WEBVTT - The Mum Whose Embryos Went Missing on her Surrogacy Journey 0:00:21.773 --> 0:00:26.452 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the 0:00:26.493 --> 0:00:29.653 traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is 0:00:29.653 --> 0:00:32.973 recorded on. We pay our respects to elders, past, present 0:00:33.132 --> 0:00:36.293 and emerging, and feel privileged to continue the sharing of 0:00:36.333 --> 0:00:39.613 birth stories and knowledge that has been a fundamental part 0:00:39.813 --> 0:00:43.453 of indigenous culture. This episode of Diary of a Birth 0:00:43.533 --> 0:00:53.733 contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. Please listen with caution. Hi. 0:00:53.933 --> 0:00:57.213 I'm Cassanya Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth. 0:00:57.893 --> 0:01:00.693 I've been pretty candid about my struggles with infertility with 0:01:00.773 --> 0:01:04.693 my first baby, but after two years and IVF, we 0:01:04.773 --> 0:01:08.172 were fortunate enough to conceive. But there are many couples 0:01:08.212 --> 0:01:11.733 out there struggling for much longer, and it takes an 0:01:11.773 --> 0:01:16.332 extreme emotional and physical toll. Your life starts to work 0:01:16.333 --> 0:01:20.413 in cycles. Everything centers around it, and there's nothing more 0:01:20.652 --> 0:01:24.973 frustrating than having to cancel a transfer because something hasn't 0:01:25.013 --> 0:01:25.493 lined up. 0:01:25.773 --> 0:01:29.292 The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience 0:01:29.372 --> 0:01:31.933 because you know, I would go to all the appointments 0:01:32.013 --> 0:01:34.053 and the scans and have all the injections and then 0:01:34.453 --> 0:01:36.733 get to the transfer time and they'd say sorry, it's 0:01:36.733 --> 0:01:38.013 not thick enough, we have to cancel. 0:01:38.453 --> 0:01:42.293 After so much disappointment, Today's mum turned to sarrogacy and 0:01:42.372 --> 0:01:45.853 after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her 0:01:45.893 --> 0:01:49.172 baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mm. 0:01:49.693 --> 0:01:52.612 Hi. I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy 0:01:52.613 --> 0:01:54.213 birth with Spencer. 0:01:59.613 --> 0:02:05.213 Becustin. First of all, your story has so much before Spencer, 0:02:05.653 --> 0:02:09.293 and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility. 0:02:09.893 --> 0:02:12.252 I guess what I really want to start with first 0:02:12.373 --> 0:02:17.453 is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before 0:02:17.493 --> 0:02:19.292 you turned to surrogacy. 0:02:19.813 --> 0:02:22.973 Yeah. So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through 0:02:23.133 --> 0:02:27.213 gestational surrogacy, So he was born in twenty nineteen in 0:02:27.532 --> 0:02:30.733 Utah in the US. But this was after a six 0:02:30.813 --> 0:02:35.093 year infertility journey. So when my husband Ryan and I 0:02:35.132 --> 0:02:38.493 first tried to get pregnant, we thought it actually would 0:02:38.532 --> 0:02:41.453 be quite easy. We were in our early thirties, we 0:02:41.493 --> 0:02:44.132 had no fertility issues that I was aware of then, 0:02:44.653 --> 0:02:47.853 and so we just expected it to happen quite quickly. 0:02:48.252 --> 0:02:50.692 And it was after about nine months of trying to 0:02:50.692 --> 0:02:55.373 get pregnant that I became really frustrated and confused that 0:02:55.412 --> 0:02:58.412 I wasn't pregnant yet, so we went and saw a 0:02:58.773 --> 0:03:02.373 fertility specialist just to get some of the routine tests done. 0:03:02.532 --> 0:03:05.973 So Ryan had his sperm checked, I had my egg 0:03:06.013 --> 0:03:10.532 count and quality checked and everything came back normal. However, 0:03:11.173 --> 0:03:14.052 through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I had 0:03:14.093 --> 0:03:18.093 some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I was 0:03:18.333 --> 0:03:23.532 ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later, 0:03:23.813 --> 0:03:27.733 still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI, which is 0:03:27.813 --> 0:03:31.253 where they pop a cafeta up into the uterus with 0:03:31.572 --> 0:03:36.013 sperm tracking your cycle, and so I did three rounds 0:03:36.013 --> 0:03:39.493 of aUI still no pregnancy, so we then decided to 0:03:39.533 --> 0:03:45.133 move on to IVF. My first IVF transfer failed, which 0:03:45.533 --> 0:03:49.653 is quite common for the first transfer. With a second transfer, 0:03:50.013 --> 0:03:55.453 I had what's known as a pregnancy of unknown location, which, 0:03:55.653 --> 0:03:59.693 as the name suggests, the mbury had implanted somewhere in 0:03:59.733 --> 0:04:01.693 my body, but not in the uterus, so it wasn't 0:04:01.693 --> 0:04:05.332 a Bible pregnancy and not in the filopian tubes, so 0:04:05.333 --> 0:04:07.853 it wasn't a topic pregnancy, but it would have been 0:04:08.013 --> 0:04:12.813 dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. So I had metatrix E, 0:04:12.933 --> 0:04:17.013 which is a chemotherapy agent to end the pregnancy, which 0:04:17.053 --> 0:04:20.613 was a really difficult experience, and at first we did 0:04:20.733 --> 0:04:22.853 think that we were pregnant. It was the first positive 0:04:22.853 --> 0:04:27.653 pregnancy result we'd had, so obviously was a difficult time. 0:04:28.693 --> 0:04:31.493 Given I had the metatrics eight, I needed to take 0:04:31.533 --> 0:04:34.013 three months off fertility treatment as it needed time to 0:04:34.013 --> 0:04:36.652 work its way out of my body. Then for the 0:04:36.693 --> 0:04:40.773 next couple of ivy of transfers, my cycles kept getting canceled. 0:04:41.453 --> 0:04:44.493 And the reason was I had this thin endometrium lining, 0:04:45.213 --> 0:04:49.613 and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining 0:04:49.813 --> 0:04:52.733 was and why it was important. I started to research 0:04:52.773 --> 0:04:56.173 it and found that the lining is actually crucial to 0:04:56.333 --> 0:05:00.853 falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For a transfer. In Australia, 0:05:00.893 --> 0:05:03.332 the requirement is six milimeters are more to go ahead 0:05:03.373 --> 0:05:06.493 with a transfer. In the US it's about eight milimeters, 0:05:06.653 --> 0:05:10.253 and healthy lining is considered between ten to twelve millimeters, 0:05:10.653 --> 0:05:13.573 and mine was always in the fours. So whenever it 0:05:13.613 --> 0:05:16.173 was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, which is 0:05:16.293 --> 0:05:19.533 also a difficult experience because you know, I would go 0:05:19.573 --> 0:05:22.373 to all the appointments and have all the injections and 0:05:22.413 --> 0:05:25.053 then get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry, 0:05:25.093 --> 0:05:27.293 it's not thick enough, we have to cancel bought missions. 0:05:27.333 --> 0:05:30.813 So that was really difficult to go through. When it 0:05:30.893 --> 0:05:33.693 was in the fives, the lining, they were like, well, 0:05:33.733 --> 0:05:36.653 close enough is good enough, and they would go ahead 0:05:36.653 --> 0:05:39.413 with the transfer and it would fail. So I started 0:05:39.453 --> 0:05:42.613 to research myself and found out that actually close enough 0:05:42.693 --> 0:05:45.853 is not good enough. The endometrium lining is crucial, and 0:05:46.453 --> 0:05:50.573 a thick lining, you know, results in a successful transfer pregnancy, 0:05:50.613 --> 0:05:53.733 but for a thin lining, the transfer success rate is 0:05:53.773 --> 0:05:56.933 actually very low and the miscarriage rate is very high. 0:05:57.693 --> 0:06:02.813 So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, she 0:06:02.853 --> 0:06:06.813 didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, you know, 0:06:06.893 --> 0:06:09.613 people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's keep trying. 0:06:10.293 --> 0:06:14.493 So not satisfied with that answer, we actually changed to 0:06:14.893 --> 0:06:19.173 another IVF specialist, thank goodness we did, and it was 0:06:19.213 --> 0:06:22.693 actually at that very first appointment that he said to us, 0:06:22.813 --> 0:06:25.333 you know, fin lining is are rare, they're often difficult 0:06:25.413 --> 0:06:28.573 to treat, and your best chance of having a baby 0:06:28.773 --> 0:06:31.453 is through surrogacy. And that was so warming. 0:06:32.333 --> 0:06:36.213 I can imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself, 0:06:36.733 --> 0:06:41.533 so I really empathize with that feeling. Of frustration, the miscycles, 0:06:41.653 --> 0:06:48.533 the having to wait, the cancelations, and it's just constant disappointment, 0:06:48.653 --> 0:06:52.813 and it really is one of the most challenging times, 0:06:52.933 --> 0:06:55.893 not only physically on your body, but mentally and as 0:06:55.893 --> 0:06:59.813 a couple. And I really truly empathize with that process. 0:07:00.493 --> 0:07:05.133 You've decided on surrogacy, and we've had a surrogate on 0:07:05.173 --> 0:07:09.413 our show before, but they were based in Australia. You 0:07:09.933 --> 0:07:13.573 chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us 0:07:13.613 --> 0:07:17.133 about choosing a gestational surrogut in the US. 0:07:17.493 --> 0:07:21.053 Yes, So in Australia, the surrogacy process of it not 0:07:21.173 --> 0:07:24.733 as common and actually ninety two percent of people do 0:07:25.213 --> 0:07:29.693 international surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it 0:07:29.853 --> 0:07:35.893 is quite a smooth, easy process. They have sarrogacy agencies 0:07:35.893 --> 0:07:38.693 which we don't have in Australia. So we were matched 0:07:38.773 --> 0:07:41.613 quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple 0:07:41.653 --> 0:07:45.653 of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's 0:07:45.653 --> 0:07:50.573 illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international 0:07:50.653 --> 0:07:55.573 surrogxy commercial surrogacy is illegal, and so we just found 0:07:55.733 --> 0:08:00.493 the process in America just you know, so smooth and easier, 0:08:00.493 --> 0:08:03.573 and we'd already been through so much prior to that, 0:08:03.933 --> 0:08:06.733 so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more 0:08:06.733 --> 0:08:08.373 time as well, Like by the time we got to 0:08:08.373 --> 0:08:13.413 Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying, 0:08:13.613 --> 0:08:17.773 and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart 0:08:17.773 --> 0:08:18.493 option for us. 0:08:18.853 --> 0:08:21.613 Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely? 0:08:22.213 --> 0:08:26.813 Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada. 0:08:26.893 --> 0:08:33.012 So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada, 0:08:33.053 --> 0:08:35.693 because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a 0:08:35.693 --> 0:08:39.012 longer process. There are more intended parents than there are surrogates. 0:08:39.253 --> 0:08:41.892 We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks 0:08:42.053 --> 0:08:43.813 with the surrogate, but it can take one to two 0:08:43.893 --> 0:08:48.213 years in Canada. And we transported across our embryos from 0:08:48.253 --> 0:08:52.013 Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did flow 0:08:52.013 --> 0:08:55.013 over for the first transfer, but we actually had a 0:08:55.133 --> 0:09:00.333 very negative upsetting experience in Toronto, so flew over. We'd 0:09:00.333 --> 0:09:04.213 match with this beautiful lady Julie, and we're there on 0:09:04.253 --> 0:09:06.853 the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting room 0:09:06.973 --> 0:09:10.013 and the transfer time came and went. We were so 0:09:10.093 --> 0:09:12.853 confused what was happening and we kept going up to 0:09:12.893 --> 0:09:14.573 the reception. They said, all so, ione will be with 0:09:14.613 --> 0:09:18.253 you shortly. Eventually a NICT came out and said, you know, 0:09:18.293 --> 0:09:20.173 the specialist would like to see you and Ryan and 0:09:20.253 --> 0:09:24.493 Julie in his office have a private chat. Always no, 0:09:24.573 --> 0:09:27.893 that's never a good sign. Went into his office and 0:09:28.293 --> 0:09:30.133 you know, he came in. He had this grave look 0:09:30.173 --> 0:09:32.413 on his face, sat behind his desk and he said, 0:09:32.413 --> 0:09:35.173 I am so sorry, but the container of embryos that 0:09:35.213 --> 0:09:40.413 you transported across from Australia is empty. So he said, 0:09:41.013 --> 0:09:43.133 you know, we went to open the container about half 0:09:43.133 --> 0:09:45.013 an hour ago to start the thaw process and there 0:09:45.053 --> 0:09:50.973 were no embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated. 0:09:51.333 --> 0:09:54.853 We still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos 0:09:54.933 --> 0:10:00.093 is a very standard common practice. People transport eggs embryo 0:10:00.173 --> 0:10:03.173 spam every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy. 0:10:03.733 --> 0:10:05.253 And we found out that what happened to us was 0:10:05.333 --> 0:10:08.333 extremely rare, less than one percent chances of happening. And 0:10:08.413 --> 0:10:11.813 we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. No 0:10:11.813 --> 0:10:14.773 one had even heard of this happening before, so it 0:10:14.893 --> 0:10:19.893 was really devastating and at the time, I thought, this 0:10:19.973 --> 0:10:22.053 is the universe's of saying we're not meant to be parents, 0:10:22.173 --> 0:10:25.053 Like this was not a scenario I ever dreamed that 0:10:25.133 --> 0:10:30.252 would be possible. So that was our initial sarrogacy experience, 0:10:30.373 --> 0:10:33.093 and believe it or not, we did actually continue to 0:10:33.133 --> 0:10:36.852 pursue sarrogacy in Canada. So we transported across more embryos 0:10:37.173 --> 0:10:41.773 through a different company and we did three transfers in 0:10:41.853 --> 0:10:46.213 Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and all three transfers failed. 0:10:46.253 --> 0:10:48.693 We have absolutely no idea why. There were no obvious 0:10:48.733 --> 0:10:53.053 complications with our sarrogate or anything. But after that experience, 0:10:53.693 --> 0:10:56.973 that was when we decided to change to America. 0:10:57.053 --> 0:10:59.413 How many embryos did you have at this point, did 0:10:59.453 --> 0:11:02.213 you have to go through multiple retrievals. 0:11:01.973 --> 0:11:06.013 Yes, so we had. We transported across two embryos. They 0:11:06.053 --> 0:11:08.693 were our final two at that point. So that was 0:11:08.693 --> 0:11:12.733 the other really upsetting part is in the back of 0:11:12.733 --> 0:11:14.813 my mind, I was like, what if we don't get 0:11:14.853 --> 0:11:18.173 any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more. 0:11:18.213 --> 0:11:20.612 So when we went back to got back to Australia 0:11:20.813 --> 0:11:24.013 another a collection that managed to create some more embryos. 0:11:24.093 --> 0:11:28.293 Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across You've then 0:11:28.333 --> 0:11:32.373 another egg collection moved to the States, and you described 0:11:32.413 --> 0:11:36.413 that process as being quite easy. What made it so easy. 0:11:36.813 --> 0:11:40.173 We went through the Utah Fertility Center, who were amazing, 0:11:40.533 --> 0:11:44.573 So the very first meeting that we had with them, 0:11:45.053 --> 0:11:48.053 they were so invested in helping us have a baby. 0:11:48.093 --> 0:11:52.573 They really empathized with everything we'd been to and they 0:11:52.613 --> 0:11:54.613 didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a 0:11:54.653 --> 0:11:58.613 different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that 0:11:58.733 --> 0:12:01.253 was the first part of it. We had really good 0:12:01.693 --> 0:12:06.013 patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency 0:12:06.173 --> 0:12:11.173 called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate. And 0:12:11.573 --> 0:12:13.973 the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Lea 0:12:14.133 --> 0:12:17.133 and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport 0:12:17.133 --> 0:12:19.653 and connection with them and it felt like we'd known 0:12:19.693 --> 0:12:23.093 each other forever and we just had a really good 0:12:23.173 --> 0:12:26.573 instinct and we just knew that Lea was the person 0:12:26.653 --> 0:12:31.253 who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having 0:12:31.533 --> 0:12:37.413 the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy, 0:12:37.413 --> 0:12:40.453 and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally 0:12:40.493 --> 0:12:41.093 have a baby. 0:12:41.453 --> 0:12:44.813 I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer 0:12:45.013 --> 0:12:49.293 with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you 0:12:49.293 --> 0:12:50.173 tell us about that? 0:12:50.613 --> 0:12:54.173 Yes, so, our first transfer failed and it was on 0:12:54.253 --> 0:12:58.533 our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we 0:12:58.613 --> 0:13:00.773 had a scan at seven and a half weeks and 0:13:01.053 --> 0:13:05.173 everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, baby was 0:13:05.173 --> 0:13:09.813 measuring well, Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh, 0:13:09.893 --> 0:13:12.732 finally this is it, we finally have our baby. Everything 0:13:13.013 --> 0:13:15.373 was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at 0:13:15.373 --> 0:13:19.133 this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and 0:13:19.693 --> 0:13:22.852 given the time difference, it was three am in Utah, 0:13:23.453 --> 0:13:26.853 so we decided that Josh would video the scan and 0:13:26.933 --> 0:13:29.453 take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would 0:13:29.493 --> 0:13:32.813 give them a call. I woke up at six am 0:13:33.093 --> 0:13:35.733 and I checked my phone and there were no messages. 0:13:36.373 --> 0:13:39.453 And Leah is an excellent communicator, so I expected just 0:13:39.533 --> 0:13:43.413 to wake up to multiple messages and videos. So I 0:13:43.493 --> 0:13:47.933 just knew that something was wrong. And Ram was fast asleep, 0:13:47.973 --> 0:13:50.893 but his phone was on the bedside table and I 0:13:50.933 --> 0:13:54.253 saw a WhatsApp message from Lea's husband Josh, and all 0:13:54.293 --> 0:13:56.373 it said is I'm so sorry we've lost the baby. 0:13:57.373 --> 0:14:02.293 So obviously that was devastating. It was also really challenging 0:14:02.813 --> 0:14:06.413 with international cerrogcy because in that moment, all we wanted 0:14:06.453 --> 0:14:09.413 to do was be together, grieve together, hug each other, 0:14:09.533 --> 0:14:13.253 and we couldn't. And we learned that what had happened 0:14:13.573 --> 0:14:17.213 was a sub chronic heemotoma had caused the miscarriage, so 0:14:17.253 --> 0:14:20.093 it had cut off supply from the BLASCENTA to the baby. 0:14:20.813 --> 0:14:24.653 Chronic chemotome is quite common in pregnancy, not that common 0:14:24.733 --> 0:14:26.973 to cause miscarriage though, and they're one of those things 0:14:27.013 --> 0:14:29.613 they can't be prevented, they can't be treated. So once 0:14:29.653 --> 0:14:33.013 again I was thinking, oh, this is the universe's ways 0:14:33.013 --> 0:14:35.453 saying we're not meant to be parents. You know, something 0:14:35.573 --> 0:14:38.973 rare has happened again. So it again was a really 0:14:39.013 --> 0:14:41.453 difficult time for us to go through. 0:14:41.813 --> 0:14:45.533 You have been through a lot, and I remember with 0:14:45.653 --> 0:14:49.333 my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me? 0:14:49.653 --> 0:14:52.333 This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed 0:14:52.413 --> 0:14:56.973 to be a mother And it is truly gut wrenching 0:14:57.493 --> 0:15:00.973 to feel that way. What gave you the strength to 0:15:01.613 --> 0:15:02.293 keep going. 0:15:02.853 --> 0:15:07.013 So I started to see a counselor who is also 0:15:07.053 --> 0:15:11.173 a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really 0:15:11.253 --> 0:15:16.213 difficult time. But really it was my husband and also 0:15:16.533 --> 0:15:20.533 a surrogate, Lea, who convinced me because they both sort 0:15:20.533 --> 0:15:22.973 of took a positive from it that we did for pregnant, 0:15:23.813 --> 0:15:26.053 that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare 0:15:26.093 --> 0:15:29.533 that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically, 0:15:30.373 --> 0:15:33.573 and there was one transfer left in the contract, so 0:15:33.653 --> 0:15:37.093 one final try, so Leah was determined to help us 0:15:37.133 --> 0:15:40.773 have a family. Ryan really wanted us to try again 0:15:40.813 --> 0:15:44.533 one final time. So I went in to the final 0:15:44.533 --> 0:15:47.653 transfer feeling a bit negative to be honest, and thinking 0:15:47.853 --> 0:15:49.533 this is not going to work, but fine, I'll just 0:15:49.813 --> 0:15:52.413 do it. We've got nothing to lose. They both went 0:15:52.453 --> 0:15:58.173 in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, fortunately they were right, 0:15:58.573 --> 0:16:01.413 and we did our final transfer and nine months later 0:16:01.493 --> 0:16:02.293 Spencer was born. 0:16:03.173 --> 0:16:03.693 Coming up. 0:16:04.293 --> 0:16:07.933 She absolutely did risk her life to help another family 0:16:07.973 --> 0:16:10.413 have a child. So I mean, I just think that 0:16:10.773 --> 0:16:15.093 surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If 0:16:15.093 --> 0:16:16.893 it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, We 0:16:16.933 --> 0:16:19.733 wouldn't have a family, So no, we owe her everything. 0:16:27.813 --> 0:16:29.893 Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first 0:16:29.933 --> 0:16:32.493 couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve 0:16:32.493 --> 0:16:35.933 week mark, which is our mark where you go, okay, 0:16:35.973 --> 0:16:38.413 we're kind of in the safe iwhere through the first trimester. 0:16:39.173 --> 0:16:42.093 What did it feel like for you and your partner 0:16:42.333 --> 0:16:44.773 and Leah in the States, like you're almost like a 0:16:44.853 --> 0:16:48.493 quad here. What was that moment of getting through that 0:16:48.573 --> 0:16:49.453 first trimester? 0:16:50.053 --> 0:16:53.933 Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt 0:16:53.933 --> 0:16:59.333 apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely 0:16:59.333 --> 0:17:01.373 felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again 0:17:01.413 --> 0:17:03.973 at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks, 0:17:04.013 --> 0:17:07.372 with every scan further and further as we progressed, the 0:17:07.413 --> 0:17:12.493 anxiety started to lower. Until Spencer was actually born and 0:17:12.733 --> 0:17:16.133 held him in my arms, I didn't feel one hundred 0:17:16.173 --> 0:17:19.453 percent joy, to be honest, which I think a lot 0:17:19.453 --> 0:17:23.573 of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if you've 0:17:23.572 --> 0:17:26.693 had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think if 0:17:26.773 --> 0:17:29.533 pregnancy has come easy and you've never had a pregnancy loss, 0:17:29.573 --> 0:17:32.653 then probably from that very first pregnancy test. You're feeling 0:17:32.813 --> 0:17:36.413 excited and happy for the whole way through. But that 0:17:36.533 --> 0:17:38.092 was not my experience unfortunately. 0:17:38.293 --> 0:17:40.853 When did you end up flying over to the US. 0:17:40.613 --> 0:17:42.333 Two weeks before Spencer was born? 0:17:42.693 --> 0:17:45.533 Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a 0:17:45.813 --> 0:17:46.693 vaginal birth? 0:17:46.893 --> 0:17:47.613 Vaginal birth? 0:17:47.813 --> 0:17:51.373 Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine, Yes, 0:17:51.493 --> 0:17:54.933 so at thirty nine weeks so you were basically there 0:17:54.933 --> 0:17:58.773 in Utah waiting for her to go into labor. I 0:17:58.773 --> 0:18:00.533 mean it must have been nice to spend some time 0:18:00.533 --> 0:18:01.612 together phase to phase. 0:18:02.213 --> 0:18:05.333 It was. And we actually lived with Lea and her husband, Josh, 0:18:05.373 --> 0:18:08.253 and they're two boys for five weeks, so two weeks 0:18:08.253 --> 0:18:11.092 before Spencer was born and the three weeks after he 0:18:11.253 --> 0:18:13.133 was born, so we're all together in the same house, 0:18:13.653 --> 0:18:16.213 and it was summertime over there. Spencer was born the 0:18:16.253 --> 0:18:18.173 day after fourth of July. Fourth of July is a 0:18:18.213 --> 0:18:21.613 big holiday there, so it was actually really lovely and 0:18:21.653 --> 0:18:22.813 fun time together. 0:18:23.133 --> 0:18:25.853 I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth 0:18:25.893 --> 0:18:30.812 suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and 0:18:31.013 --> 0:18:32.532 what was that experience like for you? 0:18:32.933 --> 0:18:36.333 Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital. 0:18:36.533 --> 0:18:41.933 And her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long. 0:18:42.293 --> 0:18:44.733 Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should 0:18:44.733 --> 0:18:47.773 mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her 0:18:47.813 --> 0:18:50.693 fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous 0:18:50.733 --> 0:18:56.173 sorry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously 0:18:56.613 --> 0:18:58.532 we're all crying a lot. My mum was in the 0:18:58.613 --> 0:19:02.613 room as well. She flew over with us, and I 0:19:02.733 --> 0:19:06.493 just remember our obstetric get Spencer out and he was like, 0:19:06.733 --> 0:19:11.213 do you want to hold him? Yes, we'd just walk 0:19:11.253 --> 0:19:13.853 over and crying. And so I had the first skin 0:19:13.893 --> 0:19:17.812 on skin contact, which was absolutely beautiful. Ryan cut the cord. 0:19:18.613 --> 0:19:21.173 Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it 0:19:21.253 --> 0:19:25.093 was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. We were hugging, 0:19:25.373 --> 0:19:27.573 we were all saying I love you to each other. 0:19:27.653 --> 0:19:29.413 It was a really beautiful time. 0:19:29.933 --> 0:19:33.653 You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family, 0:19:33.813 --> 0:19:37.893 and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did 0:19:37.933 --> 0:19:40.852 that finally all kick in and you realized that you 0:19:40.933 --> 0:19:43.612 were a mother after all this time? 0:19:44.053 --> 0:19:47.333 Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him, 0:19:47.333 --> 0:19:51.453 it suddenly felt real. So, yeah, such a beautiful emotional time. 0:19:51.653 --> 0:19:55.052 And again all living together was actually really special as well. 0:19:55.173 --> 0:19:57.853 And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold 0:19:57.853 --> 0:20:00.453 hands of being parents, so they were able to show 0:20:00.533 --> 0:20:03.373 us a few things, a few tips and tricks, which 0:20:03.453 --> 0:20:05.733 was very helpful. This is how you put a napion, 0:20:06.133 --> 0:20:08.413 this is how you do a bath, all those things 0:20:08.453 --> 0:20:11.092 that you read in the books and listen to on 0:20:11.133 --> 0:20:13.332 the podcast before you're a parent, but when it actually 0:20:13.333 --> 0:20:15.773 comes to the time, you have no idea what you're doing, 0:20:15.773 --> 0:20:18.853 at least I didn't know. So that was a really 0:20:19.293 --> 0:20:23.053 lovely experience as well, doing all that together. And at 0:20:23.093 --> 0:20:27.133 three weeks we then flew back to Australia, so that 0:20:27.213 --> 0:20:30.052 also was very emotional saying goodbye to Leah and Josh. 0:20:30.413 --> 0:20:33.292 Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost 0:20:33.333 --> 0:20:38.013 become this blended family at this point after spending three 0:20:38.053 --> 0:20:41.733 weeks together. And Leah is obviously still recovering from birth. 0:20:42.373 --> 0:20:44.373 I'm not going to ask you to speak for her, 0:20:44.533 --> 0:20:47.812 but I can imagine that sort of giving over a 0:20:47.933 --> 0:20:52.173 baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be 0:20:52.253 --> 0:20:56.013 quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd 0:20:56.013 --> 0:20:58.933 done this before. Was that something that she was kind 0:20:58.933 --> 0:21:01.893 of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it. 0:21:02.373 --> 0:21:05.133 Yeah, I think it was something she was comfortable with. 0:21:05.253 --> 0:21:09.013 She had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that 0:21:09.093 --> 0:21:11.893 she'd had the Suragad baby for that when it came 0:21:11.973 --> 0:21:14.413 time to say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying 0:21:14.453 --> 0:21:18.173 goodbye to the parents rather than the baby, because you know, 0:21:18.293 --> 0:21:20.413 that's who she knew, that's who she spent a lot 0:21:20.453 --> 0:21:22.572 of time time with, and so I think that was 0:21:22.653 --> 0:21:26.013 true with us as well. And the night before we 0:21:26.013 --> 0:21:30.133 did fly out, though, Leah had Spencer for the night, 0:21:30.373 --> 0:21:34.053 so he slept in her bed for the night, and 0:21:34.293 --> 0:21:36.893 it was one way to let us have a really 0:21:36.893 --> 0:21:40.093 good night's sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international 0:21:40.093 --> 0:21:43.612 flight with the newborns. That was very thoughtful. But of 0:21:43.613 --> 0:21:47.053 course another part of it was her spending that quality 0:21:47.093 --> 0:21:49.453 time with Spencer, and I think it was also her 0:21:49.493 --> 0:21:52.933 way of saying goodbye, which was important. But I will 0:21:52.933 --> 0:21:55.933 add that we have obviously kept in contact. We have 0:21:56.053 --> 0:21:59.813 such a close relationship, and we moved to the US 0:21:59.973 --> 0:22:02.653 my husband's work a couple of years ago, and we 0:22:02.693 --> 0:22:05.013 moved back last year, and when we were living in 0:22:05.013 --> 0:22:07.733 the US, we did actually catch up with Lea and 0:22:07.813 --> 0:22:09.893 Josh a few times, so we spent some time at 0:22:09.933 --> 0:22:12.532 their house. Then Leah came and spent a few weeks 0:22:12.533 --> 0:22:15.253 with us. We were in North Carolina at the time, 0:22:15.533 --> 0:22:18.973 and so we actually saw each other three times in 0:22:19.053 --> 0:22:21.373 that time face to face, and then she kind of 0:22:21.373 --> 0:22:24.973 got to meet Spencer again because you know, she'd say 0:22:25.013 --> 0:22:27.812 goodbye to a three week newborn and then when we 0:22:27.893 --> 0:22:31.292 came back to the US, he was three and a half. 0:22:31.453 --> 0:22:35.013 So that was a really special experience for her. And 0:22:35.053 --> 0:22:38.933 it's interesting because, I mean we'd obviously kept in contact 0:22:38.973 --> 0:22:42.813 and done video scouts and everything, but you know, within 0:22:42.893 --> 0:22:45.893 five minutes light Lia and Spencer, they just were like 0:22:45.933 --> 0:22:49.093 the best of friends and so comfortable with each other, 0:22:49.173 --> 0:22:51.173 and it was like that known each other for years 0:22:51.173 --> 0:22:53.373 as well, So it was actually really special. 0:22:53.813 --> 0:22:56.533 I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into 0:22:56.773 --> 0:23:00.893 Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre 0:23:00.973 --> 0:23:02.253 clampsia throughout the. 0:23:02.213 --> 0:23:04.773 Pregnancy, Yes, post proclampsia. 0:23:04.293 --> 0:23:08.213 Postpartum pre clamsier. Yes, So while you're living with her 0:23:08.413 --> 0:23:11.693 and she's going through this, like, how do you respond 0:23:11.693 --> 0:23:12.013 to that? 0:23:12.493 --> 0:23:18.292 So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth, 0:23:18.653 --> 0:23:21.973 she did hemorrhage and to lose about a leader of blood. 0:23:22.853 --> 0:23:26.532 They were prepared for that because that had happened previously. 0:23:26.693 --> 0:23:30.733 So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to 0:23:30.733 --> 0:23:35.052 treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because 0:23:35.813 --> 0:23:40.213