1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:29,862 Speaker 1: recorded on it's two minutes after midnight on Wednesday, June thirteenth, 4 00:00:29,902 --> 00:00:34,102 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and Eurydicy Dixon removes her shoes as she 5 00:00:34,222 --> 00:00:38,222 Speaker 1: strolls through Princess Parking Inner, Melbourne. She's just finished having 6 00:00:38,222 --> 00:00:41,102 Speaker 1: a few drinks with friends after performing a comedy show 7 00:00:41,142 --> 00:00:43,622 Speaker 1: at Highland of Bar. It went really well. 8 00:00:44,102 --> 00:00:45,702 Speaker 2: She feels on top of the world. 9 00:00:45,982 --> 00:00:49,382 Speaker 1: Finally, her career is really starting to take off. How exciting. 10 00:00:50,462 --> 00:00:53,742 Speaker 1: I'm nearly home. How about you, She texts her boyfriend 11 00:00:53,862 --> 00:00:56,542 Speaker 1: as she strolls across the soccer pitch drenched in moonlight. 12 00:00:57,742 --> 00:01:00,982 Speaker 1: Suddenly she's yanked back by her hair in the back 13 00:01:01,022 --> 00:01:04,462 Speaker 1: of her dress. A weight is on her chest, her 14 00:01:04,462 --> 00:01:10,102 Speaker 1: clothes are ripped open. She's being choked. Eurydicy never makes 15 00:01:10,142 --> 00:01:14,902 Speaker 1: it home. Her sister later shares in a victim impact statement, 16 00:01:14,942 --> 00:01:17,422 Speaker 1: how the trauma of her sister's murder has pervaded the 17 00:01:17,462 --> 00:01:21,222 Speaker 1: lives of everyone in their family, how her own enormous 18 00:01:21,262 --> 00:01:25,702 Speaker 1: grief has been immobilizing. Sadly, the strongest emotion I feel 19 00:01:25,742 --> 00:01:29,222 Speaker 1: is anger. She said, She's not the only one who 20 00:01:29,262 --> 00:01:34,382 Speaker 1: feels that. Eurytic's name is one most Australians know because 21 00:01:34,422 --> 00:01:37,142 Speaker 1: what happened to her on that average Wednesday night in 22 00:01:37,182 --> 00:01:50,262 Speaker 1: a Melbourne park will forever be etched into our cultural psyche. 23 00:01:53,382 --> 00:01:57,062 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations Amom 24 00:01:57,062 --> 00:02:00,702 Speaker 1: of Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 25 00:02:00,742 --> 00:02:02,982 Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 26 00:02:05,422 --> 00:02:14,142 Speaker 3: See let justice beacy and just did with me. I 27 00:02:14,302 --> 00:02:17,342 Speaker 3: will fight sad Amin free. 28 00:02:17,622 --> 00:02:22,662 Speaker 2: If we are we saying name, then you did not dine. 29 00:02:24,742 --> 00:02:28,742 Speaker 2: You see. 30 00:02:30,142 --> 00:02:32,342 Speaker 1: That song you just heard was written for twenty two 31 00:02:32,422 --> 00:02:35,582 Speaker 1: year old Euridice Dixon. It's a tribute to a beautiful 32 00:02:35,582 --> 00:02:38,062 Speaker 1: life gone too soon and for all the women lost 33 00:02:38,102 --> 00:02:42,422 Speaker 1: to violence. It's been six years today since the rape 34 00:02:42,502 --> 00:02:45,982 Speaker 1: and murder of the up and coming comedian, six years 35 00:02:46,422 --> 00:02:49,862 Speaker 1: since her boyfriend Tony and her family the horrendous details 36 00:02:49,902 --> 00:02:54,222 Speaker 1: of her death. Six years since Melbourne and Australia were 37 00:02:54,222 --> 00:02:58,382 Speaker 1: widely erupted with anger at the circumstances surrounding her murder. 38 00:02:58,862 --> 00:03:02,302 Speaker 3: We learned today of the terrible motive behind a murder 39 00:03:02,382 --> 00:03:03,862 Speaker 3: that shocked Melbourne. 40 00:03:03,542 --> 00:03:07,102 Speaker 1: The depraved crime that saw nationwide outrage and vigils in 41 00:03:07,142 --> 00:03:08,182 Speaker 1: the days that followed. 42 00:03:08,342 --> 00:03:10,822 Speaker 3: One of these marches is planned for this month and 43 00:03:10,942 --> 00:03:14,742 Speaker 3: has already attracted the interest of thousands of people. It's 44 00:03:14,782 --> 00:03:18,502 Speaker 3: being held in honor of Eurydice Dixon, who was murdered 45 00:03:18,582 --> 00:03:19,942 Speaker 3: here in Prince's Park. 46 00:03:20,422 --> 00:03:24,302 Speaker 1: A week after Eurydice's death, ten thousand people gathered at 47 00:03:24,342 --> 00:03:27,622 Speaker 1: a candle at vigil at the park where she was killed. Men, 48 00:03:27,902 --> 00:03:32,462 Speaker 1: women and children came with blankets and candles and flowers 49 00:03:33,022 --> 00:03:37,862 Speaker 1: and sat in silence beneath dimmed park lights at six pm. 50 00:03:38,222 --> 00:03:42,222 Speaker 1: Her killer remains behind bars. As recently as twenty twenty, 51 00:03:42,662 --> 00:03:45,982 Speaker 1: James Todd lost a bid to reduce his sentence. At 52 00:03:45,982 --> 00:03:48,782 Speaker 1: the moment, he won't be eligible for parole until he 53 00:03:48,862 --> 00:03:52,662 Speaker 1: is fifty four years old. His crimes were described in 54 00:03:52,742 --> 00:03:55,662 Speaker 1: court as being one of the worst examples of murder 55 00:03:55,902 --> 00:04:00,982 Speaker 1: and pure and unmitigated evil. Sarah Krasnysteine is an award 56 00:04:00,982 --> 00:04:03,422 Speaker 1: winning author who has covered and written about this case 57 00:04:03,462 --> 00:04:06,862 Speaker 1: in detail. She holds a doctorate in criminal law, and 58 00:04:06,942 --> 00:04:09,342 Speaker 1: in this episode was able to give us an insight 59 00:04:09,702 --> 00:04:12,902 Speaker 1: into just how US sentencing judge uses the information available 60 00:04:12,902 --> 00:04:18,622 Speaker 1: to them to determine an appropriate punishment. Sarah joins us. Now, 61 00:04:26,142 --> 00:04:28,662 Speaker 1: before we focus on eu decease death, I'd like to 62 00:04:28,662 --> 00:04:32,022 Speaker 1: talk about her life. What do we know about who 63 00:04:32,062 --> 00:04:34,262 Speaker 1: she was and what she was doing with herself in 64 00:04:34,262 --> 00:04:34,942 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. 65 00:04:35,902 --> 00:04:38,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we can't talk about the crime that 66 00:04:39,022 --> 00:04:42,662 Speaker 2: James Todd committed without talking about the woman he assaulted 67 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:44,902 Speaker 2: and killed, who was twenty two year old. You were 68 00:04:44,942 --> 00:04:48,782 Speaker 2: to see Dixon, but I'm mindful of what her father 69 00:04:48,942 --> 00:04:52,102 Speaker 2: said outside of the Supreme Court after Todd was sentenced, 70 00:04:52,142 --> 00:04:55,222 Speaker 2: which was that Euridice should be remembered for her wits, 71 00:04:55,262 --> 00:04:58,222 Speaker 2: her courage, and her kindness and not for her death. 72 00:04:58,902 --> 00:05:01,982 Speaker 2: So in my piece about the case for the Monthly, 73 00:05:02,062 --> 00:05:04,342 Speaker 2: I wrote that you ready to see Dixon was an artist, 74 00:05:04,462 --> 00:05:08,022 Speaker 2: a comedian, and a writer, and the place to memorialize 75 00:05:08,062 --> 00:05:11,342 Speaker 2: such an individual is not in the contact of her murder. 76 00:05:11,702 --> 00:05:13,702 Speaker 2: It's the last note of her song and it was 77 00:05:13,782 --> 00:05:17,622 Speaker 2: chosen by someone else. So at the same time, though, 78 00:05:17,982 --> 00:05:21,342 Speaker 2: it's important that she is remembered, so I'll just mention 79 00:05:21,382 --> 00:05:24,342 Speaker 2: a few things that I learned were important to her 80 00:05:24,502 --> 00:05:28,142 Speaker 2: through her family and friends at the trial and also 81 00:05:28,262 --> 00:05:30,982 Speaker 2: in the context of comedy show that they put on 82 00:05:31,022 --> 00:05:35,342 Speaker 2: in her honor shortly afterwards. She lived in Inner City Melbourne. 83 00:05:35,502 --> 00:05:38,742 Speaker 2: She had made her first debut at the Melbourne International 84 00:05:38,742 --> 00:05:43,662 Speaker 2: Comedy Festival in twenty eighteen, and the respect and love 85 00:05:43,822 --> 00:05:47,182 Speaker 2: that she inspired in her friends and family was palpable 86 00:05:47,222 --> 00:05:50,742 Speaker 2: in the courtroom. So I think it's also important to 87 00:05:50,822 --> 00:05:53,262 Speaker 2: note that at the time of her death she was 88 00:05:53,342 --> 00:05:56,662 Speaker 2: working on a show about radical empathy, and that it's 89 00:05:56,702 --> 00:05:59,622 Speaker 2: notable that the subject of that was the men who 90 00:05:59,702 --> 00:06:04,542 Speaker 2: felt left behind by feminism. I think it's also important 91 00:06:04,582 --> 00:06:07,662 Speaker 2: for anybody who's interested in learning more about her as 92 00:06:07,702 --> 00:06:10,862 Speaker 2: a person and not just a victim. Was a book 93 00:06:10,862 --> 00:06:14,622 Speaker 2: called No Apologies by Joanne Brookfield, which is about Australian 94 00:06:14,662 --> 00:06:18,542 Speaker 2: live comedy, and she actually describes one of Dixon's acts 95 00:06:18,582 --> 00:06:21,942 Speaker 2: in detail and gives her the respect that she deserved 96 00:06:21,942 --> 00:06:24,862 Speaker 2: as a writer and a comedian and a performer with 97 00:06:24,942 --> 00:06:28,822 Speaker 2: her own very funny, very unique and profound voice. 98 00:06:30,022 --> 00:06:34,022 Speaker 1: Comedy is such a hard profession, especially when you're young 99 00:06:34,062 --> 00:06:37,542 Speaker 1: and rising, which is what Dixon was doing. And on 100 00:06:37,862 --> 00:06:41,022 Speaker 1: the particular night Wednesday, June thirteen, twenty eighteen, she just 101 00:06:41,062 --> 00:06:44,142 Speaker 1: finished a comedy show at the Highlander Bar. From all accounts, 102 00:06:44,142 --> 00:06:46,262 Speaker 1: it sounds like she did a great job. She was 103 00:06:46,302 --> 00:06:49,262 Speaker 1: pretty happy with herself afterwards, chatting with her friends and 104 00:06:49,302 --> 00:06:53,622 Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and then she walked home after celebrating via 105 00:06:53,662 --> 00:06:56,782 Speaker 1: Melbourne's Princess Park. Can you tell us about that walk. 106 00:06:56,822 --> 00:06:59,982 Speaker 1: You've written about how she in fact enjoyed her commute. 107 00:06:59,982 --> 00:07:01,422 Speaker 1: She often took her shoes off. 108 00:07:02,422 --> 00:07:05,822 Speaker 2: It's a very Melbourne map that she covers. So she 109 00:07:05,862 --> 00:07:09,422 Speaker 2: had just said goodbye to her boyfriend Tony Magnuson after 110 00:07:09,702 --> 00:07:11,422 Speaker 2: the show, and they had a snack, kind of a 111 00:07:11,622 --> 00:07:14,982 Speaker 2: late night snack, and he got on a tram and 112 00:07:15,022 --> 00:07:18,142 Speaker 2: she started walking back to her place in the other direction, 113 00:07:18,582 --> 00:07:20,462 Speaker 2: and so they saw each other for the last time 114 00:07:20,542 --> 00:07:24,702 Speaker 2: outside of Linder's Street station. So it's a very Melbourne 115 00:07:24,942 --> 00:07:30,862 Speaker 2: iconic setting for what happens next she walks through the city. 116 00:07:31,942 --> 00:07:33,822 Speaker 2: There was a sense in the description and in the 117 00:07:33,862 --> 00:07:36,502 Speaker 2: camera footage that she was kind of open to the world. 118 00:07:37,102 --> 00:07:39,902 Speaker 2: And there was a mention which touched me kind of 119 00:07:39,982 --> 00:07:43,262 Speaker 2: as a writer, that she was seeing kind of speaking 120 00:07:43,302 --> 00:07:45,942 Speaker 2: to herself. And I think anyone who is a writer 121 00:07:46,222 --> 00:07:48,982 Speaker 2: or writes comedy or does performances, we do that all 122 00:07:49,022 --> 00:07:51,302 Speaker 2: the time, we're kind of living in a separate world 123 00:07:51,302 --> 00:07:51,622 Speaker 2: all the. 124 00:07:51,582 --> 00:07:54,982 Speaker 1: Time, saying things out loud to process them exactly. 125 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:57,982 Speaker 2: So that was quite familiar to me. So she walks 126 00:07:58,142 --> 00:08:02,022 Speaker 2: down through the city back towards the Inner North where 127 00:08:02,062 --> 00:08:06,622 Speaker 2: she was living, and it's right outside Flinders Street station 128 00:08:06,782 --> 00:08:10,462 Speaker 2: as well that James Todd happens to see her, and 129 00:08:10,582 --> 00:08:12,262 Speaker 2: that he starts following her home. 130 00:08:13,462 --> 00:08:17,862 Speaker 1: You know that park, Well, you've retraced yourridcey steps. Is 131 00:08:17,902 --> 00:08:21,222 Speaker 1: it a well lit place? Is it frequented by many 132 00:08:21,262 --> 00:08:22,462 Speaker 1: people at that time of night. 133 00:08:22,982 --> 00:08:25,342 Speaker 2: Well, this is part of the reason why this case 134 00:08:25,582 --> 00:08:27,942 Speaker 2: kind of grabbed me from the beginning, which was that 135 00:08:28,062 --> 00:08:33,542 Speaker 2: Princess Park where she spent her last moments. Like you mentioned, 136 00:08:33,542 --> 00:08:35,782 Speaker 2: she does take off her shoes when she answers the park, 137 00:08:35,822 --> 00:08:38,422 Speaker 2: which I think is this glorious image of, you know, 138 00:08:38,542 --> 00:08:43,662 Speaker 2: a woman who is embracing this quality that I think 139 00:08:43,742 --> 00:08:46,062 Speaker 2: is eroded in all of us by crimes like this, 140 00:08:46,222 --> 00:08:48,902 Speaker 2: which is that openness to life and a kind of 141 00:08:49,022 --> 00:08:52,182 Speaker 2: enjoyment of the moment in the place. And she's walking 142 00:08:52,182 --> 00:08:55,062 Speaker 2: across the grass of Princess Park, and yeah, it is 143 00:08:55,102 --> 00:08:58,182 Speaker 2: familiar to me. I trained for two marathons around it. 144 00:08:58,182 --> 00:09:00,702 Speaker 2: It's a three k radius, so it's not very big, 145 00:09:00,782 --> 00:09:03,102 Speaker 2: and there would be weekends where I'd run around it, 146 00:09:03,302 --> 00:09:06,022 Speaker 2: you know, ten times for training. I went to UNI 147 00:09:06,062 --> 00:09:11,062 Speaker 2: at Melbourne UNI nearby, so picnics and played a and 148 00:09:11,822 --> 00:09:15,342 Speaker 2: you know, exercise and relaxation. That has all happened in 149 00:09:15,382 --> 00:09:18,782 Speaker 2: my life in that space where yeah, she had her 150 00:09:18,822 --> 00:09:21,862 Speaker 2: last living moments and then where she was violently attacked. 151 00:09:22,742 --> 00:09:24,742 Speaker 1: Can you talk us through what happened to you? 152 00:09:24,862 --> 00:09:25,182 Speaker 2: To see? 153 00:09:25,222 --> 00:09:27,502 Speaker 1: After midnight on that evening, so. 154 00:09:27,622 --> 00:09:31,462 Speaker 2: James had been following her for about an hour since 155 00:09:31,462 --> 00:09:34,862 Speaker 2: he saw her outside of Flunder Street station. She was walking. 156 00:09:34,902 --> 00:09:37,502 Speaker 2: He was keeping a distance behind her. If she stopped 157 00:09:37,542 --> 00:09:40,262 Speaker 2: to look at something or at a crosswalk, he would 158 00:09:40,302 --> 00:09:42,502 Speaker 2: stop and roll a cigarette and pretend to just be 159 00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:44,622 Speaker 2: hanging out. But he had his eyes on her the 160 00:09:44,662 --> 00:09:46,902 Speaker 2: whole time. And the footage of that is quite chilling 161 00:09:47,462 --> 00:09:50,662 Speaker 2: because it is very much like a hunter's stalking prey. 162 00:09:51,822 --> 00:09:55,382 Speaker 2: Around midnight, she texted her partner that she was almost 163 00:09:55,382 --> 00:09:57,262 Speaker 2: home and to see if he had made it home 164 00:09:57,302 --> 00:10:01,422 Speaker 2: safely as well. She was nine hundred meters from her 165 00:10:01,622 --> 00:10:05,982 Speaker 2: home when she was walking across one of the soccer 166 00:10:06,022 --> 00:10:10,382 Speaker 2: pitches of the park and Todd attacked her from behind, 167 00:10:10,462 --> 00:10:15,502 Speaker 2: and he sexually assaulted her and strangled her, and she 168 00:10:15,582 --> 00:10:18,142 Speaker 2: was killed not even a kilometer from her house. 169 00:10:19,782 --> 00:10:23,622 Speaker 1: She was found the next morning, very early in the morning. 170 00:10:24,622 --> 00:10:25,622 Speaker 1: How did they find her? 171 00:10:26,302 --> 00:10:26,902 Speaker 3: So she was. 172 00:10:26,942 --> 00:10:31,502 Speaker 2: Killed just after midnight and she was found just before 173 00:10:31,542 --> 00:10:35,942 Speaker 2: three am by a man who was like she had 174 00:10:35,982 --> 00:10:40,942 Speaker 2: been returning home from work. He was just a passer 175 00:10:40,982 --> 00:10:42,982 Speaker 2: by and he was riding his bike across the soccer 176 00:10:43,102 --> 00:10:45,462 Speaker 2: pitches in the dark, and he saw a figure on 177 00:10:45,502 --> 00:10:48,142 Speaker 2: the ground and he stopped to check on her, and 178 00:10:48,182 --> 00:10:50,422 Speaker 2: then he called Triple O when he found that she 179 00:10:50,502 --> 00:10:54,382 Speaker 2: wasn't responsive, and he tried to administer CPR. And in 180 00:10:54,422 --> 00:10:58,982 Speaker 2: the sentencing hearing, when we heard that evidence, it was 181 00:11:00,182 --> 00:11:03,822 Speaker 2: immensely reassuring to know that, you know, people will stop 182 00:11:04,102 --> 00:11:07,302 Speaker 2: and he doesn't know what happened to her, and when 183 00:11:07,342 --> 00:11:09,462 Speaker 2: he can kind of see that it's been violent, that 184 00:11:09,582 --> 00:11:11,502 Speaker 2: doesn't stop her from trying to help. So that was 185 00:11:11,582 --> 00:11:14,582 Speaker 2: quite life affirming. At the same time, there is something 186 00:11:15,062 --> 00:11:17,662 Speaker 2: quite dark in the fact that he was going to 187 00:11:17,782 --> 00:11:20,302 Speaker 2: just walk home in the same way that women have 188 00:11:20,422 --> 00:11:23,062 Speaker 2: been and would be again. After this case was in 189 00:11:23,142 --> 00:11:25,262 Speaker 2: the media, warrened that we're not allowed to do. 190 00:11:26,462 --> 00:11:28,302 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the evolution of the media 191 00:11:28,382 --> 00:11:30,582 Speaker 1: coverage of this, but first of all, let's just talk 192 00:11:30,622 --> 00:11:33,062 Speaker 1: about that initial coverage, because I'm imagining it would have 193 00:11:33,102 --> 00:11:38,182 Speaker 1: been women found murdered in local Melbourne park, signs of 194 00:11:38,182 --> 00:11:40,142 Speaker 1: sexual assault, it would have been all of those initial 195 00:11:40,222 --> 00:11:42,942 Speaker 1: kind of reports. Do you remember breaking how did it 196 00:11:42,982 --> 00:11:43,622 Speaker 1: make you feel? 197 00:11:44,622 --> 00:11:47,982 Speaker 2: Yeah? I remember that day after she had been found, 198 00:11:48,302 --> 00:11:52,902 Speaker 2: and he confessed fairly quickly, and the day after that 199 00:11:53,022 --> 00:11:57,102 Speaker 2: he was brought into the magistrates court and charge. So 200 00:11:57,142 --> 00:12:00,422 Speaker 2: it was quite quick. And at that early stage, all 201 00:12:00,542 --> 00:12:04,862 Speaker 2: that we knew was that this terrible crime had happened 202 00:12:05,142 --> 00:12:09,302 Speaker 2: in Princess Park in the middle of the city, and 203 00:12:09,502 --> 00:12:14,342 Speaker 2: the victim was extremely young, and the mind raises with 204 00:12:14,622 --> 00:12:17,982 Speaker 2: all of the tropes of who the stranger in the 205 00:12:18,062 --> 00:12:22,782 Speaker 2: dark might be, a man with a bellaclava and a knife. 206 00:12:23,542 --> 00:12:26,182 Speaker 2: We think that it was going to be an older guy. 207 00:12:26,622 --> 00:12:30,582 Speaker 2: So my curiosity was, oh, my gosh, this terrible thing 208 00:12:30,622 --> 00:12:34,142 Speaker 2: has happened in one of the collective Melbourne places. I 209 00:12:34,222 --> 00:12:37,822 Speaker 2: wonder who it was. I can't believe how young this 210 00:12:37,942 --> 00:12:41,102 Speaker 2: victim is. And so I showed up at the magistrates 211 00:12:41,182 --> 00:12:44,262 Speaker 2: court for that reason. And you know, we see James 212 00:12:44,302 --> 00:12:46,462 Speaker 2: Todd walk out and he was so young. 213 00:12:47,302 --> 00:12:49,222 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was nineteen. 214 00:12:49,422 --> 00:12:53,542 Speaker 2: Surprisingly young and a young nineteen. The way he carried himself, 215 00:12:53,662 --> 00:12:58,182 Speaker 2: the kind of baby fat on his face, he presented 216 00:12:58,262 --> 00:12:59,222 Speaker 2: like a child. 217 00:13:00,622 --> 00:13:03,422 Speaker 1: You mentioned that it all happened quite quickly. Let's talk 218 00:13:03,462 --> 00:13:07,582 Speaker 1: about that her killer surrendered to police. How did that 219 00:13:07,622 --> 00:13:08,302 Speaker 1: all unfold? 220 00:13:09,022 --> 00:13:12,702 Speaker 2: So one of the many chilling things about this crime 221 00:13:12,862 --> 00:13:15,342 Speaker 2: is that the day of the murder had been very 222 00:13:15,382 --> 00:13:18,462 Speaker 2: normal for James Todd, and so was the night after 223 00:13:18,502 --> 00:13:22,822 Speaker 2: the murderer. So he raped and killed Ort to see Dixon, 224 00:13:23,062 --> 00:13:25,862 Speaker 2: and then he left the park with her phone, and 225 00:13:25,942 --> 00:13:29,782 Speaker 2: he slept on a bench at a very nearby train station. 226 00:13:31,182 --> 00:13:35,782 Speaker 2: And then he actually returns to Princess Park just before 227 00:13:36,062 --> 00:13:39,702 Speaker 2: five am, where he was moved on by the police 228 00:13:39,822 --> 00:13:43,782 Speaker 2: who were trying to establish a crime scene. He then 229 00:13:44,342 --> 00:13:47,102 Speaker 2: takes a tram back into the city. He eats a 230 00:13:47,142 --> 00:13:50,462 Speaker 2: pie and has a coffee, and then he takes the 231 00:13:50,502 --> 00:13:54,822 Speaker 2: train home and he's back home by around quarter to 232 00:13:54,862 --> 00:14:00,102 Speaker 2: seven in the morning, googling a violent porn on his iPad. 233 00:14:01,102 --> 00:14:04,382 Speaker 2: He also, and we know this from the police search, 234 00:14:05,062 --> 00:14:10,142 Speaker 2: that he was googling for Princess Park. He was trying 235 00:14:10,142 --> 00:14:13,382 Speaker 2: to find of news about the crime had broken yet, 236 00:14:13,702 --> 00:14:17,382 Speaker 2: and so those kind of news searches are interspersed with 237 00:14:18,102 --> 00:14:23,302 Speaker 2: searches for rape and murder porn that night. So the 238 00:14:23,382 --> 00:14:26,102 Speaker 2: day passes and around six point thirty in the evening, 239 00:14:26,262 --> 00:14:28,382 Speaker 2: he has a friend call him and say that his 240 00:14:28,462 --> 00:14:31,902 Speaker 2: face is on the news. So they've released the CCTV 241 00:14:32,462 --> 00:14:36,502 Speaker 2: footage which shows him walking through the city, just outside 242 00:14:36,502 --> 00:14:40,702 Speaker 2: Melbourne UNI. And that's when he googles broad Meadows police 243 00:14:40,702 --> 00:14:43,382 Speaker 2: station number and he calls the police saying that it's 244 00:14:43,422 --> 00:14:45,782 Speaker 2: him on the news, but he wasn't involved in any death. 245 00:14:46,342 --> 00:14:48,862 Speaker 2: And he's driven to the station by his girlfriend. They've 246 00:14:48,902 --> 00:14:52,022 Speaker 2: been together four years at that point, his girlfriend and 247 00:14:52,062 --> 00:14:55,622 Speaker 2: her mother and it's the girlfriend's mother who says, you know, 248 00:14:55,662 --> 00:14:57,902 Speaker 2: you better call your own mom and have her come down. 249 00:14:58,542 --> 00:15:00,782 Speaker 2: And that's when he's interviewed. 250 00:15:01,822 --> 00:15:05,662 Speaker 1: And in that interview he does crack. But it takes 251 00:15:05,662 --> 00:15:06,582 Speaker 1: a while, doesn't it. 252 00:15:07,222 --> 00:15:10,382 Speaker 2: Yeah, he kind of maintains his denial over one hundred 253 00:15:10,542 --> 00:15:12,902 Speaker 2: of questions. It sounds like it was a very long time, 254 00:15:12,942 --> 00:15:15,142 Speaker 2: but it actually would have been I think a fairly 255 00:15:15,782 --> 00:15:20,782 Speaker 2: standard police interview. So they're asking him all about his day, 256 00:15:21,422 --> 00:15:24,942 Speaker 2: and he maintains his innocence for I think was over 257 00:15:24,982 --> 00:15:29,262 Speaker 2: six hundred questions. And then the detective explains to him 258 00:15:29,742 --> 00:15:32,062 Speaker 2: how the DNA comparison is going to work when they 259 00:15:32,102 --> 00:15:34,862 Speaker 2: do it, and that probably if he has anything to 260 00:15:34,902 --> 00:15:38,222 Speaker 2: tell them, the earlier the better. And so he says, 261 00:15:38,742 --> 00:15:41,422 Speaker 2: don't worry about the DNA. I did it and I'll 262 00:15:41,422 --> 00:15:44,062 Speaker 2: tell you everything. But of course then what he says 263 00:15:44,462 --> 00:15:45,182 Speaker 2: is not the truth. 264 00:15:46,102 --> 00:15:46,862 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 265 00:15:47,942 --> 00:15:52,622 Speaker 2: So he had a kind of elaborate story. He had 266 00:15:52,662 --> 00:15:55,862 Speaker 2: just wanted to rob her. He wasn't stalking her with 267 00:15:56,062 --> 00:15:59,542 Speaker 2: intent to rape. That was something that just popped into 268 00:15:59,582 --> 00:16:03,182 Speaker 2: his mind when he was on the ground with her 269 00:16:03,622 --> 00:16:08,542 Speaker 2: after this botched attempt to rob her. That the strangulation 270 00:16:08,942 --> 00:16:11,382 Speaker 2: was an an attempt to stop her crying out about 271 00:16:11,382 --> 00:16:15,262 Speaker 2: the robbery, and it matched none of what subsequently came 272 00:16:15,342 --> 00:16:17,262 Speaker 2: to light about his motivation. 273 00:16:22,382 --> 00:16:26,062 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimy Bass. 274 00:16:26,702 --> 00:16:30,822 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Sarah Krasmustin about the murder of Youriddicy Dixon. 275 00:16:31,542 --> 00:16:34,862 Speaker 1: Up next, we examine James Todd's sentencing hearing and his 276 00:16:34,982 --> 00:16:45,822 Speaker 1: sexual sadism diagnosis. We know he eventually pleads guilty. So 277 00:16:45,862 --> 00:16:48,822 Speaker 1: does that mean he does go with the prosecution and 278 00:16:48,862 --> 00:16:51,222 Speaker 1: the police's version of events eventually. 279 00:16:51,302 --> 00:16:54,662 Speaker 2: Well, yes and no. It means that for the purposes 280 00:16:54,702 --> 00:16:57,822 Speaker 2: of what can be proved in terms of his conduct 281 00:16:57,942 --> 00:17:02,462 Speaker 2: and his intention, that there is not a viable argument 282 00:17:02,622 --> 00:17:06,102 Speaker 2: in favor of his innocence for the murder charge. But 283 00:17:06,782 --> 00:17:09,502 Speaker 2: motivation is always an internal thing. The lord has to 284 00:17:09,582 --> 00:17:13,022 Speaker 2: just prove that that he intended to kill her or 285 00:17:13,062 --> 00:17:17,102 Speaker 2: that he intended to cause her serious harm. He was 286 00:17:17,302 --> 00:17:21,182 Speaker 2: quite vigorous at the sentencing hearing in saying that he 287 00:17:21,262 --> 00:17:24,782 Speaker 2: did not have this rape and murder of fantasy that 288 00:17:24,862 --> 00:17:27,662 Speaker 2: he was acting on. That was not something that was 289 00:17:27,702 --> 00:17:30,702 Speaker 2: in his mind when he was stalking her, because in 290 00:17:30,782 --> 00:17:34,262 Speaker 2: terms of his moral culpability, killing someone at the service 291 00:17:34,302 --> 00:17:38,622 Speaker 2: of a violence sexual fantasy is incredibly aggravating and serious, 292 00:17:39,062 --> 00:17:42,142 Speaker 2: and if it happened in a fit of panic or 293 00:17:42,182 --> 00:17:45,382 Speaker 2: what have you, it's still, of course terrible, but violence 294 00:17:45,422 --> 00:17:48,462 Speaker 2: is slightly different. Can you tell us a. 295 00:17:48,382 --> 00:17:51,262 Speaker 1: Bit more about him? We know he's nineteen, we know 296 00:17:51,302 --> 00:17:53,582 Speaker 1: he has a girlfriend. What else is there to know 297 00:17:53,622 --> 00:17:54,462 Speaker 1: about James Todd. 298 00:17:55,222 --> 00:17:58,102 Speaker 2: So one of the things that was striking to me, 299 00:17:58,182 --> 00:18:00,822 Speaker 2: and I think to many given the activation in the 300 00:18:00,862 --> 00:18:03,502 Speaker 2: media around this case, was the fact that obviously, as 301 00:18:03,502 --> 00:18:05,742 Speaker 2: I said, he's so young at the time, and that 302 00:18:05,822 --> 00:18:09,182 Speaker 2: he had no prior criminal history, so this offending was 303 00:18:09,182 --> 00:18:12,182 Speaker 2: the first the criminal justice system had ever seen of him. 304 00:18:12,862 --> 00:18:15,502 Speaker 2: We know that he was about to finish a hospitality 305 00:18:15,742 --> 00:18:18,902 Speaker 2: training course in the city, and like I said, he'd 306 00:18:18,902 --> 00:18:21,062 Speaker 2: had a girlfriend for four years at the time of 307 00:18:21,102 --> 00:18:25,262 Speaker 2: the murder, so had been maintaining a normal relationship. He 308 00:18:25,782 --> 00:18:28,662 Speaker 2: lived with his parents and his two brothers in public 309 00:18:28,662 --> 00:18:31,582 Speaker 2: housing in Broad Meadows, and we did not get a 310 00:18:31,582 --> 00:18:34,982 Speaker 2: great deal of information about that home life. But one 311 00:18:34,982 --> 00:18:37,542 Speaker 2: of the reasons that I was interested in writing about 312 00:18:37,582 --> 00:18:39,942 Speaker 2: the story at the level of detail that I did 313 00:18:40,142 --> 00:18:42,662 Speaker 2: was we know that someone who offends in this way, 314 00:18:43,502 --> 00:18:48,102 Speaker 2: but the extremity of human violence before they're even twenty 315 00:18:48,222 --> 00:18:51,462 Speaker 2: years old, we're not seeing the same sort of failure 316 00:18:51,502 --> 00:18:55,262 Speaker 2: of character or control that we see in older offenders, 317 00:18:55,622 --> 00:18:58,302 Speaker 2: because we've got data that says that their brains haven't 318 00:18:58,302 --> 00:19:00,982 Speaker 2: finished forming yet. So it speaks to these deeper and 319 00:19:01,022 --> 00:19:06,822 Speaker 2: broader social and systemic failures. So I was very curious 320 00:19:06,902 --> 00:19:10,302 Speaker 2: about his home life, his education, the kind of name 321 00:19:10,502 --> 00:19:12,982 Speaker 2: or what he grew up in, what he had been 322 00:19:13,022 --> 00:19:17,182 Speaker 2: exposed to, and we just didn't get that level of detail. 323 00:19:17,542 --> 00:19:20,502 Speaker 2: But what we did get was shocking. There was evidence 324 00:19:20,542 --> 00:19:23,582 Speaker 2: that he had routinely slept rough in parks or at 325 00:19:23,622 --> 00:19:27,102 Speaker 2: the beach despite having this home with his family. There 326 00:19:27,142 --> 00:19:30,342 Speaker 2: was a video submitted by his counsel of the police 327 00:19:30,422 --> 00:19:33,502 Speaker 2: walk through at the time of executing the warrant, and 328 00:19:33,542 --> 00:19:35,462 Speaker 2: we weren't allowed to see it, and I think the 329 00:19:35,542 --> 00:19:37,782 Speaker 2: reason for that was to preserve kind of the privacy 330 00:19:37,822 --> 00:19:40,062 Speaker 2: and dignity of the other family members who were not 331 00:19:40,182 --> 00:19:44,222 Speaker 2: charged with anything. But the defense psychologist who had seen 332 00:19:44,262 --> 00:19:47,462 Speaker 2: the video said it showed his home in a state 333 00:19:47,462 --> 00:19:52,662 Speaker 2: of squalor that was the worst he'd seen in eighteen 334 00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:55,262 Speaker 2: years of practice as a forensic psychologist. 335 00:19:55,382 --> 00:19:55,622 Speaker 3: Wow. 336 00:19:56,022 --> 00:19:59,582 Speaker 2: So that was something that was quite shocking, and it 337 00:19:59,662 --> 00:20:02,862 Speaker 2: was described verbally. So, this is an environment where a 338 00:20:02,862 --> 00:20:06,542 Speaker 2: family of five are living with multiple pets. It's so 339 00:20:06,902 --> 00:20:11,782 Speaker 2: dense and cluttered with rubbish that it was very normal 340 00:20:11,862 --> 00:20:14,022 Speaker 2: for Todd to be in his room and not know 341 00:20:14,222 --> 00:20:18,302 Speaker 2: if anyone else was home. The level of squalor was 342 00:20:18,302 --> 00:20:22,382 Speaker 2: so longstanding that the kitchen floor had collapsed and rotted away. 343 00:20:22,582 --> 00:20:25,422 Speaker 2: And the cooking occurred in the bathroom near the toilet, 344 00:20:25,462 --> 00:20:28,982 Speaker 2: which was clogged, and every room was stacked with rubbish 345 00:20:29,062 --> 00:20:34,862 Speaker 2: and food waste. So that kind of complicated backstory changed 346 00:20:34,902 --> 00:20:38,102 Speaker 2: the weather in the courtroom, and you could almost feel 347 00:20:38,222 --> 00:20:43,582 Speaker 2: this kind of anger and rage not disappear, but it's 348 00:20:43,702 --> 00:20:48,542 Speaker 2: complicated by this very complicated compassion for the child who 349 00:20:48,582 --> 00:20:52,382 Speaker 2: had grown up in that environment, and it made it 350 00:20:52,462 --> 00:20:55,822 Speaker 2: harder to see him as a monster. That's something I 351 00:20:55,982 --> 00:20:58,782 Speaker 2: still think about five years later. I've been in that 352 00:20:58,982 --> 00:21:02,422 Speaker 2: courtroom every day for the past three weeks because I'm 353 00:21:02,502 --> 00:21:05,382 Speaker 2: serving a double murder, which I'm writing about for my 354 00:21:05,542 --> 00:21:08,942 Speaker 2: next book, and Todd's case made such an impact on 355 00:21:09,022 --> 00:21:10,862 Speaker 2: me that there are moments when I can only see 356 00:21:10,902 --> 00:21:13,582 Speaker 2: everybody in the room as they were at the time, 357 00:21:13,662 --> 00:21:16,342 Speaker 2: and it's always in the context of that planned mitigation 358 00:21:16,902 --> 00:21:20,462 Speaker 2: where we learned these details about his backstory. 359 00:21:20,542 --> 00:21:22,502 Speaker 1: It is a hard one to wrestle in your mind, 360 00:21:22,582 --> 00:21:25,302 Speaker 1: because as you were telling me that, I was almost 361 00:21:25,342 --> 00:21:28,142 Speaker 1: feeling a glimmer of I don't know what it was, 362 00:21:28,142 --> 00:21:30,662 Speaker 1: compassion for him. But then in the same instance, I'm 363 00:21:30,662 --> 00:21:33,382 Speaker 1: thinking about what he did to Uridicy, and I can't 364 00:21:33,422 --> 00:21:36,382 Speaker 1: put the two together. So how do we look at 365 00:21:36,382 --> 00:21:39,982 Speaker 1: what he experienced as a child in the context of 366 00:21:40,022 --> 00:21:42,262 Speaker 1: what he did to another human being. 367 00:21:43,022 --> 00:21:46,662 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's why I would have no desire to be 368 00:21:46,742 --> 00:21:50,742 Speaker 2: a judge. They are extremely difficult jobs and reconciling this 369 00:21:51,462 --> 00:21:55,782 Speaker 2: ethically and legally yet alone putting it into a narrative 370 00:21:55,822 --> 00:21:59,542 Speaker 2: that people are going to understand in the public. Victoria 371 00:21:59,622 --> 00:22:03,702 Speaker 2: is the same as every other Australian legal jurisdiction, and 372 00:22:03,742 --> 00:22:06,742 Speaker 2: that the job of sentencing for a criminal offense is 373 00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:10,702 Speaker 2: always to match the seriousness of that offense with a 374 00:22:10,822 --> 00:22:15,022 Speaker 2: unit of time and punishment, and so seriousness and the 375 00:22:15,102 --> 00:22:20,142 Speaker 2: laws understanding is the harm that the offender caused and 376 00:22:20,182 --> 00:22:24,502 Speaker 2: their moral culpability for it. So how much control they had, 377 00:22:24,902 --> 00:22:28,542 Speaker 2: what choices they had, and so it's not just a 378 00:22:28,542 --> 00:22:33,022 Speaker 2: one size fits all proposition. So here, obviously the harm 379 00:22:33,102 --> 00:22:35,822 Speaker 2: was the greatest known to the law, the violation of 380 00:22:35,902 --> 00:22:39,142 Speaker 2: the body and the taking of a life. But Todd's 381 00:22:39,142 --> 00:22:42,142 Speaker 2: culpability was much more complex. So the judge in this 382 00:22:42,262 --> 00:22:46,262 Speaker 2: case was Justice Kay the Victorian Supreme Court, and the 383 00:22:46,302 --> 00:22:49,462 Speaker 2: task before him was to knit together, or balance all 384 00:22:49,502 --> 00:22:52,542 Speaker 2: of these factors which were pointing in different directions. So 385 00:22:52,582 --> 00:22:56,382 Speaker 2: On the one hand, we had Todd's extreme youth, and 386 00:22:56,422 --> 00:22:59,782 Speaker 2: there are special rules that apply for young offenders, and 387 00:23:00,182 --> 00:23:06,142 Speaker 2: that's generally anyone under twenty six. There was also the 388 00:23:06,182 --> 00:23:10,142 Speaker 2: psychological and medical considerations, which was he had had a 389 00:23:10,142 --> 00:23:14,822 Speaker 2: long standing diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, and the question 390 00:23:14,942 --> 00:23:18,022 Speaker 2: was how that did and did not interact with the 391 00:23:18,102 --> 00:23:21,982 Speaker 2: other diagnoses that he had and this background of social 392 00:23:22,022 --> 00:23:26,702 Speaker 2: deprivation that he had at home and his high volume 393 00:23:26,782 --> 00:23:31,222 Speaker 2: exposure to violent porn. So this was a very complicated 394 00:23:31,302 --> 00:23:35,262 Speaker 2: thing to unscramble. It's like unscrambling an omelet. So he 395 00:23:35,342 --> 00:23:40,702 Speaker 2: has the autism spectrum disorder. He also had sexual sadism disorder, 396 00:23:40,942 --> 00:23:45,702 Speaker 2: so that's a paraphilia and I didn't understand paraphilias before 397 00:23:45,702 --> 00:23:49,022 Speaker 2: this case, but they are conditions in which sexual pleasure 398 00:23:49,542 --> 00:23:53,862 Speaker 2: depends on fantasizing about and engaging in extreme sexual behavior. 399 00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:58,982 Speaker 2: They become disorders when they threaten harm or cause distress. 400 00:23:59,622 --> 00:24:03,942 Speaker 2: So the sexual sadism disorder that he had was characterized 401 00:24:03,982 --> 00:24:09,102 Speaker 2: by driving sexual pleasure through causing witnessing or fantasying about 402 00:24:09,102 --> 00:24:14,742 Speaker 2: a non consenting indivisuals pain, and both the forensic psychologist 403 00:24:14,902 --> 00:24:18,542 Speaker 2: for the prosecution and the forensic psychologist for the defense 404 00:24:18,862 --> 00:24:22,942 Speaker 2: agreed that it was not possible to treat the paraphilic 405 00:24:23,022 --> 00:24:27,142 Speaker 2: interest that was underlying the disorder, So that was something 406 00:24:27,222 --> 00:24:32,982 Speaker 2: that spoke to his extreme dangerousness to the community going forward. 407 00:24:33,782 --> 00:24:37,462 Speaker 2: On the other hand, the way it interacted with his 408 00:24:38,062 --> 00:24:43,062 Speaker 2: autism disorder was something that would have normally deserved mitigation 409 00:24:43,382 --> 00:24:46,382 Speaker 2: because these are things that are outside of his control. 410 00:24:47,182 --> 00:24:50,062 Speaker 2: And again it was mentioned in the court, and I 411 00:24:50,062 --> 00:24:52,902 Speaker 2: think it's important to always mention in the discussion that 412 00:24:53,142 --> 00:24:56,982 Speaker 2: there's nothing about that autism diagnosis that meant that he 413 00:24:57,062 --> 00:25:01,822 Speaker 2: would be violent. Was this jew of factors that were 414 00:25:01,902 --> 00:25:04,982 Speaker 2: very personal to him and that they interacted in a 415 00:25:05,022 --> 00:25:08,062 Speaker 2: particular way, And so that's what the court was looking at. 416 00:25:08,582 --> 00:25:11,462 Speaker 1: Can I ask the sexual site is disorder? Had he 417 00:25:11,542 --> 00:25:14,502 Speaker 1: been diagnosed with that prior to all of these proceedings. 418 00:25:14,502 --> 00:25:16,342 Speaker 1: Did we know that he had this for a while. 419 00:25:17,382 --> 00:25:21,102 Speaker 2: No, it was only in the context of the sessions 420 00:25:21,142 --> 00:25:24,462 Speaker 2: that he'd had preparatory to the sentencing place, so to 421 00:25:24,542 --> 00:25:28,422 Speaker 2: see how he was built and what was relevant. He 422 00:25:28,462 --> 00:25:33,262 Speaker 2: had had previous interactions with child psychologists from a very 423 00:25:33,302 --> 00:25:36,222 Speaker 2: young age to deal with social and emotional issues. And 424 00:25:36,462 --> 00:25:40,342 Speaker 2: mood regulation issues. But no, this didn't come out. And indeed, 425 00:25:40,342 --> 00:25:42,622 Speaker 2: the very nature of it was that it was quite 426 00:25:42,702 --> 00:25:46,622 Speaker 2: hidden before it reached the stage. And as part of 427 00:25:46,662 --> 00:25:50,302 Speaker 2: why it was so terribly dangerous is that no indication 428 00:25:50,342 --> 00:25:53,262 Speaker 2: of it had been picked up previously in any of 429 00:25:53,302 --> 00:25:54,182 Speaker 2: these sessions. 430 00:25:54,182 --> 00:25:58,862 Speaker 1: Did Todd share any insights into why he picked you 431 00:25:59,022 --> 00:26:01,742 Speaker 1: to see how he picked it, why he decided to 432 00:26:01,742 --> 00:26:02,822 Speaker 1: do what he did. 433 00:26:03,862 --> 00:26:06,862 Speaker 2: Not in the context really of the sessions. But there 434 00:26:06,902 --> 00:26:09,822 Speaker 2: was a phone call that he'd had that was recorded, 435 00:26:09,862 --> 00:26:13,742 Speaker 2: of course from prison to his father, in which he 436 00:26:13,862 --> 00:26:17,342 Speaker 2: spoke about the living out of this fantasy and that 437 00:26:17,422 --> 00:26:20,222 Speaker 2: it hadn't matched what he had hoped and that he 438 00:26:20,262 --> 00:26:22,742 Speaker 2: hoped it would be better next time, which was a 439 00:26:22,862 --> 00:26:26,422 Speaker 2: distressing thing to hear. But no, not that I know of. 440 00:26:27,582 --> 00:26:30,062 Speaker 1: Can you expand more on those victim impact statements? They're 441 00:26:30,102 --> 00:26:32,462 Speaker 1: such an important part of the process where the family 442 00:26:32,462 --> 00:26:35,382 Speaker 1: gets to have their say before a sentence is handed down. 443 00:26:36,622 --> 00:26:41,022 Speaker 2: Yeah. So in Victoria, at least anyone who is affected 444 00:26:41,022 --> 00:26:44,782 Speaker 2: by the crime can file a victim impact statement and 445 00:26:44,862 --> 00:26:47,422 Speaker 2: those can be kept private for the judge to read, 446 00:26:47,542 --> 00:26:51,022 Speaker 2: or they can be read out in court. And Dixon's 447 00:26:51,022 --> 00:26:54,422 Speaker 2: sister read out hers, and she stood next to their brother, 448 00:26:55,302 --> 00:27:00,102 Speaker 2: and she described understandably how the trauma of her sister's 449 00:27:00,182 --> 00:27:04,382 Speaker 2: murder had pervaded the lives of the family, and the 450 00:27:04,422 --> 00:27:07,622 Speaker 2: immobilizing impact of her grief on her own life, how 451 00:27:07,662 --> 00:27:09,422 Speaker 2: it had shifted the course of her life, and she 452 00:27:09,502 --> 00:27:12,942 Speaker 2: spoke with madness about her anger, which I think all 453 00:27:12,942 --> 00:27:17,662 Speaker 2: of us can understand. Dixon's partner, Tony Magnuson, read out 454 00:27:17,702 --> 00:27:21,742 Speaker 2: his statement, and he similarly explained kind of the shark 455 00:27:21,822 --> 00:27:26,622 Speaker 2: waves of the loss in his own life, and they 456 00:27:26,662 --> 00:27:29,662 Speaker 2: are extremely difficult things to read yet alone to be 457 00:27:29,702 --> 00:27:32,982 Speaker 2: in the room for, because you're or I am filled 458 00:27:32,982 --> 00:27:35,182 Speaker 2: with the kind of a cute awareness that, but for 459 00:27:35,222 --> 00:27:36,942 Speaker 2: the grace of whatever you want to call it, that 460 00:27:37,022 --> 00:27:41,262 Speaker 2: could be me at any moment. And yeah, you see 461 00:27:41,302 --> 00:27:48,302 Speaker 2: the great cost of the individual example of these staggering 462 00:27:48,302 --> 00:27:50,582 Speaker 2: statistics about violence against women. 463 00:27:51,862 --> 00:27:53,782 Speaker 1: I was quite moved by the way her dad spoke 464 00:27:54,342 --> 00:27:56,902 Speaker 1: in and around the court case because he actually shared 465 00:27:57,742 --> 00:28:01,062 Speaker 1: compassion towards Todd's family as well, which he doesn't have 466 00:28:01,142 --> 00:28:03,182 Speaker 1: to do and which would have been so hard when 467 00:28:03,262 --> 00:28:05,622 Speaker 1: everything is still so fresh. 468 00:28:05,702 --> 00:28:12,702 Speaker 2: Oh, it was the most magnificently in law human experience. 469 00:28:13,302 --> 00:28:16,742 Speaker 2: To see a parent who was still grieving their child 470 00:28:17,622 --> 00:28:23,462 Speaker 2: showed concern for the person who took that life. You know, 471 00:28:23,502 --> 00:28:26,702 Speaker 2: he said he extended his sympathy to those who loved Todd, 472 00:28:27,062 --> 00:28:30,302 Speaker 2: and that it was a terrible tragedy all round, and 473 00:28:30,342 --> 00:28:33,262 Speaker 2: that he wished for Todd to get better, and that 474 00:28:33,542 --> 00:28:36,062 Speaker 2: he thought you were would have also wished for Todd 475 00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:38,262 Speaker 2: to get better. And it spoke to it was a 476 00:28:38,262 --> 00:28:41,942 Speaker 2: little window into this family that she came from and 477 00:28:42,102 --> 00:28:44,862 Speaker 2: this element that was in the heart of her artistic work, 478 00:28:45,382 --> 00:28:48,342 Speaker 2: which was, like I said, this radical compassion as the 479 00:28:48,382 --> 00:28:51,822 Speaker 2: only way of fixing all of these problems which ultimately 480 00:28:51,862 --> 00:28:56,102 Speaker 2: killed her. So it was tragic but very powerful to 481 00:28:56,142 --> 00:28:57,622 Speaker 2: see her father saying that. 482 00:28:58,782 --> 00:29:02,382 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Todd in that courtroom, because apparently he 483 00:29:02,422 --> 00:29:05,182 Speaker 1: wept during some of these statements, but you think otherwise 484 00:29:05,222 --> 00:29:07,182 Speaker 1: you were there, tell us how did he react? 485 00:29:07,782 --> 00:29:11,502 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean I had been reported that he 486 00:29:11,542 --> 00:29:14,462 Speaker 2: wept during the victim impact statements. The way that that 487 00:29:14,542 --> 00:29:19,102 Speaker 2: courtroom is structured, it's very archaic. It was built so 488 00:29:19,222 --> 00:29:22,502 Speaker 2: long ago that the sound doesn't travel well and the 489 00:29:22,542 --> 00:29:26,342 Speaker 2: angles are quite awkward. The press box is kind of 490 00:29:26,382 --> 00:29:29,142 Speaker 2: like these two pews, and they're next to the dock 491 00:29:29,222 --> 00:29:33,742 Speaker 2: where the accused sits behind a plexiglass screen. And that 492 00:29:33,862 --> 00:29:37,462 Speaker 2: was the case even before COVID. And the way that 493 00:29:37,542 --> 00:29:39,782 Speaker 2: I work is that I sit and observe as much 494 00:29:39,822 --> 00:29:43,222 Speaker 2: as it's possible too, probably to a creepy extent, But 495 00:29:43,422 --> 00:29:45,582 Speaker 2: I had tried to make sure that I was as 496 00:29:45,622 --> 00:29:48,142 Speaker 2: close as possible to him for as long as possible, 497 00:29:48,222 --> 00:29:50,862 Speaker 2: so that I would have as much information from which 498 00:29:50,862 --> 00:29:54,062 Speaker 2: to make these assessments about emotion. And it's not something 499 00:29:54,102 --> 00:29:56,622 Speaker 2: that's afforded to most court reporters, because they're under a 500 00:29:56,702 --> 00:29:58,462 Speaker 2: huge time pressure to come in and out of a 501 00:29:58,502 --> 00:30:00,982 Speaker 2: case and to go and do their crosses outside, or 502 00:30:01,022 --> 00:30:03,782 Speaker 2: to go and file their reports on a twenty four 503 00:30:03,822 --> 00:30:07,302 Speaker 2: hour cycle or even less than that. Whereas I'm writing 504 00:30:07,342 --> 00:30:09,582 Speaker 2: at length and I kind of wait till there's some 505 00:30:09,702 --> 00:30:11,862 Speaker 2: dust on the MATERI so I can see kind of 506 00:30:11,862 --> 00:30:15,222 Speaker 2: what the larger implications are. And so I afforded more 507 00:30:15,222 --> 00:30:18,422 Speaker 2: time in the research process to do these things. And 508 00:30:18,742 --> 00:30:21,702 Speaker 2: that's a long way of explaining that I didn't understand 509 00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:24,822 Speaker 2: what his face was doing as weeping. Given how long 510 00:30:24,902 --> 00:30:29,702 Speaker 2: I had spent watching him. It seemed too extreme and 511 00:30:29,782 --> 00:30:33,982 Speaker 2: too performative. It seemed like he was fulfilling what was 512 00:30:34,022 --> 00:30:37,902 Speaker 2: expected of him at those times in the court. But 513 00:30:38,022 --> 00:30:41,902 Speaker 2: I did see him have very strong emotion at other times, 514 00:30:41,942 --> 00:30:44,982 Speaker 2: And the strongest emotion that I saw was this mix 515 00:30:45,022 --> 00:30:48,542 Speaker 2: of fear and shame, and so that had a palpable 516 00:30:48,702 --> 00:30:51,462 Speaker 2: impact on the way his face moved, and when he 517 00:30:51,542 --> 00:30:54,142 Speaker 2: looked up directly, and when he hit his face, the 518 00:30:54,182 --> 00:30:57,422 Speaker 2: way he held his body, the way he walked, and 519 00:30:57,502 --> 00:31:01,822 Speaker 2: so I think he was feeling very strong emotions, just 520 00:31:01,902 --> 00:31:04,822 Speaker 2: not in the way that most of the reports presented it. 521 00:31:06,342 --> 00:31:10,022 Speaker 1: The sentence that Todd received yourself described it as surprising. 522 00:31:10,662 --> 00:31:11,222 Speaker 1: Why was that? 523 00:31:12,302 --> 00:31:15,102 Speaker 2: The first part is what I said about this need 524 00:31:15,102 --> 00:31:22,702 Speaker 2: to balance all of these competing characteristics. So the forensic 525 00:31:22,702 --> 00:31:27,862 Speaker 2: psychologist who testified for the defense had said that Todd's 526 00:31:27,942 --> 00:31:34,942 Speaker 2: autism diagnosis interacted with the sexual sadist diagnosist to make 527 00:31:35,022 --> 00:31:38,462 Speaker 2: him more rigid in the pursuit of these fantasies of 528 00:31:38,582 --> 00:31:42,662 Speaker 2: rape and murder that had kind of grown and metastasized 529 00:31:42,902 --> 00:31:45,862 Speaker 2: in proportion to the volume of violent porn that he 530 00:31:45,982 --> 00:31:50,342 Speaker 2: was watching. He was less likely than somebody without those 531 00:31:50,382 --> 00:31:57,462 Speaker 2: diagnoses to be able to desist. The prosecutions for psychologists 532 00:31:57,622 --> 00:32:02,502 Speaker 2: disagreed with that assessment, saying that we'd seen Todd have 533 00:32:02,662 --> 00:32:08,302 Speaker 2: a relationship, have friendships, His friends and girlfriends understood him 534 00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:13,662 Speaker 2: as somebody who had a very social range of responses 535 00:32:14,342 --> 00:32:18,102 Speaker 2: and was considerate to others. There was evidence that he 536 00:32:18,222 --> 00:32:22,582 Speaker 2: was able to desist from violent sexual behavior or listen 537 00:32:22,662 --> 00:32:27,862 Speaker 2: to his girlfriend in matters of sexual consent. So there 538 00:32:27,902 --> 00:32:32,102 Speaker 2: was competing assessments of the impact of his diagnoses, and 539 00:32:32,142 --> 00:32:35,262 Speaker 2: the law had and still has, I believe, a limited 540 00:32:35,342 --> 00:32:41,102 Speaker 2: understanding of the way that neurodivergence works in criminal offending. 541 00:32:41,822 --> 00:32:44,382 Speaker 2: So all of that was kind of an open question 542 00:32:44,422 --> 00:32:48,182 Speaker 2: about how it would translate into the sentence. But the 543 00:32:48,262 --> 00:32:52,702 Speaker 2: other consideration was his extreme youth. So on the one hand, 544 00:32:53,022 --> 00:32:56,062 Speaker 2: we have a whole body of law that says that 545 00:32:56,782 --> 00:33:01,102 Speaker 2: we should give the least amount of punishment required to 546 00:33:01,262 --> 00:33:05,462 Speaker 2: fairly punish the offense, and that the airs of presumption 547 00:33:06,302 --> 00:33:10,262 Speaker 2: when the offender is very young, that life imprisonment will 548 00:33:10,262 --> 00:33:13,902 Speaker 2: be disproportionate to all of the factors relevant to their 549 00:33:13,942 --> 00:33:17,022 Speaker 2: offending and who they are, mostly because of that youth. 550 00:33:17,742 --> 00:33:21,542 Speaker 2: For that reason, but the Crown and the defense had 551 00:33:21,582 --> 00:33:25,622 Speaker 2: agreed that life imprisonment wouldn't be an appropriate punishment. So 552 00:33:26,102 --> 00:33:30,462 Speaker 2: normally that agreement would have not a determining impact, but 553 00:33:30,542 --> 00:33:34,702 Speaker 2: a strong impact on the sentence. Always the sentencing judge 554 00:33:34,782 --> 00:33:37,862 Speaker 2: retains the final discretion, the final say so, and what 555 00:33:37,982 --> 00:33:39,822 Speaker 2: that sentence will be and how long it will be. 556 00:33:40,542 --> 00:33:43,582 Speaker 2: So I was surprised because of the body of law 557 00:33:43,582 --> 00:33:47,022 Speaker 2: about youth and life imprisonment and this agreement between the 558 00:33:47,062 --> 00:33:51,182 Speaker 2: parties that life imprisonment wasn't going to be appropriate, because 559 00:33:51,702 --> 00:33:54,062 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, Justice Kaye found that 560 00:33:54,262 --> 00:33:58,582 Speaker 2: it was proportionate to impose a sentence of life, and 561 00:33:59,142 --> 00:34:03,382 Speaker 2: that was because even taking the youth into account, it 562 00:34:03,422 --> 00:34:07,342 Speaker 2: was the extreme dangerousness of this offending that meant that 563 00:34:07,662 --> 00:34:10,142 Speaker 2: no other sentence would be possible, and all of the 564 00:34:10,142 --> 00:34:12,462 Speaker 2: reasons for that held up on appeal. 565 00:34:13,942 --> 00:34:18,422 Speaker 1: So he's given life, which means thirty five years right 566 00:34:19,102 --> 00:34:19,982 Speaker 1: as a non parole. 567 00:34:20,782 --> 00:34:23,502 Speaker 2: So the head sentence is life. That's the most that 568 00:34:23,542 --> 00:34:27,062 Speaker 2: he can serve, and the non parole period is thirty 569 00:34:27,102 --> 00:34:30,262 Speaker 2: five years, and that's the least he can serve. At 570 00:34:30,342 --> 00:34:33,422 Speaker 2: thirty five years, he won't necessarily be released, but he 571 00:34:33,502 --> 00:34:37,422 Speaker 2: becomes eligible for parole consideration. So the Adult Parole Board 572 00:34:37,502 --> 00:34:40,422 Speaker 2: will then look at his time served, who he is, 573 00:34:40,742 --> 00:34:44,262 Speaker 2: what rehabilitation he's done, if any expert reports on his 574 00:34:44,302 --> 00:34:49,502 Speaker 2: psychological state, his personality, and they will make an assessment 575 00:34:49,542 --> 00:34:51,702 Speaker 2: whether he's safe to release at that time. And he'll 576 00:34:51,702 --> 00:34:53,862 Speaker 2: be in his mid fifties by that point. 577 00:34:54,742 --> 00:34:57,062 Speaker 1: I think it's good to know that that decision isn't 578 00:34:57,142 --> 00:34:59,382 Speaker 1: just you know, he's led out straight away. It's assessed 579 00:34:59,422 --> 00:35:03,382 Speaker 1: because reading the detailed the sentencing, it said things like 580 00:35:03,702 --> 00:35:07,462 Speaker 1: his chances of rehabilitation were slim and that the risk 581 00:35:07,502 --> 00:35:11,062 Speaker 1: he posed to women was unacceptably great. That doesn't sound 582 00:35:11,102 --> 00:35:13,742 Speaker 1: like the kind of person, at least at the time 583 00:35:13,742 --> 00:35:16,382 Speaker 1: of sentencing, that you want released back into the community. 584 00:35:17,062 --> 00:35:20,022 Speaker 2: It's a real concern specifically for those reasons, and then 585 00:35:20,142 --> 00:35:24,542 Speaker 2: generally when we look at the efficiency of imprisonment in 586 00:35:24,622 --> 00:35:29,622 Speaker 2: terms of reducing crime more broadly, so, prison actually has 587 00:35:29,622 --> 00:35:33,902 Speaker 2: a criminogenic effect, which means that it increases people's likelihood 588 00:35:33,982 --> 00:35:36,982 Speaker 2: to commit crimes. It cuts off their social ties in 589 00:35:37,262 --> 00:35:42,862 Speaker 2: the outside world, living situations, job prospects, relationships, all of 590 00:35:42,862 --> 00:35:46,062 Speaker 2: the things that would hold people and prevent them from 591 00:35:46,062 --> 00:35:49,182 Speaker 2: offending in the future. It's also a place of punishment, 592 00:35:49,222 --> 00:35:52,302 Speaker 2: it's not a place necessarily of rehabilitation. So all of 593 00:35:52,342 --> 00:35:58,262 Speaker 2: the sexual offender rehabilitation programs that would be available in 594 00:35:58,302 --> 00:36:01,942 Speaker 2: other contexts are necessarily available to him. Because of his 595 00:36:02,382 --> 00:36:05,302 Speaker 2: youth and the nature of his crime, he would probably 596 00:36:05,342 --> 00:36:09,142 Speaker 2: be in productive custody. And again that kind of isolation 597 00:36:09,382 --> 00:36:12,542 Speaker 2: has a dangerous impact. So yeah, it's quite concerning. 598 00:36:13,342 --> 00:36:16,542 Speaker 1: That being said, though, I've heard that Todd is I 599 00:36:16,582 --> 00:36:20,062 Speaker 1: wouldn't say enjoying, but he likes elements of prison. 600 00:36:21,182 --> 00:36:24,142 Speaker 2: Yes, that point was made by the forensic psychologist, I 601 00:36:24,182 --> 00:36:27,582 Speaker 2: think for the prosecution, who was kind of asked this 602 00:36:27,782 --> 00:36:29,702 Speaker 2: was kind of at that early stage where he had 603 00:36:29,742 --> 00:36:34,462 Speaker 2: spent the months in prison in preparation for the sentencing hearing, 604 00:36:34,582 --> 00:36:37,262 Speaker 2: how he was going in prison, the impact of prison 605 00:36:37,342 --> 00:36:40,822 Speaker 2: on him, because again the court will take into account 606 00:36:40,862 --> 00:36:44,622 Speaker 2: where there is kind of a pre existing psychological or 607 00:36:45,182 --> 00:36:49,422 Speaker 2: neurological condition, whether the impact of prison would weigh more 608 00:36:49,462 --> 00:36:53,222 Speaker 2: heavily on Todd than it would for someone without his diagnoses. 609 00:36:53,742 --> 00:36:58,022 Speaker 2: And in that case, it was ironic that the order 610 00:36:58,062 --> 00:37:02,222 Speaker 2: and predictability of the environment, compared to the chaos of 611 00:37:02,262 --> 00:37:04,662 Speaker 2: the home that he had come from, was actually having 612 00:37:04,662 --> 00:37:07,462 Speaker 2: a beneficial effect on him, and I think that said 613 00:37:07,502 --> 00:37:10,622 Speaker 2: something more generally about the way in which the soul 614 00:37:10,702 --> 00:37:14,382 Speaker 2: could have been avoided if he had had a different 615 00:37:14,862 --> 00:37:19,542 Speaker 2: home life, different background. Where would we all have found ourselves. 616 00:37:31,422 --> 00:37:34,782 Speaker 1: I want to move away from Todd now and get 617 00:37:34,822 --> 00:37:40,702 Speaker 1: back to Uriticy and the community response to what happened, 618 00:37:40,902 --> 00:37:44,062 Speaker 1: because the only word that I can come up with 619 00:37:44,142 --> 00:37:47,902 Speaker 1: is anger. It felt like when everything started to come out, 620 00:37:48,902 --> 00:37:52,702 Speaker 1: the response was huge, wasn't it. 621 00:37:53,382 --> 00:37:59,022 Speaker 2: We'd had to previous explosively violent stranger murders of young 622 00:37:59,182 --> 00:38:03,822 Speaker 2: women in Melbourne just in the previous months before this 623 00:38:04,382 --> 00:38:09,262 Speaker 2: matter was heard, and we'd also heard police repeating this 624 00:38:09,862 --> 00:38:14,262 Speaker 2: broad instruction to women to be careful about how and 625 00:38:14,342 --> 00:38:17,702 Speaker 2: where they walked home at night, instead of a broad 626 00:38:17,742 --> 00:38:21,342 Speaker 2: instruction to men not to kill and rape women. And 627 00:38:21,942 --> 00:38:23,622 Speaker 2: so I think we were all fed up with that, 628 00:38:23,862 --> 00:38:26,582 Speaker 2: and then we were all fed up more broadly with 629 00:38:27,222 --> 00:38:33,062 Speaker 2: the types of factors that were leading again and again 630 00:38:33,182 --> 00:38:36,542 Speaker 2: to sexual assault and murder. And we're still fed up 631 00:38:36,582 --> 00:38:38,662 Speaker 2: with it, and we're still seeing it, and we're still 632 00:38:38,662 --> 00:38:43,462 Speaker 2: at the very beginning of implementing systemic solutions to this 633 00:38:43,582 --> 00:38:45,542 Speaker 2: problem of male violence against women. 634 00:38:46,342 --> 00:38:50,222 Speaker 1: In the wake of you a decease murder. Did anything change? 635 00:38:50,222 --> 00:38:54,502 Speaker 1: Did the Victorian authorities change anything? Was it discussed in parliament? Because, 636 00:38:54,502 --> 00:38:57,982 Speaker 1: as you said, this was after quite a few stranger 637 00:38:58,062 --> 00:39:00,502 Speaker 1: murders in Melbourne itself, in one city. 638 00:39:01,182 --> 00:39:04,662 Speaker 2: I think the broad answer to that is no and 639 00:39:05,182 --> 00:39:09,942 Speaker 2: not enough. I used to work in the Victorian Department 640 00:39:09,982 --> 00:39:15,182 Speaker 2: of Justice in a unit that formulated legislative reforms to 641 00:39:15,302 --> 00:39:20,662 Speaker 2: the Crimes Act, and in a certain respect, while the 642 00:39:20,702 --> 00:39:24,262 Speaker 2: criminal law is extremely important here, it happens at the 643 00:39:24,382 --> 00:39:26,822 Speaker 2: end of this process when the damage that can't be 644 00:39:26,982 --> 00:39:33,062 Speaker 2: undone has already occurred. So these are not necessarily solutions 645 00:39:33,142 --> 00:39:36,142 Speaker 2: that can be fixed with new laws. They are social 646 00:39:36,222 --> 00:39:41,502 Speaker 2: issues that need a whole range of behavioral and financial solutions, 647 00:39:42,182 --> 00:39:46,182 Speaker 2: and I think if they had been efficiently implemented in 648 00:39:46,262 --> 00:39:49,582 Speaker 2: response to cases like this, we would not be seeing 649 00:39:49,622 --> 00:39:51,542 Speaker 2: the situations that we continue to say. 650 00:39:52,542 --> 00:39:56,862 Speaker 1: As someone that is so embedded in this world, you 651 00:39:56,942 --> 00:40:00,502 Speaker 1: have a history of being there with the Crimes Act, 652 00:40:00,542 --> 00:40:03,582 Speaker 1: You've got a criminal law background. Please, Sarah, is there 653 00:40:03,622 --> 00:40:07,702 Speaker 1: any help of fixing this in our lifetime? Yeah? 654 00:40:07,702 --> 00:40:09,462 Speaker 2: I mean I think that there's so many people doing 655 00:40:09,502 --> 00:40:12,382 Speaker 2: great work in this I am the mother of two 656 00:40:12,422 --> 00:40:17,542 Speaker 2: sons and I think that these conversations don't start with 657 00:40:17,702 --> 00:40:22,822 Speaker 2: grown men. They start with a whole range of ways 658 00:40:22,862 --> 00:40:27,662 Speaker 2: of seeing women as equal and valuable adults. So this 659 00:40:27,782 --> 00:40:32,942 Speaker 2: is a complicated web, from the way we handle internet 660 00:40:32,982 --> 00:40:38,142 Speaker 2: regulation and peorn regulation, to the gender pay gap, to 661 00:40:38,422 --> 00:40:42,622 Speaker 2: the stories that we read and value towards the voices 662 00:40:42,662 --> 00:40:47,542 Speaker 2: that we see and hear are women being treated equally 663 00:40:47,902 --> 00:40:52,622 Speaker 2: as real human people, And then how we talk about 664 00:40:52,662 --> 00:40:57,862 Speaker 2: what masculinity means, the pressures and kind of expectations on men, 665 00:40:57,982 --> 00:41:00,822 Speaker 2: and how that plays out in politics and in sports 666 00:41:00,862 --> 00:41:05,502 Speaker 2: and in society economically, and so you know, this is 667 00:41:05,622 --> 00:41:11,142 Speaker 2: a broad systemic issue. There, it's a unified field, and 668 00:41:11,142 --> 00:41:13,662 Speaker 2: there's many people working in the space. But as I said, 669 00:41:13,662 --> 00:41:17,542 Speaker 2: we're still at the very beginning of taking it seriously 670 00:41:17,662 --> 00:41:20,582 Speaker 2: enough to ask these questions about what the solutions look like. 671 00:41:21,382 --> 00:41:23,142 Speaker 1: It does make me feel a little bit better that 672 00:41:23,182 --> 00:41:26,382 Speaker 1: you're at least hopeful though, that we can see change. 673 00:41:26,742 --> 00:41:29,582 Speaker 2: Well. I think if the problems are socially caused, they 674 00:41:29,622 --> 00:41:33,262 Speaker 2: can be socially fixed. And one of the things that 675 00:41:33,382 --> 00:41:36,822 Speaker 2: happens when you write about cases like this is there's 676 00:41:37,142 --> 00:41:44,582 Speaker 2: sometimes criticism about centralizing or even humanizing the offender taking 677 00:41:44,582 --> 00:41:48,342 Speaker 2: a spotlight away from the victim, and I understand the 678 00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:51,702 Speaker 2: emotion at the heart of that criticism, but I don't 679 00:41:51,702 --> 00:41:55,222 Speaker 2: agree with the point because if we're not curious about 680 00:41:55,262 --> 00:41:59,422 Speaker 2: the factors that creates someone like James Todd, then they 681 00:41:59,462 --> 00:42:03,502 Speaker 2: are still going to be creating other young men like him, 682 00:42:04,222 --> 00:42:08,262 Speaker 2: and that makes none of us safer. So yeah, I 683 00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:11,342 Speaker 2: think that's very dark and it's not as necessarily a 684 00:42:11,382 --> 00:42:14,822 Speaker 2: fun space to be in. But I think the questions 685 00:42:14,862 --> 00:42:16,942 Speaker 2: are important, the curiosity is important. 686 00:42:17,742 --> 00:42:20,862 Speaker 1: The reality is since twenty eighteen, since this happened, we 687 00:42:20,942 --> 00:42:26,142 Speaker 1: have lost an unfathomable number of women who have been murdered. 688 00:42:26,902 --> 00:42:29,022 Speaker 1: Why do you think it is that so many people 689 00:42:29,062 --> 00:42:30,582 Speaker 1: remember urytices story. 690 00:42:31,742 --> 00:42:34,102 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting question and I don't think it 691 00:42:34,182 --> 00:42:41,342 Speaker 2: has one answer. I think the location has something to 692 00:42:41,382 --> 00:42:43,702 Speaker 2: do with it. That this kind of had so many 693 00:42:43,902 --> 00:42:49,982 Speaker 2: iconic Melbourne places and spaces involved in the actual crime 694 00:42:50,142 --> 00:42:51,742 Speaker 2: that there was a sense that it could have been 695 00:42:51,982 --> 00:42:57,022 Speaker 2: any of us in the city. Her youth and Todd's youth, 696 00:42:57,262 --> 00:43:00,862 Speaker 2: I think had a shocking impact on people that didn't 697 00:43:00,862 --> 00:43:03,342 Speaker 2: see that coming. And I would like to say that 698 00:43:03,382 --> 00:43:06,182 Speaker 2: she absolutely deserves like every woman who's killed at the 699 00:43:06,182 --> 00:43:10,342 Speaker 2: hands of men to be remembered. But I'm also mine 700 00:43:10,582 --> 00:43:15,782 Speaker 2: that not as many people remember other names. So Aya 701 00:43:15,862 --> 00:43:20,102 Speaker 2: Marsawe who was killed by Cody Herman in twenty nineteen. 702 00:43:20,262 --> 00:43:22,902 Speaker 1: Another stranger murder, another stranger murder. 703 00:43:23,022 --> 00:43:25,902 Speaker 2: Both of them were similar ages twenty and twenty one, 704 00:43:26,142 --> 00:43:30,542 Speaker 2: so again the same violence, the same ages. People remember 705 00:43:30,702 --> 00:43:34,782 Speaker 2: Jill Mahr and Adrian Bailey, but they aren't as familiar 706 00:43:34,902 --> 00:43:38,382 Speaker 2: with Adrian Bailey's other victims who are sex workers. And 707 00:43:38,702 --> 00:43:41,502 Speaker 2: I won't name them now because I don't have any 708 00:43:41,662 --> 00:43:45,982 Speaker 2: permission to name them, but their names are available. And 709 00:43:46,062 --> 00:43:51,062 Speaker 2: so looking where our attention and our compassion and our 710 00:43:51,182 --> 00:43:56,582 Speaker 2: energy go in mainstream media outlets, it's difficult to avoid 711 00:43:56,622 --> 00:43:58,862 Speaker 2: the conclusion that we still look for women who fit 712 00:43:58,942 --> 00:44:04,342 Speaker 2: a certain mold and that race, ethnicity, gender, and profession 713 00:44:05,382 --> 00:44:09,382 Speaker 2: do play a role in where that attention goes. But again, 714 00:44:09,502 --> 00:44:12,902 Speaker 2: unless all women are valued equally, none of us are safe. 715 00:44:13,862 --> 00:44:15,182 Speaker 1: And I guess at the end of the day, it's 716 00:44:15,222 --> 00:44:17,782 Speaker 1: important that we try and tell as many of these 717 00:44:17,822 --> 00:44:21,062 Speaker 1: stories as we can right to keep this issue on 718 00:44:21,142 --> 00:44:23,982 Speaker 1: the front foot and so people know what's going on. 719 00:44:24,622 --> 00:44:33,702 Speaker 1: Absolutely thanks to Sarah for assisting us to tell eurydice story. 720 00:44:34,342 --> 00:44:36,542 Speaker 1: Sarah has written about a number of the women mentioned 721 00:44:36,582 --> 00:44:39,942 Speaker 1: in this interview, like Eurydicy, like Aya. You can find 722 00:44:39,982 --> 00:44:43,622 Speaker 1: her work linked in our show notes. True Crime Conversations 723 00:44:43,702 --> 00:44:46,862 Speaker 1: is a Mumamea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath, 724 00:44:47,222 --> 00:44:51,662 Speaker 1: with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is Giamoylan. 725 00:44:52,182 --> 00:44:54,982 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation. 726 00:44:55,462 --> 00:44:57,302 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you have a case you think 727 00:44:57,302 --> 00:44:59,862 Speaker 1: we should cover next, send us an email to true 728 00:44:59,862 --> 00:45:05,542 Speaker 1: Crime at mamamea dot com dot au.