WEBVTT - Sex, The Ick & Attachment Styles 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.525 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:19.445 --> 0:00:22.325 Oh, this could be a whole episode. Let's see. Let's 0:00:22.365 --> 0:00:26.725 talk about sex. A lot of people use sex to 0:00:27.245 --> 0:00:31.885 try to build attachment, and that's actually not a great 0:00:31.965 --> 0:00:34.925 way to use sex. We want to think about can 0:00:34.965 --> 0:00:39.445 I develop a secure attachment first, and then sex is 0:00:39.485 --> 0:00:43.325 a way to deepen a healthy secure attachment. 0:00:50.645 --> 0:00:53.645 From Mom Maya, this is no filter and I'm Maya Friedman. 0:00:54.645 --> 0:00:56.725 I don't want to over promise here, but I think 0:00:56.725 --> 0:00:59.405 this episode is going to help you have better relationships, 0:00:59.845 --> 0:01:04.685 choose better romantic partners, and maybe understand the shitty relationships 0:01:04.685 --> 0:01:07.005 that you've had in the past or might still be having, 0:01:07.685 --> 0:01:10.205 because the origin of every relationship ship that we have 0:01:10.805 --> 0:01:15.205 is our attachment style, and knowing what yours is and 0:01:15.245 --> 0:01:17.805 how it affects the way that you interact with people 0:01:18.125 --> 0:01:21.005 and the romantic partners that you choose can be a 0:01:21.045 --> 0:01:25.445 total game changer. I've heard about attachment theory before, maybe 0:01:25.445 --> 0:01:28.165 you have too, but nobody has ever explained to me 0:01:28.205 --> 0:01:31.685 exactly how it works. So before interviewing my guest today, 0:01:31.885 --> 0:01:34.925 who is an expert on attachment styles. I did a 0:01:35.005 --> 0:01:38.445 quiz to find out what my style is. There are 0:01:38.485 --> 0:01:41.805 four styles, and only one of them is the one 0:01:41.845 --> 0:01:44.405 that you want. And guess what. I do not have 0:01:44.525 --> 0:01:48.405 that style, and seventy five percent of you or more 0:01:48.845 --> 0:01:52.845 probably don't either. So why does it matter? Great question? 0:01:53.565 --> 0:01:56.325 It turns out that it matters rather a lot, because 0:01:56.325 --> 0:01:59.885 our attachment styles dictate the kinds of romantic partners that 0:01:59.925 --> 0:02:02.485 we choose, and also how we show up in almost 0:02:02.485 --> 0:02:06.005 every relationship in our lives, not just the romantic ones, 0:02:06.365 --> 0:02:09.485 but also the relationships that we have with friends and 0:02:09.525 --> 0:02:13.085 coworkers and kids. If you have them, all of it. 0:02:13.525 --> 0:02:17.285 Our attachment style impacts us in really fundamental ways, and 0:02:17.365 --> 0:02:20.125 learning which one you are can unlock a whole room 0:02:20.245 --> 0:02:23.485 of understanding about yourself and make your life easier. And 0:02:23.525 --> 0:02:26.245 who doesn't want that? Me? I want that. I want 0:02:26.245 --> 0:02:29.445 my life to be easier. Doctor Morgan Anderson is a 0:02:29.485 --> 0:02:33.445 clinical psychologist who has a podcast called Let's Get Vulnerable, 0:02:34.005 --> 0:02:37.245 and she's an attachment theory expert whose goal it is 0:02:37.285 --> 0:02:40.485 to help women heal to have better relationships and men. 0:02:40.645 --> 0:02:43.485 I guess but she mostly deals with women, and I 0:02:43.525 --> 0:02:47.085 would also like to have better relationships, please. So my 0:02:47.205 --> 0:02:51.005 first question to Dr Morgan, who I immediately began calling 0:02:51.085 --> 0:02:54.645 Morgues because I don't like calling people by their formal names, 0:02:55.245 --> 0:02:59.165 probably because I have an anxious attachment style. Anyway, my 0:02:59.245 --> 0:03:02.525 first question to Morgues was about what happened in her 0:03:02.605 --> 0:03:06.485 life to make her decide to make attachment theory her specialty. 0:03:07.645 --> 0:03:08.605 So let's get into it. 0:03:09.645 --> 0:03:12.445 Well, we'll be here for three hours now. I'm just kidding. 0:03:13.045 --> 0:03:17.685 So I experienced childhood trauma. I lost my mom at 0:03:17.725 --> 0:03:21.165 a young age. I was six years old, and I 0:03:21.205 --> 0:03:24.805 then went through my dad actually being in some really 0:03:24.805 --> 0:03:27.845 difficult relationships. There was a lot of chaos in my 0:03:27.925 --> 0:03:33.045 family system growing up. So that was the beginning. And then, 0:03:33.085 --> 0:03:36.405 of course when I began to date, I was in 0:03:36.445 --> 0:03:40.605 my teens early twenties. I was very attracted to the 0:03:40.645 --> 0:03:46.325 emotionally unavailable man. And I always tell people it was 0:03:46.405 --> 0:03:48.765 like I was dating the same guy over and over again, 0:03:48.885 --> 0:03:54.365 different haircut, but it was the same emotional dynamic. 0:03:54.085 --> 0:03:56.245 Which was what took me through that guy. 0:03:56.845 --> 0:04:03.365 Yes, he was the quintessential unpredictable, not stable, doesn't do 0:04:03.485 --> 0:04:07.245 what he says he's going to do. I'm walking on eggshells, 0:04:07.285 --> 0:04:11.445 trying to prove my worthiness. Maybe I'm changing things about myself, thinking, oh, 0:04:11.445 --> 0:04:13.925 if I'm different in this way, then I can get 0:04:14.005 --> 0:04:18.325 him to want me. I experienced all kinds of terrible 0:04:18.405 --> 0:04:23.405 things that you do in toxic relationships, cheating, lying, people 0:04:23.445 --> 0:04:26.965 who were married, people who had whole different lives. I 0:04:26.965 --> 0:04:31.445 didn't know about all kinds of relational drama. And then 0:04:31.485 --> 0:04:34.045 it really came to a head when I found myself 0:04:34.085 --> 0:04:38.245 in a relationship with a narcissist. And a narcissist is 0:04:38.685 --> 0:04:41.885 kind of the most emotionally unavailable type of partner you 0:04:41.925 --> 0:04:44.445 can be with. And I was in my second year 0:04:44.485 --> 0:04:47.485 of graduate school and I was dating him for about 0:04:47.525 --> 0:04:50.445 a year and a half. And then at the end 0:04:50.485 --> 0:04:54.525 of that relationship, I just hit absolute rock bottom. I 0:04:54.565 --> 0:04:57.925 had had a near death experience. I had to go 0:04:57.965 --> 0:04:59.405 file a police report. 0:04:59.965 --> 0:05:03.805 Do you mean within your relationship? Yes, So there was 0:05:03.885 --> 0:05:06.725 domestic violence with this guy who was a narcissist. 0:05:06.925 --> 0:05:10.925 Yes, domestic violence, I mean just the most traumatic type 0:05:10.965 --> 0:05:13.965 of experience you can have where you are scared for 0:05:14.005 --> 0:05:17.365 your life essentially. And I went through that and I 0:05:17.445 --> 0:05:20.845 just thought, I don't even recognize myself. Who am I 0:05:20.925 --> 0:05:23.365 and I just had this fork in the road moment 0:05:24.045 --> 0:05:27.565 where I knew I can keep going down this path, 0:05:27.645 --> 0:05:31.765 I can keep repeating these same relationship dynamics. I don't 0:05:31.765 --> 0:05:33.645 know if I'm going to be alive it was that 0:05:34.085 --> 0:05:38.765 toxic or I can decide to heal. I can decide 0:05:38.805 --> 0:05:40.965 to try to figure out how do you have a 0:05:40.965 --> 0:05:44.925 healthy relationship? Something I had never figured out. And I 0:05:45.085 --> 0:05:49.965 chose that path, and I threw myself into researching attachment 0:05:50.045 --> 0:05:53.965 styles and learning everything I could about rewiring your brain 0:05:54.525 --> 0:05:57.285 so that you can have a healthy relationship. And then 0:05:57.325 --> 0:06:00.365 here I am, what is it? A decade later, and 0:06:00.645 --> 0:06:04.285 I've helped thousands of people become securely attached. I'm in 0:06:04.325 --> 0:06:09.285 an incredible relationship with my fiance We're getting married next year. 0:06:09.445 --> 0:06:13.045 He's my best friend, and I'm just I'm very, very 0:06:13.085 --> 0:06:16.005 happy in my life. But that version of you ten 0:06:16.085 --> 0:06:18.725 years ago would be shocked that I was able to 0:06:18.725 --> 0:06:19.565 get to this place. 0:06:20.205 --> 0:06:23.325 Can I ask about your fiancee? Was he different to 0:06:23.445 --> 0:06:25.005 every guy you'd die did before? 0:06:25.365 --> 0:06:29.685 That's a great question. As I was doing my healing work, 0:06:30.445 --> 0:06:33.805 I had started to attract a healthier type of partner, 0:06:34.325 --> 0:06:37.885 So I was starting to date emotionally available people. But 0:06:38.005 --> 0:06:40.845 I will say there's something about my fiance. I think 0:06:40.885 --> 0:06:46.485 he's probably one of the most emotionally available, thoughtful, emotionally 0:06:46.485 --> 0:06:49.925 intelligent men that I've ever met, and I from the 0:06:50.085 --> 0:06:52.725 very beginning I felt emotionally safe with him. 0:06:53.045 --> 0:06:56.245 There's so much talk about attachment theory and attachment styles 0:06:56.925 --> 0:07:01.085 at the moment, and there are four different attachment styles. 0:07:01.845 --> 0:07:02.525 What are they? 0:07:03.285 --> 0:07:09.885 Yes, so we have anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, or organized 0:07:09.925 --> 0:07:15.685 aka fearful avoidant, and secure attachment style. And I always 0:07:15.765 --> 0:07:18.125 like people to know that this is not a way 0:07:18.205 --> 0:07:21.565 to label yourself. It's not a way to judge yourself. 0:07:22.085 --> 0:07:24.485 When we understand our attachment style, it's a way to 0:07:24.525 --> 0:07:28.365 have acceptance and compassion so that we can heal. 0:07:28.685 --> 0:07:32.685 I quite like labeling myself. I find it useful because 0:07:33.005 --> 0:07:35.725 to me it just opens up into some insights and 0:07:35.765 --> 0:07:39.285 to some maybe some tools. And instead of saying, oh, 0:07:39.405 --> 0:07:42.325 I just like bad guys or I just you know, 0:07:42.565 --> 0:07:45.805 choose this type of relationship. I like the idea that 0:07:45.845 --> 0:07:48.325 there's a reason for it. It's not just you know, 0:07:48.525 --> 0:07:50.365 something that comes out of the blue and that you 0:07:50.445 --> 0:07:55.005 have no control over or that's just really random attachment 0:07:55.005 --> 0:07:58.765 theory is grounded in this idea that our attachment styles 0:07:58.765 --> 0:08:01.685 are baked in from childhood, from when we're babies. Is 0:08:01.725 --> 0:08:02.165 that right? 0:08:02.605 --> 0:08:06.525 Absolutely, yes, that it begins Some people would say even 0:08:06.565 --> 0:08:10.485 before birth, but that you were attachedment style is forming 0:08:11.245 --> 0:08:16.605 throughout all of your various relational experiences. Early attachment theory 0:08:16.685 --> 0:08:20.285 research would say, Okay, it's your relationship with your caregivers, 0:08:20.805 --> 0:08:25.925 that's it. But we now know that your early romantic relationships, 0:08:26.045 --> 0:08:29.805 your friendships, all of your relational experiences play a role 0:08:30.245 --> 0:08:32.765 in forming your unique attachment style. 0:08:33.205 --> 0:08:36.205 So it's not just your parents or the people who 0:08:36.365 --> 0:08:36.805 raised you. 0:08:37.365 --> 0:08:37.525 Right. 0:08:38.005 --> 0:08:42.725 Interesting, So when you say there's four secure, anxious, avoidant, 0:08:42.725 --> 0:08:46.045 and disorganized, can we just go through and you can 0:08:46.085 --> 0:08:49.165 explain to me some of the characteristics of each of 0:08:49.205 --> 0:08:51.725 those styles. And let's start with secure. 0:08:52.365 --> 0:08:55.005 Okay, I love secure. Secure is where we all want 0:08:55.045 --> 0:08:55.245 to be. 0:08:55.645 --> 0:08:57.885 I was going to say, I like a leaderboard, Morgan, 0:08:58.125 --> 0:09:01.885 and I like to understand what is the best one 0:09:02.165 --> 0:09:04.885 to be so that I can strive for it. Who's 0:09:04.885 --> 0:09:06.525 on the top of the leader board? Secure? 0:09:07.045 --> 0:09:12.405 Yeah, So with secure attachment, you are emotionally safe, you 0:09:12.525 --> 0:09:16.285 have interdependence with your partner. So you know, I can 0:09:16.325 --> 0:09:20.325 depend on me and I can depend on you. I'm 0:09:20.365 --> 0:09:23.485 able to self soothe, and I can also ask you 0:09:23.965 --> 0:09:27.285 to help regulate my emotions. I have both available to me. 0:09:27.805 --> 0:09:33.045 Interdependence as opposed to codependence. 0:09:32.365 --> 0:09:35.925 Yes, as opposed to codependence and hyper independence. 0:09:36.325 --> 0:09:39.765 Codependence means that you can't live without the other person, right. 0:09:39.885 --> 0:09:41.965 Right, That's where we see a lot of folks with 0:09:42.085 --> 0:09:47.205 anxious attachment are susceptible to codependence. You're too needy, Yes, 0:09:47.405 --> 0:09:52.165 you are prioritizing not being abandoned over your own needs. 0:09:52.725 --> 0:09:55.285 Is this just about romantic relationships or it's about all 0:09:55.325 --> 0:09:58.805 your relationships with friends, with family? 0:09:59.325 --> 0:10:01.925 It can be about all all your relationships, all of 0:10:01.925 --> 0:10:05.205 your relationships. Absolutely, Okay, yeah. 0:10:04.805 --> 0:10:08.365 So whatever style you have, it usually applies to how 0:10:08.405 --> 0:10:11.165 you interrel with everybody in your life. Is that right? 0:10:11.525 --> 0:10:15.565 Absolutely? I will say this though, It's very common for 0:10:15.725 --> 0:10:19.765 people to have secure attachment with their friends and even 0:10:19.805 --> 0:10:24.685 their family, and not in their romantic relationships. So it's 0:10:24.725 --> 0:10:27.445 normal that you would have different attachment styles based on 0:10:27.805 --> 0:10:29.045 the type of relationship. 0:10:29.085 --> 0:10:33.245 It is so anxious attachment, let's talk about that, and 0:10:33.325 --> 0:10:36.685 let's keep to romantic relationships because I think for the 0:10:36.685 --> 0:10:40.845 purposes of this conversation, let's try and understand out patterns 0:10:40.845 --> 0:10:43.885 in romantic relationships. What's anxious attachment. 0:10:44.365 --> 0:10:48.365 Anxious attachment at the core is where you are devaluing 0:10:48.405 --> 0:10:52.805 yourself and you are overvaluing the other person, so you 0:10:53.165 --> 0:10:57.725 are disconnected from self and you are very aware of 0:10:57.725 --> 0:11:02.245 the other person's needs. And with anxious attachment, I like 0:11:02.285 --> 0:11:06.405 to tell people it's like your reassurance bucket has holes 0:11:06.445 --> 0:11:09.125 in it. So what I mean by that is we 0:11:09.165 --> 0:11:13.645 all need reassurance to feel secure in a relationship. But 0:11:13.725 --> 0:11:16.845 if you have anxious attachment, no matter how much reassurance 0:11:16.885 --> 0:11:20.005 you're given, it's really hard for you to internalize it. 0:11:20.645 --> 0:11:22.885 You could have a partner say I love you, You're 0:11:22.965 --> 0:11:26.005 my everything. I'm never going to leave you, and then 0:11:26.285 --> 0:11:28.765 you still might want to ask, are you sure you 0:11:28.805 --> 0:11:31.245 love me? The reassurance is. 0:11:31.245 --> 0:11:33.925 Not landing avoidant attachment. 0:11:34.285 --> 0:11:37.765 This is where you're actually overvaluing yourself and you might 0:11:37.805 --> 0:11:42.405 find yourself devaluing others and there's a lot of unconscious 0:11:42.605 --> 0:11:47.405 distancing that's happening where you're pulling away, and this can 0:11:47.445 --> 0:11:53.565 look like not responding to text messages, avoiding conflict. Even 0:11:53.845 --> 0:11:56.085 those people who are very sarcastic, and they might be 0:11:56.125 --> 0:11:59.085 putting you down in kind of a sarcastic way. That 0:11:59.125 --> 0:12:02.125 can be an avoidant attachment strategy as a way to 0:12:02.205 --> 0:12:06.485 distance themselves from you. With avoidant attachment, you have to 0:12:06.525 --> 0:12:11.725 realize that there's a real difficulty with connecting to their emotions. 0:12:12.365 --> 0:12:14.645 So then of course they struggle with connecting to the 0:12:14.685 --> 0:12:18.685 emotions of others because they're disconnected from their own emotions. 0:12:19.205 --> 0:12:23.845 The fourth attachment style is interesting disorganized. What does that mean? 0:12:24.325 --> 0:12:29.205 Disorganized attachment is the combination of anxious and avoidant happening 0:12:29.245 --> 0:12:30.285 at the same time. 0:12:30.885 --> 0:12:32.245 Oh, how does that manifest? 0:12:32.845 --> 0:12:37.845 So this is that push pull dynamic. Never leave me, now, 0:12:37.885 --> 0:12:38.605 get away from me. 0:12:41.885 --> 0:12:46.565 That sounds familiar in a moment. Now that we know 0:12:46.605 --> 0:12:49.805 what the four attachment styles are, what do we do 0:12:49.925 --> 0:12:52.605 with that information? And how do we figure out which 0:12:52.685 --> 0:12:58.005 one we are? We'll be right back. Can you be 0:12:58.125 --> 0:13:01.845 a combination of more than one attachment style? Or do 0:13:01.885 --> 0:13:04.805 we tend to fall mostly in one of those four buckets? 0:13:05.165 --> 0:13:08.765 Most people will have a style that they find themselves 0:13:08.845 --> 0:13:11.845 being in the majority of the time. I think it's 0:13:11.885 --> 0:13:15.045 important to ask yourself that of Okay, where am I 0:13:15.245 --> 0:13:18.205 most of the time. The important thing to realize about 0:13:18.325 --> 0:13:22.765 disorganized attachment is once again that anxious and avoidant are 0:13:22.845 --> 0:13:27.405 happening simultaneously. So it's not that you just have both 0:13:27.445 --> 0:13:30.605 anxious and avoidant strategies, is that they're actually happening at 0:13:30.645 --> 0:13:31.365 the same time. 0:13:31.645 --> 0:13:33.765 That must feel very confusing and uncomfortable. 0:13:34.205 --> 0:13:38.885 It's very chaotic. It's about five to seven percent of 0:13:38.925 --> 0:13:45.125 the population highly correlated with childhood trauma, oftentimes misdiagnosed as 0:13:45.165 --> 0:13:50.525 borderline personality disorder. I think people with disorganized attachment they 0:13:50.565 --> 0:13:53.405 often feel a lot of pain in their relationships. 0:13:54.045 --> 0:13:56.805 Is your attachment style fixed for life or can you change? 0:13:57.285 --> 0:14:01.005 I'm so glad you asked yes, you can always become 0:14:01.045 --> 0:14:05.925 securely attached. Really yes, The old research said no, which 0:14:06.125 --> 0:14:09.125 was actually what motivated me to write a book because 0:14:09.165 --> 0:14:12.165 I was very annoyed about that. We have tons of 0:14:12.285 --> 0:14:16.125 data now that you can rewire your brain and change 0:14:16.125 --> 0:14:20.005 your nervous system and learn how to embody secure attachment. 0:14:20.605 --> 0:14:24.605 So no matter how tumultuous or even traumatic your childhood was, 0:14:24.685 --> 0:14:27.925 no matter what the patterns were that was set early 0:14:28.005 --> 0:14:31.565 on in your life, you can change that. 0:14:32.245 --> 0:14:34.605 Absolutely. I'm living proof of that. 0:14:35.045 --> 0:14:37.405 I want to ask a little bit about your story, 0:14:37.485 --> 0:14:42.445 if that's okay. Losing your mum at six. I can't 0:14:42.485 --> 0:14:46.405 imagine how that felt. I genuinely can't imagine how that felt. 0:14:46.485 --> 0:14:50.245 Looking back now as the woman you are to that 0:14:50.285 --> 0:14:53.725 little girl, how did it play out for her? Because 0:14:53.765 --> 0:14:57.285 I mean, abandoned doesn't even begin to cover how you 0:14:57.365 --> 0:14:58.085 must have felt. 0:14:58.485 --> 0:15:01.885 I've done a lot of deep work, and I really 0:15:01.965 --> 0:15:06.125 wasn't able to talk about losing my mom until my 0:15:06.245 --> 0:15:08.685 mid thirties. It's just one of those things. I really 0:15:08.725 --> 0:15:11.325 had to process a lot before I could even talk 0:15:11.365 --> 0:15:14.045 about it, and so I've thought a lot about it. 0:15:14.085 --> 0:15:17.805 And one of the things I've done is I realized 0:15:17.845 --> 0:15:21.245 I had a lot of abandonment beliefs that I was 0:15:21.285 --> 0:15:25.525 abandoned by her. Even though this was it was an accident, 0:15:25.885 --> 0:15:30.325 it was a totally random thing. I had internalized that 0:15:30.485 --> 0:15:32.605 there was something wrong with me and that I was 0:15:32.645 --> 0:15:36.045 abandoned because there was something wrong with me. So it 0:15:36.085 --> 0:15:40.245 took me years of processing and deep work to even 0:15:40.325 --> 0:15:44.605 get to that level of realization. But once I did, 0:15:45.445 --> 0:15:48.045 I let go of so much and I do a 0:15:48.045 --> 0:15:50.205 lot of spiritual work. I don't know where you are 0:15:50.285 --> 0:15:51.445 on the wo woo oh. 0:15:51.485 --> 0:15:55.365 I like, I'm a combo of science and woo woo. 0:15:55.125 --> 0:15:58.085 The same same. So I do a lot of breath 0:15:58.085 --> 0:16:01.325 work and I've had some breathwork experiences where i feel 0:16:01.325 --> 0:16:05.405 that I've connected with my mom's energy. And one of 0:16:05.445 --> 0:16:07.365 the messages that she had and I'm going to get 0:16:07.365 --> 0:16:09.805 emotional talking about this, but the message that she had 0:16:09.845 --> 0:16:12.445 for me was I never left you. I've always been there. 0:16:14.845 --> 0:16:19.685 Yeah. That's incredibly beautiful and important because the feeling of 0:16:19.725 --> 0:16:23.965 abandonment can exist whether someone actually abandoned you or not. 0:16:24.125 --> 0:16:26.205 Like she didn't abandon you, clearly, it's not like she 0:16:26.325 --> 0:16:29.365 left you. It's not like she wanted to be apart 0:16:29.405 --> 0:16:31.485 from you. It was an accident, it was random, it 0:16:31.565 --> 0:16:34.285 was out of her control. She never would have chosen that. 0:16:34.845 --> 0:16:38.005 But the fact that you felt abandoned isn't any less 0:16:38.045 --> 0:16:42.125 real just because she didn't want it right right exactly. 0:16:42.645 --> 0:16:46.045 So how do you feel that, because that must have 0:16:46.205 --> 0:16:48.445 even though I'm sure you couldn't have articulated at at 0:16:48.485 --> 0:16:53.245 age six, how did that impact on the people that 0:16:53.285 --> 0:16:55.805 you chose and your relationships, even with your dad at 0:16:55.805 --> 0:16:56.245 that time. 0:16:56.725 --> 0:16:59.725 Yeah, and my dad. You know, I've worked a lot 0:16:59.765 --> 0:17:03.285 on my relationship with him. He didn't really have a 0:17:03.365 --> 0:17:08.165 great childhood, he didn't have models for emotional availability. My 0:17:08.285 --> 0:17:12.525 dad really threw himself into work, so he was working NonStop. 0:17:12.965 --> 0:17:15.885 And I think what I learned during that time of 0:17:15.925 --> 0:17:18.685 my life, which is I honestly dissociated a lot. So 0:17:18.765 --> 0:17:21.725 I have very few memories from age six to fifteen, 0:17:22.445 --> 0:17:25.645 but during that time, I just remember trying to make 0:17:25.685 --> 0:17:29.285 myself as small as possible, and not wanting to take 0:17:29.365 --> 0:17:32.125 up space, and not wanting to be a burden, and 0:17:32.245 --> 0:17:34.805 just trying to be a good kid and be a 0:17:34.845 --> 0:17:37.605 good student. And I really felt that if I had 0:17:37.645 --> 0:17:42.165 emotions that it would be an inconvenience. I really disconnected 0:17:42.365 --> 0:17:46.325 from my inner experience. I think it was just so 0:17:46.405 --> 0:17:48.845 hard for me to process what had happened that I 0:17:48.965 --> 0:17:51.645 just cut off from my emotions and I decided to achieve, 0:17:52.325 --> 0:17:55.805 which so many of us do. And it wasn't intel 0:17:55.885 --> 0:17:58.965 doing this work after getting out of the relationship with 0:17:59.045 --> 0:18:03.685 the narcissists that I realized, Oh, I've been completely disconnected 0:18:03.725 --> 0:18:09.045 from my internal experience. I've lost all of my self trust. 0:18:09.325 --> 0:18:12.885 I don't even know what I'm feeling. I can't express 0:18:12.925 --> 0:18:16.405 what I'm feeling, and I just keep attracting people that 0:18:16.485 --> 0:18:19.685 take up all the space and people that I have 0:18:19.765 --> 0:18:23.405 to care for. I was always much more comfortable care 0:18:23.605 --> 0:18:28.805 taking for others than taking up space. Even my journey 0:18:28.805 --> 0:18:32.205 of realizing why did I choose clinical psychology, it was 0:18:32.245 --> 0:18:34.525 a natural thing for me to do, was just to 0:18:34.645 --> 0:18:38.685 let other people take up space and caretake. So I've 0:18:38.725 --> 0:18:43.725 had this whole realization of really healing myself and my 0:18:43.805 --> 0:18:47.965 beliefs about my emotions and my worthiness of expressing what 0:18:48.005 --> 0:18:50.805 I feel and I can say. In my thirties. This 0:18:50.845 --> 0:18:52.925 has been such a great decade because I know that 0:18:53.045 --> 0:18:57.085 I'm taking up space, I'm connected to my emotions, I'm 0:18:57.125 --> 0:19:00.845 setting boundaries all those things that that little girl, How 0:19:00.885 --> 0:19:02.605 do I say this? I was in survival mode. I 0:19:02.645 --> 0:19:05.925 was in fight or flight mode, so I wasn't even 0:19:05.965 --> 0:19:07.965 aware of what I was feeling or needing. 0:19:08.245 --> 0:19:10.045 You must have been terrified that your dad was going 0:19:10.125 --> 0:19:10.445 to die? 0:19:11.125 --> 0:19:14.805 Yeah, I think I was. I also have aunts. I 0:19:14.805 --> 0:19:18.365 have amazing aunts, my mom's sisters, and I know there 0:19:18.445 --> 0:19:21.565 was some of that in my relationship with them as well. 0:19:21.845 --> 0:19:25.485 Being very fearful, I guess, and not trusting that people 0:19:25.525 --> 0:19:26.365 would stick around. 0:19:27.085 --> 0:19:31.125 Yes, we had dogs. We had three dogs, and there 0:19:31.165 --> 0:19:32.525 was a lot of chaos. As I said, in my 0:19:32.565 --> 0:19:35.405 family were moving around a lot, and these were dogs 0:19:35.445 --> 0:19:37.485 that my mom had picked out. They'd been part of 0:19:37.525 --> 0:19:40.845 our family, and when we moved at one point my 0:19:40.965 --> 0:19:45.805 dad gave away the dogs, one of the only constants 0:19:45.845 --> 0:19:48.965 in my life. And not only did he give them away, 0:19:49.045 --> 0:19:52.725 he had us go to the families and give the 0:19:52.765 --> 0:19:57.285 dogs to the families. And as you can imagine, that 0:19:57.445 --> 0:19:59.565 was incredibly painful for me. 0:20:00.045 --> 0:20:03.365 Do you have siblings. I have a twin sister, okay, 0:20:03.765 --> 0:20:07.005 which brings me to my next question. Can you have 0:20:07.165 --> 0:20:10.165 children who grow up in the same facts, so the 0:20:10.205 --> 0:20:13.085 same nurture, but have different attachment styles. 0:20:13.445 --> 0:20:17.005 Absolutely, my sister and I are a wonderful case study 0:20:17.045 --> 0:20:21.485 of this. Yes, you can have similar experiences in childhood 0:20:22.285 --> 0:20:26.125 and develop completely different attachment styles based on how you're 0:20:26.205 --> 0:20:28.485 coping with the attachment wounds. 0:20:28.885 --> 0:20:29.845 Speak more about that. 0:20:30.365 --> 0:20:33.805 So, if you have a child where the parent is 0:20:34.005 --> 0:20:38.525 emotionally unavailable, maybe one of the children learns, okay, I 0:20:38.605 --> 0:20:42.285 need to be hyper independent. So they're developing the avoidant 0:20:42.285 --> 0:20:46.045 attachment style where they're disconnected and they want to achieve 0:20:46.205 --> 0:20:50.925 and be independent, whereas the other child may develop anxious attachment. 0:20:51.605 --> 0:20:55.325 I need reassurance. I'm asking for a lot. I come 0:20:55.365 --> 0:21:00.965 across as needy, and it's same experience, two different ways 0:21:01.005 --> 0:21:02.685 of responding and coping. 0:21:03.165 --> 0:21:05.725 Did your twin and you share an attachment style? 0:21:06.045 --> 0:21:10.645 I would say she was definitely way more of attached 0:21:10.925 --> 0:21:11.205 then me. 0:21:11.605 --> 0:21:14.645 I would have thought that it's funny with twins because 0:21:14.685 --> 0:21:17.365 you would always be there for each other, right, So 0:21:17.485 --> 0:21:21.445 I would have assumed that twins have a secure attachment style, 0:21:21.445 --> 0:21:23.885 I guess, because there's always someone there that you can 0:21:23.925 --> 0:21:25.805 rely on. But one of my closest friends is a 0:21:25.845 --> 0:21:30.485 twin and she has an anxious attachment style as well. 0:21:30.925 --> 0:21:34.525 And one thing to really think about is when we're developing, 0:21:35.245 --> 0:21:38.805 whether it's early on with our parents or in our teens, whenever, 0:21:39.245 --> 0:21:43.605 if we don't have that secure figure, that person that 0:21:43.725 --> 0:21:47.765 is showing up, that's validating our emotions, that's really making 0:21:47.845 --> 0:21:51.005 us feel seen and heard and validated. If we don't 0:21:51.045 --> 0:21:54.125 have that, then we're not learning how to do that 0:21:54.245 --> 0:21:57.325 for ourselves, and we're not learning how to do that 0:21:57.405 --> 0:22:00.445 for others. So my sister and I didn't really have 0:22:00.525 --> 0:22:04.045 adults that were modeling that for us, So we didn't 0:22:04.085 --> 0:22:05.845 learn how to do it for ourselves, and we certainly 0:22:05.925 --> 0:22:08.965 we actually fought. We actually had a horrible relationship all 0:22:09.005 --> 0:22:13.565 through out my childhood and into high school. And now 0:22:13.605 --> 0:22:17.045 we're best friends. That's wonderful how that's worked out. But 0:22:17.125 --> 0:22:20.005 we had experienced so much trauma that we really couldn't 0:22:20.005 --> 0:22:21.205 be there for each other. 0:22:23.125 --> 0:22:26.605 Okay, So then why if we have abandonment issues would 0:22:26.645 --> 0:22:30.965 we find avoidant partners? How does that whole attraction thing 0:22:31.085 --> 0:22:34.845 work depending on our attachment style? More with doctor Morgan 0:22:34.885 --> 0:22:40.245 Andison after this short break. People who don't kind of 0:22:40.525 --> 0:22:44.365 understand how this works. And I suppose logically you would think, well, 0:22:44.845 --> 0:22:49.765 if you'd have had issues around abandonment, surely you would 0:22:50.285 --> 0:22:53.365 look for a partner who was very present, who was 0:22:53.925 --> 0:22:58.445 able to meet your needs. But often we repeat whatever 0:22:58.485 --> 0:23:01.285 it is that's traumatized us in our childhood, is that 0:23:01.285 --> 0:23:03.965 because it feels familiar and it's our default. 0:23:04.325 --> 0:23:07.165 I was so glad you were asking me about this. Yes, 0:23:07.765 --> 0:23:12.485 it's because it feels from it's our emotional home. And 0:23:12.645 --> 0:23:17.245 I would add that there's this thing called repetition compulsion. 0:23:17.485 --> 0:23:19.045 Have you heard that term? No? 0:23:19.765 --> 0:23:22.165 Okay, but I think I can relate to it already, 0:23:22.205 --> 0:23:23.965 even without having heard it before. 0:23:25.365 --> 0:23:32.765 With repetition compulsion, we're repeating our same relational dynamics unconsciously. 0:23:33.085 --> 0:23:35.445 It's not as if you're intentionally saying, oh, let me 0:23:35.565 --> 0:23:39.965 find this emotionally unavailable person again. You're repeating it unconsciously. 0:23:40.645 --> 0:23:45.685 But there's the unconscious wish that this time you would 0:23:45.805 --> 0:23:49.525 have a different result, And your brain goes, if I 0:23:49.565 --> 0:23:51.925 can get this person to love me this time, it's 0:23:51.925 --> 0:23:55.045 going to make up for everything I experienced in the past. 0:23:55.405 --> 0:23:56.885 I bet it never happens. 0:23:57.405 --> 0:24:01.725 No, And it ends the same way insanity is, you know, 0:24:01.845 --> 0:24:03.925