Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: MoMA Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the twenty seventh of August.
Speaker 3: It's a hard day to put the show together, isn't it, Hallywayen.
Speaker 2: Right, it really is. I am Holly Wayne Right.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester and friends.
Speaker 2: Today little girls everywhere got a reminder on blast that
Speaker 2: no matter what greatness you achieve in your life, nothing
Speaker 2: will be more celebrated than the moment a man choose.
Speaker 2: Oh Holly, come on, is that notthing? Sorry, let me buffer,
Speaker 2: let me try that again, Okay.
Speaker 1: Squire.
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelc a engaged twenty five exclamation marks.
Speaker 3: Woot.
Speaker 2: Of course, we've been up since dawn curating all the
Speaker 2: hot takes for you. If only Infamous Swifty Mia Friedman
Speaker 2: was here for this historic man I'd.
Speaker 1: See only we unpacked the shocking news from Canberra about
Speaker 1: state sanctioned terrorism in Australia.
Speaker 3: And Northwest went out for a lovely dinner with her
Speaker 3: mother Kim Kardashian in Rome.
Speaker 4: But all anyone can talk.
Speaker 3: About is what North chose to wear and how it's
Speaker 3: all Kim's fault.
Speaker 2: But first, people, Taylor Swift is getting married. It's a
Speaker 2: love story. And she said, yes, Etta, I thought we've
Speaker 2: got rid of you.
Speaker 3: That might be Taylor's sweating dress.
Speaker 4: What you're wearing.
Speaker 5: Because this to her concert. And I actually thought that
Speaker 5: this was like an NFL jersey. Apparently it's baseball.
Speaker 4: I think it's ice hockey. Yeah, some kind of hockey
Speaker 4: is thing.
Speaker 2: Ladies and the very few gentlemen want me. Hello, she
Speaker 2: was gonna sit this in. You didn't even know.
Speaker 6: Happy Taylor Engagement Day for those who celebrate you and
Speaker 6: me pretty.
Speaker 2: Much how she feel, not really me? This morning at
Speaker 2: three a high school. This morning, at three am Eastern
Speaker 2: Standard time, an Instagram post appeared on the accounts of
Speaker 2: both Taylor Swift and someone called Killer Trav. The imagery
Speaker 2: is peak flower arch and amid the blooms stands Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift with American Football's titust end Travis Kelcey kneeling before
Speaker 2: her as he should, with four other gorgeously smiling kissy
Speaker 2: pictures to follow. And the caption that simply reads, your
Speaker 2: English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married Stick
Speaker 2: of dynamite and the world imploded.
Speaker 4: Go Maya, how do you feel today?
Speaker 1: I feel good. I knew.
Speaker 5: I'm not surprised. I knew this was happening.
Speaker 6: I think it is a good thing. I always thought
Speaker 6: they were endgame. Really yeah, yeah, I think they are
Speaker 6: so perfectly suited. And if there was ever any doubt
Speaker 6: I think it was very much locked and loaded when
Speaker 6: they rolled out formally rolled out there. I don't want
Speaker 6: to say brand because that sounds cynical. They rolled out
Speaker 6: themselves as a couple on the podcast a couple of
Speaker 6: weeks ago, on the Kelsey Brothers podcast, and I looked
Speaker 6: at it and I just thought, oh, they are so perfect.
Speaker 3: And what did you think of the actual announcement? She
Speaker 3: appears to be in a forest. I mean it is
Speaker 3: in August, which is allegedly a song that hard.
Speaker 2: Does anyone know what the stick of dynamite?
Speaker 4: I know what it means? Oh good, TNT Travis.
Speaker 3: And Taylor, Yeah yeah, yeah, Travis and Taylor give us
Speaker 3: an analysis of that.
Speaker 4: They're in the flowers.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so the thing to understand I have a friend
Speaker 6: who is a swiftie who has never liked Travis for
Speaker 6: Taylor and has always thought that he was too basic,
Speaker 6: too much of a buffhead. The thing about Travis and
Speaker 6: the reason that I think he's so perfect for her
Speaker 6: on so many levels, the most important thing is how
Speaker 6: much they've got in common. I mean, as he said
Speaker 6: on the podcast, they're both stadium entertainers. Now, who else
Speaker 6: in the world can really understand what that's like. A
Speaker 6: few people, not many people we've played.
Speaker 2: I think we can call it of those places state.
Speaker 6: So they're both incredibly successful and competitive in their own fields.
Speaker 6: They're not in the same field, which is interesting, and
Speaker 6: she's obviously on a whole other level. But family is
Speaker 6: incredibly important to both of them.
Speaker 5: And they're both daggy.
Speaker 6: And I say that with the greatest respect and affection,
Speaker 6: because Taylor has always been a bit cringe and cheese
Speaker 6: and she's owned that like that's part of her charm.
Speaker 1: I always remember, after what we believed to be their
Speaker 1: first date, or the first public date, because their first
Speaker 1: date may have been before that, when she went to
Speaker 1: see him play football. He took her for a ride
Speaker 1: afterwards in his convertible. Do you remember this detail? And
Speaker 1: on the roof of the convertible it has the stars
Speaker 1: because he wanted a reminder to always reach for them. Now,
Speaker 1: if that's Taylor coded, I don't know.
Speaker 6: They're both very earnest in their way, but also very goofy,
Speaker 6: Like she's always really embraced the daggy dancing.
Speaker 5: She's not she's not Beyonce, she's not incredibly slip.
Speaker 2: She's very relatable and so is he today as everybody's
Speaker 2: losing their minds. There's lots of narrative that you know,
Speaker 2: I have a problem with, but we'll get to that later.
Speaker 2: That Like, we've seen her through all these relationships that
Speaker 2: weren't right and this is the right one. Do you
Speaker 2: think that the tortured poets, all that stuff, all those
Speaker 2: bad boys she was dating, all the ones who wanted
Speaker 2: to go under the radar, or do you think she
Speaker 2: was pretending or do you think she's evolved into this
Speaker 2: version of herself. Like I don't mean pretending for the audience,
Speaker 2: I mean you know how sometimes you bury bits of
Speaker 2: yourself in relationships. So what you're saying is they're perfect
Speaker 2: for each other because they meet each other in ambition
Speaker 2: and she yeah, and like all American dagginess. Do you
Speaker 2: think that's who she's always been? But she was trying
Speaker 2: to convince herself, Oh no, I'm like, I'm more Maddy. Heally,
Speaker 2: I'm more.
Speaker 4: That's interesting.
Speaker 6: I think that we all visit different versions of ourselves
Speaker 6: depending on I don't know if guys do this, but
Speaker 6: I know I did it depending on who I've dated.
Speaker 6: And I think that the most important thing about Travis
Speaker 6: is that for the first time since I've she hasn't
Speaker 6: had to dim her light because she hasn't had to
Speaker 6: worry about emasculating a man. And I completely understand, you know,
Speaker 6: Joe awhen which was a really formative relationship for her,
Speaker 6: And certainly thank you Joe for some amazing music, even
Speaker 6: to Jake Gillenhole, Harry Styles, all of those we got
Speaker 6: John Maye, We've got some great music Travis, because she's happy,
Speaker 6: you know, he's so high School's probably not Taylor's best
Speaker 6: but as someone who thinks she's an amazing artist, but
Speaker 6: she's also just a person, She's also just a woman who's.
Speaker 3: What's around my age. There are some concerns in the
Speaker 3: office by single girls that they're going, I don't want
Speaker 3: an album about a joint mortgage. I don't want an
Speaker 3: album about yeah, you know, little petty fights. Like hasn't
Speaker 3: her best music been during those tumultuous years. But I
Speaker 3: think that two thousand and eight Love Story came out,
Speaker 3: which was for the basic among us, that was kind
Speaker 3: of when Taylor Swift burst onto the scene. That was
Speaker 3: the year that I graduated high school. It was everywhere.
Speaker 3: It was Romeo and Juliet, and it's her coming out
Speaker 3: just basically professing her position as a hopeless romantic, which
Speaker 3: kind of wasn't the vibe then. And she was a
Speaker 3: very earnest millennial figure, right, And so to watch her now,
Speaker 3: seventeen years later, having finally it feels like there's this
Speaker 3: arc or this plot that's very I don't know, I
Speaker 3: feel like we have been rooting for her and she
Speaker 3: had these really low moments with the awful Jake Jillenhole.
Speaker 2: You're upsetting me, Jesse.
Speaker 1: What I think you're saying here, which is something that
Speaker 1: I've been feeling today. For millennials, this is the end
Speaker 1: of an arc. It's the end of an era. And
Speaker 1: I know that Holly will tell us that the happy
Speaker 1: ending is the whole rest of your life, and that
Speaker 1: that's the work in progress. But for millennials in particular,
Speaker 1: it does feel like this is the moment that we
Speaker 1: see the culmination of our youth.
Speaker 3: And we all know the feeling of watching a friend
Speaker 3: who has dated total duds and has had really difficult
Speaker 3: moments finding their person.
Speaker 4: And I will lie you upset. I just think that's
Speaker 4: a lovely thing.
Speaker 5: Why are you reigning on.
Speaker 2: Taylor's pat I don't want to rain on her parade.
Speaker 2: I'm very happy for her, But I want to say
Speaker 2: to all the single girls crying in their lattes this morning,
Speaker 2: and there are some, there are some in this office
Speaker 2: who are like, fuck another fucking happy couple, Like here
Speaker 2: we go. This isn't the ending of anything. Weddings and
Speaker 2: engagements are not the endings of anything. There's no happy ending.
Speaker 2: Almost done, now, well done, dusting her hands. Ask anyone
Speaker 2: who's been married for more than five minutes if the
Speaker 2: wedding and the marriage is the end. There is a
Speaker 2: lot to go. Taylor's got a lot of life left
Speaker 2: to live. We all know people whose marriages didn't work out,
Speaker 2: So let's not get too caught up in the happy
Speaker 2: ending of it.
Speaker 5: That's romantic.
Speaker 6: She's not up here for me, not someone who's ever
Speaker 6: been like I need a man to complete me.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything wrong.
Speaker 2: Isn't every single one of her songs about that?
Speaker 6: No? I think that looking for great love is not
Speaker 6: retro or something to be embarrassed about or ashamed about.
Speaker 5: But it doesn't have to define you, Like she's been
Speaker 5: very clear that, Yeah, she's pretty complete.
Speaker 6: Her own, and she's got goals to kick, and she's
Speaker 6: kicked all all of the ones that you can think of,
Speaker 6: and she continues to kick more.
Speaker 3: And what she always wanted, like even from that two
Speaker 3: thousand and eight thing, which which I don't relate with
Speaker 3: but I respect, is a loud love. She wanted someone
Speaker 3: who professed their love for her and this, yeah, Travis
Speaker 3: is loud live.
Speaker 1: But me, I do have to say that her greatest
Speaker 1: music has been about looking for love. Are you worried
Speaker 1: that her music now is going to suffer with happiness?
Speaker 6: No, because what we saw with Folklore and Evermore and
Speaker 6: she said she's going to do this again. Not with
Speaker 6: Life of a Show God, because that's about behind the
Speaker 6: scenes of when she was doing the ears tool, but
Speaker 6: she said with those two albums she really enjoyed writing
Speaker 6: songs from the perspective of characters, and that was the
Speaker 6: first time she'd done that because you know, before that
Speaker 6: she'd always mind her life and often her love life.
Speaker 6: But some of her greatest songs are about being betrayed
Speaker 6: in business, you know as well and being betrayed. You know.
Speaker 6: The whole Reputation album was extraordinary, and that wasn't about love.
Speaker 6: That was about being canceled.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you Mia as a resident you know,
Speaker 2: obviously swifty but also pr expert.
Speaker 5: Oh tree Pain, Big day for tree Pain.
Speaker 2: One of the things that marks this relationship very much,
Speaker 2: as we've already touched on, is how public it is.
Speaker 2: It's very public, this relationship and this engagement announcement is
Speaker 2: very public. The way that it was said it was
Speaker 2: for the fans, like the English teacher and the gym teacher.
Speaker 2: It's gorgeous, but it's for the fans. Right, what's the
Speaker 2: wedding going to be? Like, I am obsessed now about it.
Speaker 2: This is a royal wedding. This is America's royal wedding,
Speaker 2: and I am now obsessed that maybe they should lean
Speaker 2: into that and down the streets of Kansas City. We
Speaker 2: should have an open topped rainbow carriage pulled by unicorns,
Speaker 2: and all the girls and the gays can be out
Speaker 2: applauding it. That would be brilliant. Donald Trump has made
Speaker 2: a stake.
Speaker 3: A lot of fans are saying, I'll buy tickets. They
Speaker 3: went to the Eras tour. This is their Eras tour.
Speaker 3: They'll watch well they get married at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2: Is it possible to have a private wedding if you're
Speaker 2: the most famous woman in the world.
Speaker 6: I think so, because when Taylor Swift wants to disappear,
Speaker 6: she disappears, knows how to disappear.
Speaker 5: She's disappeared for years at a time.
Speaker 6: So I think that sharing this with the world is
Speaker 6: lovely and it's in large part of service to her fans,
Speaker 6: who were very, very invested. But she has always done
Speaker 6: things on her terms. I don't think we should be
Speaker 6: worried about her.
Speaker 5: I must say.
Speaker 6: Part of me was like, oh, we should have kept
Speaker 6: this private, But then I'm like why, like for the
Speaker 6: first time she's with someone who's not emasculated, or like, oh,
Speaker 6: we mustn't be seen together on a red carpet. We
Speaker 6: mustn't be seen in public, Like for six or seven
Speaker 6: years with Joe Alvin, she had to hide, she had
Speaker 6: to like sneak in and out.
Speaker 5: Of cars, and like, how would that make you feel?
Speaker 3: There's a theory which I think you'll really like that
Speaker 3: the announcement was a homage to tree pain because she
Speaker 3: was surrounded by train trees.
Speaker 1: See.
Speaker 5: I loved that.
Speaker 6: I think about your proposal, Jesse, because I had a
Speaker 6: friend who's like, he was wearing shorts and loafers with
Speaker 6: new socks and ooh and yuck, And.
Speaker 2: I was like, is that about that?
Speaker 6: You know what your betrothed was wearing when he proposed
Speaker 6: to you, what you were wearing. None of that matters,
Speaker 6: None of it matters.
Speaker 5: And there was something.
Speaker 6: Really daggy about it in the most over the top way,
Speaker 6: of course, which I absolutely loved, which made it feel
Speaker 6: very real to me.
Speaker 2: They're a world in which, you know how you said,
Speaker 2: Taylor does everything on her terms, and we all know
Speaker 2: that she loves to trick us, Queen of the missed direction.
Speaker 2: Is it possible that they're already married?
Speaker 6: No, but I do think this happened a couple of
Speaker 6: weeks ago like, I think that there's been time. I
Speaker 6: don't think it happened yesterday.
Speaker 3: And there were hints over the weekend, quotes from Travis
Speaker 3: Kelsey's parents that suggested they knew.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, absolutely, I think you know, just like with
Speaker 6: your proposal, there were people around them that were clued in,
Speaker 6: and I'm sure Tree knew.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 3: Theory among just the Out Loud team is that Travis
Speaker 3: Kelcey did ask Tree pain one hundred percent Taylor's.
Speaker 6: For Scott, her father, he would have had to go
Speaker 6: and ask Tree and fair enough.
Speaker 3: One more tidbit I need to share, please, Blake Lively
Speaker 3: has not at the time of recording lying to the post.
Speaker 2: I'm very upset about that.
Speaker 4: And what does that tell us?
Speaker 3: No, I just think she's not going to be made
Speaker 3: of honor.
Speaker 5: I think it's messy.
Speaker 6: I think that we all have friendships that we've left
Speaker 6: behind for various reasons, usually not as high profile as
Speaker 6: lawsuits and things like that, but we all do. And
Speaker 6: it's kind of a bittersweet when someone that you were
Speaker 6: super close to has this life milestone, whether it's a
Speaker 6: happy one like this or a sad one like losing
Speaker 6: a parent, you sort of feel like you should reach out.
Speaker 6: Just because she didn't like it on Instagram does not
Speaker 6: mean she didn't necessarily text. But I think probably her
Speaker 6: number is blocked. I think Tree would have seen to that.
Speaker 5: Guys, there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 6: There's the ring, There's whether or not she was surprised,
Speaker 6: There's a lot.
Speaker 3: Of There was the nearly twelve months ago to the day,
Speaker 3: there was a leaked breakup plan, which was a big
Speaker 3: topic of discussion, and I just want to go back
Speaker 3: to that, revisit what we said.
Speaker 5: And there are a lot of clues.
Speaker 6: I've been diving deeper. We shocked to hear about a
Speaker 6: lot of clues. The Swifties have done their work, and
Speaker 6: there are a lot of clues in the announcement, in
Speaker 6: the photo. There's a lot still to talk about. So
Speaker 6: I'm sure you've probably got other topics to talk about.
Speaker 6: I don't know what they are, sure they'll be great.
Speaker 6: I don't really want to talk about anything else today, Okay,
Speaker 6: So I think I'll excuse myself and go do some
Speaker 6: more research and maybe see you in a subs episode.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I that would be amazing.
Speaker 1: Sounds good.
Speaker 3: I have one more thing to say about the announcement
Speaker 3: Kill a Trav.
Speaker 4: So the first thing I thought I won't.
Speaker 3: I checked Instagram because that's how it goes, and I
Speaker 3: saw kill a Trav and I went home follow Killer Trav.
Speaker 3: Who the hell is that she can't marry kill a Trap?
Speaker 3: He has to change his Instagram handle and then maybe
Speaker 3: she will follow him, because she still doesn't follow him
Speaker 3: on Instagram.
Speaker 4: Change it to Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 3: It just screams he made it when he was twelve,
Speaker 3: didn't realize he'd become so famoure. Now he's marrying Taylor
Speaker 3: Swift and he is Killer Trav on Instagram.
Speaker 2: I'm horrified over to a different kind of Royalty. I
Speaker 2: have generously been given one whole minute. This is very
Speaker 2: troubling for me to bring you up to speed on
Speaker 2: what's been happening in princess business this week. Okay, which,
Speaker 2: to be honest, since this week one of my tailors,
Speaker 2: Megan Markle, launched an show and did a whole, big,
Speaker 2: long form interview. This is very cruel, but I understand
Speaker 2: we've been usurped by the way at Royalty. So here's
Speaker 2: my quick rundown of what's been happening in Princess business
Speaker 2: this week? Season two as ever, Sorry with love, Megan,
Speaker 2: Why isn't it called the same thing? It's bad for?
Speaker 2: Brand has dropped? And what's weird about it? Considering that
Speaker 2: season one we had to sit through lots of people
Speaker 2: we've never met before making candles, is that this season
Speaker 2: it's got cred right. Episode one has got David Chang
Speaker 2: on it. Now, you might not know who he is
Speaker 2: Jesse because you don't like food, but here is a
Speaker 2: big deal. He's the momo fuku guy. He is a
Speaker 2: big deal.
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Is he the one who makes a lobster? I've seen
Speaker 3: a clip no no no.
Speaker 2: Episode two has Chrissy Tagan and episode eight with the lobster,
Speaker 2: that's jose Andres. He is massively famous and he's the
Speaker 2: founder of World Central Kitchen. Like he is a massive deal.
Speaker 2: So why did she keep all the good people for
Speaker 2: the second season? I am very confused about that. Same day,
Speaker 2: Meg sits down for a long form interview with Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Emily Chang in a bookstore. Presumably this is where she
Speaker 2: chose to be interviewed in a bookstore. You like books,
Speaker 2: says Emily Chang, looking around. What are you reading right now?
Speaker 2: Reading says Megan. Oh, I read to my kids. I
Speaker 2: read self help, but mostly Emily. She says this, and
Speaker 2: then my late.
Speaker 5: Night indulgence now is just a lot of duolingo?
Speaker 2: Do you ever do know?
Speaker 5: That's great when I could find the time. What are
Speaker 5: you do olingoing? I'm dual lingering French.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I committed to relearning it.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, me too, megs me too. As you know,
Speaker 2: I'm naturally we are basically the same person. Meanwhile, over
Speaker 2: in that place that Megan's not allowed to go to anymore,
Speaker 2: Princess Catherine got the world momentarily obsessed with the fact
Speaker 2: that she had dyed her hair blonde. Now, I can't
Speaker 2: really explain to you how I know, deep in my
Speaker 2: soul she did not dye her hair blonde. Princess Catherine
Speaker 2: is no more allowed to dye her hair blonde than
Speaker 2: she is to pick her undie's out of her But.
Speaker 3: I saw those pictures of her in the limousine or something,
Speaker 3: and they think that it's blonde.
Speaker 4: Is it just light the lighting?
Speaker 2: It's a pat picture right through a car window that
Speaker 2: looks like she's gone proper blonde blonde. But a strategic
Speaker 2: leak has already been placed with the Daily Mail that says,
Speaker 2: this is just yacht tad. She has spent the summer
Speaker 2: in Greece and she's slowly been lightning her brown from
Speaker 2: chestnut to more caramelli and there's just a bit of
Speaker 2: summer sun on it. And that is worth a thousand headlines?
Speaker 2: Did I do well on my princess update? I updated
Speaker 2: very well.
Speaker 3: You missed the part where I saw that Meghan got
Speaker 3: gifted by Harry the big portrait.
Speaker 4: Have you seen this?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, on her Instagram today, a big black and white
Speaker 3: portrait of her laying in a field with her dog.
Speaker 4: I think it might be her late dog.
Speaker 1: One more thing too. You missed something else We learned
Speaker 1: from the season two of this TV show that for
Speaker 1: Harry's fortieth birthday had hats printed that said P forty
Speaker 1: for his friends to wear. I just want to emphasize
Speaker 1: to you that that means that they ask their friends
Speaker 1: to call him Prince Harry.
Speaker 2: PH Prince Harry. Look, if this was a different day,
Speaker 2: if Taylor Swift had not made her announcement, we would
Speaker 2: be talking for hours and you would be under sufferance
Speaker 2: at me talking about that all of this Easter eggs
Speaker 2: in the as Ever with Love Megan, So just count
Speaker 2: yourself lucky that we're not doing that.
Speaker 3: Now one's watching that season, Hollywayen right, No One.
Speaker 1: In a moment. A shocking announcement from the PM about
Speaker 1: terrorist attacks on Australian soil. So yesterday we had some
Speaker 1: shocking and pretty surprising news from Canberra. Prime Minister Anthony
Speaker 1: Albanezi stood in the courtyard at Parliament House and he
Speaker 1: pinned last year's anti Semitic attacks that happened in Melbourne
Speaker 1: and in Sydney on a foreign power, and that foreign
Speaker 1: power is Iran. The revelation hinges on intelligence from Australia
Speaker 1: spy agencies. And the way that you know this is
Speaker 1: a big deal is when the head of AZIO, the
Speaker 1: super secret spy agency, actually comes out to talk to
Speaker 1: the press, and that happened yesterday. His name is Mike Burgess.
Speaker 1: He explained that the December attack on a Melbourne synagogue
Speaker 1: and the October attack on Sydney's Lewis Continental Kitchen were
Speaker 1: ordered by Iran. So he stressed that Iran themselves, Iranian diplomats,
Speaker 1: didn't conduct these attacks. They likely engaged a third party
Speaker 1: criminal organization to do them for them. I also want
Speaker 1: to mention that Iran denies the allegations. Iran's Foreign minister
Speaker 1: has said that there are dozens of synagogues in Iran
Speaker 1: and it made zero sense for Iran to attack these
Speaker 1: sites in Australia. But I do have to say that
Speaker 1: these allegations are so extraordinary, so unusual, so out of
Speaker 1: left field, that Alberesi and the Australian intelligence authorities had
Speaker 1: to have been absolutely certain in what they said yesterday.
Speaker 1: There would be no doubt when they announced this. So
Speaker 1: let's hear what Alberanzi did have to say.
Speaker 7: These were extraordinary and dangerous ects of a Russian orchestrated
Speaker 7: by a foreign nation on Australian soil. They were attempts
Speaker 7: to undermine social cohesion and so discord in our community.
Speaker 7: It is totally unacceptable and the Australian government is taking
Speaker 7: strong and decisive action in response.
Speaker 1: So in response, what has Albanezi done. He has expelled
Speaker 1: Iran's ambassador to Australia. That hasn't happened since World War II,
Speaker 1: and three other Iranian diplomats were photographed late last night
Speaker 1: in a car fleeing the country. There's so much that
Speaker 1: we still don't know about this story. There's so many
Speaker 1: questions about it. But one unexpected development to come out
Speaker 1: of it is that Iran and Israel, who has sworn enemies,
Speaker 1: now agree on one thing, and that one thing is
Speaker 1: they do not like Australia. Last week, Albanzi was sparring
Speaker 1: with Benjamin Netanyahu, who's Israel's Prime minister and now Iran's
Speaker 1: foreign minister, posted on x overnight that Netanya, who is
Speaker 1: right about one thing, Australia's Prime minister, is indeed a
Speaker 1: weak politician.
Speaker 2: I bet that Albernezi is wishing he could change the subject.
Speaker 2: I have one question why Australia, Like why would Iran
Speaker 2: use Australia as a particular target for this.
Speaker 1: It's such a good question and I don't think we
Speaker 1: know the answer. So Iran has been linked to terra
Speaker 1: plots in other countries in the US and Mark, Belgium, Albania,
Speaker 1: but the last big report on that activity came before
Speaker 1: October seven, and as far as we know, as far
Speaker 1: as I know, there hasn't been a direct specific link
Speaker 1: made of this kind to terrorist activity in the West
Speaker 1: since then.
Speaker 3: Australia has the seventh largest Jewish population in the world,
Speaker 3: so I mean it's significant, but it's it's not the largest, like,
Speaker 3: and that's obviously outside of Israel. But reading all of
Speaker 3: this and reading the details of you know, the text
Speaker 3: messages and stuff they've got from the planning, what's remarkable
Speaker 3: and so lucky is that no one was her Like,
Speaker 3: there was someone hurt. Actually there was someone injured during
Speaker 3: the arts and attack, And of course they're saying that
Speaker 3: they think a few of the other targeted attacks on
Speaker 3: Jewish businesses and stuff, Iran was behind that. But the
Speaker 3: fact that no one was hurt is pretty incredible.
Speaker 2: Just to use real layman's terms, and please correct me,
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, but is that because not I mean,
Speaker 2: not their lack of casualties, But is that because when
Speaker 2: you say they didn't carry out these incidents, but they're
Speaker 2: literally organizing and paying like petty criminals or organized.
Speaker 4: Don't seem to have any really.
Speaker 2: Like no deep affiliation, but to do this for them, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then how effective they are is kind of beyond
Speaker 2: Iran's control. But what it certainly succeeds in doing is destabilizing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, Yeah, the funny thing is too that
Speaker 1: Australia by some measures, has fallen behind other Western nations
Speaker 1: in sanctioning Iran so quick. Bringing you up to speed
Speaker 1: on many many years of irun in history is that
Speaker 1: it has been ruled by this extremist religious regime since
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. Since its revolutions of Western countries have
Speaker 1: taken steps to sanction and to punish that extremist religious regime.
Speaker 4: In various ways.
Speaker 1: Australia has really been behind the rest of the park
Speaker 1: in terms of doing that. So Albinizi just said that
Speaker 1: he's going to sanction the Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corp. They're
Speaker 1: kind of like the secret religious police there. But for instance,
Speaker 1: the US and lots of other Western countries had already
Speaker 1: said that that group was a terrorist organization. So it's
Speaker 1: almost like by doing this, Iran's kind of goading Australia
Speaker 1: into coming up to speed with the rest of the
Speaker 1: West in sanctioning them.
Speaker 3: It's very odd, and what it did achieve was its
Speaker 3: goal of terrorizing the Jewish community.
Speaker 4: Like it said, it's horrific.
Speaker 3: There are just to know that these attacks were so
Speaker 3: targeted and by a foreign power. I think is terrifying
Speaker 3: and it continues to compromise social cohesion. There's an incredible
Speaker 3: article by Kylie Moore Gilbert in the Sydney Morning Herald
Speaker 3: in the Age where she right about she was.
Speaker 4: Imprisoned in Iran.
Speaker 3: She's an Australian academic and she says that in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty she was being interrogated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps
Speaker 3: and they were presenting her with a paper with the
Speaker 3: names and addresses of multiple synagogues in Melbourne and wanted information.
Speaker 3: So what she's trying to say is that her, along
Speaker 3: with lots of members of Iranian Diaspra, have been saying
Speaker 3: for a long time these are really dangerous people, basically
Speaker 3: call them a terrorist organization, and now Australia has come
Speaker 3: to the table and kind of acknowledged just how dangerous
Speaker 3: they are. This operation as well has been so interesting
Speaker 3: because what Australia needed to do was get their diplomats
Speaker 3: out of Iran before they did any of this to
Speaker 3: keep everyone everyone safe. So yeah, we are just going
Speaker 3: to learn a lot more about this in the coming
Speaker 3: weeks and months after the break Northwest, the daughter of
Speaker 3: Kim Kardashian and Kanye West went to dinner in a
Speaker 3: corset and everyone is clutching their pearls.
Speaker 4: Holly needs a moment to puff fish.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: This week, Northwest and her mother, Kim Kardashian were spotted
Speaker 3: in Rome, having no doubt a very lovely meal. Paparazzi
Speaker 3: pictures began to circulate, which North has been experiencing her
Speaker 3: whole life, but this time the commentary was very different.
Speaker 3: For context, North is twelve, She is the eldest of
Speaker 3: Kim and Kanye's four kids. Kim and Kanye are divorced,
Speaker 3: and she was wearing a black corset, a short skirt,
Speaker 3: and chunky black boots, and the Internet swiftly decided that
Speaker 3: this was not appropriate attire for child.
Speaker 4: The thing about twelve year.
Speaker 3: Old girls, as someone who was once a very awkward
Speaker 3: twelve year old girl knows, is that some still look
Speaker 3: like kids, and others have begun to change. And you
Speaker 3: have no control over that west And I hate to
Speaker 3: even say this, but unfortunately it's important context. She falls
Speaker 3: into the latter category, so she might look different in
Speaker 3: a corset to how another twelve year old may look
Speaker 3: in a corset. Comments started flooding in about how inappropriate
Speaker 3: North's outfit was, reminding Kim that her daughter was only twelve,
Speaker 3: which I'm sure she'd forgotten. One comment read not a
Speaker 3: fan of a busty air on a twelve year old.
Speaker 3: Another said it's Kim's job to preserve her daughter's innocence,
Speaker 3: and another said why does North look thirty two? Then
Speaker 3: there were others who argued it's literally not up to
Speaker 3: Kim to shield her children from weirdos. It's up to
Speaker 3: the general public to not be weird. Look, there are
Speaker 3: a lot of places to go with this story, but
Speaker 3: I'll tell you why these pictures captured my attention. Yesterday,
Speaker 3: I was a young teen with boobs that I did
Speaker 3: not want. I didn't know how to dress. I knew
Speaker 3: that me wearing a white singlet wasn't read the same
Speaker 3: as the girl next to me wearing a white singlet,
Speaker 3: or the way.
Speaker 2: That it was read last year. When you're wearing a.
Speaker 4: White singlet exactly.
Speaker 3: And I can see now in hindsight how much my
Speaker 3: mum must have struggled to not say anything. And I
Speaker 3: remember fighting with her to buy a stunning brown singlet.
Speaker 3: It was a crop top with white riding across the
Speaker 3: chest that said naughty gal was from soup Prey. And
Speaker 3: I suppose my question here is what is the role
Speaker 3: of parents? And let's be real, it is always considered
Speaker 3: the domain of mothers to police their daughter's bodies.
Speaker 4: Holly, I'm going.
Speaker 2: To try really hard not to get all high pitched
Speaker 2: and screechy about this, because it is an absolute puffer
Speaker 2: fish for me. I have had so many arguments about
Speaker 2: this in general with people in my life. I wrote
Speaker 2: a frickin' book about it. Largely, there is nothing that
Speaker 2: irritates me more than people screaming stop sexualizing young girl
Speaker 2: while they are sexualizing the young girls themselves by deciding
Speaker 2: that once their body has changed, it is no longer
Speaker 2: appropriate for them to wear certain things. Right. It is
Speaker 2: so confusing for young kids, as you have already expressed, Jesse,
Speaker 2: that there's this weird liminal time where you know, last
Speaker 2: summer it was fine for you to run around in
Speaker 2: a bikini and no one was bothered. And this summer
Speaker 2: everybody's like, oh, could you cover up? And you can
Speaker 2: read it like kids are not stupid, They're incredibly sensitive
Speaker 2: to shame in particular, and they can pick it up
Speaker 2: all around them that suddenly something that has happened to
Speaker 2: them that has nothing to do with them. It wasn't
Speaker 2: in their control, it wasn't their choice has changed everything,
Speaker 2: and suddenly their body in clothes, in a bikini, in jeans,
Speaker 2: in a crop top in of course, it is a
Speaker 2: dangerous thing that needs to now be treated very differently,
Speaker 2: And I just find it so infuriating that women in
Speaker 2: particular buy into this and pile onto moments like this Northwest. Obviously,
Speaker 2: she's not an ordinary twelve year old. Of course she's not.
Speaker 2: But I've lived through this, right, and I have a
Speaker 2: fifteen year old daughter, and I'm around a lot of
Speaker 2: girls of those ages. Walk into a Brandy Melville, walk
Speaker 2: into a soup prey, walk into any shop, and you
Speaker 2: will see young girls who are ordinary in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, their background whatever, who want to dress this
Speaker 2: way corsets, crop tops, tight little shirts with big, baggy
Speaker 2: jeans or little raw raskirts are what a lot of
Speaker 2: girls this age want to wear. The only difference with
Speaker 2: what Northwest is doing is that hers have designer labels
Speaker 2: on them, and hers get photographed by the entire world
Speaker 2: and sent around for everybody to pick up and judge.
Speaker 5: That is not the only difference between.
Speaker 2: Them in this instance.
Speaker 1: It is is Kim Kardashian. We cannot discuss this in isolation.
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian. Now, I'm not making any kind of comment
Speaker 1: on her as a mother. She's going through a lot
Speaker 1: with a very very difficult ex husband who is also
Speaker 1: dealing with mental health challenges. So I'm setting that aside
Speaker 1: and saying that Kim Ashing from a very early age,
Speaker 1: was sexualized by her own mother, and you're acting like
Speaker 1: that's not common.
Speaker 2: Because I don't believe in it. Because I really don't
Speaker 2: believe that Northwest is being sexualized. That is my thing
Speaker 2: is that I think that it's And I don't want
Speaker 2: to get personal, either about myself or anybody else in this,
Speaker 2: but it's very easy in all areas of parenting before
Speaker 2: you've got there to go like I would never I
Speaker 2: have never let my daughter.
Speaker 1: My favorite pastime is talking about parenting stages I'm yet
Speaker 1: to reach, and the various rules that I will impose
Speaker 1: at that stage, Just like when I was pregnant, I
Speaker 1: said I would never use screens screen.
Speaker 2: Have you met a tween? Have you met a particularly
Speaker 2: precocious tween? Have you tried to make them do things
Speaker 2: they don't want to do? Things they don't want to?
Speaker 1: Say that what I'm doing is parent shaming. I'm saying
Speaker 1: that there is context here that her mother's rise to
Speaker 1: fame came from. And I'm not going to sugarcoat this
Speaker 1: a sex tape that some people believe that is credibly
Speaker 1: believed her mother had a hand in release.
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of an empire built on sexualization, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Is that your point?
Speaker 6: I think so.
Speaker 2: You genuinely think that the reason Northwest is wearing that course,
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with what twelve year old
Speaker 2: girls are wearing in the suburbs of Sydney. Everything to
Speaker 2: do with.
Speaker 1: This podcast about the fact that two things can be true.
Speaker 2: I reject it. I thoroughly reject.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I reckon that there are two things going
Speaker 3: on right because, on the one hand, I think we
Speaker 3: are in a moment of cultural reckoning of giving children
Speaker 3: any sort of public platform, and North challenges that. For
Speaker 3: a lot of people, North, as a twelve year old,
Speaker 3: is all over TikTok. North has been put on a
Speaker 3: song by her father, who in March, by the way,
Speaker 3: came out and basically went, I'm so uncomfortable that my
Speaker 3: daughters are wearing perfume and the clothes that they're wearing,
Speaker 3: and they're wearing lipstick and blah blah blah. My puffer
Speaker 3: fish is men who are not involved in parenting sitting
Speaker 3: on the sidelines criticizing the mother.
Speaker 4: That's my puffer fish.
Speaker 3: But my point about that is that I think that
Speaker 3: there is a growing discomfort about having young kids in
Speaker 3: the spotlight. And Kanye just recently put Northwest on a
Speaker 3: song with convicted sex felon PDDY exactly right. So there's
Speaker 3: a big discussion that I think it's probably playing into
Speaker 3: that a little bit, which is who is protecting Northwest?
Speaker 2: But this is the thing is, I don't think that
Speaker 2: is what anyone in the comments section is worried about,
Speaker 2: because I think that what you think of Kim and
Speaker 2: Kanye's parenting choices is one thing, right, And I entirely
Speaker 2: agree with you about whether or not it's in any
Speaker 2: way healthy for a twelve year old to have the
Speaker 2: kind of plantchion platform that Northwest does. We are talking
Speaker 2: specifically here about clothes, and the reason that it is
Speaker 2: a pufferfish and a trigger is because that is something
Speaker 2: we all relate to. Is I know you're not there yet,
Speaker 2: but this is something that will suddenly happen where your daughter,
Speaker 2: as I say, is wearing something that was fine for
Speaker 2: her to six months ago, but suddenly they're like, how
Speaker 2: could you let your daughter wear that? Okay, and so
Speaker 2: what's the conversation you're going to hide?
Speaker 1: I have an example. I don't want to make this
Speaker 1: about our parenting choices, so I'm going to try and
Speaker 1: step back and talk in more general terms about how
Speaker 1: I felt recently when I saw a picture that made
Speaker 1: me uncomfortable. I love the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, and I
Speaker 1: love the Netflix documentary about them, which just finished its
Speaker 1: second season. Highly recommend if you have not watched it,
Speaker 1: because I'm now a super fan. I follow everything they do.
Speaker 1: They had a summer camp and they invited six year
Speaker 1: olds to come along and learn how to cheerlead with them,
Speaker 1: which is great because it is an athletic endeavor that
Speaker 1: involves a lot of artistry. And I applaud that there
Speaker 1: were six year olds on the field wearing modified Dallas
Speaker 1: Cowboys cheerleaders outfits. And they were modified in the sense
Speaker 1: that the chierleaders were very I think it's safe to
Speaker 1: say skimpy outfits. They have little extreme crop tops with
Speaker 1: a bow over the cleavage, and these six year olds
Speaker 1: were wearing T shirts printed with that bow and the
Speaker 1: little bedazzled jacket that they wear on top of it.
Speaker 1: And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't made
Speaker 1: uncomfortable by that. Now, does that mean that I am
Speaker 1: sexualizing the six year olds? Maybe? Maybe it's my problem,
Speaker 1: but I felt uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: I think there is a world of difference between a commercialized,
Speaker 2: systematic kind of this is what the young girls who
Speaker 2: dance have to look like. It's one of the reasons
Speaker 2: why I genuinely was uncomfortable about my daughter and never
Speaker 2: doing dancing is because there's no choice there. It's like
Speaker 2: from six Lipstick Hair Foundation.
Speaker 1: You just described it as a commercialized, systematic operation that is.
Speaker 2: The Kardashian no. But what they have always buughted the boundaries,
Speaker 2: because I agree with you about that those pictures of
Speaker 2: Dallas cowboy cheerleader's made me really uncomfortable, right, But my
Speaker 2: argument about why Northwest is being shamed for wearing a
Speaker 2: corset is to me a completely separated well.
Speaker 3: The irony of the corset, and in fact the irony
Speaker 3: of the six year olds with the cheerleading as well,
Speaker 3: is that they're just imitating what the older women in
Speaker 3: their lives are doing. So if you look at the
Speaker 3: picture of Kim and north not is just dress like Kim,
Speaker 3: And it's like, how do you explain to a twelve
Speaker 3: year old that their body is more sexualized than the
Speaker 3: body of an adult woman, that you will never be
Speaker 3: as sexualized as the moment you have curves.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring to you both something that
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about a lot lately about clothing. I
Speaker 1: love buying second hand clothes, and I especially love calling
Speaker 1: them vintage because it makes it some more fancy. In fact,
Speaker 1: I'm wearing a great top I got at Finney's today,
Speaker 1: and you told me that you got yours.
Speaker 3: At I think it was deep hop or it could
Speaker 3: have been like a Red Cross store.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering why you look like Sienna Miller.
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 1: But the one thing that really trips me up in
Speaker 1: buying secondhand and even an extending the life span of
Speaker 1: my existing clothes is stains. Because you get a stain
Speaker 1: and then you think I don't really want to wear
Speaker 1: that anymore, You get self conscious, you think I've got
Speaker 1: to take it to the dry cleaner. It goes in
Speaker 1: a pile of clothes for the dry cleaner, which of
Speaker 1: course never actually leaves your sofa or the chair in
Speaker 1: your bedroom that you have designated for the dry cleaner.
Speaker 1: So there's this real stigma around clothing stage. I think
Speaker 1: that's safe to say. And there's a substacker called Isabelle
Speaker 1: Slow who wrote recently that we all just need to
Speaker 1: get over the stain problem.
Speaker 3: Couldn't agree there.
Speaker 1: She wrote a piece called on Loving My Clothes with
Speaker 1: stains and Holes, and she talks about trying to actively
Speaker 1: shift her mindset when it comes to imperfections in her clothing.
Speaker 1: She says, a stain can end the life cycle of
Speaker 1: a clothing item just too early, like you might still
Speaker 1: love it. I think about the fact that I used
Speaker 1: to love wearing silk shirts to work, and then I
Speaker 1: realized that they all had awful yellow stains underneath them,
Speaker 1: and then I just never wore them again.
Speaker 3: I struggle with silk and sweating. I find that my
Speaker 3: sweat I'm like, is my sweat different? Because I feel
Speaker 3: like I ruin every the issues. I don't know how
Speaker 3: to wash silk, which is a whole other thing no
Speaker 3: one does.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned gently agitate, but who is very complex?
Speaker 1: And think about all those little silk worms who work
Speaker 1: so hard for these things, and then we're just discarding them.
Speaker 1: So here's a proposal. What if we decide that stain's
Speaker 1: a character, that they're kind of cool, and look, we
Speaker 1: do this with other items. Think about the Burken bag,
Speaker 1: the famous Umez Birken bag. They retail for tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. It's named after this French style icon
Speaker 1: named Jane Burkin. And the whole point of how she
Speaker 1: used her bags is that she scuffed them, She wore
Speaker 1: them to the ground, she puts stickers on them, she
Speaker 1: stuffed bagets in them. And Kate Moss, who's another style icon,
Speaker 1: was just recently seen on the beach with her burken
Speaker 1: She took an eighteen thousand dollars bag to the beach
Speaker 1: and put her beach towel in it.
Speaker 2: So that's a status symbol though, right though, that's kind
Speaker 2: of like saying, I know this bag is really expensive,
Speaker 2: but to me, it's just like the green bag, you
Speaker 2: know from the supermarket.
Speaker 1: All you could say it's very sustainable of them. So
Speaker 1: I want to say, let's stop being precious about the stains.
Speaker 1: Let's stop do we judge people who have stains. No,
Speaker 1: so let's accept that we can just wear the stains
Speaker 1: and they're a sign of character and they're a sign
Speaker 1: of age.
Speaker 3: I think antique furniture like that has little stains on it,
Speaker 3: and that's absolutely fine. I wear stains all the time
Speaker 3: because my theory is no one's looking at you, no
Speaker 3: one notices the things that you notice. They don't. And interestingly,
Speaker 3: I went really deep on what you can and can't
Speaker 3: donate recently. You can't donate a piece of clothing with
Speaker 3: a stain on it, which is why so much of
Speaker 3: it ends up in landfill and really good quality stuff,
Speaker 3: which again they think is related to people don't know
Speaker 3: how to wash their clothes anymore, like the skills of
Speaker 3: our grandmothers, who could get a stain out of anything,
Speaker 3: which you know was always baking, so like Vegga, I
Speaker 3: don't know, they would do something and get the stain out.
Speaker 2: A lot of influencers who are obsessed with that stuff.
Speaker 3: I think we need to go back to like learning
Speaker 3: how to wash our clothes, but also rock the stain.
Speaker 3: Mayor Friedman would say, put a brooch over it.
Speaker 2: I want to know how many years is acceptable to
Speaker 2: have a piece of clothing or something like that. I
Speaker 2: put a thing in the Outlouders Facebook group on the
Speaker 2: weekend about towels on a similar vein right. I wrote
Speaker 2: that because I wanted some tips and I knew the
Speaker 2: outluders would help me out about where to buy a
Speaker 2: job lot of new towels, because I suddenly looked at
Speaker 2: the towels in my bathroom and realized that they were
Speaker 2: all quite rady, and that some of them, quite a
Speaker 2: lot of them were older than my children. And that's
Speaker 2: all right, well this is the thing. But they were tatty, okay,
Speaker 2: and some of them, you know, they the thing anyway,
Speaker 2: So the Outlouders were full of really great ideas. They
Speaker 2: were like, go and buy them from game. Aren't they
Speaker 2: really good? And fluffy blah blah blah blah. But several
Speaker 2: of them said, let's normalize having tails older than our children.
Speaker 3: And I feel the same about tea taels. I have
Speaker 3: had tea tails for a very long time with holes
Speaker 3: in them and burns on them, and I'm like it
Speaker 3: just it shows all the years I've been slogging away cooking,
Speaker 3: which is not what's happened.
Speaker 4: That's character.
Speaker 2: I love it. And coffee steams. That is all we
Speaker 2: have time for today. Out Loud is what a big day.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to our show, and
Speaker 2: thank you to our wonderful team for putting it together.
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: And out Loud as we may have teased it, but
Speaker 3: tomorrow we are going to drop a very special subscriber
Speaker 3: episode all about Taylor's engagement. There was so much more
Speaker 3: that we wanted to say. Maya is our very special guest.
Speaker 3: She's wearing ridiculous out hit and if you're not a
Speaker 3: swifty feeling a bit left out, then may I suggest
Speaker 3: you go back. You listen to yesterday's subscriber episode where
Speaker 3: I made an apology because it turns out that I'm
Speaker 3: wrong all the time, and I said something on this
Speaker 3: show that I swiftly regretted thanks to an out louder
Speaker 3: who called me out. She's now come back and said,
Speaker 3: thank you Jesse for your lovely apology, and I she's
Speaker 3: my new best friend.
Speaker 5: We're always learning.
Speaker 3: We are always learning. A link to that is in
Speaker 3: our show notes.
Speaker 4: Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.