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Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Ama Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Welcome to the Quickie. I'm Claire Murphy. A

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Speaker 2: recent ABC four Corners report has left those who suffer

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Speaker 2: from endometriosis worried, scared, and rethinking every procedure they may

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Speaker 2: have had in order to diagnose and treat their conditions.

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Speaker 2: Today we speak to a patient of the prominent Melbourne

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Speaker 2: surgeon who's been accused of performing unnecessary and excessive surgeries

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Speaker 2: in the name of endo and what this revelation's done

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Speaker 2: to a community already fighting to be seen and taken seriously.

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Speaker 2: Before we do that, here's the letters from the Quickie Newsroom, Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: March fourth. Australia is being accused of dodging questions about

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Speaker 2: the legality of US Israeli strikes on Iran and ignoring

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Speaker 2: our role to help maintain world order. Australia was one

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Speaker 2: of the first countries to back the strikes by US

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Speaker 2: and Israeli forces on Iran at the weekend. Asked if

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Speaker 2: the strikes were legal, Prime Minister Anthony Alberzi, Foreign Minister

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Speaker 2: Penny Wong and Defense Minister Richard Miles each said it

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Speaker 2: was a question for the United States and Israel. Mister

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Speaker 2: Alberizi had said Iran's retaliation since the initial strikes showed

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Speaker 2: why it was a threat to peace and stability in

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Speaker 2: the region. United Nations Special Reporteur on Human Rights and

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Speaker 2: counter Terrorism Ben Saul said it was crystal clear the

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Speaker 2: US Israeli strikes were an illegal armed digression against Iran.

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Speaker 2: Professor Saul rejected arguments the strikes could be justified as

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Speaker 2: preemptive self defense aimed at preventing Iran from developing or

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Speaker 2: using nuclear weapons, saying Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon,

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Speaker 2: hasn't taken the decision to build one, and hasn't ordered

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Speaker 2: that one is about to be used. He continued saying

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Speaker 2: these aren't acts in self defense because Iran has not

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Speaker 2: attacked either country and is not about to imminently attack them,

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Speaker 2: and the Security Council hasn't given any authorization. He called

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Speaker 2: on Middle Powers like Australia to stand up for international law.

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Speaker 2: The UN says the bombing of an Iranian school on

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Speaker 2: the first day of US and Israeli attacks must be

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Speaker 2: investigated as a possible war crime. The girls' school in

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Speaker 2: southern Iran was hit on Saturday. Iran's ambassador to the

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Speaker 2: UN in Geneva, Ali Baharini, saying the attack had killed

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty students. UN Human Rights off As

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Speaker 2: spokesperson Ravenna Shamdasani said the High Commissioner calls for a prompt,

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Speaker 2: impartial and thorough investigation into the circumstances of the attack.

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Speaker 2: The onus is on the forces that carried out the

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Speaker 2: attack to investigate it. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said

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Speaker 2: on Monday that US forces would not deliberately target a school.

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Speaker 2: Israel has said it is investigating the incident. Meanwhile, overnight,

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Speaker 2: Israel has moved ground troops to the border with Lebanon,

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Speaker 2: calling it a preemptive move against any potential attack from

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Speaker 2: Hesbalal fighters. The IDF also posted on social media that

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Speaker 2: they had struck the Iranian presidential office, calling the location

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Speaker 2: the regime's most central and significant headquarters. U S President

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump has also said that diplomatic avenues to resolve

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Speaker 2: the military action in Iran are now no longer an option,

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Speaker 2: Trump posting to his social media that their Air Defense,

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Speaker 2: Air Force, Navy and leadership is gone. They wanted to talk,

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Speaker 2: I said too late. The Kyle Sandalans and Jackie o'

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Speaker 2: show is no more Jackie Henderson, pulling the plug on

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Speaker 2: her nearly three decade partnership with her co host. Late

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Speaker 2: last week, Henderson walked out on the Pairs Live radio

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Speaker 2: show after Sandalands accused her of being away with the fairies,

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Speaker 2: referring to her interest in star charts, telling her she

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Speaker 2: lacked professionalism and that everyone in the building had mentioned it. Henderson,

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Speaker 2: who has returned to the show after many a bust

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Speaker 2: up with Sandalan's, did not return this week, and last

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Speaker 2: night news came that, after twenty seven years together, she

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Speaker 2: could no longer work with Sandalans, telling her radio bosses

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Speaker 2: that she no longer felt safe at work. The leadership

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Speaker 2: at ARN, the company who owns the radio network the

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Speaker 2: pair work for, announced they were dissolving Henderson's contract, worth

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Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars over ten years, offering her another show,

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Speaker 2: and placing Sandalans and their Sydney breakfast show on hiatus.

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Speaker 2: Fans of Zendai and Tom Hollander claiming they've seen the

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Speaker 2: closest will probably get to, confirming that the pair have

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Speaker 2: already gotten married.

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Speaker 1: Law Roach.

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Speaker 2: Zendaya's longtime stylist was on a red carpet this week

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Speaker 2: when he told reporters they'd already missed the wedding because

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Speaker 2: it had already happened now. Claire Stormer Zendea's mum reposted

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Speaker 2: the clip of wrote on her Instagram, simply saying the

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Speaker 2: laugh with a laughing emoji. Does that mean the couple

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Speaker 2: have tied the knot? Who knows, but we do know

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Speaker 2: the notoriously private pair are unlikely to reveal the info themselves.

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Speaker 2: Family Planning, the organization that brought the contraceptive pill to

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Speaker 2: Australia in the nineteen sixties, is celebrating one hundred years today.

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Speaker 2: Family Planning opened its doors to Australian women in nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty six and launched the country's first birth control clinic

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty three, bringing the pill to Australia in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty one. In the nineteen seventies, they started making

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Speaker 2: it available to all women, regardless of whether they were

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Speaker 2: married or not or had their husband's permission, something it

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Speaker 2: would take decades for legislation to catch up with noted

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Speaker 2: activists and women's campaigner When d McCarthy, who was the

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Speaker 2: organization's first professional media, information and education officer, after being

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Speaker 2: elected to the board in nineteen seventy five, says she's

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Speaker 2: proud of what they did and still do for the

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Speaker 2: women of Australia.

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Speaker 3: Since opening its doors in nineteen twenty six, Family Planning

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Speaker 3: Australia has been at the forefront of our nations journey

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Speaker 3: intersexual health, women's rights and reproductive education. Family Planning was

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Speaker 3: and still is the crucial place you go to for

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Speaker 3: trust and advice. It has survived for one hundred years

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Speaker 3: because it has always brought crucial services to women, often

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Speaker 3: at times when there were simply nothing else.

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Speaker 2: Romanticy fans are on the edge of their seats with

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Speaker 2: the announcement that the author of one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: series in the genre in recent times is about to

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Speaker 2: appear on the Call Her Daddy podcast. A Court of

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Speaker 2: Thorns and Roses. Writer Sarah J. Mosse will sit down

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Speaker 2: in an interview with host Alex Cooper. But what has

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Speaker 2: got many fans of the author wondering if there's more

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Speaker 2: than a chat to be had is that her publisher,

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Speaker 2: Bloomsbury has followed Call Her Daddy on Instagram, making men

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Speaker 2: believe an announcement about the sixth book in the series

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Speaker 2: is about to happen. Speculation amongst romanticy fans scouring back

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Speaker 2: through previous releases in the series, noted that when book

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Speaker 2: three was announced in March, it came out in January

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Speaker 2: the next year, leading some to believe that Akatar six

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Speaker 2: will be released in January twenty twenty seven. That's what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the world today. Next, how we meant to

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Speaker 2: feel about endo treatment after a doctor is accused of

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Speaker 2: going too far in a world where we're often told

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Speaker 2: they won't go far enough. A recent four Corners report

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Speaker 2: revealed allegations against Melbourne's surgeon Simon Gordon, claiming women were

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Speaker 2: subjected to unwanted and unnecessary surgeries removing the ovaries and

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Speaker 2: uteruses of patients whose pathology sometimes showed little or no

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Speaker 2: trace of endometriosis.

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Speaker 4: I had both my ovaries when my uterus were removed

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Speaker 4: both Simon Gordon by the time I was twenty five.

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Speaker 5: Dr Gordon wrote what he found after the first opera

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Speaker 5: was entirely consistent with endometriosis, but the pathology found no

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Speaker 5: evidence of endometriosis.

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Speaker 4: It's devastating. He's taken the trust of a young, vulnerable

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Speaker 4: woman and completely betrayed it.

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Speaker 2: Gordon abruptly retired back in November after being asked to

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Speaker 2: go on leave by Epworth Private Hospital in October twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. Before that, though, he was one of the

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Speaker 2: busiest laparoscopic surgeons in Victoria, more than doubling the output

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Speaker 2: of the next busiest surgeon at the hospital where he worked.

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Speaker 2: Being that busy means there are hundreds, if not thousands,

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Speaker 2: of people who've had procedures performed by this doctor who

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Speaker 2: are now wondering if they too had parts of them

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Speaker 2: removed unnecessarily. We've been told consistently that the gold standard

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Speaker 2: for diagnosing and treating endometriosis is surgery, women taking time

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Speaker 2: from their careers, lives, and families to undergo procedures that

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Speaker 2: can be painful, that can be a relief, and that

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Speaker 2: can also change their paths to fertility for the better

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Speaker 2: or in some cases the worse. Of course, any doctor

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Speaker 2: who is allegedly performing unnecessary procedures on clients, especially procedures

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Speaker 2: that can have long lasting, life changing impacts, should be

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Speaker 2: investigated and, if found to have done so, appropriately punished.

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Speaker 2: But the fallout from these revelations could be further reaching

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Speaker 2: than just one doctor's alleged improper treatment. It could impact

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Speaker 2: the way women seek help, or even whether they reach

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Speaker 2: out at all for endometriosis diagnosis and treatment. Joe Barry

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Speaker 2: was one of doctor Gordon's patients, her journey taking her

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Speaker 2: through IVF, multiple surgeries, bow resection, and eventually a radical

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Speaker 2: hysterectomy for her surgical menopause arrived overnight. She became biologically

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Speaker 2: unable to have children, something she says reshaped her life,

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Speaker 2: a loss that took years to fully metabolize. She says

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Speaker 2: it also took years to rebuild strength, years to feel

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Speaker 2: steady in her own body again. Joe, what were your

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Speaker 2: first reactions and thoughts when the Four Corners documentary aired?

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Speaker 1: Watching Four Corners, it was it was really confronting. I

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Speaker 1: sat there holding my partner's hand, and I guess I

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Speaker 1: felt overwhelmed, like my whole body was reacting and my

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Speaker 1: whole body was overwhelmed. When someone's involved in your care

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Speaker 1: and they've become I guess they become the news story

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Speaker 1: of the week. It lands in your body, so it's

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Speaker 1: not just news, it's personal, and you can't help but

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Speaker 1: to start replaying all of your medical history and for me,

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Speaker 1: that's that's quite painful.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to ask you to go into your

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Speaker 2: full in depth medical background with this particular doctor, but

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Speaker 2: can you give us an overview of what your surgical

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Speaker 2: history has been. Yes, I've had seven different surgeries for

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Speaker 2: ENDO with different surgeons. So they are lap surgery, so

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Speaker 2: they've gone in and cut out different elements. So you know,

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Speaker 2: one surgery I lost in an ovary, another surgery of

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Speaker 2: lupian shoe, but it kind of just progressed a lot

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Speaker 2: twenty seven meters about so they were very extensive, complex

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Speaker 2: surgeries and over a number of years. Now, this is

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Speaker 2: something that's come up a fair bit in the wake

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Speaker 2: of the Four Corners report is that some people have

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Speaker 2: then found out from their pathology results that maybe there

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Speaker 2: was no endometriosis and maybe a surgery was unnecessary. But

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Speaker 2: is that routine practice for you? You've had seven surgeries,

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Speaker 2: do you then request to see the pathology results afterwards,

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Speaker 2: or are you told about your pathology in the wake

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Speaker 2: of those After.

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Speaker 1: Watching Four Corners, I did request my full pathology in history.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to get all the facts on the

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Speaker 1: table so I could see them. Those records did confirm

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Speaker 1: my disease. It was severe. I was very unwell at

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Speaker 1: the time, so I guess I'm not trying to focus

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Speaker 1: on that past. I'm just now looking at how the

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Speaker 1: system moves forward.

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Speaker 2: So I guess feeling the need to get that pathology

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Speaker 2: results is the direct response of seeing that four Corners report.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel very relieved to see that those surgeries

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Speaker 2: would quote unquote necessary for your treatment?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I felt relieved to know that it

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Speaker 1: was the right course of action, And to be honest,

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Speaker 1: I probably didn't doubt it in my case because I

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Speaker 1: was so unwell, and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: I chose health, so I chose my life. I needed

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Speaker 1: those surgeries. I needed to get back to a normal

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Speaker 1: state of living. Right now, everyone's kind of questioning their

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Speaker 1: medical history, and I do hope that if people are unsure,

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Speaker 1: they feel like they can get clarity. They can go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital and get their medical records, or they

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Speaker 1: can seek a second opinion, because that's really important. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, I don't think decisions should be

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Speaker 1: grounded in the news. It should be from these facts,

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Speaker 1: not the headlines.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the sticking point, right is when sometimes

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Speaker 2: with ENDO, And this is something that I've spoken to

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Speaker 2: experts about. Sometimes women can be experiencing excruciating pain and

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Speaker 2: yet they can have very little endometriosis or even undetaed endometriosis.

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Speaker 2: And then some women present with lesions everywhere and are

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Speaker 2: not experiencing the same level of pain. That it's a

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Speaker 2: very individual experience. So the understanding from what we take

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Speaker 2: from this four Corners report is that, yes, you're seeing

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Speaker 2: these headlines, and yes it can be a little bit confronting,

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Speaker 2: but in each case, especially with endometriosis, it's very individual, right,

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Speaker 2: So you can't say that their experience is going to

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Speaker 2: be anything similar to yours.

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Speaker 1: No, it's all very personal and individual. And I obviously

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Speaker 1: did have a very complex case and it was stage

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Speaker 1: four and it was everywhere, and I had immense pain.

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Speaker 1: That one of my girlfriends has ENDO stage four and

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Speaker 1: she is fine, she just lives a normal life. So

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Speaker 1: every single person is completely different. But aside from the pain,

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Speaker 1: there are other things that you need to consider of

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Speaker 1: how it's affecting your overall health, your fertility. So you

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Speaker 1: may have stage four and not be presenting with the

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Speaker 1: shocking pain that I was, but it can still also

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Speaker 1: be doing more damage to your body and your fertility.

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Speaker 1: So important that it's looked at correctly and properly investigated.

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Speaker 2: Joe, what's the fallout for the ENDO community for this.

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Speaker 2: We've seen things happen in women's healthcare like this before.

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Speaker 2: Just one example that kept popping up for me was

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Speaker 2: the HRT study linking it to breast cancer. That's all,

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Speaker 2: like an entire generation of women miss out on accessing

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Speaker 2: proper care for menopause. Could this potentially have implications like

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Speaker 2: that for the end of community.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I mean already you know people are questioning surgeries,

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Speaker 1: but we know that for advanced ENDO surgery is a

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Speaker 1: gold standard of treatment and for many women, me especially,

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Speaker 1: it was life changing. But I guess access to skilled

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Speaker 1: surgery matters. So for me, it's not whether surgery, I

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Speaker 1: guess it's good or bad. It's about seeing a proper

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Speaker 1: train specialists in ENDO, receiving informed consent, and having a

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Speaker 1: full team's input on the stages of your treatment. I

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Speaker 1: think that's what we should be looking at. I don't

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Speaker 1: think we should be, I guess, panicking at this point

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Speaker 1: and making it even harder for women to access We're

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Speaker 1: already finding it really hard to access treatment. We're finding

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Speaker 1: the system really hard to navigate. You know, we may

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Speaker 1: seven years the diagnosis and we're fighting to be believed.

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Speaker 1: And now we've got this idea that access to skill

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Speaker 1: surgery is going to be even more restricted, and that's

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Speaker 1: really scary for all of us.

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Speaker 2: I guess the potential fallout is that seven years to

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Speaker 2: be diagnosed could be even longer.

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Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, and you may not be able to get

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Speaker 1: the surgery you need because you know the guidelines are

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Speaker 1: going to get tighter and tighter, and that's really scary.

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Speaker 2: You've also said that endo suffers, whether they've had surgery

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Speaker 2: or not, might be feeling a mix of sadness and anger.

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Speaker 2: Why the sadness? What's the sad part of this?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. I think it's really weird because

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Speaker 1: we are feeling two things at once. So it's that

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Speaker 1: sadness because we're sad for the women affected by it,

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Speaker 1: but we're also sad at just what we've gone through.

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Speaker 1: It's an invisible to see, but it takes over your

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Speaker 1: life and it's really hard to now have this play

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Speaker 1: out in the media space and have everyone put their

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Speaker 1: two cents in it. It's typicult, and then there's this

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Speaker 1: fear in us because it's going to get even harder

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Speaker 1: to navigate if we have reforms that are reactive rather

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Speaker 1: than slowing it down and looking at the facts and

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Speaker 1: having smart, intelligent reforms that will actually help patients.

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Speaker 2: Is there another layer to that sadness that women who've

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Speaker 2: had extensive surgery for endometriosis may have also had to

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Speaker 2: face the fact that they may not be able to

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Speaker 2: bear their own children. Is that something that might be

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Speaker 2: resurfacing for people right now with all these headlines being made.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you're constantly scared when you are diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: endo of fertility. It's the first thing that comes to

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Speaker 1: your mind, of course it does. So the fact that

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Speaker 1: there may be delays in diagnosis, in treatment, and that

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Speaker 1: that could have implications for things like fertility is terrifying

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Speaker 1: for people. And we're already kind of I guess scanned

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Speaker 1: system because it's underfunded. Women's paying conditions are underfunded, they're

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Speaker 1: under research, they're often not believed or they're pushed down,

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Speaker 1: and so all of that together creates like a real

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Speaker 1: fear in us.

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Speaker 2: JO, what advice do you have for anyone who's mid diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: are about to receive treatment. With all these warring emotions,

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing a lot of women on TikTok and Instagram,

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Speaker 2: some who claim to be patients of the doctor and

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Speaker 2: question who are giving advice on how to get your

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Speaker 2: pathology results or you know what to look for when

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Speaker 2: you're looking for a medical professional. It seems like the

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Speaker 2: community is really like rallying around each other to give

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Speaker 2: advice that is absolutely practical and helpful.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the one beautiful thing with the Endo community.

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Speaker 1: We are very supportive, we're very vocal together because we

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Speaker 1: have been I guess a little bit forgotten for a

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Speaker 1: long time. The first thing I always do is I

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Speaker 1: get into forums or Facebook groups. There is the most

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Speaker 1: amazing women out there that are willing to help and

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Speaker 1: give advice. The second thing is you need to trust

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Speaker 1: your body. Like I think we we always downplay our

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Speaker 1: pain and we downplay what we're going through. But you

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Speaker 1: know your body. You know if something's not right, and

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Speaker 1: then dordly when you do go and try and get help,

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Speaker 1: advocate for yourself and your health matters, and if someone's

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Speaker 1: not listening to you, go somewhere else. Like you don't

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Speaker 1: need to sit there and listen to that. So I

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Speaker 1: think you have to kind of keep pushing, and I

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Speaker 1: guess that's sad in a way. You have to push

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Speaker 1: for answers, but it's just the reality of where we are.

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Speaker 1: You do have to, I guess, be a little bit

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Speaker 1: headstrong and trust your gut and just get the information

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Speaker 1: that you need.

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Speaker 2: The Victorian government has now referred the allegations against doctor

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Speaker 2: Gordon to police. Victorian Premier Justinto Alan also made a

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Speaker 2: statement saying, without commenting on the specific case, let me

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Speaker 2: be clear, she said, performing unnecessary surgery is a crime,

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Speaker 2: Removing women's organs without a clinical need is a crime,

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Speaker 2: and assisting in that conduct is a crime. Doctor Gordon

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Speaker 2: denies the allegations made against him, telling the ABC that

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Speaker 2: he always acted ethically and responsibly, saying I never performed

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Speaker 2: surgery to treat anomitriosis or any other condition unless I

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Speaker 2: was absolutely convinced it was in the patient's best interest

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Speaker 2: and to improve their overall quality of life. We reached

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Speaker 2: out to him for comment, but as of this podcast recording,

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Speaker 2: he is yet to respond. If you need some support

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Speaker 2: through this, there are resources available for past patients of

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Speaker 2: doctor Gordon's at Epworth Hospital. The Victorian Government has set

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Speaker 2: up a support line where you can talk to someone,

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Speaker 2: receive information, get help understanding formal complaints processes, and be

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Speaker 2: connected to appropriate healthcare counseling or support services. It will

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Speaker 2: run from nine am to five pm Monday to Friday.

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Speaker 2: The number is zero three nine six six four nine

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Speaker 2: three three zero. We'll pop that in our show notes

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Speaker 2: for you too, if you don't have a penhandy. Some

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Speaker 2: former patients have also started a private Facebook group that

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Speaker 2: you can as to join. They've also been posting practical

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Speaker 2: advice on Instagram and TikTok.

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Speaker 6: My pathology for my hysterectomy with Simon Gordon has come

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Speaker 6: back that there was no agnomiosis. If you're an old

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Speaker 6: patient of Simon Gordon's and you don't know where to start,

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Speaker 6: you need to get your medical records. He's exactly what

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Speaker 6: you need to say, and he's exactly where to send it.

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Speaker 6: I understand this is all very overwhelming, but everyone needs

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Speaker 6: to do it. I can't say too much right now

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Speaker 6: because of legal reasons, but this is not the time

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Speaker 6: to stay quiet, and I don't mean come forward on

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Speaker 6: social media and tell your story I mean to get

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Speaker 6: your pathology, get your records and speak to the lawyers.

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Speaker 2: And Amitriosis Australia also posted that while they can't comment

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Speaker 2: on individual clinical matters or provide legal advice, they explain

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Speaker 2: that patients can raise concerns with their provider or hospital logic,

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Speaker 2: complaint with their state or territory Healthcare Complaints Commission, or

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Speaker 2: contact AAFRA regarding a registered practitioner. We'll put the link

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Speaker 2: to the aphracite in our show notes. Thanks for taking

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Speaker 2: the time to feed your mind with us today. The

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Speaker 2: Quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and Taylor Strano.

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Speaker 2: Our Group executive producer is a Laria Brophy, with audio

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Speaker 2: production by Lou Hill. Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners

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Speaker 2: of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on