1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,221 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:22,502 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:22,542 --> 00:00:25,622 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm 5 00:00:25,662 --> 00:00:27,781 Speaker 2: Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman. 6 00:00:27,542 --> 00:00:28,702 Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:28,742 --> 00:00:31,702 Speaker 2: And here's what's made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the 8 00:00:31,742 --> 00:00:35,262 Speaker 2: twenty fifth of June. He's everywhere you look. He's on 9 00:00:35,302 --> 00:00:38,461 Speaker 2: a supercharged comebat mission. But how do we solve a 10 00:00:38,502 --> 00:00:39,942 Speaker 2: problem like Brad. 11 00:00:39,742 --> 00:00:44,382 Speaker 3: Pitt plus, are you a maximizer or a satisficer? The 12 00:00:44,462 --> 00:00:47,182 Speaker 3: fascinating theory on why women are more likely to end 13 00:00:47,182 --> 00:00:49,582 Speaker 3: marriages and what it has to do with how long 14 00:00:49,822 --> 00:00:51,582 Speaker 3: you take to look at the menu at a restaurant. 15 00:00:51,702 --> 00:00:55,342 Speaker 1: And the woman who is obsessing a certain corner of 16 00:00:55,382 --> 00:00:58,382 Speaker 1: the Internet this week has been dead for twenty five years. 17 00:00:58,862 --> 00:01:02,302 Speaker 1: So why is Carolnbusset Kennedy suddenly everywhere? And why are 18 00:01:02,342 --> 00:01:04,542 Speaker 1: so many people feeling furious about it? 19 00:01:04,862 --> 00:01:08,702 Speaker 2: But first, the President of the United States crashed out 20 00:01:08,702 --> 00:01:12,021 Speaker 2: this morning. That's another term that might also be called 21 00:01:12,422 --> 00:01:13,261 Speaker 2: lost his shit. 22 00:01:13,702 --> 00:01:14,862 Speaker 1: Emotional dysregulation. 23 00:01:15,102 --> 00:01:20,542 Speaker 2: Yes, very emotionally dysregulated in a very reassuring display at 24 00:01:20,582 --> 00:01:23,702 Speaker 2: reporters on the White House lawn on the way to 25 00:01:23,742 --> 00:01:26,502 Speaker 2: the Netherlands for the NATO summit. This is what he 26 00:01:26,622 --> 00:01:30,182 Speaker 2: said about what's unfolding between Iran and Israel, and we 27 00:01:30,342 --> 00:01:34,062 Speaker 2: basically have two countries that have been fighting so long 28 00:01:34,142 --> 00:01:36,862 Speaker 2: and so hard that they don't know what the fuck 29 00:01:36,942 --> 00:01:39,622 Speaker 2: they're doing. You understand that he was upset because twenty 30 00:01:39,662 --> 00:01:42,102 Speaker 2: four hours before he'd told the world that he'd sorted 31 00:01:42,142 --> 00:01:45,142 Speaker 2: that stuff out. Just like that, everyone had listened to him. 32 00:01:45,142 --> 00:01:47,022 Speaker 2: They backed off, they'd gone to their corners. Guess what 33 00:01:47,102 --> 00:01:47,502 Speaker 2: they didn't. 34 00:01:47,582 --> 00:01:50,702 Speaker 3: He's the anti war president, right he is. 35 00:01:50,902 --> 00:01:54,902 Speaker 2: Mia is Trump less worried about escalating hostilities and casualties 36 00:01:54,942 --> 00:01:57,702 Speaker 2: than he is about not getting a certain trophy he's 37 00:01:57,742 --> 00:01:58,382 Speaker 2: desperate for. 38 00:01:58,702 --> 00:02:03,182 Speaker 1: Well, if you're wondering why he's suddenly so fixated on 39 00:02:03,342 --> 00:02:06,662 Speaker 1: peace and why he's branding himself the anti war president, 40 00:02:07,622 --> 00:02:09,541 Speaker 1: you might not know. You might have missed the fact 41 00:02:09,702 --> 00:02:12,982 Speaker 1: that he's been petitioning to win the Nobel Peace Prize. 42 00:02:13,102 --> 00:02:17,222 Speaker 1: Is this real citizens satire? He's actually been nominated five 43 00:02:17,302 --> 00:02:19,702 Speaker 1: times over the last five years. You have to get 44 00:02:19,702 --> 00:02:22,582 Speaker 1: nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not sorrying if 45 00:02:22,582 --> 00:02:25,382 Speaker 1: you can nominate yourself, but various people have nominated him, 46 00:02:25,382 --> 00:02:29,782 Speaker 1: including the Pakistan government this year. He wrote on the 47 00:02:29,902 --> 00:02:33,782 Speaker 1: Truth social platform on Friday Night, which he owns conveniently, 48 00:02:34,102 --> 00:02:36,622 Speaker 1: he says, no, I won't get a Nobel Peace Prize 49 00:02:36,622 --> 00:02:40,142 Speaker 1: no matter what I do, including Russia, Ukraine and Israel 50 00:02:40,181 --> 00:02:42,942 Speaker 1: I ran, whatever those outcomes may be. But the people 51 00:02:43,022 --> 00:02:44,942 Speaker 1: know and that's all that matters to me. 52 00:02:45,142 --> 00:02:46,901 Speaker 2: That's what you say when you really want to win 53 00:02:46,982 --> 00:02:48,462 Speaker 2: something and you're not going to win it, You're like, 54 00:02:48,502 --> 00:02:49,982 Speaker 2: I don't care. I didn't care anyway. 55 00:02:50,142 --> 00:02:50,662 Speaker 3: I didn't want it. 56 00:02:50,662 --> 00:02:53,542 Speaker 2: I didn't even want it. When he really, really really. 57 00:02:53,142 --> 00:02:55,462 Speaker 1: Wants stranger things have happened, he could win a Nobel 58 00:02:55,502 --> 00:02:57,542 Speaker 1: Peace Prize. I mean if this cease fire hold, which 59 00:02:57,662 --> 00:03:00,062 Speaker 1: you know at the time of recording, hopefully it will. 60 00:03:00,302 --> 00:03:03,501 Speaker 3: We're saying a lot of Dick's winging, and what's being lost, 61 00:03:03,542 --> 00:03:06,102 Speaker 3: I think is the loss of civilian life in all 62 00:03:06,142 --> 00:03:08,582 Speaker 3: of this conflict, and I'm not seeing that in you know, 63 00:03:08,622 --> 00:03:12,662 Speaker 3: a lot of the Trump coverage. Civilians are not their government, 64 00:03:12,782 --> 00:03:16,182 Speaker 3: and I think I would like to make space. I 65 00:03:16,181 --> 00:03:18,062 Speaker 3: think a lot of out louders probably feel like this 66 00:03:18,502 --> 00:03:22,422 Speaker 3: for the position of deep grief and distress and an 67 00:03:22,422 --> 00:03:25,142 Speaker 3: acknowledgment of just all the innocent people who have lost 68 00:03:25,181 --> 00:03:27,902 Speaker 3: their lives and continue to every day. And Trump can 69 00:03:27,942 --> 00:03:30,102 Speaker 3: say those words, and he can swear on the lawn 70 00:03:30,222 --> 00:03:32,982 Speaker 3: or whatever, but the reality is these are real human 71 00:03:33,022 --> 00:03:36,342 Speaker 3: beings with real lives, and the scale of the tragedy 72 00:03:36,422 --> 00:03:37,182 Speaker 3: is unimaginable. 73 00:03:47,982 --> 00:03:50,782 Speaker 2: What do we do with a problem like Brad Pitt. 74 00:03:51,222 --> 00:03:54,582 Speaker 2: He's everywhere at the minute, looming like a craggy, middle 75 00:03:54,622 --> 00:03:59,262 Speaker 2: aged Donnis on billboards, pop up ads, on podcasts, photoshoots, 76 00:03:59,462 --> 00:04:02,982 Speaker 2: in my dreams, but not about me. I'm talking about 77 00:04:03,102 --> 00:04:07,022 Speaker 2: Brad Pitt because everyone is. He is on the promotional 78 00:04:07,062 --> 00:04:11,022 Speaker 2: tour for his first like mega mega movie in decades. 79 00:04:11,102 --> 00:04:13,302 Speaker 2: Right f one, you would have seen this about It's 80 00:04:13,302 --> 00:04:14,622 Speaker 2: about cars, Jesse, You'd love it. 81 00:04:14,702 --> 00:04:17,101 Speaker 3: I'm really into it now that I'm a Formula one expert. 82 00:04:17,142 --> 00:04:19,782 Speaker 1: I'm also watching Drive to Survive, so I've got skin 83 00:04:19,861 --> 00:04:20,262 Speaker 1: in this game. 84 00:04:20,382 --> 00:04:23,582 Speaker 2: He's also jumping on the very fast bandwagon. It cost 85 00:04:23,662 --> 00:04:26,981 Speaker 2: a sickening three hundred million US dollars to make this film. 86 00:04:27,022 --> 00:04:29,421 Speaker 2: That's a lot of money, and it's directed by the 87 00:04:29,462 --> 00:04:31,382 Speaker 2: same dude, and dude is the word, because these are 88 00:04:31,421 --> 00:04:33,421 Speaker 2: real dude movies. Although I have to say I love 89 00:04:33,541 --> 00:04:35,501 Speaker 2: this one Top grand Maverick, which is the one that 90 00:04:35,821 --> 00:04:39,101 Speaker 2: this guy directed that also cost you know, the GDP 91 00:04:39,222 --> 00:04:41,941 Speaker 2: of a small nation, but it made more than one 92 00:04:41,941 --> 00:04:44,741 Speaker 2: and a half billion dollars at the box office. And 93 00:04:44,782 --> 00:04:47,142 Speaker 2: so that's the kind of pressure that's on a Brad 94 00:04:47,181 --> 00:04:49,782 Speaker 2: Pitt at the moment. It's like, if this movie costs 95 00:04:49,782 --> 00:04:52,061 Speaker 2: this much, you've got to do a tom cruise and 96 00:04:52,101 --> 00:04:54,541 Speaker 2: bring the dollar dollar bills in the door. And that's 97 00:04:54,582 --> 00:04:56,662 Speaker 2: why we're seeing him tap dancing everywhere. 98 00:04:56,741 --> 00:04:56,941 Speaker 4: Right. 99 00:04:57,821 --> 00:05:01,821 Speaker 2: The problem is that this is the first major major 100 00:05:01,861 --> 00:05:06,902 Speaker 2: press tour that Pit's done really since this I'm about 101 00:05:06,902 --> 00:05:09,301 Speaker 2: to read a couple of lines from a court document 102 00:05:09,541 --> 00:05:12,501 Speaker 2: about the incident that is now nine years old between 103 00:05:12,621 --> 00:05:16,541 Speaker 2: him and Angelina Jolie and their children on a private 104 00:05:16,621 --> 00:05:20,022 Speaker 2: jet going from France to la and I also want 105 00:05:20,061 --> 00:05:22,461 Speaker 2: to say that these documents have been read in court. 106 00:05:22,541 --> 00:05:25,262 Speaker 2: He has never explicitly denied this happened. He has made 107 00:05:25,342 --> 00:05:28,301 Speaker 2: comments Pitt through his lawyers that you know, he feels 108 00:05:28,342 --> 00:05:31,501 Speaker 2: like he's been victimized by Jolie and their divorce proceedings, 109 00:05:31,501 --> 00:05:34,621 Speaker 2: but he has never denied this account explicitly. Pitt pulled 110 00:05:34,662 --> 00:05:37,141 Speaker 2: her into the bathroom and began yelling at her. He 111 00:05:37,181 --> 00:05:39,142 Speaker 2: grabbed her by the head and shook her, and then 112 00:05:39,181 --> 00:05:41,342 Speaker 2: he grabbed her by the shoulders and pushed her into 113 00:05:41,381 --> 00:05:44,301 Speaker 2: the bathroom wall. One of the children, who were between 114 00:05:44,342 --> 00:05:47,421 Speaker 2: eight and fifteen at the time, verbally defended Jolie, the 115 00:05:47,462 --> 00:05:50,621 Speaker 2: countersuit says, and Pitt lashed out. He lunged at his 116 00:05:50,662 --> 00:05:53,422 Speaker 2: own child, and Jolly grabbed him from behind to stop him. 117 00:05:53,741 --> 00:05:56,421 Speaker 2: To get Jolie off his back, Pit threw himself backwards 118 00:05:56,421 --> 00:05:59,981 Speaker 2: and into the airplane's seat, injuring Jolie's back and elbow. 119 00:06:00,462 --> 00:06:03,381 Speaker 2: The children rushed in and all bravely tried to protect 120 00:06:03,421 --> 00:06:06,342 Speaker 2: each other. Before it was over, Pitt choked one of 121 00:06:06,381 --> 00:06:10,902 Speaker 2: the children and struck another in the face. Now, Pitt 122 00:06:10,902 --> 00:06:14,181 Speaker 2: disputes a lot of Jolie's account, and ever since what 123 00:06:14,381 --> 00:06:17,381 Speaker 2: happened in their divorce, their relationship been going on a 124 00:06:17,381 --> 00:06:20,702 Speaker 2: long time. They had six kids together, and she has 125 00:06:20,702 --> 00:06:23,702 Speaker 2: said since that there was other violence in that relationship. 126 00:06:23,702 --> 00:06:25,462 Speaker 1: Can I ask you a question about that, because some 127 00:06:25,501 --> 00:06:28,222 Speaker 1: people say when this comes up, which in invariably does, 128 00:06:28,262 --> 00:06:32,541 Speaker 1: particularly at the moment, they'll say this never went to court, 129 00:06:33,181 --> 00:06:33,782 Speaker 1: which is true. 130 00:06:33,861 --> 00:06:37,581 Speaker 2: It's quite weedy because the FBI got involved because originally 131 00:06:37,621 --> 00:06:40,101 Speaker 2: these were all part of really redacted court documents that 132 00:06:40,101 --> 00:06:43,022 Speaker 2: protected the identity of everybody in it, and then that 133 00:06:43,061 --> 00:06:46,022 Speaker 2: got leaked and Jolie's thought that there was something dodgy 134 00:06:46,022 --> 00:06:48,261 Speaker 2: about that, so then she was bringing a case against 135 00:06:48,262 --> 00:06:51,581 Speaker 2: the FBI. It's very like muddy Waters got it. But 136 00:06:51,861 --> 00:06:55,741 Speaker 2: what we do know is that Pitt has never explicitly 137 00:06:55,782 --> 00:06:59,021 Speaker 2: denied that right that particular incident he said I won't 138 00:06:59,061 --> 00:07:01,462 Speaker 2: take through his lawyers. He's never really spoken much about 139 00:07:01,501 --> 00:07:02,902 Speaker 2: it at all. To be fair, it's not like he 140 00:07:03,262 --> 00:07:06,421 Speaker 2: has been trashing her publicly. The leaks are enormous. 141 00:07:06,621 --> 00:07:10,302 Speaker 1: His people have been really smearing her over a really 142 00:07:10,342 --> 00:07:12,382 Speaker 1: long period of time. I think that's pretty well known. 143 00:07:12,502 --> 00:07:14,982 Speaker 2: Yeah, but she's been I mean, like they're both. I'm 144 00:07:14,982 --> 00:07:17,021 Speaker 2: not defending him, but I'm just saying that this is 145 00:07:17,022 --> 00:07:19,222 Speaker 2: a very for nine years now, this has been a 146 00:07:19,422 --> 00:07:23,662 Speaker 2: very very messy situation. Yeah, he is not saying that 147 00:07:23,702 --> 00:07:27,942 Speaker 2: didn't happen. So let's assume, as the courts do, that 148 00:07:27,941 --> 00:07:30,702 Speaker 2: that did happen, right, The point I'm trying to make 149 00:07:31,342 --> 00:07:33,422 Speaker 2: is that whatever all that he said, she said, is 150 00:07:34,462 --> 00:07:36,982 Speaker 2: he did that? Yeah, and so what does that mean? Well, 151 00:07:36,982 --> 00:07:37,462 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. 152 00:07:37,502 --> 00:07:40,502 Speaker 1: It certainly seems that way. And it's also worth admitting 153 00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:44,821 Speaker 1: to the public record that of their six children, I 154 00:07:44,862 --> 00:07:46,902 Speaker 1: think four of them have legally changed their name because 155 00:07:46,902 --> 00:07:49,942 Speaker 1: they're over eighteen to drop the pit from their names, 156 00:07:50,422 --> 00:07:53,222 Speaker 1: and none of them have been seen publicly with him 157 00:07:53,462 --> 00:07:53,902 Speaker 1: since then. 158 00:07:54,302 --> 00:07:58,222 Speaker 2: He's estranged from all his kids, so he's not denying that. 159 00:07:58,502 --> 00:08:00,742 Speaker 2: So how do you handle that? Back to the problem 160 00:08:00,742 --> 00:08:02,662 Speaker 2: of Brad Pitt, how do you handle the fact that 161 00:08:02,702 --> 00:08:05,662 Speaker 2: one of the most famous and high profile love affairs 162 00:08:05,702 --> 00:08:10,141 Speaker 2: marriages families of all time fell apart under a huge 163 00:08:10,222 --> 00:08:12,742 Speaker 2: dark cloud of abuse allegations. How do you handle that 164 00:08:12,782 --> 00:08:15,141 Speaker 2: and go on to be mister three hundred million dollar movie. 165 00:08:15,182 --> 00:08:18,302 Speaker 2: That is the question here right in a way what 166 00:08:18,422 --> 00:08:22,022 Speaker 2: Pitt has decided to do. It's clear I'm not necessarily 167 00:08:22,022 --> 00:08:24,462 Speaker 2: being cynical in this is play. That's not who I 168 00:08:24,502 --> 00:08:28,462 Speaker 2: am anymore. Most notably, he's talked about getting sober. There 169 00:08:28,502 --> 00:08:30,422 Speaker 2: was a lot of alcohol in that. In the account 170 00:08:30,422 --> 00:08:33,862 Speaker 2: of that about him drinking heavily, he says he's got sober, 171 00:08:33,982 --> 00:08:36,742 Speaker 2: he's in a AA And this week he went on 172 00:08:36,982 --> 00:08:40,982 Speaker 2: Dak Shepherd's Armchair Expert podcast, where he spoke to Dax 173 00:08:41,022 --> 00:08:43,622 Speaker 2: and Monica about very little. Actually the words wife would 174 00:08:43,622 --> 00:08:46,222 Speaker 2: never mention. The children were never mentioned, and normally Dax 175 00:08:46,382 --> 00:08:49,582 Speaker 2: talks a lot about kids because he's a very much 176 00:08:49,622 --> 00:08:52,062 Speaker 2: a dad, dad guy. None of that was mentioned. They 177 00:08:52,142 --> 00:08:55,382 Speaker 2: talked a lot about cars, but he did reveal Dak 178 00:08:55,462 --> 00:08:58,342 Speaker 2: Shepherd that he and Brad are in the same men's 179 00:08:58,462 --> 00:09:01,622 Speaker 2: AA group in Hollywood. And this is what Brad said 180 00:09:01,742 --> 00:09:04,342 Speaker 2: about Dak's reaching out to him to invite him to 181 00:09:04,422 --> 00:09:04,982 Speaker 2: their circle. 182 00:09:05,342 --> 00:09:08,422 Speaker 4: You know, I was in pretty it's pretty much on 183 00:09:08,462 --> 00:09:11,542 Speaker 4: my back, yeah, you know, on my knees, and I 184 00:09:11,662 --> 00:09:14,542 Speaker 4: was really open to I was trying anything and everyone, anything, 185 00:09:14,782 --> 00:09:19,022 Speaker 4: anyone throughout me. It was a particular difficult time. I 186 00:09:19,102 --> 00:09:22,502 Speaker 4: needed rebooting. I needed to wake the fuck up in 187 00:09:22,582 --> 00:09:25,862 Speaker 4: some areas. And it just meant a lot to me. 188 00:09:26,262 --> 00:09:29,382 Speaker 2: So the Hollywood narrative is clear, even without spelling it out. 189 00:09:29,822 --> 00:09:32,862 Speaker 2: I fucked up. I sorted my shit out. I'm trying 190 00:09:32,862 --> 00:09:35,622 Speaker 2: to be a better man. Let's move on. What do 191 00:09:35,662 --> 00:09:36,182 Speaker 2: we make of it? 192 00:09:37,142 --> 00:09:40,222 Speaker 3: I struggle with that narrative and with men talking about 193 00:09:40,422 --> 00:09:45,502 Speaker 3: AA and addiction recovery as this personal triumph without any 194 00:09:45,542 --> 00:09:49,902 Speaker 3: acknowledgment of what lays in their wake, whether that is 195 00:09:50,782 --> 00:09:54,502 Speaker 3: children and women that are hurt, which often are, and 196 00:09:54,582 --> 00:09:58,142 Speaker 3: so it just becomes this really one note narrative. You know, 197 00:09:58,182 --> 00:10:00,822 Speaker 3: there's a quote in that interview where he says, when 198 00:10:00,822 --> 00:10:03,422 Speaker 3: I've stepped in shit, I'm pretty good at taking responsibility 199 00:10:03,462 --> 00:10:07,662 Speaker 3: for it. And it's basically like I'm stubborn, but I 200 00:10:07,782 --> 00:10:10,102 Speaker 3: own my failures and blah blah bla, And it comes 201 00:10:10,102 --> 00:10:13,342 Speaker 3: off like Brad Pitt deserves a round of applause, right, 202 00:10:13,902 --> 00:10:15,702 Speaker 3: And I think that there's a clue in what you 203 00:10:15,742 --> 00:10:19,502 Speaker 3: were saying, Holly about sort of the pr machine around 204 00:10:19,502 --> 00:10:22,142 Speaker 3: Brad Pitt, which is the three hundred million dollars when 205 00:10:22,182 --> 00:10:27,262 Speaker 3: three hundred million dollars hinges on us all not forgiving, 206 00:10:27,782 --> 00:10:32,142 Speaker 3: but putting aside the allegations against Brad Pitt, that machine 207 00:10:32,222 --> 00:10:34,422 Speaker 3: is going to work really, really hard because he's not 208 00:10:34,502 --> 00:10:38,022 Speaker 3: only an actor, but he's a producer. And interestingly, he 209 00:10:38,102 --> 00:10:41,502 Speaker 3: was a producer on adolescence and that was quiet. That 210 00:10:41,622 --> 00:10:42,622 Speaker 3: was only like a little. 211 00:10:42,702 --> 00:10:44,822 Speaker 2: He produces lots, he produces. 212 00:10:44,542 --> 00:10:47,022 Speaker 3: Lots, but I think that he's taken in those instances, 213 00:10:47,062 --> 00:10:48,982 Speaker 3: he's taken a bit of a backseat and let the 214 00:10:49,022 --> 00:10:49,822 Speaker 3: projects speak for you. 215 00:10:49,902 --> 00:10:51,462 Speaker 2: You can't do that when you're the star, and you 216 00:10:51,502 --> 00:10:52,102 Speaker 2: can't do it. 217 00:10:52,742 --> 00:10:56,062 Speaker 3: So you are not going to risk that film bombing 218 00:10:56,502 --> 00:10:58,942 Speaker 3: because people go, I can't look at that man for 219 00:10:59,062 --> 00:11:03,702 Speaker 3: two hours or whatever. And so I'm finding the stylist 220 00:11:03,742 --> 00:11:05,982 Speaker 3: information really interesting. Maya, can you explain to me the 221 00:11:06,182 --> 00:11:09,062 Speaker 3: stylist kind of analysis that's coming out? 222 00:11:09,182 --> 00:11:11,622 Speaker 1: So it's interesting. When you think about Brad Pitt, you 223 00:11:11,622 --> 00:11:15,582 Speaker 1: would think of a kind of a scruffy you know, 224 00:11:15,982 --> 00:11:18,382 Speaker 1: he's a very good looking but not a fashion plate. 225 00:11:18,582 --> 00:11:22,462 Speaker 1: He's almost counterprogrammed his good looks. He came up as 226 00:11:22,502 --> 00:11:24,782 Speaker 1: this heart throb, and he's always worked against that by 227 00:11:25,742 --> 00:11:28,902 Speaker 1: really not paying much attention to his clothes or publicly. 228 00:11:28,982 --> 00:11:33,062 Speaker 1: Although in an interview when he was still married to Angelina, 229 00:11:33,262 --> 00:11:36,422 Speaker 1: she gave a comment to a reporter who was asking 230 00:11:36,422 --> 00:11:38,422 Speaker 1: her about getting ready in all the kids and everything, 231 00:11:38,502 --> 00:11:40,822 Speaker 1: and she made a comment which was really interesting. She said, 232 00:11:41,342 --> 00:11:44,782 Speaker 1: Brad always takes longer to get ready than me. And 233 00:11:44,862 --> 00:11:48,262 Speaker 1: I've thought about that a lot since it became known 234 00:11:48,542 --> 00:11:52,022 Speaker 1: in the last few months that for this whole rehabilitation 235 00:11:52,142 --> 00:11:56,982 Speaker 1: press tour, he's hired Timothy Chalome's stylist, and that's taking 236 00:11:57,022 --> 00:11:59,342 Speaker 1: a big swing. And if you've seen some of the shots, 237 00:11:59,942 --> 00:12:02,062 Speaker 1: the guy's what sixty one, I think he's just turned 238 00:12:02,102 --> 00:12:06,662 Speaker 1: sixty one. He's dressing in a way that is very 239 00:12:07,222 --> 00:12:11,102 Speaker 1: celebrity well main character, main fashion character. 240 00:12:11,302 --> 00:12:13,982 Speaker 3: The tied eye number, which was like a tied eyed 241 00:12:14,062 --> 00:12:16,902 Speaker 3: T shirt with like a tight eye pant, and then 242 00:12:16,982 --> 00:12:19,262 Speaker 3: like the blue velvet jacket. It's not what we know, 243 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:19,982 Speaker 3: Brad Pitt. 244 00:12:20,222 --> 00:12:23,222 Speaker 1: It's not. And if you were looking at this cynically 245 00:12:23,702 --> 00:12:27,582 Speaker 1: or perhaps pragmatically, you would say, how do you draw 246 00:12:27,622 --> 00:12:30,702 Speaker 1: attention away from all of this? You have a beautiful girlfriend. 247 00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:33,062 Speaker 1: He's got a girlfriend who's been with for quite some 248 00:12:33,222 --> 00:12:36,582 Speaker 1: time and names Ines de Ramon. She is a sales 249 00:12:36,662 --> 00:12:39,742 Speaker 1: associate for a high and jewelry company. She looks quite 250 00:12:39,742 --> 00:12:43,542 Speaker 1: a lot like Ama Clooney actually, and they've been seen 251 00:12:43,582 --> 00:12:46,262 Speaker 1: out and about together. They went public about a year ago. 252 00:12:46,822 --> 00:12:49,582 Speaker 1: He's outside a lot, so they're being photographed together a lot. 253 00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:52,862 Speaker 1: He's drawing a lot of attention with his clothes. There's 254 00:12:52,902 --> 00:12:57,182 Speaker 1: a lot for people to be distracted by yeah, and 255 00:12:57,222 --> 00:12:58,502 Speaker 1: I think that's very strategic. 256 00:12:59,022 --> 00:13:03,342 Speaker 2: It's so interesting because like a lot of gen X women, 257 00:13:03,502 --> 00:13:06,222 Speaker 2: like Brad Pitt is an icon, Like here's an absolute 258 00:13:06,422 --> 00:13:08,982 Speaker 2: icon to me. You know, Felmer and Luise. That made 259 00:13:08,982 --> 00:13:12,182 Speaker 2: a very big impression at a very impressionable age, and 260 00:13:12,222 --> 00:13:14,222 Speaker 2: then you think about the movies that he's been in, 261 00:13:14,502 --> 00:13:18,382 Speaker 2: you think about that career. True cancelation, in a way 262 00:13:18,542 --> 00:13:21,302 Speaker 2: is when you can, as you said before, Jesse, you 263 00:13:21,342 --> 00:13:25,422 Speaker 2: can no longer look at that person without thinking about 264 00:13:25,462 --> 00:13:27,982 Speaker 2: a lot of very disturbing shit. That is certainly the 265 00:13:27,982 --> 00:13:29,822 Speaker 2: way I feel about Johnny Depp these days. I used 266 00:13:29,862 --> 00:13:31,582 Speaker 2: to be a big Johnny Depp fan once upon a time. 267 00:13:32,182 --> 00:13:37,022 Speaker 2: I can't. I just can't watch him now being Jack Sparrow, 268 00:13:37,222 --> 00:13:40,222 Speaker 2: being anything. Everything about him is it now and I 269 00:13:40,262 --> 00:13:43,822 Speaker 2: can't look at him. Brad Pitt is not quite Johnny 270 00:13:43,822 --> 00:13:46,622 Speaker 2: Depp character yet. He's not guzzling red wine for breakfast 271 00:13:46,622 --> 00:13:48,862 Speaker 2: and winging about being a victim like he's not that 272 00:13:48,942 --> 00:13:54,862 Speaker 2: he's going on these kind of shows and a very relatable, 273 00:13:55,022 --> 00:13:58,902 Speaker 2: I think, repentant, although he doesn't spell out his like 274 00:13:58,942 --> 00:14:00,662 Speaker 2: I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that. 275 00:14:00,702 --> 00:14:03,422 Speaker 2: The whole vibe about AA. It's about taking responsibility for 276 00:14:03,422 --> 00:14:07,462 Speaker 2: your fuck ups. He's taking a very repentant thing. But 277 00:14:07,582 --> 00:14:09,381 Speaker 2: then I like to play a little game in my head, 278 00:14:09,382 --> 00:14:11,942 Speaker 2: which I know is simplistic, but it's called let's imagine 279 00:14:11,942 --> 00:14:15,822 Speaker 2: Brad Pitt was a woman, and let's imagine that there 280 00:14:15,902 --> 00:14:18,662 Speaker 2: was a very high profile actress who many moons ago 281 00:14:18,742 --> 00:14:22,782 Speaker 2: publicly cheated on her much beloved famous husband, went off 282 00:14:22,862 --> 00:14:27,182 Speaker 2: and built a family with somebody else. Obviously, the physical 283 00:14:27,222 --> 00:14:29,662 Speaker 2: abuse thing is hard to gender flip, but let's imagine 284 00:14:29,662 --> 00:14:33,502 Speaker 2: that that marriage fell apart in acrimonious, drawn out things, 285 00:14:33,542 --> 00:14:36,502 Speaker 2: and then she was now estranged from her six children 286 00:14:36,942 --> 00:14:38,902 Speaker 2: that she'd had in that marriage. Is she getting offered 287 00:14:38,902 --> 00:14:43,262 Speaker 2: three hundred million dollar movies? It's laughable, It's not even it's. 288 00:14:43,142 --> 00:14:46,782 Speaker 3: Not just estranged. Remember when I think it was his 289 00:14:47,022 --> 00:14:50,782 Speaker 3: eldest child posted on Instagram on Father's Day basically being like, 290 00:14:50,862 --> 00:14:54,062 Speaker 3: my dad is an asshole. Like he just essentially just 291 00:14:54,302 --> 00:14:57,182 Speaker 3: sprayed him on social media. So you can imagine how 292 00:14:57,182 --> 00:14:59,462 Speaker 3: those kids kind of feel about him. 293 00:14:59,782 --> 00:15:01,622 Speaker 1: You know this sense, I've got it of it. Jesse 294 00:15:02,062 --> 00:15:04,302 Speaker 1: is like, you know, Michelle Obama's when they go low, 295 00:15:04,382 --> 00:15:08,462 Speaker 1: we go hi when they split. In custody, Brad got 296 00:15:08,502 --> 00:15:13,342 Speaker 1: Hollywood all the reasons that you said, Wow, he's a producer, 297 00:15:13,702 --> 00:15:19,542 Speaker 1: his box office, he's clooney, here's the power in that 298 00:15:19,662 --> 00:15:22,462 Speaker 1: he was always the power and together they were amazing 299 00:15:22,622 --> 00:15:25,822 Speaker 1: and you know, a huge story. But he got custody 300 00:15:25,862 --> 00:15:30,022 Speaker 1: of Hollywood, and he also got custody essentially of public opinion, 301 00:15:30,062 --> 00:15:31,782 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of people who still have 302 00:15:31,862 --> 00:15:36,502 Speaker 1: not forgiven Angelina Jali for what she did to Jennifer Anniston, 303 00:15:36,582 --> 00:15:39,782 Speaker 1: even though she wasn't married at the time he was. 304 00:15:39,902 --> 00:15:41,982 Speaker 3: And remember he got up since this happened, and we 305 00:15:42,022 --> 00:15:45,622 Speaker 3: didn't know yet about these allegations, but since that happened, 306 00:15:45,622 --> 00:15:48,302 Speaker 3: he's won an Oscar and he stood on stage and 307 00:15:48,382 --> 00:15:50,062 Speaker 3: he said, I'm going to add this to my Tinder 308 00:15:50,062 --> 00:15:52,462 Speaker 3: profile and then he said, oh, a movie about a 309 00:15:52,502 --> 00:15:55,542 Speaker 3: divorce and this and a that like really hard like 310 00:15:55,622 --> 00:15:58,622 Speaker 3: he made kind of jokes about this kind of stuff. 311 00:15:58,662 --> 00:16:00,582 Speaker 1: And he was well known to have had a team 312 00:16:00,622 --> 00:16:02,982 Speaker 1: of writers when he was on that award circuit. All 313 00:16:03,022 --> 00:16:06,982 Speaker 1: his speeches at every awards ceremony were knockout, which is fine, 314 00:16:06,982 --> 00:16:09,302 Speaker 1: that's all part of campaigning. But it's so interesting that 315 00:16:09,302 --> 00:16:11,422 Speaker 1: he's got this kind of I don't care, you know, 316 00:16:11,582 --> 00:16:13,862 Speaker 1: I just happened to be very good looking and very successful. 317 00:16:14,222 --> 00:16:15,102 Speaker 2: But there's a lot of. 318 00:16:15,102 --> 00:16:16,942 Speaker 1: Paddling that goes under the surface. But back to the 319 00:16:16,982 --> 00:16:21,102 Speaker 1: low and high. I feel like what Angelina Jolie's done 320 00:16:21,342 --> 00:16:25,302 Speaker 1: is that she's chosen the children. So she's the one 321 00:16:25,342 --> 00:16:29,422 Speaker 1: that said, I'm not going to speak the truth. I'm 322 00:16:29,462 --> 00:16:32,262 Speaker 1: not going to tell people what really happened because I 323 00:16:32,302 --> 00:16:34,142 Speaker 1: don't want to distress the children and I want to 324 00:16:34,182 --> 00:16:37,622 Speaker 1: protect the children. And she's suffered for that and he hasn't. 325 00:16:38,022 --> 00:16:39,982 Speaker 3: Before we move on, can we please talk about this 326 00:16:40,022 --> 00:16:42,942 Speaker 3: Simone Ashley story, because I keep saying the headlines everywhere 327 00:16:43,382 --> 00:16:45,862 Speaker 3: that she has been doing so much press for this 328 00:16:46,022 --> 00:16:49,102 Speaker 3: F one movie. We should say Simone Ashley, she was 329 00:16:49,142 --> 00:16:51,502 Speaker 3: in Bridgeton, she was in sex Education. She's really on 330 00:16:51,542 --> 00:16:53,422 Speaker 3: the rise, but this F one movie was meant to 331 00:16:53,462 --> 00:16:57,582 Speaker 3: be like her big break. And she provided all these 332 00:16:57,982 --> 00:17:00,662 Speaker 3: comments to the media. She'd an interview with Variety where 333 00:17:00,662 --> 00:17:03,662 Speaker 3: she was like, it's so exciting to be cast in 334 00:17:03,702 --> 00:17:04,302 Speaker 3: this movie. 335 00:17:04,422 --> 00:17:06,742 Speaker 1: That's a big break for her. She's very much a 336 00:17:06,782 --> 00:17:09,381 Speaker 1: rising star. Was she the love interest or a love interest? 337 00:17:09,702 --> 00:17:11,421 Speaker 3: I don't even know Mayor, and you know why, I 338 00:17:11,422 --> 00:17:15,182 Speaker 3: don't know, because she has been completely cut from the film. 339 00:17:15,381 --> 00:17:17,542 Speaker 3: People went watched the film after watching her doing all 340 00:17:17,542 --> 00:17:20,701 Speaker 3: of this promotional stuff, and she's in the background in 341 00:17:20,742 --> 00:17:22,821 Speaker 3: like a couple of shots or whatever, doesn't have any 342 00:17:22,861 --> 00:17:26,061 Speaker 3: speaking roles. And what people are really annoyed about is 343 00:17:26,101 --> 00:17:29,502 Speaker 3: that they're going, this is a movie predominantly about men, 344 00:17:29,621 --> 00:17:32,141 Speaker 3: right like It's f one is very much about men 345 00:17:32,182 --> 00:17:34,022 Speaker 3: are in the driver's seat, men are behind the scenes. 346 00:17:34,061 --> 00:17:37,022 Speaker 3: A lot of women watch it, but what the director 347 00:17:37,182 --> 00:17:40,942 Speaker 3: appeared to do was kind of simone. Ashley did an 348 00:17:40,982 --> 00:17:44,621 Speaker 3: exclusive interview with Variety about the film about being cast 349 00:17:44,661 --> 00:17:47,101 Speaker 3: in the film in July last year, and then speaking 350 00:17:47,141 --> 00:17:49,462 Speaker 3: with Glamour, she was talking about the director and she said, 351 00:17:49,462 --> 00:17:51,421 Speaker 3: he was so open to hearing my ideas about the 352 00:17:51,502 --> 00:17:53,341 Speaker 3: character and what it means to be a female character 353 00:17:53,381 --> 00:17:55,861 Speaker 3: within a story like this. I love seeing more women 354 00:17:55,901 --> 00:17:58,461 Speaker 3: in the driver's seat. And then she's been cut. 355 00:17:59,022 --> 00:18:02,261 Speaker 1: The optics of that are terrible. Jesse, did I not 356 00:18:02,302 --> 00:18:05,141 Speaker 1: see her on the red carpet for the premere and then. 357 00:18:05,061 --> 00:18:07,221 Speaker 3: She turned up on a red carpet recently, which I 358 00:18:07,262 --> 00:18:08,222 Speaker 3: don't fully understand. 359 00:18:08,381 --> 00:18:08,982 Speaker 1: The ball of move. 360 00:18:09,101 --> 00:18:10,902 Speaker 3: It's a ball move because by that point I think 361 00:18:10,901 --> 00:18:13,022 Speaker 3: she knew she wasn't in it. I didn't know this 362 00:18:13,182 --> 00:18:15,461 Speaker 3: was even a thing. I've heard about actors who turn 363 00:18:15,542 --> 00:18:17,061 Speaker 3: up to the premiere watch it and they're like, oh, 364 00:18:17,061 --> 00:18:18,861 Speaker 3: I was cut. I didn't realize that. 365 00:18:19,061 --> 00:18:20,182 Speaker 2: Apparently it's a real thing. 366 00:18:20,422 --> 00:18:23,021 Speaker 1: Yeah. When we went to the Strife screening with the 367 00:18:23,061 --> 00:18:26,182 Speaker 1: cast for season two and for season one, they hadn't 368 00:18:26,222 --> 00:18:29,302 Speaker 1: seen it before, so they didn't know how much they 369 00:18:29,341 --> 00:18:32,181 Speaker 1: were going to be in it, which, yeah, I was 370 00:18:32,222 --> 00:18:35,061 Speaker 1: shocked by that too. But oh, Samie Ashley's extraordinary. If 371 00:18:35,061 --> 00:18:37,262 Speaker 1: you want to see some of her best work season 372 00:18:37,341 --> 00:18:37,702 Speaker 1: two of. 373 00:18:37,661 --> 00:18:40,981 Speaker 3: Bridges and oh, she's amazing in a moment, Are you 374 00:18:41,182 --> 00:18:44,821 Speaker 3: a maximizer or a satisficer? And if you think I'm 375 00:18:44,861 --> 00:18:47,581 Speaker 3: saying that weird, I will explain what that word actually means. 376 00:18:47,861 --> 00:18:55,742 Speaker 3: We'll tell you after the break. Are you a maximizer 377 00:18:56,061 --> 00:18:57,422 Speaker 3: or a satisficer? 378 00:18:57,621 --> 00:19:00,022 Speaker 1: I keep thinking that you're saying satisfier but with a 379 00:19:00,061 --> 00:19:01,421 Speaker 1: speech in perfect can. 380 00:19:01,302 --> 00:19:03,542 Speaker 3: I just explain that this is a word that is 381 00:19:03,581 --> 00:19:07,821 Speaker 3: a mix of two words, which is satisfier and suffice, 382 00:19:08,422 --> 00:19:10,621 Speaker 3: And so that's why there's a wed on the end, 383 00:19:10,661 --> 00:19:12,542 Speaker 3: and I'm saying it's slightly wrong every time. I just 384 00:19:12,542 --> 00:19:13,982 Speaker 3: think we've got to put that on the table. 385 00:19:14,141 --> 00:19:14,302 Speaker 4: Right. 386 00:19:15,101 --> 00:19:17,581 Speaker 2: It's not a real word. It's constructed. Yea. 387 00:19:17,861 --> 00:19:21,261 Speaker 3: I learned these two terms recently while listening to a 388 00:19:21,302 --> 00:19:24,782 Speaker 3: philosopher named Agnes Callard talk about marriage. Have either of 389 00:19:24,821 --> 00:19:26,222 Speaker 3: you ever heard an interview with her or read the 390 00:19:26,222 --> 00:19:26,701 Speaker 3: New York. 391 00:19:26,542 --> 00:19:27,542 Speaker 1: Times profile one time? 392 00:19:27,861 --> 00:19:31,462 Speaker 3: Okay, she's this really interesting philosopher. She's with her husband, 393 00:19:31,542 --> 00:19:35,461 Speaker 3: long term relationship, two kids, very happy, happy relationship. She 394 00:19:35,502 --> 00:19:37,101 Speaker 3: then goes to work and she starts working with this 395 00:19:37,182 --> 00:19:39,902 Speaker 3: new guy. Things are fine, she has an interesting relationship 396 00:19:39,901 --> 00:19:41,422 Speaker 3: with him, and then she goes into work one day 397 00:19:41,462 --> 00:19:43,021 Speaker 3: and this guy is a little bit younger than her 398 00:19:43,742 --> 00:19:45,421 Speaker 3: says I've fallen in love with you. 399 00:19:45,661 --> 00:19:46,262 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 400 00:19:46,302 --> 00:19:47,342 Speaker 2: And she's this in real life. 401 00:19:47,381 --> 00:19:48,981 Speaker 3: This is in real life, this is her real story. 402 00:19:49,341 --> 00:19:51,621 Speaker 3: And she looks at him and goes, oh wow, I 403 00:19:51,621 --> 00:19:54,302 Speaker 3: think I've fallen in love with you too. She walks 404 00:19:54,302 --> 00:19:56,821 Speaker 3: out of that kind of interaction and she goes, what 405 00:19:56,861 --> 00:19:58,941 Speaker 3: am I to do? She's a philosopher, right, So she 406 00:19:58,942 --> 00:20:01,621 Speaker 3: thinks about this stuff a lot, and she goes up 407 00:20:01,661 --> 00:20:03,821 Speaker 3: to her husband a few days later, and goes, I 408 00:20:03,821 --> 00:20:05,302 Speaker 3: think I've fallen in love with someone else, and I 409 00:20:05,302 --> 00:20:07,462 Speaker 3: don't know what to do. So she just tried kind 410 00:20:07,542 --> 00:20:11,782 Speaker 3: of honesty to see what happened. And her husband, also 411 00:20:11,782 --> 00:20:13,061 Speaker 3: a philosopher. 412 00:20:13,702 --> 00:20:17,502 Speaker 1: When shout on a mountain, thought. 413 00:20:17,302 --> 00:20:21,101 Speaker 3: About it and just kind of when that happens in relationships, right, 414 00:20:21,502 --> 00:20:24,581 Speaker 3: So she leads a husband for this new guy, and 415 00:20:24,581 --> 00:20:28,222 Speaker 3: then the interesting point is that she now lives in 416 00:20:28,262 --> 00:20:31,181 Speaker 3: a house with her ex husband, the two kids, and 417 00:20:31,222 --> 00:20:31,661 Speaker 3: the new. 418 00:20:31,542 --> 00:20:34,302 Speaker 1: Guy, and I bet no voice is are raised. There's 419 00:20:34,341 --> 00:20:36,262 Speaker 1: just a lot of thoughtful comments there is there is 420 00:20:36,901 --> 00:20:39,821 Speaker 1: anyway she's still romantically involved with her ex husband. 421 00:20:39,901 --> 00:20:43,742 Speaker 3: No, no, so they yes, yes, She's like, I love him. 422 00:20:44,262 --> 00:20:46,782 Speaker 3: She's got a really interesting view of romantic love where 423 00:20:46,821 --> 00:20:50,981 Speaker 3: she's like it's a way of experiencing and exploring a 424 00:20:51,022 --> 00:20:53,661 Speaker 3: new identity, like I've become a different person with this 425 00:20:53,782 --> 00:20:57,341 Speaker 3: version of And she has this quote that was like, 426 00:20:57,502 --> 00:21:01,061 Speaker 3: thinking is something we do out loud with other people anyway, 427 00:21:01,182 --> 00:21:04,022 Speaker 3: really mayor on a podcast, exactly right, thinking is something 428 00:21:04,061 --> 00:21:06,661 Speaker 3: I do with you bitches. So story is fascinating, and 429 00:21:06,661 --> 00:21:08,621 Speaker 3: I recommend you read the New York Times profile. But 430 00:21:09,302 --> 00:21:13,662 Speaker 3: she'll about when it comes to marriage. She is a maximizer, 431 00:21:13,942 --> 00:21:17,061 Speaker 3: and she thinks that so are most women. A maximizer 432 00:21:17,262 --> 00:21:21,821 Speaker 3: is aspirational. They want the absolute best. They want the marriage, 433 00:21:21,861 --> 00:21:24,302 Speaker 3: the friendship's, the workplace to be perfect. They think there's 434 00:21:24,341 --> 00:21:29,702 Speaker 3: kind of an optimal experience, right. Satisfices, on the other hand, 435 00:21:30,101 --> 00:21:34,061 Speaker 3: are good enough people. They settle, they make decisions quickly, 436 00:21:34,222 --> 00:21:37,061 Speaker 3: they don't get hung up on the best outcome. And 437 00:21:37,101 --> 00:21:39,982 Speaker 3: she says this is why it's often women who end 438 00:21:40,141 --> 00:21:44,141 Speaker 3: marriages because they want more whereas men are and this 439 00:21:44,182 --> 00:21:47,662 Speaker 3: is enormous generalization content with good enough. And she talks 440 00:21:47,661 --> 00:21:49,942 Speaker 3: about this analogy of kind of going to a restaurant 441 00:21:49,942 --> 00:21:53,342 Speaker 3: and the menu, and she says that satisfices will take 442 00:21:53,381 --> 00:21:55,061 Speaker 3: one look at the menu or they'll say, you know 443 00:21:55,101 --> 00:21:57,022 Speaker 3: what you order for me? I don't care, like there 444 00:21:57,061 --> 00:22:01,222 Speaker 3: is no optimal decision whatever, And the maximizer will fret 445 00:22:01,341 --> 00:22:03,302 Speaker 3: they're the one who looks up the menu before you go, 446 00:22:03,422 --> 00:22:05,981 Speaker 3: because they're just like I think I can make the 447 00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:06,742 Speaker 3: best decision. 448 00:22:07,581 --> 00:22:09,861 Speaker 1: They need to optimize everything. 449 00:22:09,581 --> 00:22:13,022 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly right, and get the maximum out of every experience. 450 00:22:13,262 --> 00:22:15,061 Speaker 3: Does this ring true to you? 451 00:22:15,661 --> 00:22:17,181 Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent. 452 00:22:17,302 --> 00:22:18,261 Speaker 3: Are you a maximizer? 453 00:22:18,502 --> 00:22:18,581 Speaker 1: No? 454 00:22:19,141 --> 00:22:21,781 Speaker 2: Really, I'm not a maximizer. When I was looking at 455 00:22:21,782 --> 00:22:24,302 Speaker 2: the definitions here and they said things like a maximizer, 456 00:22:24,341 --> 00:22:27,141 Speaker 2: if they're going to buy a car, a washing machine, 457 00:22:27,182 --> 00:22:31,182 Speaker 2: or lunch, they will do all of the research. They 458 00:22:31,222 --> 00:22:34,382 Speaker 2: will stew over it because they can't bear the idea 459 00:22:34,422 --> 00:22:37,381 Speaker 2: that they might buy the dishwasher and then find out 460 00:22:37,422 --> 00:22:39,501 Speaker 2: tomorrow that there's one that has half a star more 461 00:22:39,581 --> 00:22:42,621 Speaker 2: rating somewhere. Yeah, that is not me. I am not 462 00:22:42,702 --> 00:22:45,302 Speaker 2: even a little bit like that, No way, I reckon. 463 00:22:45,302 --> 00:22:48,421 Speaker 2: There are areas in my life where I'm a maximizer, 464 00:22:48,821 --> 00:22:51,821 Speaker 2: but I'm not an across the board maximizer. So not 465 00:22:51,901 --> 00:22:54,982 Speaker 2: the dishwasher. But yes, lunch, I will walk past twenty 466 00:22:55,061 --> 00:22:58,061 Speaker 2: five sandwich shops to go to the one that has 467 00:22:58,101 --> 00:23:01,101 Speaker 2: the thing that I deem the best. But I don't 468 00:23:01,182 --> 00:23:04,701 Speaker 2: like doing lots of research. I don't like stewing on 469 00:23:04,742 --> 00:23:07,582 Speaker 2: things till they're perfect. So no, I don't think I'm 470 00:23:07,581 --> 00:23:09,381 Speaker 2: a maximizer. How about you, ma'am. 471 00:23:09,821 --> 00:23:14,981 Speaker 1: I'm also a satisfycer, I think because even though inherently 472 00:23:15,061 --> 00:23:19,581 Speaker 1: I think women, as you say, are programmed for self optimization, 473 00:23:19,782 --> 00:23:22,982 Speaker 1: Like there's a reason that self help is so big 474 00:23:23,022 --> 00:23:27,101 Speaker 1: with women it's women who are constantly trying to optimize. 475 00:23:27,542 --> 00:23:32,182 Speaker 1: Improve our appearance, improve our careers, improve our wardrobe, improve 476 00:23:32,222 --> 00:23:36,942 Speaker 1: our relationships, improve our friendships, improve our personalities. I think 477 00:23:37,022 --> 00:23:40,821 Speaker 1: that's because society tells us, and we've internalized this idea 478 00:23:40,821 --> 00:23:44,461 Speaker 1: that we're not good enough and that there's something lacking 479 00:23:44,502 --> 00:23:48,302 Speaker 1: in us and that we need to be better. Whereas 480 00:23:48,341 --> 00:23:52,622 Speaker 1: I think from a male point of view, they are 481 00:23:52,621 --> 00:23:55,422 Speaker 1: told by society that they're pretty great. 482 00:23:55,381 --> 00:23:55,902 Speaker 2: All the time. 483 00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:58,221 Speaker 1: Yeah, no matter what, no matter how they look, no 484 00:23:58,262 --> 00:23:58,902 Speaker 1: matter what they do. 485 00:23:58,982 --> 00:24:00,982 Speaker 2: It's like we're interesting. 486 00:24:01,061 --> 00:24:03,862 Speaker 3: So Callard has written a lot about aspiration, and her 487 00:24:03,982 --> 00:24:07,782 Speaker 3: definition of someone being aspirational is as soon as you 488 00:24:07,861 --> 00:24:10,702 Speaker 3: get to the point of appreciating that thing that you've 489 00:24:10,702 --> 00:24:14,302 Speaker 3: aspired to pretty well, you are sort of itching for 490 00:24:14,341 --> 00:24:14,942 Speaker 3: something new. 491 00:24:15,061 --> 00:24:17,902 Speaker 2: Oh, in areas of my life one hundred percent. See 492 00:24:17,942 --> 00:24:21,261 Speaker 2: I think this unless you are personally programmed. And some 493 00:24:21,302 --> 00:24:25,022 Speaker 2: people definitely are to care equally about all the things 494 00:24:25,022 --> 00:24:27,141 Speaker 2: and they have to have the best of absolutely everything. 495 00:24:27,782 --> 00:24:30,621 Speaker 2: Most of us probably are maximizers in areas we care 496 00:24:30,661 --> 00:24:32,542 Speaker 2: about more than others. So like in work, I reckon 497 00:24:32,621 --> 00:24:35,381 Speaker 2: I'm probably a maximizer. Like I care a lot, I 498 00:24:35,422 --> 00:24:39,381 Speaker 2: work really hard. I'm ambitious, I strive. But if I 499 00:24:39,422 --> 00:24:40,901 Speaker 2: put my hand on my heart, could I say I'm 500 00:24:40,982 --> 00:24:44,341 Speaker 2: like that in all my relationships, my friendships, my family relationships. 501 00:24:44,341 --> 00:24:46,661 Speaker 2: Am I trying every day to be the best friend, 502 00:24:46,702 --> 00:24:50,102 Speaker 2: the best partner, the best lover, the best daughter. No. 503 00:24:50,861 --> 00:24:54,982 Speaker 3: Experts say, Holly, that you're healthy. Experts say that what 504 00:24:55,022 --> 00:24:57,702 Speaker 3: you want is for the high stakes decisions. 505 00:24:58,422 --> 00:25:00,701 Speaker 2: Those maybe. 506 00:25:02,061 --> 00:25:06,942 Speaker 3: The high stakes decisions we're meant to be maximizers. And 507 00:25:06,982 --> 00:25:09,502 Speaker 3: then for the little things that don't really matter. 508 00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:11,501 Speaker 1: Like our relationship. 509 00:25:11,101 --> 00:25:15,262 Speaker 3: Exactly, don't worry about those. And experts says that's really 510 00:25:15,302 --> 00:25:22,502 Speaker 3: important that maximizers do better but are less happy. And 511 00:25:22,542 --> 00:25:25,102 Speaker 3: I found that quite interesting, because I think I'm a maximizer, right. 512 00:25:25,182 --> 00:25:27,381 Speaker 3: I think that not in everything, as you say, Holly, 513 00:25:27,462 --> 00:25:29,621 Speaker 3: but I certainly think that. I get to a point 514 00:25:29,621 --> 00:25:31,462 Speaker 3: and then I start getting itchy again, and then I go, 515 00:25:31,621 --> 00:25:34,421 Speaker 3: all right, I've got to maximize. I need to make 516 00:25:34,542 --> 00:25:39,581 Speaker 3: this situation or this relationship or whatever more optimal, more perfect. 517 00:25:39,901 --> 00:25:42,102 Speaker 3: And I can get quite paralyzed by wanting to make 518 00:25:42,141 --> 00:25:45,061 Speaker 3: the perfect decision. But the irony is that even if 519 00:25:45,101 --> 00:25:47,861 Speaker 3: you make better decisions, and even if you end up 520 00:25:48,262 --> 00:25:50,502 Speaker 3: landing on your feet in a really good job. Because 521 00:25:50,542 --> 00:25:53,381 Speaker 3: you did all of that analysis, you're less happy and 522 00:25:53,422 --> 00:25:58,941 Speaker 3: satisfices are more happy with shitter decisions. So what's the matter? 523 00:25:58,982 --> 00:26:00,342 Speaker 2: Because I think that's true. 524 00:26:00,422 --> 00:26:03,782 Speaker 1: I think that sometimes too much choice, too much opportunity, 525 00:26:04,702 --> 00:26:07,782 Speaker 1: can make you feel unsatisfied if you always think there's 526 00:26:07,782 --> 00:26:10,382 Speaker 1: something better out there, you know, like the person who 527 00:26:10,462 --> 00:26:12,781 Speaker 1: orders and then they look at what everybody else got 528 00:26:12,821 --> 00:26:14,901 Speaker 1: and they're like, oh damn, yours looks better than mine. 529 00:26:14,942 --> 00:26:18,542 Speaker 1: Like I don't hold onto things like I'm just like 530 00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:21,182 Speaker 1: I'm the person who looks at the menu like yeah, 531 00:26:21,222 --> 00:26:21,621 Speaker 1: that'll do. 532 00:26:21,861 --> 00:26:26,222 Speaker 2: But my partner Brenn is definitely such a fice sung Jesus, 533 00:26:26,381 --> 00:26:28,302 Speaker 2: it's been ten minutes and still can't get it right 534 00:26:28,861 --> 00:26:32,341 Speaker 2: in that that classic example of menus and it drives 535 00:26:32,381 --> 00:26:35,461 Speaker 2: me nuts is will sit down to eat and I 536 00:26:35,502 --> 00:26:37,581 Speaker 2: will have looked at it and decided and gone, yeah, 537 00:26:37,621 --> 00:26:39,861 Speaker 2: that sounds great, and then he just goes, yeah that 538 00:26:39,861 --> 00:26:43,022 Speaker 2: sounds good, me too, And it drives me nuts. I'm 539 00:26:43,061 --> 00:26:47,262 Speaker 2: like your own he doesn't care more aspirational. He's also 540 00:26:47,341 --> 00:26:49,181 Speaker 2: gonna like whatever it is, you know what I mean, Like, 541 00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:51,102 Speaker 2: he's not gonna care I see. 542 00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:53,382 Speaker 1: I'm the opposite. So my thing is anyone that takes 543 00:26:53,422 --> 00:26:55,302 Speaker 1: too long to order, and I'm just like, just fucking 544 00:26:55,422 --> 00:26:57,982 Speaker 1: order anything like I didn't it just because I'm married 545 00:26:57,982 --> 00:27:02,502 Speaker 1: to a maximizer who wants everything, has very high standards, 546 00:27:02,502 --> 00:27:05,581 Speaker 1: and wants everything to be the best. 547 00:27:06,022 --> 00:27:08,462 Speaker 3: My mum has a mantra that I try to live 548 00:27:08,502 --> 00:27:10,901 Speaker 3: by because she knows better than anyone, and she says, 549 00:27:11,182 --> 00:27:13,222 Speaker 3: the best decision is the decision you make. 550 00:27:13,341 --> 00:27:17,262 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm like, don't let perfect be the enemy of 551 00:27:17,381 --> 00:27:21,982 Speaker 1: done friends. As the only vegetarian on this podcast, I 552 00:27:22,022 --> 00:27:26,902 Speaker 1: have appointed myself our nature correspondent. Okay, well, I don't 553 00:27:26,901 --> 00:27:28,861 Speaker 1: care that much about nature, but I care about animals 554 00:27:28,901 --> 00:27:29,902 Speaker 1: in particular. 555 00:27:29,581 --> 00:27:31,902 Speaker 3: And I'll have it on the record. I also care 556 00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:33,262 Speaker 3: about animals. Do you. 557 00:27:35,302 --> 00:27:37,181 Speaker 1: Like to stop eating them? Jesse? That's all I'm going 558 00:27:37,262 --> 00:27:39,182 Speaker 1: to say. I have an Orca update. 559 00:27:40,141 --> 00:27:41,502 Speaker 3: Were they wearing salmona's hats? 560 00:27:41,702 --> 00:27:45,662 Speaker 1: Yes? Orca's are killer whales and they have just been 561 00:27:45,782 --> 00:27:50,022 Speaker 1: filmed making tools out of kelp to give each other massages. 562 00:27:50,381 --> 00:27:53,061 Speaker 3: No, they worry me, Holly, really clever. They're too clever. 563 00:27:53,502 --> 00:27:54,542 Speaker 3: They're cleverer than we are. 564 00:27:54,742 --> 00:27:57,502 Speaker 1: What's happened is that Michael Wice, who is a research 565 00:27:57,542 --> 00:28:00,181 Speaker 1: director of the Center for Whale Research in the US, 566 00:28:00,901 --> 00:28:04,342 Speaker 1: says that it is certainly the first case of a cetacean, 567 00:28:04,542 --> 00:28:07,901 Speaker 1: which is a whale, dolphin, or porpoise, finding an object 568 00:28:07,942 --> 00:28:11,182 Speaker 1: in their environment, modifying that object and using it as 569 00:28:11,182 --> 00:28:14,421 Speaker 1: a tool, not just any tool, though, a tool for 570 00:28:14,502 --> 00:28:16,222 Speaker 1: pleasuring other workers. 571 00:28:16,901 --> 00:28:18,221 Speaker 3: They're evolving too far, they are. 572 00:28:18,262 --> 00:28:19,861 Speaker 2: They getting smarter all the time. 573 00:28:19,942 --> 00:28:21,861 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a sexy massage. I think it's 574 00:28:21,901 --> 00:28:26,261 Speaker 1: just a nice massage. But they filmed these interactions with 575 00:28:26,422 --> 00:28:29,701 Speaker 1: drone cameras in the Salish Sea, which is the Canadian 576 00:28:29,742 --> 00:28:32,581 Speaker 1: province of British Columbia in Washington. In case you're wondering 577 00:28:32,621 --> 00:28:35,421 Speaker 1: why they do it, doctor Weese says, it's clearly not 578 00:28:35,621 --> 00:28:38,181 Speaker 1: just a strange, quirky, one off behavior. It is a 579 00:28:38,222 --> 00:28:42,181 Speaker 1: part of their social lives. Yes, no, yes, they're maximizers. 580 00:28:42,822 --> 00:28:43,622 Speaker 2: They're maximizers. 581 00:28:43,661 --> 00:28:46,142 Speaker 3: That's so true. And I've read that they're like highly social. 582 00:28:46,222 --> 00:28:48,982 Speaker 3: So what remember recently it was like killer whales kept 583 00:28:48,982 --> 00:28:52,062 Speaker 3: attacking boats. It was like contagious. And then if they 584 00:28:52,062 --> 00:28:54,342 Speaker 3: want to take over the world, I'd be very concerned, 585 00:28:54,382 --> 00:28:54,582 Speaker 3: I think. 586 00:28:54,622 --> 00:28:57,942 Speaker 1: And they were wearing Salmona's hats, weren't they after the break? 587 00:28:57,942 --> 00:29:00,102 Speaker 1: If you're wondering why a tall, blonde woman who died 588 00:29:00,142 --> 00:29:04,102 Speaker 1: twenty five years ago very tragically is suddenly making people furious, 589 00:29:04,462 --> 00:29:06,982 Speaker 1: her name is Carolmbusset Kennedy, and I will be taking 590 00:29:07,062 --> 00:29:09,142 Speaker 1: questions in a moment one. 591 00:29:09,102 --> 00:29:11,862 Speaker 2: On limit did it out Loud Access? We drop episodes 592 00:29:11,902 --> 00:29:16,462 Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow 593 00:29:16,462 --> 00:29:17,981 Speaker 2: the link at the show notes to get us in 594 00:29:18,022 --> 00:29:21,182 Speaker 2: your ears five days a week, and a huge thank 595 00:29:21,222 --> 00:29:29,221 Speaker 2: you to all our current subscribers. 596 00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:35,942 Speaker 1: Carolyn Bessett Kennedy has long been a fascination among a 597 00:29:35,982 --> 00:29:39,822 Speaker 1: certain group of women, of which I am one. She 598 00:29:39,942 --> 00:29:43,582 Speaker 1: became very famous in the early nineties when she started 599 00:29:43,661 --> 00:29:47,941 Speaker 1: dating and then married JFK. Junior, before they both died 600 00:29:48,022 --> 00:29:51,582 Speaker 1: tragically alongside her sister in a plane crash he was 601 00:29:51,622 --> 00:29:53,661 Speaker 1: piloting a plane there on their way to Martha's vineyard 602 00:29:53,702 --> 00:29:58,622 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine, and ever since then she has 603 00:29:59,102 --> 00:30:03,741 Speaker 1: remained this icon of minimalist style that's really emblematic of 604 00:30:03,782 --> 00:30:07,142 Speaker 1: the nineties. Hold do you remember much of her from 605 00:30:07,182 --> 00:30:07,782 Speaker 1: that time? 606 00:30:08,062 --> 00:30:13,142 Speaker 2: I remember that wedding photo, there's only one photo from 607 00:30:13,182 --> 00:30:16,022 Speaker 2: their wedding, or there's a very iconic one where they're 608 00:30:16,022 --> 00:30:18,302 Speaker 2: coming out of what looks like the most humble little 609 00:30:18,342 --> 00:30:21,942 Speaker 2: weatherboard white chapel ever, and she's wearing just this very 610 00:30:21,982 --> 00:30:25,382 Speaker 2: simple bias cut dress. And the thing is is at 611 00:30:25,382 --> 00:30:28,421 Speaker 2: the time in that certainly in the late eighties, style 612 00:30:28,582 --> 00:30:30,222 Speaker 2: was more and more and more and more more like wet. 613 00:30:30,342 --> 00:30:32,941 Speaker 2: Celebrity wedding dresses were bigger than a house, you know, 614 00:30:33,022 --> 00:30:35,822 Speaker 2: and everything was more like Trump was big, right, so 615 00:30:35,942 --> 00:30:38,942 Speaker 2: gold toilets and all that stuff, and she was the antithesis. 616 00:30:39,062 --> 00:30:43,302 Speaker 2: She was very simple, very beautiful. I was thinking it 617 00:30:43,302 --> 00:30:45,501 Speaker 2: was a bit depressing in a way, how elevated she 618 00:30:45,622 --> 00:30:47,542 Speaker 2: is as an icon because she is like skinny, blonde, 619 00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:49,902 Speaker 2: waspy lady. But then I remember my obsession with Gwyneth, 620 00:30:49,902 --> 00:30:53,941 Speaker 2: and I told myself to sit down, because she's very Gwyneth, right, Yeah, 621 00:30:53,982 --> 00:30:56,782 Speaker 2: like she was very good style before Gwyneth. 622 00:30:56,942 --> 00:31:01,142 Speaker 3: Can I ask why we are hearing so much about 623 00:31:01,182 --> 00:31:03,501 Speaker 3: her at the moment? She feels very in the ZEITGEI. 624 00:31:03,542 --> 00:31:06,062 Speaker 3: So there was that book that's recently come out about her. 625 00:31:06,102 --> 00:31:07,342 Speaker 3: You and Amelia were talking. 626 00:31:07,102 --> 00:31:10,701 Speaker 1: About so, I mean her stories actually depletely tragic, because 627 00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:15,661 Speaker 1: if you think about Princess Diana and Meghan Markle, like 628 00:31:15,742 --> 00:31:18,421 Speaker 1: early Diana without any of the confidence. Meghan Michael's not 629 00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,382 Speaker 1: quite right in terms of she was very confident and 630 00:31:21,422 --> 00:31:23,822 Speaker 1: she was a famous actress, and she's been very comfortable 631 00:31:23,862 --> 00:31:26,902 Speaker 1: with public attention, obviously not the trolling. But Carolyn Besset 632 00:31:26,982 --> 00:31:29,181 Speaker 1: Kennedy never wanted to be famous. She worked for Calvin 633 00:31:29,222 --> 00:31:32,421 Speaker 1: Klein behind the scenes. She never did an interview, I 634 00:31:32,422 --> 00:31:36,662 Speaker 1: don't think, and she was absolutely stalked and harassed by paparazzi. 635 00:31:36,702 --> 00:31:39,221 Speaker 1: So they lived in New York and she was on 636 00:31:39,262 --> 00:31:41,661 Speaker 1: the street everywhere. So there's a very limited number of 637 00:31:41,661 --> 00:31:45,102 Speaker 1: photos of her and every outfit that she wore back 638 00:31:45,102 --> 00:31:47,582 Speaker 1: in the nineties, you could look at it now, it 639 00:31:47,622 --> 00:31:51,221 Speaker 1: would look current now, and it's weirdly always looked current 640 00:31:51,622 --> 00:31:53,422 Speaker 1: ever since the early nineties. 641 00:31:53,542 --> 00:31:56,862 Speaker 3: So why am I seeing stuff about like a movie 642 00:31:56,942 --> 00:31:59,622 Speaker 3: coming out and people are mad about the movie exactly? 643 00:31:59,782 --> 00:32:03,661 Speaker 1: So what's happened is that Ryan Murphy, who is the 644 00:32:03,782 --> 00:32:07,222 Speaker 1: producer of all kinds of huge, big Hollywood things, He's 645 00:32:07,262 --> 00:32:10,902 Speaker 1: got a series deal with Netflix. He's making a show 646 00:32:10,942 --> 00:32:13,302 Speaker 1: called American Love Story, which is either a series or 647 00:32:13,302 --> 00:32:17,502 Speaker 1: a film I'm not sure for streaming about JFK Jr. 648 00:32:17,742 --> 00:32:21,701 Speaker 1: And carolmber Set Kennedy because it was hugely part in 649 00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:25,622 Speaker 1: that same way when Diana died, all of the world 650 00:32:25,661 --> 00:32:29,102 Speaker 1: and the UK went into shock and grief the Kennedys 651 00:32:29,462 --> 00:32:32,462 Speaker 1: like American royalty, and when he died tragically and suddenly 652 00:32:32,542 --> 00:32:35,102 Speaker 1: all these things about the Kennedy curse and the women 653 00:32:35,382 --> 00:32:38,501 Speaker 1: who encountered the Kennedy's and what happens to them. So 654 00:32:38,542 --> 00:32:41,421 Speaker 1: there's been absolute public fascination. It was super smart of 655 00:32:41,502 --> 00:32:45,542 Speaker 1: him to decide to make this show about them. However, 656 00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:49,421 Speaker 1: on the weekend last weekend, he released a series of 657 00:32:49,462 --> 00:32:52,742 Speaker 1: photos of the actor and actress who've been cast to play. 658 00:32:53,182 --> 00:32:56,181 Speaker 1: A newcomer called Paul Kelly's playing JFK. Junior, and an 659 00:32:56,222 --> 00:32:58,622 Speaker 1: actress I'm not familiar with called Sarah Pigeon is playing 660 00:32:58,702 --> 00:33:03,262 Speaker 1: carolynber Set Kennedy. Now, he says they were just camera tests. 661 00:33:03,782 --> 00:33:06,862 Speaker 1: Everyone went nuts. The color of the hair was wrong, 662 00:33:07,142 --> 00:33:11,062 Speaker 1: the burken bag that she was carrying was the clothes 663 00:33:11,142 --> 00:33:13,502 Speaker 1: she was wearing. And since then they've started filming on 664 00:33:13,542 --> 00:33:17,382 Speaker 1: the streets of New York and people have just ripped 665 00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:21,622 Speaker 1: into the actress for not looking right. Karen Beusset, Kennedy's 666 00:33:21,622 --> 00:33:24,102 Speaker 1: original hairstylist, a guy called Brad Johns who's retired now. 667 00:33:24,102 --> 00:33:26,822 Speaker 1: He came out and said, the hair is completely wrong. Like, 668 00:33:26,862 --> 00:33:30,422 Speaker 1: this is a woman who is there's a cult around her, 669 00:33:30,462 --> 00:33:32,502 Speaker 1: and I would say I'm part of that. 670 00:33:32,502 --> 00:33:35,262 Speaker 2: The cult is only about what she looks like. Nobody 671 00:33:35,382 --> 00:33:38,342 Speaker 2: hardly ever talks about what she was like. You know, 672 00:33:38,462 --> 00:33:42,022 Speaker 2: there's a little bit out there about yees new bit neurotic, 673 00:33:42,102 --> 00:33:44,461 Speaker 2: maybe there was some you know, like people have speculated 674 00:33:44,502 --> 00:33:47,902 Speaker 2: and said lots of uncharitable things, But it's what she 675 00:33:48,102 --> 00:33:51,102 Speaker 2: looks like that everybody's particularly obsessed with. So if the 676 00:33:51,222 --> 00:33:54,022 Speaker 2: hair color, and it's a very particular rich girl blonde 677 00:33:54,142 --> 00:33:58,342 Speaker 2: right of the time, is half a shade wrong, it's 678 00:33:58,382 --> 00:33:58,982 Speaker 2: a big deal. 679 00:33:59,342 --> 00:34:02,502 Speaker 1: People feel insulted. People are like, you have all this 680 00:34:02,622 --> 00:34:06,422 Speaker 1: reference material, So much of what we know about her 681 00:34:06,742 --> 00:34:08,102 Speaker 1: is coded from photos. 682 00:34:08,262 --> 00:34:09,542 Speaker 2: As you said, they all paparatta. 683 00:34:10,062 --> 00:34:12,982 Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of those outfits still exist, and you know, 684 00:34:13,182 --> 00:34:15,542 Speaker 1: various people own them, they've bet some of them being auctioned. 685 00:34:15,822 --> 00:34:18,301 Speaker 1: So Ryan Murphy had to address the backlash because it 686 00:34:18,342 --> 00:34:20,502 Speaker 1: was really full on a lot of my group chats 687 00:34:20,502 --> 00:34:23,781 Speaker 1: with people who are also obsessed with her have lit up. 688 00:34:23,822 --> 00:34:26,421 Speaker 1: I'm in a subreddit called John and Carolyn, who has 689 00:34:26,701 --> 00:34:30,661 Speaker 1: absolutely gone off. I was in it beforehand, just anyway, 690 00:34:30,781 --> 00:34:33,181 Speaker 1: I followed quite a few Instagram accounts. He came out 691 00:34:33,221 --> 00:34:35,142 Speaker 1: and said he was clearly quite shocked about all of this, 692 00:34:35,221 --> 00:34:38,022 Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy, and he said, Carolyn Bassett is clearly a 693 00:34:38,062 --> 00:34:40,982 Speaker 1: religious figure, and it's a religion of her own. When 694 00:34:41,102 --> 00:34:43,901 Speaker 1: narrating the story of an unknown individual who falls in 695 00:34:43,902 --> 00:34:45,821 Speaker 1: love with the most famous man in the world and 696 00:34:45,862 --> 00:34:48,781 Speaker 1: suddenly she can't leave her house, she was constantly photographed 697 00:34:48,781 --> 00:34:52,582 Speaker 1: being insulted by the paparazzi. They're doing to our Caroline 698 00:34:52,661 --> 00:34:55,382 Speaker 1: what they did to the real life Caroline. It is 699 00:34:55,502 --> 00:34:56,582 Speaker 1: unjust cool. 700 00:34:56,982 --> 00:34:57,822 Speaker 2: That's so true. 701 00:34:58,181 --> 00:35:00,742 Speaker 3: This casting thing though, exactly what happened with the Crown. 702 00:35:00,902 --> 00:35:04,701 Speaker 3: Remember they cast Diana ELIZABETHA Becky, Yeah, and they got 703 00:35:04,741 --> 00:35:05,942 Speaker 3: really mad because they went not. 704 00:35:06,982 --> 00:35:07,701 Speaker 2: Been good for this. 705 00:35:08,022 --> 00:35:11,182 Speaker 1: She would have a little bit too old, though, Elizabeth Tibiki. 706 00:35:11,261 --> 00:35:13,261 Speaker 1: But you're right. I mean there are a number of actresses, 707 00:35:13,261 --> 00:35:15,622 Speaker 1: which of course everyone's always been talking who would you 708 00:35:15,701 --> 00:35:18,022 Speaker 1: cast if you were going to cast the actor that 709 00:35:18,062 --> 00:35:20,102 Speaker 1: they've chosen. I'm not familiar with her, I don't know 710 00:35:20,142 --> 00:35:22,941 Speaker 1: her work. Obviously, Ryan Murphy's pretty good at what he does. 711 00:35:23,261 --> 00:35:25,142 Speaker 1: I don't think you would have cast about actress, but 712 00:35:25,542 --> 00:35:28,342 Speaker 1: your right hole. It's so coded in how she looks, 713 00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:30,821 Speaker 1: and people are upset that she doesn't quite look right. 714 00:35:30,862 --> 00:35:34,142 Speaker 1: And then the outfits that she was perhaps wearing on 715 00:35:34,181 --> 00:35:36,622 Speaker 1: the street while they were filming. People are saying, it's 716 00:35:36,661 --> 00:35:40,822 Speaker 1: like Temu Carolyn Bissett Kennedy that she's wearing like cheap 717 00:35:40,862 --> 00:35:43,622 Speaker 1: satin skirt and converse. The thing most people are insulted 718 00:35:43,622 --> 00:35:46,181 Speaker 1: by is that they showed her with like a pleath blazer, 719 00:35:46,661 --> 00:35:51,822 Speaker 1: a black topic chocolate brown, nasty, cheap kind of bias 720 00:35:51,902 --> 00:35:56,181 Speaker 1: cut skirt in satin, and a high top black converse, 721 00:35:56,542 --> 00:35:59,142 Speaker 1: and like I could honestly recite to you every outfit 722 00:35:59,221 --> 00:36:01,261 Speaker 1: she's ever worn. I could identify them. I could, And 723 00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:02,981 Speaker 1: it's like, how can they have got this so wrong? 724 00:36:02,982 --> 00:36:05,781 Speaker 2: There's probably the difference between and maybe what we've seen 725 00:36:05,822 --> 00:36:08,102 Speaker 2: now the test stuff, as you say, a very good 726 00:36:08,142 --> 00:36:10,901 Speaker 2: costume department and are not so good costume department, Because 727 00:36:10,902 --> 00:36:13,022 Speaker 2: the thing is is you can wear someone else's clothes 728 00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:16,062 Speaker 2: like I could dresses mea today. Right, But if I 729 00:36:16,102 --> 00:36:18,701 Speaker 2: don't have a deep understanding, and Mia obviously has a 730 00:36:18,781 --> 00:36:21,381 Speaker 2: very specific style that Mia has about her style, I'm 731 00:36:21,382 --> 00:36:22,821 Speaker 2: going to get it wrong. I'm going to get the 732 00:36:22,942 --> 00:36:25,542 Speaker 2: shirt's not going to be quite the right kind of oversize, 733 00:36:26,102 --> 00:36:28,422 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. There's very specific details, and 734 00:36:28,502 --> 00:36:33,661 Speaker 2: surely the really good costumers of the world understand that deeply. Right. 735 00:36:34,022 --> 00:36:38,662 Speaker 1: He says, there's a ten person wardrobe committee, including people 736 00:36:38,701 --> 00:36:41,661 Speaker 1: who have these Instagram accounts that have been going for 737 00:36:41,822 --> 00:36:44,261 Speaker 1: twenty years. I think because there's a finite number of 738 00:36:44,302 --> 00:36:47,862 Speaker 1: photos with her, because she tragically died so young, everybody 739 00:36:47,902 --> 00:36:51,542 Speaker 1: is so so ingrained with these images, and anything that 740 00:36:51,582 --> 00:36:55,781 Speaker 1: doesn't fit exactly people feel really insulted by. But it's 741 00:36:55,822 --> 00:36:59,502 Speaker 1: interesting because it raises these issues of accuracy and taste, 742 00:36:59,542 --> 00:37:03,262 Speaker 1: but also of ethics, because Jack Schlosberg, who is JFK 743 00:37:03,422 --> 00:37:06,701 Speaker 1: Junior's nephew, the son of his sister, has come out 744 00:37:06,701 --> 00:37:09,822 Speaker 1: and said, this is grotesque what Ryan Murphy's doing. Family 745 00:37:09,982 --> 00:37:13,821 Speaker 1: of JFK Junior wasn't consulted. Presumably Carolen Bessett's family weren't 746 00:37:13,822 --> 00:37:16,582 Speaker 1: consulted either. We hope you're going to donate some money 747 00:37:16,622 --> 00:37:20,261 Speaker 1: to the JFK Junior Memorial Fund or whatever it is. 748 00:37:20,701 --> 00:37:22,381 Speaker 1: And Ron Murphy came out and said, yes, we did 749 00:37:22,422 --> 00:37:24,982 Speaker 1: do that, and he's not trying to upset anyone, but like, 750 00:37:25,661 --> 00:37:27,301 Speaker 1: is it is all a bit dicky. And I say, 751 00:37:27,302 --> 00:37:29,301 Speaker 1: this is someone who has poured over photos of her 752 00:37:29,342 --> 00:37:31,062 Speaker 1: for all these years, and I've been thinking so much 753 00:37:31,102 --> 00:37:34,542 Speaker 1: about her poor mother who lost two daughters in that crash, 754 00:37:34,741 --> 00:37:37,421 Speaker 1: and one of them was a twin, and her twin 755 00:37:37,502 --> 00:37:41,382 Speaker 1: sister is still alive, Lisa Bessett, And yeah, I just 756 00:37:41,422 --> 00:37:46,382 Speaker 1: think about them, like we've fetishized the image of this 757 00:37:46,502 --> 00:37:50,102 Speaker 1: dead woman and she was a person, as you say, Holly. Anyway, 758 00:37:50,142 --> 00:37:54,261 Speaker 1: it's coming out on Netflix, presumably in twenty twenty six. 759 00:37:55,261 --> 00:37:58,701 Speaker 3: Friends Before we Go. Megan Markle has released a rose 760 00:37:58,982 --> 00:38:02,862 Speaker 3: or Azam Vernam likes to call it bitch dsl oh, yeah, 761 00:38:02,942 --> 00:38:03,741 Speaker 3: do we like a rose? 762 00:38:04,422 --> 00:38:07,261 Speaker 2: I love a rose. I have a basic bitch, like 763 00:38:07,302 --> 00:38:11,102 Speaker 2: a very dry rose. I will be drinking Meghan's if 764 00:38:11,142 --> 00:38:12,461 Speaker 2: I can get my sticky little pause. 765 00:38:12,542 --> 00:38:15,262 Speaker 3: I was worried that you would say that, because holy 766 00:38:15,422 --> 00:38:18,102 Speaker 3: the cost of the rose plus a seventy five dollars 767 00:38:18,102 --> 00:38:20,861 Speaker 3: shipping to the regional town of New South Wales where 768 00:38:20,902 --> 00:38:22,781 Speaker 3: you live. Is not a good use of money, and 769 00:38:22,862 --> 00:38:24,142 Speaker 3: Maya and I need to intervene. 770 00:38:24,302 --> 00:38:25,622 Speaker 2: How much is more energy? 771 00:38:25,741 --> 00:38:27,301 Speaker 3: I don't even know because it's coming out on the 772 00:38:27,342 --> 00:38:29,821 Speaker 3: first of July. And you might ask Jesse, why is 773 00:38:29,862 --> 00:38:32,341 Speaker 3: that date significant? Well, let me tell you it would 774 00:38:32,422 --> 00:38:34,381 Speaker 3: be Princess Diana's sixty fourth birth. 775 00:38:34,942 --> 00:38:38,582 Speaker 1: Speaking of capitalizing on the image, I disagree, as that 776 00:38:38,622 --> 00:38:39,341 Speaker 1: was her mother in law. 777 00:38:39,382 --> 00:38:41,741 Speaker 3: Some people are going, you know, it's a significant date, 778 00:38:41,781 --> 00:38:45,622 Speaker 3: and apparently that's when Meghan and Harry first met off, 779 00:38:45,622 --> 00:38:47,582 Speaker 3: first reached out to each other. It's a significant date 780 00:38:47,622 --> 00:38:50,501 Speaker 3: for them and their love story. I think it's just summer. 781 00:38:51,102 --> 00:38:53,502 Speaker 2: Because is a summer thing. You got to wait for 782 00:38:53,502 --> 00:38:55,942 Speaker 2: summer season. The thing is is this is genius on 783 00:38:55,942 --> 00:38:58,741 Speaker 2: Megan's part, because every savvy celebrity knows that if you 784 00:38:58,781 --> 00:39:01,542 Speaker 2: want the female market release of Bloody Rose, Brad and 785 00:39:01,582 --> 00:39:04,221 Speaker 2: Angelina have a Rose. It's been one of the many 786 00:39:04,221 --> 00:39:04,582 Speaker 2: things that. 787 00:39:04,942 --> 00:39:07,302 Speaker 3: One thing they can't resolve in their divorce. 788 00:39:07,382 --> 00:39:10,221 Speaker 2: It's good. It's called miravale. I have drunk much of it. 789 00:39:10,582 --> 00:39:14,062 Speaker 2: Drew barrmol has one, Kylie Minogue has one, Jessica Parker 790 00:39:14,142 --> 00:39:14,502 Speaker 2: has one. 791 00:39:14,982 --> 00:39:15,862 Speaker 1: We have one. 792 00:39:15,942 --> 00:39:17,181 Speaker 3: That's what I was going to say. I think we 793 00:39:17,181 --> 00:39:17,941 Speaker 3: should start a rose. 794 00:39:18,181 --> 00:39:18,901 Speaker 2: Can we call it bitch. 795 00:39:19,302 --> 00:39:24,022 Speaker 1: Anyone's listening and you have a winery or or a 796 00:39:24,062 --> 00:39:27,741 Speaker 1: wine manufacturer, We're interested in making our own. Out loud 797 00:39:27,741 --> 00:39:31,181 Speaker 1: bitch Diesel come at us, Let's. 798 00:39:30,902 --> 00:39:34,102 Speaker 2: Come out massive. Thank you out louders for being with 799 00:39:34,221 --> 00:39:36,582 Speaker 2: us here on our Wednesday show where we have traversed 800 00:39:37,422 --> 00:39:40,302 Speaker 2: all kinds of territory really from water Rose to Brad 801 00:39:40,342 --> 00:39:43,302 Speaker 2: Pitt like I mean really Orcas. It's been a lot 802 00:39:43,342 --> 00:39:45,861 Speaker 2: and that's what we hope you expect from us. Thank 803 00:39:45,902 --> 00:39:47,701 Speaker 2: you to all of you for listening and to our 804 00:39:47,701 --> 00:39:49,982 Speaker 2: team for putting it together. Please remember, if you are 805 00:39:49,982 --> 00:39:52,622 Speaker 2: looking at us on social or of course on YouTube, 806 00:39:52,741 --> 00:39:55,382 Speaker 2: our studio is a styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. 807 00:39:55,741 --> 00:39:57,661 Speaker 2: Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com, dot a you to 808 00:39:57,661 --> 00:39:59,422 Speaker 2: find out more about that. We're going to be back 809 00:39:59,462 --> 00:40:00,302 Speaker 2: in yours tomorrow. 810 00:40:00,462 --> 00:40:02,462 Speaker 3: But if you want something else to listen to, then 811 00:40:02,502 --> 00:40:06,982 Speaker 3: on yesterday's Subscribe episode, Holly and Burnham and I discussed 812 00:40:07,221 --> 00:40:10,142 Speaker 3: last meeting theory, and that's about if you've ever had 813 00:40:10,142 --> 00:40:12,381 Speaker 3: a relationship or a friendship with someone and you've had 814 00:40:12,382 --> 00:40:14,701 Speaker 3: a really monumental last meeting, or you feel like you 815 00:40:14,781 --> 00:40:16,502 Speaker 3: keep running into them. I haven't been. 816 00:40:16,302 --> 00:40:18,422 Speaker 1: Seeing this on social everywhere. You're going to explain it 817 00:40:18,422 --> 00:40:18,582 Speaker 1: to me. 818 00:40:18,701 --> 00:40:21,342 Speaker 3: We're going to explain it. And also, for some reason, 819 00:40:21,862 --> 00:40:23,781 Speaker 3: I'm a real sucker for this, and I have some 820 00:40:23,862 --> 00:40:27,542 Speaker 3: really creepy coincidental stories that I share. Holly is a 821 00:40:27,542 --> 00:40:30,422 Speaker 3: little more skeptical as always. Will pop a link in 822 00:40:30,462 --> 00:40:31,102 Speaker 3: the show notes. 823 00:40:31,342 --> 00:40:32,981 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, Bye bye. 824 00:40:34,142 --> 00:40:36,661 Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and me a subscribers listening. 825 00:40:36,942 --> 00:40:39,062 Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us, 826 00:40:39,302 --> 00:40:42,102 Speaker 3: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way 827 00:40:42,142 --> 00:40:44,702 Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.