to futurist and 14 00:00:57,974 --> 00:01:00,934 Speaker 1: a Sulman Nilssen about whether Mark Zuckerberg is in fact 15 00:01:01,174 --> 00:01:04,054 Speaker 1: the most dangerous man in tech right now. But before 16 00:01:04,094 --> 00:01:06,374 Speaker 1: we do that, let's check in with the Quicki newsroom. Thursday, 17 00:01:06,454 --> 00:01:09,934 Speaker 1: January twenty three, Prince Harry has claimed victory in court 18 00:01:09,974 --> 00:01:13,814 Speaker 1: after Rupert Murdoch's UK tabloids delivered an apology for spending 19 00:01:13,854 --> 00:01:16,254 Speaker 1: years intruding on his life to get a story and 20 00:01:16,294 --> 00:01:19,734 Speaker 1: agreeing to pay substantial damages to settle the lawsuit against them. 21 00:01:20,174 --> 00:01:24,094 Speaker 1: Newsgroup Newspapers acknowledged that their journalists and private investigators put 22 00:01:24,134 --> 00:01:28,614 Speaker 1: Harry under surveillance, misused private information, and hacked into his phone, 23 00:01:28,894 --> 00:01:32,654 Speaker 1: offering a full and unequivocal apology for the intrusion. Harry 24 00:01:32,694 --> 00:01:34,694 Speaker 1: has said it wasn't about the money for him, it 25 00:01:34,774 --> 00:01:37,734 Speaker 1: was more about getting the truth. Newsgroup. Admitting to phone 26 00:01:37,774 --> 00:01:39,894 Speaker 1: hacking by staff at the now defunct News of the 27 00:01:39,894 --> 00:01:43,094 Speaker 1: World isn't new, but acknowledging wrongdoing by staff at The 28 00:01:43,134 --> 00:01:45,974 Speaker 1: Sun is the first time the company is accepted wrongdoing 29 00:01:46,054 --> 00:01:49,214 Speaker 1: by the publication. The settlement amount hasn't been declared, but 30 00:01:49,254 --> 00:01:52,334 Speaker 1: it's believed to be around eight figures. On day two 31 00:01:52,374 --> 00:01:55,814 Speaker 1: of the new administration, President Trump has ordered all federal Diversity, 32 00:01:55,854 --> 00:01:59,094 Speaker 1: Equity and Inclusion staff be placed on immediate paid leave 33 00:01:59,214 --> 00:02:02,774 Speaker 1: and eventually have their employment terminated. Trump called the programs 34 00:02:02,814 --> 00:02:06,414 Speaker 1: under which these people were hired discrimination and insisted merit 35 00:02:06,414 --> 00:02:09,534 Speaker 1: based hiring be reinstated. In other moves, on day time 36 00:02:09,574 --> 00:02:13,934 Speaker 1: to the Trump administration canceled refugee resettlement until further notice, 37 00:02:14,094 --> 00:02:16,454 Speaker 1: leaving those who'd been given approval to travel to the 38 00:02:16,574 --> 00:02:19,454 Speaker 1: US before a January twenty seven deadline, High and dry. 39 00:02:19,814 --> 00:02:22,814 Speaker 1: Amongst those impacted as sixteen hundred people who were fleeing 40 00:02:22,854 --> 00:02:25,934 Speaker 1: the rule of the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Pentagon is 41 00:02:26,014 --> 00:02:29,414 Speaker 1: also sending approximately fifteen hundred troops to help secure the 42 00:02:29,534 --> 00:02:32,534 Speaker 1: US Mexico border. The deployment order is set to be 43 00:02:32,614 --> 00:02:35,534 Speaker 1: signed today. What role those troops will play exactly is 44 00:02:35,574 --> 00:02:38,414 Speaker 1: not yet clear, but they're expected to support border patrol 45 00:02:38,454 --> 00:02:42,974 Speaker 1: agents with logistics, transportation, and construction of new barriers. Meanwhile, 46 00:02:43,014 --> 00:02:46,454 Speaker 1: the Justice Department is directing its prosecutors to investigate whether 47 00:02:46,494 --> 00:02:49,934 Speaker 1: they can lay criminal charges against any state or local 48 00:02:49,974 --> 00:02:52,174 Speaker 1: officials who try to stand up to the changes in 49 00:02:52,214 --> 00:02:55,734 Speaker 1: immigration laws. The Trump team have also started to remove 50 00:02:55,774 --> 00:02:59,574 Speaker 1: crucial sections of the White House website, including the Constitution 51 00:03:00,094 --> 00:03:02,934 Speaker 1: and the Spanish language version of the site. The Spanish 52 00:03:02,974 --> 00:03:04,934 Speaker 1: version of the White House's account on x and the 53 00:03:04,974 --> 00:03:09,934 Speaker 1: government page on reproductive freedom were also taken down. Called 54 00:03:09,974 --> 00:03:12,374 Speaker 1: for an apology from the bishop who delivered the service 55 00:03:12,414 --> 00:03:15,694 Speaker 1: attended by the entire Trump team and families in Washington. 56 00:03:16,134 --> 00:03:19,014 Speaker 1: Reverend Marianne Buard called on Trump to have mercy on 57 00:03:19,054 --> 00:03:23,174 Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus community and migrants in the country illegally. 58 00:03:23,534 --> 00:03:26,094 Speaker 1: Trump hit back on his truth social accounts, saying Bard 59 00:03:26,134 --> 00:03:29,654 Speaker 1: is a radical left, hardline Trump hater, nasty in tone, 60 00:03:29,734 --> 00:03:32,654 Speaker 1: and not compelling or smart, calling on both her and 61 00:03:32,694 --> 00:03:35,054 Speaker 1: the Church to issue an apology to both him and 62 00:03:35,094 --> 00:03:38,814 Speaker 1: the public. There's speculation that those using Mark Zuckerberg's meta 63 00:03:38,894 --> 00:03:42,774 Speaker 1: social media platforms are being automatically set to follow Donald Trump. 64 00:03:43,054 --> 00:03:46,374 Speaker 1: It's believed that if you followed the original official presidential accounts, 65 00:03:46,374 --> 00:03:48,974 Speaker 1: then you've been auto set to switch to Trump. A 66 00:03:48,974 --> 00:03:51,734 Speaker 1: Meta spokesperson saying this is not their doing. Rather, the 67 00:03:51,734 --> 00:03:54,734 Speaker 1: White House's archive for the old accounts and their posts 68 00:03:54,774 --> 00:03:57,454 Speaker 1: and followers have been transferred to the new official accounts. 69 00:03:57,694 --> 00:04:00,454 Speaker 1: The same thing is also happening. If you followed Kamala Harris, 70 00:04:00,494 --> 00:04:01,494 Speaker 1: you now follow jd. 71 00:04:01,694 --> 00:04:02,014 Speaker 3: Vance. 72 00:04:02,294 --> 00:04:04,014 Speaker 1: It's now up to you if you want to continue 73 00:04:04,054 --> 00:04:06,294 Speaker 1: to have their content in your feed, You'll have to 74 00:04:06,374 --> 00:04:09,174 Speaker 1: actively go into your account and unfollow or leave as 75 00:04:09,254 --> 00:04:12,574 Speaker 1: is justin. Baldoni's lawyers have released raw footage from the 76 00:04:12,574 --> 00:04:14,494 Speaker 1: set of It Ends with Us, saying it proves there 77 00:04:14,534 --> 00:04:17,094 Speaker 1: was no sexual harassment in a scene mentioned by Blake 78 00:04:17,174 --> 00:04:20,014 Speaker 1: Lively in her lawsuit. In the ten minutes of footage 79 00:04:20,014 --> 00:04:22,774 Speaker 1: you can see Lively in Baldoni's slow dancing. They're both 80 00:04:22,814 --> 00:04:25,374 Speaker 1: miked up and talking, although the audio isn't used in 81 00:04:25,414 --> 00:04:28,334 Speaker 1: the film. They're discussing whether just staring at each other 82 00:04:28,454 --> 00:04:30,214 Speaker 1: is the right thing to do in that moment or 83 00:04:30,254 --> 00:04:32,814 Speaker 1: to talk, Blake saying it's better to talk because the 84 00:04:32,854 --> 00:04:35,774 Speaker 1: audience will never know what they're saying. Baldoni leans in 85 00:04:35,854 --> 00:04:38,254 Speaker 1: several times and rubs his face on her neck and 86 00:04:38,334 --> 00:04:41,294 Speaker 1: comments about how good her spray t TND smells before 87 00:04:41,294 --> 00:04:44,374 Speaker 1: they lean forehead to forehead, Lively saying it felt weird 88 00:04:44,414 --> 00:04:47,414 Speaker 1: because it was all noses. Baldoni then says his nose 89 00:04:47,494 --> 00:04:50,054 Speaker 1: is so big, and Lively jokes about taking a break 90 00:04:50,054 --> 00:04:52,854 Speaker 1: from filming to get it fixed. Baldoni's lawyer's claim it 91 00:04:52,894 --> 00:04:54,774 Speaker 1: shows this scene was not as it was laid out 92 00:04:54,774 --> 00:04:57,254 Speaker 1: in Lively's version of events, but her lawyers say it 93 00:04:57,294 --> 00:05:00,574 Speaker 1: shows exactly as she described him leaning in and touching 94 00:05:00,574 --> 00:05:03,534 Speaker 1: her in ways that weren't discussed previously and without an 95 00:05:03,614 --> 00:05:06,374 Speaker 1: intimacy coach, and that creepy comments were made about her 96 00:05:06,574 --> 00:05:09,494 Speaker 1: smell that made her feel uncomfortable. That's your latest new 97 00:05:09,614 --> 00:05:12,254 Speaker 1: said lines. Next is Mark Zuckerberg, who seems to be 98 00:05:12,294 --> 00:05:15,214 Speaker 1: shifting into a very Trump like style in twenty twenty five, 99 00:05:15,574 --> 00:05:17,934 Speaker 1: a danger to us as we continue to use his 100 00:05:18,014 --> 00:05:31,574 Speaker 1: social media platforms. There's a good chance that every single 101 00:05:31,614 --> 00:05:35,214 Speaker 1: person you know uses one of Meta's social media platforms, 102 00:05:35,414 --> 00:05:40,534 Speaker 1: whether it's Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp, Instagram, reels, threads, reality labs 103 00:05:40,534 --> 00:05:44,174 Speaker 1: are Oculus, you helped Mark Zuckerberg bring in sixty five 104 00:05:44,254 --> 00:05:48,774 Speaker 1: point four billion dollars in twenty twenty three. Metas platforms, 105 00:05:48,854 --> 00:05:53,054 Speaker 1: particularly Facebook and Instagram, have become breeding grounds for misinformation 106 00:05:53,134 --> 00:05:56,574 Speaker 1: in recent years. Fact during the COVID pandemic, it got 107 00:05:56,614 --> 00:06:01,174 Speaker 1: so bad that metas fact checkers worked NonStop to identify misinformation, 108 00:06:01,494 --> 00:06:04,134 Speaker 1: review the content, and then raise it with Meta. If 109 00:06:04,174 --> 00:06:08,014 Speaker 1: it deemed they were factually incorrect. In cases like this, 110 00:06:08,254 --> 00:06:12,414 Speaker 1: Meta would then signific reduce that contents distribution so that 111 00:06:12,494 --> 00:06:14,934 Speaker 1: less people see it. They also tell those who have 112 00:06:15,014 --> 00:06:17,854 Speaker 1: shared it that it's false by applying a warning label 113 00:06:18,014 --> 00:06:21,014 Speaker 1: linking to the fact checks article and disproving the claim. 114 00:06:21,534 --> 00:06:23,134 Speaker 1: On metasine website, it says this. 115 00:06:23,894 --> 00:06:26,694 Speaker 4: We know this program is working and people find value 116 00:06:26,694 --> 00:06:29,534 Speaker 4: in the warning screens we apply to content after a 117 00:06:29,654 --> 00:06:33,454 Speaker 4: fact checking partner has rated it. We surveyed people who 118 00:06:33,534 --> 00:06:36,654 Speaker 4: had seen these warning screens on platform and found that 119 00:06:36,694 --> 00:06:38,934 Speaker 4: seventy four percent of people thought they saw the right 120 00:06:38,974 --> 00:06:42,454 Speaker 4: amount or were open to seeing more false information labels, 121 00:06:42,854 --> 00:06:45,654 Speaker 4: with sixty three percent of people thinking they were applied fairly. 122 00:06:46,734 --> 00:06:49,334 Speaker 1: But all that is about to change. 123 00:06:49,494 --> 00:06:51,934 Speaker 5: I want to talk about something important today because it's 124 00:06:51,974 --> 00:06:54,454 Speaker 5: time to get back to our roots around free expression 125 00:06:54,494 --> 00:06:58,374 Speaker 5: on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social media to 126 00:06:58,374 --> 00:07:00,694 Speaker 5: give people a voice, but a lot has happened over 127 00:07:00,694 --> 00:07:04,414 Speaker 5: the last several years. There's been widespread debate about potential 128 00:07:04,454 --> 00:07:08,214 Speaker 5: harms from online content. Governments and legacy media have pushed 129 00:07:08,214 --> 00:07:10,894 Speaker 5: to censor more and more. A lot of this is 130 00:07:10,934 --> 00:07:14,054 Speaker 5: clearly political, but there's also a lot of legitimately bad 131 00:07:14,094 --> 00:07:16,454 Speaker 5: stuff out there. So we built a lot of complex 132 00:07:16,494 --> 00:07:20,014 Speaker 5: systems to moderate content. But the problem with complex systems 133 00:07:20,094 --> 00:07:23,134 Speaker 5: is they make mistakes. Even if they accidentally censor just 134 00:07:23,214 --> 00:07:26,414 Speaker 5: one percent of posts, that's millions of people, and we've 135 00:07:26,414 --> 00:07:28,934 Speaker 5: reached a point where it's just too many mistakes and 136 00:07:28,974 --> 00:07:31,654 Speaker 5: too much censorship. First, we're going to get rid of 137 00:07:31,734 --> 00:07:35,174 Speaker 5: fact checkers and replace them with community notes similar to 138 00:07:35,414 --> 00:07:39,054 Speaker 5: x starting in the US. Second, we're going to simplify 139 00:07:39,094 --> 00:07:41,254 Speaker 5: our content policies and get rid of a bunch of 140 00:07:41,254 --> 00:07:44,694 Speaker 5: restrictions on topics like immigration and gender that are just 141 00:07:44,814 --> 00:07:48,654 Speaker 5: out of touch with mainstream discourse. Third, we're changing how 142 00:07:48,694 --> 00:07:52,014 Speaker 5: we enforce our policies to reduce the mistakes that account 143 00:07:52,094 --> 00:07:55,414 Speaker 5: for the vast majority of censorship on our platforms. Fourth, 144 00:07:55,894 --> 00:07:59,694 Speaker 5: we're bringing back civic content. Fifth, we're going to move 145 00:07:59,814 --> 00:08:04,014 Speaker 5: our trust and safety and content moderation teams out of California, 146 00:08:04,494 --> 00:08:06,414 Speaker 5: and our US based content review is going to be 147 00:08:06,454 --> 00:08:09,734 Speaker 5: based in Texas. Finally, we're going to work with present 148 00:08:09,774 --> 00:08:12,814 Speaker 5: Trump to push back on governments around the world. They're 149 00:08:12,854 --> 00:08:16,094 Speaker 5: going after American companies and pushing to censor more. 150 00:08:17,854 --> 00:08:20,734 Speaker 1: There are now concerns that this will allow a greater 151 00:08:20,814 --> 00:08:24,654 Speaker 1: amount of misinformation to spread, especially when the platform's algorithm 152 00:08:24,734 --> 00:08:28,774 Speaker 1: driven content distribution system has already been criticized for creating 153 00:08:28,774 --> 00:08:34,134 Speaker 1: echo chambers and amplifying divisive content. Former Facebook employee Francis 154 00:08:34,134 --> 00:08:38,694 Speaker 1: Hogan revealed that the company consistently chose profits over public safety, 155 00:08:38,974 --> 00:08:43,734 Speaker 1: stating that Facebook's products harm children, stoke division, and weakened democracy. 156 00:08:44,614 --> 00:08:46,974 Speaker 1: We've also seen a radical change in the way Zuckerberg 157 00:08:47,054 --> 00:08:50,334 Speaker 1: has been speaking publicly. He recently appeared on the Joe 158 00:08:50,374 --> 00:08:52,854 Speaker 1: Rogan podcast, where Donald Trump had been a guest just 159 00:08:52,894 --> 00:08:55,814 Speaker 1: a few months before, saying it was time to change 160 00:08:55,894 --> 00:08:59,934 Speaker 1: up the workplace further by reducing diversity, equity and inclusion 161 00:08:59,974 --> 00:09:02,694 Speaker 1: initiatives to bring in a more masculine energy. 162 00:09:03,254 --> 00:09:06,534 Speaker 6: The kind of masculine energy I think is good. Yeah, obviously, 163 00:09:06,854 --> 00:09:08,974 Speaker 6: you know, society has plenty of that, but I think 164 00:09:09,014 --> 00:09:12,214 Speaker 6: corporate was really like trying to get away from it. 165 00:09:12,894 --> 00:09:16,294 Speaker 6: And I do think that there's just something that it's like, 166 00:09:16,574 --> 00:09:19,414 Speaker 6: all these forms of energy are good, and I think 167 00:09:19,454 --> 00:09:23,294 Speaker 6: having a culture that celebrates the aggression a bit more 168 00:09:23,814 --> 00:09:26,334 Speaker 6: has its own merits. It's one thing to say we 169 00:09:26,374 --> 00:09:28,414 Speaker 6: want to be kind of like welcoming and make a 170 00:09:28,414 --> 00:09:31,334 Speaker 6: good environment for everyone, and I think it's another to 171 00:09:31,854 --> 00:09:34,574 Speaker 6: basically say that masculinity is bad. 172 00:09:36,814 --> 00:09:40,334 Speaker 1: This week also saw a Stanford law professor dropping Meta 173 00:09:40,414 --> 00:09:43,694 Speaker 1: as a client after what he called Zuckerberg's descent into 174 00:09:43,734 --> 00:09:48,934 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and neo Nazi madness. Mark Lemley, who's also 175 00:09:48,974 --> 00:09:51,894 Speaker 1: a partner of the law firm Lex Lumina, represented Meta 176 00:09:51,974 --> 00:09:55,494 Speaker 1: in their twenty twenty three AI copyright case that involved 177 00:09:55,494 --> 00:09:59,254 Speaker 1: comedian Sarah Silverman, but took to LinkedIn recently to say 178 00:09:59,374 --> 00:10:01,934 Speaker 1: he'll now no longer take on any more of their business, 179 00:10:02,214 --> 00:10:05,334 Speaker 1: nor continue with the current case, firing them as a client, 180 00:10:05,494 --> 00:10:07,414 Speaker 1: because while he thinks they are on the right side 181 00:10:07,414 --> 00:10:10,894 Speaker 1: of the generative AI copyright dispute, he cannot in good 182 00:10:10,934 --> 00:10:14,974 Speaker 1: conscience serve as their lawyer any longer. Lenley also wrote 183 00:10:14,974 --> 00:10:18,174 Speaker 1: that he's deactivating his Thread's account, one of Mehta's platforms, 184 00:10:18,334 --> 00:10:20,974 Speaker 1: because he didn't want to support a Twitter like site 185 00:10:21,054 --> 00:10:25,014 Speaker 1: run by a Musk wannabee. He also considered deactivating Facebook, 186 00:10:25,094 --> 00:10:27,574 Speaker 1: but lamented that he finds great value in the connections 187 00:10:27,574 --> 00:10:32,894 Speaker 1: and friends he's established on the platform. Meta donated one 188 00:10:32,974 --> 00:10:36,054 Speaker 1: million dollars to Donald Trump's campaign to become president again, 189 00:10:36,414 --> 00:10:39,934 Speaker 1: despite back in twenty twenty Zuckerberg saying he was deeply 190 00:10:40,054 --> 00:10:44,494 Speaker 1: shaken and disgusted by President Trump's divisive and incendiary rhetoric. 191 00:10:45,294 --> 00:10:48,094 Speaker 1: He back then had Trump's Facebook account barred for praising 192 00:10:48,134 --> 00:10:51,454 Speaker 1: people engaged in violence of the Capitol on January sixth, 193 00:10:51,854 --> 00:10:55,774 Speaker 1: that decision was reversed two years later, So we're removing 194 00:10:55,814 --> 00:10:58,814 Speaker 1: fact checkers, bringing in a masculine energy and sidling up 195 00:10:58,814 --> 00:11:02,014 Speaker 1: to Trump make metas platforms a less safe place to be. 196 00:11:03,214 --> 00:11:06,134 Speaker 1: Ander Sawmon Nilsen is a futurist and expert in AI 197 00:11:06,214 --> 00:11:08,974 Speaker 1: and technology, and as there's been a lot of conversation 198 00:11:09,014 --> 00:11:11,214 Speaker 1: around Marx's Zuckerberg of late and that he is one 199 00:11:11,214 --> 00:11:13,814 Speaker 1: of the most dangerous men in tech, would you agree 200 00:11:13,854 --> 00:11:14,534 Speaker 1: with that statement? 201 00:11:14,934 --> 00:11:17,494 Speaker 2: Well, listen, that notion has been around for some time 202 00:11:17,574 --> 00:11:22,294 Speaker 2: from my colleague Scott Galloway, who twenty sixteen said this 203 00:11:22,454 --> 00:11:26,134 Speaker 2: exact thing, that he's the most dangerous person in technology. 204 00:11:26,414 --> 00:11:28,854 Speaker 2: I feel like it's a little bit of hyperbole. I 205 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:33,174 Speaker 2: think there are other, probably more mercurial CEOs that might 206 00:11:33,334 --> 00:11:35,494 Speaker 2: be even bigger threats and who cose you up even 207 00:11:35,494 --> 00:11:38,854 Speaker 2: more to politicians. The idea here is that if you're 208 00:11:38,934 --> 00:11:42,054 Speaker 2: essentially having an influence on say, you know three billion 209 00:11:42,134 --> 00:11:44,934 Speaker 2: people that are our Facebook users, and of course you've 210 00:11:44,974 --> 00:11:48,814 Speaker 2: got WhatsApp and instagrammers are the parts of that triumvirate, 211 00:11:49,174 --> 00:11:51,654 Speaker 2: you know you are controlling a lot of media, and 212 00:11:51,974 --> 00:11:54,014 Speaker 2: they take a lot of pride and the fact that 213 00:11:54,054 --> 00:11:57,534 Speaker 2: they don't have the same accountability and the same sort 214 00:11:57,534 --> 00:12:01,254 Speaker 2: of publishing ethos as the incumbent and the legacy media. 215 00:12:01,534 --> 00:12:05,094 Speaker 2: There's a saying from the media futurist Marshall mccluan that 216 00:12:05,134 --> 00:12:08,774 Speaker 2: we shape our technology and then the technology shapes us. 217 00:12:08,974 --> 00:12:11,574 Speaker 2: And I think when it comes to social media, certainly, 218 00:12:11,734 --> 00:12:14,654 Speaker 2: you know, the culture of social media has been one 219 00:12:14,694 --> 00:12:16,734 Speaker 2: that's been shaping how we live our lives, and this 220 00:12:16,774 --> 00:12:20,174 Speaker 2: gives rise to very deep concerns about our psychology and 221 00:12:20,214 --> 00:12:23,494 Speaker 2: our behavior. A great read on this is Jonathan Heights 222 00:12:23,574 --> 00:12:27,774 Speaker 2: The Anxious Generation, which points out the psychological damage that 223 00:12:27,854 --> 00:12:30,654 Speaker 2: social media has been doing to kids over the last 224 00:12:31,054 --> 00:12:34,574 Speaker 2: fifteen odd years. And you know, there are other books 225 00:12:34,574 --> 00:12:36,894 Speaker 2: that I would recommend to your listeners as well, such 226 00:12:36,934 --> 00:12:41,334 Speaker 2: as Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zubah, for example, which essentially 227 00:12:41,414 --> 00:12:42,934 Speaker 2: argues that if something is for. 228 00:12:42,854 --> 00:12:45,774 Speaker 3: Free online, you're the product. 229 00:12:45,814 --> 00:12:49,374 Speaker 2: In other words, your data is being sold to advertisers, 230 00:12:49,374 --> 00:12:53,534 Speaker 2: so essentially you can remain within this loop of constantly 231 00:12:53,654 --> 00:12:57,174 Speaker 2: consuming content and spending your money in a way that's very, 232 00:12:57,294 --> 00:13:01,214 Speaker 2: very gamified. So these are, of course some of the concerns. 233 00:13:01,254 --> 00:13:04,374 Speaker 2: And I think the handholding and the coosing up of 234 00:13:04,494 --> 00:13:08,454 Speaker 2: Trump that we now see by Mark Zuckerberg is a 235 00:13:08,454 --> 00:13:11,294 Speaker 2: real sort of nod to towards less a fair or 236 00:13:11,334 --> 00:13:16,814 Speaker 2: neoliberal capitalism where anything goes the cultural tipping point, as 237 00:13:16,854 --> 00:13:20,454 Speaker 2: he alludes to in the recent US election win by 238 00:13:20,574 --> 00:13:24,054 Speaker 2: Trump as a sort of a whole scale, you know, 239 00:13:24,214 --> 00:13:27,014 Speaker 2: shift of going, Hey, let's get rid of fact checkers. 240 00:13:27,574 --> 00:13:28,614 Speaker 3: We've gone far. 241 00:13:28,574 --> 00:13:32,214 Speaker 2: To left of field with the sort of woke sentiment, 242 00:13:32,694 --> 00:13:35,414 Speaker 2: and we're now seeing a swing back towards a very 243 00:13:35,494 --> 00:13:37,734 Speaker 2: very different sentiment from Meta. 244 00:13:37,814 --> 00:13:39,294 Speaker 3: And by the way, I should say that they are 245 00:13:39,334 --> 00:13:40,414 Speaker 3: a client of mine, and I. 246 00:13:40,334 --> 00:13:43,374 Speaker 2: Would say exactly the same thing to Meta when I 247 00:13:43,454 --> 00:13:44,494 Speaker 2: speak to them as well. 248 00:13:45,134 --> 00:13:47,454 Speaker 1: Can we talk about that removal of fact checking and 249 00:13:47,494 --> 00:13:50,374 Speaker 1: the bringing in of community notes? A couple of things there. One, 250 00:13:50,694 --> 00:13:54,694 Speaker 1: how effective are community notes? It's stopping this information from spreading. 251 00:13:55,014 --> 00:13:57,134 Speaker 1: And the other side of that is why go with 252 00:13:57,174 --> 00:13:59,614 Speaker 1: community notes when that is something that was brought into 253 00:13:59,894 --> 00:14:03,814 Speaker 1: X under Elon Musk and Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg 254 00:14:03,934 --> 00:14:08,334 Speaker 1: are notoriously not friends and have even you know, been 255 00:14:08,374 --> 00:14:11,654 Speaker 1: in a potential case tried at one stage. Why go 256 00:14:11,814 --> 00:14:15,334 Speaker 1: for something that a direct competitor has kind of touted 257 00:14:15,374 --> 00:14:15,854 Speaker 1: as their thing. 258 00:14:16,494 --> 00:14:18,454 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a really really interesting move. 259 00:14:18,694 --> 00:14:21,014 Speaker 2: I think what we also know under the banner of 260 00:14:21,414 --> 00:14:25,574 Speaker 2: surveillance capitalism, and what essentially sells in the world of 261 00:14:25,614 --> 00:14:32,494 Speaker 2: social media is that inflammatory content, divisive content, and disinformation 262 00:14:33,174 --> 00:14:37,054 Speaker 2: spreads much more easily and is way more engaging and 263 00:14:37,254 --> 00:14:43,574 Speaker 2: thus way more profitable than fact based news. So in 264 00:14:43,654 --> 00:14:46,294 Speaker 2: some ways, what they're now saying is that, hey, we're 265 00:14:46,294 --> 00:14:50,094 Speaker 2: going to have this free of censorship, free expression. But 266 00:14:50,214 --> 00:14:52,334 Speaker 2: of course this is all under the guys is this 267 00:14:52,374 --> 00:14:55,214 Speaker 2: is going to be more profitable for Meta as a 268 00:14:55,254 --> 00:14:59,054 Speaker 2: company because they know that when people consume inflammatory or 269 00:14:59,214 --> 00:15:03,454 Speaker 2: very very expressive and borderline content, they're going to stay 270 00:15:03,494 --> 00:15:07,054 Speaker 2: within the loop of social media and consume more content. 271 00:15:07,134 --> 00:15:10,014 Speaker 2: As a result, there'll be more dollars in days for 272 00:15:10,134 --> 00:15:12,414 Speaker 2: the advertisers as well, And of course this is great 273 00:15:12,454 --> 00:15:13,694 Speaker 2: for their business model. 274 00:15:14,454 --> 00:15:17,214 Speaker 1: But will that be impacted the way we saw X 275 00:15:17,254 --> 00:15:20,654 Speaker 1: impacted when these shifts started to happen, because advertisers pulled 276 00:15:20,654 --> 00:15:22,934 Speaker 1: out of exit a rate of knots there and it 277 00:15:23,014 --> 00:15:24,334 Speaker 1: lost a hell of a lot of money. And I 278 00:15:24,334 --> 00:15:27,654 Speaker 1: don't know where they stand financially today. But could Facebook 279 00:15:27,654 --> 00:15:29,214 Speaker 1: face the same backlash? 280 00:15:29,254 --> 00:15:32,934 Speaker 2: I think there is a different sense of Dare I say, 281 00:15:33,454 --> 00:15:37,734 Speaker 2: at least a version of trust within the meta triumvirate 282 00:15:38,054 --> 00:15:41,694 Speaker 2: of WhatsApp and Instagram and Facebook. You know, a lot 283 00:15:41,694 --> 00:15:45,254 Speaker 2: of very very large organizations have been using these platforms 284 00:15:45,254 --> 00:15:47,454 Speaker 2: for a long time. So I do think that there 285 00:15:47,494 --> 00:15:49,774 Speaker 2: is a level of trust that is higher than what 286 00:15:49,854 --> 00:15:53,534 Speaker 2: people might feel for x or Elon Musk in this context. 287 00:15:53,734 --> 00:15:56,974 Speaker 2: But in terms of how effective these community notes will be, 288 00:15:57,174 --> 00:16:00,214 Speaker 2: there remains to be seen. We also have seen in 289 00:16:00,254 --> 00:16:04,734 Speaker 2: the past context like Wikipedia, for example, that very political 290 00:16:04,854 --> 00:16:08,454 Speaker 2: groups have been able to use more lax versions of 291 00:16:08,574 --> 00:16:12,254 Speaker 2: fact checking all their benefits, such as when neo Nazis 292 00:16:12,334 --> 00:16:16,414 Speaker 2: hijacked certain Wikipedia pages, for example, and spread disinformation. So 293 00:16:16,654 --> 00:16:19,374 Speaker 2: we are living in this sort of post truth society. 294 00:16:19,414 --> 00:16:21,974 Speaker 2: And while we had a little bit of backlash against 295 00:16:21,974 --> 00:16:25,774 Speaker 2: that when we saw Trump's first administration that six thousand 296 00:16:25,774 --> 00:16:28,774 Speaker 2: misrepresentations and lies were spread in his first year and 297 00:16:28,854 --> 00:16:32,054 Speaker 2: offers according to the Washington Post, and that is fact checked, 298 00:16:32,534 --> 00:16:35,654 Speaker 2: what we're now seeing is that these CEOs are now 299 00:16:35,734 --> 00:16:39,454 Speaker 2: relying on their sort of anti woke sentiment and an 300 00:16:39,454 --> 00:16:41,854 Speaker 2: emergence that people just want to say whatever the hell 301 00:16:41,894 --> 00:16:45,054 Speaker 2: they want and hopefully don't extend those courtesies too far. 302 00:16:45,974 --> 00:16:47,774 Speaker 1: Just finally, Anders and I don't know if you've seen this, 303 00:16:47,814 --> 00:16:51,334 Speaker 1: I presume you have. There is a misinformation campaign that's 304 00:16:51,334 --> 00:16:54,334 Speaker 1: been started by people who are unhappy with the removal 305 00:16:54,334 --> 00:16:58,334 Speaker 1: of fact checking on the meta platforms against Mark Zuckerberg himself. 306 00:16:58,814 --> 00:17:01,894 Speaker 1: Is generally accompanied by a picture of Mark Zuckerberg that's 307 00:17:01,894 --> 00:17:04,174 Speaker 1: been altered in some way, whether it's via AI or 308 00:17:04,294 --> 00:17:07,974 Speaker 1: via photoshop, and it is includes such claims as silly 309 00:17:08,014 --> 00:17:11,374 Speaker 1: as you know Mark Zuckerberg has now gotten a divorce 310 00:17:11,414 --> 00:17:14,334 Speaker 1: and has married JVN from Queer Eye through to some 311 00:17:14,414 --> 00:17:18,494 Speaker 1: really serious allegations like that he is a convicted pedophile 312 00:17:18,734 --> 00:17:21,254 Speaker 1: in a way in which they're trying to spread misinformation 313 00:17:21,294 --> 00:17:24,254 Speaker 1: about Zuckerberg himself in the hopes that he understands well 314 00:17:24,294 --> 00:17:27,534 Speaker 1: personally what this impact will have on the people who 315 00:17:27,614 --> 00:17:30,494 Speaker 1: use his platforms. One do you think that will make 316 00:17:30,574 --> 00:17:33,934 Speaker 1: any dent in what Mark Zuckerberg is doing? And two like, 317 00:17:34,014 --> 00:17:36,014 Speaker 1: potentially can you get in trouble for doing that? 318 00:17:37,134 --> 00:17:37,454 Speaker 3: Well? 319 00:17:37,534 --> 00:17:41,134 Speaker 2: I think it's a beautiful sort of campaign again showing 320 00:17:41,214 --> 00:17:43,294 Speaker 2: that you know, we shape our technology and then the 321 00:17:43,414 --> 00:17:47,054 Speaker 2: technology shapes us. As per Marshall McLuhan's quote, it is 322 00:17:47,094 --> 00:17:49,454 Speaker 2: a sort of a nice idea behind you know, you 323 00:17:49,574 --> 00:17:51,334 Speaker 2: have to have your a little bit of a taste 324 00:17:51,374 --> 00:17:54,134 Speaker 2: of your own medicine here, Mark, but will remain to 325 00:17:54,294 --> 00:17:58,054 Speaker 2: be seen whether it's actually effective or not. Sarcasm and 326 00:17:58,334 --> 00:18:01,654 Speaker 2: irony have always been part of any smart comedian or 327 00:18:01,774 --> 00:18:06,134 Speaker 2: jester's vocabulary, and you Know toolkit so to speak. We 328 00:18:06,254 --> 00:18:09,254 Speaker 2: know this from books like You Know nineteen eighty four 329 00:18:09,414 --> 00:18:14,054 Speaker 2: or others that when we see great comedy and great 330 00:18:14,334 --> 00:18:18,334 Speaker 2: technologies being used in a smart fashion, people can wake 331 00:18:18,454 --> 00:18:20,174 Speaker 2: up and realize. 332 00:18:19,574 --> 00:18:21,054 Speaker 3: The errors of their ways. 333 00:18:21,134 --> 00:18:24,734 Speaker 2: Whereas whether this will have a bite on Mark Zuckerberg 334 00:18:25,294 --> 00:18:28,494 Speaker 2: again remains to be seen, and the future will tell us. 335 00:18:30,894 --> 00:18:33,814 Speaker 1: If you don't want to participate in Mark Zuckerberg's world, 336 00:18:33,974 --> 00:18:37,174 Speaker 1: or exist in Elon Musk's sphere of influence, or concerned 337 00:18:37,174 --> 00:18:39,854 Speaker 1: about giving your data to China, then your only other 338 00:18:39,894 --> 00:18:43,294 Speaker 1: real alternative at the moment is Snapchat, the platform owned 339 00:18:43,294 --> 00:18:46,014 Speaker 1: by Evan Spiegel, who's married to our own Miranda Kerr. 340 00:18:46,614 --> 00:18:49,014 Speaker 1: Meta tried to buy it back in twenty twelve, and 341 00:18:49,054 --> 00:18:53,454 Speaker 1: when Speger refused, Zuckerberg introduced the infamous poke feature on Facebook, 342 00:18:53,614 --> 00:18:56,374 Speaker 1: which also allowed you to send picks that disappeared like 343 00:18:56,494 --> 00:18:59,774 Speaker 1: Snapchat stories would come later. It was meant to kill 344 00:18:59,774 --> 00:19:02,774 Speaker 1: the competition, but instead, Spiegel claims the move made it 345 00:19:02,814 --> 00:19:05,974 Speaker 1: seem like disappearing picks was the next big thing and 346 00:19:06,014 --> 00:19:08,454 Speaker 1: showed that Facebook was the one who was out of touch. 347 00:19:08,854 --> 00:19:11,494 Speaker 1: It was after that that Snapchat was able to shake 348 00:19:11,494 --> 00:19:14,614 Speaker 1: off its reputation of only being about sharing race epis 349 00:19:14,854 --> 00:19:21,574 Speaker 1: and became more of a player in the game. Roger McNamee, 350 00:19:21,614 --> 00:19:24,814 Speaker 1: an early Facebook investor, has become one of Zuckerberg's most 351 00:19:24,934 --> 00:19:28,414 Speaker 1: vocal critics, describing the company's business model as dangerous to 352 00:19:28,454 --> 00:19:32,614 Speaker 1: public health and democracy. Tech ethicis Tristan Harris has repeatedly 353 00:19:32,614 --> 00:19:36,454 Speaker 1: warned about Meta's attention extraction model, comparing it to digital 354 00:19:36,494 --> 00:19:40,814 Speaker 1: cocaine that manipulates human psychology. It's up to you whether 355 00:19:40,854 --> 00:19:44,494 Speaker 1: you want to partake. Thanks for taking the time to 356 00:19:44,534 --> 00:19:46,974 Speaker 1: feed your mind with us today. The quickie is produced 357 00:19:46,974 --> 00:19:49,974 Speaker 1: by me Claire Murphy and our executive producer Taylor Strano, 358 00:19:50,214 --> 00:19:52,294 Speaker 1: with audio production by Teagan Sadler.