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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mayer acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud on Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the ninth of October, the Dulta tellnes you're hearing are

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Speaker 2: min Mia Friedman and hold onto your sparkly pants because

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Speaker 2: I'm driving this show today while Holly is away, and

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Speaker 2: I couldn't be more excited about it.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and today we have a very special

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Speaker 3: guest joining the show. If you are a subscriber, you

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Speaker 3: will know this voice very well from our incredible US

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Speaker 3: election episodes. We have Amelia Lester, who is the deputy

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Speaker 3: editor of Foreign Policy Magazine. She's an esteemed journalist with

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Speaker 3: a long record of covering America politics. Gu she even't

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Speaker 3: lived in America.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, Amelia.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, and I'm so glad that you keep calling

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Speaker 5: me Esteine because that's in my contract with you guys.

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Speaker 2: Always so esteemed called gonna say.

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Speaker 5: You either have it or you don't.

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Speaker 4: Jesse, Yeah, what's the definition?

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Speaker 1: Fancy? And also smart?

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Speaker 2: On the show today, she's just like Oprah except She's blonde,

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Speaker 2: white and thirty years old. Who is Alex Cooper, what

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Speaker 2: is her daddy gang? And why did Kamala Harris choose

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Speaker 2: her podcast to start her media blitz of America just

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Speaker 2: weeks before the election? Plus what happens when a world

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Speaker 2: respected wellness guru finds themselves at the center of some

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Speaker 2: very serious allegations. We unpack the gurification and cancelation of

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Speaker 2: the iceman himself. Whim Hoff and Billie Eilish has done

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Speaker 2: a cover story for US Vogue where she describes the

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Speaker 2: two very personal things she felt forced into discussing, and

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Speaker 2: that interview has us asking is fame broken?

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Speaker 3: But first, in case he missed it, shrink Flation is everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever noticed that your biscuits or your bar

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Speaker 3: of chocolate is noticeably smaller? There are less dish washing

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Speaker 3: tablets in a park, or your cereal box is a

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Speaker 3: fraction of the size it once was.

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Speaker 1: My Caramela koalas are like mini's.

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Speaker 4: See. I thought I was getting bigger because I was

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Speaker 4: a kid. Yeah, because I was Like.

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Speaker 3: When I was a kid, a Fredo frog was a

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Speaker 3: size of my head, But now it's size of my

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Speaker 3: pinky And I'm going Am I a giant? Or is

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Speaker 3: everything around me becoming smaller? And turns out You're not

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Speaker 3: a giant. Things are getting smaller. So the most annoying

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Speaker 3: part of this is that even though products are shrinking,

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Speaker 3: the price stays either the same or it goes up,

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Speaker 3: which is why last week the federal government announced a

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Speaker 3: crackdown on shrink flation tactics. Another tactic I've seen is

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Speaker 3: that biscuits right, same size packet's always been. I open

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Speaker 3: it up, the plastic in the thing is so wide

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Speaker 3: between each biscuit that I'm getting, say, four.

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Speaker 1: Biscuits, more plastic, less bickies.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly right. Has anyone else noticed this or

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Speaker 3: am I alone?

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Speaker 5: Yes? I have noticed this, And I want to introduce

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Speaker 5: you to a concept that you probably haven't heard of,

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Speaker 5: but which you will now find yourself thinking about multiple

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Speaker 5: times a day. And it is en shitification. Have either

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Speaker 5: of you heard of this?

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Speaker 4: And no, bet I'm vibing in.

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Speaker 5: En Shitification was invented in the last couple of years

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Speaker 5: by a Canadian thinker named Cory Doctor Rowe, and he

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Speaker 5: was referring specifically to the way that apps and the

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Speaker 5: Internet are getting worse. So think about the way that

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Speaker 5: whenever you download a new iPhone update, it somehow makes

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Speaker 5: your phone slower and worse in every way, and you

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Speaker 5: wish you hadn't done it. But you can apply it

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Speaker 5: to anything, and I do so every time I see

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Speaker 5: a QR menu, a kitchen appliance breaks, seats on airlines

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Speaker 5: are getting smaller, biscuits are not tasting as good as

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Speaker 5: they used to even now. He blames capitalism for this jesse,

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Speaker 5: And you'd like that.

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Speaker 2: Why is it because corners are being cut to increase margins?

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Speaker 5: Yes, especially post COVID supply chains got complicated. Everyone was

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Speaker 5: looking to make more money. I recently had a trade

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Speaker 5: tell me that the cost of doors has skyrocketed since

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Speaker 5: the pandemic. Now what does that have to do with anything?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: And you'd want it to be somewhat affordable because it

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Speaker 3: is a necessity unless we all just that's a new trend.

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Speaker 1: We start little one hundred dollars or like.

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Speaker 5: This, eleven dollars more expensive than you think, just like

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Speaker 5: everything else now. And I guarantee that now you know

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Speaker 5: about this term, you will be walking around every day

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Speaker 5: thinking to yourself, that's in certification.

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Speaker 3: I think it all the time with my stacks, and

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Speaker 3: again I go, did it just taste better in my childhood?

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Speaker 3: Or every now and then I'll get like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: some fast food thing I haven't had in ages, and

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Speaker 3: I'll go, there's no way you used to look like this,

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Speaker 3: And it is a pathetic iteration of whatever is on

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Speaker 3: the poster, Like I feel as though it's all just

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Speaker 3: getting worse and worse.

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Speaker 6: I want to take a moment, and can we try

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Speaker 6: to think of any law that gives the government the

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Speaker 6: power to make a decision. I know what you're gonna

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Speaker 6: ask about a man's body.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 2: This week presidential candidate and that Kamala Harris gave the

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Speaker 2: first interview in a new media blitz to a woman

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Speaker 2: you may not have heard of if you're not a

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Speaker 2: gen Z or chronically online. Thirty year old Alex Cooper

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Speaker 2: is a podcaster whose show, Call Her Daddy, is one

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Speaker 2: of the top five shows in America. She has five

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Speaker 2: million listeners and viewers because the show is also a

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Speaker 2: video every week, and most of them are aged eighteen

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Speaker 2: to twenty four, so that's firmly in the gen Z camp.

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Speaker 2: And they refer to themselves as the Daddy Gang, Well

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Speaker 2: Alex calls herself their founding father. Now call her Daddy

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Speaker 2: was first released in twenty eighteen on a sports podcast

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Speaker 2: network called Barstool. She co hosted it with her then

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Speaker 2: best friend whose name doesn't matter anymore for reasons that

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Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you, and they spoke mostly about

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Speaker 2: dating and sex in graphic details. So at the time

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Speaker 2: it was described as female locker room talk if women

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Speaker 2: in locker rooms spoke almost exclusively about blowjobs and anal

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Speaker 2: But in one of the most impressive and spectac pacular

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Speaker 2: brand and business transformations ever seen just a few years later,

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Speaker 2: she is now a must do show for any celebrity

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Speaker 2: and now politician who wants to reach young women. So

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Speaker 2: how did this happen? Well, she fell out with her

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Speaker 2: co host over a contract negotiations a few years ago,

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Speaker 2: and she managed to take control of the brand and

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Speaker 2: reinvent it and also reinvent herself as a show that,

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Speaker 2: according to its marketing materials, puts a modern twist on

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Speaker 2: feminism and that is actually pretty accurate. I've listened to

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Speaker 2: call her Daddy since it was sort of a sex show,

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Speaker 2: and it is now one of the top celebrity interview

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Speaker 2: shows in the world, and every a list who wants

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Speaker 2: to sell something to gen Z women sits in an

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Speaker 2: armchair across from Alex and she's always wearing her signature

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Speaker 2: hoodie and sweatpants and often ug boots and they answer

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Speaker 2: her questions. So Gwyneth Paltrow has done it when she

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Speaker 2: wanted to start selling more Goop sex toys, Miley Cyrus,

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Speaker 2: Katie Perry, everybody that's got something to confess or something

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Speaker 2: to promote or both. And now Kamala Harris sits there

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Speaker 2: in the same way that they would have done for Oprah.

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Speaker 2: So that she's got a lot of power, a huge

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Speaker 2: amount of power, and she's now got her own media company.

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Speaker 2: She signed a one hundred million dollar deal with Spotify.

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Speaker 2: That contract now finished and she's out shopping a new

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Speaker 2: deal which is said to be worth probably.

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Speaker 1: Almost twice that. And she's started a company called Trending

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Speaker 1: where she's launching other podcasts from other influences, people like

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Speaker 1: Alex Earl and other gen Z celebrities. So this week,

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Speaker 1: as I said, it was Kamala Harris's turn, And Amelia,

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Speaker 1: did you watch or listen?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 5: I need this explained to me, I don't know anything

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Speaker 5: about this podcast. I was fascinated by the media strategy

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Speaker 5: because Kamala Harris has come under a lot of criticism,

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Speaker 5: including from within the Democratic Party, for not doing any interviews,

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Speaker 5: and it's said that she's really nervous about them because

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Speaker 5: she did a few earlier on in her career and bombed.

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Speaker 5: And she just announced this big media blitz and the

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Speaker 5: first of the media appearances was on Call your Daddy,

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Speaker 5: and oh.

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Speaker 1: My goodness, you're a millennial. You're younger than.

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Speaker 2: Me, you should know better. So I watched the whole

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Speaker 2: thing and it was really interesting. It wasn't really interesting.

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Speaker 2: It to yourself was boring, but I just thought it's

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Speaker 2: as you would expect, right, So, you know, she pointed

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Speaker 2: out in the beginning, she intro and sort of said,

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Speaker 2: I'm not telling you to vote for And I didn't

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Speaker 2: know whether I wanted to get involved politically, but I

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Speaker 2: decided that because gender is such an important issue in

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Speaker 2: this election, there couldn't be this bigger conversation about women's

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Speaker 2: rights without me being involved, which makes it sound like

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Speaker 2: she was egotistical, but she's not.

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Speaker 1: She just knows how influential she is.

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Speaker 3: Egotistical is an interesting word. Fit is because one thing

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Speaker 3: I noticed is that she's, by the way, got this

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Speaker 3: out of Trump's playbook.

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Speaker 4: Trump's been doing this for months.

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Speaker 3: He's been going to all the big bro podcasters because

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Speaker 3: he knows they have a wide cross section. They're as

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Speaker 3: mainstream as you get you can do television. Television's not

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Speaker 3: really that mainstream anymore. But at the beginning of this interview,

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Speaker 3: Alex Cooper says, you know, I'm not a political interviewer.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to ask about fracking or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: She downplays her influence in some way and her intelligence,

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Speaker 3: which is something that Logan Paul that all the men

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Speaker 3: that Trump's done the rounds with hasn't done for a second.

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Speaker 3: They have a question for a second that a potential

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Speaker 3: like presidential candidate would come on their podcast, the like

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Speaker 3: of course you would come on my podcast. But the

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Speaker 3: genius behind this strategy is that it's obviously gen z women.

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Speaker 2: You mean the strategy by Alex or the strategy by

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Speaker 2: Kamala for going on the show.

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Speaker 3: Kamala, Yeah, and that was her strategy. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: I think that Harris's team had to convince call her

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Speaker 3: daddy like, I think that that's how it would have worked.

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Speaker 3: They would have begged because they know the cultural cachet

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Speaker 3: it gives her by even sitting across from Alex Cooper,

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Speaker 3: who thematically she sits there and she does talk about sex.

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Speaker 3: She famously sat with Gwyneth Paltrow and got her to

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Speaker 3: answer who was better in bed out Brad Pitt and

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Speaker 3: Ben Affleck who was better and bad?

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Speaker 7: That is really hard because Brad was like the sort

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Speaker 7: of major chemistry love of your life, kind of like

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Speaker 7: at the time, you know, and then like Ben was

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Speaker 7: like technically excellent.

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Speaker 3: She gets people to she's a really good interviewer. She's

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Speaker 3: actually a brilliant interview.

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Speaker 5: But it's high riskless strategy. I agree that it now

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Speaker 5: looks brilliant now that it's happened and it was successful.

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Speaker 5: But when I first heard it was happening, I was

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Speaker 5: worried because it's essentially a sex podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's not though anymore, it's not. It's actually a podcast

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Speaker 2: about feminis.

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Speaker 5: I was actually going to ask about women's because in

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Speaker 5: order for Kamala Harris to pull off an authentic interview,

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Speaker 5: which is so key in this podcast strategy, is she

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Speaker 5: going to be asked about her sex life.

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Speaker 1: Was she asked about her She wasn't.

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Speaker 2: Nothing was off the table, and they mostly spoke about abortion,

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Speaker 2: which is perfect because that's the issue that's most relevant

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Speaker 2: to her audience, who in many states in the US

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Speaker 2: can't get an abortion. And what I wanted her to ask,

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Speaker 2: what I thought she was going to ask, was have

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Speaker 2: you had an abortion? I've been in that position interviewing

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Speaker 2: prime ministers and stuff, and it's like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a bit edgy doing an interview with someone who's

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Speaker 2: not a political.

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Speaker 1: Reporter or Lee Sales.

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Speaker 2: But that is because we are not professionals and we

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Speaker 2: don't know nearly as much as they do about politics.

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Speaker 2: But she was never going to go there. She said

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Speaker 2: that there's nothing off limits. I also think that Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris could have handled it. And I actually played through

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Speaker 2: my head if she asked Kamala harras, what would I say?

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Speaker 2: If I was Kamla, have you had an abortion? I

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Speaker 2: would have said, Well, that's actually a really personal question,

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Speaker 2: which is why we don't believe the government or anyone

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Speaker 2: other than a woman and her doctor should be involved

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Speaker 2: in this decision.

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Speaker 3: But this is why celebrities agree to do Alex Cooper

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Speaker 3: is because she's not a gotcha She has never had

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Speaker 3: a gotcha moment with a celebrity. What she does if

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Speaker 3: she sits there where her legs crossed, as though they're

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Speaker 3: just two girls at a sleepover.

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Speaker 4: And her job, and I think I've heard her say

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Speaker 4: this is to.

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Speaker 3: Make you look good, so relevant Jesse, Yeah, exactly, make cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So in some ways Jesse was this higher risk for

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Speaker 5: Alex Cooper than it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, come on a one hundred percent, and she had

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Speaker 3: to preface this interview with a spiel like to sort

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Speaker 3: of say, in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, Mayor.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think that there was ever any sort

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Speaker 3: of explicit endorsement. It was like, I'm not here to

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Speaker 3: change your mind. Her background grew up Catholic, A lot

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Speaker 3: of her listeners are kind of Midwest, A lot of

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Speaker 3: them would skeew conservative. Barstool, who originally had the podcast,

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Speaker 3: is known as conservative. So she said, I'm not trying

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Speaker 3: to change your affiliation. I'm just going to have a

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Speaker 3: chat here with someone who is relevant.

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Speaker 5: I think she also said she's open to having Trump

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Speaker 5: on the show if he wants to talk about women's

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Speaker 5: sex life and health too, So yeah, wow, she did.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting as well.

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Speaker 2: I was talking to my daughter about it last night,

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Speaker 2: and she loves Alex Cooper listens to her show a lot,

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Speaker 2: and she said, the reaction and the comments, it's just

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Speaker 2: so many comments. Oh, I'm never listening to you again.

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Speaker 2: Trump twenty twenty four. So she went into it knowing

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Speaker 2: that it was going to polarize her audience, like anybody

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Speaker 2: like Taylor Swift. She didn't close the comments. She never does.

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Speaker 2: But to me, that's also interesting because a bit like

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift, she's like, I'm going to do this because

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Speaker 2: I believe that it's the right thing to do. Not

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Speaker 2: endorsing necessarily, but platforming and having the conversation. And it's

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Speaker 2: interesting that you say, oh, it's a podcast about sex,

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Speaker 2: why would she go on it. It's actually not anymore.

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Speaker 2: That's why it's such an interesting transformation. It's now a

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Speaker 2: podcast about feminism. It's about domestic violence and women's rights,

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Speaker 2: and you say those things as well as celebrities.

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Speaker 3: To push back on that a little bit. The pieces

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Speaker 3: that go viral so recently, one of the most viral

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Speaker 3: moments from a Call Her Daddy interview would be the

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Speaker 3: one with Katy Perry where she's talking about Orlando Bloom

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Speaker 3: and how basically she wants to give him a blow

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Speaker 3: job every time and cleans a kitchen. Yeah, Katy Perry

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Speaker 3: is not going to say that anywhere else, but she

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Speaker 3: is going to say it there and then it's going

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Speaker 3: to go viral on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: So true.

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Speaker 3: If I was Harris, I was being briefed on this interview,

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Speaker 3: there would have been nerves. But I imagine too that

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of behind the scenes negotiation in

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Speaker 3: terms of what they were going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think Alex Cooper would have done it. Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're alone in a room with someone, you

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Speaker 2: can ask them, not alone, but you can ask them

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Speaker 2: what you want in that moment, but you just don't

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Speaker 2: because you know what's expected of you, right, And so

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Speaker 2: she's also building her brand, Alex. The minute you start

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Speaker 2: asking people got your questions or humiliating them or you know, hey,

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Speaker 2: so how often do you have sex with jarg and

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Speaker 2: you know, is it true that he had an affair?

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Speaker 2: Then suddenly people won't come on your show anymore. So

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Speaker 2: it's I don't think it has to be spelled out.

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Speaker 2: She said there were no conditions, and I believe that.

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Speaker 3: I want to know, Amelia, do you think that this

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Speaker 3: shifts the needle? Because Alex Cooper is second only to

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Speaker 3: Joe Rogan really in the US, She's the most powerful

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Speaker 3: female voice in the world platformer certainly, does it shift

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Speaker 3: the needle?

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Speaker 5: Or They've been calls for Kamala Harris to go on

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Speaker 5: Joe Rogan in fact, and there's an argument that that

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Speaker 5: would be way more effective for her because while not

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Speaker 5: all young women are necessarily going to vote for Democrats

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Speaker 5: in November, the audience that she really does need to

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Speaker 5: reach a young man because we're seeing that young men

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Speaker 5: of all races and ethnicities are turning towards Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: more and more. And there's an argument that this is

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Speaker 5: kind of preaching to the choir. And I continue to

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Speaker 5: be concerned about her media strategy because she's talked to Oprah,

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Speaker 5: she's talked to call her Daddy, but when is she

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Speaker 5: going to talk to Joe Rogan. She's on Howard's Turned today.

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Speaker 5: Now that's making a start. He's very popular with men too,

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Speaker 5: But I just think she can't ignore half the population

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Speaker 5: for too much longer.

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 6: That's a good idea, Madam Vice President, welcome to call.

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Speaker 5: Take a plunge in a nice bath and it will

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Speaker 5: fix all your problems I've heard that you have.

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Speaker 1: Is it true?

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Speaker 5: Well, Wim Holf thinks so. He's known as the Iceman,

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Speaker 5: and he's a Dutch extreme athlete. Of course he's Dutch.

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Speaker 5: He got his nickname the Iceman by breaking a number

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Speaker 5: of records related to cold exposure. They include climbing Mount

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Speaker 5: Kilimanjaro in shorts, running a half marathon above the Arctic

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Speaker 5: Circle barefoot, and standing in a container while covered with

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Speaker 5: ice cubes for more than one hundred and twelve minutes.

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Speaker 1: That seems like a very specialized category.

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Speaker 2: I like to do things where I get very cold

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Speaker 2: these days.

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Speaker 5: Wim Half is a guru. He's teaching others the Wim

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Speaker 5: Half method, and he believes you can accomplish these kinds

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Speaker 5: of incredible feats. You to me, I could do this

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Speaker 5: as long as you gain control and command over your body, breath,

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Speaker 5: and mind. There are three pillars to the Wimplf method.

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Speaker 5: You're listening, breathing, I can do that. That cold therapy.

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Speaker 4: I like being cold.

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Speaker 1: I had a swim on the weekend and it was

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Speaker 1: a bit chilly.

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Speaker 5: You told me once you never regret a swim or

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Speaker 5: a baby, and so far that's been true. Third commit

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Speaker 5: meant do you both have commitment? See the celebrities who

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Speaker 5: have endorsed his teachings and follow these three pillars include Oprah,

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Speaker 5: Orlando Bloom, and Chris Hemsworth. Well, now there's a film

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Speaker 5: about the life of the Iceman, and it's been put

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Speaker 5: on hold because allegations have been made by his former

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Speaker 5: partner in a Dutch newspaper. His ex partner, Caroline, has

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Speaker 5: made claims he physically, sexually and verbally abused her during

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Speaker 5: the ten year relationship. Half strongly denies the allegations, and

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Speaker 5: he says he is taking legal action against the Dutch

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Speaker 5: newspaper involved and Caroline and Half's son Noah, who is

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Speaker 5: now twenty one, and her two children from a previous relationship,

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Speaker 5: also allege verbal abuse. One of his step sons, Christian,

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Speaker 5: also accuses Half of physically harming him.

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Speaker 2: He sounds like not a great guy. From everything I've

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Speaker 2: read about this case, You're prepared.

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Speaker 1: To like not a nice guy.

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Speaker 5: Well, in his written answer to the forty four questions

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Speaker 5: that the newspaper put to him. Half denied he had

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Speaker 5: ever been violent. He said it is obvious that Caroline

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Speaker 5: is on the war path and now wants to make

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Speaker 5: everything look different from how it was. And he said

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Speaker 5: that the allegations, specifically the sexual assault allegations were all lies.

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Speaker 5: So whether or not wim Hoff is a good guy,

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Speaker 5: I can't help but notice a trend, which is wellness

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Speaker 5: bros not always practicing what they preached behind the scenes,

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Speaker 5: like Russell Brand. Like Russell Brand, he embraced yoga and meditation,

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Speaker 5: and now he's being investigated for serious alleged sex offenses,

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Speaker 5: which he denies committing. And have you guys heard of

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Speaker 5: Andrew Huberman.

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Speaker 1: We spoke about him. I think lab group for bros.

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Speaker 5: He, unlike Gwyneth Paltrow, has been accused of rage issues

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Speaker 5: and of giving a woman HPV. He denies those allegations.

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Speaker 5: Is that a crime?

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Speaker 1: I mean not saying it's a good thing, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 5: If it's I think knowingly giving a woman is certainly

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Speaker 5: not a nice thing.

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Speaker 3: See there's a scale, right because the other person, the

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Speaker 3: other guru we talked about on the show was Jay

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Speaker 3: Shehtty and he wasn't necessarily accused of being a bad guy,

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Speaker 3: but of being slightly dishonest about his origin story, because

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Speaker 3: every guru needs an origin story, and Hoff has his,

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Speaker 3: which is that his first wife died by suicide, and

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Speaker 3: he said that the only time that he wouldn't think

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Speaker 3: about her, or the way that he was able to

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Speaker 3: move through his grief was that when he was either

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Speaker 3: plunging or submerged in frozen water, his mind went quiet,

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Speaker 3: which is quite an effective and touching origin story for

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Speaker 3: a lot of people. I think, and we know that

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Speaker 3: the mental health epidemic men and women, but men have

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Speaker 3: been really drawn to the wim Holf method, like they're

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Speaker 3: finding this very interesting and compelling to kind of go,

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Speaker 3: you know, mind over matter.

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Speaker 1: People are doing ice bad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: There are places that.

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Speaker 2: You can go, I mean everywhere now they have them

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Speaker 2: as sort of wellness. You can go and pay a

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Speaker 2: certain amount of money and do ice bads.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to drop a mental I went to a

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Speaker 5: wim Half workshop, so I'm extra qualified to.

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Speaker 4: What even is a wim Hoff workshop?

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Speaker 1: How did I not know this about you? Was it

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Speaker 1: before we met? No?

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Speaker 5: I had a neighbor who was very nice and very

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Speaker 5: into wellness, and she invited me to come to a

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Speaker 5: whim half workshop. So I went along, and I knew

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Speaker 5: nothing about it other than it was named after a

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Speaker 5: dutch Man who liked being cold. Yes, so first of all,

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Speaker 5: we were taught how to breathe, and we were told

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Speaker 5: that this was way there. No, he's too important to

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Speaker 5: be there. So this is a disciple. It's a disciple,

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Speaker 5: an accolade, if you will.

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Speaker 1: So like an amway meeting or like an MLM.

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Speaker 5: It was in a sort of undisclosed location in like

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Speaker 5: suburban Washington, DC. So yes, so first of all we

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Speaker 5: learned this breathing, which we were told Mike causes to

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Speaker 5: pass out. Wasn't keen on that. Don't like passing out.

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Speaker 5: And I'm happy with the breathing I'm doing and the

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Speaker 5: being conscious and the being conscious.

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Speaker 3: Scientists have had a few criticisms about the breathing.

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Speaker 2: They've said it what dangerous method to paraphrase, not that

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Speaker 2: anyone should be trying it.

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Speaker 1: Is it like holding your breath and stuff.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you lie down and you hold your breath and

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Speaker 5: then you breathe out of one nostro and breathe out

439
00:21:07,447 --> 00:21:09,207
Speaker 5: of the other nostril and things like that. I hope

440
00:21:09,327 --> 00:21:11,207
Speaker 5: no one from wim half is listening, because I'm sure

441
00:21:11,247 --> 00:21:13,687
Speaker 5: that's not an accurate depiction of what it is. There

442
00:21:13,767 --> 00:21:16,087
Speaker 5: was a lot of pseudoscience invoked. We were told we

443
00:21:16,127 --> 00:21:19,487
Speaker 5: would become less fearful in our life. That hasn't necessarily

444
00:21:19,527 --> 00:21:22,407
Speaker 5: been true of me. Still pretty scared of pot croaches.

445
00:21:22,767 --> 00:21:25,287
Speaker 5: But then we got in what essentially was a very

446
00:21:25,327 --> 00:21:28,207
Speaker 5: cold bath outside in a forest, and there was sort

447
00:21:28,207 --> 00:21:32,727
Speaker 5: of like hikers walking I guess no, the hikers walking

448
00:21:32,767 --> 00:21:35,887
Speaker 5: paths were just like, this is some weird white people.

449
00:21:36,007 --> 00:21:39,447
Speaker 1: We're going to say a cold bath? Like how like?

450
00:21:39,487 --> 00:21:41,607
Speaker 5: So it's just a lot of ice. You go to

451
00:21:41,687 --> 00:21:43,567
Speaker 5: the servo, you get a bunch of ice. You can

452
00:21:43,567 --> 00:21:46,367
Speaker 5: whim half at home, fill up your your tub with

453
00:21:46,407 --> 00:21:49,287
Speaker 5: some ice and get in it for three minutes and

454
00:21:49,447 --> 00:21:50,287
Speaker 5: continue breathing.

455
00:21:50,327 --> 00:21:52,087
Speaker 4: That's im And how did you feel afterwards?

456
00:21:53,047 --> 00:21:55,887
Speaker 5: I regret to inform you that I had the best

457
00:21:56,207 --> 00:21:59,047
Speaker 5: sleep of my life, the best sleep of my life.

458
00:21:59,127 --> 00:22:03,047
Speaker 5: Oh this is the problem. So that night when I

459
00:22:03,087 --> 00:22:04,527
Speaker 5: got on are you in it for? I was in

460
00:22:04,567 --> 00:22:06,047
Speaker 5: it for three minutes And by the way, all the

461
00:22:06,087 --> 00:22:09,527
Speaker 5: women involved were like, this is nothing compared with Child Earth,

462
00:22:09,567 --> 00:22:12,007
Speaker 5: and every man involved was like, I only just got

463
00:22:12,007 --> 00:22:13,087
Speaker 5: through that with the breathing.

464
00:22:14,727 --> 00:22:17,647
Speaker 3: Okay, three minutes is a long time. I feel like

465
00:22:17,727 --> 00:22:18,847
Speaker 3: you went from zero.

466
00:22:18,647 --> 00:22:20,087
Speaker 5: To you could handle it.

467
00:22:20,287 --> 00:22:21,847
Speaker 4: Three minutes is insane.

468
00:22:22,207 --> 00:22:25,247
Speaker 3: My brothers made their own wim half high spa at

469
00:22:25,247 --> 00:22:28,127
Speaker 3: home by buying an old fresh and.

470
00:22:28,567 --> 00:22:30,807
Speaker 1: Bought an old fridge frider.

471
00:22:31,247 --> 00:22:34,327
Speaker 4: They yes, they got a freezer thing they filled it

472
00:22:34,407 --> 00:22:34,647
Speaker 4: up with.

473
00:22:35,167 --> 00:22:36,527
Speaker 5: Is that wim half approved?

474
00:22:36,847 --> 00:22:37,487
Speaker 4: Definitely not.

475
00:22:37,607 --> 00:22:40,127
Speaker 3: But it was actually very complicated for hygiene reasons because

476
00:22:40,127 --> 00:22:42,167
Speaker 3: you have to keep like taking all the water out

477
00:22:42,167 --> 00:22:42,807
Speaker 3: and putting the water.

478
00:22:44,287 --> 00:22:44,967
Speaker 4: You don't want anyone.

479
00:22:45,327 --> 00:22:47,047
Speaker 1: So what happened, Like would they do that every day

480
00:22:47,127 --> 00:22:48,927
Speaker 1: or they did it one time every day?

481
00:22:49,127 --> 00:22:51,607
Speaker 3: They would swear by it. They said it totally transform

482
00:22:51,647 --> 00:22:52,247
Speaker 3: their mental health.

483
00:22:52,247 --> 00:22:55,007
Speaker 5: Well, here's one thing, wim half accolytes say, you can

484
00:22:55,047 --> 00:22:57,247
Speaker 5: do it at home more easily than that by simply

485
00:22:57,567 --> 00:23:00,487
Speaker 5: ending each hot shower with a cold shower. I think

486
00:23:00,527 --> 00:23:02,007
Speaker 5: about doing that every day.

487
00:23:02,087 --> 00:23:05,807
Speaker 2: So I do that about once every six months, and

488
00:23:05,927 --> 00:23:09,687
Speaker 2: when I turn it down, it literally takes my breath away.

489
00:23:09,767 --> 00:23:12,527
Speaker 1: You find yourself doing a big sharp intake of That's why.

490
00:23:12,367 --> 00:23:13,327
Speaker 5: You need the breathing.

491
00:23:13,527 --> 00:23:17,047
Speaker 2: Yeah, why I need the breathing, and then I quickly

492
00:23:17,087 --> 00:23:18,087
Speaker 2: get out of the shower.

493
00:23:18,127 --> 00:23:20,447
Speaker 5: But you know, I'm one of those people who during childbirth,

494
00:23:20,487 --> 00:23:21,967
Speaker 5: you know how you meant to breathe a certain way.

495
00:23:22,607 --> 00:23:24,767
Speaker 5: No one can teach me how to breathe.

496
00:23:25,207 --> 00:23:26,487
Speaker 1: So what did you do when you were in there?

497
00:23:26,607 --> 00:23:27,327
Speaker 1: Just looked at the clock.

498
00:23:27,447 --> 00:23:30,087
Speaker 5: The other wim Hoffers are standing around this bathtub in

499
00:23:30,127 --> 00:23:32,567
Speaker 5: the forest as the hikers walk by, just sort of

500
00:23:32,607 --> 00:23:33,847
Speaker 5: watching me and cheering me.

501
00:23:34,087 --> 00:23:35,447
Speaker 1: That's really kind of creepy.

502
00:23:35,607 --> 00:23:37,007
Speaker 5: It did look like a cult.

503
00:23:37,327 --> 00:23:39,887
Speaker 3: Do you feel weird about how much you enjoyed your

504
00:23:39,887 --> 00:23:42,527
Speaker 3: ice bath now that you know he's about playing them?

505
00:23:42,687 --> 00:23:45,447
Speaker 5: I was storing, so not surprised. You know, in the

506
00:23:45,447 --> 00:23:48,207
Speaker 5: context of RFK Junior, who we have to call another

507
00:23:48,247 --> 00:23:51,047
Speaker 5: one of these wellness bros. He started off as a

508
00:23:51,127 --> 00:23:54,407
Speaker 5: vaccine denier, pushing the idea that childhood vaccines are bad

509
00:23:54,447 --> 00:23:57,487
Speaker 5: for you, and now he's cutting up bears and putting

510
00:23:57,487 --> 00:24:01,167
Speaker 5: them in fridges. Actually there's a fridge chi in as well.

511
00:24:01,727 --> 00:24:04,967
Speaker 2: So what all these people have in common? What's interesting

512
00:24:04,967 --> 00:24:07,127
Speaker 2: to me? I don't know if wim Hoff was this

513
00:24:07,207 --> 00:24:12,607
Speaker 2: guy as well, But like Huberman and Russell Brand and

514
00:24:12,767 --> 00:24:15,607
Speaker 2: are of Kagunior. They tend to go into the conspiracy theories.

515
00:24:16,047 --> 00:24:17,247
Speaker 2: How's it or connected?

516
00:24:17,607 --> 00:24:21,367
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is definitely a pseudo science element, as Amelia

517
00:24:21,487 --> 00:24:24,287
Speaker 3: touched on with wim Hoff. So what I couldn't work

518
00:24:24,327 --> 00:24:29,047
Speaker 3: out is he speaks so confidently about how his body

519
00:24:29,447 --> 00:24:32,567
Speaker 3: defies the science or how what his body can do

520
00:24:32,607 --> 00:24:36,167
Speaker 3: has changed university textbooks. But then when I would try

521
00:24:36,207 --> 00:24:40,847
Speaker 3: and find evidence of that, I couldn't. So what wim

522
00:24:40,847 --> 00:24:42,407
Speaker 3: Hoff is an example of is.

523
00:24:42,767 --> 00:24:43,727
Speaker 1: Very confident man.

524
00:24:43,887 --> 00:24:47,127
Speaker 5: Yes, Helen Lewis be getting in cold water in front

525
00:24:47,167 --> 00:24:48,687
Speaker 5: of other people, which is brave.

526
00:24:48,887 --> 00:24:52,487
Speaker 3: Yes, that's actually very true. Helen Lewis calls them extremophiles.

527
00:24:53,127 --> 00:24:56,327
Speaker 3: There is clearly something in the personality of being someone

528
00:24:56,327 --> 00:25:01,127
Speaker 3: who is extreme. Russell Brand is extreme, Jordan Peterson is extreme.

529
00:25:01,207 --> 00:25:03,807
Speaker 2: Tim Farris also, Yeah, he's another one of those kind

530
00:25:03,847 --> 00:25:05,887
Speaker 2: of become one of those gurus. He started off by

531
00:25:05,927 --> 00:25:07,847
Speaker 2: writing the Four Hour Workweek and now it's all about

532
00:25:07,887 --> 00:25:10,247
Speaker 2: Hyahuascar and and.

533
00:25:10,367 --> 00:25:12,287
Speaker 3: Because there's a grain of truth to a lot of

534
00:25:12,327 --> 00:25:16,367
Speaker 3: their work, but there's something necessarily hyperbolic about it, right,

535
00:25:16,687 --> 00:25:18,927
Speaker 3: Like they have to kind of exaggerate, they have to

536
00:25:18,927 --> 00:25:21,887
Speaker 3: have their origin story in order to get this enormous

537
00:25:21,927 --> 00:25:22,607
Speaker 3: mass audience.

538
00:25:22,727 --> 00:25:23,127
Speaker 4: He is.

539
00:25:23,287 --> 00:25:25,687
Speaker 3: The wim Hoff technique is something he's selling like he's

540
00:25:25,727 --> 00:25:27,127
Speaker 3: making a lot of money off it.

541
00:25:27,167 --> 00:25:29,327
Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm thinking about is elm McPherson.

542
00:25:29,887 --> 00:25:32,047
Speaker 2: We haven't talked about her for a while, but that's

543
00:25:32,127 --> 00:25:35,647
Speaker 2: the same thing. It's like her origin wellness story was

544
00:25:35,767 --> 00:25:41,167
Speaker 2: overcoming cancer without she said treatment, even though she had

545
00:25:41,447 --> 00:25:44,687
Speaker 2: treatment in that she had surgery, and she was selling

546
00:25:45,567 --> 00:25:47,807
Speaker 2: a book and also wellness products.

547
00:25:48,007 --> 00:25:49,167
Speaker 1: What's wim Hoff selling?

548
00:25:49,287 --> 00:25:52,327
Speaker 5: She also dated a vaccine tonight she did Andrew Andrew Wakefield.

549
00:25:52,487 --> 00:25:55,007
Speaker 5: Wim Hoff sells the workshops. It's kind of like a franchise,

550
00:25:55,007 --> 00:25:56,687
Speaker 5: so you had to pay to go to it. Yes,

551
00:25:56,807 --> 00:25:58,927
Speaker 5: the thing I've been thinking about is the crunchy to

552
00:25:59,007 --> 00:26:01,447
Speaker 5: alt right pipeline. That's another way of thinking about it,

553
00:26:01,487 --> 00:26:05,287
Speaker 5: crunchy meaning kind of hippyish. And here's my theory about it.

554
00:26:05,367 --> 00:26:08,247
Speaker 5: I think it's because the alt right likes to pedal

555
00:26:08,247 --> 00:26:10,607
Speaker 5: conspiracy theories and those are fun in a way. They

556
00:26:10,927 --> 00:26:14,127
Speaker 5: sort of come up with exciting, mysterious reasons for why

557
00:26:14,167 --> 00:26:16,047
Speaker 5: the world is the way it is, as opposed to

558
00:26:16,247 --> 00:26:18,007
Speaker 5: the world just being a sort of lass a fair

559
00:26:18,047 --> 00:26:22,407
Speaker 5: mess wellness influencers at throwing all their sales techniques at

560
00:26:22,407 --> 00:26:25,007
Speaker 5: what is just sort of the boring truth that health

561
00:26:25,047 --> 00:26:27,247
Speaker 5: is about common sense and luck and vegetables.

562
00:26:27,567 --> 00:26:28,607
Speaker 4: Yeah, because even.

563
00:26:28,447 --> 00:26:30,887
Speaker 2: Because you can't make money out of just telling people

564
00:26:30,887 --> 00:26:31,967
Speaker 2: to eat vegetables.

565
00:26:32,407 --> 00:26:34,767
Speaker 3: And wim Hoff has said that all of these techniques

566
00:26:34,847 --> 00:26:37,607
Speaker 3: will like fundamentally change your body and means that he

567
00:26:37,647 --> 00:26:39,687
Speaker 3: can withstand the cold to a greater degree right now.

568
00:26:39,727 --> 00:26:40,647
Speaker 1: Evans is another one.

569
00:26:40,727 --> 00:26:42,967
Speaker 3: Yes, But what's interesting about wim Half is that he

570
00:26:43,047 --> 00:26:44,967
Speaker 3: is in the very very rare position of having an

571
00:26:45,007 --> 00:26:49,647
Speaker 3: identical twin brother, right, which is a great scientific experiment

572
00:26:49,967 --> 00:26:52,367
Speaker 3: because you go, well, does your brother who does none

573
00:26:52,367 --> 00:26:56,527
Speaker 3: of these things, is he able to also with stand great?

574
00:26:57,367 --> 00:26:57,607
Speaker 5: Yes?

575
00:26:58,367 --> 00:26:58,767
Speaker 1: He is.

576
00:26:59,367 --> 00:27:02,207
Speaker 3: No, this is great, it's inherent, it's luck. It's exactly

577
00:27:02,287 --> 00:27:04,607
Speaker 3: what you say. So this thing that he's selling is

578
00:27:04,727 --> 00:27:06,647
Speaker 3: just it looks like wim Hoff might be a freak

579
00:27:06,647 --> 00:27:08,527
Speaker 3: of nature, like physically he might be.

580
00:27:09,487 --> 00:27:10,247
Speaker 1: Having really big feet.

581
00:27:10,327 --> 00:27:10,567
Speaker 5: Yeah.

582
00:27:10,647 --> 00:27:13,167
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not that if you breathe a certain way

583
00:27:13,287 --> 00:27:16,727
Speaker 3: in saying that will defend breath work, breathwork, you will

584
00:27:16,887 --> 00:27:21,287
Speaker 3: oh yeah, Like psychologists, that is evidence based in terms

585
00:27:21,327 --> 00:27:24,207
Speaker 3: of anxiety and management for panic attacks. There is truth

586
00:27:24,247 --> 00:27:27,687
Speaker 3: to that. Wim Hoff didn't discover it, but science is

587
00:27:27,767 --> 00:27:30,967
Speaker 3: slow and painstaking and boring. So everything that he says,

588
00:27:31,007 --> 00:27:33,287
Speaker 3: he throws it out. And then science tries to catch

589
00:27:33,367 --> 00:27:36,807
Speaker 3: up and do some clinical trials, and while they're kind

590
00:27:36,887 --> 00:27:39,527
Speaker 3: of flailing over here, he's onto the next thing.

591
00:27:39,967 --> 00:27:42,167
Speaker 2: I'm interested to know if you've done it again, like

592
00:27:42,207 --> 00:27:43,887
Speaker 2: you had the best leap of your life. You didn't

593
00:27:43,927 --> 00:27:45,567
Speaker 2: find it particularly difficult to do.

594
00:27:45,967 --> 00:27:47,847
Speaker 5: No, because I don't want to go and buy a

595
00:27:47,847 --> 00:27:49,767
Speaker 5: ton of bags of ice and throw them in the

596
00:27:49,767 --> 00:27:51,687
Speaker 5: bath when I have children to bathe, you know.

597
00:27:51,887 --> 00:27:53,687
Speaker 1: But so then why don't you just turn the because

598
00:27:53,687 --> 00:27:54,887
Speaker 1: I'm temperature.

599
00:27:54,447 --> 00:27:56,567
Speaker 5: Because I'm chicken, I'm scared to do it.

600
00:27:56,607 --> 00:27:59,927
Speaker 2: But you sat in the wilderness with strangers for three

601
00:27:59,967 --> 00:28:00,607
Speaker 2: minutes in the.

602
00:28:00,607 --> 00:28:03,527
Speaker 5: Eye, but that was pure pressure. And another flag, by

603
00:28:03,527 --> 00:28:05,207
Speaker 5: the way, is when you know this, how all these

604
00:28:05,207 --> 00:28:08,487
Speaker 5: onness bros. They always name things after them. Oh yeah,

605
00:28:08,727 --> 00:28:11,287
Speaker 5: red flag Hoffman's Jesse Stephens method.

606
00:28:11,327 --> 00:28:15,127
Speaker 3: I wonder, Oh my goodness, laying in bed all not

607
00:28:15,127 --> 00:28:17,727
Speaker 3: not going to sleep at all because you're worried, sounds

608
00:28:17,727 --> 00:28:23,647
Speaker 3: still lighting panictuck in bed, checking your phone.

609
00:28:22,967 --> 00:28:24,767
Speaker 5: Scrolling until you reach the end of the Internet.

610
00:28:24,887 --> 00:28:28,327
Speaker 4: Yeah, but breathing while breathing like this.

611
00:28:32,167 --> 00:28:34,567
Speaker 2: So with all of these allegations now, which you know

612
00:28:34,607 --> 00:28:36,807
Speaker 2: there's been a light hearted segment, but obviously the allegations

613
00:28:36,807 --> 00:28:39,727
Speaker 2: are very very serious. Are people going to stop doing

614
00:28:39,767 --> 00:28:42,487
Speaker 2: their ice baths and stop admitting to doing the whim

615
00:28:42,567 --> 00:28:43,207
Speaker 2: Hoff method.

616
00:28:43,607 --> 00:28:44,887
Speaker 1: What's it going to do to his brand?

617
00:28:45,407 --> 00:28:47,207
Speaker 5: Well, in a sad way, I think it kind of

618
00:28:47,247 --> 00:28:50,327
Speaker 5: adds to his mystique for some of his followers. Really,

619
00:28:50,567 --> 00:28:54,247
Speaker 5: I would imagine, I mean, not for my lovely neighbor,

620
00:28:54,367 --> 00:28:57,087
Speaker 5: and certainly not for me. But as Jesse points out,

621
00:28:57,127 --> 00:28:59,887
Speaker 5: there's a lot of men in particular who are attracted

622
00:28:59,887 --> 00:29:02,527
Speaker 5: to these things, and it sort of taps into that

623
00:29:02,647 --> 00:29:04,447
Speaker 5: idea that men are being persecuted.

624
00:29:04,807 --> 00:29:07,207
Speaker 3: I do worry about that and that it can be

625
00:29:07,327 --> 00:29:10,327
Speaker 3: framed very easily as a week which is why I

626
00:29:10,367 --> 00:29:13,527
Speaker 3: went really deep on these allegations. And they are damning.

627
00:29:13,847 --> 00:29:16,967
Speaker 3: They are assaulting a pregnant girlfriend who then went to

628
00:29:17,407 --> 00:29:20,087
Speaker 3: the er. They are police reports, they are like, there

629
00:29:20,167 --> 00:29:22,687
Speaker 3: is a lot of evidence, and as you say, the

630
00:29:22,687 --> 00:29:25,847
Speaker 3: film has now been well pulled for the time being.

631
00:29:26,367 --> 00:29:29,607
Speaker 3: I reckon that the ice bath has grown beyond wim

632
00:29:29,607 --> 00:29:31,847
Speaker 3: Hoff and that there are a lot of people who

633
00:29:31,887 --> 00:29:34,407
Speaker 3: do ice baths that have no idea about the cult

634
00:29:34,407 --> 00:29:34,847
Speaker 3: that starts.

635
00:29:34,887 --> 00:29:37,727
Speaker 2: I don't do ice baths, but I also didn't have

636
00:29:38,087 --> 00:29:40,567
Speaker 2: any idea about who wim Hoff was. I know Holly

637
00:29:40,847 --> 00:29:43,247
Speaker 2: has mentioned him before, but I know so many people

638
00:29:43,287 --> 00:29:44,527
Speaker 2: who are doing ice baths.

639
00:29:44,607 --> 00:29:47,487
Speaker 3: So I'm pretty sure that for a lot of athletes,

640
00:29:47,567 --> 00:29:51,087
Speaker 3: like high performance athletes, ice baths, I'm going to go

641
00:29:51,127 --> 00:29:53,527
Speaker 3: out on a limb and say they either predate or

642
00:29:53,527 --> 00:29:55,447
Speaker 3: like wim Hoff didn't start that because of what it

643
00:29:55,487 --> 00:29:56,127
Speaker 3: does to muscles.

644
00:29:56,207 --> 00:29:58,327
Speaker 5: I don't think wim Hoff invented cold water.

645
00:29:58,527 --> 00:30:00,807
Speaker 4: No, no, it doesn't ring true.

646
00:30:01,127 --> 00:30:06,207
Speaker 1: Fact check that. Do you want daily outloud access? Why

647
00:30:06,207 --> 00:30:06,767
Speaker 1: wouldn't you?

648
00:30:06,887 --> 00:30:10,767
Speaker 2: We drop episodes every Tuesday and third day exclusively for

649
00:30:10,887 --> 00:30:13,647
Speaker 2: Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes

650
00:30:13,687 --> 00:30:15,727
Speaker 2: to get us in your ears five days a week,

651
00:30:16,127 --> 00:30:18,687
Speaker 2: and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

652
00:30:25,487 --> 00:30:27,207
Speaker 5: I got the girl for lunch.

653
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,207
Speaker 8: Yes, she dances on the tongue.

654
00:30:30,287 --> 00:30:34,767
Speaker 3: Billie Eilish never ever wants to talk about her sexuality again.

655
00:30:35,407 --> 00:30:38,127
Speaker 3: The twenty two year old singer and songwriter who rose

656
00:30:38,167 --> 00:30:41,087
Speaker 3: to fame at fourteen with Ocean Eyes, is one of

657
00:30:41,087 --> 00:30:43,367
Speaker 3: the most famous pop stars of the moment.

658
00:30:43,727 --> 00:30:46,367
Speaker 4: She has won two Academy Awards, Did you know that?

659
00:30:46,767 --> 00:30:47,567
Speaker 1: No? Oh Shit?

660
00:30:47,687 --> 00:30:51,807
Speaker 3: For Bobby and James Bond songs, Grammys, MTV Awards, and

661
00:30:52,167 --> 00:30:55,407
Speaker 3: you have probably heard her song Guess which is Everywhere

662
00:30:55,407 --> 00:30:55,847
Speaker 3: at the Moment?

663
00:30:56,007 --> 00:30:57,327
Speaker 4: Or Birds of a Feather, Oh.

664
00:30:57,167 --> 00:30:59,207
Speaker 1: Guess the Color of My Underwear with Charlie.

665
00:30:59,087 --> 00:31:00,367
Speaker 4: Xx very catchy.

666
00:31:00,847 --> 00:31:02,847
Speaker 3: Now a bit of a backstory. In twenty twenty one,

667
00:31:03,127 --> 00:31:05,527
Speaker 3: she would have been around nineteen years old. She released

668
00:31:05,567 --> 00:31:08,527
Speaker 3: a music video for a song called Lost Cause, and

669
00:31:08,607 --> 00:31:10,687
Speaker 3: on her Instagram she shared a bunch of photos and

670
00:31:10,807 --> 00:31:14,727
Speaker 3: videos with the caption I Love Girls, and fans accused

671
00:31:14,767 --> 00:31:18,087
Speaker 3: her of queerbaiting. Queer bating is when a celebrity pretends

672
00:31:18,127 --> 00:31:21,167
Speaker 3: to be queer in order to appeal to an LGBT

673
00:31:21,527 --> 00:31:25,447
Speaker 3: fan base. There were comments like queer bating is bad enough,

674
00:31:25,487 --> 00:31:28,807
Speaker 3: but during Pride Month, I'm sorry but no, or is

675
00:31:28,847 --> 00:31:30,767
Speaker 3: Billy Bay or did I just watch four minutes of

676
00:31:30,847 --> 00:31:34,167
Speaker 3: queerbating by a straight person? Anyway, she said nothing, shouldn't

677
00:31:34,167 --> 00:31:37,327
Speaker 3: reply to any of this. Then, just last year, speaking

678
00:31:37,367 --> 00:31:40,207
Speaker 3: to Variety, she confirmed that she was attracted to women.

679
00:31:40,727 --> 00:31:45,167
Speaker 3: This became a headline about her sexuality and you'll never

680
00:31:45,207 --> 00:31:46,887
Speaker 3: believe it, but all the people who accused her of

681
00:31:46,967 --> 00:31:50,447
Speaker 3: queer baiting went very quiet. Here's what she said soon

682
00:31:50,487 --> 00:31:52,087
Speaker 3: after on a red carpet, and that.

683
00:31:52,127 --> 00:31:54,127
Speaker 4: You felt like for a long time women didn't like you.

684
00:31:54,247 --> 00:31:56,647
Speaker 6: And when that came out, all the women were like, no,

685
00:31:56,727 --> 00:31:58,527
Speaker 6: we love that reception.

686
00:31:58,527 --> 00:32:00,127
Speaker 4: Field didd has your mind changed a little bit.

687
00:32:00,367 --> 00:32:03,487
Speaker 8: I'm still scared of them, but I think they're pretty

688
00:32:04,967 --> 00:32:06,967
Speaker 8: billy mean.

689
00:32:07,247 --> 00:32:09,487
Speaker 4: Did you mean to come out in the story?

690
00:32:11,207 --> 00:32:15,007
Speaker 5: No? I didn't, but I kind of thought, wasn't it obvious?

691
00:32:15,167 --> 00:32:17,647
Speaker 3: But in this new interview with Vogue, she has said,

692
00:32:17,847 --> 00:32:21,247
Speaker 3: I wish no one knew anything about my sexuality or

693
00:32:21,287 --> 00:32:23,767
Speaker 3: anything about my dating life ever, ever, ever, and I

694
00:32:23,767 --> 00:32:27,927
Speaker 3: hope they never will again. Maya this happened recently with

695
00:32:28,287 --> 00:32:32,207
Speaker 3: Tourettes because people kept putting compilations together. I saw them

696
00:32:32,567 --> 00:32:36,327
Speaker 3: about her apparently ticking, and then she was forced to

697
00:32:36,327 --> 00:32:36,967
Speaker 3: comment on that.

698
00:32:37,327 --> 00:32:38,527
Speaker 1: Do you know she was?

699
00:32:38,807 --> 00:32:41,527
Speaker 2: In this Vogue profile, she doesn't talk about it, but

700
00:32:42,127 --> 00:32:44,647
Speaker 2: it mentions that she was diagnosed with Tourette's when she

701
00:32:44,727 --> 00:32:47,447
Speaker 2: was eleven, and she was forced to go public at

702
00:32:47,487 --> 00:32:52,367
Speaker 2: just sixteen after her fans made these compilation videos of

703
00:32:52,407 --> 00:32:56,247
Speaker 2: her physical tics. And you know, I'm sure that the

704
00:32:56,287 --> 00:32:59,047
Speaker 2: fans didn't have ill intentions, but imagine having to reveal

705
00:32:59,087 --> 00:33:02,607
Speaker 2: something so personal because your fans are studying all your

706
00:33:02,647 --> 00:33:04,087
Speaker 2: movements and die.

707
00:33:04,407 --> 00:33:04,567
Speaker 5: Oh.

708
00:33:04,647 --> 00:33:06,647
Speaker 2: She already knew what her diagnosis was, but maybe she

709
00:33:06,647 --> 00:33:08,727
Speaker 2: didn't want to talk about it, and yet she was

710
00:33:08,767 --> 00:33:12,407
Speaker 2: forced to address it. The thing about the sexuality too,

711
00:33:12,527 --> 00:33:15,487
Speaker 2: I've read interviews with a number of young stars who've

712
00:33:15,487 --> 00:33:19,527
Speaker 2: either played gay characters in movies and then had fans

713
00:33:19,967 --> 00:33:24,447
Speaker 2: and paparazzi photographing who they're out with and accusing them

714
00:33:24,487 --> 00:33:31,007
Speaker 2: of lying about their sexuality. And everybody's sexuality is personal

715
00:33:31,167 --> 00:33:35,727
Speaker 2: and private. We also know now that sexuality can be

716
00:33:35,807 --> 00:33:38,127
Speaker 2: fluid and is not necessarily locked down.

717
00:33:39,127 --> 00:33:41,567
Speaker 1: So what is the point? I mean? Is this what

718
00:33:41,767 --> 00:33:42,647
Speaker 1: fandom has become.

719
00:33:42,847 --> 00:33:45,887
Speaker 2: Fans have always gossiped about celebrities that they love, right,

720
00:33:46,167 --> 00:33:51,527
Speaker 2: that's not new. But this idea of the expectation that

721
00:33:51,967 --> 00:33:56,047
Speaker 2: everybody who's famous in whatever avenue they're famous, even if

722
00:33:56,047 --> 00:33:58,967
Speaker 2: they're just in an influencer, is accountable to their.

723
00:33:58,807 --> 00:34:03,527
Speaker 3: Fans and use them their sexuality their diagnoses. I feel

724
00:34:03,527 --> 00:34:05,727
Speaker 3: really sorry for Billie Eilish because every time I look

725
00:34:05,767 --> 00:34:07,087
Speaker 3: at her age, I'm shocked.

726
00:34:07,247 --> 00:34:09,607
Speaker 1: I just have forgot she's only twenty two. She feels

727
00:34:09,607 --> 00:34:10,247
Speaker 1: like a veteran.

728
00:34:10,407 --> 00:34:13,407
Speaker 5: And I was just thinking about how different she was

729
00:34:13,687 --> 00:34:18,047
Speaker 5: becoming famous at sixteen compared with Britney Spears. We didn't

730
00:34:18,047 --> 00:34:21,207
Speaker 5: know anything about Britney Spears when she first became famous.

731
00:34:21,247 --> 00:34:22,847
Speaker 5: Now it turns out she was going through a lot

732
00:34:22,847 --> 00:34:24,847
Speaker 5: of stuff and she continues to evolve.

733
00:34:25,367 --> 00:34:27,567
Speaker 1: But this why do you think it was different?

734
00:34:27,807 --> 00:34:30,927
Speaker 5: Because I just think we didn't demand transparency from our

735
00:34:31,007 --> 00:34:34,087
Speaker 5: celebrities at that time. I mean Billie Eilish. I remember

736
00:34:34,167 --> 00:34:36,367
Speaker 5: that she said in April that she wanted to put

737
00:34:36,367 --> 00:34:40,487
Speaker 5: her face in a vagina, and now in September she's

738
00:34:40,487 --> 00:34:42,727
Speaker 5: saying she's never going to talk about her sexuality again.

739
00:34:43,247 --> 00:34:45,527
Speaker 5: But I think that's understandable because when you're young, you

740
00:34:45,607 --> 00:34:48,527
Speaker 5: do the way you think about these things is always changing,

741
00:34:48,607 --> 00:34:50,727
Speaker 5: and it's just now that we expect celebrities to keep

742
00:34:50,807 --> 00:34:53,647
Speaker 5: us updated on exactly how they think about their sexuality

743
00:34:53,647 --> 00:34:54,287
Speaker 5: at all times.

744
00:34:54,727 --> 00:34:56,487
Speaker 4: Welcome to being twenty two.

745
00:34:56,887 --> 00:34:59,527
Speaker 3: I went deep on Billie Eilish recently because we did

746
00:34:59,567 --> 00:35:02,207
Speaker 3: an episode of Canceled on her and I found this interview.

747
00:35:02,247 --> 00:35:04,327
Speaker 3: I reckon she would have been eighteen or nineteen, and

748
00:35:04,367 --> 00:35:07,207
Speaker 3: it's just Billie Eilish musing. They barely ask her a question,

749
00:35:07,287 --> 00:35:10,527
Speaker 3: they just let her go and for four minutes she

750
00:35:10,607 --> 00:35:13,087
Speaker 3: talks about how many times she poops a day and

751
00:35:13,567 --> 00:35:14,487
Speaker 3: what the poopose like.

752
00:35:14,607 --> 00:35:17,567
Speaker 5: We don't know how many times a day, Brittany. We don't.

753
00:35:17,767 --> 00:35:18,607
Speaker 4: We don't, and we don't.

754
00:35:18,607 --> 00:35:20,247
Speaker 1: That's because there was two things.

755
00:35:20,247 --> 00:35:23,527
Speaker 2: Celebrity has changed and fans have changed along with it

756
00:35:24,047 --> 00:35:26,687
Speaker 2: because of social media. So once upon a time, the

757
00:35:26,687 --> 00:35:29,927
Speaker 2: only way Brittany could communicate anything was through the media

758
00:35:30,007 --> 00:35:33,847
Speaker 2: because she had to give interviews. But now celebrities can

759
00:35:33,887 --> 00:35:37,967
Speaker 2: communicate directly. So, for example, Chapel Roan's been doing that

760
00:35:38,247 --> 00:35:40,247
Speaker 2: for a really long time. She's been making tiktoks, talking

761
00:35:40,287 --> 00:35:43,407
Speaker 2: directly to her fans, and you see that. There comes

762
00:35:43,447 --> 00:35:46,487
Speaker 2: a point Billy was the same. These are women of

763
00:35:46,927 --> 00:35:49,687
Speaker 2: the Internet age. They're digital natives. You know, they never

764
00:35:49,727 --> 00:35:53,007
Speaker 2: grew up knowing anything different. There's a time when you

765
00:35:53,087 --> 00:35:56,527
Speaker 2: see the wall come down, and we're watching that play

766
00:35:56,527 --> 00:35:59,767
Speaker 2: out badly in real time with Chapel ron but with Billy.

767
00:36:00,047 --> 00:36:02,927
Speaker 2: You've seen she's consciously gone right, walls coming down.

768
00:36:03,047 --> 00:36:03,247
Speaker 4: You know.

769
00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:06,247
Speaker 3: What it reminds me of is going on Facebook and

770
00:36:06,287 --> 00:36:08,927
Speaker 3: it serves you as status from you know, eight years

771
00:36:08,927 --> 00:36:10,847
Speaker 3: ago or ten years ago or whatever, when I was

772
00:36:10,847 --> 00:36:14,807
Speaker 3: probably around Billie Eilish's age, and I think I cannot

773
00:36:14,807 --> 00:36:16,887
Speaker 3: believe I wrote that, or I shared that, or that

774
00:36:16,967 --> 00:36:20,887
Speaker 3: was something I was willing to confess only my However,

775
00:36:20,887 --> 00:36:22,887
Speaker 3: many Facebook friends saw it, but she did it in

776
00:36:22,887 --> 00:36:26,887
Speaker 3: front of the entire world, and now it's just sort

777
00:36:26,927 --> 00:36:27,927
Speaker 3: of out there.

778
00:36:28,207 --> 00:36:30,847
Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of a movement away from that,

779
00:36:31,047 --> 00:36:34,007
Speaker 2: you know, I think that I know, not everybody spills

780
00:36:34,007 --> 00:36:36,927
Speaker 2: their guts on the internet, but Jesse, particularly you and

781
00:36:37,007 --> 00:36:41,487
Speaker 2: I also came up in the age of confessions and

782
00:36:41,527 --> 00:36:44,407
Speaker 2: writing and talking very personally about ourselves.

783
00:36:45,047 --> 00:36:47,567
Speaker 1: Amelia, you haven't done that nearly as much. You're a

784
00:36:47,567 --> 00:36:49,527
Speaker 1: different kind of journalist, or you are a journalist.

785
00:36:49,727 --> 00:36:52,767
Speaker 4: She's esteemed, She's esteemed. That's what esteemed me.

786
00:36:52,847 --> 00:36:56,007
Speaker 2: But I'm certainly feeling that I want to pull back

787
00:36:56,207 --> 00:36:58,367
Speaker 2: from some of that now because it doesn't feel safe.

788
00:36:58,407 --> 00:37:00,407
Speaker 1: It feels like you're leaking bits of yourself.

789
00:37:00,447 --> 00:37:03,527
Speaker 5: We saw this in real time. Actually, recently, did you

790
00:37:03,727 --> 00:37:07,327
Speaker 5: see that there was a TikTok of Jenna or Tager,

791
00:37:07,407 --> 00:37:10,887
Speaker 5: who was in the New Beetle Juice remake on the

792
00:37:10,927 --> 00:37:15,207
Speaker 5: Red Carpet with Wenona Wrider. Wenona Writer is asked an

793
00:37:15,207 --> 00:37:19,287
Speaker 5: invasive question by a camera person or by an interviewer,

794
00:37:19,327 --> 00:37:22,647
Speaker 5: and Jenna or Taga turns to Wenona Writer and says,

795
00:37:22,727 --> 00:37:24,847
Speaker 5: you don't have to answer that, boundaries.

796
00:37:25,367 --> 00:37:28,207
Speaker 3: But also what's fascinating about that example is the age

797
00:37:28,247 --> 00:37:29,127
Speaker 3: difference between the two.

798
00:37:29,207 --> 00:37:33,647
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the point. Yeah, X, you asked a question,

799
00:37:33,767 --> 00:37:34,647
Speaker 1: you have to answer it.

800
00:37:34,807 --> 00:37:38,327
Speaker 5: That idea that celebrities can now communicate directly with their fans,

801
00:37:38,487 --> 00:37:41,047
Speaker 5: that's a good thing. But it goes the other way too,

802
00:37:41,207 --> 00:37:42,887
Speaker 5: which I think is what you're getting at too, that

803
00:37:43,247 --> 00:37:46,567
Speaker 5: fans can now communicate directly with celebrities, and it turns

804
00:37:46,567 --> 00:37:49,487
Speaker 5: out that celebrities have feelings too, as again shown by

805
00:37:49,527 --> 00:37:51,727
Speaker 5: Chapel Rohn saying this is too much for me. And

806
00:37:51,767 --> 00:37:54,127
Speaker 5: I was thinking about that also in Malasia with Billy,

807
00:37:54,167 --> 00:37:57,687
Speaker 5: because her mother recently had to come out and explain

808
00:37:57,727 --> 00:38:00,447
Speaker 5: why Billy is not a NEPO baby because people on

809
00:38:00,487 --> 00:38:03,087
Speaker 5: the internet have been accusing Billie Eilish of being a

810
00:38:03,127 --> 00:38:06,847
Speaker 5: NEPO baby. Her mother was an actor in the nineties.

811
00:38:07,087 --> 00:38:10,407
Speaker 5: She appeared on one episode of Friends. People were saying

812
00:38:10,447 --> 00:38:12,287
Speaker 5: that because she was on Friends and she was on

813
00:38:12,447 --> 00:38:15,687
Speaker 5: Curb Your Enthusiasm the expiles West Wing, never in starring roles,

814
00:38:15,967 --> 00:38:19,567
Speaker 5: this somehow made Billy a NEPO baby, and her mother,

815
00:38:19,887 --> 00:38:23,127
Speaker 5: Maggie Baird, said, look, this is a ridiculous charge. I

816
00:38:23,207 --> 00:38:25,367
Speaker 5: was a working class actor. I went on Friends because

817
00:38:25,367 --> 00:38:27,447
Speaker 5: I was about to lose my health insurance. But it

818
00:38:27,567 --> 00:38:29,647
Speaker 5: just reminds me that back in the day, no one

819
00:38:29,647 --> 00:38:32,167
Speaker 5: would have known that these things were being said about them.

820
00:38:32,367 --> 00:38:36,287
Speaker 3: Yes too, Yeah, exactly right. You don't have to defend yourself.

821
00:38:36,327 --> 00:38:39,807
Speaker 3: And I heard this argument recently, the argument for nepo babies,

822
00:38:39,887 --> 00:38:42,727
Speaker 3: which I really liked. Someone is going to get really famous,

823
00:38:42,727 --> 00:38:44,807
Speaker 3: like think of Justin Bieber, or think of Britney Spears,

824
00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,847
Speaker 3: whose parents had nothing to do with the industry. They

825
00:38:47,847 --> 00:38:51,247
Speaker 3: had no context, they had no connections. Things go really

826
00:38:51,287 --> 00:38:54,967
Speaker 3: badly whether or not she's a NEPO baby. When you

827
00:38:55,127 --> 00:38:57,407
Speaker 3: it's like going into teaching, right, my parents teach us,

828
00:38:57,407 --> 00:39:01,247
Speaker 3: My brothers teachers mad nepo babies really good connections and

829
00:39:01,327 --> 00:39:04,087
Speaker 3: really good advice. And like I can help out you

830
00:39:04,327 --> 00:39:07,167
Speaker 3: and guidance and in fact, a lot of the time

831
00:39:07,367 --> 00:39:09,247
Speaker 3: when you get even like I don't know you look

832
00:39:09,367 --> 00:39:12,607
Speaker 3: Goldiehorn and what's her daughter's name, Kate Hudson.

833
00:39:12,447 --> 00:39:15,407
Speaker 4: Kate Hudson, whatever it is. Can't they thrive?

834
00:39:16,007 --> 00:39:16,847
Speaker 1: Winneth Paltrow.

835
00:39:17,007 --> 00:39:19,047
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean a lot of people

836
00:39:19,047 --> 00:39:20,327
Speaker 2: will say that's because of privilege.

837
00:39:20,447 --> 00:39:23,127
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, But I also think that there's an element

838
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:26,287
Speaker 3: of protection because I must say, actually with the Billie

839
00:39:26,287 --> 00:39:28,687
Speaker 3: Eilish example, when she was talking about her poop and

840
00:39:28,727 --> 00:39:30,727
Speaker 3: she was also saying all these things that I went, oh,

841
00:39:30,767 --> 00:39:33,247
Speaker 3: this is and how many times does she There was

842
00:39:33,247 --> 00:39:35,047
Speaker 3: once when she pooped eight times and she said it

843
00:39:35,087 --> 00:39:38,327
Speaker 3: was great, and I was like, that's too many. I

844
00:39:38,327 --> 00:39:41,847
Speaker 3: think that that's actually food poisoning. But her mum was

845
00:39:42,007 --> 00:39:44,607
Speaker 3: just out of shot while she was doing this, and

846
00:39:44,607 --> 00:39:46,887
Speaker 3: she's not yet twenty. And I thought, and this is

847
00:39:46,927 --> 00:39:50,207
Speaker 3: again why I think that the parents are also on

848
00:39:50,287 --> 00:39:54,127
Speaker 3: trial here, because I kept thinking, pull the plug, go,

849
00:39:54,367 --> 00:39:55,847
Speaker 3: you know what, Billy needs her lunch.

850
00:39:57,367 --> 00:39:59,087
Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to tell a twenty year old

851
00:39:59,127 --> 00:39:59,567
Speaker 1: what to do?

852
00:40:00,207 --> 00:40:04,327
Speaker 3: I guess the question of protection and also even with

853
00:40:04,407 --> 00:40:07,967
Speaker 3: chapel rone, who gets involved and who sort of goes

854
00:40:08,567 --> 00:40:10,727
Speaker 3: I don't know who looking out for Billie Eilish in

855
00:40:10,767 --> 00:40:11,727
Speaker 3: that instance.

856
00:40:11,447 --> 00:40:13,287
Speaker 2: Well, this is the first In the Voke interview it

857
00:40:13,327 --> 00:40:15,647
Speaker 2: said this is the first tool that she's done without

858
00:40:15,687 --> 00:40:19,207
Speaker 2: her mother or her brother. Ah, And again I was like,

859
00:40:19,247 --> 00:40:23,167
Speaker 2: oh really, Oh, she's twenty two and that seems impossibly

860
00:40:23,287 --> 00:40:25,367
Speaker 2: old and impossibly young at the same time.

861
00:40:25,967 --> 00:40:28,287
Speaker 3: Do you think it's possible for Billie Eilish now, when

862
00:40:28,287 --> 00:40:30,487
Speaker 3: she's got a song out about Guess the Color of

863
00:40:30,487 --> 00:40:32,847
Speaker 3: My Underwear to never talk about her sexuality?

864
00:40:32,887 --> 00:40:33,087
Speaker 5: Yeah?

865
00:40:33,127 --> 00:40:33,607
Speaker 1: Boundaries.

866
00:40:33,607 --> 00:40:35,167
Speaker 2: I think she can talk about whatever she wants to

867
00:40:35,167 --> 00:40:38,767
Speaker 2: talk about or not. And that's the other thing. Celebrities

868
00:40:38,927 --> 00:40:42,687
Speaker 2: aren't beholden to the media machine anymore. Like she might

869
00:40:42,727 --> 00:40:45,087
Speaker 2: go on Alex Cooper's podcast and talk about it in

870
00:40:45,127 --> 00:40:48,367
Speaker 2: that context, even though context has been flattened because that

871
00:40:48,407 --> 00:40:51,007
Speaker 2: then becomes, you know, a TikTok thing and is reported

872
00:40:51,007 --> 00:40:51,807
Speaker 2: everywhere else.

873
00:40:52,487 --> 00:40:53,727
Speaker 4: And is printed out of context.

874
00:40:53,807 --> 00:40:55,487
Speaker 1: I don't know, do you think that we've lost context?

875
00:40:55,607 --> 00:40:57,327
Speaker 5: Yeah? No, But look at the way like a Jennifer

876
00:40:57,407 --> 00:41:00,167
Speaker 5: Lawrence has all but retreated from the public eye. She

877
00:41:00,327 --> 00:41:03,327
Speaker 5: was out there oversharing that was her brand for many years.

878
00:41:03,327 --> 00:41:05,487
Speaker 5: It was how she came up in Hollywood was she

879
00:41:05,527 --> 00:41:07,567
Speaker 5: became known as the gone next door who shared everything

880
00:41:07,567 --> 00:41:10,207
Speaker 5: about her life, and now she barely speaks. So I

881
00:41:10,247 --> 00:41:13,247
Speaker 5: think now we understand that people can put in place

882
00:41:13,287 --> 00:41:14,967
Speaker 5: boundaries and we respect them more.

883
00:41:15,327 --> 00:41:19,647
Speaker 2: Everybody's talking about nobody wants this. With Kristen Bell and

884
00:41:19,807 --> 00:41:23,487
Speaker 2: Adam Brady, I don't know anything about Adam Brady anymore.

885
00:41:23,527 --> 00:41:24,447
Speaker 1: Like I know he was famous.

886
00:41:24,487 --> 00:41:26,567
Speaker 2: I know he's in the OC and Seth Cole and everything,

887
00:41:26,567 --> 00:41:28,927
Speaker 2: but I don't know what he's been doing since then.

888
00:41:29,007 --> 00:41:30,807
Speaker 5: It's not a pre worksit like it used to be.

889
00:41:30,807 --> 00:41:32,287
Speaker 5: I don't know anything about them. Of Stone, There's a

890
00:41:32,327 --> 00:41:34,527
Speaker 5: whole bunch of celebrities that they just don't know anything

891
00:41:34,527 --> 00:41:35,167
Speaker 5: about anymore.

892
00:41:35,167 --> 00:41:37,487
Speaker 3: There's a lot of celebrities where you do not know

893
00:41:38,127 --> 00:41:40,167
Speaker 3: any of their kids' names, whether the girls are boys.

894
00:41:40,327 --> 00:41:41,607
Speaker 4: Like it's it's I had.

895
00:41:42,607 --> 00:41:45,647
Speaker 5: My channels didn't even announce it had to be until

896
00:41:45,687 --> 00:41:46,367
Speaker 5: months afterwards.

897
00:41:46,447 --> 00:41:48,047
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right. It's interesting.

898
00:41:48,287 --> 00:41:50,127
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for because it has

899
00:41:50,167 --> 00:41:52,407
Speaker 2: been almost an hour since I've drunk a cup of

900
00:41:52,407 --> 00:41:55,327
Speaker 2: tea or done away. A big thank you to Amelia Lester,

901
00:41:55,327 --> 00:41:57,607
Speaker 2: whose pelvic floor is in far better shape than mine.

902
00:41:57,647 --> 00:41:59,767
Speaker 2: And if you do one thing right now, have a

903
00:41:59,847 --> 00:42:02,567
Speaker 2: listen to our subs episode where we unpacked a very

904
00:42:02,567 --> 00:42:04,887
Speaker 2: thorny listener dilemma about work.

905
00:42:05,367 --> 00:42:06,247
Speaker 1: A boss has been.

906
00:42:06,127 --> 00:42:09,167
Speaker 2: Slammed for texting an employee about a non essential work

907
00:42:09,287 --> 00:42:12,847
Speaker 2: issue while he was on holidays. Hi, Tom, hope you're

908
00:42:12,847 --> 00:42:15,087
Speaker 2: having a great time on your holiday. No need to

909
00:42:15,127 --> 00:42:17,127
Speaker 2: reply right now, but I just wanted to keep you

910
00:42:17,167 --> 00:42:19,247
Speaker 2: in the loop. We had a visit from the area

911
00:42:19,287 --> 00:42:21,887
Speaker 2: manager and he's pissed about our figures. I think we're

912
00:42:21,887 --> 00:42:23,807
Speaker 2: going to have to have some really tough meetings when

913
00:42:23,847 --> 00:42:24,287
Speaker 2: you're back.

914
00:42:24,847 --> 00:42:29,527
Speaker 8: Oh controversial opinion. When you're in an intense work environment

915
00:42:29,647 --> 00:42:32,567
Speaker 8: and you have somebody that you're always bouncing off in

916
00:42:32,607 --> 00:42:35,927
Speaker 8: that work environment and then they are not there. That man,

917
00:42:36,047 --> 00:42:39,167
Speaker 8: the person who's messaging him, is trying to make himself

918
00:42:39,167 --> 00:42:41,687
Speaker 8: feel better. So I understand the impulse of that.

919
00:42:42,287 --> 00:42:44,007
Speaker 4: But of course he shouldn't have sent it, but he

920
00:42:44,047 --> 00:42:45,447
Speaker 4: should have left it the notes.

921
00:42:45,487 --> 00:42:46,607
Speaker 1: A problem shared is a.

922
00:42:46,527 --> 00:42:49,967
Speaker 2: Problem halved I have that unfortunately mean that Tom's got

923
00:42:50,007 --> 00:42:52,687
Speaker 2: half a problem on his holiday. There's a link in

924
00:42:52,687 --> 00:42:54,247
Speaker 2: the show notes to listen to the rest of that

925
00:42:54,247 --> 00:42:55,207
Speaker 2: episode right now.

926
00:42:55,607 --> 00:42:56,727
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

927
00:42:57,647 --> 00:43:00,167
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and me A subscribers listening.

928
00:43:00,407 --> 00:43:02,567
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

929
00:43:02,807 --> 00:43:05,607
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Maa is the very best way

930
00:43:05,647 --> 00:43:08,167
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.

931
00:43:10,287 --> 00:43:12,967
Speaker 7: Then respector public peace.