1 00:00:10,287 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,767 --> 00:00:19,047 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on out Louders. 4 00:00:19,087 --> 00:00:21,847 Speaker 1: If you're missing your weekly out loud routine over the break, 5 00:00:21,887 --> 00:00:24,767 Speaker 1: and why wouldn't you be, we wanted to let you 6 00:00:24,807 --> 00:00:27,127 Speaker 1: know that we are still dropping episodes for Mama Mia 7 00:00:27,167 --> 00:00:31,127 Speaker 1: subscribers all summer long. So as a subscriber, you get 8 00:00:31,167 --> 00:00:34,007 Speaker 1: full access to out Loud, including the back catalog of 9 00:00:34,087 --> 00:00:37,887 Speaker 1: over two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes. Listen to 10 00:00:37,967 --> 00:00:41,047 Speaker 1: us until your ear is bleed. Subscribe to Momma Miya 11 00:00:41,367 --> 00:00:43,327 Speaker 1: via the link in the episode description. 12 00:00:46,967 --> 00:00:49,847 Speaker 2: Hello, lovely out louders, It's Holly here to tell you 13 00:00:49,927 --> 00:00:53,727 Speaker 2: all about Hot pod Summer. This summer, I am hoping 14 00:00:53,927 --> 00:00:56,647 Speaker 2: to be soaking up the sun in my garden, walking 15 00:00:56,687 --> 00:00:59,647 Speaker 2: my dog, hanging out with my kids, and admiring some 16 00:00:59,767 --> 00:01:02,087 Speaker 2: brand new tomatoes. And while I do all that, I'll 17 00:01:02,127 --> 00:01:05,727 Speaker 2: be listening to this specially curated selection of the best 18 00:01:05,767 --> 00:01:09,047 Speaker 2: out Loud podcasts from twenty twenty four. We've picked them 19 00:01:09,407 --> 00:01:12,087 Speaker 2: just for you. Not like my tomatoes, you can't have those. 20 00:01:12,407 --> 00:01:15,047 Speaker 2: Think of this series as a delightful escape where we 21 00:01:15,127 --> 00:01:17,847 Speaker 2: dive into all the episodes that made us laskave the 22 00:01:17,847 --> 00:01:20,287 Speaker 2: best insights even if we say so ourselves, and got 23 00:01:20,287 --> 00:01:23,407 Speaker 2: you all talking. So join me in celebrating the out 24 00:01:23,447 --> 00:01:26,087 Speaker 2: loud moments that made twenty twenty four shine. 25 00:01:27,687 --> 00:01:30,007 Speaker 3: If you had a friend who said to you, I'm 26 00:01:30,047 --> 00:01:32,767 Speaker 3: taking time off work to care for my terminally or mother, 27 00:01:33,327 --> 00:01:35,447 Speaker 3: or I'm the full time carer to my adult child 28 00:01:35,447 --> 00:01:38,167 Speaker 3: with additional needs, or even I'm at home with three 29 00:01:38,247 --> 00:01:42,927 Speaker 3: kids this weekend, how would you respond, I'm so sorry. Yeah, 30 00:01:43,007 --> 00:01:45,687 Speaker 3: you might say that must be hard. I don't know 31 00:01:45,727 --> 00:01:47,687 Speaker 3: how you do it. In the case of a parent 32 00:01:47,727 --> 00:01:50,247 Speaker 3: with an illness, you would absolutely say that that's tough, 33 00:01:50,407 --> 00:01:53,727 Speaker 3: that's really tough. That's really tough. What can I doah? 34 00:01:53,807 --> 00:01:56,247 Speaker 3: And all those things would be a true and a 35 00:01:56,287 --> 00:02:00,367 Speaker 3: compassionate response. We might think about the burden of care, 36 00:02:00,647 --> 00:02:04,647 Speaker 3: the emotional and financial cost, maybe even feel some pity 37 00:02:04,967 --> 00:02:07,687 Speaker 3: about people in that situation or empathy. 38 00:02:07,927 --> 00:02:08,287 Speaker 1: Yeah. 39 00:02:08,527 --> 00:02:11,407 Speaker 3: Well, a woman named Alyssa Strauss wants to challenge that 40 00:02:11,447 --> 00:02:14,087 Speaker 3: a little bit. She has written a book called When 41 00:02:14,167 --> 00:02:17,167 Speaker 3: You Care, The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others, and 42 00:02:17,207 --> 00:02:20,167 Speaker 3: she was interviewed for Anne Helen Peterson's newsletter this week. 43 00:02:21,007 --> 00:02:24,247 Speaker 3: She argues that basically, as a culture, we have no 44 00:02:24,407 --> 00:02:27,407 Speaker 3: curiosity when it comes to caring. We're doing a great 45 00:02:27,487 --> 00:02:31,207 Speaker 3: job at casting caring in the worst possible light. There's 46 00:02:31,287 --> 00:02:35,287 Speaker 3: no infrastructure or support for caregivers, so care makes you 47 00:02:35,447 --> 00:02:38,927 Speaker 3: poor and it exhausts you. She talks about compulsory or 48 00:02:38,967 --> 00:02:41,847 Speaker 3: coerced care, which is something that patriarchy has done a 49 00:02:41,847 --> 00:02:45,487 Speaker 3: great job of sustaining for a very long time. Feminism 50 00:02:45,567 --> 00:02:48,407 Speaker 3: has had to rebel against this in some ways. But 51 00:02:48,527 --> 00:02:53,447 Speaker 3: this view of caring as uninteresting or unproductive is very Western, 52 00:02:53,607 --> 00:02:56,687 Speaker 3: and it overlooks that care is actually what makes the 53 00:02:56,727 --> 00:03:00,927 Speaker 3: world go round. Strauss writes, nobody turns to the mum 54 00:03:01,087 --> 00:03:03,647 Speaker 3: or caregiver at a dinner party and asks for her 55 00:03:03,687 --> 00:03:08,367 Speaker 3: broader insights into life or human psychology or philosophy, even 56 00:03:08,407 --> 00:03:10,607 Speaker 3: though they might have a lot more insights than the 57 00:03:10,607 --> 00:03:12,887 Speaker 3: guy in the suit with a fancy degree or whatever 58 00:03:13,487 --> 00:03:14,367 Speaker 3: instead or. 59 00:03:14,287 --> 00:03:17,207 Speaker 1: The lady in the suit, yeah, who pushes buttons all day. 60 00:03:17,607 --> 00:03:19,927 Speaker 3: The lives of cares are assumed to be a bit 61 00:03:19,967 --> 00:03:22,847 Speaker 3: of a tragedy, but the people she interviewed found a 62 00:03:22,847 --> 00:03:25,607 Speaker 3: lot of purpose and meaning, and what they did and 63 00:03:25,727 --> 00:03:29,407 Speaker 3: these people doing the work of maintaining, preserving, and cultivating 64 00:03:29,487 --> 00:03:33,727 Speaker 3: humanity are abundantly worthy of collective support. I think we 65 00:03:33,807 --> 00:03:37,127 Speaker 3: can agree in the interview, and Helen Peterson says, and 66 00:03:37,167 --> 00:03:38,567 Speaker 3: this is specifically about parenting. 67 00:03:39,127 --> 00:03:40,007 Speaker 1: I just keep. 68 00:03:39,847 --> 00:03:42,607 Speaker 3: Thinking of how many parents I know of all genders, 69 00:03:42,647 --> 00:03:46,447 Speaker 3: who are utterly unprepared for parenting, in part because they'd 70 00:03:46,527 --> 00:03:49,487 Speaker 3: never done this sort of work, never woven it into 71 00:03:49,527 --> 00:03:52,607 Speaker 3: their daily lives, never die, put a baby, sure, but 72 00:03:52,647 --> 00:03:55,527 Speaker 3: also never figured out how to get through a boring day. 73 00:03:56,327 --> 00:03:59,007 Speaker 3: We know that care work is underpaid and undervalued and 74 00:03:59,087 --> 00:04:02,207 Speaker 3: under resourced or which needs to be addressed, but is 75 00:04:02,247 --> 00:04:05,367 Speaker 3: it time to talk about the meaning, the self worth 76 00:04:05,727 --> 00:04:08,607 Speaker 3: and the connection that can also come from care. 77 00:04:09,927 --> 00:04:12,727 Speaker 1: Wow, this is amazing. I think that at the heart 78 00:04:12,767 --> 00:04:17,767 Speaker 1: of this is that caring in our society has always 79 00:04:17,847 --> 00:04:22,887 Speaker 1: been a female task and a female responsibility. And I 80 00:04:22,927 --> 00:04:26,967 Speaker 1: won't say privilege, because women have rarely, as you said, 81 00:04:27,167 --> 00:04:30,247 Speaker 1: had a choice. And I think that any role or 82 00:04:30,407 --> 00:04:33,487 Speaker 1: task in our society that is predominantly done by women 83 00:04:33,887 --> 00:04:38,487 Speaker 1: has low status, always has so I think that when 84 00:04:38,487 --> 00:04:41,567 Speaker 1: someone has to care for someone else, it is seen 85 00:04:41,607 --> 00:04:45,087 Speaker 1: as a compromise and a sacrifice, the idea of it 86 00:04:45,167 --> 00:04:50,007 Speaker 1: being a privilege. I've experienced this caring for someone while 87 00:04:50,007 --> 00:04:52,247 Speaker 1: they were dying. I wasn't the sole career, but I 88 00:04:52,367 --> 00:04:58,167 Speaker 1: was in the inner circle, and that was an incredible privilege. 89 00:04:58,647 --> 00:05:01,327 Speaker 1: But it didn't go on for a really, really long time. 90 00:05:02,687 --> 00:05:06,287 Speaker 1: The types of caring where someone is sick, or caring 91 00:05:06,327 --> 00:05:09,887 Speaker 1: for children, it is just long and and I think 92 00:05:09,927 --> 00:05:12,127 Speaker 1: what you say is really interesting. It makes me think 93 00:05:12,127 --> 00:05:16,207 Speaker 1: about our conversations about babysitting. So, you know, my son 94 00:05:16,647 --> 00:05:20,007 Speaker 1: doesn't want a babysit loves learned to pieces, but doesn't 95 00:05:20,047 --> 00:05:21,847 Speaker 1: want to change nappy. Now, I think that's pretty typical 96 00:05:21,847 --> 00:05:25,207 Speaker 1: of a fifteen year old boy. But also, if you're 97 00:05:25,247 --> 00:05:28,127 Speaker 1: in a big family, you just have to, like, you 98 00:05:28,247 --> 00:05:29,927 Speaker 1: just have to do that stuff, and it is the 99 00:05:29,967 --> 00:05:33,007 Speaker 1: stuff of life, doing things you don't want to do. 100 00:05:33,247 --> 00:05:37,767 Speaker 1: I'm so about our society not preparing us for things 101 00:05:37,807 --> 00:05:40,807 Speaker 1: we don't want to do, because we get instant gratification. 102 00:05:40,967 --> 00:05:42,807 Speaker 1: You know, if you're bored, pick up your phone, if 103 00:05:42,847 --> 00:05:45,767 Speaker 1: you're thirsty, reach once in a meter for your water bottle. 104 00:05:46,367 --> 00:05:48,647 Speaker 1: We don't have to sacrifice anything. We don't have to 105 00:05:48,687 --> 00:05:51,127 Speaker 1: experience uncomfortable emotions and I love what you say about 106 00:05:51,807 --> 00:05:53,087 Speaker 1: it's really can be really boring. 107 00:05:53,327 --> 00:05:56,287 Speaker 3: And we're obsessed with productivity, right, and we've seen that 108 00:05:56,367 --> 00:06:00,327 Speaker 3: as almost an impediment productivity, where it's like, oh, if 109 00:06:00,367 --> 00:06:01,847 Speaker 3: I'm at home with the kids all day, I can't 110 00:06:01,887 --> 00:06:04,487 Speaker 3: get this done, as though that being with the kids 111 00:06:04,527 --> 00:06:07,487 Speaker 3: at home all day is not at also a thing, 112 00:06:07,687 --> 00:06:11,887 Speaker 3: and there's a gendered element. There's another element that capitalism, 113 00:06:12,127 --> 00:06:15,087 Speaker 3: which is also about the cult of individualism that we 114 00:06:15,327 --> 00:06:19,327 Speaker 3: like to think and believe that we are individuals who 115 00:06:19,727 --> 00:06:24,887 Speaker 3: have agency and who have control and power and can 116 00:06:24,927 --> 00:06:29,247 Speaker 3: draw boundaries around ourselves. But that's a fallacy. Like we 117 00:06:29,327 --> 00:06:33,487 Speaker 3: are deeply interconnected, and whether it's as babies or whether 118 00:06:33,527 --> 00:06:34,887 Speaker 3: it's as elderly. 119 00:06:34,527 --> 00:06:35,607 Speaker 1: People rely on each other. 120 00:06:35,607 --> 00:06:37,607 Speaker 3: We rely on each other and we're probably going to 121 00:06:37,647 --> 00:06:40,887 Speaker 3: need nephew's changed on either side. But that's something we 122 00:06:40,887 --> 00:06:43,967 Speaker 3: don't want to think about until we're in it. I think, Holly, 123 00:06:44,127 --> 00:06:46,967 Speaker 3: do you think that this is a little bit dangerous? 124 00:06:47,047 --> 00:06:52,327 Speaker 3: Is it a way of kind of romanticizing something that's insane. 125 00:06:52,367 --> 00:06:56,607 Speaker 1: It's a privilege it Chile, you don't need to be paid. 126 00:06:56,607 --> 00:06:58,727 Speaker 1: It's I'm just caring for the honor of it just. 127 00:06:58,727 --> 00:07:01,647 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance in it, right, because 128 00:07:01,967 --> 00:07:05,927 Speaker 2: I entirely agree that caring is a privilege, and I 129 00:07:05,927 --> 00:07:07,887 Speaker 2: also entirely agree that it's going to teach you more 130 00:07:07,887 --> 00:07:10,327 Speaker 2: about life than many things. I love that quote in 131 00:07:10,367 --> 00:07:13,287 Speaker 2: the interview about you know, not turning to the woman 132 00:07:13,327 --> 00:07:15,167 Speaker 2: at the dinner table because you're like, well, what do 133 00:07:15,247 --> 00:07:18,047 Speaker 2: you know stay home with babies all day? I entirely 134 00:07:18,127 --> 00:07:23,927 Speaker 2: understand that, But I worry a little bit about us reframing, well, 135 00:07:23,967 --> 00:07:27,287 Speaker 2: what an enormous privilege it is to care for somebody 136 00:07:27,327 --> 00:07:30,447 Speaker 2: in a thankless way, because it is always women. It 137 00:07:30,527 --> 00:07:34,127 Speaker 2: is always women, right, And I teach nurses, yes, but 138 00:07:34,167 --> 00:07:37,167 Speaker 2: they're paid but not well, yes, but the unpaid roles. 139 00:07:37,687 --> 00:07:40,967 Speaker 2: The tension in this is it's expected you'll do it, 140 00:07:41,447 --> 00:07:44,127 Speaker 2: and some people, male or female, will be good at it, 141 00:07:44,167 --> 00:07:46,447 Speaker 2: and some people won't. I hate the idea that we 142 00:07:46,487 --> 00:07:51,087 Speaker 2: think all women are nurturers and careers and somehow instinctively 143 00:07:51,087 --> 00:07:52,967 Speaker 2: going to be better at this because I don't actually, 144 00:07:53,367 --> 00:07:55,127 Speaker 2: like I could say about myself with a lot of 145 00:07:55,127 --> 00:07:57,767 Speaker 2: honesty that I do not think I'm a very nurturing person, 146 00:07:57,807 --> 00:08:00,127 Speaker 2: and I'm not very good at looking after people. When 147 00:08:00,127 --> 00:08:02,487 Speaker 2: they're sick, and I know that if and when that 148 00:08:02,607 --> 00:08:06,167 Speaker 2: comes to me in whatever form, it will be really 149 00:08:06,207 --> 00:08:08,447 Speaker 2: hard for me to do that, Whereas I know other 150 00:08:08,447 --> 00:08:13,247 Speaker 2: people who are such instinctive caregivers. They take care of 151 00:08:13,367 --> 00:08:15,567 Speaker 2: everyone around them all the time, you know, and they 152 00:08:15,607 --> 00:08:18,727 Speaker 2: almost force care upon you because they're like, I need 153 00:08:18,767 --> 00:08:20,767 Speaker 2: to look after you. It's part of their fabric. 154 00:08:20,927 --> 00:08:23,367 Speaker 1: So you think that's because some people find self worth 155 00:08:23,407 --> 00:08:27,047 Speaker 1: and meaning in care and status in care and others don't. 156 00:08:27,487 --> 00:08:29,767 Speaker 2: I don't think it's all about that. I don't think 157 00:08:29,807 --> 00:08:31,847 Speaker 2: that I'm not very good at it because it doesn't 158 00:08:31,847 --> 00:08:34,807 Speaker 2: have status for me. I think I'm just not that 159 00:08:34,927 --> 00:08:38,087 Speaker 2: kind of person. And I also think that like my mother, 160 00:08:38,207 --> 00:08:41,607 Speaker 2: isn't that kind of like it's I just don't agree 161 00:08:41,647 --> 00:08:43,967 Speaker 2: that women are always good at it. So, you know, 162 00:08:44,047 --> 00:08:45,967 Speaker 2: the default thing that we have discussed on the show 163 00:08:45,967 --> 00:08:49,367 Speaker 2: of the Oldest Daughter Syndrome that very often the person 164 00:08:49,367 --> 00:08:51,527 Speaker 2: who will be the one who's making the decisions for 165 00:08:51,607 --> 00:08:56,447 Speaker 2: families about elder care and you know, health decisions will 166 00:08:56,527 --> 00:08:59,447 Speaker 2: end up being the eldest daughter. Often that's whether she's 167 00:08:59,487 --> 00:09:02,367 Speaker 2: the best suited for that or not, and she very 168 00:09:02,407 --> 00:09:03,607 Speaker 2: well might. 169 00:09:03,447 --> 00:09:05,767 Speaker 1: Not be so and it might not even be the 170 00:09:05,807 --> 00:09:08,967 Speaker 1: oldest daughter. It might be the youngest daughter, a child. 171 00:09:09,807 --> 00:09:11,847 Speaker 1: Sorry you're saying it's the oldest daughter. So even if 172 00:09:11,847 --> 00:09:14,127 Speaker 1: there's five children, but the youngest one is a daughter, 173 00:09:14,207 --> 00:09:15,967 Speaker 1: it'll be the daughter because she's the oldest. 174 00:09:15,967 --> 00:09:19,327 Speaker 3: And that's why I liked the terminology of coerced yes 175 00:09:19,527 --> 00:09:23,247 Speaker 3: and explain that yes. So the history of it is 176 00:09:23,287 --> 00:09:27,767 Speaker 3: that it was difficult to find privilege in something that 177 00:09:27,847 --> 00:09:30,927 Speaker 3: you were forced to do. I'm talking in past tenses though. 178 00:09:30,967 --> 00:09:33,247 Speaker 3: This is a relic of history, but it's not. It's 179 00:09:33,247 --> 00:09:35,607 Speaker 3: still something that happens. If you have a terminally ill 180 00:09:35,807 --> 00:09:39,927 Speaker 3: parent or spouse, then you do have to do that. 181 00:09:40,007 --> 00:09:42,887 Speaker 3: Maybe if you've got a really close relationship, then you 182 00:09:42,927 --> 00:09:46,047 Speaker 3: can find privilege in it. But other people have almost 183 00:09:46,207 --> 00:09:49,807 Speaker 3: been forced to care for children they didn't want to have, 184 00:09:50,127 --> 00:09:52,967 Speaker 3: for example, and that's a totally different thing. 185 00:09:53,207 --> 00:09:56,127 Speaker 1: Trad wife. So Tia Leving's who I insu you don't 186 00:09:56,127 --> 00:10:00,047 Speaker 1: know filter this week she talks about you know, you 187 00:10:00,087 --> 00:10:03,047 Speaker 1: think of the douggers and nineteen kids in counting. In 188 00:10:03,087 --> 00:10:06,687 Speaker 1: those communities, often religious communities, where women contraception is not 189 00:10:06,727 --> 00:10:09,047 Speaker 1: available to them or it is against their religion, and 190 00:10:09,247 --> 00:10:12,567 Speaker 1: they are essentially encouraged slash coer slash forced to keep 191 00:10:12,567 --> 00:10:15,727 Speaker 1: having children, keep having children, so they're forced to stay 192 00:10:15,727 --> 00:10:17,247 Speaker 1: in this caregiving. 193 00:10:16,767 --> 00:10:19,247 Speaker 3: Role and some of them consuming. 194 00:10:19,487 --> 00:10:22,407 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody 195 00:10:22,447 --> 00:10:24,167 Speaker 1: does feel like it's a blessing, and many of them 196 00:10:24,167 --> 00:10:27,127 Speaker 1: become very resentful and also they're trapped. 197 00:10:27,607 --> 00:10:29,447 Speaker 2: I want to talk about the issue of do we 198 00:10:29,487 --> 00:10:31,767 Speaker 2: need to change our language and the attitudes we have 199 00:10:31,887 --> 00:10:35,167 Speaker 2: towards people who are in caring roles or taking on 200 00:10:35,207 --> 00:10:38,087 Speaker 2: caring responsibilities. Absolutely, we do. We need to give it 201 00:10:38,167 --> 00:10:41,527 Speaker 2: much more respect and importance and support, especially because it 202 00:10:41,567 --> 00:10:44,167 Speaker 2: affects so many women. But one of the reasons why 203 00:10:44,167 --> 00:10:46,207 Speaker 2: it's seen as a very difficult thing to do is 204 00:10:46,247 --> 00:10:49,087 Speaker 2: because very often the women, if we're calling the women 205 00:10:49,127 --> 00:10:51,087 Speaker 2: who are doing it, they have a lot of other 206 00:10:51,127 --> 00:10:54,807 Speaker 2: responsibilities too. Right when you are in a position where 207 00:10:54,847 --> 00:10:57,247 Speaker 2: you are, yes, caring for an elderly parent or a 208 00:10:57,367 --> 00:11:00,087 Speaker 2: child who is not as independent as they could be, 209 00:11:00,127 --> 00:11:02,327 Speaker 2: whether that's because of an illness or because of a circumstance, 210 00:11:02,407 --> 00:11:04,367 Speaker 2: or because of a mental illness, or for whatever reason, 211 00:11:04,687 --> 00:11:07,167 Speaker 2: you're very often also having to work if you possibly 212 00:11:07,207 --> 00:11:09,567 Speaker 2: can look after other people in your life. I do 213 00:11:09,607 --> 00:11:14,247 Speaker 2: all these other things, so it's like unpaid labor. And 214 00:11:14,327 --> 00:11:16,367 Speaker 2: I know that it's not right to call it labor 215 00:11:16,407 --> 00:11:19,367 Speaker 2: when it is a privilege, but it's that's not a 216 00:11:19,527 --> 00:11:20,487 Speaker 2: joyful if it's to. 217 00:11:20,487 --> 00:11:23,367 Speaker 1: Wipe a baby's bum every day, or wipe an old 218 00:11:23,407 --> 00:11:26,287 Speaker 1: person's bum every day, or you know, you think about 219 00:11:26,327 --> 00:11:28,967 Speaker 1: the kids who are forced into caring roles with their 220 00:11:28,967 --> 00:11:33,047 Speaker 1: own parents due to their parents' mental illness or physical illness, 221 00:11:33,647 --> 00:11:36,567 Speaker 1: and it's the kid who, sometimes at a really young age, 222 00:11:36,607 --> 00:11:37,527 Speaker 1: has to do that well. 223 00:11:37,567 --> 00:11:42,167 Speaker 3: I think meaning and insight, and not to romanticize it 224 00:11:42,167 --> 00:11:46,607 Speaker 3: too much, but meaning an insight doesn't occur in a 225 00:11:46,647 --> 00:11:49,367 Speaker 3: three second wipe of a bum, right like that is 226 00:11:49,447 --> 00:11:53,767 Speaker 3: one part of one day that most parents, I think 227 00:11:53,807 --> 00:11:56,567 Speaker 3: are just like this is part of the caring. And 228 00:11:57,447 --> 00:11:59,927 Speaker 3: there was this podcast I was listening to recently by 229 00:11:59,967 --> 00:12:03,447 Speaker 3: a neuroscientist. He's called like a compassion researcher or something, 230 00:12:03,487 --> 00:12:05,207 Speaker 3: and he's done all this study and he just says, 231 00:12:05,207 --> 00:12:07,767 Speaker 3: we don't talk about caring and compassion enough for what 232 00:12:07,767 --> 00:12:10,807 Speaker 3: it does for the brain. But there's something called like 233 00:12:10,847 --> 00:12:13,847 Speaker 3: a helper's high when someone needs something like let's say 234 00:12:13,847 --> 00:12:16,807 Speaker 3: a baby is crying and you give them what they 235 00:12:16,847 --> 00:12:19,487 Speaker 3: need and they stop crying. There is something that happens 236 00:12:19,527 --> 00:12:23,727 Speaker 3: to your brain, like a dopamine serotonin release. That's something 237 00:12:23,727 --> 00:12:26,287 Speaker 3: that's happened to us biologically so that we care for 238 00:12:26,327 --> 00:12:29,407 Speaker 3: the species. But if you never do it because you 239 00:12:29,487 --> 00:12:31,367 Speaker 3: never have to do it, because you've never been a 240 00:12:31,407 --> 00:12:34,647 Speaker 3: teen babysitter, or you've never cared for another sibling, or 241 00:12:34,727 --> 00:12:36,607 Speaker 3: you've never looked after your mum when she was sick, 242 00:12:36,767 --> 00:12:39,567 Speaker 3: or you've never had any contact with a grandmother who 243 00:12:39,607 --> 00:12:43,127 Speaker 3: is very ill, then it looks really bad from the 244 00:12:43,167 --> 00:12:44,887 Speaker 3: outside right, like you can't see. 245 00:12:45,087 --> 00:12:47,047 Speaker 2: It's like what Vernon was talking about last week when 246 00:12:47,047 --> 00:12:48,607 Speaker 2: she was talking about she looks at people who've just 247 00:12:48,647 --> 00:12:50,527 Speaker 2: had a baby and she's like, your life looks awful. 248 00:12:50,847 --> 00:12:52,007 Speaker 3: Oh, looks terrible. 249 00:12:52,087 --> 00:12:56,727 Speaker 1: But Jessie, what about the people who are caring for people. 250 00:12:56,847 --> 00:12:59,727 Speaker 1: They don't get that, They don't get the validation. You know. 251 00:12:59,767 --> 00:13:02,167 Speaker 1: It might be a child who is on the autism 252 00:13:02,247 --> 00:13:06,487 Speaker 1: spectrum and is nonverbal and is distressed, or caring for 253 00:13:06,527 --> 00:13:10,167 Speaker 1: someone with Alzheimer's who is violent or has demand and 254 00:13:10,207 --> 00:13:14,247 Speaker 1: there is no dopamine hit from I gave them what 255 00:13:14,287 --> 00:13:16,367 Speaker 1: they wanted and I did a good thing. There's no 256 00:13:16,487 --> 00:13:18,007 Speaker 1: sort of validation or award. 257 00:13:18,087 --> 00:13:20,447 Speaker 3: And this is what I found a really clever point 258 00:13:20,487 --> 00:13:23,647 Speaker 3: in this where she said that in reshaping a caring society, 259 00:13:24,127 --> 00:13:26,887 Speaker 3: cares need care and at the moment, cares have no care. 260 00:13:27,247 --> 00:13:29,807 Speaker 2: Yeah, that validation should come in that case from the 261 00:13:29,847 --> 00:13:30,727 Speaker 2: society around them. 262 00:13:31,167 --> 00:13:33,647 Speaker 3: What form if I'm a care So, for example, I 263 00:13:33,647 --> 00:13:36,247 Speaker 3: have an auntie at the moment, it's laughable the amount 264 00:13:36,287 --> 00:13:37,607 Speaker 3: of care work she's doing on top of a full 265 00:13:37,647 --> 00:13:40,207 Speaker 3: time job. But she's caring for my grandfather with dementia 266 00:13:40,247 --> 00:13:44,007 Speaker 3: and two of my relatives with intellectual disabilities. Now that 267 00:13:44,167 --> 00:13:47,727 Speaker 3: is really really hard. Someone should be cooking her dinner, 268 00:13:48,047 --> 00:13:49,847 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like you look at that 269 00:13:49,967 --> 00:13:53,047 Speaker 3: and you go some like and this is the stuff 270 00:13:53,047 --> 00:13:55,927 Speaker 3: that our family cared about, caring for the care and 271 00:13:55,967 --> 00:13:58,887 Speaker 3: going Okay, you need to not go and see your 272 00:13:58,967 --> 00:14:01,007 Speaker 3: dad today, we're actually going to get your sibling or 273 00:14:01,047 --> 00:14:04,007 Speaker 3: which you know, we're trying more and more to do, but. 274 00:14:04,207 --> 00:14:06,527 Speaker 2: It can be very hard for care as to accept care. 275 00:14:07,087 --> 00:14:09,727 Speaker 2: And when I spoke to Catherine may on mid who's 276 00:14:09,767 --> 00:14:13,967 Speaker 2: an author who writes a lot about burnout and input 277 00:14:14,007 --> 00:14:14,967 Speaker 2: in and input. 278 00:14:14,767 --> 00:14:15,487 Speaker 1: Out and all that stuff. 279 00:14:15,527 --> 00:14:17,767 Speaker 2: She said a lot about how caring is a privilege 280 00:14:17,767 --> 00:14:20,807 Speaker 2: but also receiving care as a privilege. One of the 281 00:14:20,807 --> 00:14:23,327 Speaker 2: brilliant examples she had about this, and it goes back 282 00:14:23,327 --> 00:14:25,287 Speaker 2: to the idea of why you don't ask the woman 283 00:14:25,327 --> 00:14:28,287 Speaker 2: who's doing the care work for insights, is, she said, 284 00:14:28,327 --> 00:14:31,807 Speaker 2: for all the sort of mindfulness programs people sign up for, 285 00:14:32,167 --> 00:14:35,167 Speaker 2: and you know they're searching for meaning in life, and 286 00:14:35,207 --> 00:14:37,567 Speaker 2: they're spending all this money to travel to far flung 287 00:14:37,607 --> 00:14:39,807 Speaker 2: places and do meditation workshops, all of which is very 288 00:14:39,847 --> 00:14:42,207 Speaker 2: worthy if that's what you're doing, she said, In some ways, 289 00:14:42,207 --> 00:14:47,887 Speaker 2: there is no more mindful and grounding and thoughtful exercise 290 00:14:47,927 --> 00:14:51,367 Speaker 2: than getting up to a baby through the night over 291 00:14:51,407 --> 00:14:54,367 Speaker 2: and over again, or a sick person and choosing kindness 292 00:14:54,407 --> 00:14:56,887 Speaker 2: and not anger and trying to be calm and doing 293 00:14:56,927 --> 00:14:58,527 Speaker 2: it over and over again. And that's the thing, as 294 00:14:58,607 --> 00:15:02,327 Speaker 2: Mia said before about the repetition of caring work, is 295 00:15:02,367 --> 00:15:06,007 Speaker 2: that choosing kindness over and over again. When you go 296 00:15:06,127 --> 00:15:09,487 Speaker 2: and unlock your elderly mother's front door and you don't 297 00:15:09,487 --> 00:15:11,047 Speaker 2: know what you're going to find there, and you don't 298 00:15:11,087 --> 00:15:12,727 Speaker 2: know what kind of mental state they're going to be 299 00:15:12,767 --> 00:15:14,247 Speaker 2: in and what you might have to do to calm 300 00:15:14,287 --> 00:15:18,647 Speaker 2: them down. Over and over and over again. You are 301 00:15:18,767 --> 00:15:22,407 Speaker 2: learning so much. And that sounds patronizing, as if like 302 00:15:22,527 --> 00:15:25,207 Speaker 2: go you like you don't need any rewarding because you're 303 00:15:25,247 --> 00:15:28,127 Speaker 2: But it's just so true that we don't value it. 304 00:15:28,127 --> 00:15:30,047 Speaker 2: It's so true when it's actually very deep. 305 00:15:30,127 --> 00:15:32,087 Speaker 1: Well, you know how you said you don't think you're 306 00:15:32,127 --> 00:15:36,207 Speaker 1: a very nurturing person, and I actually think I am 307 00:15:36,247 --> 00:15:40,447 Speaker 1: the same, to my great shame, or I'm conditionally nurturing. 308 00:15:40,567 --> 00:15:43,807 Speaker 1: Do you think it's because we're more selfish than people 309 00:15:44,487 --> 00:15:48,447 Speaker 1: like Jesse's aren't. Yes, no, I don't think. 310 00:15:49,407 --> 00:15:51,687 Speaker 3: I think that you're both very caring. But the people 311 00:15:51,687 --> 00:15:54,887 Speaker 3: in my life who struggle with nurturing is it nurturing 312 00:15:54,967 --> 00:15:57,607 Speaker 3: takes an enormous amount of patience, And I think that's 313 00:15:57,767 --> 00:16:02,207 Speaker 3: some people. They're fucking impatience. It's like this keeps going, 314 00:16:02,647 --> 00:16:03,887 Speaker 3: like when it's. 315 00:16:03,727 --> 00:16:06,127 Speaker 2: Like I will do anything for anyone that I love, 316 00:16:06,167 --> 00:16:08,847 Speaker 2: of course, and you know when crisis brings something to 317 00:16:08,887 --> 00:16:11,607 Speaker 2: your door, you will handle it, and of course she will. 318 00:16:11,647 --> 00:16:13,127 Speaker 2: So I don't mean that I'm not nurturing, has it 319 00:16:13,167 --> 00:16:13,647 Speaker 2: I'd be like. 320 00:16:14,007 --> 00:16:16,727 Speaker 1: You know, the caring you're talking about here is over 321 00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:19,407 Speaker 1: a long period of time. It's endurance caring, essentially. 322 00:16:19,527 --> 00:16:21,767 Speaker 2: And I when I say I'm not I don't think 323 00:16:21,807 --> 00:16:24,927 Speaker 2: I'm instinctively nurturing. Is that I know people. I have 324 00:16:25,007 --> 00:16:28,607 Speaker 2: people in my life who are exceptionally good at caring. 325 00:16:29,087 --> 00:16:31,207 Speaker 2: I just know that I'm not. I think it probably 326 00:16:31,207 --> 00:16:33,407 Speaker 2: is because I'm quite selfish and I don't know. 327 00:16:33,367 --> 00:16:37,327 Speaker 3: What It's also true a bit of a muscle, right, 328 00:16:37,687 --> 00:16:39,447 Speaker 3: And this is what they were trying to say, is 329 00:16:39,447 --> 00:16:43,967 Speaker 3: that it's like it can take a while to get 330 00:16:43,967 --> 00:16:46,927 Speaker 3: into that grooven, like any skill. I suppose in a 331 00:16:46,927 --> 00:16:49,767 Speaker 3: way I was thinking about growing up, I lived with 332 00:16:49,847 --> 00:16:52,767 Speaker 3: my grandmother who had a stroke and she was blind, 333 00:16:52,807 --> 00:16:54,567 Speaker 3: and I lived with her for a lot of years, 334 00:16:54,887 --> 00:16:57,447 Speaker 3: and some of my first memories are, and this is 335 00:16:57,607 --> 00:17:00,767 Speaker 3: not recommended. Alcohol companies will get to me, but I 336 00:17:00,807 --> 00:17:03,247 Speaker 3: would get like her scotch and soda and give it 337 00:17:03,247 --> 00:17:05,367 Speaker 3: to her at five o'clock every like just little jobs 338 00:17:05,367 --> 00:17:08,367 Speaker 3: like that, and like get her dessert for her and 339 00:17:08,687 --> 00:17:10,567 Speaker 3: come and sit and read to her or whatever. 340 00:17:11,047 --> 00:17:14,607 Speaker 1: I think that is an incredible lesson because I think 341 00:17:14,647 --> 00:17:17,767 Speaker 1: that one of the things we struggle with particularly in 342 00:17:17,847 --> 00:17:21,927 Speaker 1: this generation where helicopter parenting is the default is children 343 00:17:21,927 --> 00:17:23,607 Speaker 1: and young people thinking that they're the center of the 344 00:17:23,647 --> 00:17:26,927 Speaker 1: world and not ever putting anyone else's needs above their own, 345 00:17:27,007 --> 00:17:31,327 Speaker 1: because I don't think children instinctively want to do that, 346 00:17:31,407 --> 00:17:33,247 Speaker 1: like dot you want to go and play outside? Or 347 00:17:33,287 --> 00:17:34,447 Speaker 1: do you want to sit with grandma? 348 00:17:34,687 --> 00:17:37,807 Speaker 3: And I never saw it as caring. I always saw 349 00:17:37,807 --> 00:17:41,767 Speaker 3: it as my relationship, which I got enormous amount back. 350 00:17:41,807 --> 00:17:44,047 Speaker 3: We would sit there, we would watch Doctor Phil, we'd 351 00:17:44,047 --> 00:17:46,327 Speaker 3: play Sale of the Century. She does trivia and we'd play. 352 00:17:46,407 --> 00:17:47,287 Speaker 1: So there was stuff in it. 353 00:17:47,327 --> 00:17:49,167 Speaker 3: I thought I was playing with my Nan, But I 354 00:17:49,247 --> 00:17:51,567 Speaker 3: look back on it now and I was caring. There 355 00:17:51,647 --> 00:17:53,887 Speaker 3: was an element of caring, And I wonder if. 356 00:17:53,767 --> 00:17:57,207 Speaker 2: And also giving respite to your mom or RUNTI or whatever. 357 00:17:57,087 --> 00:17:59,807 Speaker 3: Was And I also I knew I was doing a 358 00:17:59,847 --> 00:18:02,007 Speaker 3: good thing when you do something for you in that 359 00:18:02,167 --> 00:18:03,927 Speaker 3: like she struggled to put her bra on, she couldn't 360 00:18:03,927 --> 00:18:05,367 Speaker 3: put it, so I'd help Nan put her bra on, 361 00:18:05,487 --> 00:18:07,607 Speaker 3: or I'd help her in the shower or whatever. You 362 00:18:07,687 --> 00:18:10,967 Speaker 3: walk away feeling pretty in saying that I was a 363 00:18:11,007 --> 00:18:12,967 Speaker 3: child and it wasn't my full time job, but there 364 00:18:13,007 --> 00:18:17,047 Speaker 3: were moments where I think now to looking after lunar, 365 00:18:17,327 --> 00:18:20,687 Speaker 3: and I've found it very difficult to explain what the 366 00:18:20,767 --> 00:18:25,607 Speaker 3: satisfaction feels like amongst the mundane, and that's what it is. 367 00:18:25,807 --> 00:18:28,447 Speaker 3: It's one of the best things for my self worth. Yes, 368 00:18:28,527 --> 00:18:30,287 Speaker 3: have been moments of caring. 369 00:18:30,607 --> 00:18:33,447 Speaker 1: I'm just reading this week, funnily enough, about one of 370 00:18:33,487 --> 00:18:39,087 Speaker 1: the most powerful ways to deepen your relationship with someone 371 00:18:39,567 --> 00:18:42,607 Speaker 1: is to ask them to do you a favor, Which 372 00:18:42,647 --> 00:18:44,767 Speaker 1: is counterintuitive, right, because you would have think that to 373 00:18:44,887 --> 00:18:47,607 Speaker 1: offer someone a favor is how you have connection with them. 374 00:18:47,847 --> 00:18:50,887 Speaker 1: But there's something about the intimacy of someone asking you 375 00:18:50,927 --> 00:18:53,407 Speaker 1: to do a favor. I know I feel that way. 376 00:18:53,447 --> 00:18:55,447 Speaker 1: If someone asked me to do a favor, you feel 377 00:18:55,487 --> 00:18:57,847 Speaker 1: like I'm so close to them, and I do feel 378 00:18:57,847 --> 00:18:58,887 Speaker 1: like privileged. 379 00:18:59,287 --> 00:19:01,607 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, agree, And that's your brain going, if I'm 380 00:19:01,607 --> 00:19:03,487 Speaker 3: doing you a favor, I must really like you. 381 00:19:03,567 --> 00:19:05,727 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I get a lot of status from feeling 382 00:19:05,767 --> 00:19:08,167 Speaker 1: like I'm helping. But that tends to be a fairly 383 00:19:08,207 --> 00:19:08,927 Speaker 1: short term thing. 384 00:19:09,567 --> 00:19:13,407 Speaker 2: Can I throw a curly penundrum at you? So? On 385 00:19:13,647 --> 00:19:15,487 Speaker 2: the episode of mayde we launched this week, I was 386 00:19:15,527 --> 00:19:18,087 Speaker 2: talking to this woman called Leslie Morgan there's episode's about sex, 387 00:19:18,087 --> 00:19:19,767 Speaker 2: and it's great, but that's not what this is about. 388 00:19:19,807 --> 00:19:23,127 Speaker 2: She's fifty nine and she is adamant that she doesn't 389 00:19:23,167 --> 00:19:25,847 Speaker 2: want to repartner after her divorce, and she's had lots 390 00:19:25,887 --> 00:19:29,007 Speaker 2: of relationships, and she said that what everybody asks her 391 00:19:29,367 --> 00:19:31,887 Speaker 2: is isn't she afraid of dying alone? And I want 392 00:19:31,927 --> 00:19:33,487 Speaker 2: to play you this and see what you think. 393 00:19:33,687 --> 00:19:36,727 Speaker 4: People always say to me, aren't you afraid? You know 394 00:19:36,767 --> 00:19:38,727 Speaker 4: you're going to die alone? And what I have to 395 00:19:38,767 --> 00:19:41,087 Speaker 4: say is, you know what. We are all going to 396 00:19:41,167 --> 00:19:43,847 Speaker 4: die alone. We are all going to die alone. Everybody 397 00:19:43,887 --> 00:19:47,087 Speaker 4: knows this. And have you met a man who is 398 00:19:47,207 --> 00:19:50,207 Speaker 4: capable of taking care of a woman, a dying woman, 399 00:19:50,287 --> 00:19:53,607 Speaker 4: an aged woman, Older men. They don't put in their 400 00:19:53,607 --> 00:19:56,887 Speaker 4: hearing aids. They're terrible at advocating for anybody. They don't 401 00:19:56,967 --> 00:19:59,327 Speaker 4: like hospitals, they don't like this. There's no way on 402 00:19:59,367 --> 00:20:00,847 Speaker 4: earth a man is going to take care of us. 403 00:20:00,927 --> 00:20:03,567 Speaker 4: I'm sorry to tell everybody listening to it, but I'm 404 00:20:03,607 --> 00:20:06,127 Speaker 4: actually happy to tell you this because it's true. You're 405 00:20:06,167 --> 00:20:08,287 Speaker 4: going to take care of you, and the people are 406 00:20:08,327 --> 00:20:10,167 Speaker 4: going to be there for you. Are your best friends, 407 00:20:10,567 --> 00:20:13,887 Speaker 4: male and female. The healthcare system, and your children, if 408 00:20:13,927 --> 00:20:16,007 Speaker 4: you have them, that's just going to take care of you. 409 00:20:16,047 --> 00:20:18,087 Speaker 4: It's not going to be a man. There's no happily 410 00:20:18,087 --> 00:20:21,727 Speaker 4: ever after it. And men think that women are going 411 00:20:21,807 --> 00:20:24,207 Speaker 4: to take care of them, and they're rape because we've 412 00:20:24,247 --> 00:20:26,247 Speaker 4: been conditioned our whole life to do it. I'm not 413 00:20:26,287 --> 00:20:27,687 Speaker 4: going to do it, and I would urge you to 414 00:20:27,727 --> 00:20:29,167 Speaker 4: think about not doing it, because there are a lot 415 00:20:29,207 --> 00:20:31,127 Speaker 4: better things to do with your life than take care 416 00:20:31,167 --> 00:20:33,487 Speaker 4: of a man who would never take care of you anyway. 417 00:20:33,647 --> 00:20:36,287 Speaker 2: So that has pissed a few people off this statement. 418 00:20:36,687 --> 00:20:37,767 Speaker 2: I want to know what you think. 419 00:20:38,167 --> 00:20:41,967 Speaker 3: I would argue that men, I would like to do 420 00:20:42,007 --> 00:20:46,287 Speaker 3: a study that looked at men who spent a lot 421 00:20:46,327 --> 00:20:50,687 Speaker 3: of time with infant children and men who care for 422 00:20:50,887 --> 00:20:54,647 Speaker 3: elderly or sick or their spouse. I would like to 423 00:20:54,687 --> 00:20:56,807 Speaker 3: look at that ven diagram. I think that if you 424 00:20:56,807 --> 00:20:59,647 Speaker 3: are eighty years old and you're a man and your 425 00:20:59,767 --> 00:21:02,647 Speaker 3: wife becomes sick, I actually don't think you have any 426 00:21:02,687 --> 00:21:05,807 Speaker 3: skill set. You don't have any blueprint for what it 427 00:21:05,847 --> 00:21:08,127 Speaker 3: looks like to care for someone. And this is an 428 00:21:08,287 --> 00:21:09,367 Speaker 3: enormous generalizedation. 429 00:21:09,607 --> 00:21:12,687 Speaker 1: Oh, my grandfather cared for my grandmother, My friend's father 430 00:21:12,767 --> 00:21:16,407 Speaker 1: cared for her mother. I've seen it play out, definitely, 431 00:21:16,447 --> 00:21:17,487 Speaker 1: I've seen it play out. 432 00:21:17,727 --> 00:21:22,647 Speaker 3: I understand where the idea is coming from. Also, women 433 00:21:22,687 --> 00:21:24,767 Speaker 3: often live longer than men, so there's a lot of 434 00:21:24,807 --> 00:21:28,527 Speaker 3: women my Martin's less often exactly. My nan used to 435 00:21:28,567 --> 00:21:31,887 Speaker 3: say her husband was a war veteran who lost a 436 00:21:31,967 --> 00:21:35,607 Speaker 3: leg and was quite disabled, and she used to sit 437 00:21:35,647 --> 00:21:38,727 Speaker 3: there at you know, eighty and go, I'm shitty, he's 438 00:21:38,727 --> 00:21:40,607 Speaker 3: not here. He never got to give it back, like 439 00:21:40,847 --> 00:21:44,007 Speaker 3: he died before he could give the care back. 440 00:21:44,527 --> 00:21:44,767 Speaker 1: Yeah. 441 00:21:45,327 --> 00:21:47,607 Speaker 3: I know a lot of older women who feel like that. 442 00:21:47,687 --> 00:21:50,527 Speaker 3: But there was another great line in this that said, 443 00:21:50,927 --> 00:21:57,047 Speaker 3: ill disabled children, whatever it is, whatever context, they are 444 00:21:57,087 --> 00:22:00,807 Speaker 3: not welcome in neither are caregivers. And I thought that 445 00:22:00,967 --> 00:22:03,607 Speaker 3: is so true. That's what we've been trying to say about, 446 00:22:03,727 --> 00:22:06,647 Speaker 3: you know, public spaces being welcome to children. But you know, 447 00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:10,407 Speaker 3: I've seen it with disability with comments. Maybe it's someone 448 00:22:10,487 --> 00:22:13,207 Speaker 3: being noisy, and maybe it's someone in a cafe with 449 00:22:13,327 --> 00:22:17,127 Speaker 3: their kara who's you know, asking a hundred questions and 450 00:22:17,127 --> 00:22:19,767 Speaker 3: sitting a bit too close to you or whatever. That's 451 00:22:19,807 --> 00:22:22,407 Speaker 3: what the world looks like like. It's messy, and it's chaotic. 452 00:22:22,647 --> 00:22:25,167 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd I agree one hundred percent to Leslie's thing. 453 00:22:25,367 --> 00:22:28,767 Speaker 2: I think, Mia, Yes, we can all provide exceptions to 454 00:22:28,807 --> 00:22:31,567 Speaker 2: that rule, including in my family that my mother in 455 00:22:31,687 --> 00:22:33,807 Speaker 2: law lived out all her last years with one of 456 00:22:33,807 --> 00:22:37,167 Speaker 2: her sons. He absolutely views that as a privilege and 457 00:22:37,207 --> 00:22:38,767 Speaker 2: says it was a joy of his life to do it. 458 00:22:39,287 --> 00:22:42,727 Speaker 2: But the idea that when Leslie Morgan says so stridently, 459 00:22:43,167 --> 00:22:45,967 Speaker 2: a man isn't going to look after you. Obviously that's 460 00:22:45,967 --> 00:22:49,327 Speaker 2: a provocative statement, but what she means is they haven't 461 00:22:49,327 --> 00:22:52,527 Speaker 2: been conditioned to do that, to your point, Jesse, whereas 462 00:22:52,567 --> 00:22:55,167 Speaker 2: women have and just be like, well, this is my lot, now, 463 00:22:55,287 --> 00:22:57,127 Speaker 2: this is what my life looks like for as long 464 00:22:57,167 --> 00:23:00,687 Speaker 2: as we whereas men are possibly more likely to go 465 00:23:00,887 --> 00:23:03,287 Speaker 2: this isn't what I signed up for. And I think 466 00:23:03,327 --> 00:23:06,847 Speaker 2: it's really interesting your point, Jesse, because as we blur 467 00:23:07,087 --> 00:23:09,167 Speaker 2: the lines of what manhood looks like a woman who 468 00:23:09,367 --> 00:23:11,327 Speaker 2: looks like and who's allowed to care and who stays 469 00:23:11,367 --> 00:23:14,607 Speaker 2: home and who doesn't, maybe those who are best suited 470 00:23:14,647 --> 00:23:16,847 Speaker 2: to caring, it won't be so gender divided. 471 00:23:23,007 --> 00:23:25,487 Speaker 1: Mama, Mia, hell loud, Look. 472 00:23:25,287 --> 00:23:27,767 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed that out loud is remember If 473 00:23:27,767 --> 00:23:29,607 Speaker 2: you want to listen to more of our Hot Pod 474 00:23:29,607 --> 00:23:33,447 Speaker 2: Summer specially curated episodes, listen out for us wherever you 475 00:23:33,527 --> 00:23:36,167 Speaker 2: usually get your podcasts, and don't forget to subscribe to 476 00:23:36,247 --> 00:23:39,607 Speaker 2: mom a Mire to hear exclusive new subscriber content. There's 477 00:23:39,647 --> 00:23:41,647 Speaker 2: a link in the show notes so you don't ever 478 00:23:41,727 --> 00:23:45,007 Speaker 2: miss an episode. And a huge thank you to all 479 00:23:45,127 --> 00:23:46,367 Speaker 2: our current subscribers.