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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: MoMA Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the twenty seventh of August.

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Speaker 3: It's a hard day to put the show together, isn't it, Hallywayen.

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Speaker 2: Right, it really is. I am Holly Wayne Right.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester and friends.

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Speaker 2: Today little girls everywhere got a reminder on blast that

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Speaker 2: no matter what greatness you achieve in your life, nothing

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Speaker 2: will be more celebrated than the moment a man choose.

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Speaker 2: Oh Holly, come on, is that notthing? Sorry, let me buffer,

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Speaker 2: let me try that again, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Squire.

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelc a engaged twenty five exclamation marks.

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Speaker 3: Woot.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we've been up since dawn curating all the

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Speaker 2: hot takes for you. If only Infamous Swifty Mia Friedman

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Speaker 2: was here for this historic man I'd.

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Speaker 1: See only we unpacked the shocking news from Canberra about

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Speaker 1: state sanctioned terrorism in Australia.

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Speaker 3: And Northwest went out for a lovely dinner with her

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Speaker 3: mother Kim Kardashian in Rome.

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Speaker 4: But all anyone can talk.

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Speaker 3: About is what North chose to wear and how it's

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Speaker 3: all Kim's fault.

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Speaker 2: But first, people, Taylor Swift is getting married. It's a

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Speaker 2: love story. And she said, yes, Etta, I thought we've

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Speaker 2: got rid of you.

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Speaker 3: That might be Taylor's sweating dress.

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Speaker 4: What you're wearing.

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Speaker 5: Because this to her concert. And I actually thought that

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Speaker 5: this was like an NFL jersey. Apparently it's baseball.

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Speaker 4: I think it's ice hockey. Yeah, some kind of hockey

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Speaker 4: is thing.

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Speaker 2: Ladies and the very few gentlemen want me. Hello, she

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Speaker 2: was gonna sit this in. You didn't even know.

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Speaker 6: Happy Taylor Engagement Day for those who celebrate you and

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Speaker 6: me pretty.

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Speaker 2: Much how she feel, not really me? This morning at

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Speaker 2: three a high school. This morning, at three am Eastern

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Speaker 2: Standard time, an Instagram post appeared on the accounts of

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Speaker 2: both Taylor Swift and someone called Killer Trav. The imagery

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Speaker 2: is peak flower arch and amid the blooms stands Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift with American Football's titust end Travis Kelcey kneeling before

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Speaker 2: her as he should, with four other gorgeously smiling kissy

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Speaker 2: pictures to follow. And the caption that simply reads, your

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Speaker 2: English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married Stick

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Speaker 2: of dynamite and the world imploded.

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Speaker 4: Go Maya, how do you feel today?

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Speaker 1: I feel good. I knew.

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Speaker 5: I'm not surprised. I knew this was happening.

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Speaker 6: I think it is a good thing. I always thought

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Speaker 6: they were endgame. Really yeah, yeah, I think they are

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Speaker 6: so perfectly suited. And if there was ever any doubt

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Speaker 6: I think it was very much locked and loaded when

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Speaker 6: they rolled out formally rolled out there. I don't want

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Speaker 6: to say brand because that sounds cynical. They rolled out

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Speaker 6: themselves as a couple on the podcast a couple of

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Speaker 6: weeks ago, on the Kelsey Brothers podcast, and I looked

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Speaker 6: at it and I just thought, oh, they are so perfect.

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Speaker 3: And what did you think of the actual announcement? She

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Speaker 3: appears to be in a forest. I mean it is

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Speaker 3: in August, which is allegedly a song that hard.

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Speaker 2: Does anyone know what the stick of dynamite?

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Speaker 4: I know what it means? Oh good, TNT Travis.

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Speaker 3: And Taylor, Yeah yeah, yeah, Travis and Taylor give us

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Speaker 3: an analysis of that.

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Speaker 4: They're in the flowers.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so the thing to understand I have a friend

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Speaker 6: who is a swiftie who has never liked Travis for

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Speaker 6: Taylor and has always thought that he was too basic,

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Speaker 6: too much of a buffhead. The thing about Travis and

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Speaker 6: the reason that I think he's so perfect for her

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Speaker 6: on so many levels, the most important thing is how

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Speaker 6: much they've got in common. I mean, as he said

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Speaker 6: on the podcast, they're both stadium entertainers. Now, who else

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Speaker 6: in the world can really understand what that's like. A

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Speaker 6: few people, not many people we've played.

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Speaker 2: I think we can call it of those places state.

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Speaker 6: So they're both incredibly successful and competitive in their own fields.

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Speaker 6: They're not in the same field, which is interesting, and

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Speaker 6: she's obviously on a whole other level. But family is

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Speaker 6: incredibly important to both of them.

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Speaker 5: And they're both daggy.

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Speaker 6: And I say that with the greatest respect and affection,

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Speaker 6: because Taylor has always been a bit cringe and cheese

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Speaker 6: and she's owned that like that's part of her charm.

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Speaker 1: I always remember, after what we believed to be their

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Speaker 1: first date, or the first public date, because their first

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Speaker 1: date may have been before that, when she went to

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Speaker 1: see him play football. He took her for a ride

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Speaker 1: afterwards in his convertible. Do you remember this detail? And

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Speaker 1: on the roof of the convertible it has the stars

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Speaker 1: because he wanted a reminder to always reach for them. Now,

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Speaker 1: if that's Taylor coded, I don't know.

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Speaker 6: They're both very earnest in their way, but also very goofy,

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Speaker 6: Like she's always really embraced the daggy dancing.

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Speaker 5: She's not she's not Beyonce, she's not incredibly slip.

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Speaker 2: She's very relatable and so is he today as everybody's

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Speaker 2: losing their minds. There's lots of narrative that you know,

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Speaker 2: I have a problem with, but we'll get to that later.

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Speaker 2: That Like, we've seen her through all these relationships that

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Speaker 2: weren't right and this is the right one. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that the tortured poets, all that stuff, all those

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Speaker 2: bad boys she was dating, all the ones who wanted

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Speaker 2: to go under the radar, or do you think she

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Speaker 2: was pretending or do you think she's evolved into this

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Speaker 2: version of herself. Like I don't mean pretending for the audience,

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Speaker 2: I mean you know how sometimes you bury bits of

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Speaker 2: yourself in relationships. So what you're saying is they're perfect

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Speaker 2: for each other because they meet each other in ambition

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Speaker 2: and she yeah, and like all American dagginess. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that's who she's always been? But she was trying

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Speaker 2: to convince herself, Oh no, I'm like, I'm more Maddy. Heally,

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Speaker 2: I'm more.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting.

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Speaker 6: I think that we all visit different versions of ourselves

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Speaker 6: depending on I don't know if guys do this, but

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Speaker 6: I know I did it depending on who I've dated.

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Speaker 6: And I think that the most important thing about Travis

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Speaker 6: is that for the first time since I've she hasn't

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Speaker 6: had to dim her light because she hasn't had to

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Speaker 6: worry about emasculating a man. And I completely understand, you know,

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Speaker 6: Joe awhen which was a really formative relationship for her,

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Speaker 6: And certainly thank you Joe for some amazing music, even

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Speaker 6: to Jake Gillenhole, Harry Styles, all of those we got

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Speaker 6: John Maye, We've got some great music Travis, because she's happy,

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Speaker 6: you know, he's so high School's probably not Taylor's best

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Speaker 6: but as someone who thinks she's an amazing artist, but

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Speaker 6: she's also just a person, She's also just a woman who's.

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Speaker 3: What's around my age. There are some concerns in the

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Speaker 3: office by single girls that they're going, I don't want

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Speaker 3: an album about a joint mortgage. I don't want an

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Speaker 3: album about yeah, you know, little petty fights. Like hasn't

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Speaker 3: her best music been during those tumultuous years. But I

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Speaker 3: think that two thousand and eight Love Story came out,

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Speaker 3: which was for the basic among us, that was kind

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Speaker 3: of when Taylor Swift burst onto the scene. That was

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Speaker 3: the year that I graduated high school. It was everywhere.

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Speaker 3: It was Romeo and Juliet, and it's her coming out

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Speaker 3: just basically professing her position as a hopeless romantic, which

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Speaker 3: kind of wasn't the vibe then. And she was a

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Speaker 3: very earnest millennial figure, right, And so to watch her now,

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Speaker 3: seventeen years later, having finally it feels like there's this

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Speaker 3: arc or this plot that's very I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: feel like we have been rooting for her and she

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Speaker 3: had these really low moments with the awful Jake Jillenhole.

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Speaker 2: You're upsetting me, Jesse.

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Speaker 1: What I think you're saying here, which is something that

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Speaker 1: I've been feeling today. For millennials, this is the end

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Speaker 1: of an arc. It's the end of an era. And

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Speaker 1: I know that Holly will tell us that the happy

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Speaker 1: ending is the whole rest of your life, and that

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Speaker 1: that's the work in progress. But for millennials in particular,

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Speaker 1: it does feel like this is the moment that we

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Speaker 1: see the culmination of our youth.

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Speaker 3: And we all know the feeling of watching a friend

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Speaker 3: who has dated total duds and has had really difficult

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Speaker 3: moments finding their person.

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Speaker 4: And I will lie you upset. I just think that's

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Speaker 4: a lovely thing.

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Speaker 5: Why are you reigning on.

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Speaker 2: Taylor's pat I don't want to rain on her parade.

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Speaker 2: I'm very happy for her, But I want to say

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Speaker 2: to all the single girls crying in their lattes this morning,

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Speaker 2: and there are some, there are some in this office

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Speaker 2: who are like, fuck another fucking happy couple, Like here

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Speaker 2: we go. This isn't the ending of anything. Weddings and

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Speaker 2: engagements are not the endings of anything. There's no happy ending.

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Speaker 2: Almost done, now, well done, dusting her hands. Ask anyone

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Speaker 2: who's been married for more than five minutes if the

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Speaker 2: wedding and the marriage is the end. There is a

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Speaker 2: lot to go. Taylor's got a lot of life left

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Speaker 2: to live. We all know people whose marriages didn't work out,

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Speaker 2: So let's not get too caught up in the happy

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Speaker 2: ending of it.

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Speaker 5: That's romantic.

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Speaker 6: She's not up here for me, not someone who's ever

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Speaker 6: been like I need a man to complete me.

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Speaker 1: Like.

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Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything wrong.

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Speaker 2: Isn't every single one of her songs about that?

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Speaker 6: No? I think that looking for great love is not

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Speaker 6: retro or something to be embarrassed about or ashamed about.

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Speaker 5: But it doesn't have to define you, Like she's been

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Speaker 5: very clear that, Yeah, she's pretty complete.

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Speaker 6: Her own, and she's got goals to kick, and she's

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Speaker 6: kicked all all of the ones that you can think of,

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Speaker 6: and she continues to kick more.

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Speaker 3: And what she always wanted, like even from that two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight thing, which which I don't relate with

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Speaker 3: but I respect, is a loud love. She wanted someone

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Speaker 3: who professed their love for her and this, yeah, Travis

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Speaker 3: is loud live.

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Speaker 1: But me, I do have to say that her greatest

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Speaker 1: music has been about looking for love. Are you worried

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Speaker 1: that her music now is going to suffer with happiness?

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Speaker 6: No, because what we saw with Folklore and Evermore and

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Speaker 6: she said she's going to do this again. Not with

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Speaker 6: Life of a Show God, because that's about behind the

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Speaker 6: scenes of when she was doing the ears tool, but

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Speaker 6: she said with those two albums she really enjoyed writing

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Speaker 6: songs from the perspective of characters, and that was the

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Speaker 6: first time she'd done that because you know, before that

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Speaker 6: she'd always mind her life and often her love life.

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Speaker 6: But some of her greatest songs are about being betrayed

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Speaker 6: in business, you know as well and being betrayed. You know.

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Speaker 6: The whole Reputation album was extraordinary, and that wasn't about love.

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Speaker 6: That was about being canceled.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask you Mia as a resident you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously swifty but also pr expert.

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Speaker 5: Oh tree Pain, Big day for tree Pain.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that marks this relationship very much,

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Speaker 2: as we've already touched on, is how public it is.

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Speaker 2: It's very public, this relationship and this engagement announcement is

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Speaker 2: very public. The way that it was said it was

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Speaker 2: for the fans, like the English teacher and the gym teacher.

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Speaker 2: It's gorgeous, but it's for the fans. Right, what's the

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Speaker 2: wedding going to be? Like, I am obsessed now about it.

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Speaker 2: This is a royal wedding. This is America's royal wedding,

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Speaker 2: and I am now obsessed that maybe they should lean

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Speaker 2: into that and down the streets of Kansas City. We

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Speaker 2: should have an open topped rainbow carriage pulled by unicorns,

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Speaker 2: and all the girls and the gays can be out

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Speaker 2: applauding it. That would be brilliant. Donald Trump has made

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Speaker 2: a stake.

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Speaker 3: A lot of fans are saying, I'll buy tickets. They

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Speaker 3: went to the Eras tour. This is their Eras tour.

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Speaker 3: They'll watch well they get married at the Super Bowl.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible to have a private wedding if you're

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Speaker 2: the most famous woman in the world.

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Speaker 6: I think so, because when Taylor Swift wants to disappear,

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Speaker 6: she disappears, knows how to disappear.

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Speaker 5: She's disappeared for years at a time.

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Speaker 6: So I think that sharing this with the world is

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Speaker 6: lovely and it's in large part of service to her fans,

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Speaker 6: who were very, very invested. But she has always done

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Speaker 6: things on her terms. I don't think we should be

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Speaker 6: worried about her.

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Speaker 5: I must say.

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Speaker 6: Part of me was like, oh, we should have kept

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Speaker 6: this private, But then I'm like why, like for the

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Speaker 6: first time she's with someone who's not emasculated, or like, oh,

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Speaker 6: we mustn't be seen together on a red carpet. We

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Speaker 6: mustn't be seen in public, Like for six or seven

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Speaker 6: years with Joe Alvin, she had to hide, she had

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Speaker 6: to like sneak in and out.

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Speaker 5: Of cars, and like, how would that make you feel?

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Speaker 3: There's a theory which I think you'll really like that

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Speaker 3: the announcement was a homage to tree pain because she

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Speaker 3: was surrounded by train trees.

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Speaker 1: See.

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Speaker 5: I loved that.

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Speaker 6: I think about your proposal, Jesse, because I had a

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Speaker 6: friend who's like, he was wearing shorts and loafers with

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Speaker 6: new socks and ooh and yuck, And.

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Speaker 2: I was like, is that about that?

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Speaker 6: You know what your betrothed was wearing when he proposed

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Speaker 6: to you, what you were wearing. None of that matters,

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Speaker 6: None of it matters.

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Speaker 5: And there was something.

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Speaker 6: Really daggy about it in the most over the top way,

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Speaker 6: of course, which I absolutely loved, which made it feel

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Speaker 6: very real to me.

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Speaker 2: They're a world in which, you know how you said,

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Speaker 2: Taylor does everything on her terms, and we all know

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Speaker 2: that she loves to trick us, Queen of the missed direction.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that they're already married?

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Speaker 6: No, but I do think this happened a couple of

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Speaker 6: weeks ago like, I think that there's been time. I

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Speaker 6: don't think it happened yesterday.

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Speaker 3: And there were hints over the weekend, quotes from Travis

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Speaker 3: Kelsey's parents that suggested they knew.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, absolutely, I think you know, just like with

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Speaker 6: your proposal, there were people around them that were clued in,

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Speaker 6: and I'm sure Tree knew.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Theory among just the Out Loud team is that Travis

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Speaker 3: Kelcey did ask Tree pain one hundred percent Taylor's.

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Speaker 6: For Scott, her father, he would have had to go

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Speaker 6: and ask Tree and fair enough.

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Speaker 3: One more tidbit I need to share, please, Blake Lively

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Speaker 3: has not at the time of recording lying to the post.

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Speaker 2: I'm very upset about that.

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Speaker 4: And what does that tell us?

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Speaker 3: No, I just think she's not going to be made

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Speaker 3: of honor.

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Speaker 5: I think it's messy.

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Speaker 6: I think that we all have friendships that we've left

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Speaker 6: behind for various reasons, usually not as high profile as

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Speaker 6: lawsuits and things like that, but we all do. And

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Speaker 6: it's kind of a bittersweet when someone that you were

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Speaker 6: super close to has this life milestone, whether it's a

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Speaker 6: happy one like this or a sad one like losing

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Speaker 6: a parent, you sort of feel like you should reach out.

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Speaker 6: Just because she didn't like it on Instagram does not

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Speaker 6: mean she didn't necessarily text. But I think probably her

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Speaker 6: number is blocked. I think Tree would have seen to that.

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Speaker 5: Guys, there's so much to talk about.

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Speaker 6: There's the ring, There's whether or not she was surprised,

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Speaker 6: There's a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of There was the nearly twelve months ago to the day,

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Speaker 3: there was a leaked breakup plan, which was a big

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Speaker 3: topic of discussion, and I just want to go back

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Speaker 3: to that, revisit what we said.

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Speaker 5: And there are a lot of clues.

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Speaker 6: I've been diving deeper. We shocked to hear about a

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Speaker 6: lot of clues. The Swifties have done their work, and

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Speaker 6: there are a lot of clues in the announcement, in

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Speaker 6: the photo. There's a lot still to talk about. So

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Speaker 6: I'm sure you've probably got other topics to talk about.

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Speaker 6: I don't know what they are, sure they'll be great.

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Speaker 6: I don't really want to talk about anything else today, Okay,

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Speaker 6: So I think I'll excuse myself and go do some

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Speaker 6: more research and maybe see you in a subs episode.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I that would be amazing.

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Speaker 1: Sounds good.

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Speaker 3: I have one more thing to say about the announcement

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Speaker 3: Kill a Trav.

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Speaker 4: So the first thing I thought I won't.

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Speaker 3: I checked Instagram because that's how it goes, and I

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Speaker 3: saw kill a Trav and I went home follow Killer Trav.

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Speaker 3: Who the hell is that she can't marry kill a Trap?

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Speaker 3: He has to change his Instagram handle and then maybe

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Speaker 3: she will follow him, because she still doesn't follow him

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Speaker 3: on Instagram.

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Speaker 4: Change it to Travis Kelsey.

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Speaker 3: It just screams he made it when he was twelve,

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Speaker 3: didn't realize he'd become so famoure. Now he's marrying Taylor

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Speaker 3: Swift and he is Killer Trav on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: I'm horrified over to a different kind of Royalty. I

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Speaker 2: have generously been given one whole minute. This is very

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Speaker 2: troubling for me to bring you up to speed on

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Speaker 2: what's been happening in princess business this week. Okay, which,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, since this week one of my tailors,

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Speaker 2: Megan Markle, launched an show and did a whole, big,

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Speaker 2: long form interview. This is very cruel, but I understand

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Speaker 2: we've been usurped by the way at Royalty. So here's

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Speaker 2: my quick rundown of what's been happening in Princess business

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Speaker 2: this week? Season two as ever, Sorry with love, Megan,

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Speaker 2: Why isn't it called the same thing? It's bad for?

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Speaker 2: Brand has dropped? And what's weird about it? Considering that

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Speaker 2: season one we had to sit through lots of people

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Speaker 2: we've never met before making candles, is that this season

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Speaker 2: it's got cred right. Episode one has got David Chang

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Speaker 2: on it. Now, you might not know who he is

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Speaker 2: Jesse because you don't like food, but here is a

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Speaker 2: big deal. He's the momo fuku guy. He is a

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Speaker 2: big deal.

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Is he the one who makes a lobster? I've seen

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Speaker 3: a clip no no no.

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Speaker 2: Episode two has Chrissy Tagan and episode eight with the lobster,

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Speaker 2: that's jose Andres. He is massively famous and he's the

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Speaker 2: founder of World Central Kitchen. Like he is a massive deal.

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Speaker 2: So why did she keep all the good people for

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Speaker 2: the second season? I am very confused about that. Same day,

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Speaker 2: Meg sits down for a long form interview with Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: Emily Chang in a bookstore. Presumably this is where she

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Speaker 2: chose to be interviewed in a bookstore. You like books,

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Speaker 2: says Emily Chang, looking around. What are you reading right now?

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Speaker 2: Reading says Megan. Oh, I read to my kids. I

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Speaker 2: read self help, but mostly Emily. She says this, and

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Speaker 2: then my late.

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Speaker 5: Night indulgence now is just a lot of duolingo?

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Speaker 2: Do you ever do know?

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Speaker 5: That's great when I could find the time. What are

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Speaker 5: you do olingoing? I'm dual lingering French.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I committed to relearning it.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, me too, megs me too. As you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm naturally we are basically the same person. Meanwhile, over

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Speaker 2: in that place that Megan's not allowed to go to anymore,

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Speaker 2: Princess Catherine got the world momentarily obsessed with the fact

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Speaker 2: that she had dyed her hair blonde. Now, I can't

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Speaker 2: really explain to you how I know, deep in my

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Speaker 2: soul she did not dye her hair blonde. Princess Catherine

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Speaker 2: is no more allowed to dye her hair blonde than

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Speaker 2: she is to pick her undie's out of her But.

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Speaker 3: I saw those pictures of her in the limousine or something,

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Speaker 3: and they think that it's blonde.

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00:17:13,942 --> 00:17:15,622
Speaker 4: Is it just light the lighting?

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Speaker 2: It's a pat picture right through a car window that

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00:17:18,661 --> 00:17:22,502
Speaker 2: looks like she's gone proper blonde blonde. But a strategic

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00:17:22,621 --> 00:17:26,502
Speaker 2: leak has already been placed with the Daily Mail that says,

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Speaker 2: this is just yacht tad. She has spent the summer

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Speaker 2: in Greece and she's slowly been lightning her brown from

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Speaker 2: chestnut to more caramelli and there's just a bit of

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Speaker 2: summer sun on it. And that is worth a thousand headlines?

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Speaker 2: Did I do well on my princess update? I updated

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Speaker 2: very well.

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Speaker 3: You missed the part where I saw that Meghan got

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Speaker 3: gifted by Harry the big portrait.

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Speaker 4: Have you seen this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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00:17:53,702 --> 00:17:55,861
Speaker 3: Yeah, on her Instagram today, a big black and white

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Speaker 3: portrait of her laying in a field with her dog.

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Speaker 4: I think it might be her late dog.

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Speaker 1: One more thing too. You missed something else We learned

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Speaker 1: from the season two of this TV show that for

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00:18:07,982 --> 00:18:13,222
Speaker 1: Harry's fortieth birthday had hats printed that said P forty

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00:18:13,462 --> 00:18:15,821
Speaker 1: for his friends to wear. I just want to emphasize

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00:18:15,821 --> 00:18:18,661
Speaker 1: to you that that means that they ask their friends

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Speaker 1: to call him Prince Harry.

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00:18:20,381 --> 00:18:23,982
Speaker 2: PH Prince Harry. Look, if this was a different day,

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00:18:24,182 --> 00:18:26,662
Speaker 2: if Taylor Swift had not made her announcement, we would

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00:18:26,702 --> 00:18:28,782
Speaker 2: be talking for hours and you would be under sufferance

408
00:18:28,821 --> 00:18:31,262
Speaker 2: at me talking about that all of this Easter eggs

409
00:18:31,262 --> 00:18:33,901
Speaker 2: in the as Ever with Love Megan, So just count

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00:18:33,982 --> 00:18:36,341
Speaker 2: yourself lucky that we're not doing that.

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Speaker 3: Now one's watching that season, Hollywayen right, No One.

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Speaker 1: In a moment. A shocking announcement from the PM about

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Speaker 1: terrorist attacks on Australian soil. So yesterday we had some

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Speaker 1: shocking and pretty surprising news from Canberra. Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 1: Albanezi stood in the courtyard at Parliament House and he

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Speaker 1: pinned last year's anti Semitic attacks that happened in Melbourne

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Speaker 1: and in Sydney on a foreign power, and that foreign

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Speaker 1: power is Iran. The revelation hinges on intelligence from Australia

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Speaker 1: spy agencies. And the way that you know this is

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Speaker 1: a big deal is when the head of AZIO, the

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00:19:11,661 --> 00:19:14,262
Speaker 1: super secret spy agency, actually comes out to talk to

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00:19:14,302 --> 00:19:17,101
Speaker 1: the press, and that happened yesterday. His name is Mike Burgess.

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Speaker 1: He explained that the December attack on a Melbourne synagogue

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Speaker 1: and the October attack on Sydney's Lewis Continental Kitchen were

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Speaker 1: ordered by Iran. So he stressed that Iran themselves, Iranian diplomats,

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Speaker 1: didn't conduct these attacks. They likely engaged a third party

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Speaker 1: criminal organization to do them for them. I also want

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Speaker 1: to mention that Iran denies the allegations. Iran's Foreign minister

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Speaker 1: has said that there are dozens of synagogues in Iran

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Speaker 1: and it made zero sense for Iran to attack these

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Speaker 1: sites in Australia. But I do have to say that

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Speaker 1: these allegations are so extraordinary, so unusual, so out of

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Speaker 1: left field, that Alberesi and the Australian intelligence authorities had

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Speaker 1: to have been absolutely certain in what they said yesterday.

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00:20:01,222 --> 00:20:03,901
Speaker 1: There would be no doubt when they announced this. So

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Speaker 1: let's hear what Alberanzi did have to say.

437
00:20:05,942 --> 00:20:11,462
Speaker 7: These were extraordinary and dangerous ects of a Russian orchestrated

438
00:20:11,942 --> 00:20:16,341
Speaker 7: by a foreign nation on Australian soil. They were attempts

439
00:20:16,341 --> 00:20:21,662
Speaker 7: to undermine social cohesion and so discord in our community.

440
00:20:22,381 --> 00:20:25,542
Speaker 7: It is totally unacceptable and the Australian government is taking

441
00:20:25,621 --> 00:20:28,302
Speaker 7: strong and decisive action in response.

442
00:20:28,861 --> 00:20:32,061
Speaker 1: So in response, what has Albanezi done. He has expelled

443
00:20:32,141 --> 00:20:35,621
Speaker 1: Iran's ambassador to Australia. That hasn't happened since World War II,

444
00:20:36,182 --> 00:20:39,502
Speaker 1: and three other Iranian diplomats were photographed late last night

445
00:20:39,542 --> 00:20:42,542
Speaker 1: in a car fleeing the country. There's so much that

446
00:20:42,621 --> 00:20:44,942
Speaker 1: we still don't know about this story. There's so many

447
00:20:45,022 --> 00:20:48,501
Speaker 1: questions about it. But one unexpected development to come out

448
00:20:48,581 --> 00:20:51,462
Speaker 1: of it is that Iran and Israel, who has sworn enemies,

449
00:20:51,661 --> 00:20:54,101
Speaker 1: now agree on one thing, and that one thing is

450
00:20:54,222 --> 00:20:57,902
Speaker 1: they do not like Australia. Last week, Albanzi was sparring

451
00:20:58,101 --> 00:21:02,262
Speaker 1: with Benjamin Netanyahu, who's Israel's Prime minister and now Iran's

452
00:21:02,262 --> 00:21:05,782
Speaker 1: foreign minister, posted on x overnight that Netanya, who is

453
00:21:05,861 --> 00:21:09,821
Speaker 1: right about one thing, Australia's Prime minister, is indeed a

454
00:21:09,861 --> 00:21:10,782
Speaker 1: weak politician.

455
00:21:11,982 --> 00:21:14,542
Speaker 2: I bet that Albernezi is wishing he could change the subject.

456
00:21:14,742 --> 00:21:19,422
Speaker 2: I have one question why Australia, Like why would Iran

457
00:21:20,141 --> 00:21:22,742
Speaker 2: use Australia as a particular target for this.

458
00:21:23,141 --> 00:21:25,061
Speaker 1: It's such a good question and I don't think we

459
00:21:25,182 --> 00:21:28,262
Speaker 1: know the answer. So Iran has been linked to terra

460
00:21:28,341 --> 00:21:31,661
Speaker 1: plots in other countries in the US and Mark, Belgium, Albania,

461
00:21:31,742 --> 00:21:34,822
Speaker 1: but the last big report on that activity came before

462
00:21:34,901 --> 00:21:37,061
Speaker 1: October seven, and as far as we know, as far

463
00:21:37,101 --> 00:21:39,861
Speaker 1: as I know, there hasn't been a direct specific link

464
00:21:39,942 --> 00:21:42,461
Speaker 1: made of this kind to terrorist activity in the West

465
00:21:42,502 --> 00:21:42,942
Speaker 1: since then.

466
00:21:43,262 --> 00:21:47,061
Speaker 3: Australia has the seventh largest Jewish population in the world,

467
00:21:47,141 --> 00:21:50,302
Speaker 3: so I mean it's significant, but it's it's not the largest, like,

468
00:21:50,302 --> 00:21:53,221
Speaker 3: and that's obviously outside of Israel. But reading all of

469
00:21:53,222 --> 00:21:55,821
Speaker 3: this and reading the details of you know, the text

470
00:21:55,821 --> 00:22:00,861
Speaker 3: messages and stuff they've got from the planning, what's remarkable

471
00:22:00,982 --> 00:22:04,981
Speaker 3: and so lucky is that no one was her Like,

472
00:22:05,061 --> 00:22:07,702
Speaker 3: there was someone hurt. Actually there was someone injured during

473
00:22:07,742 --> 00:22:10,061
Speaker 3: the arts and attack, And of course they're saying that

474
00:22:10,101 --> 00:22:12,941
Speaker 3: they think a few of the other targeted attacks on

475
00:22:13,061 --> 00:22:16,102
Speaker 3: Jewish businesses and stuff, Iran was behind that. But the

476
00:22:16,101 --> 00:22:18,982
Speaker 3: fact that no one was hurt is pretty incredible.

477
00:22:19,182 --> 00:22:22,262
Speaker 2: Just to use real layman's terms, and please correct me,

478
00:22:22,381 --> 00:22:25,222
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, but is that because not I mean,

479
00:22:25,262 --> 00:22:27,742
Speaker 2: not their lack of casualties, But is that because when

480
00:22:27,782 --> 00:22:30,782
Speaker 2: you say they didn't carry out these incidents, but they're

481
00:22:30,821 --> 00:22:35,742
Speaker 2: literally organizing and paying like petty criminals or organized.

482
00:22:35,542 --> 00:22:37,742
Speaker 4: Don't seem to have any really.

483
00:22:37,661 --> 00:22:41,661
Speaker 2: Like no deep affiliation, but to do this for them, Yeah,

484
00:22:41,702 --> 00:22:44,101
Speaker 2: and then how effective they are is kind of beyond

485
00:22:44,222 --> 00:22:49,461
Speaker 2: Iran's control. But what it certainly succeeds in doing is destabilizing.

486
00:22:50,141 --> 00:22:52,821
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, Yeah, the funny thing is too that

487
00:22:52,942 --> 00:22:57,581
Speaker 1: Australia by some measures, has fallen behind other Western nations

488
00:22:57,581 --> 00:23:00,581
Speaker 1: in sanctioning Iran so quick. Bringing you up to speed

489
00:23:00,621 --> 00:23:02,461
Speaker 1: on many many years of irun in history is that

490
00:23:02,502 --> 00:23:06,861
Speaker 1: it has been ruled by this extremist religious regime since

491
00:23:06,942 --> 00:23:11,022
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. Since its revolutions of Western countries have

492
00:23:11,141 --> 00:23:15,462
Speaker 1: taken steps to sanction and to punish that extremist religious regime.

493
00:23:15,141 --> 00:23:16,061
Speaker 4: In various ways.

494
00:23:16,422 --> 00:23:19,142
Speaker 1: Australia has really been behind the rest of the park

495
00:23:19,222 --> 00:23:21,861
Speaker 1: in terms of doing that. So Albinizi just said that

496
00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:25,581
Speaker 1: he's going to sanction the Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corp. They're

497
00:23:25,621 --> 00:23:29,262
Speaker 1: kind of like the secret religious police there. But for instance,

498
00:23:29,341 --> 00:23:32,141
Speaker 1: the US and lots of other Western countries had already

499
00:23:32,222 --> 00:23:35,502
Speaker 1: said that that group was a terrorist organization. So it's

500
00:23:35,502 --> 00:23:38,782
Speaker 1: almost like by doing this, Iran's kind of goading Australia

501
00:23:38,901 --> 00:23:41,261
Speaker 1: into coming up to speed with the rest of the

502
00:23:41,262 --> 00:23:42,542
Speaker 1: West in sanctioning them.

503
00:23:42,581 --> 00:23:45,902
Speaker 3: It's very odd, and what it did achieve was its

504
00:23:45,942 --> 00:23:48,101
Speaker 3: goal of terrorizing the Jewish community.

505
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:49,742
Speaker 4: Like it said, it's horrific.

506
00:23:49,821 --> 00:23:53,861
Speaker 3: There are just to know that these attacks were so

507
00:23:53,982 --> 00:23:59,381
Speaker 3: targeted and by a foreign power. I think is terrifying

508
00:23:59,542 --> 00:24:04,022
Speaker 3: and it continues to compromise social cohesion. There's an incredible

509
00:24:04,141 --> 00:24:07,222
Speaker 3: article by Kylie Moore Gilbert in the Sydney Morning Herald

510
00:24:07,262 --> 00:24:10,861
Speaker 3: in the Age where she right about she was.

511
00:24:10,861 --> 00:24:11,861
Speaker 4: Imprisoned in Iran.

512
00:24:11,901 --> 00:24:16,141
Speaker 3: She's an Australian academic and she says that in twenty

513
00:24:16,182 --> 00:24:19,782
Speaker 3: twenty she was being interrogated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps

514
00:24:19,942 --> 00:24:22,821
Speaker 3: and they were presenting her with a paper with the

515
00:24:22,901 --> 00:24:25,942
Speaker 3: names and addresses of multiple synagogues in Melbourne and wanted information.

516
00:24:26,141 --> 00:24:29,341
Speaker 3: So what she's trying to say is that her, along

517
00:24:29,341 --> 00:24:33,262
Speaker 3: with lots of members of Iranian Diaspra, have been saying

518
00:24:33,302 --> 00:24:36,982
Speaker 3: for a long time these are really dangerous people, basically

519
00:24:37,182 --> 00:24:40,902
Speaker 3: call them a terrorist organization, and now Australia has come

520
00:24:40,901 --> 00:24:43,222
Speaker 3: to the table and kind of acknowledged just how dangerous

521
00:24:43,262 --> 00:24:46,542
Speaker 3: they are. This operation as well has been so interesting

522
00:24:46,542 --> 00:24:49,581
Speaker 3: because what Australia needed to do was get their diplomats

523
00:24:49,581 --> 00:24:52,221
Speaker 3: out of Iran before they did any of this to

524
00:24:52,302 --> 00:24:55,821
Speaker 3: keep everyone everyone safe. So yeah, we are just going

525
00:24:55,901 --> 00:24:58,061
Speaker 3: to learn a lot more about this in the coming

526
00:24:58,542 --> 00:25:03,181
Speaker 3: weeks and months after the break Northwest, the daughter of

527
00:25:03,262 --> 00:25:05,821
Speaker 3: Kim Kardashian and Kanye West went to dinner in a

528
00:25:05,901 --> 00:25:07,942
Speaker 3: corset and everyone is clutching their pearls.

529
00:25:08,101 --> 00:25:10,742
Speaker 4: Holly needs a moment to puff fish.

530
00:25:10,462 --> 00:25:14,222
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

531
00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:18,341
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

532
00:25:18,341 --> 00:25:20,061
Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your ears

533
00:25:20,381 --> 00:25:23,101
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to

534
00:25:23,302 --> 00:25:24,902
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

535
00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:35,662
Speaker 3: This week, Northwest and her mother, Kim Kardashian were spotted

536
00:25:35,702 --> 00:25:39,382
Speaker 3: in Rome, having no doubt a very lovely meal. Paparazzi

537
00:25:39,422 --> 00:25:43,181
Speaker 3: pictures began to circulate, which North has been experiencing her

538
00:25:43,182 --> 00:25:46,382
Speaker 3: whole life, but this time the commentary was very different.

539
00:25:47,101 --> 00:25:50,302
Speaker 3: For context, North is twelve, She is the eldest of

540
00:25:50,502 --> 00:25:53,222
Speaker 3: Kim and Kanye's four kids. Kim and Kanye are divorced,

541
00:25:53,702 --> 00:25:56,661
Speaker 3: and she was wearing a black corset, a short skirt,

542
00:25:56,742 --> 00:26:00,502
Speaker 3: and chunky black boots, and the Internet swiftly decided that

543
00:26:00,581 --> 00:26:03,821
Speaker 3: this was not appropriate attire for child.

544
00:26:04,302 --> 00:26:05,341
Speaker 4: The thing about twelve year.

545
00:26:05,222 --> 00:26:07,462
Speaker 3: Old girls, as someone who was once a very awkward

546
00:26:07,502 --> 00:26:11,742
Speaker 3: twelve year old girl knows, is that some still look

547
00:26:11,861 --> 00:26:15,022
Speaker 3: like kids, and others have begun to change. And you

548
00:26:15,141 --> 00:26:18,901
Speaker 3: have no control over that west And I hate to

549
00:26:19,141 --> 00:26:23,341
Speaker 3: even say this, but unfortunately it's important context. She falls

550
00:26:23,341 --> 00:26:26,421
Speaker 3: into the latter category, so she might look different in

551
00:26:26,462 --> 00:26:28,861
Speaker 3: a corset to how another twelve year old may look

552
00:26:29,022 --> 00:26:33,102
Speaker 3: in a corset. Comments started flooding in about how inappropriate

553
00:26:33,182 --> 00:26:37,021
Speaker 3: North's outfit was, reminding Kim that her daughter was only twelve,

554
00:26:37,061 --> 00:26:40,381
Speaker 3: which I'm sure she'd forgotten. One comment read not a

555
00:26:40,422 --> 00:26:42,542
Speaker 3: fan of a busty air on a twelve year old.

556
00:26:42,702 --> 00:26:46,621
Speaker 3: Another said it's Kim's job to preserve her daughter's innocence,

557
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:50,662
Speaker 3: and another said why does North look thirty two? Then

558
00:26:50,702 --> 00:26:53,222
Speaker 3: there were others who argued it's literally not up to

559
00:26:53,302 --> 00:26:56,341
Speaker 3: Kim to shield her children from weirdos. It's up to

560
00:26:56,381 --> 00:26:59,821
Speaker 3: the general public to not be weird. Look, there are

561
00:26:59,821 --> 00:27:01,581
Speaker 3: a lot of places to go with this story, but

562
00:27:01,621 --> 00:27:05,222
Speaker 3: I'll tell you why these pictures captured my attention. Yesterday,

563
00:27:06,061 --> 00:27:08,501
Speaker 3: I was a young teen with boobs that I did

564
00:27:08,581 --> 00:27:11,382
Speaker 3: not want. I didn't know how to dress. I knew

565
00:27:11,502 --> 00:27:14,821
Speaker 3: that me wearing a white singlet wasn't read the same

566
00:27:15,022 --> 00:27:17,622
Speaker 3: as the girl next to me wearing a white singlet,

567
00:27:17,782 --> 00:27:18,422
Speaker 3: or the way.

568
00:27:18,262 --> 00:27:20,782
Speaker 2: That it was read last year. When you're wearing a.

569
00:27:20,742 --> 00:27:21,942
Speaker 4: White singlet exactly.

570
00:27:22,061 --> 00:27:25,141
Speaker 3: And I can see now in hindsight how much my

571
00:27:25,302 --> 00:27:28,861
Speaker 3: mum must have struggled to not say anything. And I

572
00:27:28,901 --> 00:27:31,822
Speaker 3: remember fighting with her to buy a stunning brown singlet.

573
00:27:31,861 --> 00:27:33,941
Speaker 3: It was a crop top with white riding across the

574
00:27:34,022 --> 00:27:36,941
Speaker 3: chest that said naughty gal was from soup Prey. And

575
00:27:37,022 --> 00:27:39,821
Speaker 3: I suppose my question here is what is the role

576
00:27:39,982 --> 00:27:42,542
Speaker 3: of parents? And let's be real, it is always considered

577
00:27:42,581 --> 00:27:46,381
Speaker 3: the domain of mothers to police their daughter's bodies.

578
00:27:46,782 --> 00:27:47,861
Speaker 4: Holly, I'm going.

579
00:27:47,821 --> 00:27:49,982
Speaker 2: To try really hard not to get all high pitched

580
00:27:50,022 --> 00:27:53,461
Speaker 2: and screechy about this, because it is an absolute puffer

581
00:27:53,502 --> 00:27:58,262
Speaker 2: fish for me. I have had so many arguments about

582
00:27:58,262 --> 00:28:01,502
Speaker 2: this in general with people in my life. I wrote

583
00:28:01,502 --> 00:28:05,221
Speaker 2: a frickin' book about it. Largely, there is nothing that

584
00:28:05,262 --> 00:28:09,502
Speaker 2: irritates me more than people screaming stop sexualizing young girl

585
00:28:09,742 --> 00:28:13,381
Speaker 2: while they are sexualizing the young girls themselves by deciding

586
00:28:13,381 --> 00:28:15,302
Speaker 2: that once their body has changed, it is no longer

587
00:28:15,341 --> 00:28:19,061
Speaker 2: appropriate for them to wear certain things. Right. It is

588
00:28:19,462 --> 00:28:23,422
Speaker 2: so confusing for young kids, as you have already expressed, Jesse,

589
00:28:23,661 --> 00:28:27,581
Speaker 2: that there's this weird liminal time where you know, last

590
00:28:27,581 --> 00:28:29,462
Speaker 2: summer it was fine for you to run around in

591
00:28:29,502 --> 00:28:32,262
Speaker 2: a bikini and no one was bothered. And this summer

592
00:28:32,302 --> 00:28:35,061
Speaker 2: everybody's like, oh, could you cover up? And you can

593
00:28:35,101 --> 00:28:38,222
Speaker 2: read it like kids are not stupid, They're incredibly sensitive

594
00:28:38,262 --> 00:28:40,421
Speaker 2: to shame in particular, and they can pick it up

595
00:28:40,462 --> 00:28:43,142
Speaker 2: all around them that suddenly something that has happened to

596
00:28:43,182 --> 00:28:45,022
Speaker 2: them that has nothing to do with them. It wasn't

597
00:28:45,062 --> 00:28:48,342
Speaker 2: in their control, it wasn't their choice has changed everything,

598
00:28:48,702 --> 00:28:53,142
Speaker 2: and suddenly their body in clothes, in a bikini, in jeans,

599
00:28:53,182 --> 00:28:55,062
Speaker 2: in a crop top in of course, it is a

600
00:28:55,342 --> 00:28:59,902
Speaker 2: dangerous thing that needs to now be treated very differently,

601
00:29:00,822 --> 00:29:05,221
Speaker 2: And I just find it so infuriating that women in

602
00:29:05,262 --> 00:29:09,542
Speaker 2: particular buy into this and pile onto moments like this Northwest. Obviously,

603
00:29:09,661 --> 00:29:12,102
Speaker 2: she's not an ordinary twelve year old. Of course she's not.

604
00:29:12,582 --> 00:29:14,862
Speaker 2: But I've lived through this, right, and I have a

605
00:29:14,902 --> 00:29:16,741
Speaker 2: fifteen year old daughter, and I'm around a lot of

606
00:29:16,822 --> 00:29:20,662
Speaker 2: girls of those ages. Walk into a Brandy Melville, walk

607
00:29:20,742 --> 00:29:23,542
Speaker 2: into a soup prey, walk into any shop, and you

608
00:29:23,582 --> 00:29:26,822
Speaker 2: will see young girls who are ordinary in terms of

609
00:29:26,902 --> 00:29:30,221
Speaker 2: you know, their background whatever, who want to dress this

610
00:29:30,302 --> 00:29:34,022
Speaker 2: way corsets, crop tops, tight little shirts with big, baggy

611
00:29:34,102 --> 00:29:36,421
Speaker 2: jeans or little raw raskirts are what a lot of

612
00:29:36,462 --> 00:29:39,582
Speaker 2: girls this age want to wear. The only difference with

613
00:29:39,661 --> 00:29:42,742
Speaker 2: what Northwest is doing is that hers have designer labels

614
00:29:42,742 --> 00:29:45,302
Speaker 2: on them, and hers get photographed by the entire world

615
00:29:45,342 --> 00:29:47,302
Speaker 2: and sent around for everybody to pick up and judge.

616
00:29:47,342 --> 00:29:49,382
Speaker 5: That is not the only difference between.

617
00:29:49,102 --> 00:29:51,342
Speaker 2: Them in this instance.

618
00:29:51,382 --> 00:29:55,862
Speaker 1: It is is Kim Kardashian. We cannot discuss this in isolation.

619
00:29:56,542 --> 00:29:59,181
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian. Now, I'm not making any kind of comment

620
00:29:59,262 --> 00:30:01,982
Speaker 1: on her as a mother. She's going through a lot

621
00:30:02,022 --> 00:30:05,262
Speaker 1: with a very very difficult ex husband who is also

622
00:30:05,422 --> 00:30:07,982
Speaker 1: dealing with mental health challenges. So I'm setting that aside

623
00:30:08,422 --> 00:30:11,382
Speaker 1: and saying that Kim Ashing from a very early age,

624
00:30:11,742 --> 00:30:15,622
Speaker 1: was sexualized by her own mother, and you're acting like

625
00:30:15,702 --> 00:30:16,742
Speaker 1: that's not common.

626
00:30:16,542 --> 00:30:18,942
Speaker 2: Because I don't believe in it. Because I really don't

627
00:30:18,942 --> 00:30:21,582
Speaker 2: believe that Northwest is being sexualized. That is my thing

628
00:30:21,742 --> 00:30:24,022
Speaker 2: is that I think that it's And I don't want

629
00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:26,342
Speaker 2: to get personal, either about myself or anybody else in this,

630
00:30:26,502 --> 00:30:30,701
Speaker 2: but it's very easy in all areas of parenting before

631
00:30:30,742 --> 00:30:33,622
Speaker 2: you've got there to go like I would never I

632
00:30:33,742 --> 00:30:35,142
Speaker 2: have never let my daughter.

633
00:30:35,822 --> 00:30:39,222
Speaker 1: My favorite pastime is talking about parenting stages I'm yet

634
00:30:39,222 --> 00:30:41,622
Speaker 1: to reach, and the various rules that I will impose

635
00:30:41,661 --> 00:30:43,862
Speaker 1: at that stage, Just like when I was pregnant, I

636
00:30:43,862 --> 00:30:45,622
Speaker 1: said I would never use screens screen.

637
00:30:46,661 --> 00:30:49,382
Speaker 2: Have you met a tween? Have you met a particularly

638
00:30:49,422 --> 00:30:52,662
Speaker 2: precocious tween? Have you tried to make them do things

639
00:30:52,742 --> 00:30:54,622
Speaker 2: they don't want to do? Things they don't want to?

640
00:30:54,942 --> 00:30:57,822
Speaker 1: Say that what I'm doing is parent shaming. I'm saying

641
00:30:57,822 --> 00:31:01,181
Speaker 1: that there is context here that her mother's rise to

642
00:31:01,262 --> 00:31:04,181
Speaker 1: fame came from. And I'm not going to sugarcoat this

643
00:31:04,342 --> 00:31:07,782
Speaker 1: a sex tape that some people believe that is credibly

644
00:31:07,822 --> 00:31:09,862
Speaker 1: believed her mother had a hand in release.

645
00:31:09,942 --> 00:31:12,782
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of an empire built on sexualization, isn't it.

646
00:31:12,822 --> 00:31:13,422
Speaker 4: Is that your point?

647
00:31:13,422 --> 00:31:14,582
Speaker 6: I think so.

648
00:31:14,702 --> 00:31:18,782
Speaker 2: You genuinely think that the reason Northwest is wearing that course,

649
00:31:18,822 --> 00:31:20,302
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with what twelve year old

650
00:31:20,342 --> 00:31:23,262
Speaker 2: girls are wearing in the suburbs of Sydney. Everything to

651
00:31:23,302 --> 00:31:23,542
Speaker 2: do with.

652
00:31:24,342 --> 00:31:27,062
Speaker 1: This podcast about the fact that two things can be true.

653
00:31:28,782 --> 00:31:31,062
Speaker 2: I reject it. I thoroughly reject.

654
00:31:31,062 --> 00:31:33,422
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I reckon that there are two things going

655
00:31:33,462 --> 00:31:35,261
Speaker 3: on right because, on the one hand, I think we

656
00:31:35,302 --> 00:31:40,382
Speaker 3: are in a moment of cultural reckoning of giving children

657
00:31:40,742 --> 00:31:45,102
Speaker 3: any sort of public platform, and North challenges that. For

658
00:31:45,342 --> 00:31:47,622
Speaker 3: a lot of people, North, as a twelve year old,

659
00:31:47,782 --> 00:31:50,862
Speaker 3: is all over TikTok. North has been put on a

660
00:31:51,102 --> 00:31:53,942
Speaker 3: song by her father, who in March, by the way,

661
00:31:54,102 --> 00:31:56,342
Speaker 3: came out and basically went, I'm so uncomfortable that my

662
00:31:56,462 --> 00:31:59,262
Speaker 3: daughters are wearing perfume and the clothes that they're wearing,

663
00:31:59,302 --> 00:32:02,461
Speaker 3: and they're wearing lipstick and blah blah blah. My puffer

664
00:32:02,542 --> 00:32:05,822
Speaker 3: fish is men who are not involved in parenting sitting

665
00:32:05,822 --> 00:32:07,382
Speaker 3: on the sidelines criticizing the mother.

666
00:32:07,622 --> 00:32:08,782
Speaker 4: That's my puffer fish.

667
00:32:09,022 --> 00:32:12,542
Speaker 3: But my point about that is that I think that

668
00:32:12,582 --> 00:32:17,982
Speaker 3: there is a growing discomfort about having young kids in

669
00:32:18,022 --> 00:32:23,102
Speaker 3: the spotlight. And Kanye just recently put Northwest on a

670
00:32:23,302 --> 00:32:29,382
Speaker 3: song with convicted sex felon PDDY exactly right. So there's

671
00:32:29,382 --> 00:32:32,062
Speaker 3: a big discussion that I think it's probably playing into

672
00:32:32,142 --> 00:32:35,421
Speaker 3: that a little bit, which is who is protecting Northwest?

673
00:32:35,742 --> 00:32:37,181
Speaker 2: But this is the thing is, I don't think that

674
00:32:37,222 --> 00:32:39,421
Speaker 2: is what anyone in the comments section is worried about,

675
00:32:39,462 --> 00:32:42,142
Speaker 2: because I think that what you think of Kim and

676
00:32:42,222 --> 00:32:45,742
Speaker 2: Kanye's parenting choices is one thing, right, And I entirely

677
00:32:45,742 --> 00:32:47,662
Speaker 2: agree with you about whether or not it's in any

678
00:32:47,661 --> 00:32:49,302
Speaker 2: way healthy for a twelve year old to have the

679
00:32:49,382 --> 00:32:53,342
Speaker 2: kind of plantchion platform that Northwest does. We are talking

680
00:32:53,382 --> 00:32:56,461
Speaker 2: specifically here about clothes, and the reason that it is

681
00:32:56,462 --> 00:33:00,382
Speaker 2: a pufferfish and a trigger is because that is something

682
00:33:00,462 --> 00:33:03,222
Speaker 2: we all relate to. Is I know you're not there yet,

683
00:33:03,262 --> 00:33:06,421
Speaker 2: but this is something that will suddenly happen where your daughter,

684
00:33:06,822 --> 00:33:09,221
Speaker 2: as I say, is wearing something that was fine for

685
00:33:09,222 --> 00:33:11,542
Speaker 2: her to six months ago, but suddenly they're like, how

686
00:33:11,582 --> 00:33:13,461
Speaker 2: could you let your daughter wear that? Okay, and so

687
00:33:13,502 --> 00:33:15,062
Speaker 2: what's the conversation you're going to hide?

688
00:33:15,342 --> 00:33:17,302
Speaker 1: I have an example. I don't want to make this

689
00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:19,661
Speaker 1: about our parenting choices, so I'm going to try and

690
00:33:19,702 --> 00:33:22,142
Speaker 1: step back and talk in more general terms about how

691
00:33:22,142 --> 00:33:24,902
Speaker 1: I felt recently when I saw a picture that made

692
00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:28,421
Speaker 1: me uncomfortable. I love the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, and I

693
00:33:28,462 --> 00:33:31,462
Speaker 1: love the Netflix documentary about them, which just finished its

694
00:33:31,462 --> 00:33:34,102
Speaker 1: second season. Highly recommend if you have not watched it,

695
00:33:34,702 --> 00:33:37,421
Speaker 1: because I'm now a super fan. I follow everything they do.

696
00:33:37,622 --> 00:33:40,181
Speaker 1: They had a summer camp and they invited six year

697
00:33:40,222 --> 00:33:42,662
Speaker 1: olds to come along and learn how to cheerlead with them,

698
00:33:42,942 --> 00:33:45,382
Speaker 1: which is great because it is an athletic endeavor that

699
00:33:45,502 --> 00:33:48,142
Speaker 1: involves a lot of artistry. And I applaud that there

700
00:33:48,142 --> 00:33:51,622
Speaker 1: were six year olds on the field wearing modified Dallas

701
00:33:51,661 --> 00:33:55,622
Speaker 1: Cowboys cheerleaders outfits. And they were modified in the sense

702
00:33:55,661 --> 00:33:57,742
Speaker 1: that the chierleaders were very I think it's safe to

703
00:33:57,742 --> 00:34:01,022
Speaker 1: say skimpy outfits. They have little extreme crop tops with

704
00:34:01,102 --> 00:34:04,422
Speaker 1: a bow over the cleavage, and these six year olds

705
00:34:04,462 --> 00:34:07,622
Speaker 1: were wearing T shirts printed with that bow and the

706
00:34:07,661 --> 00:34:10,261
Speaker 1: little bedazzled jacket that they wear on top of it.

707
00:34:10,742 --> 00:34:13,261
Speaker 1: And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't made

708
00:34:13,342 --> 00:34:15,582
Speaker 1: uncomfortable by that. Now, does that mean that I am

709
00:34:15,661 --> 00:34:19,022
Speaker 1: sexualizing the six year olds? Maybe? Maybe it's my problem,

710
00:34:19,062 --> 00:34:20,542
Speaker 1: but I felt uncomfortable.

711
00:34:20,622 --> 00:34:23,862
Speaker 2: I think there is a world of difference between a commercialized,

712
00:34:24,342 --> 00:34:27,022
Speaker 2: systematic kind of this is what the young girls who

713
00:34:27,102 --> 00:34:28,542
Speaker 2: dance have to look like. It's one of the reasons

714
00:34:28,582 --> 00:34:31,261
Speaker 2: why I genuinely was uncomfortable about my daughter and never

715
00:34:31,342 --> 00:34:33,982
Speaker 2: doing dancing is because there's no choice there. It's like

716
00:34:34,062 --> 00:34:37,022
Speaker 2: from six Lipstick Hair Foundation.

717
00:34:37,221 --> 00:34:40,741
Speaker 1: You just described it as a commercialized, systematic operation that is.

718
00:34:40,701 --> 00:34:45,142
Speaker 2: The Kardashian no. But what they have always buughted the boundaries,

719
00:34:45,142 --> 00:34:46,862
Speaker 2: because I agree with you about that those pictures of

720
00:34:46,942 --> 00:34:50,301
Speaker 2: Dallas cowboy cheerleader's made me really uncomfortable, right, But my

721
00:34:50,582 --> 00:34:53,341
Speaker 2: argument about why Northwest is being shamed for wearing a

722
00:34:53,382 --> 00:34:56,142
Speaker 2: corset is to me a completely separated well.

723
00:34:56,142 --> 00:34:58,422
Speaker 3: The irony of the corset, and in fact the irony

724
00:34:58,462 --> 00:35:00,901
Speaker 3: of the six year olds with the cheerleading as well,

725
00:35:01,302 --> 00:35:04,382
Speaker 3: is that they're just imitating what the older women in

726
00:35:04,422 --> 00:35:05,661
Speaker 3: their lives are doing. So if you look at the

727
00:35:05,661 --> 00:35:08,701
Speaker 3: picture of Kim and north not is just dress like Kim,

728
00:35:08,942 --> 00:35:10,902
Speaker 3: And it's like, how do you explain to a twelve

729
00:35:10,982 --> 00:35:14,542
Speaker 3: year old that their body is more sexualized than the

730
00:35:14,542 --> 00:35:16,462
Speaker 3: body of an adult woman, that you will never be

731
00:35:16,502 --> 00:35:19,781
Speaker 3: as sexualized as the moment you have curves.

732
00:35:20,422 --> 00:35:22,622
Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring to you both something that

733
00:35:22,661 --> 00:35:26,661
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about a lot lately about clothing. I

734
00:35:26,741 --> 00:35:29,622
Speaker 1: love buying second hand clothes, and I especially love calling

735
00:35:29,622 --> 00:35:32,381
Speaker 1: them vintage because it makes it some more fancy. In fact,

736
00:35:32,422 --> 00:35:34,422
Speaker 1: I'm wearing a great top I got at Finney's today,

737
00:35:34,542 --> 00:35:36,662
Speaker 1: and you told me that you got yours.

738
00:35:36,542 --> 00:35:38,301
Speaker 3: At I think it was deep hop or it could

739
00:35:38,342 --> 00:35:39,942
Speaker 3: have been like a Red Cross store.

740
00:35:40,062 --> 00:35:42,542
Speaker 1: I'm wondering why you look like Sienna Miller.

741
00:35:42,701 --> 00:35:43,181
Speaker 5: I love it.

742
00:35:43,822 --> 00:35:45,701
Speaker 1: But the one thing that really trips me up in

743
00:35:45,781 --> 00:35:48,341
Speaker 1: buying secondhand and even an extending the life span of

744
00:35:48,342 --> 00:35:50,822
Speaker 1: my existing clothes is stains. Because you get a stain

745
00:35:50,902 --> 00:35:52,861
Speaker 1: and then you think I don't really want to wear

746
00:35:52,862 --> 00:35:54,781
Speaker 1: that anymore, You get self conscious, you think I've got

747
00:35:54,822 --> 00:35:56,341
Speaker 1: to take it to the dry cleaner. It goes in

748
00:35:56,342 --> 00:35:57,942
Speaker 1: a pile of clothes for the dry cleaner, which of

749
00:35:57,982 --> 00:36:00,462
Speaker 1: course never actually leaves your sofa or the chair in

750
00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:02,902
Speaker 1: your bedroom that you have designated for the dry cleaner.

751
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:06,022
Speaker 1: So there's this real stigma around clothing stage. I think

752
00:36:06,062 --> 00:36:09,102
Speaker 1: that's safe to say. And there's a substacker called Isabelle

753
00:36:09,181 --> 00:36:11,741
Speaker 1: Slow who wrote recently that we all just need to

754
00:36:11,781 --> 00:36:13,462
Speaker 1: get over the stain problem.

755
00:36:13,542 --> 00:36:14,301
Speaker 3: Couldn't agree there.

756
00:36:14,462 --> 00:36:16,422
Speaker 1: She wrote a piece called on Loving My Clothes with

757
00:36:16,462 --> 00:36:19,341
Speaker 1: stains and Holes, and she talks about trying to actively

758
00:36:19,701 --> 00:36:23,262
Speaker 1: shift her mindset when it comes to imperfections in her clothing.

759
00:36:23,781 --> 00:36:26,062
Speaker 1: She says, a stain can end the life cycle of

760
00:36:26,102 --> 00:36:28,421
Speaker 1: a clothing item just too early, like you might still

761
00:36:28,462 --> 00:36:29,821
Speaker 1: love it. I think about the fact that I used

762
00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:32,301
Speaker 1: to love wearing silk shirts to work, and then I

763
00:36:32,342 --> 00:36:36,381
Speaker 1: realized that they all had awful yellow stains underneath them,

764
00:36:36,382 --> 00:36:37,862
Speaker 1: and then I just never wore them again.

765
00:36:38,102 --> 00:36:40,542
Speaker 3: I struggle with silk and sweating. I find that my

766
00:36:40,661 --> 00:36:42,702
Speaker 3: sweat I'm like, is my sweat different? Because I feel

767
00:36:42,701 --> 00:36:45,062
Speaker 3: like I ruin every the issues. I don't know how

768
00:36:45,062 --> 00:36:47,341
Speaker 3: to wash silk, which is a whole other thing no

769
00:36:47,342 --> 00:36:47,701
Speaker 3: one does.

770
00:36:47,741 --> 00:36:52,261
Speaker 1: And you mentioned gently agitate, but who is very complex?

771
00:36:52,342 --> 00:36:54,582
Speaker 1: And think about all those little silk worms who work

772
00:36:54,701 --> 00:36:57,301
Speaker 1: so hard for these things, and then we're just discarding them.

773
00:36:57,382 --> 00:37:00,662
Speaker 1: So here's a proposal. What if we decide that stain's

774
00:37:00,701 --> 00:37:02,781
Speaker 1: a character, that they're kind of cool, and look, we

775
00:37:02,862 --> 00:37:05,181
Speaker 1: do this with other items. Think about the Burken bag,

776
00:37:05,261 --> 00:37:07,982
Speaker 1: the famous Umez Birken bag. They retail for tens of

777
00:37:08,022 --> 00:37:11,701
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. It's named after this French style icon

778
00:37:11,822 --> 00:37:14,462
Speaker 1: named Jane Burkin. And the whole point of how she

779
00:37:14,542 --> 00:37:17,341
Speaker 1: used her bags is that she scuffed them, She wore

780
00:37:17,382 --> 00:37:19,701
Speaker 1: them to the ground, she puts stickers on them, she

781
00:37:19,741 --> 00:37:23,941
Speaker 1: stuffed bagets in them. And Kate Moss, who's another style icon,

782
00:37:24,462 --> 00:37:26,902
Speaker 1: was just recently seen on the beach with her burken

783
00:37:27,102 --> 00:37:29,142
Speaker 1: She took an eighteen thousand dollars bag to the beach

784
00:37:29,181 --> 00:37:30,422
Speaker 1: and put her beach towel in it.

785
00:37:30,661 --> 00:37:33,022
Speaker 2: So that's a status symbol though, right though, that's kind

786
00:37:33,062 --> 00:37:35,542
Speaker 2: of like saying, I know this bag is really expensive,

787
00:37:35,542 --> 00:37:37,701
Speaker 2: but to me, it's just like the green bag, you

788
00:37:37,701 --> 00:37:38,781
Speaker 2: know from the supermarket.

789
00:37:38,862 --> 00:37:41,301
Speaker 1: All you could say it's very sustainable of them. So

790
00:37:41,462 --> 00:37:44,022
Speaker 1: I want to say, let's stop being precious about the stains.

791
00:37:44,062 --> 00:37:46,221
Speaker 1: Let's stop do we judge people who have stains. No,

792
00:37:46,462 --> 00:37:48,702
Speaker 1: so let's accept that we can just wear the stains

793
00:37:48,741 --> 00:37:50,542
Speaker 1: and they're a sign of character and they're a sign

794
00:37:50,582 --> 00:37:51,022
Speaker 1: of age.

795
00:37:51,261 --> 00:37:54,502
Speaker 3: I think antique furniture like that has little stains on it,

796
00:37:54,542 --> 00:37:58,142
Speaker 3: and that's absolutely fine. I wear stains all the time

797
00:37:58,181 --> 00:38:01,142
Speaker 3: because my theory is no one's looking at you, no

798
00:38:01,221 --> 00:38:05,942
Speaker 3: one notices the things that you notice. They don't. And interestingly,

799
00:38:06,462 --> 00:38:07,981
Speaker 3: I went really deep on what you can and can't

800
00:38:07,982 --> 00:38:10,221
Speaker 3: donate recently. You can't donate a piece of clothing with

801
00:38:10,261 --> 00:38:12,622
Speaker 3: a stain on it, which is why so much of

802
00:38:12,661 --> 00:38:15,622
Speaker 3: it ends up in landfill and really good quality stuff,

803
00:38:15,982 --> 00:38:19,261
Speaker 3: which again they think is related to people don't know

804
00:38:19,302 --> 00:38:21,422
Speaker 3: how to wash their clothes anymore, like the skills of

805
00:38:21,462 --> 00:38:24,181
Speaker 3: our grandmothers, who could get a stain out of anything,

806
00:38:24,902 --> 00:38:28,701
Speaker 3: which you know was always baking, so like Vegga, I

807
00:38:28,741 --> 00:38:30,781
Speaker 3: don't know, they would do something and get the stain out.

808
00:38:32,022 --> 00:38:34,462
Speaker 2: A lot of influencers who are obsessed with that stuff.

809
00:38:34,542 --> 00:38:36,742
Speaker 3: I think we need to go back to like learning

810
00:38:36,741 --> 00:38:39,382
Speaker 3: how to wash our clothes, but also rock the stain.

811
00:38:39,661 --> 00:38:41,901
Speaker 3: Mayor Friedman would say, put a brooch over it.

812
00:38:42,022 --> 00:38:45,701
Speaker 2: I want to know how many years is acceptable to

813
00:38:45,701 --> 00:38:47,661
Speaker 2: have a piece of clothing or something like that. I

814
00:38:47,902 --> 00:38:49,781
Speaker 2: put a thing in the Outlouders Facebook group on the

815
00:38:49,781 --> 00:38:52,701
Speaker 2: weekend about towels on a similar vein right. I wrote

816
00:38:52,781 --> 00:38:54,902
Speaker 2: that because I wanted some tips and I knew the

817
00:38:54,902 --> 00:38:56,781
Speaker 2: outluders would help me out about where to buy a

818
00:38:56,862 --> 00:38:59,661
Speaker 2: job lot of new towels, because I suddenly looked at

819
00:38:59,701 --> 00:39:01,422
Speaker 2: the towels in my bathroom and realized that they were

820
00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:03,102
Speaker 2: all quite rady, and that some of them, quite a

821
00:39:03,142 --> 00:39:05,622
Speaker 2: lot of them were older than my children. And that's

822
00:39:05,661 --> 00:39:08,422
Speaker 2: all right, well this is the thing. But they were tatty, okay,

823
00:39:08,462 --> 00:39:10,342
Speaker 2: and some of them, you know, they the thing anyway,

824
00:39:10,422 --> 00:39:12,462
Speaker 2: So the Outlouders were full of really great ideas. They

825
00:39:12,462 --> 00:39:13,902
Speaker 2: were like, go and buy them from game. Aren't they

826
00:39:13,942 --> 00:39:16,662
Speaker 2: really good? And fluffy blah blah blah blah. But several

827
00:39:16,661 --> 00:39:20,702
Speaker 2: of them said, let's normalize having tails older than our children.

828
00:39:20,942 --> 00:39:23,142
Speaker 3: And I feel the same about tea taels. I have

829
00:39:23,261 --> 00:39:25,342
Speaker 3: had tea tails for a very long time with holes

830
00:39:25,342 --> 00:39:27,022
Speaker 3: in them and burns on them, and I'm like it

831
00:39:27,221 --> 00:39:30,902
Speaker 3: just it shows all the years I've been slogging away cooking,

832
00:39:30,942 --> 00:39:32,102
Speaker 3: which is not what's happened.

833
00:39:32,221 --> 00:39:33,262
Speaker 4: That's character.

834
00:39:33,382 --> 00:39:36,022
Speaker 2: I love it. And coffee steams. That is all we

835
00:39:36,102 --> 00:39:38,741
Speaker 2: have time for today. Out Loud is what a big day.

836
00:39:38,822 --> 00:39:41,102
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to our show, and

837
00:39:41,142 --> 00:39:43,742
Speaker 2: thank you to our wonderful team for putting it together.

838
00:39:43,862 --> 00:39:46,342
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

839
00:39:45,982 --> 00:39:48,102
Speaker 3: And out Loud as we may have teased it, but

840
00:39:48,342 --> 00:39:52,582
Speaker 3: tomorrow we are going to drop a very special subscriber

841
00:39:52,661 --> 00:39:55,381
Speaker 3: episode all about Taylor's engagement. There was so much more

842
00:39:55,382 --> 00:39:58,302
Speaker 3: that we wanted to say. Maya is our very special guest.

843
00:39:58,582 --> 00:40:01,542
Speaker 3: She's wearing ridiculous out hit and if you're not a

844
00:40:01,582 --> 00:40:04,102
Speaker 3: swifty feeling a bit left out, then may I suggest

845
00:40:04,382 --> 00:40:07,741
Speaker 3: you go back. You listen to yesterday's subscriber episode where

846
00:40:07,822 --> 00:40:10,901
Speaker 3: I made an apology because it turns out that I'm

847
00:40:10,902 --> 00:40:12,622
Speaker 3: wrong all the time, and I said something on this

848
00:40:12,701 --> 00:40:16,262
Speaker 3: show that I swiftly regretted thanks to an out louder

849
00:40:16,302 --> 00:40:18,661
Speaker 3: who called me out. She's now come back and said,

850
00:40:18,661 --> 00:40:21,861
Speaker 3: thank you Jesse for your lovely apology, and I she's

851
00:40:21,862 --> 00:40:22,542
Speaker 3: my new best friend.

852
00:40:22,542 --> 00:40:23,301
Speaker 5: We're always learning.

853
00:40:23,502 --> 00:40:25,622
Speaker 3: We are always learning. A link to that is in

854
00:40:25,661 --> 00:40:26,422
Speaker 3: our show notes.

855
00:40:26,462 --> 00:40:28,062
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

856
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:30,942
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.

857
00:40:31,181 --> 00:40:33,341
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

858
00:40:33,582 --> 00:40:36,382
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way

859
00:40:36,422 --> 00:40:38,982
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.