WEBVTT - Eurydice Dixon Was Just Walking Home 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:29.862 recorded on it's two minutes after midnight on Wednesday, June thirteenth, 0:00:29.902 --> 0:00:34.102 twenty eighteen, and Eurydicy Dixon removes her shoes as she 0:00:34.222 --> 0:00:38.222 strolls through Princess Parking Inner, Melbourne. She's just finished having 0:00:38.222 --> 0:00:41.102 a few drinks with friends after performing a comedy show 0:00:41.142 --> 0:00:43.622 at Highland of Bar. It went really well. 0:00:44.102 --> 0:00:45.702 She feels on top of the world. 0:00:45.982 --> 0:00:49.382 Finally, her career is really starting to take off. How exciting. 0:00:50.462 --> 0:00:53.742 I'm nearly home. How about you, She texts her boyfriend 0:00:53.862 --> 0:00:56.542 as she strolls across the soccer pitch drenched in moonlight. 0:00:57.742 --> 0:01:00.982 Suddenly she's yanked back by her hair in the back 0:01:01.022 --> 0:01:04.462 of her dress. A weight is on her chest, her 0:01:04.462 --> 0:01:10.102 clothes are ripped open. She's being choked. Eurydicy never makes 0:01:10.142 --> 0:01:14.902 it home. Her sister later shares in a victim impact statement, 0:01:14.942 --> 0:01:17.422 how the trauma of her sister's murder has pervaded the 0:01:17.462 --> 0:01:21.222 lives of everyone in their family, how her own enormous 0:01:21.262 --> 0:01:25.702 grief has been immobilizing. Sadly, the strongest emotion I feel 0:01:25.742 --> 0:01:29.222 is anger. She said, She's not the only one who 0:01:29.262 --> 0:01:34.382 feels that. Eurytic's name is one most Australians know because 0:01:34.422 --> 0:01:37.142 what happened to her on that average Wednesday night in 0:01:37.182 --> 0:01:50.262 a Melbourne park will forever be etched into our cultural psyche. 0:01:53.382 --> 0:01:57.062 I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations Amom 0:01:57.062 --> 0:02:00.702 of Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 0:02:00.742 --> 0:02:02.982 speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:02:05.422 --> 0:02:14.142 See let justice beacy and just did with me. I 0:02:14.302 --> 0:02:17.342 will fight sad Amin free. 0:02:17.622 --> 0:02:22.662 If we are we saying name, then you did not dine. 0:02:24.742 --> 0:02:28.742 You see. 0:02:30.142 --> 0:02:32.342 That song you just heard was written for twenty two 0:02:32.422 --> 0:02:35.582 year old Euridice Dixon. It's a tribute to a beautiful 0:02:35.582 --> 0:02:38.062 life gone too soon and for all the women lost 0:02:38.102 --> 0:02:42.422 to violence. It's been six years today since the rape 0:02:42.502 --> 0:02:45.982 and murder of the up and coming comedian, six years 0:02:46.422 --> 0:02:49.862 since her boyfriend Tony and her family the horrendous details 0:02:49.902 --> 0:02:54.222 of her death. Six years since Melbourne and Australia were 0:02:54.222 --> 0:02:58.382 widely erupted with anger at the circumstances surrounding her murder. 0:02:58.862 --> 0:03:02.302 We learned today of the terrible motive behind a murder 0:03:02.382 --> 0:03:03.862 that shocked Melbourne. 0:03:03.542 --> 0:03:07.102 The depraved crime that saw nationwide outrage and vigils in 0:03:07.142 --> 0:03:08.182 the days that followed. 0:03:08.342 --> 0:03:10.822 One of these marches is planned for this month and 0:03:10.942 --> 0:03:14.742 has already attracted the interest of thousands of people. It's 0:03:14.782 --> 0:03:18.502 being held in honor of Eurydice Dixon, who was murdered 0:03:18.582 --> 0:03:19.942 here in Prince's Park. 0:03:20.422 --> 0:03:24.302 A week after Eurydice's death, ten thousand people gathered at 0:03:24.342 --> 0:03:27.622 a candle at vigil at the park where she was killed. Men, 0:03:27.902 --> 0:03:32.462 women and children came with blankets and candles and flowers 0:03:33.022 --> 0:03:37.862 and sat in silence beneath dimmed park lights at six pm. 0:03:38.222 --> 0:03:42.222 Her killer remains behind bars. As recently as twenty twenty, 0:03:42.662 --> 0:03:45.982 James Todd lost a bid to reduce his sentence. At 0:03:45.982 --> 0:03:48.782 the moment, he won't be eligible for parole until he 0:03:48.862 --> 0:03:52.662 is fifty four years old. His crimes were described in 0:03:52.742 --> 0:03:55.662 court as being one of the worst examples of murder 0:03:55.902 --> 0:04:00.982 and pure and unmitigated evil. Sarah Krasnysteine is an award 0:04:00.982 --> 0:04:03.422 winning author who has covered and written about this case 0:04:03.462 --> 0:04:06.862 in detail. She holds a doctorate in criminal law, and 0:04:06.942 --> 0:04:09.342 in this episode was able to give us an insight 0:04:09.702 --> 0:04:12.902 into just how US sentencing judge uses the information available 0:04:12.902 --> 0:04:18.622 to them to determine an appropriate punishment. Sarah joins us. Now, 0:04:26.142 --> 0:04:28.662 before we focus on eu decease death, I'd like to 0:04:28.662 --> 0:04:32.022 talk about her life. What do we know about who 0:04:32.062 --> 0:04:34.262 she was and what she was doing with herself in 0:04:34.262 --> 0:04:34.942 twenty eighteen. 0:04:35.902 --> 0:04:38.862 Yeah, I mean, we can't talk about the crime that 0:04:39.022 --> 0:04:42.662 James Todd committed without talking about the woman he assaulted 0:04:42.782 --> 0:04:44.902 and killed, who was twenty two year old. You were 0:04:44.942 --> 0:04:48.782 to see Dixon, but I'm mindful of what her father 0:04:48.942 --> 0:04:52.102 said outside of the Supreme Court after Todd was sentenced, 0:04:52.142 --> 0:04:55.222 which was that Euridice should be remembered for her wits, 0:04:55.262 --> 0:04:58.222 her courage, and her kindness and not for her death. 0:04:58.902 --> 0:05:01.982 So in my piece about the case for the Monthly, 0:05:02.062 --> 0:05:04.342 I wrote that you ready to see Dixon was an artist, 0:05:04.462 --> 0:05:08.022 a comedian, and a writer, and the place to memorialize 0:05:08.062 --> 0:05:11.342 such an individual is not in the contact of her murder. 0:05:11.702 --> 0:05:13.702 It's the last note of her song and it was 0:05:13.782 --> 0:05:17.622 chosen by someone else. So at the same time, though, 0:05:17.982 --> 0:05:21.342 it's important that she is remembered, so I'll just mention 0:05:21.382 --> 0:05:24.342 a few things that I learned were important to her 0:05:24.502 --> 0:05:28.142 through her family and friends at the trial and also 0:05:28.262 --> 0:05:30.982 in the context of comedy show that they put on 0:05:31.022 --> 0:05:35.342 in her honor shortly afterwards. She lived in Inner City Melbourne. 0:05:35.502 --> 0:05:38.742 She had made her first debut at the Melbourne International 0:05:38.742 --> 0:05:43.662 Comedy Festival in twenty eighteen, and the respect and love 0:05:43.822 --> 0:05:47.182 that she inspired in her friends and family was palpable 0:05:47.222 --> 0:05:50.742 in the courtroom. So I think it's also important to 0:05:50.822 --> 0:05:53.262 note that at the time of her death she was 0:05:53.342 --> 0:05:56.662 working on a show about radical empathy, and that it's 0:05:56.702 --> 0:05:59.622 notable that the subject of that was the men who 0:05:59.702 --> 0:06:04.542 felt left behind by feminism. I think it's also important 0:06:04.582 --> 0:06:07.662 for anybody who's interested in learning more about her as 0:06:07.702 --> 0:06:10.862 a person and not just a victim. Was a book 0:06:10.862 --> 0:06:14.622 called No Apologies by Joanne Brookfield, which is about Australian 0:06:14.662 --> 0:06:18.542 live comedy, and she actually describes one of Dixon's acts 0:06:18.582 --> 0:06:21.942 in detail and gives her the respect that she deserved 0:06:21.942 --> 0:06:24.862 as a writer and a comedian and a performer with 0:06:24.942 --> 0:06:28.822 her own very funny, very unique and profound voice. 0:06:30.022 --> 0:06:34.022 Comedy is such a hard profession, especially when you're young 0:06:34.062 --> 0:06:37.542 and rising, which is what Dixon was doing. And on 0:06:37.862 --> 0:06:41.022 the particular night Wednesday, June thirteen, twenty eighteen, she just 0:06:41.062 --> 0:06:44.142 finished a comedy show at the Highlander Bar. From all accounts, 0:06:44.142 --> 0:06:46.262 it sounds like she did a great job. She was 0:06:46.302 --> 0:06:49.262 pretty happy with herself afterwards, chatting with her friends and 0:06:49.302 --> 0:06:53.622 her boyfriend, and then she walked home after celebrating via 0:06:53.662 --> 0:06:56.782 Melbourne's Princess Park. Can you tell us about that walk. 0:06:56.822 --> 0:06:59.982 You've written about how she in fact enjoyed her commute. 0:06:59.982 --> 0:07:01.422 She often took her shoes off. 0:07:02.422 --> 0:07:05.822 It's a very Melbourne map that she covers. So she 0:07:05.862 --> 0:07:09.422 had just said goodbye to her boyfriend Tony Magnuson after 0:07:09.702 --> 0:07:11.422 the show, and they had a snack, kind of a 0:07:11.622 --> 0:07:14.982 late night snack, and he got on a tram and 0:07:15.022 --> 0:07:18.142 she started walking back to her place in the other direction, 0:07:18.582 --> 0:07:20.462 and so they saw each other for the last time 0:07:20.542 --> 0:07:24.702 outside of Linder's Street station. So it's a very Melbourne 0:07:24.942 --> 0:07:30.862 iconic setting for what happens next she walks through the city. 0:07:31.942 --> 0:07:33.822 There was a sense in the description and in the 0:07:33.862 --> 0:07:36.502 camera footage that she was kind of open to the world. 0:07:37.102 --> 0:07:39.902 And there was a mention which touched me kind of 0:07:39.982 --> 0:07:43.262 as a writer, that she was seeing kind of speaking 0:07:43.302 --> 0:07:45.942 to herself. And I think anyone who is a writer 0:07:46.222 --> 0:07:48.982 or writes comedy or does performances, we do that all 0:07:49.022 --> 0:07:51.302 the time, we're kind of living in a separate world 0:07:51.302 --> 0:07:51.622 all the. 0:07:51.582 --> 0:07:54.982 Time, saying things out loud to process them exactly. 0:07:55.022 --> 0:07:57.982 So that was quite familiar to me. So she walks 0:07:58.142 --> 0:08:02.022 down through the city back towards the Inner North where 0:08:02.062 --> 0:08:06.622 she was living, and it's right outside Flinders Street station 0:08:06.782 --> 0:08:10.462 as well that James Todd happens to see her, and 0:08:10.582 --> 0:08:12.262 that he starts following her home. 0:08:13.462 --> 0:08:17.862 You know that park, Well, you've retraced yourridcey steps. Is 0:08:17.902 --> 0:08:21.222 it a well lit place? Is it frequented by many 0:08:21.262 --> 0:08:22.462 people at that time of night. 0:08:22.982 --> 0:08:25.342 Well, this is part of the reason why this case 0:08:25.582 --> 0:08:27.942 kind of grabbed me from the beginning, which was that 0:08:28.062 --> 0:08:33.542 Princess Park where she spent her last moments. Like you mentioned, 0:08:33.542 --> 0:08:35.782 she does take off her shoes when she answers the park, 0:08:35.822 --> 0:08:38.422 which I think is this glorious image of, you know, 0:08:38.542 --> 0:08:43.662 a woman who is embracing this quality that I think 0:08:43.742 --> 0:08:46.062 is eroded in all of us by crimes like this, 0:08:46.222 --> 0:08:48.902 which is that openness to life and a kind of 0:08:49.022 --> 0:08:52.182 enjoyment of the moment in the place. And she's walking 0:08:52.182 --> 0:08:55.062 across the grass of Princess Park, and yeah, it is 0:08:55.102 --> 0:08:58.182 familiar to me. I trained for two marathons around it. 0:08:58.182 --> 0:09:00.702 It's a three k radius, so it's not very big, 0:09:00.782 --> 0:09:03.102 and there would be weekends where I'd run around it, 0:09:03.302 --> 0:09:06.022 you know, ten times for training. I went to UNI 0:09:06.062 --> 0:09:11.062 at Melbourne UNI nearby, so picnics and played a and 0:09:11.822 --> 0:09:15.342 you know, exercise and relaxation. That has all happened in 0:09:15.382 --> 0:09:18.782 my life in that space where yeah, she had her 0:09:18.822 --> 0:09:21.862 last living moments and then where she was violently attacked. 0:09:22.742 --> 0:09:24.742 Can you talk us through what happened to you? 0:09:24.862 --> 0:09:25.182 To see? 0:09:25.222 --> 0:09:27.502 After midnight on that evening, so. 0:09:27.622 --> 0:09:31.462 James had been following her for about an hour since 0:09:31.462 --> 0:09:34.862 he saw her outside of Flunder Street station. She was walking. 0:09:34.902 --> 0:09:37.502 He was keeping a distance behind her. If she stopped 0:09:37.542 --> 0:09:40.262 to look at something or at a crosswalk, he would 0:09:40.302 --> 0:09:42.502 stop and roll a cigarette and pretend to just be 0:09:42.582 --> 0:09:44.622 hanging out. But he had his eyes on her the 0:09:44.662 --> 0:09:46.902 whole time. And the footage of that is quite chilling 0:09:47.462 --> 0:09:50.662 because it is very much like a hunter's stalking prey. 0:09:51.822 --> 0:09:55.382 Around midnight, she texted her partner that she was almost 0:09:55.382 --> 0:09:57.262 home and to see if he had made it home 0:09:57.302 --> 0:10:01.422 safely as well. She was nine hundred meters from her 0:10:01.622 --> 0:10:05.982 home when she was walking across one of the soccer 0:10:06.022 --> 0:10:10.382 pitches of the park and Todd attacked her from behind, 0:10:10.462 --> 0:10:15.502 and he sexually assaulted her and strangled her, and she 0:10:15.582 --> 0:10:18.142 was killed not even a kilometer from her house. 0:10:19.782 --> 0:10:23.622 She was found the next morning, very early in the morning. 0:10:24.622 --> 0:10:25.622 How did they find her? 0:10:26.302 --> 0:10:26.902 So she was. 0:10:26.942 --> 0:10:31.502 Killed just after midnight and she was found just before 0:10:31.542 --> 0:10:35.942 three am by a man who was like she had 0:10:35.982 --> 0:10:40.942 been returning home from work. He was just a passer 0:10:40.982 --> 0:10:42.982 by and he was riding his bike across the soccer 0:10:43.102 --> 0:10:45.462 pitches in the dark, and he saw a figure on 0:10:45.502 --> 0:10:48.142 the ground and he stopped to check on her, and 0:10:48.182 --> 0:10:50.422 then he called Triple O when he found that she 0:10:50.502 --> 0:10:54.382 wasn't responsive, and he tried to administer CPR. And in 0:10:54.422 --> 0:10:58.982 the sentencing hearing, when we heard that evidence, it was 0:11:00.182 --> 0:11:03.822 immensely reassuring to know that, you know, people will stop 0:11:04.102 --> 0:11:07.302 and he doesn't know what happened to her, and when 0:11:07.342 --> 0:11:09.462 he can kind of see that it's been violent, that 0:11:09.582 --> 0:11:11.502 doesn't stop her from trying to help. So that was 0:11:11.582 --> 0:11:14.582 quite life affirming. At the same time, there is something 0:11:15.062 --> 0:11:17.662 quite dark in the fact that he was going to 0:11:17.782 --> 0:11:20.302 just walk home in the same way that women have 0:11:20.422 --> 0:11:23.062 been and would be again. After this case was in 0:11:23.142 --> 0:11:25.262 the media, warrened that we're not allowed to do. 0:11:26.462 --> 0:11:28.302 I want to talk about the evolution of the media 0:11:28.382 --> 0:11:30.582 coverage of this, but first of all, let's just talk 0:11:30.622 --> 0:11:33.062 about that initial coverage, because I'm imagining it would have 0:11:33.102 --> 0:11:38.182 been women found murdered in local Melbourne park, signs of 0:11:38.182 --> 0:11:40.142 sexual assault, it would have been all of those initial 0:11:40.222 --> 0:11:42.942 kind of reports. Do you remember breaking how did it 0:11:42.982 --> 0:11:43.622 make you feel? 0:11:44.622 --> 0:11:47.982 Yeah? I remember that day after she had been found, 0:11:48.302 --> 0:11:52.902 and he confessed fairly quickly, and the day after that 0:11:53.022 --> 0:11:57.102 he was brought into the magistrates court and charge. So 0:11:57.142 --> 0:12:00.422 it was quite quick. And at that early stage, all 0:12:00.542 --> 0:12:04.862 that we knew was that this terrible crime had happened 0:12:05.142 --> 0:12:09.302 in Princess Park in the middle of the city, and 0:12:09.502 --> 0:12:14.342 the victim was extremely young, and the mind raises with 0:12:14.622 --> 0:12:17.982 all of the tropes of who the stranger in the 0:12:18.062 --> 0:12:22.782 dark might be, a man with a bellaclava and a knife. 0:12:23.542 --> 0:12:26.182 We think that it was going to be an older guy. 0:12:26.622 --> 0:12:30.582 So my curiosity was, oh, my gosh, this terrible thing 0:12:30.622 --> 0:12:34.142 has happened in one of the collective Melbourne places. I 0:12:34.222 --> 0:12:37.822 wonder who it was. I can't believe how young this 0:12:37.942 --> 0:12:41.102 victim is. And so I showed up at the magistrates 0:12:41.182 --> 0:12:44.262 court for that reason. And you know, we see James 0:12:44.302 --> 0:12:46.462 Todd walk out and he was so young. 0:12:47.302 --> 0:12:49.222 Yeah, because he was nineteen. 0:12:49.422 --> 0:12:53.542 Surprisingly young and a young nineteen. The way he carried himself, 0:12:53.662 --> 0:12:58.182 the kind of baby fat on his face, he presented 0:12:58.262 --> 0:12:59.222 like a child. 0:13:00.622 --> 0:13:03.422 You mentioned that it all happened quite quickly. Let's talk 0:13:03.462 --> 0:13:07.582 about that her killer surrendered to police. How did that 0:13:07.622 --> 0:13:08.302 all unfold? 0:13:09.022 --> 0:13:12.702 So one of the many chilling things about this crime 0:13:12.862 --> 0:13:15.342 is that the day of the murder had been very 0:13:15.382 --> 0:13:18.462 normal for James Todd, and so was the night after 0:13:18.502 --> 0:13:22.822 the murderer. So he raped and killed Ort to see Dixon, 0:13:23.062 --> 0:13:25.862 and then he left the park with her phone, and 0:13:25.942 --> 0:13:29.782 he slept on a bench at a very nearby train station. 0:13:31.182 --> 0:13:35.782 And then he actually returns to Princess Park just before 0:13:36.062 --> 0:13:39.702 five am, where he was moved on by the police 0:13:39.822 --> 0:13:43.782 who were trying to establish a crime scene. He then 0:13:44.342 --> 0:13:47.102 takes a tram back into the city. He eats a 0:13:47.142 --> 0:13:50.462 pie and has a coffee, and then he takes the 0:13:50.502 --> 0:13:54.822 train home and he's back home by around quarter to 0:13:54.862 --> 0:14:00.102 seven in the morning, googling a violent porn on his iPad. 0:14:01.102 --> 0:14:04.382 He also, and we know this from the police search, 0:14:05.062 --> 0:14:10.142 that he was googling for Princess Park. He was trying 0:14:10.142 --> 0:14:13.382 to find of news about the crime had broken yet, 0:14:13.702 --> 0:14:17.382 and so those kind of news searches are interspersed with 0:14:18.102 --> 0:14:23.302 searches for rape and murder porn that night. So the 0:14:23.382 --> 0:14:26.102 day passes and around six point thirty in the evening, 0:14:26.262 --> 0:14:28.382 he has a friend call him and say that his 0:14:28.462 --> 0:14:31.902 face is on the news. So they've released the CCTV 0:14:32.462 --> 0:14:36.502 footage which shows him walking through the city, just outside 0:14:36.502 --> 0:14:40.702 Melbourne UNI. And that's when he googles broad Meadows police 0:14:40.702 --> 0:14:43.382 station number and he calls the police saying that it's 0:14:43.422 --> 0:14:45.782 him on the news, but he wasn't involved in any death. 0:14:46.342 --> 0:14:48.862 And he's driven to the station by his girlfriend. They've 0:14:48.902 --> 0:14:52.022 been together four years at that point, his girlfriend and 0:14:52.062 --> 0:14:55.622 her mother and it's the girlfriend's mother who says, you know, 0:14:55.662 --> 0:14:57.902 you better call your own mom and have her come down. 0:14:58.542 --> 0:15:00.782 And that's when he's interviewed. 0:15:01.822 --> 0:15:05.662 And in that interview he does crack. But it takes 0:15:05.662 --> 0:15:06.582 a while, doesn't it. 0:15:07.222 --> 0:15:10.382 Yeah, he kind of maintains his denial over one hundred 0:15:10.542 --> 0:15:12.902 of questions. It sounds like it was a very long time, 0:15:12.942 --> 0:15:15.142 but it actually would have been I think a fairly 0:15:15.782 --> 0:15:20.782 standard police interview. So they're asking him all about his day, 0:15:21.422 --> 0:15:24.942 and he maintains his innocence for I think was over 0:15:24.982 --> 0:15:29.262 six hundred questions. And then the detective explains to him 0:15:29.742 --> 0:15:32.062 how the DNA comparison is going to work when they 0:15:32.102 --> 0:15:34.862 do it, and that probably if he has anything to 0:15:34.902 --> 0:15:38.222 tell them, the earlier the better. And so he says, 0:15:38.742 --> 0:15:41.422 don't worry about the DNA. I did it and I'll 0:15:41.422 --> 0:15:44.062 tell you everything. But of course then what he says 0:15:44.462 --> 0:15:45.182 is not the truth. 0:15:46.102 --> 0:15:46.862 What do you mean by that? 0:15:47.942 --> 0:15:52.622 So he had a kind of elaborate story. He had 0:15:52.662 --> 0:15:55.862 just wanted to rob her. He wasn't stalking her with 0:15:56.062 --> 0:15:59.542 intent to rape. That was something that just popped into 0:15:59.582 --> 0:16:03.182 his mind when he was on the ground with her 0:16:03.622 --> 0:16:08.542 after this botched attempt to rob her. That the strangulation 0:16:08.942 --> 0:16:11.382 was an an attempt to stop her crying out about 0:16:11.382 --> 0:16:15.262 the robbery, and it matched none of what subsequently came 0:16:15.342 --> 0:16:17.262 to light about his motivation. 0:16:22.382 --> 0:16:26.062 You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimy Bass. 0:16:26.702 --> 0:16:30.822 I'm speaking with Sarah Krasmustin about the murder of Youriddicy Dixon. 0:16:31.542 --> 0:16:34.862 Up next, we examine James Todd's sentencing hearing and his 0:16:34.982 --> 0:16:45.822 sexual sadism diagnosis. We know he eventually pleads guilty. So 0:16:45.862 --> 0:16:48.822 does that mean he does go with the prosecution and 0:16:48.862 --> 0:16:51.222 the police's version of events eventually. 0:16:51.302 --> 0:16:54.662 Well, yes and no. It means that for the purposes 0:16:54.702 --> 0:16:57.822 of what can be proved in terms of his conduct 0:16:57.942 --> 0:17:02.462 and his intention, that there is not a viable argument 0:17:02.622 --> 0:17:06.102 in favor of his innocence for the murder charge. But 0:17:06.782 --> 0:17:09.502 motivation is always an internal thing. The lord has to 0:17:09.582 --> 0:17:13.022 just prove that that he intended to kill her or 0:17:13.062 --> 0:17:17.102 that he intended to cause her serious harm. He was 0:17:17.302 --> 0:17:21.182 quite vigorous at the sentencing hearing in saying that he 0:17:21.262 --> 0:17:24.782 did not have this rape and murder of fantasy that 0:17:24.862 --> 0:17:27.662 he was acting on. That was not something that was 0:17:27.702 --> 0:17:30.702 in his mind when he was stalking her, because in 0:17:30.782 --> 0:17:34.262 terms of his moral culpability, killing someone at the service 0:17:34.302 --> 0:17:38.622 of a violence sexual fantasy is incredibly aggravating and serious, 0:17:39.062 --> 0:17:42.142 and if it happened in a fit of panic or 0:17:42.182 --> 0:17:45.382 what have you, it's still, of course terrible, but violence 0:17:45.422 --> 0:17:48.462 is slightly different. Can you tell us a. 0:17:48.382 --> 0:17:51.262 Bit more about him? We know he's nineteen, we know 0:17:51.302 --> 0:17:53.582 he has a girlfriend. What else is there to know 0:17:53.622 --> 0:17:54.462 about James Todd. 0:17:55.222 --> 0:17:58.102 So one of the things that was striking to me, 0:17:58.182 --> 0:18:00.822 and I think to many given the activation in the 0:18:00.862 --> 0:18:03.502 media around this case, was the fact that obviously, as 0:18:03.502 --> 0:18:05.742 I said, he's so young at the time, and that 0:18:05.822 --> 0:18:09.182 he had no prior criminal history, so this offending was 0:18:09.182 --> 0:18:12.182 the first the criminal justice system had ever seen of him. 0:18:12.862 --> 0:18:15.502 We know that he was about to finish a hospitality 0:18:15.742 --> 0:18:18.902 training course in the city, and like I said, he'd 0:18:18.902 --> 0:18:21.062 had a girlfriend for four years at the time of 0:18:21.102 --> 0:18:25.262 the murder, so had been maintaining a normal relationship. He 0:18:25.782 --> 0:18:28.662 lived with his parents and his two brothers in public 0:18:28.662 --> 0:18:31.582 housing in Broad Meadows, and we did not get a 0:18:31.582 --> 0:18:34.982 great deal of information about that home life. But one 0:18:34.982 --> 0:18:37.542 of the reasons that I was interested in writing about 0:18:37.582 --> 0:18:39.942 the story at the level of detail that I did 0:18:40.142 --> 0:18:42.662 was we know that someone who offends in this way, 0:18:43.502 --> 0:18:48.102 but the extremity of human violence before they're even twenty 0:18:48.222 --> 0:18:51.462 years old, we're not seeing the same sort of failure 0:18:51.502 --> 0:18:55.262 of character or control that we see in older offenders, 0:18:55.622 --> 0:18:58.302 because we've got data that says that their brains haven't 0:18:58.302 --> 0:19:00.982 finished forming yet. So it speaks to these deeper and 0:19:01.022 --> 0:19:06.822 broader social and systemic failures. So I was very curious 0:19:06.902 --> 0:19:10.302 about his home life, his education, the kind of name 0:19:10.502 --> 0:19:12.982 or what he grew up in, what he had been 0:19:13.022 --> 0:19:17.182 exposed to, and we just didn't get that level of detail. 0:19:17.542 --> 0:19:20.502 But what we did get was shocking. There was evidence 0:19:20.542 --> 0:19:23.582 that he had routinely slept rough in parks or at 0:19:23.622 --> 0:19:27.102 the beach despite having this home with his family. There 0:19:27.142 --> 0:19:30.342 was a video submitted by his counsel of the police 0:19:30.422 --> 0:19:33.502 walk through at the time of executing the warrant, and 0:19:33.542 --> 0:19:35.462 we weren't allowed to see it, and I think the 0:19:35.542 --> 0:19:37.782 reason for that was to preserve kind of the privacy 0:19:37.822 --> 0:19:40.062 and dignity of the other family members who were not 0:19:40.182 --> 0:19:44.222 charged with anything. But the defense psychologist who had seen 0:19:44.262 --> 0:19:47.462 the video said it showed his home in a state 0:19:47.462 --> 0:19:52.662 of squalor that was the worst he'd seen in eighteen 0:19:52.782 --> 0:19:55.262 years of practice as a forensic psychologist. 0:19:55.382 --> 0:19:55.622 Wow. 0:19:56.022 --> 0:19:59.582 So that was something that was quite shocking, and it 0:19:59.662 --> 0:20:02.862 was described verbally. So, this is an environment where a 0:20:02.862 --> 0:20:06.542 family of five are living with multiple pets. It's so 0:20:06.902 --> 0:20:11.782 dense and cluttered with rubbish that it was very normal 0:20:11.862 --> 0:20:14.022 for Todd to be in his room and not know 0:20:14.222 --> 0:20:18.302 if anyone else was home. The level of squalor was 0:20:18.302 --> 0:20:22.382 so longstanding that the kitchen floor had collapsed and rotted away. 0:20:22.582 --> 0:20:25.422 And the cooking occurred in the bathroom near the toilet, 0:20:25.462 --> 0:20:28.982 which was clogged, and every room was stacked with rubbish 0:20:29.062 --> 0:20:34.862 and food waste. So that kind of complicated backstory changed 0:20:34.902 --> 0:20:38.102 the weather in the courtroom, and you could almost feel 0:20:38.222 --> 0:20:43.582 this kind of anger and rage not disappear, but it's 0:20:43.702 --> 0:20:48.542 complicated by this very complicated compassion for the child who 0:20:48.582 --> 0:20:52.382 had grown up in that environment, and it made it 0:20:52.462 --> 0:20:55.822 harder to see him as a monster. That's something I 0:20:55.982 --> 0:20:58.782 still think about five years later. I've been in that 0:20:58.982 --> 0:21:02.422 courtroom every day for the past three weeks because I'm 0:21:02.502 --> 0:21:05.382 serving a double murder, which I'm writing about for my 0:21:05.542 --> 0:21:08.942 next book, and Todd's case made such an impact on 0:21:09.022 --> 0:21:10.862 me that there are moments when I can only see 0:21:10.902 --> 0:21:13.582 everybody in the room as they were at the time, 0:21:13.662 --> 0:21:16.342 and it's always in the context of that planned mitigation 0:21:16.902 --> 0:21:20.462 where we learned these details about his backstory. 0:21:20.542 --> 0:21:22.502 It is a hard one to wrestle in your mind, 0:21:22.582 --> 0:21:25.302 because as you were telling me that, I was almost 0:21:25.342 --> 0:21:28.142 feeling a glimmer of I don't know what it was, 0:21:28.142 --> 0:21:30.662 compassion for him. But then in the same instance, I'm 0:21:30.662 --> 0:21:33.382 thinking about what he did to Uridicy, and I can't 0:21:33.422 --> 0:21:36.382 put the two together. So how do we look at 0:21:36.382 --> 0:21:39.982 what he experienced as a child in the context of 0:21:40.022 --> 0:21:42.262 what he did to another human being. 0:21:43.022 --> 0:21:46.662 Yeah, it's why I would have no desire to be 0:21:46.742 --> 0:21:50.742 a judge. They are extremely difficult jobs and reconciling this 0:21:51.462 --> 0:21:55.782 ethically and legally yet alone putting it into a narrative 0:21:55.822 --> 0:21:59.542 that people are going to understand in the public. Victoria 0:21:59.622 --> 0:22:03.702 is the same as every other Australian legal jurisdiction, and 0:22:03.742 --> 0:22:06.742 that the job of sentencing for a criminal offense is 0:22:06.742 --> 0:22:10.702 always to match the seriousness of that offense with a 0:22:10.822 --> 0:22:15.022 unit of time and punishment, and so seriousness and the 0:22:15.102 --> 0:22:20.142 laws understanding is the harm that the offender caused and 0:22:20.182 --> 0:22:24.502 their moral culpability for it. So how much control they had, 0:22:24.902 --> 0:22:28.542 what choices they had, and so it's not just a 0:22:28.542 --> 0:22:33.022 one size fits all proposition. So here, obviously the harm 0:22:33.102 --> 0:22:35.822 was the greatest known to the law, the violation of 0:22:35.902 --> 0:22:39.142 the body and the taking of a life. But Todd's 0:22:39.142 --> 0:22:42.142 culpability was much more complex. So the judge in this 0:22:42.262 --> 0:22:46.262 case was Justice Kay the Victorian Supreme Court, and the 0:22:46.302 --> 0:22:49.462 task before him was to knit together, or balance all 0:22:49.502 --> 0:22:52.542 of these factors which were pointing in different directions. So 0:22:52.582 --> 0:22:56.382 On the one hand, we had Todd's extreme youth, and 0:22:56.422 --> 0:22:59.782 there are special rules that apply for young offenders, and 0:23:00.182 --> 0:23:06.142 that's generally anyone under twenty six. There was also the 0:23:06.182 --> 0:23:10.142 psychological and medical considerations, which was he had had a 0:23:10.142 --> 0:23:14.822 long standing diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, and the question 0:23:14.942 --> 0:23:18.022 was how that did and did not interact with the 0:23:18.102 --> 0:23:21.982 other diagnoses that he had and this background of social 0:23:22.022 --> 0:23:26.702 deprivation that he had at home and his high volume 0:23:26.782 --> 0:23:31.222 exposure to violent porn. So this was a very complicated 0:23:31.302 --> 0:23:35.262 thing to unscramble. It's like unscrambling an omelet. So he 0:23:35.342 --> 0:23:40.702 has the autism spectrum disorder. He also had sexual sadism disorder, 0:23:40.942 --> 0:23:45.702 so that's a paraphilia and I didn't understand paraphilias before 0:23:45.702 --> 0:23:49.022 this case, but they are conditions in which sexual pleasure 0:23:49.542 --> 0:23:53.862 depends on fantasizing about and engaging in extreme sexual behavior. 0:23:54.182 --> 0:23:58.982 They become disorders when they threaten harm or cause distress. 0:23:59.622 --> 0:24:03.942 So the sexual sadism disorder that he had was characterized 0:24:03.982 --> 0:24:09.102