Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
Speaker 1: recorded on. We pay our respects to elders, past, present
Speaker 1: and emerging, and feel privileged to continue the sharing of
Speaker 1: birth stories and knowledge that has been a fundamental part
Speaker 1: of indigenous culture. This episode of Diary of a Birth
Speaker 1: contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. Please listen with caution. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Cassanya Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth.
Speaker 1: I've been pretty candid about my struggles with infertility with
Speaker 1: my first baby, but after two years and IVF, we
Speaker 1: were fortunate enough to conceive. But there are many couples
Speaker 1: out there struggling for much longer, and it takes an
Speaker 1: extreme emotional and physical toll. Your life starts to work
Speaker 1: in cycles. Everything centers around it, and there's nothing more
Speaker 1: frustrating than having to cancel a transfer because something hasn't
Speaker 1: lined up.
Speaker 2: The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience
Speaker 2: because you know, I would go to all the appointments
Speaker 2: and the scans and have all the injections and then
Speaker 2: get to the transfer time and they'd say sorry, it's
Speaker 2: not thick enough, we have to cancel.
Speaker 1: After so much disappointment, Today's mum turned to sarrogacy and
Speaker 1: after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her
Speaker 1: baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mm.
Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy
Speaker 2: birth with Spencer.
Speaker 1: Becustin. First of all, your story has so much before Spencer,
Speaker 1: and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility.
Speaker 1: I guess what I really want to start with first
Speaker 1: is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before
Speaker 1: you turned to surrogacy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through
Speaker 2: gestational surrogacy, So he was born in twenty nineteen in
Speaker 2: Utah in the US. But this was after a six
Speaker 2: year infertility journey. So when my husband Ryan and I
Speaker 2: first tried to get pregnant, we thought it actually would
Speaker 2: be quite easy. We were in our early thirties, we
Speaker 2: had no fertility issues that I was aware of then,
Speaker 2: and so we just expected it to happen quite quickly.
Speaker 2: And it was after about nine months of trying to
Speaker 2: get pregnant that I became really frustrated and confused that
Speaker 2: I wasn't pregnant yet, so we went and saw a
Speaker 2: fertility specialist just to get some of the routine tests done.
Speaker 2: So Ryan had his sperm checked, I had my egg
Speaker 2: count and quality checked and everything came back normal. However,
Speaker 2: through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I had
Speaker 2: some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I was
Speaker 2: ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later,
Speaker 2: still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI, which is
Speaker 2: where they pop a cafeta up into the uterus with
Speaker 2: sperm tracking your cycle, and so I did three rounds
Speaker 2: of aUI still no pregnancy, so we then decided to
Speaker 2: move on to IVF. My first IVF transfer failed, which
Speaker 2: is quite common for the first transfer. With a second transfer,
Speaker 2: I had what's known as a pregnancy of unknown location, which,
Speaker 2: as the name suggests, the mbury had implanted somewhere in
Speaker 2: my body, but not in the uterus, so it wasn't
Speaker 2: a Bible pregnancy and not in the filopian tubes, so
Speaker 2: it wasn't a topic pregnancy, but it would have been
Speaker 2: dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. So I had metatrix E,
Speaker 2: which is a chemotherapy agent to end the pregnancy, which
Speaker 2: was a really difficult experience, and at first we did
Speaker 2: think that we were pregnant. It was the first positive
Speaker 2: pregnancy result we'd had, so obviously was a difficult time.
Speaker 2: Given I had the metatrics eight, I needed to take
Speaker 2: three months off fertility treatment as it needed time to
Speaker 2: work its way out of my body. Then for the
Speaker 2: next couple of ivy of transfers, my cycles kept getting canceled.
Speaker 2: And the reason was I had this thin endometrium lining,
Speaker 2: and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining
Speaker 2: was and why it was important. I started to research
Speaker 2: it and found that the lining is actually crucial to
Speaker 2: falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For a transfer. In Australia,
Speaker 2: the requirement is six milimeters are more to go ahead
Speaker 2: with a transfer. In the US it's about eight milimeters,
Speaker 2: and healthy lining is considered between ten to twelve millimeters,
Speaker 2: and mine was always in the fours. So whenever it
Speaker 2: was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, which is
Speaker 2: also a difficult experience because you know, I would go
Speaker 2: to all the appointments and have all the injections and
Speaker 2: then get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry,
Speaker 2: it's not thick enough, we have to cancel bought missions.
Speaker 2: So that was really difficult to go through. When it
Speaker 2: was in the fives, the lining, they were like, well,
Speaker 2: close enough is good enough, and they would go ahead
Speaker 2: with the transfer and it would fail. So I started
Speaker 2: to research myself and found out that actually close enough
Speaker 2: is not good enough. The endometrium lining is crucial, and
Speaker 2: a thick lining, you know, results in a successful transfer pregnancy,
Speaker 2: but for a thin lining, the transfer success rate is
Speaker 2: actually very low and the miscarriage rate is very high.
Speaker 2: So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, she
Speaker 2: didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, you know,
Speaker 2: people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's keep trying.
Speaker 2: So not satisfied with that answer, we actually changed to
Speaker 2: another IVF specialist, thank goodness we did, and it was
Speaker 2: actually at that very first appointment that he said to us,
Speaker 2: you know, fin lining is are rare, they're often difficult
Speaker 2: to treat, and your best chance of having a baby
Speaker 2: is through surrogacy. And that was so warming.
Speaker 1: I can imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself,
Speaker 1: so I really empathize with that feeling. Of frustration, the miscycles,
Speaker 1: the having to wait, the cancelations, and it's just constant disappointment,
Speaker 1: and it really is one of the most challenging times,
Speaker 1: not only physically on your body, but mentally and as
Speaker 1: a couple. And I really truly empathize with that process.
Speaker 1: You've decided on surrogacy, and we've had a surrogate on
Speaker 1: our show before, but they were based in Australia. You
Speaker 1: chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: about choosing a gestational surrogut in the US.
Speaker 2: Yes, So in Australia, the surrogacy process of it not
Speaker 2: as common and actually ninety two percent of people do
Speaker 2: international surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it
Speaker 2: is quite a smooth, easy process. They have sarrogacy agencies
Speaker 2: which we don't have in Australia. So we were matched
Speaker 2: quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's
Speaker 2: illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international
Speaker 2: surrogxy commercial surrogacy is illegal, and so we just found
Speaker 2: the process in America just you know, so smooth and easier,
Speaker 2: and we'd already been through so much prior to that,
Speaker 2: so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more
Speaker 2: time as well, Like by the time we got to
Speaker 2: Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying,
Speaker 2: and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart
Speaker 2: option for us.
Speaker 1: Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely?
Speaker 2: Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada.
Speaker 2: So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada,
Speaker 2: because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a
Speaker 2: longer process. There are more intended parents than there are surrogates.
Speaker 2: We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks
Speaker 2: with the surrogate, but it can take one to two
Speaker 2: years in Canada. And we transported across our embryos from
Speaker 2: Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did flow
Speaker 2: over for the first transfer, but we actually had a
Speaker 2: very negative upsetting experience in Toronto, so flew over. We'd
Speaker 2: match with this beautiful lady Julie, and we're there on
Speaker 2: the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting room
Speaker 2: and the transfer time came and went. We were so
Speaker 2: confused what was happening and we kept going up to
Speaker 2: the reception. They said, all so, ione will be with
Speaker 2: you shortly. Eventually a NICT came out and said, you know,
Speaker 2: the specialist would like to see you and Ryan and
Speaker 2: Julie in his office have a private chat. Always no,
Speaker 2: that's never a good sign. Went into his office and
Speaker 2: you know, he came in. He had this grave look
Speaker 2: on his face, sat behind his desk and he said,
Speaker 2: I am so sorry, but the container of embryos that
Speaker 2: you transported across from Australia is empty. So he said,
Speaker 2: you know, we went to open the container about half
Speaker 2: an hour ago to start the thaw process and there
Speaker 2: were no embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated.
Speaker 2: We still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos
Speaker 2: is a very standard common practice. People transport eggs embryo
Speaker 2: spam every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy.
Speaker 2: And we found out that what happened to us was
Speaker 2: extremely rare, less than one percent chances of happening. And
Speaker 2: we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. No
Speaker 2: one had even heard of this happening before, so it
Speaker 2: was really devastating and at the time, I thought, this
Speaker 2: is the universe's of saying we're not meant to be parents,
Speaker 2: Like this was not a scenario I ever dreamed that
Speaker 2: would be possible. So that was our initial sarrogacy experience,
Speaker 2: and believe it or not, we did actually continue to
Speaker 2: pursue sarrogacy in Canada. So we transported across more embryos
Speaker 2: through a different company and we did three transfers in
Speaker 2: Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and all three transfers failed.
Speaker 2: We have absolutely no idea why. There were no obvious
Speaker 2: complications with our sarrogate or anything. But after that experience,
Speaker 2: that was when we decided to change to America.
Speaker 1: How many embryos did you have at this point, did
Speaker 1: you have to go through multiple retrievals.
Speaker 2: Yes, so we had. We transported across two embryos. They
Speaker 2: were our final two at that point. So that was
Speaker 2: the other really upsetting part is in the back of
Speaker 2: my mind, I was like, what if we don't get
Speaker 2: any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more.
Speaker 2: So when we went back to got back to Australia
Speaker 2: another a collection that managed to create some more embryos.
Speaker 1: Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across You've then
Speaker 1: another egg collection moved to the States, and you described
Speaker 1: that process as being quite easy. What made it so easy.
Speaker 2: We went through the Utah Fertility Center, who were amazing,
Speaker 2: So the very first meeting that we had with them,
Speaker 2: they were so invested in helping us have a baby.
Speaker 2: They really empathized with everything we'd been to and they
Speaker 2: didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a
Speaker 2: different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that
Speaker 2: was the first part of it. We had really good
Speaker 2: patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency
Speaker 2: called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate. And
Speaker 2: the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Lea
Speaker 2: and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport
Speaker 2: and connection with them and it felt like we'd known
Speaker 2: each other forever and we just had a really good
Speaker 2: instinct and we just knew that Lea was the person
Speaker 2: who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having
Speaker 2: the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy,
Speaker 2: and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally
Speaker 2: have a baby.
Speaker 1: I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer
Speaker 1: with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Yes, so, our first transfer failed and it was on
Speaker 2: our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we
Speaker 2: had a scan at seven and a half weeks and
Speaker 2: everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, baby was
Speaker 2: measuring well, Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh,
Speaker 2: finally this is it, we finally have our baby. Everything
Speaker 2: was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at
Speaker 2: this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and
Speaker 2: given the time difference, it was three am in Utah,
Speaker 2: so we decided that Josh would video the scan and
Speaker 2: take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would
Speaker 2: give them a call. I woke up at six am
Speaker 2: and I checked my phone and there were no messages.
Speaker 2: And Leah is an excellent communicator, so I expected just
Speaker 2: to wake up to multiple messages and videos. So I
Speaker 2: just knew that something was wrong. And Ram was fast asleep,
Speaker 2: but his phone was on the bedside table and I
Speaker 2: saw a WhatsApp message from Lea's husband Josh, and all
Speaker 2: it said is I'm so sorry we've lost the baby.
Speaker 2: So obviously that was devastating. It was also really challenging
Speaker 2: with international cerrogcy because in that moment, all we wanted
Speaker 2: to do was be together, grieve together, hug each other,
Speaker 2: and we couldn't. And we learned that what had happened
Speaker 2: was a sub chronic heemotoma had caused the miscarriage, so
Speaker 2: it had cut off supply from the BLASCENTA to the baby.
Speaker 2: Chronic chemotome is quite common in pregnancy, not that common
Speaker 2: to cause miscarriage though, and they're one of those things
Speaker 2: they can't be prevented, they can't be treated. So once
Speaker 2: again I was thinking, oh, this is the universe's ways
Speaker 2: saying we're not meant to be parents. You know, something
Speaker 2: rare has happened again. So it again was a really
Speaker 2: difficult time for us to go through.
Speaker 1: You have been through a lot, and I remember with
Speaker 1: my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 1: This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed
Speaker 1: to be a mother And it is truly gut wrenching
Speaker 1: to feel that way. What gave you the strength to
Speaker 1: keep going.
Speaker 2: So I started to see a counselor who is also
Speaker 2: a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really
Speaker 2: difficult time. But really it was my husband and also
Speaker 2: a surrogate, Lea, who convinced me because they both sort
Speaker 2: of took a positive from it that we did for pregnant,
Speaker 2: that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare
Speaker 2: that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically,
Speaker 2: and there was one transfer left in the contract, so
Speaker 2: one final try, so Leah was determined to help us
Speaker 2: have a family. Ryan really wanted us to try again
Speaker 2: one final time. So I went in to the final
Speaker 2: transfer feeling a bit negative to be honest, and thinking
Speaker 2: this is not going to work, but fine, I'll just
Speaker 2: do it. We've got nothing to lose. They both went
Speaker 2: in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, fortunately they were right,
Speaker 2: and we did our final transfer and nine months later
Speaker 2: Spencer was born.
Speaker 1: Coming up.
Speaker 2: She absolutely did risk her life to help another family
Speaker 2: have a child. So I mean, I just think that
Speaker 2: surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If
Speaker 2: it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, We
Speaker 2: wouldn't have a family, So no, we owe her everything.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve
Speaker 1: week mark, which is our mark where you go, okay,
Speaker 1: we're kind of in the safe iwhere through the first trimester.
Speaker 1: What did it feel like for you and your partner
Speaker 1: and Leah in the States, like you're almost like a
Speaker 1: quad here. What was that moment of getting through that
Speaker 1: first trimester?
Speaker 2: Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt
Speaker 2: apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely
Speaker 2: felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again
Speaker 2: at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks,
Speaker 2: with every scan further and further as we progressed, the
Speaker 2: anxiety started to lower. Until Spencer was actually born and
Speaker 2: held him in my arms, I didn't feel one hundred
Speaker 2: percent joy, to be honest, which I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if you've
Speaker 2: had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think if
Speaker 2: pregnancy has come easy and you've never had a pregnancy loss,
Speaker 2: then probably from that very first pregnancy test. You're feeling
Speaker 2: excited and happy for the whole way through. But that
Speaker 2: was not my experience unfortunately.
Speaker 1: When did you end up flying over to the US.
Speaker 2: Two weeks before Spencer was born?
Speaker 1: Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a
Speaker 1: vaginal birth?
Speaker 2: Vaginal birth?
Speaker 1: Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine, Yes,
Speaker 1: so at thirty nine weeks so you were basically there
Speaker 1: in Utah waiting for her to go into labor. I
Speaker 1: mean it must have been nice to spend some time
Speaker 1: together phase to phase.
Speaker 2: It was. And we actually lived with Lea and her husband, Josh,
Speaker 2: and they're two boys for five weeks, so two weeks
Speaker 2: before Spencer was born and the three weeks after he
Speaker 2: was born, so we're all together in the same house,
Speaker 2: and it was summertime over there. Spencer was born the
Speaker 2: day after fourth of July. Fourth of July is a
Speaker 2: big holiday there, so it was actually really lovely and
Speaker 2: fun time together.
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth
Speaker 1: suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and
Speaker 1: what was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2: Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital.
Speaker 2: And her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long.
Speaker 2: Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should
Speaker 2: mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her
Speaker 2: fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous
Speaker 2: sorry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously
Speaker 2: we're all crying a lot. My mum was in the
Speaker 2: room as well. She flew over with us, and I
Speaker 2: just remember our obstetric get Spencer out and he was like,
Speaker 2: do you want to hold him? Yes, we'd just walk
Speaker 2: over and crying. And so I had the first skin
Speaker 2: on skin contact, which was absolutely beautiful. Ryan cut the cord.
Speaker 2: Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it
Speaker 2: was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. We were hugging,
Speaker 2: we were all saying I love you to each other.
Speaker 2: It was a really beautiful time.
Speaker 1: You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family,
Speaker 1: and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did
Speaker 1: that finally all kick in and you realized that you
Speaker 1: were a mother after all this time?
Speaker 2: Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him,
Speaker 2: it suddenly felt real. So, yeah, such a beautiful emotional time.
Speaker 2: And again all living together was actually really special as well.
Speaker 2: And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold
Speaker 2: hands of being parents, so they were able to show
Speaker 2: us a few things, a few tips and tricks, which
Speaker 2: was very helpful. This is how you put a napion,
Speaker 2: this is how you do a bath, all those things
Speaker 2: that you read in the books and listen to on
Speaker 2: the podcast before you're a parent, but when it actually
Speaker 2: comes to the time, you have no idea what you're doing,
Speaker 2: at least I didn't know. So that was a really
Speaker 2: lovely experience as well, doing all that together. And at
Speaker 2: three weeks we then flew back to Australia, so that
Speaker 2: also was very emotional saying goodbye to Leah and Josh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost
Speaker 1: become this blended family at this point after spending three
Speaker 1: weeks together. And Leah is obviously still recovering from birth.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask you to speak for her,
Speaker 1: but I can imagine that sort of giving over a
Speaker 1: baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be
Speaker 1: quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd
Speaker 1: done this before. Was that something that she was kind
Speaker 1: of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was something she was comfortable with.
Speaker 2: She had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that
Speaker 2: she'd had the Suragad baby for that when it came
Speaker 2: time to say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying
Speaker 2: goodbye to the parents rather than the baby, because you know,
Speaker 2: that's who she knew, that's who she spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time time with, and so I think that was
Speaker 2: true with us as well. And the night before we
Speaker 2: did fly out, though, Leah had Spencer for the night,
Speaker 2: so he slept in her bed for the night, and
Speaker 2: it was one way to let us have a really
Speaker 2: good night's sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international
Speaker 2: flight with the newborns. That was very thoughtful. But of
Speaker 2: course another part of it was her spending that quality
Speaker 2: time with Spencer, and I think it was also her
Speaker 2: way of saying goodbye, which was important. But I will
Speaker 2: add that we have obviously kept in contact. We have
Speaker 2: such a close relationship, and we moved to the US
Speaker 2: my husband's work a couple of years ago, and we
Speaker 2: moved back last year, and when we were living in
Speaker 2: the US, we did actually catch up with Lea and
Speaker 2: Josh a few times, so we spent some time at
Speaker 2: their house. Then Leah came and spent a few weeks
Speaker 2: with us. We were in North Carolina at the time,
Speaker 2: and so we actually saw each other three times in
Speaker 2: that time face to face, and then she kind of
Speaker 2: got to meet Spencer again because you know, she'd say
Speaker 2: goodbye to a three week newborn and then when we
Speaker 2: came back to the US, he was three and a half.
Speaker 2: So that was a really special experience for her. And
Speaker 2: it's interesting because, I mean we'd obviously kept in contact
Speaker 2: and done video scouts and everything, but you know, within
Speaker 2: five minutes light Lia and Spencer, they just were like
Speaker 2: the best of friends and so comfortable with each other,
Speaker 2: and it was like that known each other for years
Speaker 2: as well, So it was actually really special.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into
Speaker 1: Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre
Speaker 1: clampsia throughout the.
Speaker 2: Pregnancy, Yes, post proclampsia.
Speaker 1: Postpartum pre clamsier. Yes, So while you're living with her
Speaker 1: and she's going through this, like, how do you respond
Speaker 1: to that?
Speaker 2: So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth,
Speaker 2: she did hemorrhage and to lose about a leader of blood.
Speaker 2: They were prepared for that because that had happened previously.
Speaker 2: So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to
Speaker 2: treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because
Speaker 2: all of a sudden a team or emergency team were
Speaker 2: in the room. We were kind of shuffled out of
Speaker 2: the room. However, again they were prepared for it, so
Speaker 2: she was fine. And then her previous pregnancy as well,
Speaker 2: she'd had this post part and proclamsy up where her
Speaker 2: blood pressure would drop during the pregnancy. Her previous printance
Speaker 2: she had fainted blacked out during it, but again because
Speaker 2: that had happen previously, they were quite prepared. So she
Speaker 2: was on medication to help manage that, and she was
Speaker 2: having daily checks as well at the hospital after the birth,
Speaker 2: and so she was kind of on top of it. Also.
Speaker 2: She managed it amazing.
Speaker 1: Actually, you have this really beautiful line of that she
Speaker 1: risked her life to give us Spencer.
Speaker 2: Yes, because hemorrhaging and postpun and proclampcy are those dangerous conditions.
Speaker 2: So she absolutely did risk her life to help another
Speaker 2: family have a child. So I mean, I just think
Speaker 2: that surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2: If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son,
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have a family, So you know, we owe
Speaker 2: her everything.
Speaker 1: I mean, Spencer's five is almost six. What do you
Speaker 1: tell him about where he came from?
Speaker 2: Yes, so he doesn't actually know yet that he was
Speaker 2: born through saragacy, but that is a conversation that we're
Speaker 2: having with him, most likely in the next year. So
Speaker 2: the advice we have been given is to tell him
Speaker 2: before the age of seven, and he started prep this year,
Speaker 2: so he's transitioning into school and into prep and once
Speaker 2: he's all settled, then we will have a conversation either
Speaker 2: later this year or next year. And one of the
Speaker 2: best ways to do it is through a book, so
Speaker 2: there's lots of children's books to explain surrogacy to him.
Speaker 2: Keep it really simple as well as the advice. And
Speaker 2: he obviously knows Leah and knows who she is, so
Speaker 2: it'll be conversation of AUNTI, leiahctor mummy have you.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's very very well loved by you, especially
Speaker 1: after the ordeal that you've been through. I really admire
Speaker 1: your courage and strength through that because I can only
Speaker 1: imagine how difficult that whole process was for you, but
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful and happy that you had your happy ending.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I also wanted to talk to our resident OB and
Speaker 1: IVF specialist, doctor Bromin Devine on the importance of the
Speaker 1: thickness of the endometrial lining.
Speaker 3: You know, it's the last frontier really of getting everything
Speaker 3: right in terms of conception and the embryo traveling down
Speaker 3: the tube and getting itself into the uterus and actually
Speaker 3: implanting in the uterress. Implanting in the utress is terribly
Speaker 3: important for the health of the pregnancy and the health
Speaker 3: of the pregnancy all the way through the pregnancy because
Speaker 3: implantation problems can be associated with lots and lots of problems.
Speaker 4: In pregnancy, including having a very growth restricted baby or
Speaker 4: developing preclamsier things like that all have to do with
Speaker 4: issues around implantation. So the lining of the utress at
Speaker 4: the time of implantation has to be perfect. It has
Speaker 4: to be timed exactly right to accept the embryo at
Speaker 4: exactly the right time, and it has to be healthy
Speaker 4: and at a certain thickness that will allow implantation to
Speaker 4: take place. And this is one of the most challenging
Speaker 4: things in IVF because it can be really tricky, even
Speaker 4: with all the hormonal support that we give for some
Speaker 4: women to get a uterine lining that actually gets to
Speaker 4: a thickness that will allow a healthy implantation. And when
Speaker 4: we do IVF, if someone's uterine lining is not at
Speaker 4: a level where we can feel confident about putting a
Speaker 4: precious embryo back, we will cancel the cycle and not
Speaker 4: put the embryo back because we know the chances of
Speaker 4: that embryo taking and implanting is so much less. You know,
Speaker 4: there are some women who just for one reason or another,
Speaker 4: have a U turne lening that just doesn't respond. And
Speaker 4: we've made so much progress in the world of IVF.
Speaker 4: We're so good at creating embryos. Now, we're so good
Speaker 4: at storing embryos. We can test embryos to see if
Speaker 4: they have chromosome abnormalities, we can test embryos to see
Speaker 4: if they have genetic mutations. We can do so much
Speaker 4: stuff with IVF these days. Our culture mediums are so
Speaker 4: much better. Our techniques for collecting eggs and collecting sperm
Speaker 4: and storing things and medications that we use. Everything we
Speaker 4: do is just got better and better with time. In
Speaker 4: proving a uterine lining has been really challenging for us
Speaker 4: in the IVF world, and that's why some women have
Speaker 4: to go down the path of looking at surrogacy, which
Speaker 4: is phenomenally expensive and phenomenally challenging, but for some people,
Speaker 4: surrogacy offers them the only hope of being able to
Speaker 4: carry out pregnancy or being able to have a child.
Speaker 1: Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassanie Lukitch
Speaker 1: with expert input from Dr Bronwin Devine. If you like
Speaker 1: our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate. It goes
Speaker 1: a long way to allowing us to continue sharing your stories.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Ella Maitland and myself Cassanie Lukitch,
Speaker 1: with audio production by Tina Mattlov