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Speaker 1: You're listening to a mom and me a podcast. Mama

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Speaker 1: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on this woman. She's been doing

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Speaker 1: this work and it's making her younger and younger, and

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Speaker 1: soon she's going to go back to because she's Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: And I was just like, I'm out, instantly, instantly.

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Speaker 2: From Mama May You're listening to no Filter And this

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Speaker 2: is the weirdest episode I've ever brought you.

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Speaker 1: I'm me a freedman. I should have said that, And

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Speaker 1: the guest today is kind of me. I've never spoken

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Speaker 1: about this before, and I didn't really mean to, I

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Speaker 1: guess because I'm a little bit ashamed. But let me

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Speaker 1: go back a little bit and give you context. A

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Speaker 1: few weeks ago I interviewed Bethany Joy Lentz, who who

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Speaker 1: was in One Tree Hill and that was a big

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Speaker 1: culty TV show. And at the same time she was

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Speaker 1: on this TV show and was famous all over the world,

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Speaker 1: she was in an actual cult, a religious, highly controlling cult,

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Speaker 1: which took her money, compromised her mental health. There was

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Speaker 1: abuse involved. It was a fascinating story and a harrowing

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Speaker 1: story at times. We'll put a link in the show notes,

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Speaker 1: so if you missed that, you can go listen to it.

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Speaker 1: But after we finished the interview, I was just doing

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Speaker 1: the outro and the end credits, and I casually mentioned

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Speaker 1: that I accidentally joined a cult one time, and my producer,

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Speaker 1: Nama Brown, this is why she's such an incredible producer,

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Speaker 1: she kind of said, wait, what can we talk about that?

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Speaker 1: Can we keep the mics running? And we did, and

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Speaker 1: I really didn't want to overshadow. I couldn't overshadow Bethany

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Speaker 1: joy Lens the story because my experience was nothing like hers,

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Speaker 1: and it was a much milder version and her story

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Speaker 1: stands alone. But I didn't want to detract from it anyway.

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Speaker 1: I sat on it for a few weeks and I thought,

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Speaker 1: do I want to put this out there? Do I

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Speaker 1: not want to put this out there? And I used

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Speaker 1: the same filter that I always use when talking about

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Speaker 1: something personal and for choosing guests for this show, and

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Speaker 1: that is, there's someone out there who's wound is in

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Speaker 1: the shape of your words. And more than that, there's

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Speaker 1: someone out there who hasn't got the wound yet. Not

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Speaker 1: to torture an analogy, but there's someone out there who

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Speaker 1: will get this wound one day and she will look

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Speaker 1: back and think about your words and they will help

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Speaker 1: soothe her wound. If anyone's still listening, I did decide

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Speaker 1: that I would share that story. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: play you now the conversation I had with Nie, who

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Speaker 1: is the executive producer of this show and a very trusted,

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Speaker 1: skilled interviewer. Actually, it's weird for me to be on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the microphone, but there we go.

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Speaker 1: So let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Lay the scene from me. Where were you in your

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Speaker 3: life when you encountered this great question?

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Speaker 1: So I was in my probably late twenties early thirties.

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Speaker 1: I had one child. I had lost a baby halfway

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Speaker 1: through my second pregnancy, and very soon after that, a

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Speaker 1: few months after that, my marriage to the father of

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Speaker 1: both of those children ended and we separated, and it

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Speaker 1: was a time of I was the editor of Cosmo

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Speaker 1: at the time, so I had this big job, but

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Speaker 1: I was a single mum for a few years. And

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Speaker 1: then through that time I was seeing a therapist who

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Speaker 1: was a great therapist, and she used kinesiology as part

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Speaker 1: of her you know therapy that like the touch kind

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Speaker 1: of anesiology is kind of like that book The body

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Speaker 1: knows the course, so it's sort of like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to mangle it and forgive me. But it's when you

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Speaker 1: push up on someone's hand and they sort of do things,

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Speaker 1: and it's sort of meant to cut bypass your conscious

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Speaker 1: and sort of go to what is actually true.

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Speaker 3: So asking she was asking your body questions, yes, brain exactly,

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Speaker 3: and I'd gone to, you know, I'm this very interesting.

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Speaker 1: I'm so interesting. I'm this weird mix of science and

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Speaker 1: woo woo, like I am vaccinations, science up the wazoo, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, give me the prescription medication. I love all

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Speaker 1: of that. I love an antibiotic. But then there's also

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Speaker 1: a kind of spiritual side of me, which you know,

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Speaker 1: is interested in my intuition and energy and all of

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Speaker 1: those kinds of things. I'm quite sensitive to energy. If

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Speaker 1: I'm around people who are on drugs, I can pick

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Speaker 1: up their energy and I don't like the feeling of it.

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Speaker 1: So i'd been to a natural path or ostive homopath whatever,

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Speaker 1: who'd use kinesiology before to treat medical things. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember what they were, And again I would never have

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Speaker 1: used that instead of traditional medicine. But I was just

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Speaker 1: sort of open to it, and I'm like, what's the harm, Like,

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Speaker 1: what's the harm? So I'd encountered kinesiology before, and so

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Speaker 1: I found it helpful in therapy, where sometimes I just

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Speaker 1: found it it would be a bit of a shortcut

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Speaker 1: where you know, sometimes when it's talk therapy, you say something,

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Speaker 1: but it takes you a long time to get to

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Speaker 1: what you actually feel or and so I just found

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Speaker 1: it helpful. So anyway, then there was something going on

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Speaker 1: where I got back together with my husband and we

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Speaker 1: started trying for another baby, and I was struggling and

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't get pregnant. I was struggling with what's

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Speaker 1: called secondary in fertility, which is when you've had one

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Speaker 1: live birth but then you can't get pregnant again. And

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Speaker 1: I was just feeling so messed up. And so my

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Speaker 1: therapist suggested that I go and see her kinesiology teacher

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Speaker 1: and for like a high level extra sort of you

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Speaker 1: got bumped leering. I got bumped up right, and so

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Speaker 1: I was like, I was really vulnerable because I felt desperate.

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Speaker 1: I felt like my body didn't work. I felt like

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Speaker 1: I was failing in every way. And so she sent

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Speaker 1: me to this woman who was like really interesting. She

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Speaker 1: just operated like out of a house in her suburb,

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Speaker 1: and she had this quite fancy house, and she had

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Speaker 1: this sort of sidekick and she did this energy clearing

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Speaker 1: and it was like, you know, this is this energy

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Speaker 1: that's been put on you all these years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to clear it. And part of me was like,

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Speaker 1: are you though, like whether it's a placebo I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Had you ever done anything like that before, like to

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Speaker 3: that degree.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess I had. I don't go to I've

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Speaker 1: never been to a fortune tell her a tarre card,

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Speaker 1: So in that way, I don't do any of that.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of energy, I think because I can

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Speaker 1: feel energy in me, I'm open to the idea of

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Speaker 1: having it cleared. And because in my therapy sometimes she

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Speaker 1: would sort of clear energy. We hold other people's stuff, right, like,

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Speaker 1: we all know what that's like. So I believed in that.

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Speaker 1: But then this sort of went to a bit of

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Speaker 1: another level where it was like this thing happened in

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Speaker 1: seventeen and it sounds so embarrassing to even say, because

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Speaker 1: like how awkward, Like that was obviously just crazy, and

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Speaker 1: then you have to pay all this money and one

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Speaker 1: time her credit card facilities weren't working, so you had

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Speaker 1: to pay cash, and it was like.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't actually sound crazy to me, though, okay, good,

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Speaker 3: I mean it feels it's the intersection of the vulnerability

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Speaker 3: that you've described because of where you were in your life,

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Speaker 3: but also a lot of those as you say that,

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Speaker 3: that kind of mix of science and wu wu, sometimes

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Speaker 3: the science doesn't have what you need in that moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess what I needed was hope, and I

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Speaker 1: needed to feel like I was doing something like I was.

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Speaker 1: You can't prescribe hope to you, yeah, exactly, and I wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I liked the idea that maybe, like how could it hurt?

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Speaker 1: Like it could only help. But I was desperate. I

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Speaker 1: was vulnerable, and I was desperate. And there's a particular

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Speaker 1: kind of crazed mental state of infertility that you just

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Speaker 1: aren't entirely rational, or I certainly I wasn't. And so

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Speaker 1: then I decided that I was going to do this

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Speaker 1: kinesiology course that this woman took, and so it was

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Speaker 1: a weekend sort of workshop and I went to do it,

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Speaker 1: and as part of it, she then was a medium

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Speaker 1: and spoke. This just sounds so weird, but she kind

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Speaker 1: of went into this trance and spoke Saint Jude or

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Speaker 1: there was some spirit that came through her, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know. And then there were just so many kind

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Speaker 1: of little red flags, like you could pay to do

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Speaker 1: the course for someone else. So there were people there

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Speaker 1: who'd been there multiple times, they'd done it for them,

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Speaker 1: and now they were doing it for their son or

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Speaker 1: their mother or their partner who maybe didn't believe, but

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Speaker 1: they believed that this energy clearing course or this kinesiology course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just got. And then this group would meet every

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Speaker 1: so often, and I remember when bird flu went around,

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Speaker 1: we all went and paid and she did this sort

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Speaker 1: of energy clearing so that we wouldn't get SARS. It's

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Speaker 1: pre COVID. And it just became because I was trying,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if I was actually pregnant by

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Speaker 1: this stage. It then became well, I've been doing it.

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Speaker 1: If I stop doing it, what if I lose this pregnancy?

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Speaker 3: Magical thinking?

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Speaker 1: Magical thinking. And I've got a friend who would also

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Speaker 1: experience infertility. And she had some kind of crystal that

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Speaker 1: someone had given her and she attached it to her arm,

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Speaker 1: and she then became very superstitious, and she had to

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Speaker 1: wear this crystal for her entire pregnancy because it does

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Speaker 1: become this magical thinking, right.

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Speaker 3: And it's not worth fucking with the idea. You might

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Speaker 3: be wrong, but it's what's the value? Yeah, and changing

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Speaker 3: course if suddenly you feel like you're heading in the

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Speaker 3: direction you want to be.

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Speaker 1: On, yeah, exactly, And so that everything that good happens

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Speaker 1: you credit to this thing that you're doing, and everything

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Speaker 1: that bad happens, it's maybe because you're not doing it enough.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask how much that can? You might remember

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Speaker 3: exactly how much? But was it costly?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I reckon it was a couple of thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: And my other question is did she know who you

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Speaker 3: were that you you know, were a high level, very

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Speaker 3: successful executive woman who had a bit of influence. And

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Speaker 3: I ask this because you look at something like scientology,

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Speaker 3: right and how they need They've got their minions, their legions,

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Speaker 3: but they need their Tom Cruisers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so was it.

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Speaker 3: This idea that you had them the tom Cruise of

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Speaker 3: the kinesiology.

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Speaker 1: We never spoke about it, so if that was the case,

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Speaker 1: she obviously I didn't hide what I did. It was

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Speaker 1: pre social media kind of pre internet almost, so you know,

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Speaker 1: I probably didn't have the same level of profile then

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Speaker 1: that I did now, but she knew who I was,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that came to bear when I

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Speaker 1: started to pull away. I think that they recognized that

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Speaker 1: she recognized that there was some danger. So it was

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Speaker 1: in this like church hall, and everyone would bring a

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Speaker 1: plate and it was like you had to say these

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Speaker 1: kind of prayers and stuff, and you know, I knew that,

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Speaker 1: Like my husband was like, but he didn't want to.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't costing us like a huge amount of money

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Speaker 1: at this stage, and I was so desperate and he

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Speaker 1: felt so inadequate to help me with these feelings that

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Speaker 1: I had around main fertility and the baby that i'd lost.

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Speaker 1: He kind of yeah, Luckily it didn't get to the

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Speaker 1: point where he had to intervene, But I don't know

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Speaker 1: how I would have felt if he had of, because

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Speaker 1: to me, I'd always been very superstitious. Fully enough, I

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Speaker 1: went through a whole thing of touching wood like I

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Speaker 1: would carry not at this time, but earlier in my life,

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Speaker 1: I would carry like a stick with me in the

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Speaker 1: car everywhere because I'd need to touch wood all the time

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Speaker 1: to prevent bad things happening.

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Speaker 3: And superstition in my experience, because I'm a bit saying

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Speaker 3: it's hand in hand with anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Ah yeah, right, because it.

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Speaker 3: Didn't you find, I mean something of it. What if

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Speaker 3: I forget my stick for that day and I.

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Speaker 1: Didn't know I had anxiety, then yeah, I didn't have

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Speaker 1: a name for it.

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Speaker 3: It was a substitute for what you've learned about yourself.

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Speaker 1: Since that's very true. That's very true. And so I

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Speaker 1: just know exactly the minute that it all came away

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Speaker 1: from me where I started going more regularly to these

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Speaker 1: group sessions. And I remember this one. It was on

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Speaker 1: a weekend and I was talking to and my therapist's

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Speaker 1: kids were there, and I was talking to this woman

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Speaker 1: in the lunch break and she was saying how the

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Speaker 1: kind of the leader. And this woman was quite charismatic,

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Speaker 1: and there was all the stuff around her. She was old,

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Speaker 1: like she was I shouldn't say that old. She looked

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Speaker 1: that much older than me now, but like she would

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Speaker 1: have been in her late sixties.

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Speaker 4: So gravitas experience, yeah, yeah, yeah, and she had this

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Speaker 4: sort of offsider who kind of you know, there was

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Speaker 4: all this Oh, she was kind of like a big deal,

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Speaker 4: and she was just like this small she just looks

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Speaker 4: up grandma, but she spoke and then she channeled this JUDEO.

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Speaker 1: I can't even remember who it was anymore anyway. So

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Speaker 1: I was talking to this person at lunch and she'd

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Speaker 1: sort of been around this for many years, and she said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the woman whose name I can't even remember. Actually I can,

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Speaker 1: but I won't say it. This woman she's been doing

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Speaker 1: this work and it's making her younger because all the

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Speaker 1: work she's doing, she's getting younger and younger, and soon

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Speaker 1: she's going to go back to because she's Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: And I was just like, I'm out, okay.

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Speaker 3: So my eyebrows just hit this and again.

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Speaker 1: And mine did too, and I was like, it just

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Speaker 1: popped a bubble for me, and I just went, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm out instantly, instantly, moment. And this woman was very earnest,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, this person is actually Jesus Christ, and

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Speaker 1: she's doing this processing work and all the time she's

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Speaker 1: doing it on herself, and she's getting younger and younger,

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Speaker 1: and haven't you noticed that she's looking younger and younger.

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Speaker 1: And the end result of this is that she's going

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Speaker 1: to be come Jesus Christ. And I just went, okay, bye,

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Speaker 1: and I left. I literally left. I didn't even go

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Speaker 1: back after night that moment. In that moment, I left.

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Speaker 1: And then what happened was that I talked to my therapist,

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Speaker 1: and again, this was all such a breach now that

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Speaker 1: I look back, and she was a great therapist, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I think she was in a cult, so

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Speaker 1: I think that she didn't know what she was doing.

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Speaker 1: But she said something to me when I told her

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't going anymore, and she was kind of

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Speaker 1: pressure me to go, and it was like, oh, if

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Speaker 1: you need this extra level of cleansing, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be like ten thousand dollars. And I also just knew, like,

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Speaker 1: that's just not a thing that I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: now talking about how the World family used this special

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Speaker 1: thing and they paid all this money to rehabilitate Camilla

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Speaker 1: in the eyes of the world, and that's why we

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Speaker 1: all love Camilla anyway, it all there were things that

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Speaker 1: kind of made sense but were all so completely preposterous,

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Speaker 1: so just enough to you go, oh, it does seem

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Speaker 1: weird that we all like Camilla now did that happen.

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Speaker 1: So this like just plausible credibility, just to wedge into

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Speaker 1: your logical mind just enough to get their foot in

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Speaker 1: the door and ask for some money. And I was

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Speaker 1: pregnant at the time, and I remember she said to

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Speaker 1: me something and I said, I'm just not going to

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Speaker 1: do it anymore. And she said something to me about

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Speaker 1: I can't remember her words, but I said to her,

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Speaker 1: that feels like a threat. I feel really uncomfortable you

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Speaker 1: saying that, because it was kind of implying that maybe

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Speaker 1: my pregnancy wouldn't hold if I didn't keep going back.

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Speaker 1: And she said, oh, no, I don't mean for it

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Speaker 1: to be that. And then she called me back and

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Speaker 1: she said, I spoke to Blah blah and said that

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Speaker 1: you weren't going to be coming anymore. And she said

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Speaker 1: to make it very clear that it wasn't a threat

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Speaker 1: and that so this message was passed back to me.

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Speaker 1: I think she got nervous. And back to your point

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Speaker 1: about did she know who I was, I think she

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Speaker 1: got nervous. And you know, I left that therapist and

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Speaker 1: I've not spoken to her. This was many many years ago, now,

301
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Speaker 1: like twenty years ago. The pregnancy did turn out. My

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Speaker 1: beautiful daughter's eighteen, and I've gone looking for these people,

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Speaker 1: like searched online because I've wondered just what's hacked here?

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Speaker 3: Or is there something that you want to go Do

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Speaker 3: you feel you have unfinished business with them in some way? No, like,

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Speaker 3: does a part of you want to ask this therapist

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Speaker 3: in some ways? Were you almost admitting that what you

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Speaker 3: offer doesn't work in a sense, because if she was interesting, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like what was the function for her?

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Speaker 1: It was more like calling in the big guns, like

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Speaker 1: calling in a specialist, like in a medical analogy.

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Speaker 3: Which makes you actually feel quite looked after it.

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Speaker 1: But it was completely unethical what she did, like completely unethical,

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Speaker 1: and part of me does want to go back and

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Speaker 1: say to her, Hey, you were an amazing therapist. You

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Speaker 1: helped me through one of the darkest times of my life.

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Speaker 1: My marriage had ended. I was deep in grief over

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Speaker 1: the loss of this baby. You helped me and my

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Speaker 1: husband find our way back to each other. Really, but

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Speaker 1: this thing that you did was incredibly unethical. But I

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Speaker 1: suspect she's still trapped in it.

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Speaker 3: I you know, it's such a tender and I think

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Speaker 3: maybe lifelong part of the vulnerability that we've heard when

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Speaker 3: we've had these conversations with other women who have been

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Speaker 3: through similar experiences where you come out the other side

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Speaker 3: of it and you realize you've been harmed, You realize

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Speaker 3: you can put language to what that was. You can

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Speaker 3: call it a culture, you can call it a high

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Speaker 3: demand organization, or what have you. And yet there were

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Speaker 3: gifts or there were benefits that you come out the

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Speaker 3: other side of it changed by that experience, and not

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Speaker 3: all of those changes were negative. If they were all negative,

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Speaker 3: they never would have roped you in to begin with.

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Speaker 3: It's like that's saying you don't join a cult, you

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Speaker 3: join a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't feel when I look back at

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Speaker 1: it now, I feel embarrassed. Why because it's like it's

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Speaker 1: embarrassing in the same way that I look back with embarrassment.

339
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Speaker 1: But when I was in an emotionally abusive relationship in

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Speaker 1: my very early twenties, I look back and I go,

341
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Speaker 1: who was that person who tolerated that? And who had

342
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Speaker 1: the blinkers on? How did I lose myself so much?

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of compassion for who I was

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Speaker 1: when I was part of this cult, because I was

345
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Speaker 1: so vulnerable and I was so desperate, and I would

346
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Speaker 1: have stood on one leg in a blizzard and you know,

347
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Speaker 1: recited sandscrit while drinking a cup of gravy upside down

348
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Speaker 1: if it would have let me deliver a healthy baby, like,

349
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Speaker 1: I would have done fucking anything. And so I have compassion.

350
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Speaker 1: But when you see that you've been scammed, and you

351
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Speaker 1: know you and I we've interviewed people on this show

352
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Speaker 1: who've been scammed, and it's kind of like you ignore

353
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Speaker 1: those little voices in your head, and those little voices,

354
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Speaker 1: your intuition is the sum total of every experience you've

355
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Speaker 1: had in your life. That's like your innate wisdom. And yeah,

356
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Speaker 1: I think when you ignore that, it's at your peril.

357
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Speaker 3: So embarrassment is the is the ignoring of that inner

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Speaker 3: guidance system that was hoisting those red flags and you

359
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Speaker 3: were going.

360
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like when you say it out loud, you just go,

361
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Speaker 1: oh my god, like how but.

362
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Speaker 3: I want to And this isn't to make you feel better,

363
00:20:33,485 --> 00:20:35,405
Speaker 3: although I hope it does because I can see.

364
00:20:35,165 --> 00:20:36,245
Speaker 1: That you always do it.

365
00:20:36,885 --> 00:20:41,445
Speaker 3: You know, all of the things you described that were

366
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Speaker 3: your suite of vulnerabilities YEA, combined with your work at

367
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Speaker 3: that time, and I know I keep coming back to that.

368
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Speaker 3: But the reason I do is that we often see

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Speaker 3: that the people who fall for scams, who find themselves

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Speaker 3: in cults, they are often highly professional, educated, accomplished.

371
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Speaker 1: Successful people.

372
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Speaker 3: And sometimes I wonder if this is a kind of

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Speaker 3: decision fatigue and there's this part of you.

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Speaker 1: There's a trailer.

375
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Speaker 3: Out now for a very I'm gonna say it, don't

376
00:21:15,885 --> 00:21:19,645
Speaker 3: fire me Saucy Nicole Kidman series where I think she

377
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Speaker 3: plays this like baby girl, baby girl.

378
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Speaker 1: Right, being a CEO means being a collaborator and a nurture.

379
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Speaker 1: Don't you have to be a woman. Everyone is just

380
00:21:29,285 --> 00:21:31,285
Speaker 1: waiting for me to buckle under the pressure. Is now

381
00:21:31,285 --> 00:21:33,405
Speaker 1: a guitar to introduce the interest?

382
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

383
00:21:36,725 --> 00:21:39,765
Speaker 1: Hey, how'd you get back? Dog? To calm down? I

384
00:21:39,805 --> 00:21:42,645
Speaker 1: gave it a cookie. You always have cookies on you?

385
00:21:42,725 --> 00:21:44,725
Speaker 1: Why do you want one?

386
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Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's going to have cult undertones.

387
00:21:47,485 --> 00:21:50,565
Speaker 3: Definitely probably gonna have some bad relationship undertones. But this

388
00:21:50,725 --> 00:21:54,645
Speaker 3: idea of like when you have so many decisions that

389
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Speaker 3: you have to make every single day.

390
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Speaker 1: Having to heal yourself.

391
00:22:00,445 --> 00:22:02,205
Speaker 3: Oh, it's a lot of work, and it's like if

392
00:22:02,245 --> 00:22:05,165
Speaker 3: you can outsource that, yeah, or give someone else some

393
00:22:05,245 --> 00:22:06,525
Speaker 3: choices to make for you.

394
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's a track that's actually true, true, And I

395
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Speaker 1: think the other thing is that no one thinks that

396
00:22:14,205 --> 00:22:16,325
Speaker 1: we all have this idea of the kind of person

397
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Speaker 1: who would get taken by a scam, the kind of

398
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Speaker 1: person who would get involved in a bad relationship, the

399
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Speaker 1: kind of person who would stay with someone who would

400
00:22:22,285 --> 00:22:23,845
Speaker 1: cheat on them, the kind of person who would stay

401
00:22:23,885 --> 00:22:27,525
Speaker 1: with someone who physically or emotionally or financially abused them,

402
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Speaker 1: the kind of person who would hire a male escort.

403
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Speaker 1: And what I love so much about this show is

404
00:22:32,965 --> 00:22:37,445
Speaker 1: having those stereotypes smashed and smashed and smashed and smashed,

405
00:22:38,445 --> 00:22:42,845
Speaker 1: because what I've learned about that idea of I didn't

406
00:22:42,845 --> 00:22:46,845
Speaker 1: make this up, but it's so informs the philosophy this

407
00:22:46,925 --> 00:22:48,965
Speaker 1: show is that out there there's someone with the wound

408
00:22:49,005 --> 00:22:51,885
Speaker 1: in the shape of your words. And that's about when

409
00:22:51,885 --> 00:22:55,685
Speaker 1: we share our stories, someone else goes, oh me too,

410
00:22:55,845 --> 00:22:59,325
Speaker 1: and maybe it helps them recognize something like when I

411
00:22:59,365 --> 00:23:02,725
Speaker 1: was in an emotionally abusive relationship, I wish I'd have

412
00:23:02,765 --> 00:23:06,525
Speaker 1: been able to read someone else's story, and reading about

413
00:23:06,725 --> 00:23:10,285
Speaker 1: someone who had ADHD is what me to be diagnosed,

414
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Speaker 1: and all of these things, and when we interviewed the

415
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Speaker 1: woman who was scammed, Charlotte Cowell's Charlotte Cowells, who was

416
00:23:16,605 --> 00:23:18,685
Speaker 1: amazing and so brave to say that because she was

417
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Speaker 1: a financial writer, and how mortifying for her to have

418
00:23:22,205 --> 00:23:24,885
Speaker 1: had that happened to her. But one of the things

419
00:23:24,925 --> 00:23:27,725
Speaker 1: that these people rely on is that it's not how

420
00:23:27,765 --> 00:23:32,565
Speaker 1: you think it's going to be, and anyone nothing protects you. No,

421
00:23:33,085 --> 00:23:37,765
Speaker 1: not education, not loved ones, not a fancy university degree.

422
00:23:38,285 --> 00:23:41,085
Speaker 1: What protects you is hearing other stories.

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Speaker 3: And it's the only deformation said that. I think that

424
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Speaker 3: you know that there were people who were mid scam,

425
00:23:47,645 --> 00:23:49,965
Speaker 3: you know they were signing the check so to speak,

426
00:23:50,605 --> 00:23:53,365
Speaker 3: and heard her story or read her story, and that.

427
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Speaker 1: We've had people contact us since that episode came out

428
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Speaker 1: saying I got a call from Amazon and it wasn't Amazon,

429
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Speaker 1: it was this scam and had I not listened to

430
00:24:00,565 --> 00:24:04,005
Speaker 1: your episode, it might have happened to me. And that's

431
00:24:04,045 --> 00:24:08,005
Speaker 1: why I think it's just so important for women to

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Speaker 1: share well for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Such a nice point. Do you feel in this moment

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00:24:14,605 --> 00:24:18,045
Speaker 3: ever so slightly less ashamed embarrassed even than he did

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00:24:18,045 --> 00:24:21,405
Speaker 3: twenty minutes ago? Is there something cathartic even in the telling.

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00:24:21,885 --> 00:24:26,405
Speaker 1: Yes, because I'm actually never Apart from my husband, who

437
00:24:26,445 --> 00:24:28,325
Speaker 1: saw it happen at the time and we sort of

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00:24:28,365 --> 00:24:31,645
Speaker 1: haven't ever really talked about it, he was actually we

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00:24:31,725 --> 00:24:33,165
Speaker 1: have a bit, and he was just like, oh, from

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00:24:33,205 --> 00:24:35,485
Speaker 1: the second I knew that this was just such crap.

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Speaker 3: And what he just knew he had to let you

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Speaker 3: run your kind of thing.

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00:24:38,045 --> 00:24:39,845
Speaker 1: He didn't know how to help me, and if this

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00:24:39,925 --> 00:24:45,125
Speaker 1: seemed to be helping me, he luckily I got myself

445
00:24:45,165 --> 00:24:47,285
Speaker 1: out of it and he didn't have to intervene. And

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00:24:47,365 --> 00:24:48,725
Speaker 1: I think if I'd have said, hey, I want to

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00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:51,925
Speaker 1: transfer ten thousand dollars, he certainly wouldn't have been a

448
00:24:51,925 --> 00:24:55,365
Speaker 1: conversation gone that far. But while it wasn't impacting on

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00:24:55,405 --> 00:24:59,045
Speaker 1: our lives to a really detrimental extent, he was able

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00:24:59,085 --> 00:25:01,405
Speaker 1: to just let me go on this journey in the

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00:25:01,445 --> 00:25:04,805
Speaker 1: hope that it might make me feel better. But I've

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Speaker 1: never told anyone. I've never told anyone.

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00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:09,525
Speaker 3: So telling us the no Filters.

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Speaker 1: Filters, if you have maybe had an experience like this,

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00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:16,405
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. We'll put a link

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00:25:16,405 --> 00:25:20,325
Speaker 1: in our show notes to our email and sending love

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00:25:20,365 --> 00:25:24,405
Speaker 1: to everybody out there who's going through anything tricky. Life

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00:25:24,445 --> 00:25:27,205
Speaker 1: isn't easy, but you know it's easier when we do

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Speaker 1: it together.

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Speaker 3: It is. I've one more question for you, though, When

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00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:32,925
Speaker 3: was the first time you were able to.

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Speaker 1: Laugh at it? Well, now I'm laughing at it, I think,

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00:25:37,525 --> 00:25:40,405
Speaker 1: I kind of I think now, I think you can't

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00:25:40,845 --> 00:25:44,405
Speaker 1: when you're ashamed of something or embarrassed. It's easier to

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00:25:44,485 --> 00:25:48,485
Speaker 1: laugh when you're embarrassed. Shame does not allow laughter. And

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Speaker 1: I think you need a lot of perspective and a

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00:25:50,925 --> 00:25:54,885
Speaker 1: lot of years to laugh at something. And I think

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00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:57,805
Speaker 1: the reason I can laugh about it now is because

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00:25:57,845 --> 00:26:00,525
Speaker 1: I did go on to have a healthy baby. And

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Speaker 1: I think perhaps if I hadn't, I might have felt

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00:26:05,485 --> 00:26:08,325
Speaker 1: very differently about this experience. I think I might have.

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00:26:09,725 --> 00:26:11,765
Speaker 1: I don't. I can't even imagine how I would have

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00:26:11,845 --> 00:26:14,285
Speaker 1: processed this experience or what I would have filed it under.

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00:26:14,405 --> 00:26:17,005
Speaker 3: You know, or you might have stayed, you might have

475
00:26:17,045 --> 00:26:19,765
Speaker 3: gone back. It would have maybe been a way that

476
00:26:19,805 --> 00:26:22,845
Speaker 3: they proved something to you about their power. Things get

477
00:26:22,925 --> 00:26:23,965
Speaker 3: very dangerous.

478
00:26:23,605 --> 00:26:27,685
Speaker 1: Correct, And so I was so relieved when, for so

479
00:26:27,725 --> 00:26:30,485
Speaker 1: many reasons, when she was born, but that i'd cut

480
00:26:30,525 --> 00:26:33,725
Speaker 1: it off before, because then maybe I would have thought

481
00:26:33,725 --> 00:26:36,645
Speaker 1: that I have to stay to keep her safe or

482
00:26:36,845 --> 00:26:38,965
Speaker 1: for my next pregnancy. And yes, I went on to

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00:26:38,965 --> 00:26:42,765
Speaker 1: have another baby after that. So the dim mystifying takes time,

484
00:26:43,365 --> 00:26:47,725
Speaker 1: and I think it's only through as we heard with Joy,

485
00:26:48,245 --> 00:26:51,965
Speaker 1: it's only through time passing and you're seeing that the

486
00:26:52,045 --> 00:26:55,485
Speaker 1: things that they made you scared about did not come

487
00:26:55,485 --> 00:26:56,405
Speaker 1: to pass.

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00:26:56,765 --> 00:26:59,845
Speaker 3: You have to almost accrue data, yes, you have to

489
00:26:59,925 --> 00:27:05,165
Speaker 3: keep testing a new theory. Yes, and then eventually it

490
00:27:05,245 --> 00:27:07,685
Speaker 3: just outweighs exactly.

491
00:27:13,165 --> 00:27:15,845
Speaker 1: Well, there you go. That wasn't so hard, was it.

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00:27:15,885 --> 00:27:19,485
Speaker 1: In fact, it did remind me listening to that back again.

493
00:27:19,525 --> 00:27:22,125
Speaker 1: Why so many other people do share their stories with

494
00:27:22,165 --> 00:27:26,885
Speaker 1: me on no filter, Because telling our stories is cathartic,

495
00:27:26,925 --> 00:27:30,445
Speaker 1: particularly if it's about something that you feel some shame

496
00:27:30,605 --> 00:27:35,725
Speaker 1: or embarrassment over. They say that the best disinfectant is sunlight,

497
00:27:36,285 --> 00:27:40,405
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm a little bit more forgiving of

498
00:27:40,485 --> 00:27:44,125
Speaker 1: myself now I understand exactly how it happened, and I'm

499
00:27:44,125 --> 00:27:46,485
Speaker 1: not ashamed. It's just kind of this. I sort of

500
00:27:46,485 --> 00:27:49,805
Speaker 1: have filed it under this weird thing that happened to

501
00:27:49,845 --> 00:27:53,405
Speaker 1: me this one time. Anyway, So if you want to

502
00:27:53,445 --> 00:27:55,725
Speaker 1: listen to the story that nine I talked about earlier

503
00:27:56,005 --> 00:27:59,805
Speaker 1: about Charlotte Cow's who fell for a financial scam and

504
00:28:01,325 --> 00:28:03,965
Speaker 1: ended up giving I think it was like fifty five

505
00:28:04,005 --> 00:28:08,245
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to a stranger. She pushed through the enormous

506
00:28:08,245 --> 00:28:11,165
Speaker 1: shame that she felt to share her story so that

507
00:28:11,285 --> 00:28:14,205
Speaker 1: others might not have to go through what she went through,

508
00:28:14,445 --> 00:28:16,325
Speaker 1: And we'll put a link to that in the show notes,

509
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:19,525
Speaker 1: and we will also link to some more stories from

510
00:28:19,525 --> 00:28:23,125
Speaker 1: incredible women who actually did get stuck for years in abusive,

511
00:28:23,205 --> 00:28:28,325
Speaker 1: high control cults, usually religious cults, and they eventually made

512
00:28:28,325 --> 00:28:30,325
Speaker 1: it out the other side, which just takes so much

513
00:28:30,365 --> 00:28:35,325
Speaker 1: courage and strength, women like Tea Leving's and Darsy Erleck.

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00:28:35,605 --> 00:28:39,245
Speaker 1: The executive producer of No Filter is Niama Brown. You've

515
00:28:39,245 --> 00:28:41,805
Speaker 1: probably guessed that she's a bit obsessed with stories about

516
00:28:41,805 --> 00:28:46,605
Speaker 1: cults and charismatic leaders. I wonder why maybe she will

517
00:28:46,605 --> 00:28:49,125
Speaker 1: be one one day. No, she's too nice for that.

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Speaker 1: Audio production and sound design is by Tom Lyon, and

519
00:28:53,005 --> 00:28:55,205
Speaker 1: I mentioned on a previous episode he grew up with

520
00:28:55,285 --> 00:28:57,925
Speaker 1: neighbors who were in a cult, and since I said that,

521
00:28:58,245 --> 00:28:59,765
Speaker 1: one of them has reached out and they're going to

522
00:28:59,805 --> 00:29:08,645
Speaker 1: catch up there's a happy ending for you.