Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Mummy are
Speaker 2: out Loud where women come to debrief. I am Jesse Stevens,
Speaker 2: I'm to.
Speaker 1: Me Moore, and I'm Amelia Luster.
Speaker 2: Now why are you Demi Moore?
Speaker 3: Because I'm very husky today. Oh it's my only fans voice.
Speaker 2: You sound like shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. I'm so sorry out that is. I
Speaker 3: know it's really annoying to listen to someone when they
Speaker 3: don't have much of a voice. So I'll try to
Speaker 3: speak less than usual. But there's so much good stuff
Speaker 3: today that I couldn't I know you I had fomo.
Speaker 1: You're also curled your eyelashes with mscara On, and I'm
Speaker 1: still recovering from that.
Speaker 2: Guys, just live a little yeah out loud as we
Speaker 2: were sitting here getting ready, I don't know why you've
Speaker 2: felt the urge to curl your eyelashes. The outlouders aren't
Speaker 2: looking at your eyelashes, but you did it with muscara
Speaker 2: On and we're concerned that you're pulling them out of
Speaker 2: the roof. And we've had an intervention.
Speaker 3: You would be right. Sometimes I do okay, all right,
Speaker 3: but it works better.
Speaker 2: Here's what's on our agenda for today, Wednesday, the sixteenth
Speaker 2: of July. Bradley John Murdoch died in custody overnight, almost
Speaker 2: exactly twenty four years after murdering Peter Falconio in the Outback.
Speaker 2: So why is his death so significant?
Speaker 3: It has been a big week for hate watching. There
Speaker 3: are two shows in particular that a lot of people
Speaker 3: hate watching, including some of us, And we're going to
Speaker 3: talk about the reason why so many of us are
Speaker 3: clocking so much time in front of shows that we
Speaker 3: objectively think are terrible.
Speaker 1: And Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump and the Missing Files that
Speaker 1: everyone wants to see. But first, in case you missed it,
Speaker 1: Millennials are getting revenge on gen Z for making fun
Speaker 1: of their nose show socks and their side parts and
Speaker 1: I am so here for it. On TikTok, millennials are
Speaker 1: talking about the gen Zed stare. This is, in particular
Speaker 1: a workplace phenomenon where gen Z employees Greek customers or
Speaker 1: colleagues with a vacant expression and are unable to respond
Speaker 1: to niceties or polite conversation. So in various TikTok skits,
Speaker 1: what happens is that users place themselves in this hypothetical situation.
Speaker 1: They might be in a coffee shop, or they might
Speaker 1: be in a restaurant, and they roll play the order
Speaker 1: taking process with a gen Z employee, and you just
Speaker 1: see this young worker stare back at them with dead eyes.
Speaker 1: They look at you just like they saw a ghost.
Speaker 1: Said one TikToker. It's this blank deer in the headlights stare.
Speaker 1: And the hashtag gen zed stare has actually reached more
Speaker 1: than four thousand posts on TikTok. There's viral videos, Jesse,
Speaker 1: fellow millennial, Are we just getting jed Z back for
Speaker 1: coining the idea of the millennial pause?
Speaker 2: Yes, and no, there is something about gen Z that
Speaker 2: I look at and go, it's some of what we're
Speaker 2: critiquing them for, the inevitable sort of immaturity of being
Speaker 2: twenty Like, is that how we all behave in not?
Speaker 1: When you worked at Jumper Juice, I'm sure you always
Speaker 1: bought your a game post.
Speaker 3: Juice, No American. I think it's because they don't know
Speaker 3: how to do listening face when you have communicated your
Speaker 3: whole life via text message you don't know how to
Speaker 3: do active listening face.
Speaker 2: The thing about gen Zed is that they are a
Speaker 2: generation who has had an entirely different experience to any
Speaker 2: generation before them for two reasons. The first is the
Speaker 2: text messaging, the second is the pandemic. So they lost
Speaker 2: two years of what is being called kind of soft skills.
Speaker 2: And there was an incredible article in Fortune about the
Speaker 2: gen Z presence in workplaces and how soft skills that
Speaker 2: managers and bosses took for granted and thought people just
Speaker 2: had and now having to become really explicitly trained. And
Speaker 2: I do think that there's a bit of cruelty to
Speaker 2: the mocking of gen Z because it's not their fault.
Speaker 2: Like at a formative age of adolescence, this demographic were
Speaker 2: in their homes, they said bye to their friends one day,
Speaker 2: and for some of them, they didn't see them for months,
Speaker 2: potentially even years.
Speaker 1: They were doing zoom. But Jesse the millennial poor, which
Speaker 1: we should explain, is the phenomenon whereby when millennials are
Speaker 1: recording a social media video, they kind of pause at
Speaker 1: the side of the video to check that it's recording
Speaker 1: and the proceed which of course we all do. That's
Speaker 1: not our fault either. We didn't grow up with TikTok,
Speaker 1: and we're still being lamp basted for what we do now.
Speaker 3: There are invisible socks. Well, no one even talks about
Speaker 3: gen X.
Speaker 2: No, you're completely irrelevant Millennials. I feel like I've really
Speaker 2: copped this on the chin. I think that we're pretty
Speaker 2: good at being made fun of. What's been telling about
Speaker 2: this is that gen Z don't like it. They're going, well,
Speaker 2: I don't owe you a smile, And it's a generations
Speaker 2: emotional labor. Yes, that's been raised on authenticity and not
Speaker 2: just owing someone pleasantries, which is funny because welcome to
Speaker 2: customer service, welcome to any job where you engage with
Speaker 2: the public. And what this Fortune article was saying is
Speaker 2: that there are all these misunderstandings, complaints from customers, they're
Speaker 2: being perceived as rude. But this could be kind of,
Speaker 2: I guess, like a cultural turning point where this fakery
Speaker 2: that millennials and gen X have engaged in where we're
Speaker 2: kind of over the top nice or whatever, maybe now
Speaker 2: we're just more straightforward and when we're not nice, if
Speaker 2: we don't feel like it.
Speaker 3: It reminds me of you know, third children, have to
Speaker 3: raise themselves. And I remember with my third child, I
Speaker 3: realized that I this is when landlines were still around.
Speaker 3: I realized I'd forgotten how to tell him to end
Speaker 3: a phone conversation and he would just finish speaking in.
Speaker 1: A so he basically was like in any movie or
Speaker 1: TV show, they never say goodbye. No, he was living that.
Speaker 3: Maybe this is the problem. They just haven't been taught
Speaker 3: that you have to have active listening face overnight.
Speaker 2: Bradley John Murdoch died at the age of sixty seven,
Speaker 2: twenty four years after murdering a man named Peter Falconio.
Speaker 2: You've probably seen the headlines today. There's a lot of names,
Speaker 2: but I want to go back a few steps and
Speaker 2: explain what happened and why his death is so significant.
Speaker 2: So it's July two thousand and one, and it's almost
Speaker 2: exactly twenty four years to the day. British backpackers Peter
Speaker 2: Falconio he was twenty eight at the time, and Joanne
Speaker 2: Lee's she was twenty seven. They were boyfriend and girlfriend
Speaker 2: were road tripping around Australia and their parents were really
Speaker 2: anxious about this leg of their trip. They'd gone to
Speaker 2: a few places before and they were anxious because the
Speaker 2: Ivan Malatt backpacker murders had happened, and also it was
Speaker 2: in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre. And so
Speaker 2: they said to their parents were going to be really careful.
Speaker 2: It's fine.
Speaker 3: And they're a little bit older than your average backpacker.
Speaker 3: They weren't in their early twenties or late teens. They were,
Speaker 3: you know, almost thirty.
Speaker 2: And they were seasoned travelers. And so I was a
Speaker 2: travel agent. Yeah, that's right. She actually worked at the
Speaker 2: Dimmick's store on George Street, which is literally about five
Speaker 2: minutes down the road, in order to save this trip.
Speaker 2: And on July fourteen, they reached Alice Springs and then
Speaker 2: they continued along the Stuart Highway towards the Devil's Marbles
Speaker 2: and as they passed this tiny town called Barrow Creek,
Speaker 2: they noticed headlights behind them, and then the driver came
Speaker 2: up beside them and Jess and basically said, there's sparks
Speaker 2: coming out of your car, and so they exited the car.
Speaker 2: Peter Falconio went behind the car with the man who
Speaker 2: would be Bradley John Murdock, and Joanne Lee's was in
Speaker 2: the driver's seat because she was revving the engine to
Speaker 2: see what was happening, and at that point she had
Speaker 2: a bang, and she wondered if it was to do
Speaker 2: with the car. It was actually a gunshot to Peter Falconio.
Speaker 2: And then Murdoch walked up the side, held a gun
Speaker 2: to her head and essentially tied her hands used from
Speaker 2: asking tape and put her in the tray of his truck.
Speaker 2: And then I'd forgotten all of the yeah, and then
Speaker 2: he Murdoch walked off to go and do something. She
Speaker 2: heard banging, and she had been fighting and fighting so
Speaker 2: that he couldn't put the cable ties around her ankles,
Speaker 2: and this meant that when he moved, she could kind
Speaker 2: of push her way off the tray and she ran
Speaker 2: and she hid behind bushes for five hours while she
Speaker 2: was hunted by who was looking for her with a torch.
Speaker 2: And then eventually there was like a road train that
Speaker 2: came past and she signaled and was rescued and then
Speaker 2: went to police. The investigation then became infamous because Lee's
Speaker 2: whose boyfriend had been murdered and she'd been attacked, actually
Speaker 2: came under suspicion. Do you remember this part of it?
Speaker 3: Because she didn't cry enough.
Speaker 2: Yes, So eleven days after this absolute tragedy, there was
Speaker 2: a press conference and she turned up and she had
Speaker 2: a T shirt on that said cheeky monkey, and people
Speaker 2: saw that as incredibly insensitive.
Speaker 3: Which is a bar and Barren Bay that they'd probably
Speaker 3: traveled to.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can see how in the trauma of
Speaker 2: what had occurred, you wouldn't even think about what was
Speaker 2: on your singlet. There was what she was wearing. There
Speaker 2: was the way she communicated with the media, which people
Speaker 2: saw as a bit stand office. She only wanted a
Speaker 2: few questions, and she didn't cry on cue.
Speaker 3: She must have been in such deep shock.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing here is parallel to Linda Chamberlain and
Speaker 1: the baby Azaria incident, also in the Outback. But what
Speaker 1: is interesting about both cases is that there's one woman
Speaker 1: who was the sole witness to the crime. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting that that's part of why I guess they get
Speaker 1: so undercut.
Speaker 2: Yes, and also with women, I think that we expect
Speaker 2: a level of an emotional response that we might not
Speaker 2: from a man. We expect the tears, And as someone
Speaker 2: who struggles to cry, I've always found these stories really
Speaker 2: interesting because people behave in incredibly unusual ways and unexpected
Speaker 2: ways in the face of tragedy, and that's what you
Speaker 2: learned from a lot of these stories. And what eventually
Speaker 2: happened was that the suspicion around her got so great
Speaker 2: that the police took her in for questioning. They interrogated
Speaker 2: her for three and a half hours, which you know,
Speaker 2: she found incredibly traumatizing, and eventually she was released without charge.
Speaker 2: Then a few years later there's a tip off from
Speaker 2: a man who said he knows who did it. Murdoch's
Speaker 2: DNA matched the DNA that was on Joanne Lee's clothes
Speaker 2: that she was wearing.
Speaker 1: And apparently, by the way that DNA, it was one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty quadrillion times more likely to have come
Speaker 1: from Murdock than anyone else. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they always say the likelihood of it, and
Speaker 2: so they tested that. They then found Murdoch. He was arrested, charged, sentenced,
Speaker 2: but he's always denied any involvement. The DNA is the point.
Speaker 2: And also his gun had Joanne Lees's hair tie around.
Speaker 1: It, and he also had some of her blood on
Speaker 1: his T shirt, yes, which he said he picked up
Speaker 1: because they were at the same lunch spot.
Speaker 2: Earlier that day exactly.
Speaker 1: But that said, I mean yes, so obviously all the
Speaker 1: evidence was really overwhelming, which is why he was convicted.
Speaker 1: But inevitably in these cases online slew some particular like
Speaker 1: to pick at holes, and there were unanswered questions about it,
Speaker 1: for instance, the motive for the crimes. This guy was
Speaker 1: a low level marijuana dealer by all accounts, and this
Speaker 1: really took his crime to the next level, and there
Speaker 1: was no apparent motive for it. I'm going to ask.
Speaker 3: About what his I have no memory of what his
Speaker 3: history had been.
Speaker 1: He was a low level marijuana dealer, but.
Speaker 3: Just like a loner. Had he been married, he was
Speaker 3: a loner.
Speaker 1: The only person to stand by him during the trial,
Speaker 1: which is interesting, was his girlfriend. Her name was Jen Pittman.
Speaker 1: Otherwise all of his former friends. The tip off actually
Speaker 1: came from one of his former friends. You know how
Speaker 1: sometimes when a serial killer, or when a particularly horrific
Speaker 1: murderer is found, the neighbors there's this cliche of the
Speaker 1: neighbors saying he was quiet, he catched himself. Not so
Speaker 1: with Murdoch. He was a no one racist and noa misogynist.
Speaker 1: He had beaten women before all of his friends disavowed
Speaker 1: him his former friends, so there was a sense that
Speaker 1: this was not necessarily surprising, but it was a big
Speaker 1: step up in terms of his past behavior of past crime.
Speaker 2: He wasn't a malat where you look at it that
Speaker 2: there's a pattern of behavior. But Murdoch denied that he
Speaker 2: had done this. And so the reason why it is
Speaker 2: so significant that he died this week is that he
Speaker 2: never told the family where Falconio's body.
Speaker 1: Is, and they never found the body.
Speaker 2: And they've never found the body.
Speaker 3: I mean, the outback is a very good place. But
Speaker 3: if he never admitted it, he never said what his
Speaker 3: motive was. No, no, so we never knew.
Speaker 2: No exactly right. And there is laws in some Australian states.
Speaker 2: New South Wales is one of them. It's called a
Speaker 2: nobody no parole law. So he was going to be
Speaker 2: eligible for parole I think in about twenty thirty two
Speaker 2: or something like that. He was never going to be
Speaker 2: allowed to do that unless he told authorities and the
Speaker 2: family where the body is. Because this is something when
Speaker 2: I hosted true crime conversations, this came up a lot,
Speaker 2: which is that it is the only power, and it's
Speaker 2: often men like Murdock hold over a victim and the
Speaker 2: victim's family.
Speaker 1: And I think part of the problem is meou references before,
Speaker 1: but the vastness of the outbacks so he What we
Speaker 1: know is that he drove eighteen hours after this on
Speaker 1: unsealed roads. It was a total of eighteen hundred kilometers,
Speaker 1: So no wonder they couldn't find the body because this
Speaker 1: is obviously a huge area. And I think that's part
Speaker 1: of why this story fascinated not just Australians but also
Speaker 1: people overseas, because it taps into all these fears that
Speaker 1: a lot of people around the world feel about the
Speaker 1: vastness of Australia and in particular the sort of severity
Speaker 1: of the outback is a landscape. We've seen how dangerous
Speaker 1: the outback is. Just last week we got another reminder
Speaker 1: when that German backpacker Carolina Wilger was found after eleven days.
Speaker 1: She lost twelve kilograms stranded out there in the outback.
Speaker 2: There are so many Australian books set there because the
Speaker 2: fear of even the outback with no one in it
Speaker 2: is terrifying.
Speaker 1: And reading about this I came across an interesting fact,
Speaker 1: which is, you know the movie Wolf Creek that was
Speaker 1: due to come out during the trial because it was
Speaker 1: an extremely long murder trial, one of the longest urder
Speaker 1: trials ever in Australia, and the judge at the time
Speaker 1: actually delay the Australian release of this horror movie Wolf
Speaker 1: Creek because he was worried that the plot synopsis was
Speaker 1: very similar. It's that classic sort of nightmarish trope of
Speaker 1: a crazed killer and the outback stalking people, and it
Speaker 1: just shows that that's really deeply embedded in us, like
Speaker 1: that's something that we have a fear of the outback
Speaker 1: for good reason. It's a very harsh place.
Speaker 2: And for anyone who has traveled to the outback in
Speaker 2: Australia and driven, you will know that seeing headlights behind
Speaker 2: you is actually really rare, Like you can drive for
Speaker 2: hours for days and not see anyone. So that fact
Speaker 2: of even seeing someone and then realizing the vulnerability of
Speaker 2: that moment of having someone there that you would have
Speaker 2: almost no choice, which is also I suppose with Malat
Speaker 2: why the mythology of that exists. It's just such a
Speaker 2: terrifying situation. And imagine being Lee's and experiencing that and
Speaker 2: then feeling the weight of all the speculation that comes
Speaker 2: at you. But I think more than anything, it's just
Speaker 2: a really sad day because for that family, hope feels lost,
Speaker 2: hope that they can bury and kind of laid to
Speaker 2: rest their son who will forever be twenty eight that
Speaker 2: dies with Murdock in.
Speaker 3: A moment the two shows. Everyone seems to be hate
Speaker 3: watching this week. Unless I miss something.
Speaker 1: You don't speak French speak it till you make it.
Speaker 2: I am tre xcta to be here. The PXO really
Speaker 2: excido does not mean excited, it means horny.
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 3: Nominations came out today and the TV shows that got
Speaker 3: more than twenty nominations each. The big winners were White Lotus, Severance,
Speaker 3: The Studio, The Penguin, and The Bear. Sounds Like a
Speaker 3: Day at the Zoo also recognized The Pit, the Diplomat,
Speaker 3: Slow Horses, the last of US hacks and only murders
Speaker 3: in the building. But one category that is not included
Speaker 3: in the Emmy Awards, which will be happening in a
Speaker 3: few weeks, is most hate Watched Show. I want to
Speaker 3: talk about hate watching because it's been a big week
Speaker 3: for hate watching. The final of Love Island USA happened,
Speaker 3: and all the commentary I've read about that is people
Speaker 3: talking about how they just want to be released from
Speaker 3: this nightmare that they've been trapped in for the six
Speaker 3: weeks that that show has been on.
Speaker 2: I think that's how people feel about Married at First
Speaker 2: Sight too. It gets this choke hold and this investment
Speaker 2: that it's like, it's like the sunk cost fallacy in
Speaker 2: that I've invested twelve weeks. I must persevere for the
Speaker 2: next four even though this show makes me angry.
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to I'm packing a minute the psychology
Speaker 3: of hate watching, because there's actually six different reasons why
Speaker 3: we do it. But the other thing that happened this
Speaker 3: week is a new episode Evan, just like that dropped.
Speaker 3: It was a whole thing. There was karaoke. There was
Speaker 3: also a lot of conversation about how the writers killed
Speaker 3: one main character's father twice and just forgot.
Speaker 1: Every episode of that show feels to me like a
Speaker 1: whole day, like eight hours if they do feel very
Speaker 1: very long and look.
Speaker 2: As someone who has done scriptwriting, I am currently on
Speaker 2: like my twenty eighth draft, how it gets through of
Speaker 2: one episode of you never do more drafts, How it
Speaker 2: gets through all those that you kill someone's dad twice, not.
Speaker 3: Remembering I was reading actually a think piece about and
Speaker 3: just like that this week that really summed it up.
Speaker 3: It said, there is comfort in knowing that I'm not
Speaker 3: alone in terms of why this person hate watches it.
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who is watching this thing earnestly.
Speaker 3: We're all in the same sinking shit, mourning what this
Speaker 3: show could have been, but gripped by the slow motion.
Speaker 1: Spectacle all Jack and Rose.
Speaker 3: We're still hoping that Carrie and company will jump onto
Speaker 3: a life boat. For now, she's listlessly stumbling around a
Speaker 3: mansion in the ugliest heart you've ever seen. I hate it.
Speaker 3: I'll watch one hundred episodes of it. I want to
Speaker 3: ask you, guys, which shows you hate watched in your time?
Speaker 3: And there's also a list of some of the most
Speaker 3: hate watch shows.
Speaker 2: My hate watch show is one of the most hate
Speaker 2: watch shows. Which is selling Sunset? Like, I know that
Speaker 2: they're all deeply irritated.
Speaker 1: How have we never bonded over this?
Speaker 2: Do you watch it too?
Speaker 1: I love?
Speaker 3: I want to interrupt you there, because we need to
Speaker 3: make a distinction between a guilty pleasure show and a
Speaker 3: hate watch Okay, okay, because I think maybe a guilty
Speaker 3: pleasure show might be selling Sunset, certainly for you Amelia,
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, Jesse. So hate watches don't
Speaker 3: like the show, but they enjoy the act of disliking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is actually different.
Speaker 3: Guilty pleasure watches do like the show but feel uneasy
Speaker 3: admitting it, yes, because they think it's a bit embarrassed.
Speaker 1: Can I posit a case study here, which isn't just
Speaker 1: like that I love sex and the city I hate
Speaker 1: and just like that, I will watch on just like
Speaker 1: that for as many seasons as they make it.
Speaker 2: And to the streamer does it matter? Like a click
Speaker 2: is a clicker plays a play?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: The most sort of obvious example of this is Emily
Speaker 2: in Paris. Right, that's where hate watching really became popularized,
Speaker 2: because they're like, this is the biggest show ever, like
Speaker 2: it's so big on Netflix. But also everyone universally knows this.
Speaker 1: Okay, but do we need a third category? Is Emily
Speaker 1: in Paris? Second screen watch Are people watching that actively
Speaker 1: hating it? Or are they watching an absent mind.
Speaker 3: Actively hating it?
Speaker 2: Okay, so my sister Claire is she almost exclusively hate
Speaker 2: watches like, I don't even know if she knows how
Speaker 2: to authentically enjoy anything anymore, and she'll watch any show
Speaker 2: that's really bad. She's like, yes, I've watched fourteen episodes
Speaker 2: of it. She also watched The Bold Type. The more
Speaker 2: irritating it got, the more into it she got.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the bold Type never got irritating, but we
Speaker 1: can take that up with the dot com loved it.
Speaker 3: Let's quickly name a few more of the hate watch shows,
Speaker 3: and then I'm gonna explain to you the different types
Speaker 3: of hate watching. Selling Sunset is here, Thirteen reasons why,
Speaker 3: Pretty Little Liars, Gray's Anatomy controversial.
Speaker 2: You're four out? I hate watch that for a while.
Speaker 3: The Idol remember the idol that was?
Speaker 1: That's a classic hate watch.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Real Housewives franchise, although for some people that's
Speaker 3: a guilty pleasure, for others it's a hate watch. Keeping
Speaker 3: up with the Kardashians and all forms of Kardashian show.
Speaker 3: The number of reasons why. The first reason people hate
Speaker 3: watch social and community bonding. Oh yes, so Amelia and
Speaker 3: I are on all the Reddit threads for and just
Speaker 3: like that, and it's full of people who love that show.
Speaker 3: Love the world of that show and the characters, but
Speaker 3: are so upset about what it's become. So I think,
Speaker 3: and you feel like you're part of something. Like every
Speaker 3: Friday when the episode drops, Amelia and I run to
Speaker 3: Reddit to commune without people.
Speaker 2: What hate watching does that like watching doesn't is it's
Speaker 2: so funny. It's like the commentary is actually funny.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so funny. I was reading one of my
Speaker 1: and just like that hate Watch throats the other day
Speaker 1: at the hairdresser, I started cackling so much. At the
Speaker 1: hairdresser I had to tell me to just stop laughing
Speaker 1: because she was my hair wrong.
Speaker 2: You feel so seen. Like the commentary around Severance, which
Speaker 2: I loved, was great, but it wasn't funny. I didn't
Speaker 2: feel as much a part of the community.
Speaker 3: People are very invested and they have very strong feelings. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like I read one that made me laugh out loud
Speaker 3: today that I sent Amelia that was a picture of
Speaker 3: Miranda and Steve and it said I feel very hurt
Speaker 3: and upset that Miranda broke up with Still Okay, So
Speaker 3: I'm going to jump to another one, which is nostalgia
Speaker 3: and self reflection. And this is also a bit of
Speaker 3: a reason for us or for me watching, and just
Speaker 3: like that, we stick with shows that we once enjoyed
Speaker 3: because they're tied to comfort and rituals and memories, even
Speaker 3: if they've gone off the rails. Yes, yes, so it's
Speaker 3: like comfort food but also horror.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I do is and this is
Speaker 1: sick and depraved, But sometimes I watch and just like that,
Speaker 1: and then I chase it with a Sex and the
Speaker 1: City season six episode.
Speaker 3: Feeds you struggle. There's a reason because it ends you
Speaker 3: get to the love episode and then it feeds you
Speaker 3: you might like to watch next. Yeah, Sex and the City. Yeah, which,
Speaker 3: you're right, it's almost like too cruel. The comparison. Another
Speaker 3: one is social comparison. So you know, they say comparison
Speaker 3: is the thief of joy, but only if you're comparing
Speaker 3: yourself to someone who's better than you. When you're watching
Speaker 3: flawed characters or.
Speaker 2: Annoying characters and you're like, I'm not that annoying.
Speaker 3: You feel better about yourself?
Speaker 1: Yes, When Carrie interrupts someone for the m time to
Speaker 1: tell them more about her own feelings, I do feel better.
Speaker 3: Then there's of course curiosity and shardenfreuder, which is being
Speaker 3: happy when bad things happen to someone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the most compelling reasons I read was there
Speaker 1: was a twenty twenty two research study done which I
Speaker 1: just I can do this. I volunteer as tribute to
Speaker 1: be involved in the next hate watch study. It was
Speaker 1: called the Psychology of Hate in the European Journal of
Speaker 1: Social Psychology, so you know, it's real. And they made
Speaker 1: a great point. They said that we hate watch because
Speaker 1: we experience emotions that we want to feel, and that
Speaker 1: makes us happier. So on a Friday night, maybe I
Speaker 1: want to wallow a bit, Maybe I want to sort
Speaker 1: of like feel a little bit reflective about the week
Speaker 1: that's been.
Speaker 3: You're right about that, because another reason listed here is
Speaker 3: the expression of negative emotions. It's a very safe way
Speaker 3: to vent irritation and dissatisfaction. It's also very low stakes.
Speaker 3: So there are terrible things going on in the world,
Speaker 3: but I can obsess over the hat carries.
Speaker 2: Wearing, and sometimes I just want to feel something. So
Speaker 2: what people won't watch is something that they feel entirely
Speaker 2: indifferent towards, but loving and hating like there is something great.
Speaker 2: You know how nothing bonds people more than an irritating coworker,
Speaker 2: and it like brings everyone together and there's a real
Speaker 2: sense of camaraderie. That's me and yeah, exactly. The reason
Speaker 2: that solitary confinement is torture is because you have no
Speaker 2: one to confirm your own reality with. And I think
Speaker 2: hate watching is the equivalent of like turning to people
Speaker 2: either side and being like, can we just confirm that
Speaker 2: this reality? And it makes us feel totally sane. My
Speaker 2: worry is that is it just normalizing meanness, like, because
Speaker 2: the snark which inevitably comes from this does start to
Speaker 2: kind of infiltrate, Like you hate watch someone on social media,
Speaker 2: you leave a comment, you set up a thread somewhere, you.
Speaker 3: Do feel a bit dirty at the end. Remember when
Speaker 3: you set up a Facebook group maths loles, Yes to
Speaker 3: loll about maths, but it's sort of deteriorated, and you
Speaker 3: ended up having to go quite hard.
Speaker 1: Did it deteriorate?
Speaker 2: Because everyone? I was like, guys, there are rules. We're
Speaker 2: not being mean about the people. We're not calling someone ugly.
Speaker 3: That's not fun.
Speaker 2: It's not fun to call someone ugly. What we're doing
Speaker 2: is we are making fun of the concept. And people
Speaker 2: couldn't they were like putting in the gossip and I
Speaker 2: was like, less gossip, more lolls.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that's another important distinction between just being a
Speaker 3: c word and hate watching something. You're almost incensed that
Speaker 3: it had so much potential and isn't better. So another
Speaker 3: important criteria is that it has to have ambition. It's
Speaker 3: not fun to hate watch something that's just sort of
Speaker 3: low budget and nouinely crap. It's got to be trying,
Speaker 3: which is almost a bit sad, but it's also got
Speaker 3: to have high production values.
Speaker 2: But I would say, and I think that this speaks
Speaker 2: to one of your points about like deep human emotion
Speaker 2: and also community, is that this is not a new phenomenon.
Speaker 2: Like I suppose hate watching has probably grown since it
Speaker 2: is bizarre that we could watch anything ever created and
Speaker 2: we choose to watch something.
Speaker 3: We are living in the golden era of TV, right.
Speaker 3: The Emmys have shown there's never been more shows, never
Speaker 3: been better shows. So that's why it was interesting to
Speaker 3: look at the psychological reasons, because why do we choose
Speaker 3: to spend hours and hours of our one precious life. Yeah,
Speaker 3: watching things that annoy us.
Speaker 1: But I think it is a new phenomenon. Jesse It
Speaker 1: turns out that the idea dates back to two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, which is relatively recently, and it coincides with
Speaker 1: the rise of streaming services and the idea that you
Speaker 1: can choose whatever you want to watch. Now, my question
Speaker 1: is why, as you say, when we can choose what
Speaker 1: we want to watch, why are we moving towards things
Speaker 1: we don't like.
Speaker 2: I think that it's cathartic, and I keep thinking. My
Speaker 2: mum always says that her like her memory of her
Speaker 2: dad is standing in the kitchen putting on this radio
Speaker 2: station he hated because they were super conservative and he
Speaker 2: was the opposite politically. He'd put it on and yell
Speaker 2: at it all day. That was his like. He didn't
Speaker 2: lose it in his family because he was too busy
Speaker 2: losing it at the guy on the radio. So I
Speaker 2: think that the idea that we might tune in to
Speaker 2: things that aggravate.
Speaker 3: Us is I was really push our buttons.
Speaker 2: The push our buttons, like those things in our brain
Speaker 2: are very very close, and I think there's something relieving
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: Maya, I've never asked you this, why do you hate watching?
Speaker 1: Just like that?
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about it. I think for me,
Speaker 3: I was so glad that when I started looking into
Speaker 3: these reasons. For me, it's nostalgia and self reflection. So
Speaker 3: the reason we all say I can't believe what they've
Speaker 3: done to this show, I can't believe these characters, but
Speaker 3: I will still go back again and again and again
Speaker 3: because of them. I have such a nostalgia for them.
Speaker 3: They feel so comfortable, and I keep having such great
Speaker 3: hope that they will return to their former glory.
Speaker 2: And it's why people will watch reboots no matter how
Speaker 2: bad the reboot is. It's like and then they'll shit
Speaker 2: on the reboot and then they'll be really funny recap
Speaker 2: of it. But it's like I was just happy to
Speaker 2: spend time with them.
Speaker 1: After the break, I'm going to explain why the name
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein is once again back in the news and
Speaker 1: how his connection to Trump is suddenly looking very dangerous
Speaker 1: for the president.
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of MUMMYA
Speaker 2: out Loud Just for MUMMYA subscribers, follow the link in
Speaker 2: the show notes to get your daily dose of out
Speaker 2: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: You may be wondering why the name Jeffrey Epstein is
Speaker 1: back in the news six years after he died in custody.
Speaker 2: I keep saying that with a connection to Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: and I have questions.
Speaker 1: Before I tell you the answer, I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you a quick reminder of who he is. Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 1: was a convicted sex offender. His criminal activities involved the
Speaker 1: sexual abuse and the trafficking of underage girls, and then
Speaker 1: he suicided in New York prison in twenty nineteen while
Speaker 1: waiting trial.
Speaker 2: Speaking of true crime conversations, I did one about Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2: It was one of those things that from the outside
Speaker 2: I found it was too weedy, And then I sat
Speaker 2: down with this expert about Jeffrey Epstein and it was
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting bamboozling, Like, there are so
Speaker 2: many questions about how that man had access to the
Speaker 2: materials to end his own life in such a sort
Speaker 2: of maximum security prison, right, That's like one of the
Speaker 2: biggest questions.
Speaker 3: He was already under suicide watch, wasn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was arguably the most high profile person in
Speaker 1: American prisons at that time. I'm going to get to
Speaker 1: that because there's a video that's been released with a
Speaker 1: missing minute, which has a lot of people asking questions
Speaker 1: about why he was allowed to suicide. But before that,
Speaker 1: I want to explain why his fate has been tied
Speaker 1: up with Trump's political fortunes, because so.
Speaker 3: He's the one, and that it has already brought Prince
Speaker 3: Andrew down exactly.
Speaker 1: Yes, Trump and Epstein's fortunes have always been very much intertwined,
Speaker 1: particularly Trump's presidential fortunes. Let me explain why. There was
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory that emerged in the mid twenty tens
Speaker 1: called the q and non conspiracy theory.
Speaker 3: I haven't heard about qnon for a long time.
Speaker 1: Let me refresh you on that. So QAnon was basically
Speaker 1: positing that Donald Trump is secretly leading a fight against
Speaker 1: a global sex trafficking ring. That's right, and that was
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, Peter Gate, Lilizard people, Yeah, pizzagates. So a
Speaker 1: man actually went to a pizza restaurant in Washington, DC,
Speaker 1: which is actually near where I used to live, and
Speaker 1: he took a gun with him because he was convinced
Speaker 1: that Hillary Clinton was running an underage sex trafficking ring
Speaker 1: from the basement of this pizza restaurant in Washington DC.
Speaker 1: Qan on is the reason why a lot of people
Speaker 1: latched onto Donald Trump, and the New York Times columnist
Speaker 1: Michelle Goldberg has a theory as to why. She says
Speaker 1: that Trump is so obviously personally degenerate that the Quan
Speaker 1: non theory enabled his supporters to feel that he was
Speaker 1: in fact fighting this grand, glorious fight against the most
Speaker 1: evil people in the world, right, people who are trafficking
Speaker 1: underage people.
Speaker 3: It allowed them to have this sort of cognitive dissonance
Speaker 3: that he's this awful person that talks about grabbing women
Speaker 3: by the pussy and says these horrible things, and it's
Speaker 3: such a misogynist.
Speaker 1: She has found viable for sexual stuff.
Speaker 3: Sexual assault, all these things.
Speaker 1: But somehow he emerges as a white knight through the
Speaker 1: q and non conspiracy, so.
Speaker 3: They can ignore all that because he create has a
Speaker 3: high purpose.
Speaker 1: Great exactly. And so that's why when Epstein was arrested
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen when Trump was president, for the sex
Speaker 1: trafficking of miners, this seemed to really confirm the theory.
Speaker 1: They said, Trump is doing exactly what we elected him
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 3: But wasn't he a mate of Epstein and well known
Speaker 3: to have gone either to the island or on the jet.
Speaker 3: I can't remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a couple of reasons why it's a bit
Speaker 1: weird that people think this. Among them, Epstein said that
Speaker 1: he was Trump's closest friend for ten years. No one
Speaker 1: else has ever even said they were Donald Trump's friend.
Speaker 1: The one person who has said has described themselves as
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's friend was Jeffrey Epstein. Also another thing that's
Speaker 1: weird is that Epstein this was not the first time
Speaker 1: that Epstein was arrested for the sex trafficking of miners.
Speaker 1: You might not know this, but back in two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine in Florida, he was arrested for soliciting prostitution
Speaker 1: from a minor, and he got no punishment for it.
Speaker 1: He was essentially able to walk free after pleading guilty.
Speaker 1: He was given thirteen months of what's called work release.
Speaker 1: What that meant was he got to hang around his
Speaker 1: Palm Beach mansion and basically live out the sentence there.
Speaker 1: You might ask, how did that come about? Well, the
Speaker 1: person who gave him that plea deal was a man
Speaker 1: named Alexander Acosta, who then went on to serve in
Speaker 1: Trump's first administration as his Secretary of Labor and then
Speaker 1: there's the question of the suicide, which you raised, Jesse.
Speaker 1: How does this man who the entire world was watching
Speaker 1: and waiting for his trial die by suicide in a
Speaker 1: federal prison run by Donald Trump's government. How does this happen?
Speaker 1: So there are a number of reasons why it's weird
Speaker 1: that people think that Trump was in fact out to
Speaker 1: sort of vanquish Epstein, but nonetheless their fortunes became intertwined.
Speaker 1: So the big thing.
Speaker 2: Now has been that didn't Trump say he would release
Speaker 2: the files? Because in the kind of public consciousness, there
Speaker 2: is a document somewhere that tells us because obviously, with
Speaker 2: Epstein died, all of his people that he could have outed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ring ye applies more than just Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 3: Yes, and Galline Maxwell, who was his fixer or co
Speaker 3: conspirator in anyway. She was convicted and she's serving time.
Speaker 3: She is the.
Speaker 1: Only person who has been actually held accountable for this
Speaker 1: sex trafficking ring that Epstein led. So it's interesting, Jesse,
Speaker 1: you just said, didn't he say during the campaign he'd
Speaker 1: released the files?
Speaker 3: What's in the files?
Speaker 1: So the files definitely exist. That's not a conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1: Anytime the government lunchers an investigation into someone and then
Speaker 1: arrest someone. They have case files, and so there is
Speaker 1: definitely a case file about Jeffrey Epstein, and that's what
Speaker 1: people want to have released. But I looked into this
Speaker 1: and I thought that too. It turns out that during
Speaker 1: the campaign, Trump only mentioned the Epstein files twice. In
Speaker 1: both instances, he was asked about them by right wing
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists who desperately wanted him to release the files,
Speaker 1: and on both occasions he was very hesitant, and then
Speaker 1: on the second occasion he said, I guess I would,
Speaker 1: but you don't want to affect people's lives if there's
Speaker 1: phony stuff in there. So the reason why we think
Speaker 1: that Trump was really pushing tor rease the files is
Speaker 1: not because Trump himself was. It's because everyone around him was.
Speaker 1: Because they're all members of the maga Qan non conspiracy pipeline,
Speaker 1: and they all think that Trump's going to finally reveal.
Speaker 2: This ring because they see Trump as sort of the
Speaker 2: anti political class he came in. That was his big appeal.
Speaker 3: Like I've trained this swarm.
Speaker 2: Remember that I read something in the BBC about an
Speaker 2: immigrant who is currently in IC detention saying I will
Speaker 2: support Trump until the day I died. And people are
Speaker 2: so connected to this mythology that it was this corrupt,
Speaker 2: disgusting government and Trump was going to come in, release
Speaker 2: all of the files and go, I'm the anti president,
Speaker 2: not just corrupt.
Speaker 1: Like keep in mind, if you thought that the whole
Speaker 1: government was a bunch of petophiles running an underage sex
Speaker 1: trafficking ring out of a pizza restaurant in Washington, DC,
Speaker 1: you'd feel pretty fired up too. Yes, And these supporters
Speaker 1: include JD. Vance, his vice president, and his now Attorney
Speaker 1: General Pam Bondie. Both these people are part of this
Speaker 1: genuine conspiracy belief that Trump is going to finally end
Speaker 1: the underage sex trafficking.
Speaker 2: So I'm imagining that this file is in the top
Speaker 2: drawer of Trump's desk. Why is he not releasing it?
Speaker 1: Amelia So Pam Bondie who is his attorney general now,
Speaker 1: and yes it is pronounced Bondie, even though to Australian
Speaker 1: eyes every bond done di. She gets into office on
Speaker 1: her first date, she's in charge of all the nation's
Speaker 1: law enforcement and going after criminals, and she posts on
Speaker 1: social media, I've got the file and guess what includes
Speaker 1: the client list. It includes the list of all the rich,
Speaker 1: powerful men who Jeffrey Epstein was basically trafficking these girls too.
Speaker 3: She said, it's on my desk.
Speaker 1: She said, it's on my desk. Now, let's keep in
Speaker 1: mind government files are very, very long, very long. I'm
Speaker 1: sure we're talking actually probably boxes of information. It's not
Speaker 1: kind of like a one page TLDR. This is boxes
Speaker 1: of information. And she says, basically, I can't wait to
Speaker 1: release them to you. She messed up because basically then
Speaker 1: there was reporting that Trump was really angry at her
Speaker 1: for saying this, and now just last week, which is
Speaker 1: why we're all talking about it, her office says, no,
Speaker 1: there's no client list. It never existed.
Speaker 3: I misspoke.
Speaker 1: I misspoke. And also her department said no further disclosure
Speaker 1: would be appropriate or warranted in the Epstein CASEGA is pissed.
Speaker 1: You have never seen them this angry before. We are
Speaker 1: talking Steve Bannon, Tucker Carson, Megan Kelly, all of the
Speaker 1: biggest MAGA proponents are so angry at him.
Speaker 2: So if I put my conspiracy hat on just for
Speaker 2: a moment, please, I'm thinking that Trump's on page three,
Speaker 2: like I'm thinking that she was looking at it, going
Speaker 2: I'm going to release this, and then it's like, oh wait,
Speaker 2: this is damning to the president. Like I'm thinking Trump's
Speaker 2: in there. Is that a fair enough thing?
Speaker 3: But I feel like this is why Amelia and I
Speaker 3: keep arguing about this. She keeps saying this is gonna
Speaker 3: split Maga, this could take him down, and I'm just like,
Speaker 3: nothing has taken him down. Yeah, he's teflon, like as
Speaker 3: he himself said, I could shoot someone in the middle
Speaker 3: of Fifth Avenue and they'd still vote for me, and
Speaker 3: they have. So he's been found liable for sexual assault.
Speaker 3: He said I'll build the wall and he didn't. He
Speaker 3: said I'll do this and he didn't.
Speaker 2: Like they don't if he's had of the if he's
Speaker 2: part of the ring that he set himself up against,
Speaker 2: I feel like this would be the final straw for Maga.
Speaker 1: Who We're like, it's not even about him being part
Speaker 1: of the ring. They haven't even gotten there in their minds.
Speaker 1: They haven't even considered that he's part of the ring.
Speaker 1: Before we get to why, I just want to play
Speaker 1: a clip because it shows how weird Trump is being
Speaker 1: about this whole thing.
Speaker 4: Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein. This guy's been
Speaker 4: talked about for years. You're asking, we have Texas, we
Speaker 4: have this, we have all of the things, and are
Speaker 4: people still talking about this guy? This crip that is unbelievable.
Speaker 3: This is the man that still talks about Hillary Clinton's emails.
Speaker 1: So he did actually say last week that Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: and Barack Obama wrote the Epstein file, just so you know,
Speaker 1: and he got badly ratioed for that on his own
Speaker 1: social media platform, which is called truth Social. So the
Speaker 1: reason why people care is not because they think or
Speaker 1: even have pondered the possibility that Trump is on the
Speaker 1: client list. They care because Trump was the person who
Speaker 1: was meant to reveal this underage sex trafficking ring once
Speaker 1: and for all, and he's not doing it.
Speaker 3: Why you think maybe he's not?
Speaker 2: Yeah, why do you think he won't released?
Speaker 1: Because I think he's on the list. That's pretty simple, now, Nia,
Speaker 1: you have also sort of gotten frustrated with me because
Speaker 1: you've said this has happened before, You've said it's not
Speaker 1: gonna work. No one's gonna care.
Speaker 3: They honestly do not care what this man does. It
Speaker 3: makes them. But I want to look at the woman
Speaker 3: in eyes to tension going. I love him so okay.
Speaker 1: But Candace Owens, who is one of the worst conspiracy theorists,
Speaker 1: friend of Canker, friend of Kanye, anti.
Speaker 2: Vaxa not allowed in our country.
Speaker 1: Her big crusade is that French President Emmanuel mccron's wife
Speaker 1: is a man. Yeah, that's her like biggest crusade in
Speaker 1: life other than underage sex trafficking ring. She has just
Speaker 1: said of Trump, like in the last couple of days,
Speaker 1: I feel like Trump thinks his base is stupid. You
Speaker 1: the shark. She said that she is so angry.
Speaker 2: He's portrayed his bass in a way that like is
Speaker 2: different to what he's done.
Speaker 3: Back There's also he has contempt for his base.
Speaker 1: This is a classic I didn't think the leopard would
Speaker 1: eat my face situation. Because these conspiracy theorists are also
Speaker 1: really mad about a video that was released, So back
Speaker 1: to the suicide idea. Pam Bondi's office does release a
Speaker 1: video ten hours of footage from the communal area of
Speaker 1: the prison where Epstein was being held where he suicided,
Speaker 1: to show that nothing untoward was happening that night. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: there's a missing minute. There's just one minute in the
Speaker 1: video where there's no video.
Speaker 2: So how do we not all become conspiracy theorists about
Speaker 2: this because some conspiracy theory about this is gonna be
Speaker 2: true because it's so bizarre that there is such a
Speaker 2: cover up with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff.
Speaker 1: The cover up here, unfortunately in the sense that I
Speaker 1: sound like a q and non person, the cover up
Speaker 1: is huge. What we know is there were two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty so called messuses working for Epstein. Now I
Speaker 1: don't know if all two hundred and fifty of them
Speaker 1: were under a but that's two hundred and fifty girls
Speaker 1: or women who were working for Epstein on what we
Speaker 1: know to be a massive sex trafficking ring. Can you
Speaker 1: imagine how many men were involved in this. We also
Speaker 1: know plenty of rich and powerful men have at least
Speaker 1: flown on Epstein's private plane. That is also no one
Speaker 1: and out there Clinton, including Bill Clinton, and including Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and get The only person doing time for this
Speaker 1: whole thing is Jesselen Maxwell, a woman. It's interesting.
Speaker 2: Look, friends, we've covered some it's been.
Speaker 3: Our true crime episode. Really today I think.
Speaker 2: It has we turned into a true crime podcast.
Speaker 3: I didn't hate it.
Speaker 2: I didn't hate it at all.
Speaker 3: I did a little listening, which is good given the
Speaker 3: state of.
Speaker 2: My voice, but just to add some light to the shade.
Speaker 2: Has anyone else found, particularly in the last few weeks,
Speaker 2: that you're having issues with your muscaa? Has anyone found this?
Speaker 1: Sorry?
Speaker 4: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Every time I've gone to put on mascara in the
Speaker 2: last few weeks, very very clumpy, right, I'm having issues?
Speaker 1: Is that a weather thing?
Speaker 2: It's a weather thin thank you, Amelia, so Grayla.
Speaker 3: Just you look a little clumpy now that you point
Speaker 3: it out.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, but not in like a sexy French bomb
Speaker 1: show a clumpy way, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 2: Okay, so what happens in winter? I forgot this because
Speaker 2: as a millennial, I spent ten years watching beauty YouTube videos,
Speaker 2: and I have remembered a fun fact that I think
Speaker 2: every woman needs to remember right now, which is, if
Speaker 2: your muscara is getting clumpy and you think you need
Speaker 2: a new one, you've got to put your muscara in
Speaker 2: some hot water, right what? Yes? And this is the
Speaker 2: same with your eyeliner, with anything that's gotten a little
Speaker 2: bit clumpy. I googled this, solen a clumpy No, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: So I'm imagining my I have a pot of eyeliner
Speaker 2: and in winter, what will happen is it will kind
Speaker 2: of like solidify.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 2: Yes, so what you need to do is, yes, close it.
Speaker 2: If you have an eyeshadow like that. Sometimes you could
Speaker 2: add some water to it, yes, I think you can.
Speaker 2: But anyway you can close it, get a little thing even,
Speaker 2: just put it in your sink with some more watar,
Speaker 2: leave it there for a little while and closed, and
Speaker 2: it'll unclump and then when you go to put your
Speaker 2: muskara on, it will be all like fresh and like
Speaker 2: not clumpy again.
Speaker 1: And maybe you can multitask and clean your brushes at
Speaker 1: the same time.
Speaker 2: You can, And that reminds me with your before when
Speaker 2: you were curling your lashes. You should always heat it up.
Speaker 2: You should always have it.
Speaker 3: I know, I know, but firstly, I don't have a
Speaker 3: hair dryer with me in the studio. And secondly, I
Speaker 3: used to be a mad eyelash curler. I used to
Speaker 3: be able to do it while I was driving. Don't
Speaker 3: try this at home, Yeah, probably lose points for real license. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but I was very good at it. I didn't need
Speaker 3: a mirror. I was amazing. I used to like, if
Speaker 3: I went out for dinner, I would take it. I
Speaker 3: would curl my lashes all the time. Then, for like
Speaker 3: I don't know, twenty years, I stopped. Now I'm starting again.
Speaker 3: I've hardly got any eyelashes left. But I did burn
Speaker 3: myself a few times on the eyelid because I made
Speaker 3: it too hot, and then I didn't wait for it
Speaker 3: to cool down.
Speaker 2: Oh see, I put mine under warm water for a
Speaker 2: little bit so it's not too hot. And then and
Speaker 2: then I.
Speaker 1: Co movement Chessie. I think when I curl my lashes,
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is the most organized day will be
Speaker 1: all of today.
Speaker 2: I'm not totally convinced. As someone who curls my lashes
Speaker 2: those days, I'm not convinced it makes any difference. I
Speaker 2: think it's just something I do as part of the product.
Speaker 3: I think it does. You've got beautiful ashes, though you've
Speaker 3: got long.
Speaker 2: Little clumpy today, but they won't be tomorrow. So I
Speaker 2: was talking to producer Ruth about this earlier, and she's
Speaker 2: very wise, and she's also like some out louders, they
Speaker 2: don't have the time, they don't have the commitment to
Speaker 2: be putting something that might not be near a tap.
Speaker 2: They might not be near a tap. Such a good point.
Speaker 2: May well, here's a hack. You start doing your makeup
Speaker 2: at the beginning. You put your masca in your bra.
Speaker 2: You put it between your thighs. Oh, you put it
Speaker 2: under your sweaty arm pit.
Speaker 3: Oh, you put it.
Speaker 2: I don't think that gynecologists will. They could be bai.
Speaker 3: Don't do that.
Speaker 2: So put it somewhere warm that isn't internal, and then
Speaker 2: you take it out and boom, ready to go. A
Speaker 2: big thank you to all of you the out louders
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show, and our fabulous team for
Speaker 2: putting this show together. We should say as well, we
Speaker 2: did a subscriber episode yesterday all about what on earth
Speaker 2: is going on with Justin Bieber if you like some
Speaker 2: of our explainers today. What we did is we sat
Speaker 2: and vernum down. We went, you're young, what's with the album?
Speaker 2: What's with Hailey Beab?
Speaker 1: She did give us the gens. Then she also gave
Speaker 1: us some great answer.
Speaker 2: She did she did. It was very very enlightening. You
Speaker 2: can listen to that now. It dropped yesterday and we
Speaker 2: will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go and have some lemon and honey tea.
Speaker 3: So I'm all good for Friday.
Speaker 2: Bye Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to
Speaker 3: do so. There is a link in the episode description