Speaker 1: He's an Australian born man, non Indigenous, he's aged between
Speaker 1: thirty and thirty four, and he's armed with a knife.
Speaker 1: What I've just described to you is your average type
Speaker 1: of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales. We
Speaker 1: know all of this because of a new interactive tool
Speaker 1: made by the state's Domestic Violence Death Review Team. It's
Speaker 1: based on three decades worth of data. I mean, the
Speaker 1: numbers are no surprise to most of us. We're losing
Speaker 1: a woman a week to a former or current partner
Speaker 1: in Australia. As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Cattley admits,
Speaker 1: it's depressing, but she's trying. For three years, she's been
Speaker 1: overseeing major changes to our laws and systems. In twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, New South Wales criminalized coercive control. They made
Speaker 1: bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.
Speaker 1: They introduced a new app called empower You so victims
Speaker 1: can discreetly document abuse and seek support. They've done blitz
Speaker 1: operations mass arresting offenders, but is it working. That's the
Speaker 1: big question. So for the women living this reality in
Speaker 1: fear with abuse, with violent men, what's next? What do
Speaker 1: we actually do next? I'm Jimmy Bath and you're listening
Speaker 1: to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most
Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the
Speaker 1: most about them. We don't often have politicians on this podcast,
Speaker 1: but time and time again we hear about the barriers, trauma,
Speaker 1: backlogs and roadblocks that are getting in the way of
Speaker 1: victims and their families as they try and seek help,
Speaker 1: justice or support from our police services. Yasmin Catley is
Speaker 1: only in charge of Police Encounter Terrorism in New South Wales,
Speaker 1: but we were keen to hear from her, from someone
Speaker 1: in a position of power to understand more about how
Speaker 1: decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress
Speaker 1: in spaces that are crying out for reform is so
Speaker 1: damn slow. Catley comes from a working class family and
Speaker 1: grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of
Speaker 1: New South Wales. Her husband is also in politics and
Speaker 1: they have three daughters together. She has been a member
Speaker 1: of the Australian Labour Party since she was nineteen. She
Speaker 1: started off as an electric officer in the Federal Party
Speaker 1: and worked in several senior Minister's Officers for more than
Speaker 1: a decade. For entering State parliament, she was elected Member
Speaker 1: for Swansea in twenty fifteen, and from there she's worn
Speaker 1: a number of hats. Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation,
Speaker 1: Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural
Speaker 1: Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy
Speaker 1: Leader of the Op position, Shadow Minister for Customer Service,
Speaker 1: Shadow Minister for Digital both Shadow Minister and Minister for
Speaker 1: the Hunter and as of twenty twenty three, Minister for
Speaker 1: Police and counter Terrorism, which of course is why we've
Speaker 1: invited her on the podcast. Here's our conversation with Yasmin Cautley. Jasmin,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Can
Speaker 1: you give us a bit of a background on your
Speaker 1: career because I'm fascinated how someone went from being a
Speaker 1: librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and counter Terrorism.
Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of gaps in there, but
Speaker 1: tell me how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.
Speaker 2: Yet, while I still pinch myself to quite frankly, look,
Speaker 2: I did join the Labor Party when I was nineteen.
Speaker 2: I come from a working class family. My dad was
Speaker 2: a seafarer, so politics was something that was talked about
Speaker 2: a lot in our house and he was a member
Speaker 2: of the party, so I joined as well.
Speaker 3: I remember I'm a member.
Speaker 2: Of the party. I should tell you. I was a
Speaker 2: member of the Swansea branch. They were about seventy six
Speaker 2: men and me.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 3: Yes, he had con imagined in nineteen year.
Speaker 1: Old one nineteen year old woman.
Speaker 2: And guess what. I became the secretary of the branch
Speaker 2: real quick. And that's because what do you do? You
Speaker 2: give the woman all the work? Typical right, make my
Speaker 2: blood boil? Oh well, you'd be boiling every day if
Speaker 2: I could tell you half my stories, Demma, you know,
Speaker 2: And then I did. I worked in public libraries for
Speaker 2: most of my career and then at the I did
Speaker 2: almost ten years at the Refugee Review Tribunal. So I
Speaker 2: moved into Commonwealth Public Service libraries and I loved it.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed my job. And it was after my
Speaker 2: third child. I was living in dullit Chill with my
Speaker 2: husband and the three girls, and Anthony Albanie was my
Speaker 2: local member and he said, do you want to come
Speaker 2: and work in my electorate office?
Speaker 3: And I did. But then we moved.
Speaker 2: Back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combay
Speaker 2: in two thousand and fourteen the he was looking for
Speaker 2: a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said
Speaker 2: you should do that, and he encouraged me to do that.
Speaker 2: And can I say It's the greatest honor of my
Speaker 2: life representing my community, the people that I live, work
Speaker 2: and play with.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like, you know, being the member for
Speaker 1: Swansea is something you're really passionate about. Oh yeah, what
Speaker 1: about the police and counter terrorism portfolios? What did you
Speaker 1: know about them prior to getting into that world and
Speaker 1: was that something that you were excited about when you
Speaker 1: got tap to do it?
Speaker 2: Well, Jim, I'd spent most of my life trying to
Speaker 2: avoid police, like most people quite frankly, so as.
Speaker 3: A consequence of that, I didn't know a lot about it.
Speaker 2: But you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you
Speaker 2: you learned. That's your job to learn the portfolio. You
Speaker 2: don't need to be an expert from day one, and
Speaker 2: no one can say I'm not a hard worker. So
Speaker 2: I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could
Speaker 2: really learn the ins and outs of it. I've traveled
Speaker 2: this state, meeting police right across the state, seeing what
Speaker 2: they do, the type of work they do. I don't
Speaker 2: think that there's a command that I haven't been at
Speaker 2: at least once many several times. I'm really invested in it,
Speaker 2: and I'm invested in it because I don't think I
Speaker 2: understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of
Speaker 2: the community like I do today, and that is day
Speaker 2: to day, day in, day out, Police is intersection twenty
Speaker 2: four hours a day into community in New South Wales
Speaker 2: is probably the only organization that has that closeness and
Speaker 2: therefore that's how serious it is and how important it is.
Speaker 2: So I take that very very seriously in my role
Speaker 2: as their minister.
Speaker 1: For listeners exactly what is your job because it's a
Speaker 1: very different role to the police commissioner, but you do
Speaker 1: work very closely with them. So what are you in
Speaker 1: charge of? What are you doing on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis.
Speaker 2: Look, my job as Police Minister is to ensure that
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Police is resourced to do their job,
Speaker 2: which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
Speaker 2: Obviously it's a policy direction as well, like recruitment, the
Speaker 2: recruitment policy, for instance, getting more boots on the ground,
Speaker 2: making sure police are staying within the organization, so reducing
Speaker 2: the attrition rate. Obviously, their pay and conditions of work
Speaker 2: are very important to me. If we don't look after police,
Speaker 2: they will walk out the door. So they rely on
Speaker 2: their minister to make sure that their well being is
Speaker 2: center and mind of everything, every decision that I make,
Speaker 2: and of courseslative legislation because they enforce the law. So
Speaker 2: working hand in glove with the Commissioner to make sure
Speaker 2: that the laws that we are implementing that the police
Speaker 2: can then operationalize them.
Speaker 3: On the ground.
Speaker 1: So the Commissioner would come to you with kind of
Speaker 1: the issues and the problems and then you'll help take
Speaker 1: that into legislation and law.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: Look, the commission and I speak several times a week,
Speaker 2: sometimes several times a day. Yeah, yeah, we're very close,
Speaker 2: and you have to be to do the job right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's my view. And you know, whoever is in charge
Speaker 2: of whatever we're dealing with at the time, I will
Speaker 2: speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Speaker 2: Ultimately that's the Commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility
Speaker 2: to other members of his workforce.
Speaker 1: You when you took on these portfolios, I saw you
Speaker 1: criticize the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? What did you mean
Speaker 1: by that?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's about their attitude towards police officers themselves and
Speaker 2: their pay and working conditions. Capping police officers wages sent
Speaker 2: their wages backwards, and now looking back on it, we
Speaker 2: were the worst paid police officers in the country.
Speaker 1: Really yep.
Speaker 3: So police were leaving in droves.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I guess that means we're losing quality
Speaker 1: police officers.
Speaker 2: Well trained, that's right, like police officers at ten eleven,
Speaker 2: twelve years. Like in fact, I love data and I
Speaker 2: love evidence. So when we were looking at the wages
Speaker 2: agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three twenty four, I got them to provide
Speaker 2: to me all the age groups that were leaving and
Speaker 2: when they were leaving, So it was sort of between
Speaker 2: that nine and eleven years that's when police were leaving.
Speaker 2: Of course, they're the most experienced, they're the ones you
Speaker 2: exactly want to keep. The opposite, So we had to
Speaker 2: look at how are we going to keep those So
Speaker 2: we devised their pay and conditions the workplace agreement to
Speaker 2: specifically target those who were leaving first or the most,
Speaker 2: and we were really able to customize a great deal
Speaker 2: which was I think it was unanimously voted in, so
Speaker 2: they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
Speaker 3: But the other thing was not only were they not.
Speaker 2: Paid properly, they didn't feel supported as a result of that,
Speaker 2: and there was no wrapping well being around them. A
Speaker 2: well beeing unit within the New South Wales Police and
Speaker 2: that's to specifically case manage individual police officers so we
Speaker 2: can keep our finger on the pulse and say, hey,
Speaker 2: you really should take some leave. You know, this is
Speaker 2: the sort of interaction that we want and this is
Speaker 2: the help that we want to be providing our New
Speaker 2: South Wales Police. But it was outsourced to some external
Speaker 2: works compensation scheme and police lost sight they had internally,
Speaker 2: they had no idea of what was happening to each
Speaker 2: individual officer. That's not how you look after people, That's
Speaker 2: not how you look after a workforce. I mean, I
Speaker 2: have fought hard all of my life for working people,
Speaker 2: for their paying conditions, and police and are different for me,
Speaker 2: and that's the one thing they know I've got their
Speaker 2: back on.
Speaker 1: Would you say that that was your biggest challenge when
Speaker 1: you came in And how do you think you're going.
Speaker 1: Is the police force happier?
Speaker 2: Look, well, they certainly happier. They've got more pay one
Speaker 2: hundred percent and so they should be. So they should be. Then,
Speaker 2: as I say, they're now the best paid police in
Speaker 2: the country.
Speaker 3: They know that I've got their back and I do.
Speaker 2: I genuinely have their back because if we don't look
Speaker 2: after our New South Wales police officers that do a.
Speaker 3: Job like no other.
Speaker 2: Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else
Speaker 2: is running away from it. And it's a big job,
Speaker 2: you know, like you see the worst of people on
Speaker 2: the worst day of their life. But equally it can
Speaker 2: be extraordinarily rewarding because you've helped someone out, you've managed
Speaker 2: to help someone in crisis or indeed save someone's life.
Speaker 2: So I mean it can be two very different jobs
Speaker 2: on two very different days. But I think ultimately when
Speaker 2: I talk to police they say to me, it's the
Speaker 2: best job ever, and thank you so much for looking
Speaker 2: after us and for supporting us and I'd tell you,
Speaker 2: what if they do something wrong, If there's an individual
Speaker 2: officer that does something wrong, and of course that's going
Speaker 2: to happen, then we should call that out. And I
Speaker 2: think even the police officers in there, you know, they
Speaker 2: also believe in that. But ninety nine percent of the time,
Speaker 2: let me tell you, they're good people, doing credibly hard job,
Speaker 2: doing it very very well, and most people respect that.
Speaker 1: Was there anything that surprised you when you took on
Speaker 1: these portfolios got up to speed with them. What surprised
Speaker 1: you about what you were dealing with?
Speaker 2: Yes, lots of surprises, good surprises and not so good surprises.
Speaker 2: I think I didn't realize at all that police were
Speaker 2: so dependent upon across community twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 2: and people think that they are, you know, their mental
Speaker 2: health practitioner, a youth counselor a DV you know counselor.
Speaker 2: Because police were around twenty four hours a day, I
Speaker 2: felt like every incident that happened, it was why aren't
Speaker 2: the police doing more? Like That's how I was being questioned,
Speaker 2: why aren't the police fixing that? Why aren't the police
Speaker 2: doing this? And I just was this friend set of
Speaker 2: eyes that came in and sat back and said, hold up,
Speaker 2: these people are law enforcement officers, then they can't be
Speaker 2: everything to everyone. That's not how this works. Other departments
Speaker 2: need to also take some responsibility here, so we need
Speaker 2: to work collaboratively together to be able to come up
Speaker 2: with solutions for the community broadly. But the police cannot
Speaker 2: harbor all of this on their shoulders alone. That's not
Speaker 2: how this works. And already we're seeing some changes in
Speaker 2: the mental health incident, so we've got we're to sign
Speaker 2: a memorandum of understanding with Health soon so that we
Speaker 2: can have the right person, right care. So that's fantastic.
Speaker 2: In terms of domestic violence, of course, we've got the
Speaker 2: wdvcas workers now working in police stations in some areas,
Speaker 2: so people like right next door to a police officer,
Speaker 2: they're sitting working as a team. So that's fantastic, working
Speaker 2: very closely with the sector. And there's other examples as well.
Speaker 2: So it's just a fresh set of eyes coming in
Speaker 2: going who hold on a minute, this doesn't right, And
Speaker 2: that's just being practical and being a community member myself.
Speaker 2: And we're seeing some and you know, police like the
Speaker 2: fact that there's someone there that you know is supporting
Speaker 2: them and they don't have to be everything to everyone.
Speaker 2: So that was a surprise to me. But good surprise,
Speaker 2: like real good surprise is the variance within the organization.
Speaker 2: Like it's a big organization and you can have seventeen
Speaker 2: different careers within the one organization.
Speaker 3: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: Like I strongly recommend people check it out if they're
Speaker 2: looking for a career change. It's you can be anything
Speaker 2: you want in there. You know, you just got to
Speaker 2: go through the years of service and you can be
Speaker 2: anything you want in the New South Wales Police and
Speaker 2: there's never been a better time to sign up.
Speaker 1: Always recruiting them in a start.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. I'm dedicated.
Speaker 1: Jemma, you've been in this role for three years now.
Speaker 1: How do you think you're tracking what's your report card
Speaker 1: on yourself?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: That's a bit tricky. Are we rely on others to
Speaker 3: do that for me?
Speaker 2: Look, I feel there's always more work to do, hundred percent,
Speaker 2: and I will keep looking for new technologies and new
Speaker 2: ways of doing things because that's the sort of police
Speaker 2: force we want. We want the police force of the future,
Speaker 2: and if we just keep doing what we're doing, then
Speaker 2: we won't be that workforce of the future, and I
Speaker 2: think people of today, like young recruits of today, are
Speaker 2: very different to those who were signed up forty years ago.
Speaker 2: We have to remember that. So it's important that we
Speaker 2: remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to
Speaker 2: sign up to the new South Wales Police because they
Speaker 2: know they can have a long rewarding career there. How
Speaker 2: am I reporting? Okay, I'm not trying to avoid the questions.
Speaker 1: We're usually our own, our own best critic, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that is true. Look, I think that I'm
Speaker 2: doing Okay, I'm still there. I mean you might recall
Speaker 2: that many said that, you know, within my first year
Speaker 2: I was not going to last very long. Well I've
Speaker 2: outlasted most of those people who said that, so that's
Speaker 2: a positive.
Speaker 3: So there you go.
Speaker 1: After the break. Are we actually making progress when it
Speaker 1: comes to stopping men's violence against women? And why is
Speaker 1: change in this space taking so long? I want to
Speaker 1: start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge
Speaker 1: topic that we cover here, particularly men's violence against women.
Speaker 1: We talk about it way too often, way too many cases,
Speaker 1: horrific cases. We know that improving statistics in this space
Speaker 1: is an uphill battle. And like you mentioned before, it's
Speaker 1: a systemic issue. It's not just police, it's not just courts.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a multifaceted area. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about the progress that we've seen in that space since
Speaker 1: you've taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the
Speaker 1: right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with
Speaker 1: DV No?
Speaker 3: No is the answer to that, but depressing.
Speaker 2: I say that with a very heavy heart, and I
Speaker 2: say it with a heavy heart because there has never
Speaker 2: been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence
Speaker 2: and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where
Speaker 2: police intersect then there is today, and that in itself
Speaker 2: says what in the bloody.
Speaker 3: Hell is going on? Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look In saying that, though, let me just tell you
Speaker 2: a bit about what police are doing, which is certainly,
Speaker 2: as I say, from more of that crisis end, but
Speaker 2: they do a bit of prevention as well. So i'll
Speaker 2: take you through that if that's okay. So they've got
Speaker 2: a couple of operations which are specific to domestic violence,
Speaker 2: Operation Emrock now that has occurred just a few weeks
Speaker 2: ago and some startling results, and I will read them
Speaker 2: if you don't mind. Operation em Rock, I should just
Speaker 2: explain to you is a targeted operation targeting high risk
Speaker 2: domestic violence offenders. So New South Wales police have the
Speaker 2: Domestic Violence Command. It is the own, first and only
Speaker 2: in the country and it is specifically designed.
Speaker 3: To look at those.
Speaker 2: Repeat offenders, those recidivus offenders for domestic violence and to
Speaker 2: have them targeted in operations like this. They also assist
Speaker 2: every command right around the state, so if there's a
Speaker 2: domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the
Speaker 2: Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the
Speaker 2: data and then use all of that data as intelligence
Speaker 2: when doing these operations. So just a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 2: they run for four days, nine hundred and ninety three arrests,
Speaker 2: two thousand and sixty three chargers, fourteen three hundred and
Speaker 2: eighteen advo compliance checks, three hundred and ninety one breuches identified,
Speaker 2: ninety four firearms and forty eight other weapons were seized.
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that staggering In four days almost a
Speaker 2: thousand arrests.
Speaker 1: It's a bit depressing, really, I know it's good news,
Speaker 1: but it's it's a bit depressing.
Speaker 3: I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1: In one state, might I add, might our remind listeners
Speaker 1: we're talking about just New South Wales.
Speaker 2: Here exactly, and I assume other states are doing you know,
Speaker 2: something similar or if not, you know something the same.
Speaker 2: But on what I might add is it's not just
Speaker 2: unique to New South Wales. It is across this country
Speaker 2: and that that too is very concerning. I honestly believe
Speaker 2: that you know. In addition to that, there's another operation
Speaker 2: called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of commands themselves,
Speaker 2: so much more target in local areas. Again, we see
Speaker 2: numbers that just I find staggering. We also have, because
Speaker 2: of other legislative changes that we've made around bail and
Speaker 2: the like, we've got more people, more males on remand
Speaker 2: than we have ever had. They're bursting at the seat,
Speaker 2: and a third of those are high risk domestic violence
Speaker 2: perpetrators that are on remand on remand so they are
Speaker 2: locked up. But we are still seeing this awful amount
Speaker 2: of breaches right around the state when Operation in Rocks runs. Now,
Speaker 2: is it, I think, which is a good thing. Police
Speaker 2: respond to a domestic violence incident every three minutes. That
Speaker 2: is alarming. But it's also on the flip side, I think,
Speaker 2: and both the sector and police tell me women are
Speaker 2: more likely to report they feel that they are being heard,
Speaker 2: that police are responding and that is a good thing.
Speaker 1: So do you think that could be why we're seeing
Speaker 1: statistics rise a bit because women are reporting?
Speaker 2: I think anecdote we can say that until we can
Speaker 2: get some data, like we've got to click data on
Speaker 2: this stuff, right. So if we look at Boxar Statistics,
Speaker 2: and they are the independent that they record all of
Speaker 2: the Bureau of Crime statistics, they report that for New
Speaker 2: South Wales in most crime categories, in fact, in all
Speaker 2: crime categories except for three, crime is going down in
Speaker 2: New South Wales. New South Wales is the safest state
Speaker 2: in this country except for domestic violence. It's not going
Speaker 2: up exponentially like it was three years ago when I
Speaker 2: first came in as minister, but it's still sexual assault
Speaker 2: and retail crime is the other one that's going out
Speaker 2: right crime which we police again have put in you know,
Speaker 2: working with need to talk about retail crime maybe for
Speaker 2: another day, but.
Speaker 1: They're there about those first two though.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, me too.
Speaker 1: Domestic violence and sexual assault going up like that's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, and that's trend across the country as well.
Speaker 1: The thing like when you were telling me about those
Speaker 1: operation results, I was like, great, But then the next
Speaker 1: thing that comes into my brain is but then these
Speaker 1: people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs,
Speaker 1: and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them
Speaker 1: getting picked up for. But women are killed in that
Speaker 1: period when they go back home or when they're released
Speaker 1: back into the communing. That's when women are dying. So
Speaker 1: what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that
Speaker 1: you've kind of helped bail laws. Are we strengthening stuff there?
Speaker 1: Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches.
Speaker 1: How do we improve that period of a woman's life.
Speaker 2: Well, it's identifying all of those markers which you've just
Speaker 2: quite rightly pointed out, so.
Speaker 3: It can.
Speaker 2: There are certain markers that police will use to profile
Speaker 2: a serious domestic violence perpetrator. Choking, if you've split up,
Speaker 2: that's a serious concern a lot if the relationship has ceased.
Speaker 2: And there are others as well that police use to
Speaker 2: as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator, and
Speaker 2: they need to make sure obviously they'll have an advo
Speaker 2: out against them. We need to try to make sure
Speaker 2: that they are adhering to those which police do do
Speaker 2: checks on those. But it's hard to regulate really bad
Speaker 2: human behavior, is the truth of it. But I don't
Speaker 2: think we should give up. That doesn't mean we're giving up.
Speaker 2: Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence
Speaker 2: space that also come into play here, and DCJ have
Speaker 2: a number of different types of preventative and crisis and
Speaker 2: safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who
Speaker 2: are in these very, very vulnerable situations. But I would
Speaker 2: say this, and this is really important to all those
Speaker 2: women out there listening. If you know something, then say something.
Speaker 2: I want to use an example of a lovely young
Speaker 2: woman who I think was in late twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: so I was only new to the job. She lived
Speaker 2: in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of
Speaker 2: her partner. They had split up, but he'd come back
Speaker 2: into the house. She had a young son and she
Speaker 2: was allegedly murdered in his hands in her flat. Now
Speaker 2: it turned out that there were at least three or
Speaker 2: four of her friends that knew that she had been
Speaker 2: choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had
Speaker 2: been abused, And I just say to anyone listening. If
Speaker 2: you know that that is happening, then please say something.
Speaker 2: And I know that can be uncomfortable. I was only
Speaker 2: speaking to someone I know, rec and she told me
Speaker 2: personally about a friend of hers who she believed was
Speaker 2: being abused behind closed doors. And I said, you have
Speaker 2: to say something, and she said, oh, I don't know
Speaker 2: how to bring this up with my friend.
Speaker 1: Do you mean say something to the friend or say
Speaker 1: something to police.
Speaker 2: Or I mean say something to both? Quite frankly, really,
Speaker 2: I think I do it.
Speaker 1: Can police help? Though? Like if I was to go
Speaker 1: to police and say my friend is being choked and abused,
Speaker 1: wouldn't they say, okay, we'll get your friend to come
Speaker 1: and report it? Like how is that? How? How is
Speaker 1: me reporting that going to help my friend?
Speaker 2: I think this has taken a lot more seriously than
Speaker 2: what it was years ago. And I think if you
Speaker 2: are reporting something like that, then police will certainly check
Speaker 2: it out. And it may not, let's be honest, there
Speaker 2: are many priorities that they will be dealing with and
Speaker 2: it will be in a priority yep. But I think
Speaker 2: and they will address it when they can get to it.
Speaker 2: But I think if you don't something, and you know
Speaker 2: something it could be, you know, that conversation that saves
Speaker 2: that person's life. And I know they're uncomfortable conversation staff,
Speaker 2: and I know that it's difficult, and I know that
Speaker 2: instinctively we probably think, oh, we shouldn't say anything, but
Speaker 2: this can no longer be a silent crime that only
Speaker 2: happens behind closed doors.
Speaker 3: And it still is. That is the reality. It still is.
Speaker 2: And even though you know, I've heard many people say, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not that crime anymore, it's Karen Webb
Speaker 2: told me it's a silent crime, and it is a
Speaker 2: silent crime and has to stop being a silent crime
Speaker 2: because I can tell you right now if thirty six
Speaker 2: footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the
Speaker 2: field over a year, there would be a major inquiry
Speaker 2: into it.
Speaker 1: Well that's the kind of what we keep coming back to.
Speaker 1: It's like, this is an epidemic, like why are we
Speaker 1: not doing more? But you're saying we're kind of we're
Speaker 1: trying to do more.
Speaker 3: Well, police are police?
Speaker 2: Really They've got an empower you app now, so you
Speaker 2: can actually diorize everything that is occurring in your life,
Speaker 2: and on that app as well. You can also have
Speaker 2: a button to send a message to a friend, I
Speaker 2: need your help. It's in forty different languages. Like we
Speaker 2: are trying everything we can to assist. You can use
Speaker 2: the information that you put on that app as evidence.
Speaker 2: We've made sure that it's at that level that was
Speaker 2: devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it
Speaker 2: to make sure that it was acceptable and able to
Speaker 2: be used. There is now the capacity to be able
Speaker 2: to if you dial triple zero, you can have a
Speaker 2: live link with police and a video link with police,
Speaker 2: so you can talk to them directly. So we're working
Speaker 2: on how we could adapt that into using that in
Speaker 2: much more just in a safety environment as well. Again,
Speaker 2: go back to technology and how important technology is. So
Speaker 2: police are really doing a lot and I'm really proud
Speaker 2: that on their minister and that that is the case.
Speaker 2: But statistics are statistics, and quite rightly, as we started
Speaker 2: this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 1: Do you all these things that you've talked about. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to have a bit of hope here. Have we
Speaker 1: not had enough time to embed those to see the changes?
Speaker 1: Like do you think that we could push those statistics down.
Speaker 1: I know that you're only in charge of police. It's
Speaker 1: such a it's one jigsaw piece. But how do we
Speaker 1: push these statistics down? Like really?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we're certainly arresting and putting them behind bars.
Speaker 2: That's the statistics that I can tell you as statistic
Speaker 2: of success in a sense, like these high risk perpetrators
Speaker 2: are behind bars.
Speaker 3: Again, we all have a role to play here, we
Speaker 3: really do.
Speaker 2: I think that people need to need to think about
Speaker 2: conversations that they have with their friends and.
Speaker 3: Supports.
Speaker 2: Great friendship's wonderful, but I think giving them a nudge
Speaker 2: to let someone know before it's too late is something
Speaker 2: that the people should think about.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about legislation, because in twenty twenty four, New
Speaker 1: Southwales criminalized course of control as a standalone offense. Have
Speaker 1: we seen improvements from that.
Speaker 3: In the space yeah?
Speaker 2: Co Well, we've had a number of arrests, which is
Speaker 2: a positive thing, which means the law is working. Coursive
Speaker 2: control is the long tail. It can take quite a
Speaker 2: long time to for police to be able to get
Speaker 2: the body of evidence together to then make the charge.
Speaker 2: But every police officer has been trained in it, so
Speaker 2: that's a good thing. But I mean, it's an odious
Speaker 2: way of controlling people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it shows like it's hard to criminalize, Like
Speaker 1: we've got this law, great, but how do we actually
Speaker 1: put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that
Speaker 1: I read that was the year to twenty twenty four July,
Speaker 1: they had two hundred and ninety seven reports of course
Speaker 1: of control in that year, nine charges and one conviction.
Speaker 1: So it's like the law's great, but we're not seeing
Speaker 1: the results at the end.
Speaker 2: I think it will take a little bit of time
Speaker 2: for coercive control to be as intended at its best,
Speaker 2: for like the laws itself, to be used to their
Speaker 2: full potential. And it's only because not because police aren't trying.
Speaker 2: Its awareness people knowing that they have that as a
Speaker 2: law and that they can report that type of coercive
Speaker 2: behavior as a criminal behavior. So it's certainly educating people.
Speaker 2: It's also, as I say, it takes a long time
Speaker 2: to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions
Speaker 2: to then take place.
Speaker 3: So I think we will review it.
Speaker 2: There's a review mechanism in the legislation, and we will
Speaker 2: review it, and we will continue to review it. But
Speaker 2: that's not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma.
Speaker 2: Now it's something that I feel very very strongly about
Speaker 2: because you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive
Speaker 2: behavior is also a precursor to homicide. So again, the
Speaker 2: more people and particularly women know about coercive control and
Speaker 2: the fact that it is a criminal behavior and is
Speaker 2: treated as such in New South Wales, then I think
Speaker 2: the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to
Speaker 2: that piece of legislation.
Speaker 1: Am I right in saying that you're also trying to
Speaker 1: make covert stalking a criminal offense?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, we have, that's right, Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: So what we're seeing is in vehicles, men being able
Speaker 2: to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to
Speaker 2: track women as well obviously on their phones or again
Speaker 2: in their vehicles. Yes, so stalking is that it will
Speaker 2: absolutely be a COVID defense as well as it should be.
Speaker 1: So that's something that we're still waiting to kind of
Speaker 1: go through everything it needs to go through, or it
Speaker 1: is an offense.
Speaker 2: It's in our legislation that just went through the house
Speaker 2: in New South Wales, so soon soon.
Speaker 3: Be assented too soon.
Speaker 2: It's hard to believe as a woman that you know
Speaker 2: you would be surveilled like this by the person that
Speaker 2: you most trust.
Speaker 1: But the fact we need legislation for it shows it's
Speaker 1: happening so much.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and with you know, consequences that
Speaker 2: can be murder.
Speaker 1: Stock sexual assault, let's talk about that. We know that
Speaker 1: it's an area that's notoriously hard to get convictions in.
Speaker 1: We also know that New South Wales police have a
Speaker 1: massive backlog of sexual assault investigations. Were you aware of
Speaker 1: how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio?
Speaker 3: Look, no, I wasn't. But it's shocking.
Speaker 2: I just I find you know, societies, the whole of
Speaker 2: society with sexual assault. I just find it mind blowing.
Speaker 2: I can't believe it, and I can't believe those statistics
Speaker 2: are still on the rise. What is going on out
Speaker 2: there with our young men? I don't understand, Well, not
Speaker 2: just young men, it's just men generally. And I think
Speaker 2: that we need to have a podcast chat about that
Speaker 2: at some point to quite frankly, being a girl, mum.
Speaker 1: Yes I feel you, not all men, but it's enough man.
Speaker 2: No, I no, that's exactly right. And you know, I
Speaker 2: don't want to criticize all blokes. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke that
Speaker 2: blokes that are women champions too, which are fantastic, But
Speaker 2: sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just
Speaker 2: very very concerning. The backlogs with police are you know,
Speaker 2: it's not okay. We will continue to work though to
Speaker 2: get through those. The people who are working on those
Speaker 2: cases take them very very seriously, thank goodness, and that's important.
Speaker 2: I think I don't think it's always been the case
Speaker 2: that women have felt that they have been believed. I
Speaker 2: think that's a fact, So I don't think I'm saying
Speaker 2: anything that's not already out there, and that in itself
Speaker 2: is shocking. So I think it's very important that they
Speaker 2: at least feel believed, and I'm hopeful again that that
Speaker 2: is why we are seeing an increase, because people are
Speaker 2: coming forward. Police have in recent times developed Sorrow, which
Speaker 2: is a sexual assault reporting tool, so you can if
Speaker 2: you've been the victim of a sexual assault, you can
Speaker 2: now report that crime on Sorrow and you can remain
Speaker 2: anonymous if you choose. But then if some to report
Speaker 2: the incident, but then some time down the track you
Speaker 2: might want to actually prosecute and take that to police
Speaker 2: so you.
Speaker 1: Can make that choice later, Yeah, which I think is appropriate. Well,
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't make the decision until, you know,
Speaker 1: years sometimes down the.
Speaker 2: Track spot of that's right, So that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: I think that's appropriate. That you've been able to do that,
Speaker 2: So that's a good thing now, and that those statistics
Speaker 2: are added now to the Bierau of statistics, the ones
Speaker 2: we talked of earlier, So I think that that is
Speaker 2: a positive as well. But you know, again, at last
Speaker 2: are at the crisis end, and it's the societal problems
Speaker 2: that we've got to try to look at. Why is
Speaker 2: this happening?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 2: What do people feel? What do men feel it's okay
Speaker 2: to assault a woman at any time anywhere?
Speaker 1: It's so those wait times. Are you suggesting that they're
Speaker 1: so long because there's so many that they have to
Speaker 1: get to, Well, it's it's a men issue of so
Speaker 1: many instances, rather than a police not keeping up with
Speaker 1: the number of reports.
Speaker 3: I think that it's probably a bit of both.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, we have to we'd two and a half
Speaker 2: thousand cops short, and we need to get more boots
Speaker 2: on the ground and I'm super focused on that and
Speaker 2: that's why the recruiting is. It's going well at the moment,
Speaker 2: which is fantastic, but we need more boots on the ground,
Speaker 2: will mean more cases will be solved, and that's just
Speaker 2: cheer maths.
Speaker 1: Right up next, I ask the new South Wales Minister
Speaker 1: for Police and Counter Terrorism about the Bondai terror attack
Speaker 1: and what her movements were on that day. Let's move
Speaker 1: on to the December twenty twenty five terror attack on
Speaker 1: Bondi Beach. Firstly, I want to ask you where were
Speaker 1: you when that was happening and what was your reaction
Speaker 1: as it started to kind of unfold.
Speaker 2: I was at home in the Hunter and the Commissioner
Speaker 2: called me a few minutes after he had been told
Speaker 2: and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney. Horror, deer, horror,
Speaker 2: like everyone else, disbelief, like is this really happening on
Speaker 2: our iconic beach just before Christmas? Like it was shocking,
Speaker 2: absolutely shocking, and obviously I was being updated whilst I
Speaker 2: was driving to Sydney.
Speaker 1: And where did you drive to? Where were you coming to?
Speaker 2: I went straight to police headquarters and met the Premier
Speaker 2: there and the Police commissioner there and we got a
Speaker 2: full briefing and then we did a media stand up
Speaker 2: and then we went straight to Wandai. We went to
Speaker 2: the police station down there, which ironically there Waverley Station
Speaker 2: is being renovated, so all of the police were working
Speaker 2: Bondi most of them anyway, because of the renovation going
Speaker 2: ahead Rose Bay and bond Die. So there were a
Speaker 2: lot of police there. As I say, not necessarily, just
Speaker 2: through the fact that this renovation is underway. And as
Speaker 2: we walked around there there were police officers from everywhere.
Speaker 2: Police officers just put on their uniform and got in
Speaker 2: the car and drive to a bondo. They didn't ring
Speaker 2: up and ask, They just got in the car and
Speaker 2: they drive a bondo. There was one police officer there
Speaker 2: from the Hunter.
Speaker 1: They'd gotten in the car when you did.
Speaker 2: Probably you know, that's the sort of quality of people
Speaker 2: that we have in the New South Wales Police.
Speaker 1: So in the wake of this tragedy, you managed to
Speaker 1: get a bill amended passed just before Christmas, and it
Speaker 1: was Christmas eve you got these new laws passed. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about why you were so determined to
Speaker 1: get that through so quickly? After the attack.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty easy. People wanted action. They wanted action
Speaker 2: from their government. They wanted to see that their government
Speaker 2: was strong, decisive and prepared to do what was required.
Speaker 2: Removing guns from our community was one of those things
Speaker 2: that people definitely understood was a positive thing. Making sure
Speaker 2: that we look at and changed the legislation in relation
Speaker 2: to hate crimes was critically important. And putting in place,
Speaker 2: which we've subsequently done with the police, putting in place
Speaker 2: a special rapid response squad.
Speaker 1: The Bondo Beach terror attack wasn't the first anti Semitic
Speaker 1: attack we'd seen. Jewish Australians have been living in fear since,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty twenty three, So why then, why didn't
Speaker 1: we do it early when they were yelling out for help.
Speaker 1: Why did it take the attack to change the laws.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question, and I think if I
Speaker 2: had my time over again, I would have been having
Speaker 2: very different conversations with my caucus colleagues and with cabinet colleagues.
Speaker 2: But I don't unfortunately, But you're quite right, you know,
Speaker 2: the eastern suburbs, particularly of our state or our city,
Speaker 2: we're experiencing hateful, just hateful hate. Well, we called it
Speaker 2: the Summer of hate in fact, which was the summer
Speaker 2: of twenty four and it was absolutely shocking, and I
Speaker 2: was certainly not proud of who we were. You know,
Speaker 2: I go to and have been going for I've been
Speaker 2: a member for nearly twelve years. I go to a
Speaker 2: lot of citizenship ceremonies, and at those ceremonies a line
Speaker 2: I always used, because I'm so proud of it, is
Speaker 2: we welcome you to be part of our multicultural tapestry,
Speaker 2: which so successful in this country, in this state and
Speaker 2: in Lake Macquarie.
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like that then.
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like that then, and I haven't felt
Speaker 2: like that since October twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: I think Jewish Australians would say the same. They kind
Speaker 1: of felt like they were yelling and no one was listening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we put you know, different things in place,
Speaker 2: but you're right, they're right.
Speaker 1: Protests. During your tenure, you've been accused of being not
Speaker 1: heavy handed enough, too heavy handed. You've had both sides
Speaker 1: of the coin. I'm talking about the October twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three pro Palestinian protests and then more recently the Israeli
Speaker 1: president visited and you were accused of being too heavy handed.
Speaker 1: Did the first kind of reaction inform the second reaction
Speaker 1: in terms of your approach to those two incidents?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, ah, And I think for all the right reasons.
Speaker 2: I mean, those vile scenes down on the steps of
Speaker 2: the opera house, of flames being set off, burning flags
Speaker 2: were viewed around the world, and we were seen, and
Speaker 2: probably rightly so, as a society that was celebrating the
Speaker 2: deaths and killings of innocent residents in Israel overseas. I
Speaker 2: mean shocking, awful, horrible, and yeah, you bet it informed
Speaker 2: the every decision made from then on, because it's a
Speaker 2: government's responsibility to keep your community safe, and our Jewish
Speaker 2: community felt the exact opposite to that. And whilst I
Speaker 2: the government and the police support protests, we support peaceful
Speaker 2: protests within the framework of the law.
Speaker 1: But then with these recent ones when the Israeli president came,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's been eight hundred complaints about police heavy handedness,
Speaker 1: So do we go too far in the other direction?
Speaker 2: Look, it was a very volatile situation. Obviously, we had
Speaker 2: the one group at town Hall who were protesting against
Speaker 2: the Israeli president, who was less than a kilometer away
Speaker 2: as the crow flies down at the ICC again, I
Speaker 2: just go back to community safety and keeping the community safe.
Speaker 2: But I will add one other thing to this, and
Speaker 2: that is that the protesters on that day, led by
Speaker 2: Josh Lees, the ones at town Hall, they had made
Speaker 2: an agreement with the police that it would not be
Speaker 2: a march, they would not march, that it would be stagnant,
Speaker 2: a stagnant protest. They had made that agreement, and then
Speaker 2: towards the end of their speeches, as I understand it,
Speaker 2: they were all starting to close up, and people had
Speaker 2: some people had already started walking off and going home.
Speaker 2: There was a group that insisted on defying those agreements
Speaker 2: that had been made and insisted on taking the police on.
Speaker 2: Now the police had a job to do there, and
Speaker 2: that was they'd made very clear that no one was
Speaker 2: going to march. They'd been offered different routes, a different
Speaker 2: place to be, but no, no, no, nothing was good enough.
Speaker 2: And you know, at the end of the day, the LEK,
Speaker 2: the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, as you say, there's been
Speaker 2: complaints made to them, eight hundred of them. They will
Speaker 2: review each and every one of those and if there
Speaker 2: was poor behavior, bad behavior, et cetera. Then that will
Speaker 2: be called out as it should be. That is why
Speaker 2: we have the LEK. They are there. It's the only
Speaker 2: one in the country that specifically looks at our law
Speaker 2: enforcement arm. We're the only ones that have got it
Speaker 2: in the country.
Speaker 3: Yep. So that's there.
Speaker 1: It's independent of the plant.
Speaker 2: That's right, and other jurisdictions have other types, but not
Speaker 2: that just looks at the law enforcement in our state.
Speaker 3: So that's their job. Let them do their job.
Speaker 2: I support our police keeping our community safe. On that day,
Speaker 2: tensions were high. We needed to take the heat out
Speaker 2: of it. I would do the same again.
Speaker 1: As that protest made media headlines, we did see actual
Speaker 1: footage on our TV screens of police being not just
Speaker 1: heavy handed, but quite violent with protesters. What was it
Speaker 1: like for you to watch that?
Speaker 2: There is no place for violence on our streets zero.
Speaker 2: I have zero tolerance for it and it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: who that is. But that will be investigated by the
Speaker 2: Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, and if they find any wrongdoing,
Speaker 2: then those police officers will be dealt with equally.
Speaker 3: Though. All of that footage will also be looked.
Speaker 2: At by police and if anybody has broken the law,
Speaker 2: then they too will be dealt with. There was any
Speaker 2: number of cameras and body worm cameras on that particular night,
Speaker 2: and all of that footage will be used as evidence.
Speaker 1: I need to bring up Claire Nolland because it was
Speaker 1: a big pressure point for you. For listeners who don't
Speaker 1: know that name. She was a ninety five year old
Speaker 1: aged care home resident and she was fatally tasered by
Speaker 1: a New South Wales officer in twenty twenty three. That
Speaker 1: senior constable has since been found guilty of manslaughter. There
Speaker 1: was a lot of criticism about your response, the Commissioner's response,
Speaker 1: from all kinds of sides that the criticism I'm most
Speaker 1: interested in is the accusation that you were more focused
Speaker 1: on defending New South Wales Police during the controversy than
Speaker 1: acknowledging the public concern about the use of force against
Speaker 1: a frail, older lady. How do you reflect on your
Speaker 1: handling of that incident.
Speaker 2: Well, again, the use of any force is an operational
Speaker 2: matter for the New South Wales Police and I know.
Speaker 3: Some people will feel but I'm not a police officer.
Speaker 2: I think that's very important that we know that I
Speaker 2: am not and I have to be guided by them.
Speaker 2: I think that it was shocking, that's first and foremost,
Speaker 2: and I have to say I said that of a shocking.
Speaker 3: Like but should it have been used? Shouldn't it have
Speaker 3: been used?
Speaker 2: That is a decision that has then been played out,
Speaker 2: As you say, in the courts. There was a critical
Speaker 2: investigation also undertaken at the time, and LEK were also there.
Speaker 2: They stand side by side when there's a critical investigation
Speaker 2: taking place from the police, and rightly so, they are
Speaker 2: the people who should be determining whether or not or
Speaker 2: what type of force should be used. Who should have
Speaker 2: been there, should they not have been there at all?
Speaker 2: All of those things obviously are examined. Look, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, going back to your point, before I get
Speaker 2: criticized for doing too much not doing enough, I accept
Speaker 2: that criticism on reflection. Again, I just think it was
Speaker 2: shocking that a woman lost her life whilst she was
Speaker 2: in her nineties. She was very sprightly, and I spoke
Speaker 2: to her family, and I don't know if I've told
Speaker 2: anyone that I've spoken to her family, to be honest
Speaker 2: with you, and she may have been that age, but
Speaker 2: she certainly was still very according to them, very fit,
Speaker 2: still very with it. I mean she was jumping out
Speaker 2: of a plane, not that many years before, believe it
Speaker 2: or not, parachuting. So she was clearly a woman of
Speaker 2: spirit and had lived life to the fullest.
Speaker 3: And is that the way that you'd.
Speaker 2: Want your grandma or your mom, or your aunt or
Speaker 2: family member to go and be remembered?
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. It was shocking.
Speaker 1: Why did you decide to speak to her family?
Speaker 2: I felt that on behalf of the government that that's
Speaker 2: very important. I speak to lots of victims, families, family men.
Speaker 1: Were they appreciative of hearing from you, given that it
Speaker 1: was a police officer that Yes, yes.
Speaker 2: They were very polite and very a beautiful family, a
Speaker 2: very big family because there were lots of kids, but
Speaker 2: they were a beautiful family.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, in the wake of Claire's death, an organization did
Speaker 1: reach out across Australia and offered dementia training to police officers.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that could be an important area
Speaker 1: because I know that New South Wales is yet to
Speaker 1: take up that offer, only the Northern Territory has.
Speaker 2: Oh, look, it might be something that law enforcement could
Speaker 2: look at. I do know they do have a lot
Speaker 2: of different modules that they deal with down at Goldburn
Speaker 2: during that training period. For instance, Autism Australia provides some
Speaker 2: assistance which is really useful, particularly when a child with
Speaker 2: autism goes missing. There are certain things that you should
Speaker 2: put in place specifically for people or young people with autism,
Speaker 2: which was fascinating. I found it fascinating, and a whole
Speaker 2: host of other types of modules addressing specific groups as well.
Speaker 2: So it's certainly something that we could mention and look at.
Speaker 1: This criticism of you know, I'm saying in quotations the
Speaker 1: too heavy handed and defending police of being heavy handed.
Speaker 1: That seems to come up a lot, you know, the
Speaker 1: protests clean now and can you see where it's coming from.
Speaker 1: Do you see that criticism's point of view?
Speaker 2: I can see that people are saying that and why
Speaker 2: they're saying that. But again police are our law enforcement
Speaker 2: officers and we don't want them doing the wrong thing,
Speaker 2: that's for sure, and they will be called out if
Speaker 2: they are, you know, and we've seen that over and
Speaker 2: over again. Just in the short time that I've been
Speaker 2: the minister. There have been a number of police removed
Speaker 2: from the New South Wales Police Force because of excessive
Speaker 2: force or bad behavior. Or both and as they should be.
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, that's just in short three years. So you know,
Speaker 2: it is a case that it's I'm not defending or
Speaker 2: standing up for excessive force. No way in the world.
Speaker 2: We should not have violence on our streets, and violence
Speaker 2: on our streets should definitely not be from police officers.
Speaker 2: And as I say, if that is the case, then
Speaker 2: the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission will investigate that and will
Speaker 2: provide recommendations as they should.
Speaker 3: That's what their job is.
Speaker 2: The New South Wales Police is the organization that people
Speaker 2: will pick up the phone to ring triple zero when
Speaker 2: they need them, and I have to say that that
Speaker 2: is most people's interaction with police. Now your listeners might
Speaker 2: sit here and think that I'm defending them meet again,
Speaker 2: but that's just a reality. They go to nearly two million,
Speaker 2: they get nearly two million calls a year.
Speaker 1: It's insane numbers, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, I get that, and we hear
Speaker 2: a lot about the bad behavior, and we hear a
Speaker 2: lot about use of force, and again call it out
Speaker 2: if that is the case, yeah, because you should. But
Speaker 2: in some context then I would say remember also that
Speaker 2: the twenty thousand police officers people in the New South
Speaker 2: Wales police that we have out there. It's the large organization.
Speaker 2: Ninety nine percent of them are not doing that.
Speaker 1: Youth crime another very hot topic at the moment all
Speaker 1: over the country. Really, I know we're talking about New
Speaker 1: South Wales, but our listeners are from everywhere and it
Speaker 1: is you know, you see it playing out in Melbourne
Speaker 1: and Victoria and Queensland. We're constantly hearing about regional crime
Speaker 1: waves involving young people. This is something that you've recently
Speaker 1: tackled with some legislation. Can you talk us through what
Speaker 1: those changes are and what you're hoping we'll see from them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if you don't mind, I'll just start
Speaker 2: at the beginning. And again, this was coming into the
Speaker 2: cabinet root and our cabinet is fifty percent women, and
Speaker 2: this youth crime wave began. Anyway, we're sitting around and
Speaker 2: you know, these new set of eyes sitting there going well,
Speaker 2: hold up, this is just isn't all police. So we
Speaker 2: just kind of rest our way out of this. This
Speaker 2: is a problem and these are young people who we
Speaker 2: need to put on a different path. So speaking to
Speaker 2: the Attorney General, the Minister for Corrections, juvenile justice, et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera. There's about six of us in the portfolios, right,
Speaker 2: and so we're like, yeah, we've got to do something
Speaker 2: else than just arrest these kids. There has to be
Speaker 2: more to this. So that's why we made the legislative changes.
Speaker 2: So police made some changes. They had Operation Seteria and
Speaker 2: Operations sweeten Them, which is Sweetnam is here in the
Speaker 2: city in metropolitan areas. Operation Sateria is out in our
Speaker 2: regional areas, and that was a real focus on hot
Speaker 2: crime spot areas. So that was important and that took
Speaker 2: a lot of the ring leaders out of the equation.
Speaker 2: And you know, Touchwood, we haven't been It is a
Speaker 2: lot more under control as we sit here today. But
Speaker 2: some other areas of concern were the posting and boasting.
Speaker 2: So they were stealing cars and going on joy rides,
Speaker 2: filming it and then posting it. So that is now
Speaker 2: an offence. Break and enter into a home, so they
Speaker 2: are so brazen breaking and entering into a home filming
Speaker 2: that in some instances as well, like while people are
Speaker 2: sleeping with a knife over their head and the like,
Speaker 2: like horrific.
Speaker 1: It just teen ages, it's just wild, well.
Speaker 2: Young teenagers some of them like eleven twelve thirteen, I know,
Speaker 2: I know, I was still playing with Barbie.
Speaker 1: We're near a knife, but anyway.
Speaker 3: Me either.
Speaker 2: Also, I would have got into massive trouble if you
Speaker 2: weren't in better sleep, they would have got into big
Speaker 2: trouble at my house. There's those changes that we've made,
Speaker 2: and so to break and enters, then the judge has
Speaker 2: to consider whether or not to give you bail or not.
Speaker 2: So we're seeing that change, which has been good. But
Speaker 2: the thing that's most significant is the funding that we've
Speaker 2: sent through through all of us working together, the funding
Speaker 2: that we've injected into those communities for preventative and proactive results,
Speaker 2: and we're getting some really good results, which is fantastic,
Speaker 2: we're told by locals on the ground, so that's good.
Speaker 2: And we're also in Ma re building the place based
Speaker 2: facility there where if you have a recidivius defender, they
Speaker 2: can choose to go there and they'll have wrap around services, etc.
Speaker 2: So they'll be safe, they'll get the care they need
Speaker 2: and will have health there as well education, so the
Speaker 2: services will be wrapped around them and we hope to
Speaker 2: really steer those young people away from crime to a
Speaker 2: better life, and.
Speaker 1: It sounds like we're already seeing some results there.
Speaker 2: I think. So. I think it's I don't want to
Speaker 2: get to you know, talk it up too much. There's
Speaker 2: always more work to do. Like you know, there's crime
Speaker 2: in these little rural towns or big rural towns really
Speaker 2: and remote and regional areas. But we're seeing some green shoots.
Speaker 2: Police are saying that, community are saying that, like, you
Speaker 2: can't just go into a community and do this, that
Speaker 2: and the other. And I think that's the thing that
Speaker 2: this government has done really well. We've worked with the community,
Speaker 2: so local government will be at the table, the local
Speaker 2: services will be at the table, education, health, you name it.
Speaker 2: We work collaboratively and I have traveled this state with
Speaker 2: police doing exactly that, working with the community stakeholders for solutions.
Speaker 2: We're not here to point the finger, We're not here
Speaker 2: to do anything but solutions. And if we can change
Speaker 2: some of those young people's lives out of the criminal
Speaker 2: justice system onto a successful life, then wow, what a
Speaker 2: wonderful legacy that would be.
Speaker 1: What about systemic bias against Indigenous people in our country.
Speaker 1: Are we're seeing any green shoots in the right direction there?
Speaker 1: Because that is an issue that we've had for years, decades,
Speaker 1: long before you ever took these portfolios. But last year
Speaker 1: in New South Wales recorded near record Indigenous deaths in custody.
Speaker 1: What do we do with that information? How do we
Speaker 1: fix this?
Speaker 3: Well, you're quite right.
Speaker 2: Also, our rates of incarceration are increasing, and particularly women.
Speaker 2: We have to continue to keep working.
Speaker 3: Away at this.
Speaker 2: I want to say this though, my mate, the Minister
Speaker 2: for the Community Services, Kate Washington, she has and she's
Speaker 2: one of those women that sits around that table with
Speaker 2: me beging the table.
Speaker 3: She has.
Speaker 2: There are now no children living in hotels who are
Speaker 2: in out of home care now. There were more than
Speaker 2: a hundred when we came to government, and these were
Speaker 2: kids who were too hard, too difficult, it had been
Speaker 2: had horrible, awful lives. So we're chipping away. We're chipping
Speaker 2: away and a lot of those kids would have been
Speaker 2: First Nations kids, to be fair. So she's doing great work,
Speaker 2: amazing work in that area. But there's so much to do.
Speaker 2: I have to be honest with you, Emma, there is
Speaker 2: so much to do. There is a lot of societal
Speaker 2: need and I think working as a group and bouncing
Speaker 2: stuff off each other and working collaboratively instead of just
Speaker 2: working in silos is making some difference. I get it
Speaker 2: that people think it's a glacial pace, but we really
Speaker 2: are just digging away, digging away. Like everything that happens
Speaker 2: in police world, I'm like, that's the crisis, en, So
Speaker 2: I'm in there so as police don't have to do that.
Speaker 2: So they're out doing other stuff, because that's the goal, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: not to be locking up kids. Very true, that's the goal,
Speaker 2: you know. Obviously, I don't know that I'll ever be
Speaker 2: able to meet that absolute goal, but putting kids on
Speaker 2: a different pathway, you know. Giving We were up in
Speaker 2: Teenworth with the Premiere actually making an announcement about a
Speaker 2: significant investment into youth services, and there was a group
Speaker 2: up there and I just can't recall their name now,
Speaker 2: but I'll come back to you with the name of them,
Speaker 2: and they were they had Indigenous kids and they were
Speaker 2: setting them on a pathway into jobs and their success
Speaker 2: rates were fantastic. These are the sorts of organizations that
Speaker 2: the Premier and I assist supporting because they've got you know,
Speaker 2: they're not just doing a service and you don't sort
Speaker 2: of see any outcomes. They're actually delivering the goods and
Speaker 2: that's what you want to see. And the kids were there,
Speaker 2: the young young men, they're all young men, and I
Speaker 2: was sitting chatting with them and they were just telling
Speaker 2: me it was fantastic, you know, yet helping them get
Speaker 2: their license, helping them the things we all take for granted,
Speaker 2: many of us, and these kids don't have the role
Speaker 2: models in there or the stable family life that we
Speaker 2: take for granted, and having people in community replacing those
Speaker 2: roles is critical. They're the biggest hearted, most valuable people
Speaker 2: that you'd ever wished to meet, and they are wrapping
Speaker 2: themselves around these kids, assisting them to leave crime and
Speaker 2: to go on a pathway away from crime into be
Speaker 2: a success.
Speaker 3: Amazing.
Speaker 1: Ivan Malatt, it's a name most listeners will know. He's
Speaker 1: come up a lot in some of the cold cases
Speaker 1: that have been covered in New South Wales. We've had
Speaker 1: a lot of missing and murdered women and his name
Speaker 1: has popped up as a potential kind of perpetrator in
Speaker 1: those cases. And now we're looking at a New South
Speaker 1: Wales parliamentary inquiry into some of those cases. I know
Speaker 1: that you don't have much involvement in that inquiry. But
Speaker 1: as police minister, what are your thoughts on it and
Speaker 1: what has been your involvement in it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Jeremy Buckingham is the lead on this inquiry
Speaker 2: and I have actually worked closely with Jeremy as the
Speaker 2: Police Minister in terms of having him be briefed by
Speaker 2: senior police, making sure that he's aware of what the
Speaker 2: work police are doing. I think it's often the case
Speaker 2: that we don't understand or have any knowledge of what
Speaker 2: police are actually doing in the background because they don't
Speaker 2: tell us much so.
Speaker 3: Secrets for a reason, correct, correct.
Speaker 2: So in saying that though, when there's an inquiry like this,
Speaker 2: because it was quite broad reaching and we have to
Speaker 2: make sure that we don't use all the police resources
Speaker 2: that we've got on that whilst over here we've got
Speaker 2: you know, domestic violent, public play shootings, ye, CANi, terrorism issues,
Speaker 2: all of that sort of stuff. I don't think I
Speaker 2: need to describe to your listeners, well, the work they do.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's right, Yeah, yeah, your listeners no priorities are right.
Speaker 3: They're a woman, a mother, a wife, all of a daughter.
Speaker 2: Going to make sure we fit mum and dad in
Speaker 2: it sometime as well. So I have actually assisted a
Speaker 2: lot to make sure that he has been fully briefed
Speaker 2: and that the scope of the inquiry is quite specific.
Speaker 3: So that's a good thing, but it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Waste correctly, say resources, time, et cetera.
Speaker 3: Spot on, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's great when it gets going and and
Speaker 2: the scope is quite specific, and police are more that
Speaker 2: happy to work with him. Like from our perspective, we're
Speaker 2: more than happy to work with him. There'll be other
Speaker 2: people coming in of course, but into the inquiry. But yeah,
Speaker 2: no police, I think that he would say that they've
Speaker 2: been fantastic.
Speaker 1: It is crazy to think that we're going to have
Speaker 1: an inquiry into Ivan Malat. He's been dead many years now.
Speaker 1: His crimes were you know, a few decades ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Police haven't discounted though that there may be other murders
Speaker 2: that they discover that he has been part of, So
Speaker 2: I do know that for sure. So they're quite you know,
Speaker 2: open minded about you know, if they do find any
Speaker 2: that they've got the evidence there to be able to
Speaker 2: make the links. Like when we were talking about having
Speaker 2: the evidence, making sure we keep all of the evidence
Speaker 2: you know in a state that's easy to find, and
Speaker 2: we put a lot of money into doing that, which
Speaker 2: is great. Prior to the Special Commission of Inquiry by
Speaker 2: Justice Sucker, there was evidence in different locations around the state.
Speaker 2: We've now bought all of that together, which is critically important,
Speaker 2: and it's all been properly logged, etc.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the personal side of this job, because,
Speaker 1: as we've touched on, it is one that attracts a
Speaker 1: lot of criticism, you know, a lot of anger from
Speaker 1: members of the public. Has your personal safety or your
Speaker 1: family's personal safety been something you've had to think about sadly?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, But don't you find that You know, people
Speaker 2: are so willing now to be a keyboard warrior and
Speaker 2: say whatever the bloody.
Speaker 1: Hell they want behind a screen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty I'm just pretty charp for right. And
Speaker 2: if somebody wants to say something to me, come and
Speaker 2: say it to me. I'll have the conversation with you,
Speaker 2: and whether we agree or not, that's fine. But I
Speaker 2: don't walk away from my problems. I don't walk away
Speaker 2: from If I've done something wrong, I'll admit it. I
Speaker 2: don't walk away from me. And that's just who I am.
Speaker 2: I think growing up in a working class family with
Speaker 2: not much. And that's just who I am. But if
Speaker 2: you've got a criticism of me, you know, come and
Speaker 2: see me. My family are not in this job.
Speaker 3: It's my job.
Speaker 2: My staff, they're not open game either. I worry about them.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people out there who are
Speaker 2: that type things that I don't think those words would
Speaker 2: ever exit their mouth. And they're vile, they're offensive, and
Speaker 2: they're threatening.
Speaker 1: Which is not fair. You're just doing your job.
Speaker 3: True. Yeah, Look, I'm not alone. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2: I think public figures generally are probably receiving more vitriol
Speaker 2: than ever before. And I mean good. We've seen murders,
Speaker 2: you know, in both the UK. That young MP that
Speaker 2: was out doing a street store got stabbed. We saw
Speaker 2: the America shooting like I hope to god we never
Speaker 2: see that here. But again, if you know of anyone
Speaker 2: who's doing it, then call it out, like I saw
Speaker 2: that stuff on the thing about Justinta Allen down in
Speaker 2: ditch the witch.
Speaker 3: You know what that is wrong?
Speaker 2: Call it out, And I say this, go back, This
Speaker 2: is a lesson I learned from the Jewish community quite frankly,
Speaker 2: go back to our conversation and back to twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three and they felt vulnerable and they felt like they
Speaker 2: were being attacked, and listen to them, Listen to them
Speaker 2: and act don't accept it. Don't accept it for women
Speaker 2: because it's that sort of behavior that leads to the
Speaker 2: type of behavior that we talked about, the control the behaviors. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: it could be the death of a woman. If we
Speaker 2: don't call all this stuff out, then shame on us.
Speaker 1: Lastly, Yasmond, what do you want true crime conversations and
Speaker 1: listeners to walk away from our listening to us? Because
Speaker 1: every week they're hearing about the most horrible things that
Speaker 1: humans can do to other people, and often, unfortunately, they're
Speaker 1: also hearing about, you know, issues that the victims or
Speaker 1: families are coming up against with police or courts or
Speaker 1: perpetrators getting back out. What do you want them to
Speaker 1: take from hearing about the inside process of what it
Speaker 1: means to change the systems.
Speaker 2: It's a pretty simple message from me, and it's if
Speaker 2: you see something that does not sit right with you,
Speaker 2: then report it. That means, if you see a person
Speaker 2: treating someone wrong, report it or say something to someone.
Speaker 2: If you see a police officer doing the wrong thing,
Speaker 2: do the same. If you see anybody harassing a person
Speaker 2: because of their race or their sexuality or that they're
Speaker 2: a female, say something. If we don't stand up for
Speaker 2: one another and become that society that look after each other,
Speaker 2: then we will continue to disintegrate.
Speaker 1: So you think even within those systems, the police systems,
Speaker 1: speak up if it's not working for you. In the
Speaker 1: court systems, yes, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: There are so many oversight bodies there to look at
Speaker 2: these things. Go to your local member. I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: a local member at the end of the day and
Speaker 2: I have people coming in telling me all sorts of
Speaker 2: grievances with whoever it is. It's usually the last protocol,
Speaker 2: you know. They people are frustrated and they've called this
Speaker 2: one and done this and done that, and they've just
Speaker 2: like hit a brick wall and then they end up
Speaker 2: in my office on the specific highway it Swansea. They
Speaker 2: come in and I say, well, sit down and let's
Speaker 2: go through it.
Speaker 3: So we do.
Speaker 2: And it's important that you do do that, and maybe
Speaker 2: you may not get the result that you were looking for,
Speaker 2: but you'll certainly have it looked at. That's what's important.
Speaker 2: And you need to know that in a democracy, in
Speaker 2: our democracy, that you have the ability to do that
Speaker 2: because of our electoral system that we're our voting system,
Speaker 2: the person that is there that you elected will stand
Speaker 2: up for you.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good place to end. Thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us, Yasmin.
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Yasmin Katley for joining us on this episode.
Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating
Speaker 1: and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to let us know.
Speaker 1: And if you aren't following us on TikTok and Instagram,
Speaker 1: our handle is true Crime Conversations. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true Crime Conversation.