WEBVTT - How Do You Solve A Problem Like Brad Pitt?

0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.221
<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.502
<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

0:00:22.542 --> 0:00:25.622
<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm

0:00:25.662 --> 0:00:27.781
<v Speaker 2>Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman.

0:00:27.542 --> 0:00:28.702
<v Speaker 3>And I'm Jesse Stevens.

0:00:28.742 --> 0:00:31.702
<v Speaker 2>And here's what's made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the

0:00:31.742 --> 0:00:35.262
<v Speaker 2>twenty fifth of June. He's everywhere you look. He's on

0:00:35.302 --> 0:00:38.461
<v Speaker 2>a supercharged comebat mission. But how do we solve a

0:00:38.502 --> 0:00:39.942
<v Speaker 2>problem like Brad.

0:00:39.742 --> 0:00:44.382
<v Speaker 3>Pitt plus, are you a maximizer or a satisficer? The

0:00:44.462 --> 0:00:47.182
<v Speaker 3>fascinating theory on why women are more likely to end

0:00:47.182 --> 0:00:49.582
<v Speaker 3>marriages and what it has to do with how long

0:00:49.822 --> 0:00:51.582
<v Speaker 3>you take to look at the menu at a restaurant.

0:00:51.702 --> 0:00:55.342
<v Speaker 1>And the woman who is obsessing a certain corner of

0:00:55.382 --> 0:00:58.382
<v Speaker 1>the Internet this week has been dead for twenty five years.

0:00:58.862 --> 0:01:02.302
<v Speaker 1>So why is Carolnbusset Kennedy suddenly everywhere? And why are

0:01:02.342 --> 0:01:04.542
<v Speaker 1>so many people feeling furious about it?

0:01:04.862 --> 0:01:08.702
<v Speaker 2>But first, the President of the United States crashed out

0:01:08.702 --> 0:01:12.021
<v Speaker 2>this morning. That's another term that might also be called

0:01:12.422 --> 0:01:13.261
<v Speaker 2>lost his shit.

0:01:13.702 --> 0:01:14.862
<v Speaker 1>Emotional dysregulation.

0:01:15.102 --> 0:01:20.542
<v Speaker 2>Yes, very emotionally dysregulated in a very reassuring display at

0:01:20.582 --> 0:01:23.702
<v Speaker 2>reporters on the White House lawn on the way to

0:01:23.742 --> 0:01:26.502
<v Speaker 2>the Netherlands for the NATO summit. This is what he

0:01:26.622 --> 0:01:30.182
<v Speaker 2>said about what's unfolding between Iran and Israel, and we

0:01:30.342 --> 0:01:34.062
<v Speaker 2>basically have two countries that have been fighting so long

0:01:34.142 --> 0:01:36.862
<v Speaker 2>and so hard that they don't know what the fuck

0:01:36.942 --> 0:01:39.622
<v Speaker 2>they're doing. You understand that he was upset because twenty

0:01:39.662 --> 0:01:42.102
<v Speaker 2>four hours before he'd told the world that he'd sorted

0:01:42.142 --> 0:01:45.142
<v Speaker 2>that stuff out. Just like that, everyone had listened to him.

0:01:45.142 --> 0:01:47.022
<v Speaker 2>They backed off, they'd gone to their corners. Guess what

0:01:47.102 --> 0:01:47.502
<v Speaker 2>they didn't.

0:01:47.582 --> 0:01:50.702
<v Speaker 3>He's the anti war president, right he is.

0:01:50.902 --> 0:01:54.902
<v Speaker 2>Mia is Trump less worried about escalating hostilities and casualties

0:01:54.942 --> 0:01:57.702
<v Speaker 2>than he is about not getting a certain trophy he's

0:01:57.742 --> 0:01:58.382
<v Speaker 2>desperate for.

0:01:58.702 --> 0:02:03.182
<v Speaker 1>Well, if you're wondering why he's suddenly so fixated on

0:02:03.342 --> 0:02:06.662
<v Speaker 1>peace and why he's branding himself the anti war president,

0:02:07.622 --> 0:02:09.541
<v Speaker 1>you might not know. You might have missed the fact

0:02:09.702 --> 0:02:12.982
<v Speaker 1>that he's been petitioning to win the Nobel Peace Prize.

0:02:13.102 --> 0:02:17.222
<v Speaker 1>Is this real citizens satire? He's actually been nominated five

0:02:17.302 --> 0:02:19.702
<v Speaker 1>times over the last five years. You have to get

0:02:19.702 --> 0:02:22.582
<v Speaker 1>nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not sorrying if

0:02:22.582 --> 0:02:25.382
<v Speaker 1>you can nominate yourself, but various people have nominated him,

0:02:25.382 --> 0:02:29.782
<v Speaker 1>including the Pakistan government this year. He wrote on the

0:02:29.902 --> 0:02:33.782
<v Speaker 1>Truth social platform on Friday Night, which he owns conveniently,

0:02:34.102 --> 0:02:36.622
<v Speaker 1>he says, no, I won't get a Nobel Peace Prize

0:02:36.622 --> 0:02:40.142
<v Speaker 1>no matter what I do, including Russia, Ukraine and Israel

0:02:40.181 --> 0:02:42.942
<v Speaker 1>I ran, whatever those outcomes may be. But the people

0:02:43.022 --> 0:02:44.942
<v Speaker 1>know and that's all that matters to me.

0:02:45.142 --> 0:02:46.901
<v Speaker 2>That's what you say when you really want to win

0:02:46.982 --> 0:02:48.462
<v Speaker 2>something and you're not going to win it, You're like,

0:02:48.502 --> 0:02:49.982
<v Speaker 2>I don't care. I didn't care anyway.

0:02:50.142 --> 0:02:50.662
<v Speaker 3>I didn't want it.

0:02:50.662 --> 0:02:53.542
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even want it. When he really, really really.

0:02:53.142 --> 0:02:55.462
<v Speaker 1>Wants stranger things have happened, he could win a Nobel

0:02:55.502 --> 0:02:57.542
<v Speaker 1>Peace Prize. I mean if this cease fire hold, which

0:02:57.662 --> 0:03:00.062
<v Speaker 1>you know at the time of recording, hopefully it will.

0:03:00.302 --> 0:03:03.501
<v Speaker 3>We're saying a lot of Dick's winging, and what's being lost,

0:03:03.542 --> 0:03:06.102
<v Speaker 3>I think is the loss of civilian life in all

0:03:06.142 --> 0:03:08.582
<v Speaker 3>of this conflict, and I'm not seeing that in you know,

0:03:08.622 --> 0:03:12.662
<v Speaker 3>a lot of the Trump coverage. Civilians are not their government,

0:03:12.782 --> 0:03:16.182
<v Speaker 3>and I think I would like to make space. I

0:03:16.181 --> 0:03:18.062
<v Speaker 3>think a lot of out louders probably feel like this

0:03:18.502 --> 0:03:22.422
<v Speaker 3>for the position of deep grief and distress and an

0:03:22.422 --> 0:03:25.142
<v Speaker 3>acknowledgment of just all the innocent people who have lost

0:03:25.181 --> 0:03:27.902
<v Speaker 3>their lives and continue to every day. And Trump can

0:03:27.942 --> 0:03:30.102
<v Speaker 3>say those words, and he can swear on the lawn

0:03:30.222 --> 0:03:32.982
<v Speaker 3>or whatever, but the reality is these are real human

0:03:33.022 --> 0:03:36.342
<v Speaker 3>beings with real lives, and the scale of the tragedy

0:03:36.422 --> 0:03:37.182
<v Speaker 3>is unimaginable.

0:03:47.982 --> 0:03:50.782
<v Speaker 2>What do we do with a problem like Brad Pitt.

0:03:51.222 --> 0:03:54.582
<v Speaker 2>He's everywhere at the minute, looming like a craggy, middle

0:03:54.622 --> 0:03:59.262
<v Speaker 2>aged Donnis on billboards, pop up ads, on podcasts, photoshoots,

0:03:59.462 --> 0:04:02.982
<v Speaker 2>in my dreams, but not about me. I'm talking about

0:04:03.102 --> 0:04:07.022
<v Speaker 2>Brad Pitt because everyone is. He is on the promotional

0:04:07.062 --> 0:04:11.022
<v Speaker 2>tour for his first like mega mega movie in decades.

0:04:11.102 --> 0:04:13.302
<v Speaker 2>Right f one, you would have seen this about It's

0:04:13.302 --> 0:04:14.622
<v Speaker 2>about cars, Jesse, You'd love it.

0:04:14.702 --> 0:04:17.101
<v Speaker 3>I'm really into it now that I'm a Formula one expert.

0:04:17.142 --> 0:04:19.782
<v Speaker 1>I'm also watching Drive to Survive, so I've got skin

0:04:19.861 --> 0:04:20.262
<v Speaker 1>in this game.

0:04:20.382 --> 0:04:23.582
<v Speaker 2>He's also jumping on the very fast bandwagon. It cost

0:04:23.662 --> 0:04:26.981
<v Speaker 2>a sickening three hundred million US dollars to make this film.

0:04:27.022 --> 0:04:29.421
<v Speaker 2>That's a lot of money, and it's directed by the

0:04:29.462 --> 0:04:31.382
<v Speaker 2>same dude, and dude is the word, because these are

0:04:31.421 --> 0:04:33.421
<v Speaker 2>real dude movies. Although I have to say I love

0:04:33.541 --> 0:04:35.501
<v Speaker 2>this one Top grand Maverick, which is the one that

0:04:35.821 --> 0:04:39.101
<v Speaker 2>this guy directed that also cost you know, the GDP

0:04:39.222 --> 0:04:41.941
<v Speaker 2>of a small nation, but it made more than one

0:04:41.941 --> 0:04:44.741
<v Speaker 2>and a half billion dollars at the box office. And

0:04:44.782 --> 0:04:47.142
<v Speaker 2>so that's the kind of pressure that's on a Brad

0:04:47.181 --> 0:04:49.782
<v Speaker 2>Pitt at the moment. It's like, if this movie costs

0:04:49.782 --> 0:04:52.061
<v Speaker 2>this much, you've got to do a tom cruise and

0:04:52.101 --> 0:04:54.541
<v Speaker 2>bring the dollar dollar bills in the door. And that's

0:04:54.582 --> 0:04:56.662
<v Speaker 2>why we're seeing him tap dancing everywhere.

0:04:56.741 --> 0:04:56.941
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:04:57.821 --> 0:05:01.821
<v Speaker 2>The problem is that this is the first major major

0:05:01.861 --> 0:05:06.902
<v Speaker 2>press tour that Pit's done really since this I'm about

0:05:06.902 --> 0:05:09.301
<v Speaker 2>to read a couple of lines from a court document

0:05:09.541 --> 0:05:12.501
<v Speaker 2>about the incident that is now nine years old between

0:05:12.621 --> 0:05:16.541
<v Speaker 2>him and Angelina Jolie and their children on a private

0:05:16.621 --> 0:05:20.022
<v Speaker 2>jet going from France to la and I also want

0:05:20.061 --> 0:05:22.461
<v Speaker 2>to say that these documents have been read in court.

0:05:22.541 --> 0:05:25.262
<v Speaker 2>He has never explicitly denied this happened. He has made

0:05:25.342 --> 0:05:28.301
<v Speaker 2>comments Pitt through his lawyers that you know, he feels

0:05:28.342 --> 0:05:31.501
<v Speaker 2>like he's been victimized by Jolie and their divorce proceedings,

0:05:31.501 --> 0:05:34.621
<v Speaker 2>but he has never denied this account explicitly. Pitt pulled

0:05:34.662 --> 0:05:37.141
<v Speaker 2>her into the bathroom and began yelling at her. He

0:05:37.181 --> 0:05:39.142
<v Speaker 2>grabbed her by the head and shook her, and then

0:05:39.181 --> 0:05:41.342
<v Speaker 2>he grabbed her by the shoulders and pushed her into

0:05:41.381 --> 0:05:44.301
<v Speaker 2>the bathroom wall. One of the children, who were between

0:05:44.342 --> 0:05:47.421
<v Speaker 2>eight and fifteen at the time, verbally defended Jolie, the

0:05:47.462 --> 0:05:50.621
<v Speaker 2>countersuit says, and Pitt lashed out. He lunged at his

0:05:50.662 --> 0:05:53.422
<v Speaker 2>own child, and Jolly grabbed him from behind to stop him.

0:05:53.741 --> 0:05:56.421
<v Speaker 2>To get Jolie off his back, Pit threw himself backwards

0:05:56.421 --> 0:05:59.981
<v Speaker 2>and into the airplane's seat, injuring Jolie's back and elbow.

0:06:00.462 --> 0:06:03.381
<v Speaker 2>The children rushed in and all bravely tried to protect

0:06:03.421 --> 0:06:06.342
<v Speaker 2>each other. Before it was over, Pitt choked one of

0:06:06.381 --> 0:06:10.902
<v Speaker 2>the children and struck another in the face. Now, Pitt

0:06:10.902 --> 0:06:14.181
<v Speaker 2>disputes a lot of Jolie's account, and ever since what

0:06:14.381 --> 0:06:17.381
<v Speaker 2>happened in their divorce, their relationship been going on a

0:06:17.381 --> 0:06:20.702
<v Speaker 2>long time. They had six kids together, and she has

0:06:20.702 --> 0:06:23.702
<v Speaker 2>said since that there was other violence in that relationship.

0:06:23.702 --> 0:06:25.462
<v Speaker 1>Can I ask you a question about that, because some

0:06:25.501 --> 0:06:28.222
<v Speaker 1>people say when this comes up, which in invariably does,

0:06:28.262 --> 0:06:32.541
<v Speaker 1>particularly at the moment, they'll say this never went to court,

0:06:33.181 --> 0:06:33.782
<v Speaker 1>which is true.

0:06:33.861 --> 0:06:37.581
<v Speaker 2>It's quite weedy because the FBI got involved because originally

0:06:37.621 --> 0:06:40.101
<v Speaker 2>these were all part of really redacted court documents that

0:06:40.101 --> 0:06:43.022
<v Speaker 2>protected the identity of everybody in it, and then that

0:06:43.061 --> 0:06:46.022
<v Speaker 2>got leaked and Jolie's thought that there was something dodgy

0:06:46.022 --> 0:06:48.261
<v Speaker 2>about that, so then she was bringing a case against

0:06:48.262 --> 0:06:51.581
<v Speaker 2>the FBI. It's very like muddy Waters got it. But

0:06:51.861 --> 0:06:55.741
<v Speaker 2>what we do know is that Pitt has never explicitly

0:06:55.782 --> 0:06:59.021
<v Speaker 2>denied that right that particular incident he said I won't

0:06:59.061 --> 0:07:01.462
<v Speaker 2>take through his lawyers. He's never really spoken much about

0:07:01.501 --> 0:07:02.902
<v Speaker 2>it at all. To be fair, it's not like he

0:07:03.262 --> 0:07:06.421
<v Speaker 2>has been trashing her publicly. The leaks are enormous.

0:07:06.621 --> 0:07:10.302
<v Speaker 1>His people have been really smearing her over a really

0:07:10.342 --> 0:07:12.382
<v Speaker 1>long period of time. I think that's pretty well known.

0:07:12.502 --> 0:07:14.982
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but she's been I mean, like they're both. I'm

0:07:14.982 --> 0:07:17.021
<v Speaker 2>not defending him, but I'm just saying that this is

0:07:17.022 --> 0:07:19.222
<v Speaker 2>a very for nine years now, this has been a

0:07:19.422 --> 0:07:23.662
<v Speaker 2>very very messy situation. Yeah, he is not saying that

0:07:23.702 --> 0:07:27.942
<v Speaker 2>didn't happen. So let's assume, as the courts do, that

0:07:27.941 --> 0:07:30.702
<v Speaker 2>that did happen, right, The point I'm trying to make

0:07:31.342 --> 0:07:33.422
<v Speaker 2>is that whatever all that he said, she said, is

0:07:34.462 --> 0:07:36.982
<v Speaker 2>he did that? Yeah, and so what does that mean? Well,

0:07:36.982 --> 0:07:37.462
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean.

0:07:37.502 --> 0:07:40.502
<v Speaker 1>It certainly seems that way. And it's also worth admitting

0:07:40.502 --> 0:07:44.821
<v Speaker 1>to the public record that of their six children, I

0:07:44.862 --> 0:07:46.902
<v Speaker 1>think four of them have legally changed their name because

0:07:46.902 --> 0:07:49.942
<v Speaker 1>they're over eighteen to drop the pit from their names,

0:07:50.422 --> 0:07:53.222
<v Speaker 1>and none of them have been seen publicly with him

0:07:53.462 --> 0:07:53.902
<v Speaker 1>since then.

0:07:54.302 --> 0:07:58.222
<v Speaker 2>He's estranged from all his kids, so he's not denying that.

0:07:58.502 --> 0:08:00.742
<v Speaker 2>So how do you handle that? Back to the problem

0:08:00.742 --> 0:08:02.662
<v Speaker 2>of Brad Pitt, how do you handle the fact that

0:08:02.702 --> 0:08:05.662
<v Speaker 2>one of the most famous and high profile love affairs

0:08:05.702 --> 0:08:10.141
<v Speaker 2>marriages families of all time fell apart under a huge

0:08:10.222 --> 0:08:12.742
<v Speaker 2>dark cloud of abuse allegations. How do you handle that

0:08:12.782 --> 0:08:15.141
<v Speaker 2>and go on to be mister three hundred million dollar movie.

0:08:15.182 --> 0:08:18.302
<v Speaker 2>That is the question here right in a way what

0:08:18.422 --> 0:08:22.022
<v Speaker 2>Pitt has decided to do. It's clear I'm not necessarily

0:08:22.022 --> 0:08:24.462
<v Speaker 2>being cynical in this is play. That's not who I

0:08:24.502 --> 0:08:28.462
<v Speaker 2>am anymore. Most notably, he's talked about getting sober. There

0:08:28.502 --> 0:08:30.422
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of alcohol in that. In the account

0:08:30.422 --> 0:08:33.862
<v Speaker 2>of that about him drinking heavily, he says he's got sober,

0:08:33.982 --> 0:08:36.742
<v Speaker 2>he's in a AA And this week he went on

0:08:36.982 --> 0:08:40.982
<v Speaker 2>Dak Shepherd's Armchair Expert podcast, where he spoke to Dax

0:08:41.022 --> 0:08:43.622
<v Speaker 2>and Monica about very little. Actually the words wife would

0:08:43.622 --> 0:08:46.222
<v Speaker 2>never mention. The children were never mentioned, and normally Dax

0:08:46.382 --> 0:08:49.582
<v Speaker 2>talks a lot about kids because he's a very much

0:08:49.622 --> 0:08:52.062
<v Speaker 2>a dad, dad guy. None of that was mentioned. They

0:08:52.142 --> 0:08:55.382
<v Speaker 2>talked a lot about cars, but he did reveal Dak

0:08:55.462 --> 0:08:58.342
<v Speaker 2>Shepherd that he and Brad are in the same men's

0:08:58.462 --> 0:09:01.622
<v Speaker 2>AA group in Hollywood. And this is what Brad said

0:09:01.742 --> 0:09:04.342
<v Speaker 2>about Dak's reaching out to him to invite him to

0:09:04.422 --> 0:09:04.982
<v Speaker 2>their circle.

0:09:05.342 --> 0:09:08.422
<v Speaker 4>You know, I was in pretty it's pretty much on

0:09:08.462 --> 0:09:11.542
<v Speaker 4>my back, yeah, you know, on my knees, and I

0:09:11.662 --> 0:09:14.542
<v Speaker 4>was really open to I was trying anything and everyone, anything,

0:09:14.782 --> 0:09:19.022
<v Speaker 4>anyone throughout me. It was a particular difficult time. I

0:09:19.102 --> 0:09:22.502
<v Speaker 4>needed rebooting. I needed to wake the fuck up in

0:09:22.582 --> 0:09:25.862
<v Speaker 4>some areas. And it just meant a lot to me.

0:09:26.262 --> 0:09:29.382
<v Speaker 2>So the Hollywood narrative is clear, even without spelling it out.

0:09:29.822 --> 0:09:32.862
<v Speaker 2>I fucked up. I sorted my shit out. I'm trying

0:09:32.862 --> 0:09:35.622
<v Speaker 2>to be a better man. Let's move on. What do

0:09:35.662 --> 0:09:36.182
<v Speaker 2>we make of it?

0:09:37.142 --> 0:09:40.222
<v Speaker 3>I struggle with that narrative and with men talking about

0:09:40.422 --> 0:09:45.502
<v Speaker 3>AA and addiction recovery as this personal triumph without any

0:09:45.542 --> 0:09:49.902
<v Speaker 3>acknowledgment of what lays in their wake, whether that is

0:09:50.782 --> 0:09:54.502
<v Speaker 3>children and women that are hurt, which often are, and

0:09:54.582 --> 0:09:58.142
<v Speaker 3>so it just becomes this really one note narrative. You know,

0:09:58.182 --> 0:10:00.822
<v Speaker 3>there's a quote in that interview where he says, when

0:10:00.822 --> 0:10:03.422
<v Speaker 3>I've stepped in shit, I'm pretty good at taking responsibility

0:10:03.462 --> 0:10:07.662
<v Speaker 3>for it. And it's basically like I'm stubborn, but I

0:10:07.782 --> 0:10:10.102
<v Speaker 3>own my failures and blah blah bla, And it comes

0:10:10.102 --> 0:10:13.342
<v Speaker 3>off like Brad Pitt deserves a round of applause, right,

0:10:13.902 --> 0:10:15.702
<v Speaker 3>And I think that there's a clue in what you

0:10:15.742 --> 0:10:19.502
<v Speaker 3>were saying, Holly about sort of the pr machine around

0:10:19.502 --> 0:10:22.142
<v Speaker 3>Brad Pitt, which is the three hundred million dollars when

0:10:22.182 --> 0:10:27.262
<v Speaker 3>three hundred million dollars hinges on us all not forgiving,

0:10:27.782 --> 0:10:32.142
<v Speaker 3>but putting aside the allegations against Brad Pitt, that machine

0:10:32.222 --> 0:10:34.422
<v Speaker 3>is going to work really, really hard because he's not

0:10:34.502 --> 0:10:38.022
<v Speaker 3>only an actor, but he's a producer. And interestingly, he

0:10:38.102 --> 0:10:41.502
<v Speaker 3>was a producer on adolescence and that was quiet. That

0:10:41.622 --> 0:10:42.622
<v Speaker 3>was only like a little.

0:10:42.702 --> 0:10:44.822
<v Speaker 2>He produces lots, he produces.

0:10:44.542 --> 0:10:47.022
<v Speaker 3>Lots, but I think that he's taken in those instances,

0:10:47.062 --> 0:10:48.982
<v Speaker 3>he's taken a bit of a backseat and let the

0:10:49.022 --> 0:10:49.822
<v Speaker 3>projects speak for you.

0:10:49.902 --> 0:10:51.462
<v Speaker 2>You can't do that when you're the star, and you

0:10:51.502 --> 0:10:52.102
<v Speaker 2>can't do it.

0:10:52.742 --> 0:10:56.062
<v Speaker 3>So you are not going to risk that film bombing

0:10:56.502 --> 0:10:58.942
<v Speaker 3>because people go, I can't look at that man for

0:10:59.062 --> 0:11:03.702
<v Speaker 3>two hours or whatever. And so I'm finding the stylist

0:11:03.742 --> 0:11:05.982
<v Speaker 3>information really interesting. Maya, can you explain to me the

0:11:06.182 --> 0:11:09.062
<v Speaker 3>stylist kind of analysis that's coming out?

0:11:09.182 --> 0:11:11.622
<v Speaker 1>So it's interesting. When you think about Brad Pitt, you

0:11:11.622 --> 0:11:15.582
<v Speaker 1>would think of a kind of a scruffy you know,

0:11:15.982 --> 0:11:18.382
<v Speaker 1>he's a very good looking but not a fashion plate.

0:11:18.582 --> 0:11:22.462
<v Speaker 1>He's almost counterprogrammed his good looks. He came up as

0:11:22.502 --> 0:11:24.782
<v Speaker 1>this heart throb, and he's always worked against that by

0:11:25.742 --> 0:11:28.902
<v Speaker 1>really not paying much attention to his clothes or publicly.

0:11:28.982 --> 0:11:33.062
<v Speaker 1>Although in an interview when he was still married to Angelina,

0:11:33.262 --> 0:11:36.422
<v Speaker 1>she gave a comment to a reporter who was asking

0:11:36.422 --> 0:11:38.422
<v Speaker 1>her about getting ready in all the kids and everything,

0:11:38.502 --> 0:11:40.822
<v Speaker 1>and she made a comment which was really interesting. She said,

0:11:41.342 --> 0:11:44.782
<v Speaker 1>Brad always takes longer to get ready than me. And

0:11:44.862 --> 0:11:48.262
<v Speaker 1>I've thought about that a lot since it became known

0:11:48.542 --> 0:11:52.022
<v Speaker 1>in the last few months that for this whole rehabilitation

0:11:52.142 --> 0:11:56.982
<v Speaker 1>press tour, he's hired Timothy Chalome's stylist, and that's taking

0:11:57.022 --> 0:11:59.342
<v Speaker 1>a big swing. And if you've seen some of the shots,

0:11:59.942 --> 0:12:02.062
<v Speaker 1>the guy's what sixty one, I think he's just turned

0:12:02.102 --> 0:12:06.662
<v Speaker 1>sixty one. He's dressing in a way that is very

0:12:07.222 --> 0:12:11.102
<v Speaker 1>celebrity well main character, main fashion character.

0:12:11.302 --> 0:12:13.982
<v Speaker 3>The tied eye number, which was like a tied eyed

0:12:14.062 --> 0:12:16.902
<v Speaker 3>T shirt with like a tight eye pant, and then

0:12:16.982 --> 0:12:19.262
<v Speaker 3>like the blue velvet jacket. It's not what we know,

0:12:19.462 --> 0:12:19.982
<v Speaker 3>Brad Pitt.

0:12:20.222 --> 0:12:23.222
<v Speaker 1>It's not. And if you were looking at this cynically

0:12:23.702 --> 0:12:27.582
<v Speaker 1>or perhaps pragmatically, you would say, how do you draw

0:12:27.622 --> 0:12:30.702
<v Speaker 1>attention away from all of this? You have a beautiful girlfriend.

0:12:30.782 --> 0:12:33.062
<v Speaker 1>He's got a girlfriend who's been with for quite some

0:12:33.222 --> 0:12:36.582
<v Speaker 1>time and names Ines de Ramon. She is a sales

0:12:36.662 --> 0:12:39.742
<v Speaker 1>associate for a high and jewelry company. She looks quite

0:12:39.742 --> 0:12:43.542
<v Speaker 1>a lot like Ama Clooney actually, and they've been seen

0:12:43.582 --> 0:12:46.262
<v Speaker 1>out and about together. They went public about a year ago.

0:12:46.822 --> 0:12:49.582
<v Speaker 1>He's outside a lot, so they're being photographed together a lot.

0:12:50.102 --> 0:12:52.862
<v Speaker 1>He's drawing a lot of attention with his clothes. There's

0:12:52.902 --> 0:12:57.182
<v Speaker 1>a lot for people to be distracted by yeah, and

0:12:57.222 --> 0:12:58.502
<v Speaker 1>I think that's very strategic.

0:12:59.022 --> 0:13:03.342
<v Speaker 2>It's so interesting because like a lot of gen X women,

0:13:03.502 --> 0:13:06.222
<v Speaker 2>like Brad Pitt is an icon, Like here's an absolute

0:13:06.422 --> 0:13:08.982
<v Speaker 2>icon to me. You know, Felmer and Luise. That made

0:13:08.982 --> 0:13:12.182
<v Speaker 2>a very big impression at a very impressionable age, and

0:13:12.222 --> 0:13:14.222
<v Speaker 2>then you think about the movies that he's been in,

0:13:14.502 --> 0:13:18.382
<v Speaker 2>you think about that career. True cancelation, in a way

0:13:18.542 --> 0:13:21.302
<v Speaker 2>is when you can, as you said before, Jesse, you

0:13:21.342 --> 0:13:25.422
<v Speaker 2>can no longer look at that person without thinking about

0:13:25.462 --> 0:13:27.982
<v Speaker 2>a lot of very disturbing shit. That is certainly the

0:13:27.982 --> 0:13:29.822
<v Speaker 2>way I feel about Johnny Depp these days. I used

0:13:29.862 --> 0:13:31.582
<v Speaker 2>to be a big Johnny Depp fan once upon a time.

0:13:32.182 --> 0:13:37.022
<v Speaker 2>I can't. I just can't watch him now being Jack Sparrow,

0:13:37.222 --> 0:13:40.222
<v Speaker 2>being anything. Everything about him is it now and I

0:13:40.262 --> 0:13:43.822
<v Speaker 2>can't look at him. Brad Pitt is not quite Johnny

0:13:43.822 --> 0:13:46.622
<v Speaker 2>Depp character yet. He's not guzzling red wine for breakfast

0:13:46.622 --> 0:13:48.862
<v Speaker 2>and winging about being a victim like he's not that

0:13:48.942 --> 0:13:54.862
<v Speaker 2>he's going on these kind of shows and a very relatable,

0:13:55.022 --> 0:13:58.902
<v Speaker 2>I think, repentant, although he doesn't spell out his like

0:13:58.942 --> 0:14:00.662
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that.

0:14:00.702 --> 0:14:03.422
<v Speaker 2>The whole vibe about AA. It's about taking responsibility for

0:14:03.422 --> 0:14:07.462
<v Speaker 2>your fuck ups. He's taking a very repentant thing. But

0:14:07.582 --> 0:14:09.381
<v Speaker 2>then I like to play a little game in my head,

0:14:09.382 --> 0:14:11.942
<v Speaker 2>which I know is simplistic, but it's called let's imagine

0:14:11.942 --> 0:14:15.822
<v Speaker 2>Brad Pitt was a woman, and let's imagine that there

0:14:15.902 --> 0:14:18.662
<v Speaker 2>was a very high profile actress who many moons ago

0:14:18.742 --> 0:14:22.782
<v Speaker 2>publicly cheated on her much beloved famous husband, went off

0:14:22.862 --> 0:14:27.182
<v Speaker 2>and built a family with somebody else. Obviously, the physical

0:14:27.222 --> 0:14:29.662
<v Speaker 2>abuse thing is hard to gender flip, but let's imagine

0:14:29.662 --> 0:14:33.502
<v Speaker 2>that that marriage fell apart in acrimonious, drawn out things,

0:14:33.542 --> 0:14:36.502
<v Speaker 2>and then she was now estranged from her six children

0:14:36.942 --> 0:14:38.902
<v Speaker 2>that she'd had in that marriage. Is she getting offered

0:14:38.902 --> 0:14:43.262
<v Speaker 2>three hundred million dollar movies? It's laughable, It's not even it's.

0:14:43.142 --> 0:14:46.782
<v Speaker 3>Not just estranged. Remember when I think it was his

0:14:47.022 --> 0:14:50.782
<v Speaker 3>eldest child posted on Instagram on Father's Day basically being like,

0:14:50.862 --> 0:14:54.062
<v Speaker 3>my dad is an asshole. Like he just essentially just

0:14:54.302 --> 0:14:57.182
<v Speaker 3>sprayed him on social media. So you can imagine how

0:14:57.182 --> 0:14:59.462
<v Speaker 3>those kids kind of feel about him.

0:14:59.782 --> 0:15:01.622
<v Speaker 1>You know this sense, I've got it of it. Jesse

0:15:02.062 --> 0:15:04.302
<v Speaker 1>is like, you know, Michelle Obama's when they go low,

0:15:04.382 --> 0:15:08.462
<v Speaker 1>we go hi when they split. In custody, Brad got

0:15:08.502 --> 0:15:13.342
<v Speaker 1>Hollywood all the reasons that you said, Wow, he's a producer,

0:15:13.702 --> 0:15:19.542
<v Speaker 1>his box office, he's clooney, here's the power in that

0:15:19.662 --> 0:15:22.462
<v Speaker 1>he was always the power and together they were amazing

0:15:22.622 --> 0:15:25.822
<v Speaker 1>and you know, a huge story. But he got custody

0:15:25.862 --> 0:15:30.022
<v Speaker 1>of Hollywood, and he also got custody essentially of public opinion,

0:15:30.062 --> 0:15:31.782
<v Speaker 1>because there are a lot of people who still have

0:15:31.862 --> 0:15:36.502
<v Speaker 1>not forgiven Angelina Jali for what she did to Jennifer Anniston,

0:15:36.582 --> 0:15:39.782
<v Speaker 1>even though she wasn't married at the time he was.

0:15:39.902 --> 0:15:41.982
<v Speaker 3>And remember he got up since this happened, and we

0:15:42.022 --> 0:15:45.622
<v Speaker 3>didn't know yet about these allegations, but since that happened,

0:15:45.622 --> 0:15:48.302
<v Speaker 3>he's won an Oscar and he stood on stage and

0:15:48.382 --> 0:15:50.062
<v Speaker 3>he said, I'm going to add this to my Tinder

0:15:50.062 --> 0:15:52.462
<v Speaker 3>profile and then he said, oh, a movie about a

0:15:52.502 --> 0:15:55.542
<v Speaker 3>divorce and this and a that like really hard like

0:15:55.622 --> 0:15:58.622
<v Speaker 3>he made kind of jokes about this kind of stuff.

0:15:58.662 --> 0:16:00.582
<v Speaker 1>And he was well known to have had a team

0:16:00.622 --> 0:16:02.982
<v Speaker 1>of writers when he was on that award circuit. All

0:16:03.022 --> 0:16:06.982
<v Speaker 1>his speeches at every awards ceremony were knockout, which is fine,

0:16:06.982 --> 0:16:09.302
<v Speaker 1>that's all part of campaigning. But it's so interesting that

0:16:09.302 --> 0:16:11.422
<v Speaker 1>he's got this kind of I don't care, you know,

0:16:11.582 --> 0:16:13.862
<v Speaker 1>I just happened to be very good looking and very successful.

0:16:14.222 --> 0:16:15.102
<v Speaker 2>But there's a lot of.

0:16:15.102 --> 0:16:16.942
<v Speaker 1>Paddling that goes under the surface. But back to the

0:16:16.982 --> 0:16:21.102
<v Speaker 1>low and high. I feel like what Angelina Jolie's done

0:16:21.342 --> 0:16:25.302
<v Speaker 1>is that she's chosen the children. So she's the one

0:16:25.342 --> 0:16:29.422
<v Speaker 1>that said, I'm not going to speak the truth. I'm

0:16:29.462 --> 0:16:32.262
<v Speaker 1>not going to tell people what really happened because I

0:16:32.302 --> 0:16:34.142
<v Speaker 1>don't want to distress the children and I want to

0:16:34.182 --> 0:16:37.622
<v Speaker 1>protect the children. And she's suffered for that and he hasn't.

0:16:38.022 --> 0:16:39.982
<v Speaker 3>Before we move on, can we please talk about this

0:16:40.022 --> 0:16:42.942
<v Speaker 3>Simone Ashley story, because I keep saying the headlines everywhere

0:16:43.382 --> 0:16:45.862
<v Speaker 3>that she has been doing so much press for this

0:16:46.022 --> 0:16:49.102
<v Speaker 3>F one movie. We should say Simone Ashley, she was

0:16:49.142 --> 0:16:51.502
<v Speaker 3>in Bridgeton, she was in sex Education. She's really on

0:16:51.542 --> 0:16:53.422
<v Speaker 3>the rise, but this F one movie was meant to

0:16:53.462 --> 0:16:57.582
<v Speaker 3>be like her big break. And she provided all these

0:16:57.982 --> 0:17:00.662
<v Speaker 3>comments to the media. She'd an interview with Variety where

0:17:00.662 --> 0:17:03.662
<v Speaker 3>she was like, it's so exciting to be cast in

0:17:03.702 --> 0:17:04.302
<v Speaker 3>this movie.

0:17:04.422 --> 0:17:06.742
<v Speaker 1>That's a big break for her. She's very much a

0:17:06.782 --> 0:17:09.381
<v Speaker 1>rising star. Was she the love interest or a love interest?

0:17:09.702 --> 0:17:11.421
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know Mayor, and you know why, I

0:17:11.422 --> 0:17:15.182
<v Speaker 3>don't know, because she has been completely cut from the film.

0:17:15.381 --> 0:17:17.542
<v Speaker 3>People went watched the film after watching her doing all

0:17:17.542 --> 0:17:20.701
<v Speaker 3>of this promotional stuff, and she's in the background in

0:17:20.742 --> 0:17:22.821
<v Speaker 3>like a couple of shots or whatever, doesn't have any

0:17:22.861 --> 0:17:26.061
<v Speaker 3>speaking roles. And what people are really annoyed about is

0:17:26.101 --> 0:17:29.502
<v Speaker 3>that they're going, this is a movie predominantly about men,

0:17:29.621 --> 0:17:32.141
<v Speaker 3>right like It's f one is very much about men

0:17:32.182 --> 0:17:34.022
<v Speaker 3>are in the driver's seat, men are behind the scenes.

0:17:34.061 --> 0:17:37.022
<v Speaker 3>A lot of women watch it, but what the director

0:17:37.182 --> 0:17:40.942
<v Speaker 3>appeared to do was kind of simone. Ashley did an

0:17:40.982 --> 0:17:44.621
<v Speaker 3>exclusive interview with Variety about the film about being cast

0:17:44.661 --> 0:17:47.101
<v Speaker 3>in the film in July last year, and then speaking

0:17:47.141 --> 0:17:49.462
<v Speaker 3>with Glamour, she was talking about the director and she said,

0:17:49.462 --> 0:17:51.421
<v Speaker 3>he was so open to hearing my ideas about the

0:17:51.502 --> 0:17:53.341
<v Speaker 3>character and what it means to be a female character

0:17:53.381 --> 0:17:55.861
<v Speaker 3>within a story like this. I love seeing more women

0:17:55.901 --> 0:17:58.461
<v Speaker 3>in the driver's seat. And then she's been cut.

0:17:59.022 --> 0:18:02.261
<v Speaker 1>The optics of that are terrible. Jesse, did I not

0:18:02.302 --> 0:18:05.141
<v Speaker 1>see her on the red carpet for the premere and then.

0:18:05.061 --> 0:18:07.221
<v Speaker 3>She turned up on a red carpet recently, which I

0:18:07.262 --> 0:18:08.222
<v Speaker 3>don't fully understand.

0:18:08.381 --> 0:18:08.982
<v Speaker 1>The ball of move.

0:18:09.101 --> 0:18:10.902
<v Speaker 3>It's a ball move because by that point I think

0:18:10.901 --> 0:18:13.022
<v Speaker 3>she knew she wasn't in it. I didn't know this

0:18:13.182 --> 0:18:15.461
<v Speaker 3>was even a thing. I've heard about actors who turn

0:18:15.542 --> 0:18:17.061
<v Speaker 3>up to the premiere watch it and they're like, oh,

0:18:17.061 --> 0:18:18.861
<v Speaker 3>I was cut. I didn't realize that.

0:18:19.061 --> 0:18:20.182
<v Speaker 2>Apparently it's a real thing.

0:18:20.422 --> 0:18:23.021
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. When we went to the Strife screening with the

0:18:23.061 --> 0:18:26.182
<v Speaker 1>cast for season two and for season one, they hadn't

0:18:26.222 --> 0:18:29.302
<v Speaker 1>seen it before, so they didn't know how much they

0:18:29.341 --> 0:18:32.181
<v Speaker 1>were going to be in it, which, yeah, I was

0:18:32.222 --> 0:18:35.061
<v Speaker 1>shocked by that too. But oh, Samie Ashley's extraordinary. If

0:18:35.061 --> 0:18:37.262
<v Speaker 1>you want to see some of her best work season

0:18:37.341 --> 0:18:37.702
<v Speaker 1>two of.

0:18:37.661 --> 0:18:40.981
<v Speaker 3>Bridges and oh, she's amazing in a moment, Are you

0:18:41.182 --> 0:18:44.821
<v Speaker 3>a maximizer or a satisficer? And if you think I'm

0:18:44.861 --> 0:18:47.581
<v Speaker 3>saying that weird, I will explain what that word actually means.

0:18:47.861 --> 0:18:55.742
<v Speaker 3>We'll tell you after the break. Are you a maximizer

0:18:56.061 --> 0:18:57.422
<v Speaker 3>or a satisficer?

0:18:57.621 --> 0:19:00.022
<v Speaker 1>I keep thinking that you're saying satisfier but with a

0:19:00.061 --> 0:19:01.421
<v Speaker 1>speech in perfect can.

0:19:01.302 --> 0:19:03.542
<v Speaker 3>I just explain that this is a word that is

0:19:03.581 --> 0:19:07.821
<v Speaker 3>a mix of two words, which is satisfier and suffice,

0:19:08.422 --> 0:19:10.621
<v Speaker 3>And so that's why there's a wed on the end,

0:19:10.661 --> 0:19:12.542
<v Speaker 3>and I'm saying it's slightly wrong every time. I just

0:19:12.542 --> 0:19:13.982
<v Speaker 3>think we've got to put that on the table.

0:19:14.141 --> 0:19:14.302
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:19:15.101 --> 0:19:17.581
<v Speaker 2>It's not a real word. It's constructed. Yea.

0:19:17.861 --> 0:19:21.261
<v Speaker 3>I learned these two terms recently while listening to a

0:19:21.302 --> 0:19:24.782
<v Speaker 3>philosopher named Agnes Callard talk about marriage. Have either of

0:19:24.821 --> 0:19:26.222
<v Speaker 3>you ever heard an interview with her or read the

0:19:26.222 --> 0:19:26.701
<v Speaker 3>New York.

0:19:26.542 --> 0:19:27.542
<v Speaker 1>Times profile one time?

0:19:27.861 --> 0:19:31.462
<v Speaker 3>Okay, she's this really interesting philosopher. She's with her husband,

0:19:31.542 --> 0:19:35.461
<v Speaker 3>long term relationship, two kids, very happy, happy relationship. She

0:19:35.502 --> 0:19:37.101
<v Speaker 3>then goes to work and she starts working with this

0:19:37.182 --> 0:19:39.902
<v Speaker 3>new guy. Things are fine, she has an interesting relationship

0:19:39.901 --> 0:19:41.422
<v Speaker 3>with him, and then she goes into work one day

0:19:41.462 --> 0:19:43.021
<v Speaker 3>and this guy is a little bit younger than her

0:19:43.742 --> 0:19:45.421
<v Speaker 3>says I've fallen in love with you.

0:19:45.661 --> 0:19:46.262
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god.

0:19:46.302 --> 0:19:47.342
<v Speaker 2>And she's this in real life.

0:19:47.381 --> 0:19:48.981
<v Speaker 3>This is in real life, this is her real story.

0:19:49.341 --> 0:19:51.621
<v Speaker 3>And she looks at him and goes, oh wow, I

0:19:51.621 --> 0:19:54.302
<v Speaker 3>think I've fallen in love with you too. She walks

0:19:54.302 --> 0:19:56.821
<v Speaker 3>out of that kind of interaction and she goes, what

0:19:56.861 --> 0:19:58.941
<v Speaker 3>am I to do? She's a philosopher, right, So she

0:19:58.942 --> 0:20:01.621
<v Speaker 3>thinks about this stuff a lot, and she goes up

0:20:01.661 --> 0:20:03.821
<v Speaker 3>to her husband a few days later, and goes, I

0:20:03.821 --> 0:20:05.302
<v Speaker 3>think I've fallen in love with someone else, and I

0:20:05.302 --> 0:20:07.462
<v Speaker 3>don't know what to do. So she just tried kind

0:20:07.542 --> 0:20:11.782
<v Speaker 3>of honesty to see what happened. And her husband, also

0:20:11.782 --> 0:20:13.061
<v Speaker 3>a philosopher.

0:20:13.702 --> 0:20:17.502
<v Speaker 1>When shout on a mountain, thought.

0:20:17.302 --> 0:20:21.101
<v Speaker 3>About it and just kind of when that happens in relationships, right,

0:20:21.502 --> 0:20:24.581
<v Speaker 3>So she leads a husband for this new guy, and

0:20:24.581 --> 0:20:28.222
<v Speaker 3>then the interesting point is that she now lives in

0:20:28.262 --> 0:20:31.181
<v Speaker 3>a house with her ex husband, the two kids, and

0:20:31.222 --> 0:20:31.661
<v Speaker 3>the new.

0:20:31.542 --> 0:20:34.302
<v Speaker 1>Guy, and I bet no voice is are raised. There's

0:20:34.341 --> 0:20:36.262
<v Speaker 1>just a lot of thoughtful comments there is there is

0:20:36.901 --> 0:20:39.821
<v Speaker 1>anyway she's still romantically involved with her ex husband.

0:20:39.901 --> 0:20:43.742
<v Speaker 3>No, no, so they yes, yes, She's like, I love him.

0:20:44.262 --> 0:20:46.782
<v Speaker 3>She's got a really interesting view of romantic love where

0:20:46.821 --> 0:20:50.981
<v Speaker 3>she's like it's a way of experiencing and exploring a

0:20:51.022 --> 0:20:53.661
<v Speaker 3>new identity, like I've become a different person with this

0:20:53.782 --> 0:20:57.341
<v Speaker 3>version of And she has this quote that was like,

0:20:57.502 --> 0:21:01.061
<v Speaker 3>thinking is something we do out loud with other people anyway,

0:21:01.182 --> 0:21:04.022
<v Speaker 3>really mayor on a podcast, exactly right, thinking is something

0:21:04.061 --> 0:21:06.661
<v Speaker 3>I do with you bitches. So story is fascinating, and

0:21:06.661 --> 0:21:08.621
<v Speaker 3>I recommend you read the New York Times profile. But

0:21:09.302 --> 0:21:13.662
<v Speaker 3>she'll about when it comes to marriage. She is a maximizer,

0:21:13.942 --> 0:21:17.061
<v Speaker 3>and she thinks that so are most women. A maximizer

0:21:17.262 --> 0:21:21.821
<v Speaker 3>is aspirational. They want the absolute best. They want the marriage,

0:21:21.861 --> 0:21:24.302
<v Speaker 3>the friendship's, the workplace to be perfect. They think there's

0:21:24.341 --> 0:21:29.702
<v Speaker 3>kind of an optimal experience, right. Satisfices, on the other hand,

0:21:30.101 --> 0:21:34.061
<v Speaker 3>are good enough people. They settle, they make decisions quickly,

0:21:34.222 --> 0:21:37.061
<v Speaker 3>they don't get hung up on the best outcome. And

0:21:37.101 --> 0:21:39.982
<v Speaker 3>she says this is why it's often women who end

0:21:40.141 --> 0:21:44.141
<v Speaker 3>marriages because they want more whereas men are and this

0:21:44.182 --> 0:21:47.662
<v Speaker 3>is enormous generalization content with good enough. And she talks

0:21:47.661 --> 0:21:49.942
<v Speaker 3>about this analogy of kind of going to a restaurant

0:21:49.942 --> 0:21:53.342
<v Speaker 3>and the menu, and she says that satisfices will take

0:21:53.381 --> 0:21:55.061
<v Speaker 3>one look at the menu or they'll say, you know

0:21:55.101 --> 0:21:57.022
<v Speaker 3>what you order for me? I don't care, like there

0:21:57.061 --> 0:22:01.222
<v Speaker 3>is no optimal decision whatever, And the maximizer will fret

0:22:01.341 --> 0:22:03.302
<v Speaker 3>they're the one who looks up the menu before you go,

0:22:03.422 --> 0:22:05.981
<v Speaker 3>because they're just like I think I can make the

0:22:06.022 --> 0:22:06.742
<v Speaker 3>best decision.

0:22:07.581 --> 0:22:09.861
<v Speaker 1>They need to optimize everything.

0:22:09.581 --> 0:22:13.022
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly right, and get the maximum out of every experience.

0:22:13.262 --> 0:22:15.061
<v Speaker 3>Does this ring true to you?

0:22:15.661 --> 0:22:17.181
<v Speaker 2>Yes, one hundred percent.

0:22:17.302 --> 0:22:18.261
<v Speaker 3>Are you a maximizer?

0:22:18.502 --> 0:22:18.581
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:22:19.141 --> 0:22:21.781
<v Speaker 2>Really, I'm not a maximizer. When I was looking at

0:22:21.782 --> 0:22:24.302
<v Speaker 2>the definitions here and they said things like a maximizer,

0:22:24.341 --> 0:22:27.141
<v Speaker 2>if they're going to buy a car, a washing machine,

0:22:27.182 --> 0:22:31.182
<v Speaker 2>or lunch, they will do all of the research. They

0:22:31.222 --> 0:22:34.382
<v Speaker 2>will stew over it because they can't bear the idea

0:22:34.422 --> 0:22:37.381
<v Speaker 2>that they might buy the dishwasher and then find out

0:22:37.422 --> 0:22:39.501
<v Speaker 2>tomorrow that there's one that has half a star more

0:22:39.581 --> 0:22:42.621
<v Speaker 2>rating somewhere. Yeah, that is not me. I am not

0:22:42.702 --> 0:22:45.302
<v Speaker 2>even a little bit like that, No way, I reckon.

0:22:45.302 --> 0:22:48.421
<v Speaker 2>There are areas in my life where I'm a maximizer,

0:22:48.821 --> 0:22:51.821
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not an across the board maximizer. So not

0:22:51.901 --> 0:22:54.982
<v Speaker 2>the dishwasher. But yes, lunch, I will walk past twenty

0:22:55.061 --> 0:22:58.061
<v Speaker 2>five sandwich shops to go to the one that has

0:22:58.101 --> 0:23:01.101
<v Speaker 2>the thing that I deem the best. But I don't

0:23:01.182 --> 0:23:04.701
<v Speaker 2>like doing lots of research. I don't like stewing on

0:23:04.742 --> 0:23:07.582
<v Speaker 2>things till they're perfect. So no, I don't think I'm

0:23:07.581 --> 0:23:09.381
<v Speaker 2>a maximizer. How about you, ma'am.

0:23:09.821 --> 0:23:14.981
<v Speaker 1>I'm also a satisfycer, I think because even though inherently

0:23:15.061 --> 0:23:19.581
<v Speaker 1>I think women, as you say, are programmed for self optimization,

0:23:19.782 --> 0:23:22.982
<v Speaker 1>Like there's a reason that self help is so big

0:23:23.022 --> 0:23:27.101
<v Speaker 1>with women it's women who are constantly trying to optimize.

0:23:27.542 --> 0:23:32.182
<v Speaker 1>Improve our appearance, improve our careers, improve our wardrobe, improve

0:23:32.222 --> 0:23:36.942
<v Speaker 1>our relationships, improve our friendships, improve our personalities. I think

0:23:37.022 --> 0:23:40.821
<v Speaker 1>that's because society tells us, and we've internalized this idea

0:23:40.821 --> 0:23:44.461
<v Speaker 1>that we're not good enough and that there's something lacking

0:23:44.502 --> 0:23:48.302
<v Speaker 1>in us and that we need to be better. Whereas

0:23:48.341 --> 0:23:52.622
<v Speaker 1>I think from a male point of view, they are

0:23:52.621 --> 0:23:55.422
<v Speaker 1>told by society that they're pretty great.

0:23:55.381 --> 0:23:55.902
<v Speaker 2>All the time.

0:23:56.101 --> 0:23:58.221
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no matter what, no matter how they look, no

0:23:58.262 --> 0:23:58.902
<v Speaker 1>matter what they do.

0:23:58.982 --> 0:24:00.982
<v Speaker 2>It's like we're interesting.

0:24:01.061 --> 0:24:03.862
<v Speaker 3>So Callard has written a lot about aspiration, and her

0:24:03.982 --> 0:24:07.782
<v Speaker 3>definition of someone being aspirational is as soon as you

0:24:07.861 --> 0:24:10.702
<v Speaker 3>get to the point of appreciating that thing that you've

0:24:10.702 --> 0:24:14.302
<v Speaker 3>aspired to pretty well, you are sort of itching for

0:24:14.341 --> 0:24:14.942
<v Speaker 3>something new.

0:24:15.061 --> 0:24:17.902
<v Speaker 2>Oh, in areas of my life one hundred percent. See

0:24:17.942 --> 0:24:21.261
<v Speaker 2>I think this unless you are personally programmed. And some

0:24:21.302 --> 0:24:25.022
<v Speaker 2>people definitely are to care equally about all the things

0:24:25.022 --> 0:24:27.141
<v Speaker 2>and they have to have the best of absolutely everything.

0:24:27.782 --> 0:24:30.621
<v Speaker 2>Most of us probably are maximizers in areas we care

0:24:30.661 --> 0:24:32.542
<v Speaker 2>about more than others. So like in work, I reckon

0:24:32.621 --> 0:24:35.381
<v Speaker 2>I'm probably a maximizer. Like I care a lot, I

0:24:35.422 --> 0:24:39.381
<v Speaker 2>work really hard. I'm ambitious, I strive. But if I

0:24:39.422 --> 0:24:40.901
<v Speaker 2>put my hand on my heart, could I say I'm

0:24:40.982 --> 0:24:44.341
<v Speaker 2>like that in all my relationships, my friendships, my family relationships.

0:24:44.341 --> 0:24:46.661
<v Speaker 2>Am I trying every day to be the best friend,

0:24:46.702 --> 0:24:50.102
<v Speaker 2>the best partner, the best lover, the best daughter. No.

0:24:50.861 --> 0:24:54.982
<v Speaker 3>Experts say, Holly, that you're healthy. Experts say that what

0:24:55.022 --> 0:24:57.702
<v Speaker 3>you want is for the high stakes decisions.

0:24:58.422 --> 0:25:00.701
<v Speaker 2>Those maybe.

0:25:02.061 --> 0:25:06.942
<v Speaker 3>The high stakes decisions we're meant to be maximizers. And

0:25:06.982 --> 0:25:09.502
<v Speaker 3>then for the little things that don't really matter.

0:25:09.661 --> 0:25:11.501
<v Speaker 1>Like our relationship.

0:25:11.101 --> 0:25:15.262
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, don't worry about those. And experts says that's really

0:25:15.302 --> 0:25:22.502
<v Speaker 3>important that maximizers do better but are less happy. And

0:25:22.542 --> 0:25:25.102
<v Speaker 3>I found that quite interesting, because I think I'm a maximizer, right.

0:25:25.182 --> 0:25:27.381
<v Speaker 3>I think that not in everything, as you say, Holly,

0:25:27.462 --> 0:25:29.621
<v Speaker 3>but I certainly think that. I get to a point

0:25:29.621 --> 0:25:31.462
<v Speaker 3>and then I start getting itchy again, and then I go,

0:25:31.621 --> 0:25:34.421
<v Speaker 3>all right, I've got to maximize. I need to make

0:25:34.542 --> 0:25:39.581
<v Speaker 3>this situation or this relationship or whatever more optimal, more perfect.

0:25:39.901 --> 0:25:42.102
<v Speaker 3>And I can get quite paralyzed by wanting to make

0:25:42.141 --> 0:25:45.061
<v Speaker 3>the perfect decision. But the irony is that even if

0:25:45.101 --> 0:25:47.861
<v Speaker 3>you make better decisions, and even if you end up

0:25:48.262 --> 0:25:50.502
<v Speaker 3>landing on your feet in a really good job. Because

0:25:50.542 --> 0:25:53.381
<v Speaker 3>you did all of that analysis, you're less happy and

0:25:53.422 --> 0:25:58.941
<v Speaker 3>satisfices are more happy with shitter decisions. So what's the matter?

0:25:58.982 --> 0:26:00.342
<v Speaker 2>Because I think that's true.

0:26:00.422 --> 0:26:03.782
<v Speaker 1>I think that sometimes too much choice, too much opportunity,

0:26:04.702 --> 0:26:07.782
<v Speaker 1>can make you feel unsatisfied if you always think there's

0:26:07.782 --> 0:26:10.382
<v Speaker 1>something better out there, you know, like the person who

0:26:10.462 --> 0:26:12.781
<v Speaker 1>orders and then they look at what everybody else got

0:26:12.821 --> 0:26:14.901
<v Speaker 1>and they're like, oh damn, yours looks better than mine.

0:26:14.942 --> 0:26:18.542
<v Speaker 1>Like I don't hold onto things like I'm just like

0:26:18.742 --> 0:26:21.182
<v Speaker 1>I'm the person who looks at the menu like yeah,

0:26:21.222 --> 0:26:21.621
<v Speaker 1>that'll do.

0:26:21.861 --> 0:26:26.222
<v Speaker 2>But my partner Brenn is definitely such a fice sung Jesus,

0:26:26.381 --> 0:26:28.302
<v Speaker 2>it's been ten minutes and still can't get it right

0:26:28.861 --> 0:26:32.341
<v Speaker 2>in that that classic example of menus and it drives

0:26:32.381 --> 0:26:35.461
<v Speaker 2>me nuts is will sit down to eat and I

0:26:35.502 --> 0:26:37.581
<v Speaker 2>will have looked at it and decided and gone, yeah,

0:26:37.621 --> 0:26:39.861
<v Speaker 2>that sounds great, and then he just goes, yeah that

0:26:39.861 --> 0:26:43.022
<v Speaker 2>sounds good, me too, And it drives me nuts. I'm

0:26:43.061 --> 0:26:47.262
<v Speaker 2>like your own he doesn't care more aspirational. He's also

0:26:47.341 --> 0:26:49.181
<v Speaker 2>gonna like whatever it is, you know what I mean, Like,

0:26:49.262 --> 0:26:51.102
<v Speaker 2>he's not gonna care I see.

0:26:50.942 --> 0:26:53.382
<v Speaker 1>I'm the opposite. So my thing is anyone that takes

0:26:53.422 --> 0:26:55.302
<v Speaker 1>too long to order, and I'm just like, just fucking

0:26:55.422 --> 0:26:57.982
<v Speaker 1>order anything like I didn't it just because I'm married

0:26:57.982 --> 0:27:02.502
<v Speaker 1>to a maximizer who wants everything, has very high standards,

0:27:02.502 --> 0:27:05.581
<v Speaker 1>and wants everything to be the best.

0:27:06.022 --> 0:27:08.462
<v Speaker 3>My mum has a mantra that I try to live

0:27:08.502 --> 0:27:10.901
<v Speaker 3>by because she knows better than anyone, and she says,

0:27:11.182 --> 0:27:13.222
<v Speaker 3>the best decision is the decision you make.

0:27:13.341 --> 0:27:17.262
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'm like, don't let perfect be the enemy of

0:27:17.381 --> 0:27:21.982
<v Speaker 1>done friends. As the only vegetarian on this podcast, I

0:27:22.022 --> 0:27:26.902
<v Speaker 1>have appointed myself our nature correspondent. Okay, well, I don't

0:27:26.901 --> 0:27:28.861
<v Speaker 1>care that much about nature, but I care about animals

0:27:28.901 --> 0:27:29.902
<v Speaker 1>in particular.

0:27:29.581 --> 0:27:31.902
<v Speaker 3>And I'll have it on the record. I also care

0:27:31.942 --> 0:27:33.262
<v Speaker 3>about animals. Do you.

0:27:35.302 --> 0:27:37.181
<v Speaker 1>Like to stop eating them? Jesse? That's all I'm going

0:27:37.262 --> 0:27:39.182
<v Speaker 1>to say. I have an Orca update.

0:27:40.141 --> 0:27:41.502
<v Speaker 3>Were they wearing salmona's hats?

0:27:41.702 --> 0:27:45.662
<v Speaker 1>Yes? Orca's are killer whales and they have just been

0:27:45.782 --> 0:27:50.022
<v Speaker 1>filmed making tools out of kelp to give each other massages.

0:27:50.381 --> 0:27:53.061
<v Speaker 3>No, they worry me, Holly, really clever. They're too clever.

0:27:53.502 --> 0:27:54.542
<v Speaker 3>They're cleverer than we are.

0:27:54.742 --> 0:27:57.502
<v Speaker 1>What's happened is that Michael Wice, who is a research

0:27:57.542 --> 0:28:00.181
<v Speaker 1>director of the Center for Whale Research in the US,

0:28:00.901 --> 0:28:04.342
<v Speaker 1>says that it is certainly the first case of a cetacean,

0:28:04.542 --> 0:28:07.901
<v Speaker 1>which is a whale, dolphin, or porpoise, finding an object

0:28:07.942 --> 0:28:11.182
<v Speaker 1>in their environment, modifying that object and using it as

0:28:11.182 --> 0:28:14.421
<v Speaker 1>a tool, not just any tool, though, a tool for

0:28:14.502 --> 0:28:16.222
<v Speaker 1>pleasuring other workers.

0:28:16.901 --> 0:28:18.221
<v Speaker 3>They're evolving too far, they are.

0:28:18.262 --> 0:28:19.861
<v Speaker 2>They getting smarter all the time.

0:28:19.942 --> 0:28:21.861
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's a sexy massage. I think it's

0:28:21.901 --> 0:28:26.261
<v Speaker 1>just a nice massage. But they filmed these interactions with

0:28:26.422 --> 0:28:29.701
<v Speaker 1>drone cameras in the Salish Sea, which is the Canadian

0:28:29.742 --> 0:28:32.581
<v Speaker 1>province of British Columbia in Washington. In case you're wondering

0:28:32.621 --> 0:28:35.421
<v Speaker 1>why they do it, doctor Weese says, it's clearly not

0:28:35.621 --> 0:28:38.181
<v Speaker 1>just a strange, quirky, one off behavior. It is a

0:28:38.222 --> 0:28:42.181
<v Speaker 1>part of their social lives. Yes, no, yes, they're maximizers.

0:28:42.822 --> 0:28:43.622
<v Speaker 2>They're maximizers.

0:28:43.661 --> 0:28:46.142
<v Speaker 3>That's so true. And I've read that they're like highly social.

0:28:46.222 --> 0:28:48.982
<v Speaker 3>So what remember recently it was like killer whales kept

0:28:48.982 --> 0:28:52.062
<v Speaker 3>attacking boats. It was like contagious. And then if they

0:28:52.062 --> 0:28:54.342
<v Speaker 3>want to take over the world, I'd be very concerned,

0:28:54.382 --> 0:28:54.582
<v Speaker 3>I think.

0:28:54.622 --> 0:28:57.942
<v Speaker 1>And they were wearing Salmona's hats, weren't they after the break?

0:28:57.942 --> 0:29:00.102
<v Speaker 1>If you're wondering why a tall, blonde woman who died

0:29:00.142 --> 0:29:04.102
<v Speaker 1>twenty five years ago very tragically is suddenly making people furious,

0:29:04.462 --> 0:29:06.982
<v Speaker 1>her name is Carolmbusset Kennedy, and I will be taking

0:29:07.062 --> 0:29:09.142
<v Speaker 1>questions in a moment one.

0:29:09.102 --> 0:29:11.862
<v Speaker 2>On limit did it out Loud Access? We drop episodes

0:29:11.902 --> 0:29:16.462
<v Speaker 2>every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow

0:29:16.462 --> 0:29:17.981
<v Speaker 2>the link at the show notes to get us in

0:29:18.022 --> 0:29:21.182
<v Speaker 2>your ears five days a week, and a huge thank

0:29:21.222 --> 0:29:29.221
<v Speaker 2>you to all our current subscribers.

0:29:31.102 --> 0:29:35.942
<v Speaker 1>Carolyn Bessett Kennedy has long been a fascination among a

0:29:35.982 --> 0:29:39.822
<v Speaker 1>certain group of women, of which I am one. She

0:29:39.942 --> 0:29:43.582
<v Speaker 1>became very famous in the early nineties when she started

0:29:43.661 --> 0:29:47.941
<v Speaker 1>dating and then married JFK. Junior, before they both died

0:29:48.022 --> 0:29:51.582
<v Speaker 1>tragically alongside her sister in a plane crash he was

0:29:51.622 --> 0:29:53.661
<v Speaker 1>piloting a plane there on their way to Martha's vineyard

0:29:53.702 --> 0:29:58.622
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety nine, and ever since then she has

0:29:59.102 --> 0:30:03.741
<v Speaker 1>remained this icon of minimalist style that's really emblematic of

0:30:03.782 --> 0:30:07.142
<v Speaker 1>the nineties. Hold do you remember much of her from

0:30:07.182 --> 0:30:07.782
<v Speaker 1>that time?

0:30:08.062 --> 0:30:13.142
<v Speaker 2>I remember that wedding photo, there's only one photo from

0:30:13.182 --> 0:30:16.022
<v Speaker 2>their wedding, or there's a very iconic one where they're

0:30:16.022 --> 0:30:18.302
<v Speaker 2>coming out of what looks like the most humble little

0:30:18.342 --> 0:30:21.942
<v Speaker 2>weatherboard white chapel ever, and she's wearing just this very

0:30:21.982 --> 0:30:25.382
<v Speaker 2>simple bias cut dress. And the thing is is at

0:30:25.382 --> 0:30:28.421
<v Speaker 2>the time in that certainly in the late eighties, style

0:30:28.582 --> 0:30:30.222
<v Speaker 2>was more and more and more and more more like wet.

0:30:30.342 --> 0:30:32.941
<v Speaker 2>Celebrity wedding dresses were bigger than a house, you know,

0:30:33.022 --> 0:30:35.822
<v Speaker 2>and everything was more like Trump was big, right, so

0:30:35.942 --> 0:30:38.942
<v Speaker 2>gold toilets and all that stuff, and she was the antithesis.

0:30:39.062 --> 0:30:43.302
<v Speaker 2>She was very simple, very beautiful. I was thinking it

0:30:43.302 --> 0:30:45.501
<v Speaker 2>was a bit depressing in a way, how elevated she

0:30:45.622 --> 0:30:47.542
<v Speaker 2>is as an icon because she is like skinny, blonde,

0:30:47.582 --> 0:30:49.902
<v Speaker 2>waspy lady. But then I remember my obsession with Gwyneth,

0:30:49.902 --> 0:30:53.941
<v Speaker 2>and I told myself to sit down, because she's very Gwyneth, right, Yeah,

0:30:53.982 --> 0:30:56.782
<v Speaker 2>like she was very good style before Gwyneth.

0:30:56.942 --> 0:31:01.142
<v Speaker 3>Can I ask why we are hearing so much about

0:31:01.182 --> 0:31:03.501
<v Speaker 3>her at the moment? She feels very in the ZEITGEI.

0:31:03.542 --> 0:31:06.062
<v Speaker 3>So there was that book that's recently come out about her.

0:31:06.102 --> 0:31:07.342
<v Speaker 3>You and Amelia were talking.

0:31:07.102 --> 0:31:10.701
<v Speaker 1>About so, I mean her stories actually depletely tragic, because

0:31:11.302 --> 0:31:15.661
<v Speaker 1>if you think about Princess Diana and Meghan Markle, like

0:31:15.742 --> 0:31:18.421
<v Speaker 1>early Diana without any of the confidence. Meghan Michael's not

0:31:18.502 --> 0:31:21.382
<v Speaker 1>quite right in terms of she was very confident and

0:31:21.422 --> 0:31:23.822
<v Speaker 1>she was a famous actress, and she's been very comfortable

0:31:23.862 --> 0:31:26.902
<v Speaker 1>with public attention, obviously not the trolling. But Carolyn Besset

0:31:26.982 --> 0:31:29.181
<v Speaker 1>Kennedy never wanted to be famous. She worked for Calvin

0:31:29.222 --> 0:31:32.421
<v Speaker 1>Klein behind the scenes. She never did an interview, I

0:31:32.422 --> 0:31:36.662
<v Speaker 1>don't think, and she was absolutely stalked and harassed by paparazzi.

0:31:36.702 --> 0:31:39.221
<v Speaker 1>So they lived in New York and she was on

0:31:39.262 --> 0:31:41.661
<v Speaker 1>the street everywhere. So there's a very limited number of

0:31:41.661 --> 0:31:45.102
<v Speaker 1>photos of her and every outfit that she wore back

0:31:45.102 --> 0:31:47.582
<v Speaker 1>in the nineties, you could look at it now, it

0:31:47.622 --> 0:31:51.221
<v Speaker 1>would look current now, and it's weirdly always looked current

0:31:51.622 --> 0:31:53.422
<v Speaker 1>ever since the early nineties.

0:31:53.542 --> 0:31:56.862
<v Speaker 3>So why am I seeing stuff about like a movie

0:31:56.942 --> 0:31:59.622
<v Speaker 3>coming out and people are mad about the movie exactly?

0:31:59.782 --> 0:32:03.661
<v Speaker 1>So what's happened is that Ryan Murphy, who is the

0:32:03.782 --> 0:32:07.222
<v Speaker 1>producer of all kinds of huge, big Hollywood things, He's

0:32:07.262 --> 0:32:10.902
<v Speaker 1>got a series deal with Netflix. He's making a show

0:32:10.942 --> 0:32:13.302
<v Speaker 1>called American Love Story, which is either a series or

0:32:13.302 --> 0:32:17.502
<v Speaker 1>a film I'm not sure for streaming about JFK Jr.

0:32:17.742 --> 0:32:21.701
<v Speaker 1>And carolmber Set Kennedy because it was hugely part in

0:32:21.742 --> 0:32:25.622
<v Speaker 1>that same way when Diana died, all of the world

0:32:25.661 --> 0:32:29.102
<v Speaker 1>and the UK went into shock and grief the Kennedys

0:32:29.462 --> 0:32:32.462
<v Speaker 1>like American royalty, and when he died tragically and suddenly

0:32:32.542 --> 0:32:35.102
<v Speaker 1>all these things about the Kennedy curse and the women

0:32:35.382 --> 0:32:38.501
<v Speaker 1>who encountered the Kennedy's and what happens to them. So

0:32:38.542 --> 0:32:41.421
<v Speaker 1>there's been absolute public fascination. It was super smart of

0:32:41.502 --> 0:32:45.542
<v Speaker 1>him to decide to make this show about them. However,

0:32:45.822 --> 0:32:49.421
<v Speaker 1>on the weekend last weekend, he released a series of

0:32:49.462 --> 0:32:52.742
<v Speaker 1>photos of the actor and actress who've been cast to play.

0:32:53.182 --> 0:32:56.181
<v Speaker 1>A newcomer called Paul Kelly's playing JFK. Junior, and an

0:32:56.222 --> 0:32:58.622
<v Speaker 1>actress I'm not familiar with called Sarah Pigeon is playing

0:32:58.702 --> 0:33:03.262
<v Speaker 1>carolynber Set Kennedy. Now, he says they were just camera tests.

0:33:03.782 --> 0:33:06.862
<v Speaker 1>Everyone went nuts. The color of the hair was wrong,

0:33:07.142 --> 0:33:11.062
<v Speaker 1>the burken bag that she was carrying was the clothes

0:33:11.142 --> 0:33:13.502
<v Speaker 1>she was wearing. And since then they've started filming on

0:33:13.542 --> 0:33:17.382
<v Speaker 1>the streets of New York and people have just ripped

0:33:17.382 --> 0:33:21.622
<v Speaker 1>into the actress for not looking right. Karen Beusset, Kennedy's

0:33:21.622 --> 0:33:24.102
<v Speaker 1>original hairstylist, a guy called Brad Johns who's retired now.

0:33:24.102 --> 0:33:26.822
<v Speaker 1>He came out and said, the hair is completely wrong. Like,

0:33:26.862 --> 0:33:30.422
<v Speaker 1>this is a woman who is there's a cult around her,

0:33:30.462 --> 0:33:32.502
<v Speaker 1>and I would say I'm part of that.

0:33:32.502 --> 0:33:35.262
<v Speaker 2>The cult is only about what she looks like. Nobody

0:33:35.382 --> 0:33:38.342
<v Speaker 2>hardly ever talks about what she was like. You know,

0:33:38.462 --> 0:33:42.022
<v Speaker 2>there's a little bit out there about yees new bit neurotic,

0:33:42.102 --> 0:33:44.461
<v Speaker 2>maybe there was some you know, like people have speculated

0:33:44.502 --> 0:33:47.902
<v Speaker 2>and said lots of uncharitable things, But it's what she

0:33:48.102 --> 0:33:51.102
<v Speaker 2>looks like that everybody's particularly obsessed with. So if the

0:33:51.222 --> 0:33:54.022
<v Speaker 2>hair color, and it's a very particular rich girl blonde

0:33:54.142 --> 0:33:58.342
<v Speaker 2>right of the time, is half a shade wrong, it's

0:33:58.382 --> 0:33:58.982
<v Speaker 2>a big deal.

0:33:59.342 --> 0:34:02.502
<v Speaker 1>People feel insulted. People are like, you have all this

0:34:02.622 --> 0:34:06.422
<v Speaker 1>reference material, So much of what we know about her

0:34:06.742 --> 0:34:08.102
<v Speaker 1>is coded from photos.

0:34:08.262 --> 0:34:09.542
<v Speaker 2>As you said, they all paparatta.

0:34:10.062 --> 0:34:12.982
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and some of those outfits still exist, and you know,

0:34:13.182 --> 0:34:15.542
<v Speaker 1>various people own them, they've bet some of them being auctioned.

0:34:15.822 --> 0:34:18.301
<v Speaker 1>So Ryan Murphy had to address the backlash because it

0:34:18.342 --> 0:34:20.502
<v Speaker 1>was really full on a lot of my group chats

0:34:20.502 --> 0:34:23.781
<v Speaker 1>with people who are also obsessed with her have lit up.

0:34:23.822 --> 0:34:26.421
<v Speaker 1>I'm in a subreddit called John and Carolyn, who has

0:34:26.701 --> 0:34:30.661
<v Speaker 1>absolutely gone off. I was in it beforehand, just anyway,

0:34:30.781 --> 0:34:33.181
<v Speaker 1>I followed quite a few Instagram accounts. He came out

0:34:33.221 --> 0:34:35.142
<v Speaker 1>and said he was clearly quite shocked about all of this,

0:34:35.221 --> 0:34:38.022
<v Speaker 1>Ryan Murphy, and he said, Carolyn Bassett is clearly a

0:34:38.062 --> 0:34:40.982
<v Speaker 1>religious figure, and it's a religion of her own. When

0:34:41.102 --> 0:34:43.901
<v Speaker 1>narrating the story of an unknown individual who falls in

0:34:43.902 --> 0:34:45.821
<v Speaker 1>love with the most famous man in the world and

0:34:45.862 --> 0:34:48.781
<v Speaker 1>suddenly she can't leave her house, she was constantly photographed

0:34:48.781 --> 0:34:52.582
<v Speaker 1>being insulted by the paparazzi. They're doing to our Caroline

0:34:52.661 --> 0:34:55.382
<v Speaker 1>what they did to the real life Caroline. It is

0:34:55.502 --> 0:34:56.582
<v Speaker 1>unjust cool.

0:34:56.982 --> 0:34:57.822
<v Speaker 2>That's so true.

0:34:58.181 --> 0:35:00.742
<v Speaker 3>This casting thing though, exactly what happened with the Crown.

0:35:00.902 --> 0:35:04.701
<v Speaker 3>Remember they cast Diana ELIZABETHA Becky, Yeah, and they got

0:35:04.741 --> 0:35:05.942
<v Speaker 3>really mad because they went not.

0:35:06.982 --> 0:35:07.701
<v Speaker 2>Been good for this.

0:35:08.022 --> 0:35:11.182
<v Speaker 1>She would have a little bit too old, though, Elizabeth Tibiki.

0:35:11.261 --> 0:35:13.261
<v Speaker 1>But you're right. I mean there are a number of actresses,

0:35:13.261 --> 0:35:15.622
<v Speaker 1>which of course everyone's always been talking who would you

0:35:15.701 --> 0:35:18.022
<v Speaker 1>cast if you were going to cast the actor that

0:35:18.062 --> 0:35:20.102
<v Speaker 1>they've chosen. I'm not familiar with her, I don't know

0:35:20.142 --> 0:35:22.941
<v Speaker 1>her work. Obviously, Ryan Murphy's pretty good at what he does.

0:35:23.261 --> 0:35:25.142
<v Speaker 1>I don't think you would have cast about actress, but

0:35:25.542 --> 0:35:28.342
<v Speaker 1>your right hole. It's so coded in how she looks,

0:35:28.542 --> 0:35:30.821
<v Speaker 1>and people are upset that she doesn't quite look right.

0:35:30.862 --> 0:35:34.142
<v Speaker 1>And then the outfits that she was perhaps wearing on

0:35:34.181 --> 0:35:36.622
<v Speaker 1>the street while they were filming. People are saying, it's

0:35:36.661 --> 0:35:40.822
<v Speaker 1>like Temu Carolyn Bissett Kennedy that she's wearing like cheap

0:35:40.862 --> 0:35:43.622
<v Speaker 1>satin skirt and converse. The thing most people are insulted

0:35:43.622 --> 0:35:46.181
<v Speaker 1>by is that they showed her with like a pleath blazer,

0:35:46.661 --> 0:35:51.822
<v Speaker 1>a black topic chocolate brown, nasty, cheap kind of bias

0:35:51.902 --> 0:35:56.181
<v Speaker 1>cut skirt in satin, and a high top black converse,

0:35:56.542 --> 0:35:59.142
<v Speaker 1>and like I could honestly recite to you every outfit

0:35:59.221 --> 0:36:01.261
<v Speaker 1>she's ever worn. I could identify them. I could, And

0:36:01.342 --> 0:36:02.981
<v Speaker 1>it's like, how can they have got this so wrong?

0:36:02.982 --> 0:36:05.781
<v Speaker 2>There's probably the difference between and maybe what we've seen

0:36:05.822 --> 0:36:08.102
<v Speaker 2>now the test stuff, as you say, a very good

0:36:08.142 --> 0:36:10.901
<v Speaker 2>costume department and are not so good costume department, Because

0:36:10.902 --> 0:36:13.022
<v Speaker 2>the thing is is you can wear someone else's clothes

0:36:13.062 --> 0:36:16.062
<v Speaker 2>like I could dresses mea today. Right, But if I

0:36:16.102 --> 0:36:18.701
<v Speaker 2>don't have a deep understanding, and Mia obviously has a

0:36:18.781 --> 0:36:21.381
<v Speaker 2>very specific style that Mia has about her style, I'm

0:36:21.382 --> 0:36:22.821
<v Speaker 2>going to get it wrong. I'm going to get the

0:36:22.942 --> 0:36:25.542
<v Speaker 2>shirt's not going to be quite the right kind of oversize,

0:36:26.102 --> 0:36:28.422
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. There's very specific details, and

0:36:28.502 --> 0:36:33.661
<v Speaker 2>surely the really good costumers of the world understand that deeply. Right.

0:36:34.022 --> 0:36:38.662
<v Speaker 1>He says, there's a ten person wardrobe committee, including people

0:36:38.701 --> 0:36:41.661
<v Speaker 1>who have these Instagram accounts that have been going for

0:36:41.822 --> 0:36:44.261
<v Speaker 1>twenty years. I think because there's a finite number of

0:36:44.302 --> 0:36:47.862
<v Speaker 1>photos with her, because she tragically died so young, everybody

0:36:47.902 --> 0:36:51.542
<v Speaker 1>is so so ingrained with these images, and anything that

0:36:51.582 --> 0:36:55.781
<v Speaker 1>doesn't fit exactly people feel really insulted by. But it's

0:36:55.822 --> 0:36:59.502
<v Speaker 1>interesting because it raises these issues of accuracy and taste,

0:36:59.542 --> 0:37:03.262
<v Speaker 1>but also of ethics, because Jack Schlosberg, who is JFK

0:37:03.422 --> 0:37:06.701
<v Speaker 1>Junior's nephew, the son of his sister, has come out

0:37:06.701 --> 0:37:09.822
<v Speaker 1>and said, this is grotesque what Ryan Murphy's doing. Family

0:37:09.982 --> 0:37:13.821
<v Speaker 1>of JFK Junior wasn't consulted. Presumably Carolen Bessett's family weren't

0:37:13.822 --> 0:37:16.582
<v Speaker 1>consulted either. We hope you're going to donate some money

0:37:16.622 --> 0:37:20.261
<v Speaker 1>to the JFK Junior Memorial Fund or whatever it is.

0:37:20.701 --> 0:37:22.381
<v Speaker 1>And Ron Murphy came out and said, yes, we did

0:37:22.422 --> 0:37:24.982
<v Speaker 1>do that, and he's not trying to upset anyone, but like,

0:37:25.661 --> 0:37:27.301
<v Speaker 1>is it is all a bit dicky. And I say,

0:37:27.302 --> 0:37:29.301
<v Speaker 1>this is someone who has poured over photos of her

0:37:29.342 --> 0:37:31.062
<v Speaker 1>for all these years, and I've been thinking so much

0:37:31.102 --> 0:37:34.542
<v Speaker 1>about her poor mother who lost two daughters in that crash,

0:37:34.741 --> 0:37:37.421
<v Speaker 1>and one of them was a twin, and her twin

0:37:37.502 --> 0:37:41.382
<v Speaker 1>sister is still alive, Lisa Bessett, And yeah, I just

0:37:41.422 --> 0:37:46.382
<v Speaker 1>think about them, like we've fetishized the image of this

0:37:46.502 --> 0:37:50.102
<v Speaker 1>dead woman and she was a person, as you say, Holly. Anyway,

0:37:50.142 --> 0:37:54.261
<v Speaker 1>it's coming out on Netflix, presumably in twenty twenty six.

0:37:55.261 --> 0:37:58.701
<v Speaker 3>Friends Before we Go. Megan Markle has released a rose

0:37:58.982 --> 0:38:02.862
<v Speaker 3>or Azam Vernam likes to call it bitch dsl oh, yeah,

0:38:02.942 --> 0:38:03.741
<v Speaker 3>do we like a rose?

0:38:04.422 --> 0:38:07.261
<v Speaker 2>I love a rose. I have a basic bitch, like

0:38:07.302 --> 0:38:11.102
<v Speaker 2>a very dry rose. I will be drinking Meghan's if

0:38:11.142 --> 0:38:12.461
<v Speaker 2>I can get my sticky little pause.

0:38:12.542 --> 0:38:15.262
<v Speaker 3>I was worried that you would say that, because holy

0:38:15.422 --> 0:38:18.102
<v Speaker 3>the cost of the rose plus a seventy five dollars

0:38:18.102 --> 0:38:20.861
<v Speaker 3>shipping to the regional town of New South Wales where

0:38:20.902 --> 0:38:22.781
<v Speaker 3>you live. Is not a good use of money, and

0:38:22.862 --> 0:38:24.142
<v Speaker 3>Maya and I need to intervene.

0:38:24.302 --> 0:38:25.622
<v Speaker 2>How much is more energy?

0:38:25.741 --> 0:38:27.301
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know because it's coming out on the

0:38:27.342 --> 0:38:29.821
<v Speaker 3>first of July. And you might ask Jesse, why is

0:38:29.862 --> 0:38:32.341
<v Speaker 3>that date significant? Well, let me tell you it would

0:38:32.422 --> 0:38:34.381
<v Speaker 3>be Princess Diana's sixty fourth birth.

0:38:34.942 --> 0:38:38.582
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of capitalizing on the image, I disagree, as that

0:38:38.622 --> 0:38:39.341
<v Speaker 1>was her mother in law.

0:38:39.382 --> 0:38:41.741
<v Speaker 3>Some people are going, you know, it's a significant date,

0:38:41.781 --> 0:38:45.622
<v Speaker 3>and apparently that's when Meghan and Harry first met off,

0:38:45.622 --> 0:38:47.582
<v Speaker 3>first reached out to each other. It's a significant date

0:38:47.622 --> 0:38:50.501
<v Speaker 3>for them and their love story. I think it's just summer.

0:38:51.102 --> 0:38:53.502
<v Speaker 2>Because is a summer thing. You got to wait for

0:38:53.502 --> 0:38:55.942
<v Speaker 2>summer season. The thing is is this is genius on

0:38:55.942 --> 0:38:58.741
<v Speaker 2>Megan's part, because every savvy celebrity knows that if you

0:38:58.781 --> 0:39:01.542
<v Speaker 2>want the female market release of Bloody Rose, Brad and

0:39:01.582 --> 0:39:04.221
<v Speaker 2>Angelina have a Rose. It's been one of the many

0:39:04.221 --> 0:39:04.582
<v Speaker 2>things that.

0:39:04.942 --> 0:39:07.302
<v Speaker 3>One thing they can't resolve in their divorce.

0:39:07.382 --> 0:39:10.221
<v Speaker 2>It's good. It's called miravale. I have drunk much of it.

0:39:10.582 --> 0:39:14.062
<v Speaker 2>Drew barrmol has one, Kylie Minogue has one, Jessica Parker

0:39:14.142 --> 0:39:14.502
<v Speaker 2>has one.

0:39:14.982 --> 0:39:15.862
<v Speaker 1>We have one.

0:39:15.942 --> 0:39:17.181
<v Speaker 3>That's what I was going to say. I think we

0:39:17.181 --> 0:39:17.941
<v Speaker 3>should start a rose.

0:39:18.181 --> 0:39:18.901
<v Speaker 2>Can we call it bitch.

0:39:19.302 --> 0:39:24.022
<v Speaker 1>Anyone's listening and you have a winery or or a

0:39:24.062 --> 0:39:27.741
<v Speaker 1>wine manufacturer, We're interested in making our own. Out loud

0:39:27.741 --> 0:39:31.181
<v Speaker 1>bitch Diesel come at us, Let's.

0:39:30.902 --> 0:39:34.102
<v Speaker 2>Come out massive. Thank you out louders for being with

0:39:34.221 --> 0:39:36.582
<v Speaker 2>us here on our Wednesday show where we have traversed

0:39:37.422 --> 0:39:40.302
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of territory really from water Rose to Brad

0:39:40.342 --> 0:39:43.302
<v Speaker 2>Pitt like I mean really Orcas. It's been a lot

0:39:43.342 --> 0:39:45.861
<v Speaker 2>and that's what we hope you expect from us. Thank

0:39:45.902 --> 0:39:47.701
<v Speaker 2>you to all of you for listening and to our

0:39:47.701 --> 0:39:49.982
<v Speaker 2>team for putting it together. Please remember, if you are

0:39:49.982 --> 0:39:52.622
<v Speaker 2>looking at us on social or of course on YouTube,

0:39:52.741 --> 0:39:55.382
<v Speaker 2>our studio is a styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.

0:39:55.741 --> 0:39:57.661
<v Speaker 2>Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com, dot a you to

0:39:57.661 --> 0:39:59.422
<v Speaker 2>find out more about that. We're going to be back

0:39:59.462 --> 0:40:00.302
<v Speaker 2>in yours tomorrow.

0:40:00.462 --> 0:40:02.462
<v Speaker 3>But if you want something else to listen to, then

0:40:02.502 --> 0:40:06.982
<v Speaker 3>on yesterday's Subscribe episode, Holly and Burnham and I discussed

0:40:07.221 --> 0:40:10.142
<v Speaker 3>last meeting theory, and that's about if you've ever had

0:40:10.142 --> 0:40:12.381
<v Speaker 3>a relationship or a friendship with someone and you've had

0:40:12.382 --> 0:40:14.701
<v Speaker 3>a really monumental last meeting, or you feel like you

0:40:14.781 --> 0:40:16.502
<v Speaker 3>keep running into them. I haven't been.

0:40:16.302 --> 0:40:18.422
<v Speaker 1>Seeing this on social everywhere. You're going to explain it

0:40:18.422 --> 0:40:18.582
<v Speaker 1>to me.

0:40:18.701 --> 0:40:21.342
<v Speaker 3>We're going to explain it. And also, for some reason,

0:40:21.862 --> 0:40:23.781
<v Speaker 3>I'm a real sucker for this, and I have some

0:40:23.862 --> 0:40:27.542
<v Speaker 3>really creepy coincidental stories that I share. Holly is a

0:40:27.542 --> 0:40:30.422
<v Speaker 3>little more skeptical as always. Will pop a link in

0:40:30.462 --> 0:40:31.102
<v Speaker 3>the show notes.

0:40:31.342 --> 0:40:32.981
<v Speaker 1>See you tomorrow, Bye bye.

0:40:34.142 --> 0:40:36.661
<v Speaker 3>Shout out to any Mum and me a subscribers listening.

0:40:36.942 --> 0:40:39.062
<v Speaker 3>If you love the show and you want to support us,

0:40:39.302 --> 0:40:42.102
<v Speaker 3>subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

0:40:42.142 --> 0:40:44.702
<v Speaker 3>to do so. There's a link in the episode description.