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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: Oh, this could be a whole episode. Let's see. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about sex. A lot of people use sex to

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Speaker 1: try to build attachment, and that's actually not a great

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Speaker 1: way to use sex. We want to think about can

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Speaker 1: I develop a secure attachment first, and then sex is

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Speaker 1: a way to deepen a healthy secure attachment.

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Speaker 2: From Mom Maya, this is no filter and I'm Maya Friedman.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to over promise here, but I think

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Speaker 2: this episode is going to help you have better relationships,

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Speaker 2: choose better romantic partners, and maybe understand the shitty relationships

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Speaker 2: that you've had in the past or might still be having,

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Speaker 2: because the origin of every relationship ship that we have

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Speaker 2: is our attachment style, and knowing what yours is and

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Speaker 2: how it affects the way that you interact with people

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Speaker 2: and the romantic partners that you choose can be a

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Speaker 2: total game changer. I've heard about attachment theory before, maybe

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Speaker 2: you have too, but nobody has ever explained to me

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Speaker 2: exactly how it works. So before interviewing my guest today,

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Speaker 2: who is an expert on attachment styles. I did a

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Speaker 2: quiz to find out what my style is. There are

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Speaker 2: four styles, and only one of them is the one

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Speaker 2: that you want. And guess what. I do not have

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Speaker 2: that style, and seventy five percent of you or more

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Speaker 2: probably don't either. So why does it matter? Great question?

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Speaker 2: It turns out that it matters rather a lot, because

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Speaker 2: our attachment styles dictate the kinds of romantic partners that

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Speaker 2: we choose, and also how we show up in almost

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Speaker 2: every relationship in our lives, not just the romantic ones,

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Speaker 2: but also the relationships that we have with friends and

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Speaker 2: coworkers and kids. If you have them, all of it.

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Speaker 2: Our attachment style impacts us in really fundamental ways, and

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Speaker 2: learning which one you are can unlock a whole room

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Speaker 2: of understanding about yourself and make your life easier. And

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Speaker 2: who doesn't want that? Me? I want that. I want

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Speaker 2: my life to be easier. Doctor Morgan Anderson is a

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Speaker 2: clinical psychologist who has a podcast called Let's Get Vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: and she's an attachment theory expert whose goal it is

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Speaker 2: to help women heal to have better relationships and men.

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Speaker 2: I guess but she mostly deals with women, and I

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Speaker 2: would also like to have better relationships, please. So my

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Speaker 2: first question to Dr Morgan, who I immediately began calling

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Speaker 2: Morgues because I don't like calling people by their formal names,

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Speaker 2: probably because I have an anxious attachment style. Anyway, my

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Speaker 2: first question to Morgues was about what happened in her

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Speaker 2: life to make her decide to make attachment theory her specialty.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll be here for three hours now. I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 1: So I experienced childhood trauma. I lost my mom at

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Speaker 1: a young age. I was six years old, and I

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Speaker 1: then went through my dad actually being in some really

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Speaker 1: difficult relationships. There was a lot of chaos in my

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Speaker 1: family system growing up. So that was the beginning. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course when I began to date, I was in

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Speaker 1: my teens early twenties. I was very attracted to the

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Speaker 1: emotionally unavailable man. And I always tell people it was

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Speaker 1: like I was dating the same guy over and over again,

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Speaker 1: different haircut, but it was the same emotional dynamic.

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Speaker 2: Which was what took me through that guy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he was the quintessential unpredictable, not stable, doesn't do

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Speaker 1: what he says he's going to do. I'm walking on eggshells,

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Speaker 1: trying to prove my worthiness. Maybe I'm changing things about myself, thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: if I'm different in this way, then I can get

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Speaker 1: him to want me. I experienced all kinds of terrible

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Speaker 1: things that you do in toxic relationships, cheating, lying, people

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Speaker 1: who were married, people who had whole different lives. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know about all kinds of relational drama. And then

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Speaker 1: it really came to a head when I found myself

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Speaker 1: in a relationship with a narcissist. And a narcissist is

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Speaker 1: kind of the most emotionally unavailable type of partner you

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Speaker 1: can be with. And I was in my second year

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Speaker 1: of graduate school and I was dating him for about

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Speaker 1: a year and a half. And then at the end

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Speaker 1: of that relationship, I just hit absolute rock bottom. I

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Speaker 1: had had a near death experience. I had to go

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Speaker 1: file a police report.

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Speaker 2: Do you mean within your relationship? Yes, So there was

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Speaker 2: domestic violence with this guy who was a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: Yes, domestic violence, I mean just the most traumatic type

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Speaker 1: of experience you can have where you are scared for

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Speaker 1: your life essentially. And I went through that and I

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Speaker 1: just thought, I don't even recognize myself. Who am I

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Speaker 1: and I just had this fork in the road moment

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Speaker 1: where I knew I can keep going down this path,

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Speaker 1: I can keep repeating these same relationship dynamics. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I'm going to be alive it was that

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Speaker 1: toxic or I can decide to heal. I can decide

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out how do you have a

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Speaker 1: healthy relationship? Something I had never figured out. And I

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Speaker 1: chose that path, and I threw myself into researching attachment

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Speaker 1: styles and learning everything I could about rewiring your brain

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Speaker 1: so that you can have a healthy relationship. And then

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Speaker 1: here I am, what is it? A decade later, and

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Speaker 1: I've helped thousands of people become securely attached. I'm in

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Speaker 1: an incredible relationship with my fiance We're getting married next year.

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Speaker 1: He's my best friend, and I'm just I'm very, very

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Speaker 1: happy in my life. But that version of you ten

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Speaker 1: years ago would be shocked that I was able to

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Speaker 1: get to this place.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask about your fiancee? Was he different to

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Speaker 2: every guy you'd die did before?

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Speaker 1: That's a great question. As I was doing my healing work,

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Speaker 1: I had started to attract a healthier type of partner,

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Speaker 1: So I was starting to date emotionally available people. But

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Speaker 1: I will say there's something about my fiance. I think

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Speaker 1: he's probably one of the most emotionally available, thoughtful, emotionally

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Speaker 1: intelligent men that I've ever met, and I from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning I felt emotionally safe with him.

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Speaker 2: There's so much talk about attachment theory and attachment styles

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Speaker 2: at the moment, and there are four different attachment styles.

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Speaker 2: What are they?

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Speaker 1: Yes, so we have anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, or organized

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Speaker 1: aka fearful avoidant, and secure attachment style. And I always

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Speaker 1: like people to know that this is not a way

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Speaker 1: to label yourself. It's not a way to judge yourself.

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Speaker 1: When we understand our attachment style, it's a way to

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Speaker 1: have acceptance and compassion so that we can heal.

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Speaker 2: I quite like labeling myself. I find it useful because

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Speaker 2: to me it just opens up into some insights and

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Speaker 2: to some maybe some tools. And instead of saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just like bad guys or I just you know,

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Speaker 2: choose this type of relationship. I like the idea that

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Speaker 2: there's a reason for it. It's not just you know,

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Speaker 2: something that comes out of the blue and that you

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Speaker 2: have no control over or that's just really random attachment

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Speaker 2: theory is grounded in this idea that our attachment styles

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Speaker 2: are baked in from childhood, from when we're babies. Is

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Speaker 2: that right?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, that it begins Some people would say even

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Speaker 1: before birth, but that you were attachedment style is forming

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Speaker 1: throughout all of your various relational experiences. Early attachment theory

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Speaker 1: research would say, Okay, it's your relationship with your caregivers,

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Speaker 1: that's it. But we now know that your early romantic relationships,

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Speaker 1: your friendships, all of your relational experiences play a role

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Speaker 1: in forming your unique attachment style.

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Speaker 2: So it's not just your parents or the people who

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Speaker 2: raised you.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, So when you say there's four secure, anxious, avoidant,

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Speaker 2: and disorganized, can we just go through and you can

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Speaker 2: explain to me some of the characteristics of each of

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Speaker 2: those styles. And let's start with secure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I love secure. Secure is where we all want

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Speaker 1: to be.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, I like a leaderboard, Morgan,

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Speaker 2: and I like to understand what is the best one

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Speaker 2: to be so that I can strive for it. Who's

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Speaker 2: on the top of the leader board? Secure?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So with secure attachment, you are emotionally safe, you

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Speaker 1: have interdependence with your partner. So you know, I can

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Speaker 1: depend on me and I can depend on you. I'm

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Speaker 1: able to self soothe, and I can also ask you

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Speaker 1: to help regulate my emotions. I have both available to me.

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Speaker 2: Interdependence as opposed to codependence.

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Speaker 1: Yes, as opposed to codependence and hyper independence.

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Speaker 2: Codependence means that you can't live without the other person, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's where we see a lot of folks with

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Speaker 1: anxious attachment are susceptible to codependence. You're too needy, Yes,

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Speaker 1: you are prioritizing not being abandoned over your own needs.

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Speaker 2: Is this just about romantic relationships or it's about all

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Speaker 2: your relationships with friends, with family?

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Speaker 1: It can be about all all your relationships, all of

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Speaker 1: your relationships. Absolutely, Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So whatever style you have, it usually applies to how

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Speaker 2: you interrel with everybody in your life. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? I will say this though, It's very common for

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Speaker 1: people to have secure attachment with their friends and even

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Speaker 1: their family, and not in their romantic relationships. So it's

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Speaker 1: normal that you would have different attachment styles based on

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Speaker 1: the type of relationship.

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Speaker 2: It is so anxious attachment, let's talk about that, and

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Speaker 2: let's keep to romantic relationships because I think for the

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Speaker 2: purposes of this conversation, let's try and understand out patterns

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Speaker 2: in romantic relationships. What's anxious attachment.

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Speaker 1: Anxious attachment at the core is where you are devaluing

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Speaker 1: yourself and you are overvaluing the other person, so you

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Speaker 1: are disconnected from self and you are very aware of

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Speaker 1: the other person's needs. And with anxious attachment, I like

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Speaker 1: to tell people it's like your reassurance bucket has holes

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Speaker 1: in it. So what I mean by that is we

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Speaker 1: all need reassurance to feel secure in a relationship. But

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Speaker 1: if you have anxious attachment, no matter how much reassurance

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Speaker 1: you're given, it's really hard for you to internalize it.

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Speaker 1: You could have a partner say I love you, You're

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Speaker 1: my everything. I'm never going to leave you, and then

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Speaker 1: you still might want to ask, are you sure you

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Speaker 1: love me? The reassurance is.

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Speaker 2: Not landing avoidant attachment.

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Speaker 1: This is where you're actually overvaluing yourself and you might

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Speaker 1: find yourself devaluing others and there's a lot of unconscious

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Speaker 1: distancing that's happening where you're pulling away, and this can

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Speaker 1: look like not responding to text messages, avoiding conflict. Even

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Speaker 1: those people who are very sarcastic, and they might be

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Speaker 1: putting you down in kind of a sarcastic way. That

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Speaker 1: can be an avoidant attachment strategy as a way to

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Speaker 1: distance themselves from you. With avoidant attachment, you have to

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Speaker 1: realize that there's a real difficulty with connecting to their emotions.

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Speaker 1: So then of course they struggle with connecting to the

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Speaker 1: emotions of others because they're disconnected from their own emotions.

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Speaker 2: The fourth attachment style is interesting disorganized. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Disorganized attachment is the combination of anxious and avoidant happening

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Speaker 1: at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, how does that manifest?

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Speaker 1: So this is that push pull dynamic. Never leave me, now,

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Speaker 1: get away from me.

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Speaker 2: That sounds familiar in a moment. Now that we know

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Speaker 2: what the four attachment styles are, what do we do

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Speaker 2: with that information? And how do we figure out which

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Speaker 2: one we are? We'll be right back. Can you be

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Speaker 2: a combination of more than one attachment style? Or do

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Speaker 2: we tend to fall mostly in one of those four buckets?

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Speaker 1: Most people will have a style that they find themselves

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Speaker 1: being in the majority of the time. I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to ask yourself that of Okay, where am I

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Speaker 1: most of the time. The important thing to realize about

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Speaker 1: disorganized attachment is once again that anxious and avoidant are

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Speaker 1: happening simultaneously. So it's not that you just have both

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Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant strategies, is that they're actually happening at

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Speaker 1: the same time.

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Speaker 2: That must feel very confusing and uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: It's very chaotic. It's about five to seven percent of

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Speaker 1: the population highly correlated with childhood trauma, oftentimes misdiagnosed as

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Speaker 1: borderline personality disorder. I think people with disorganized attachment they

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Speaker 1: often feel a lot of pain in their relationships.

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Speaker 2: Is your attachment style fixed for life or can you change?

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked yes, you can always become

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Speaker 1: securely attached. Really yes, The old research said no, which

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Speaker 1: was actually what motivated me to write a book because

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Speaker 1: I was very annoyed about that. We have tons of

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Speaker 1: data now that you can rewire your brain and change

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Speaker 1: your nervous system and learn how to embody secure attachment.

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Speaker 2: So no matter how tumultuous or even traumatic your childhood was,

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Speaker 2: no matter what the patterns were that was set early

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Speaker 2: on in your life, you can change that.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I'm living proof of that.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask a little bit about your story,

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Speaker 2: if that's okay. Losing your mum at six. I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine how that felt. I genuinely can't imagine how that felt.

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Speaker 2: Looking back now as the woman you are to that

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Speaker 2: little girl, how did it play out for her? Because

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Speaker 2: I mean, abandoned doesn't even begin to cover how you

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Speaker 2: must have felt.

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Speaker 1: I've done a lot of deep work, and I really

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to talk about losing my mom until my

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Speaker 1: mid thirties. It's just one of those things. I really

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Speaker 1: had to process a lot before I could even talk

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Speaker 1: about it, and so I've thought a lot about it.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I've done is I realized

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of abandonment beliefs that I was

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Speaker 1: abandoned by her. Even though this was it was an accident,

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Speaker 1: it was a totally random thing. I had internalized that

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Speaker 1: there was something wrong with me and that I was

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Speaker 1: abandoned because there was something wrong with me. So it

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Speaker 1: took me years of processing and deep work to even

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Speaker 1: get to that level of realization. But once I did,

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Speaker 1: I let go of so much and I do a

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Speaker 1: lot of spiritual work. I don't know where you are

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Speaker 1: on the wo woo oh.

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Speaker 2: I like, I'm a combo of science and woo woo.

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Speaker 1: The same same. So I do a lot of breath

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Speaker 1: work and I've had some breathwork experiences where i feel

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Speaker 1: that I've connected with my mom's energy. And one of

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Speaker 1: the messages that she had and I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: emotional talking about this, but the message that she had

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Speaker 1: for me was I never left you. I've always been there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That's incredibly beautiful and important because the feeling of

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Speaker 2: abandonment can exist whether someone actually abandoned you or not.

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Speaker 2: Like she didn't abandon you, clearly, it's not like she

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Speaker 2: left you. It's not like she wanted to be apart

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Speaker 2: from you. It was an accident, it was random, it

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Speaker 2: was out of her control. She never would have chosen that.

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Speaker 2: But the fact that you felt abandoned isn't any less

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Speaker 2: real just because she didn't want it right right exactly.

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Speaker 2: So how do you feel that, because that must have

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Speaker 2: even though I'm sure you couldn't have articulated at at

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Speaker 2: age six, how did that impact on the people that

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Speaker 2: you chose and your relationships, even with your dad at

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Speaker 2: that time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and my dad. You know, I've worked a lot

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Speaker 1: on my relationship with him. He didn't really have a

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Speaker 1: great childhood, he didn't have models for emotional availability. My

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Speaker 1: dad really threw himself into work, so he was working NonStop.

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Speaker 1: And I think what I learned during that time of

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Speaker 1: my life, which is I honestly dissociated a lot. So

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Speaker 1: I have very few memories from age six to fifteen,

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Speaker 1: but during that time, I just remember trying to make

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Speaker 1: myself as small as possible, and not wanting to take

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Speaker 1: up space, and not wanting to be a burden, and

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Speaker 1: just trying to be a good kid and be a

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Speaker 1: good student. And I really felt that if I had

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Speaker 1: emotions that it would be an inconvenience. I really disconnected

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Speaker 1: from my inner experience. I think it was just so

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Speaker 1: hard for me to process what had happened that I

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Speaker 1: just cut off from my emotions and I decided to achieve,

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Speaker 1: which so many of us do. And it wasn't intel

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Speaker 1: doing this work after getting out of the relationship with

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Speaker 1: the narcissists that I realized, Oh, I've been completely disconnected

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Speaker 1: from my internal experience. I've lost all of my self trust.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm feeling. I can't express

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Speaker 1: what I'm feeling, and I just keep attracting people that

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Speaker 1: take up all the space and people that I have

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Speaker 1: to care for. I was always much more comfortable care

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Speaker 1: taking for others than taking up space. Even my journey

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Speaker 1: of realizing why did I choose clinical psychology, it was

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Speaker 1: a natural thing for me to do, was just to

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Speaker 1: let other people take up space and caretake. So I've

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Speaker 1: had this whole realization of really healing myself and my

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Speaker 1: beliefs about my emotions and my worthiness of expressing what

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Speaker 1: I feel and I can say. In my thirties. This

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Speaker 1: has been such a great decade because I know that

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Speaker 1: I'm taking up space, I'm connected to my emotions, I'm

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Speaker 1: setting boundaries all those things that that little girl, How

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Speaker 1: do I say this? I was in survival mode. I

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Speaker 1: was in fight or flight mode, so I wasn't even

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Speaker 1: aware of what I was feeling or needing.

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Speaker 2: You must have been terrified that your dad was going

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Speaker 2: to die?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I was. I also have aunts. I

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Speaker 1: have amazing aunts, my mom's sisters, and I know there

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Speaker 1: was some of that in my relationship with them as well.

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Speaker 2: Being very fearful, I guess, and not trusting that people

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Speaker 2: would stick around.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we had dogs. We had three dogs, and there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of chaos. As I said, in my

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Speaker 1: family were moving around a lot, and these were dogs

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Speaker 1: that my mom had picked out. They'd been part of

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Speaker 1: our family, and when we moved at one point my

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Speaker 1: dad gave away the dogs, one of the only constants

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Speaker 1: in my life. And not only did he give them away,

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Speaker 1: he had us go to the families and give the

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Speaker 1: dogs to the families. And as you can imagine, that

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Speaker 1: was incredibly painful for me.

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Speaker 2: Do you have siblings. I have a twin sister, okay,

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Speaker 2: which brings me to my next question. Can you have

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Speaker 2: children who grow up in the same facts, so the

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Speaker 2: same nurture, but have different attachment styles.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, my sister and I are a wonderful case study

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Speaker 1: of this. Yes, you can have similar experiences in childhood

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Speaker 1: and develop completely different attachment styles based on how you're

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Speaker 1: coping with the attachment wounds.

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Speaker 2: Speak more about that.

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Speaker 1: So, if you have a child where the parent is

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Speaker 1: emotionally unavailable, maybe one of the children learns, okay, I

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Speaker 1: need to be hyper independent. So they're developing the avoidant

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Speaker 1: attachment style where they're disconnected and they want to achieve

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Speaker 1: and be independent, whereas the other child may develop anxious attachment.

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Speaker 1: I need reassurance. I'm asking for a lot. I come

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Speaker 1: across as needy, and it's same experience, two different ways

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Speaker 1: of responding and coping.

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Speaker 2: Did your twin and you share an attachment style?

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Speaker 1: I would say she was definitely way more of attached

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Speaker 1: then me.

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Speaker 2: I would have thought that it's funny with twins because

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Speaker 2: you would always be there for each other, right, So

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Speaker 2: I would have assumed that twins have a secure attachment style,

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Speaker 2: I guess, because there's always someone there that you can

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Speaker 2: rely on. But one of my closest friends is a

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Speaker 2: twin and she has an anxious attachment style as well.

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Speaker 1: And one thing to really think about is when we're developing,

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Speaker 1: whether it's early on with our parents or in our teens, whenever,

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Speaker 1: if we don't have that secure figure, that person that

364
00:21:43,725 --> 00:21:47,765
Speaker 1: is showing up, that's validating our emotions, that's really making

365
00:21:47,845 --> 00:21:51,005
Speaker 1: us feel seen and heard and validated. If we don't

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Speaker 1: have that, then we're not learning how to do that

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Speaker 1: for ourselves, and we're not learning how to do that

368
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Speaker 1: for others. So my sister and I didn't really have

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Speaker 1: adults that were modeling that for us, So we didn't

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Speaker 1: learn how to do it for ourselves, and we certainly

371
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Speaker 1: we actually fought. We actually had a horrible relationship all

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Speaker 1: through out my childhood and into high school. And now

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Speaker 1: we're best friends. That's wonderful how that's worked out. But

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Speaker 1: we had experienced so much trauma that we really couldn't

375
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Speaker 1: be there for each other.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So then why if we have abandonment issues would

377
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Speaker 2: we find avoidant partners? How does that whole attraction thing

378
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Speaker 2: work depending on our attachment style? More with doctor Morgan

379
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Speaker 2: Andison after this short break. People who don't kind of

380
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Speaker 2: understand how this works. And I suppose logically you would think, well,

381
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Speaker 2: if you'd have had issues around abandonment, surely you would

382
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Speaker 2: look for a partner who was very present, who was

383
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Speaker 2: able to meet your needs. But often we repeat whatever

384
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Speaker 2: it is that's traumatized us in our childhood, is that

385
00:23:01,285 --> 00:23:03,965
Speaker 2: because it feels familiar and it's our default.

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Speaker 1: I was so glad you were asking me about this. Yes,

387
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Speaker 1: it's because it feels from it's our emotional home. And

388
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Speaker 1: I would add that there's this thing called repetition compulsion.

389
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Speaker 1: Have you heard that term? No?

390
00:23:19,765 --> 00:23:22,165
Speaker 2: Okay, but I think I can relate to it already,

391
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Speaker 2: even without having heard it before.

392
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Speaker 1: With repetition compulsion, we're repeating our same relational dynamics unconsciously.

393
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Speaker 1: It's not as if you're intentionally saying, oh, let me

394
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Speaker 1: find this emotionally unavailable person again. You're repeating it unconsciously.

395
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Speaker 1: But there's the unconscious wish that this time you would

396
00:23:45,805 --> 00:23:49,525
Speaker 1: have a different result, And your brain goes, if I

397
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Speaker 1: can get this person to love me this time, it's

398
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Speaker 1: going to make up for everything I experienced in the past.

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Speaker 2: I bet it never happens.

400
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Speaker 1: No, And it ends the same way insanity is, you know,

401
00:24:01,845 --> 00:24:03,925
Speaker 1: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a

402
00:24:03,925 --> 00:24:08,765
Speaker 1: different result. So we have these re woundings and then

403
00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:11,725
Speaker 1: we're just absolutely devastated each time.

404
00:24:12,165 --> 00:24:15,245
Speaker 2: So each time you were rejected in a romantic relationship

405
00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:19,205
Speaker 2: or abandoned, even if it was emotionally abandoned, it harked

406
00:24:19,285 --> 00:24:23,365
Speaker 2: back to that original abandonment. Yes, and so it amplified it.

407
00:24:23,485 --> 00:24:27,845
Speaker 2: Do we then overreact to something that seems quite small

408
00:24:28,045 --> 00:24:32,925
Speaker 2: but that triggers all of those memories of being abandoned

409
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Speaker 2: in the past.

410
00:24:33,965 --> 00:24:39,085
Speaker 1: Yes. I always know my clients who have insecure styles,

411
00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:41,805
Speaker 1: because you know, we can talk about a breakup can

412
00:24:41,885 --> 00:24:45,285
Speaker 1: really feel like dying because of how painful it is,

413
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Speaker 1: And you're going, man, my friends still seem to have

414
00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:52,485
Speaker 1: this difficult of a time when they're experiencing breakups. What's

415
00:24:52,645 --> 00:24:55,365
Speaker 1: wrong with me? And I can tell you it's because

416
00:24:55,405 --> 00:24:59,525
Speaker 1: of your unresolved trauma from the past and repetition compulsion.

417
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Speaker 2: How do you resolve that trauma like you can't unloose

418
00:25:03,765 --> 00:25:08,165
Speaker 2: your mother? How is that not an absolute permanent scar

419
00:25:08,365 --> 00:25:09,125
Speaker 2: in your psyche?

420
00:25:09,565 --> 00:25:12,085
Speaker 1: That's such a good question. One of the things I

421
00:25:12,205 --> 00:25:16,765
Speaker 1: find is that when we become aware of this and

422
00:25:16,805 --> 00:25:19,205
Speaker 1: we know that it's happening, and when we go back

423
00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:23,485
Speaker 1: to the original wounding and we process it from our

424
00:25:23,605 --> 00:25:29,165
Speaker 1: healthy adult, securely attached selves, that we're able to release

425
00:25:29,685 --> 00:25:34,365
Speaker 1: a lot of that unfinished business. And then in our

426
00:25:34,405 --> 00:25:37,405
Speaker 1: present day we're no longer attracted to those same types

427
00:25:37,445 --> 00:25:42,085
Speaker 1: of people, We're no longer seeking to recreate the wounds.

428
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Speaker 1: That's really the focus is going back to that core wounding,

429
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Speaker 1: processing it from that emotionally healthy adult.

430
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Speaker 2: So you can go back and go I know it

431
00:25:51,325 --> 00:25:54,925
Speaker 2: felt like she left because I was unlovable, but actually

432
00:25:55,005 --> 00:25:57,565
Speaker 2: it was just a random accident and that's not what

433
00:25:57,685 --> 00:26:01,125
Speaker 2: she wanted, and I wasn't unlovable, And so even by

434
00:26:01,165 --> 00:26:05,125
Speaker 2: taking that adult perspective and overlaying it on that childhood experience,

435
00:26:05,725 --> 00:26:07,925
Speaker 2: you can heal it. Is that how you heal it?

436
00:26:08,205 --> 00:26:12,285
Speaker 1: Yes, And of course there's always loss and grief, and

437
00:26:12,325 --> 00:26:14,925
Speaker 1: it's not to say that we don't experience grief. I

438
00:26:14,925 --> 00:26:18,085
Speaker 1: think it's really important anybody listening who's lost a parent,

439
00:26:18,205 --> 00:26:21,965
Speaker 1: you know that it's simply part of you. And I

440
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:24,725
Speaker 1: would say the powerful thing though, is examining what's the

441
00:26:24,845 --> 00:26:27,285
Speaker 1: narrative that we have, what's the story that we're telling

442
00:26:27,285 --> 00:26:30,045
Speaker 1: about it, And a lot of my spiritual work of

443
00:26:30,485 --> 00:26:33,765
Speaker 1: doing my breath work and connecting with the energy spirit

444
00:26:33,845 --> 00:26:37,605
Speaker 1: of my mom and I can just feel the love

445
00:26:37,645 --> 00:26:41,325
Speaker 1: from her and her telling me, oh, you were the

446
00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:43,885
Speaker 1: best part of my life. You know, were my twin girls.

447
00:26:43,925 --> 00:26:46,245
Speaker 1: I loved you, I adored you. And I think that

448
00:26:46,525 --> 00:26:49,965
Speaker 1: that spiritual work has also really helped me have a

449
00:26:49,965 --> 00:26:51,125
Speaker 1: deeper level of heeling.

450
00:26:51,805 --> 00:26:54,485
Speaker 2: What happened to you and your sister obviously was one

451
00:26:54,565 --> 00:26:58,525
Speaker 2: of the most extreme forms of trauma, but you don't

452
00:26:58,525 --> 00:27:03,005
Speaker 2: have to have experienced something that life changing or that

453
00:27:03,205 --> 00:27:09,125
Speaker 2: extreme to still have experienced trauma or abandonment in your childhood. Right,

454
00:27:09,325 --> 00:27:12,965
Speaker 2: it might be a grandparent dying, it might be pet dying,

455
00:27:13,045 --> 00:27:16,325
Speaker 2: it might be your parents getting divorced. Is that right?

456
00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:20,885
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think sometimes we get into this place of, well,

457
00:27:20,925 --> 00:27:23,365
Speaker 1: my trauma wasn't as bad as this person, or it

458
00:27:23,485 --> 00:27:26,805
Speaker 1: really wasn't that bad, and we almost invalidate ourselves, but

459
00:27:27,005 --> 00:27:31,165
Speaker 1: realizing that anytime there's a rupture or a wounding in

460
00:27:31,205 --> 00:27:34,565
Speaker 1: the secure attachment in your life, that that does have

461
00:27:34,605 --> 00:27:35,445
Speaker 1: an impact on you.

462
00:27:35,925 --> 00:27:38,325
Speaker 2: I was one of those people who went to therapy

463
00:27:39,045 --> 00:27:42,285
Speaker 2: when I was much younger, feeling a little bit sheepish

464
00:27:42,365 --> 00:27:45,565
Speaker 2: about going to therapy even though I was going for

465
00:27:45,845 --> 00:27:47,645
Speaker 2: I think I went for the first time because I

466
00:27:47,645 --> 00:27:50,285
Speaker 2: had an eating disorder. But I was like, yeah, no,

467
00:27:50,365 --> 00:27:52,645
Speaker 2: my childhood was fine, Like my parents are still married,

468
00:27:52,685 --> 00:27:56,045
Speaker 2: No one died, you know, there wasn't any particular trauma.

469
00:27:56,125 --> 00:27:59,285
Speaker 2: But then when we sort of unpacked things, and it's

470
00:27:59,325 --> 00:28:02,805
Speaker 2: only decades later that I've understood. You know, my brother

471
00:28:02,845 --> 00:28:05,645
Speaker 2: who I dored, who was seven years older, moved overseas

472
00:28:05,685 --> 00:28:09,245
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and my uncle who I worship,

473
00:28:09,765 --> 00:28:14,045
Speaker 2: were traveling for a year or two, and my aunt's partner.

474
00:28:14,685 --> 00:28:17,565
Speaker 2: He left and I adored him as well. So interestingly,

475
00:28:17,605 --> 00:28:19,765
Speaker 2: all these men in my life who I loved, although

476
00:28:19,765 --> 00:28:23,085
Speaker 2: not romantically, but they were like these really important figures

477
00:28:23,125 --> 00:28:26,805
Speaker 2: in my life, they all left for very good reasons.

478
00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:28,885
Speaker 2: And it's not like they died and I didn't ever

479
00:28:28,885 --> 00:28:34,005
Speaker 2: see them again. But that developed a pattern for me. Right,

480
00:28:34,125 --> 00:28:36,765
Speaker 2: So it's not even something that you would logically say, oh,

481
00:28:36,805 --> 00:28:39,325
Speaker 2: my dad's still around, I shouldn't have any abandonment is

482
00:28:39,325 --> 00:28:42,045
Speaker 2: shoes with men? So sometimes you have to dig a

483
00:28:42,085 --> 00:28:43,645
Speaker 2: little bit deeper. Is that right?

484
00:28:44,205 --> 00:28:47,725
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Absolutely? And then I get really curious about the

485
00:28:47,885 --> 00:28:52,005
Speaker 1: belief systems. Right, what are your beliefs about relationships and

486
00:28:52,045 --> 00:28:53,085
Speaker 1: beliefs about man?

487
00:28:53,845 --> 00:28:54,165
Speaker 2: Right?

488
00:28:54,245 --> 00:28:56,365
Speaker 1: And it sounds like if I was you, I might

489
00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:59,405
Speaker 1: develop the belief that man will always leave me.

490
00:29:00,085 --> 00:29:04,645
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mostly through my early twenties and late teens,

491
00:29:04,685 --> 00:29:07,205
Speaker 2: just chose guys who were permanently stoned.

492
00:29:09,045 --> 00:29:11,445
Speaker 1: That's a form of emotional and availability.

493
00:29:12,125 --> 00:29:15,885
Speaker 2: That's interesting, Yeah, it is. And then I got you know,

494
00:29:15,965 --> 00:29:18,925
Speaker 2: the definitive relationship of my life was an emotionally abusive

495
00:29:18,925 --> 00:29:22,285
Speaker 2: one with a narcissist and a drug addict, And so

496
00:29:22,525 --> 00:29:26,045
Speaker 2: that was the ultimate that's when I hit my rock bottom,

497
00:29:26,125 --> 00:29:28,085
Speaker 2: and the partner that I chose after that was a

498
00:29:28,205 --> 00:29:31,525
Speaker 2: very deliberate It's almost like you have to things have

499
00:29:31,605 --> 00:29:35,125
Speaker 2: to get so bad that you have to go right, Well,

500
00:29:35,205 --> 00:29:36,965
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that again.

501
00:29:37,605 --> 00:29:40,885
Speaker 1: Yes, and hopefully not everyone has to go through that,

502
00:29:40,925 --> 00:29:43,045
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you and I did, yeah, of

503
00:29:43,205 --> 00:29:45,525
Speaker 1: just really getting to that place of I cannot do

504
00:29:45,645 --> 00:29:48,605
Speaker 1: this again. But I think what you pointed out about

505
00:29:48,645 --> 00:29:52,165
Speaker 1: the addiction piece is actually really important. People don't always

506
00:29:52,165 --> 00:29:57,485
Speaker 1: associate someone who whether it's you know, marijuana, alcohol, whatever,

507
00:29:58,005 --> 00:30:01,805
Speaker 1: if you're in a relationship with a substance that's your

508
00:30:01,845 --> 00:30:05,005
Speaker 1: primary relationship, which that's what happens when you're an addict,

509
00:30:05,485 --> 00:30:08,525
Speaker 1: then you can't be emotionally available to a partner.

510
00:30:09,725 --> 00:30:12,805
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, the other thing I had to learn in

511
00:30:12,845 --> 00:30:16,205
Speaker 2: therapy was to depend on people and to ask for

512
00:30:16,285 --> 00:30:18,845
Speaker 2: help because I internalized this idea that I think was

513
00:30:18,885 --> 00:30:23,365
Speaker 2: probably quite common of gen X kids, that that was

514
00:30:23,405 --> 00:30:27,325
Speaker 2: the generation where our parents were the opposite of helicopters.

515
00:30:27,405 --> 00:30:30,645
Speaker 2: It was very much about free range, like they just

516
00:30:30,685 --> 00:30:33,965
Speaker 2: got on with their lives and they didn't parent as

517
00:30:33,965 --> 00:30:37,165
Speaker 2: a verb. They were parents, but they didn't parent and

518
00:30:37,245 --> 00:30:41,205
Speaker 2: It's not that we were neglected in a malevolent way.

519
00:30:41,325 --> 00:30:44,045
Speaker 2: It was kind of benevolent neglect. We just kind of

520
00:30:44,165 --> 00:30:46,885
Speaker 2: ran off and did our own thing. And I think

521
00:30:46,925 --> 00:30:49,725
Speaker 2: that what that taught a lot of us was that

522
00:30:49,765 --> 00:30:52,005
Speaker 2: we just had to take care of ourselves and that

523
00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:54,725
Speaker 2: we couldn't depend on anyone else. Do you see that

524
00:30:54,765 --> 00:30:55,845
Speaker 2: in Gen X clients?

525
00:30:56,445 --> 00:31:01,605
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Actually, it's fascinating when you look at the research,

526
00:31:02,245 --> 00:31:06,045
Speaker 1: avoid an attachment style is the fastest growing attachment style,

527
00:31:06,685 --> 00:31:08,125
Speaker 1: and I do think that there was a lot of

528
00:31:08,125 --> 00:31:12,845
Speaker 1: that cultural and influence of hyper independence being sort of

529
00:31:12,845 --> 00:31:16,405
Speaker 1: the goal of how we're supposed to be. Yeah, Unfortunately,

530
00:31:16,525 --> 00:31:18,925
Speaker 1: social media and just the age that we're in of

531
00:31:19,045 --> 00:31:21,805
Speaker 1: I call it pseudo connection for that term, we're not

532
00:31:21,845 --> 00:31:25,685
Speaker 1: really deeply connecting like we used to do. It's really

533
00:31:25,805 --> 00:31:29,525
Speaker 1: leading to more of that hyper independence. I'm an island,

534
00:31:30,405 --> 00:31:33,965
Speaker 1: I'm you know, my own person, and I can't depend

535
00:31:34,045 --> 00:31:37,365
Speaker 1: on others. There's just such an increase of that really

536
00:31:37,405 --> 00:31:38,685
Speaker 1: in our world.

537
00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:43,325
Speaker 2: Are there patterns for different ages like the gen z's,

538
00:31:43,325 --> 00:31:48,365
Speaker 2: millennials and X's have generally similar attachment styles or is

539
00:31:48,405 --> 00:31:49,325
Speaker 2: it very individual?

540
00:31:49,805 --> 00:31:52,925
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think the research I looked

541
00:31:52,925 --> 00:31:55,205
Speaker 1: at I can really speak to gen Z and that's

542
00:31:55,245 --> 00:31:58,085
Speaker 1: where they were seeing a lot of an increase in

543
00:31:58,125 --> 00:31:59,445
Speaker 1: avoidant attachment style.

544
00:31:59,885 --> 00:32:04,765
Speaker 2: That's really interesting because parenting now has become so much

545
00:32:04,845 --> 00:32:08,125
Speaker 2: about helicoptering. You know, Glenn Doyle talks about the memo

546
00:32:08,245 --> 00:32:11,285
Speaker 2: that every generation of parents gets given at the hospital

547
00:32:11,325 --> 00:32:13,885
Speaker 2: about you know, gen X's parents were like, you know,

548
00:32:14,005 --> 00:32:16,525
Speaker 2: here's a kid, go off, have your life, you know,

549
00:32:16,685 --> 00:32:18,645
Speaker 2: make sure you feed in water them and love them.

550
00:32:19,165 --> 00:32:22,445
Speaker 2: But the memo that we got as parents is do

551
00:32:22,565 --> 00:32:25,605
Speaker 2: not let this baby ever have a negative experience or

552
00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:28,485
Speaker 2: a negative emotion. You must clear every obstacle in their path.

553
00:32:29,205 --> 00:32:32,125
Speaker 2: It's like the opposite of abandonment, right. It almost breeds

554
00:32:32,485 --> 00:32:37,405
Speaker 2: a codependence. What attachment style is that likely to create?

555
00:32:37,845 --> 00:32:42,885
Speaker 1: So that can lead to both avoidant attachment or anxious attachment,

556
00:32:43,765 --> 00:32:46,685
Speaker 1: And I think we don't always associate it with avoidant attachment,

557
00:32:46,765 --> 00:32:49,085
Speaker 1: but think about it this way. If you have that

558
00:32:49,165 --> 00:32:53,925
Speaker 1: feeling of wow, this person is intrusive, right, being sort

559
00:32:53,965 --> 00:32:57,205
Speaker 1: of almost taken over, then that that teaches you that

560
00:32:57,245 --> 00:33:01,525
Speaker 1: intimacy does not feel good. So avoidant attachment can be

561
00:33:01,605 --> 00:33:06,365
Speaker 1: sort of a rebellion to helicopter parenting of Okay, I'm

562
00:33:06,365 --> 00:33:08,805
Speaker 1: going to go be an island because intimacy does not

563
00:33:08,845 --> 00:33:09,285
Speaker 1: feel seen.

564
00:33:10,325 --> 00:33:13,405
Speaker 2: Are you learning so much? I am learning so much.

565
00:33:13,445 --> 00:33:16,445
Speaker 2: So much is making sense to me about my past,

566
00:33:17,045 --> 00:33:21,045
Speaker 2: about my present, and not just my romantic relationships, but

567
00:33:21,125 --> 00:33:24,045
Speaker 2: friendships and other relationships as well. And I guess I

568
00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:29,365
Speaker 2: never really understood the difference between interdependency and codependency the

569
00:33:29,405 --> 00:33:33,085
Speaker 2: way she explained it so clearly. That was actually amazing,

570
00:33:33,165 --> 00:33:36,965
Speaker 2: particularly for those of us who were consider ourselves really independent.

571
00:33:37,885 --> 00:33:41,605
Speaker 2: Repetition compulsion is another really useful term that I had

572
00:33:41,645 --> 00:33:45,565
Speaker 2: never heard of before. That really helped me understand why

573
00:33:45,645 --> 00:33:48,005
Speaker 2: so many of us seek out relationships that trigger us

574
00:33:48,405 --> 00:33:51,605
Speaker 2: instead of healers and makes a lot of sense. I

575
00:33:51,645 --> 00:33:55,965
Speaker 2: had a ton more questions for Dr Morgan, including the

576
00:33:56,005 --> 00:33:58,965
Speaker 2: science of the ick. I wanted to understand how attachment

577
00:33:59,005 --> 00:34:02,325
Speaker 2: theory plays into the ick and what are five things

578
00:34:02,645 --> 00:34:05,765
Speaker 2: that she would never allow in a relationship again, And

579
00:34:05,805 --> 00:34:09,645
Speaker 2: also I wanted to understand about sex and desire because

580
00:34:09,645 --> 00:34:11,445
Speaker 2: she's got a lot to say about that. That's all

581
00:34:11,445 --> 00:34:14,205
Speaker 2: in Part two. I'll meet you there. There's a link

582
00:34:14,285 --> 00:34:15,125
Speaker 2: in the show notes