1 00:00:11,445 --> 00:00:16,364 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,445 --> 00:00:19,724 Speaker 1: traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:19,805 --> 00:00:20,685 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:27,165 --> 00:00:30,245 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I am Jess 5 00:00:30,325 --> 00:00:33,925 Speaker 2: Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we're 6 00:00:33,965 --> 00:00:36,605 Speaker 2: here to talk about some of the stories that dominated 7 00:00:36,604 --> 00:00:39,485 Speaker 2: the week, because if parents are thinking about it, we 8 00:00:39,525 --> 00:00:43,125 Speaker 2: are talking about it. Welcome Amelia. How was your week? 9 00:00:43,325 --> 00:00:46,805 Speaker 1: Look? It's been stressful. I'm tracking a parcel on the 10 00:00:46,845 --> 00:00:48,805 Speaker 1: Australia Post app. Have you been there? 11 00:00:49,165 --> 00:00:49,885 Speaker 2: Have I been there? 12 00:00:49,965 --> 00:00:53,085 Speaker 1: Yep. I decided I needed to buy a dress for 13 00:00:53,165 --> 00:00:57,125 Speaker 1: a very important upcoming social event. And you know how 14 00:00:57,205 --> 00:00:59,965 Speaker 1: whenever you need a piece of clothing for something you 15 00:01:00,005 --> 00:01:02,725 Speaker 1: can never find it. No, so I went online and 16 00:01:02,765 --> 00:01:04,525 Speaker 1: I bought a dress. I've never tried it on before 17 00:01:04,605 --> 00:01:07,285 Speaker 1: and it may or may not work. It probably won't work, 18 00:01:07,325 --> 00:01:10,244 Speaker 1: given how online shopping turns out for me, and or like, 19 00:01:10,524 --> 00:01:12,565 Speaker 1: think of is when is this dress going to get 20 00:01:12,605 --> 00:01:15,205 Speaker 1: to me? I left the house this morning for like 21 00:01:15,405 --> 00:01:18,964 Speaker 1: half an hour. Guess what happened? It a right, So 22 00:01:19,045 --> 00:01:21,204 Speaker 1: now I have to make the trip into the post 23 00:01:21,205 --> 00:01:21,924 Speaker 1: office for. 24 00:01:21,804 --> 00:01:24,604 Speaker 2: It, which is strictly only open when you are at 25 00:01:24,604 --> 00:01:29,524 Speaker 2: work or on today's show? Should parents talk each other up? More? 26 00:01:29,645 --> 00:01:32,205 Speaker 2: Co parenting and how you talk about your current or 27 00:01:32,205 --> 00:01:34,884 Speaker 2: ex partner is everywhere at the moment, and we want 28 00:01:34,925 --> 00:01:39,365 Speaker 2: to know what are the rules. Plus apparently it's okay 29 00:01:39,565 --> 00:01:42,765 Speaker 2: to let your kids play with makeup. Amelia is armed 30 00:01:42,765 --> 00:01:46,084 Speaker 2: with a feminist defense and I am open minded but skeptical. 31 00:01:46,524 --> 00:01:49,325 Speaker 2: And Ellen Pompei's quote that had us asking if mothers 32 00:01:49,365 --> 00:01:53,085 Speaker 2: can ever really give one hundred percent at work? But first, 33 00:01:53,565 --> 00:01:56,044 Speaker 2: in case you missed it, there has been a question 34 00:01:56,285 --> 00:01:59,805 Speaker 2: dominating TikTok recently, which is how much do you pay 35 00:01:59,845 --> 00:02:02,285 Speaker 2: for kids' haircut? Amelia, what's your gut response? 36 00:02:02,645 --> 00:02:04,885 Speaker 1: This is a difficult one for me. I'm a curly 37 00:02:04,965 --> 00:02:08,525 Speaker 1: haired girl and I have curly head children, and I 38 00:02:08,645 --> 00:02:12,085 Speaker 1: know that my curly head listeners. We'll understand why we 39 00:02:12,165 --> 00:02:15,645 Speaker 1: can't give simple answers to questions about haircuts. I'm sorry, 40 00:02:15,725 --> 00:02:17,925 Speaker 1: I know you asked for a gut response. It's not 41 00:02:17,965 --> 00:02:20,085 Speaker 1: going to happen. I need to tell you a story. Okay, 42 00:02:20,485 --> 00:02:23,125 Speaker 1: So I don't know where to get my kid's haircut. 43 00:02:23,245 --> 00:02:26,485 Speaker 1: I went to a fancy salon in my neighborhood that 44 00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:30,645 Speaker 1: was recommended on my class group chat. Okay, we go in. 45 00:02:31,005 --> 00:02:33,205 Speaker 1: The First sign that this is not the right place 46 00:02:33,205 --> 00:02:35,925 Speaker 1: for us to be is that the children are given 47 00:02:36,165 --> 00:02:39,365 Speaker 1: a biscotti which I'm pretty sure was flavored with aniseed. 48 00:02:39,725 --> 00:02:41,885 Speaker 2: Oh wow. Were they offered a latte? 49 00:02:44,565 --> 00:02:46,925 Speaker 1: They were probably offered a mimosa. I don't think an 50 00:02:46,925 --> 00:02:50,885 Speaker 1: aniseed biscotti is really the flavor profile of kids snacks. 51 00:02:51,565 --> 00:02:53,565 Speaker 1: But I was like, okay, this is maybe not a 52 00:02:53,605 --> 00:02:55,725 Speaker 1: good decision. But anyway, they went off to get their 53 00:02:55,725 --> 00:02:56,765 Speaker 1: hair washed at the sink. 54 00:02:56,965 --> 00:02:59,045 Speaker 2: I have a question about that. Is that worth it 55 00:02:59,485 --> 00:03:00,565 Speaker 2: to get the hair washed? 56 00:03:00,685 --> 00:03:02,285 Speaker 1: You know what? I don't have an answer for you. 57 00:03:02,365 --> 00:03:06,365 Speaker 1: And here's why I'm sitting eating my aniseed biscotti, which 58 00:03:06,445 --> 00:03:09,325 Speaker 1: was oddly bitter, I have to say. And then the 59 00:03:09,605 --> 00:03:11,925 Speaker 1: very nice haird it comes back to me. She tucks 60 00:03:11,925 --> 00:03:14,285 Speaker 1: me on the shoulder and she whispers in my ear, 61 00:03:14,405 --> 00:03:16,245 Speaker 1: what do you think it was? Was it a sweet? Nothing? 62 00:03:16,445 --> 00:03:18,445 Speaker 1: Was it? Would you like more annisey piscotti? 63 00:03:18,645 --> 00:03:21,445 Speaker 2: I think that she's found she's found something. 64 00:03:21,245 --> 00:03:24,725 Speaker 1: Like found something living and it was lie. So we 65 00:03:24,805 --> 00:03:26,885 Speaker 1: ran out and now I have to cross the street 66 00:03:26,965 --> 00:03:29,205 Speaker 1: every time I walk past that salon. 67 00:03:29,605 --> 00:03:33,005 Speaker 2: Okay, what happened is that this woman named Millie was 68 00:03:33,045 --> 00:03:36,565 Speaker 2: on TikTok and she took her daughter to the hairdresser. 69 00:03:36,685 --> 00:03:39,245 Speaker 2: She didn't ask how much. She was expecting thirty forty 70 00:03:39,285 --> 00:03:42,325 Speaker 2: bucks right, and she was charged one hundred and twenty, 71 00:03:42,725 --> 00:03:45,365 Speaker 2: which is that's more than I would expect my haircut 72 00:03:45,405 --> 00:03:48,725 Speaker 2: to be. And so this got everyone talking about how 73 00:03:48,805 --> 00:03:50,765 Speaker 2: much it should be. You raise a good point, which 74 00:03:50,805 --> 00:03:53,765 Speaker 2: is the risk hairdressers are taking when they touch children 75 00:03:54,405 --> 00:03:58,365 Speaker 2: on the head is just so so high, like the 76 00:03:58,445 --> 00:04:01,445 Speaker 2: chances that they have lies. I remember distinctly as a 77 00:04:01,525 --> 00:04:04,845 Speaker 2: kid going in. Things were found not good. They always 78 00:04:05,085 --> 00:04:07,845 Speaker 2: stop the haircut. It's very sad, but we ask. 79 00:04:07,925 --> 00:04:10,565 Speaker 1: They probably put photos of us out the back, so 80 00:04:10,685 --> 00:04:12,565 Speaker 1: like warn them if we ever came back in. 81 00:04:12,525 --> 00:04:14,805 Speaker 2: They ever come in. We went to out louders and 82 00:04:14,805 --> 00:04:17,245 Speaker 2: we were like, what is the cost of a haircut 83 00:04:17,325 --> 00:04:21,325 Speaker 2: that you would expect today? The average was about forty 84 00:04:21,365 --> 00:04:24,005 Speaker 2: two dollars. But there was this story from an out 85 00:04:24,005 --> 00:04:27,045 Speaker 2: louder who moved to Melbourne. She took her two children 86 00:04:27,125 --> 00:04:31,525 Speaker 2: to a chain hairdresser, budget hairdresser, not fancy Nobiscotti. They 87 00:04:31,565 --> 00:04:34,565 Speaker 2: didn't ask the price before, and as she left and 88 00:04:34,645 --> 00:04:36,885 Speaker 2: went to pay for it, it was one hundred and 89 00:04:36,885 --> 00:04:39,925 Speaker 2: seventy dollars for both of them, a trim and a wash, 90 00:04:40,605 --> 00:04:43,565 Speaker 2: and she said, I nearly died. Needless to say, my 91 00:04:43,645 --> 00:04:45,845 Speaker 2: mother in law will be cutting their hair from now on. 92 00:04:46,205 --> 00:04:50,285 Speaker 2: My mum took my niece to get her first haircut 93 00:04:50,325 --> 00:04:50,805 Speaker 2: the other day. 94 00:04:50,965 --> 00:04:51,205 Speaker 1: Yeah. 95 00:04:51,245 --> 00:04:54,925 Speaker 2: And did you know that just Cuts does under twelve 96 00:04:54,925 --> 00:04:57,525 Speaker 2: months free first haircut. I did not, And they give 97 00:04:57,525 --> 00:04:59,445 Speaker 2: it to you in a little envelope. My uncle is 98 00:04:59,485 --> 00:05:00,605 Speaker 2: the founder of just Cut. 99 00:05:00,965 --> 00:05:03,765 Speaker 1: This is such a heartwarming story. We hear all these 100 00:05:03,805 --> 00:05:07,405 Speaker 1: things about companies squeezing profit margins. Just Cuts is out there, 101 00:05:07,445 --> 00:05:10,085 Speaker 1: get out little bits of hearing envelopes exactly. 102 00:05:10,085 --> 00:05:13,045 Speaker 2: I g up with my uncle doing the like boldkhat 103 00:05:13,205 --> 00:05:16,045 Speaker 2: or whatever, and now he started Just Cuts and ended 104 00:05:16,125 --> 00:05:18,565 Speaker 2: up being quite the success story. But that is his rule. 105 00:05:18,685 --> 00:05:21,445 Speaker 2: So you go to juscuts and you say, even if 106 00:05:21,485 --> 00:05:23,125 Speaker 2: they're five or I can just be like, yeah to 107 00:05:23,165 --> 00:05:26,085 Speaker 2: twelve months, they just very highly developed. Your kids could 108 00:05:26,125 --> 00:05:28,045 Speaker 2: passes eleven months old. 109 00:05:28,045 --> 00:05:33,085 Speaker 1: Surely I think that's a compliment. Is building up your 110 00:05:33,125 --> 00:05:35,645 Speaker 1: co parent in the eyes of your children. Part of 111 00:05:35,725 --> 00:05:38,365 Speaker 1: being a good parent. I have to admit I had 112 00:05:38,405 --> 00:05:41,725 Speaker 1: literally never thought about this before. I read a substack 113 00:05:41,805 --> 00:05:45,205 Speaker 1: about it recently, and now I cannot stop thinking about it. 114 00:05:45,685 --> 00:05:49,285 Speaker 1: This was in the Cuts Brooding newsletter by Catherine Geza Morton. 115 00:05:49,765 --> 00:05:52,045 Speaker 1: She asked this question and I was reminded of it 116 00:05:52,125 --> 00:05:55,205 Speaker 1: because co parenting and how to talk about it has 117 00:05:55,285 --> 00:05:58,245 Speaker 1: been in the news first. I'm sure everyone saw that. 118 00:05:58,245 --> 00:06:01,125 Speaker 1: Deboraly Furnace released a statement to the media following her 119 00:06:01,125 --> 00:06:04,125 Speaker 1: divorce from Hugh Jackman. She said her heart went out 120 00:06:04,125 --> 00:06:08,285 Speaker 1: to everyone who has traversed the traumatic journey of betrayal. 121 00:06:09,485 --> 00:06:13,085 Speaker 1: They have two children together. The second was also recently. 122 00:06:13,165 --> 00:06:16,765 Speaker 1: Joe Jonas, who shares two daughters with Sophie Turner, talked 123 00:06:16,805 --> 00:06:20,445 Speaker 1: about their beautiful dynamic on Jay Shetty's podcast, which I 124 00:06:20,445 --> 00:06:22,045 Speaker 1: guess everyone listens to except me. 125 00:06:22,245 --> 00:06:22,925 Speaker 2: Yes correct. 126 00:06:23,085 --> 00:06:26,125 Speaker 1: He said, having an incredible mom Sophie for these girls 127 00:06:26,205 --> 00:06:29,765 Speaker 1: is like a dream come true. He said, whether you're 128 00:06:29,765 --> 00:06:32,045 Speaker 1: still legally attached to your co parent or not, I 129 00:06:32,085 --> 00:06:34,845 Speaker 1: think that this is a really interesting question to explore 130 00:06:34,885 --> 00:06:38,005 Speaker 1: because every time I ask someone, it inevitably brings up 131 00:06:38,285 --> 00:06:41,964 Speaker 1: memories and thoughts about their childhoods and how they're bringing 132 00:06:42,005 --> 00:06:45,605 Speaker 1: their childhood experiences to parenting now, Jesse, which is to say, 133 00:06:45,645 --> 00:06:48,165 Speaker 1: have you thought about this? Do you? Gus luker Up? 134 00:06:48,645 --> 00:06:51,925 Speaker 2: I had not thought about it until you brought it up, 135 00:06:52,085 --> 00:06:54,965 Speaker 2: and it made me think about an experience I had 136 00:06:55,045 --> 00:06:58,645 Speaker 2: recently where I realized that we had stopped thanking each 137 00:06:58,645 --> 00:07:02,964 Speaker 2: other for seemingly tiny things like unstacking the dishwasherola? Not 138 00:07:03,125 --> 00:07:05,805 Speaker 2: all the time, but there are certain acts that you 139 00:07:05,885 --> 00:07:07,525 Speaker 2: do that I don't care if you've been together for 140 00:07:07,605 --> 00:07:10,365 Speaker 2: five minutes or fifty years. You should thank each other, 141 00:07:10,525 --> 00:07:12,085 Speaker 2: Like when someone makes you a coffee and puts it 142 00:07:12,085 --> 00:07:15,245 Speaker 2: in front of you. It's like such a basic human act. 143 00:07:15,885 --> 00:07:19,245 Speaker 2: When you're raising a child or children, I think that 144 00:07:19,645 --> 00:07:22,285 Speaker 2: most of what they learn is through example and through modeling. 145 00:07:22,325 --> 00:07:25,165 Speaker 2: So you kind of go, oh, we're treating each other 146 00:07:25,765 --> 00:07:28,325 Speaker 2: not in an ideal way here, So I've kind of 147 00:07:28,365 --> 00:07:31,125 Speaker 2: reintroduced the idea of thank you. 148 00:07:31,245 --> 00:07:32,285 Speaker 1: How does it make you feel? 149 00:07:32,525 --> 00:07:35,365 Speaker 2: I found that when we didn't say thank you, it 150 00:07:35,445 --> 00:07:38,965 Speaker 2: was like it was just this expectation rather than we 151 00:07:38,965 --> 00:07:42,685 Speaker 2: were two adults helping each other out. There's a book 152 00:07:42,725 --> 00:07:44,645 Speaker 2: called How Not to Hate your Husband After Kids? 153 00:07:44,685 --> 00:07:47,005 Speaker 1: Have you heard about this book, No tell me about it. 154 00:07:47,125 --> 00:07:51,605 Speaker 2: She as a journalist, and she wrote this book after 155 00:07:51,725 --> 00:07:54,925 Speaker 2: she realized how much she hated us A great title 156 00:07:55,045 --> 00:07:58,405 Speaker 2: is such a good title. And she found that ninety 157 00:07:58,405 --> 00:08:01,525 Speaker 2: five percent of the couple she spoke to said that 158 00:08:01,605 --> 00:08:04,845 Speaker 2: they really struggled after having a baby, and that in fact, 159 00:08:05,325 --> 00:08:09,125 Speaker 2: your relationship satisfaction goes down. So whether it's one baby, 160 00:08:09,325 --> 00:08:13,405 Speaker 2: apparently the more kids, the more than relationship satisfaction goes down. 161 00:08:13,885 --> 00:08:16,645 Speaker 2: And a lot of people will have memories in their 162 00:08:16,685 --> 00:08:23,205 Speaker 2: household of fighting, of put downs, of people being passive 163 00:08:23,205 --> 00:08:26,525 Speaker 2: aggressive towards each other, and I think sometimes it gives 164 00:08:26,565 --> 00:08:30,085 Speaker 2: license to the children to either adopt that or see 165 00:08:30,125 --> 00:08:33,205 Speaker 2: a parent in a less respectful light. So I thought 166 00:08:33,245 --> 00:08:36,165 Speaker 2: this was such a pertinent point at a time when 167 00:08:36,204 --> 00:08:38,165 Speaker 2: we are talking more than ever about division of the 168 00:08:38,204 --> 00:08:41,285 Speaker 2: domestic load, which gives way to a lot of conversations. 169 00:08:41,324 --> 00:08:45,045 Speaker 2: We're constantly over communicating, sometimes being like I did this 170 00:08:45,205 --> 00:08:48,085 Speaker 2: your turn, blah blah blah, point scoring. I'm very good 171 00:08:48,125 --> 00:08:51,365 Speaker 2: at point scoring. But yeah, I thought that's such a 172 00:08:51,405 --> 00:08:53,325 Speaker 2: good point that at a time when we're doing that, 173 00:08:53,365 --> 00:08:55,645 Speaker 2: we've also got a model good language. 174 00:08:55,925 --> 00:08:57,685 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great point, and in this 175 00:08:57,725 --> 00:09:01,845 Speaker 1: Brooding newsletter, she asks some people to explain why they 176 00:09:01,925 --> 00:09:03,805 Speaker 1: made a habit of praising their co parent. Because the 177 00:09:03,845 --> 00:09:05,965 Speaker 1: interesting thing is she did this quick survey and ask 178 00:09:06,045 --> 00:09:08,245 Speaker 1: people if they did it, and a lot of people 179 00:09:08,405 --> 00:09:10,285 Speaker 1: felt the same as us. They had never thought about 180 00:09:10,285 --> 00:09:14,005 Speaker 1: it before, but then given the proposition, well do you 181 00:09:14,085 --> 00:09:16,445 Speaker 1: praise your partner or your co parent, they started to 182 00:09:16,485 --> 00:09:18,845 Speaker 1: think that they probably should. So here are some themes 183 00:09:18,845 --> 00:09:21,765 Speaker 1: that emerged from people who were doing it. Many parents 184 00:09:21,765 --> 00:09:23,685 Speaker 1: were trying to lead by example. They wanted to teach 185 00:09:23,725 --> 00:09:26,605 Speaker 1: their kids the importance of giving and receiving love in 186 00:09:26,645 --> 00:09:28,445 Speaker 1: the form of praise, which I think is a really 187 00:09:28,525 --> 00:09:31,925 Speaker 1: nice idea. This was interesting. Some felt like they were 188 00:09:32,005 --> 00:09:35,204 Speaker 1: kind of building the scaffolding in case their relationship hit 189 00:09:35,205 --> 00:09:37,765 Speaker 1: a rough patch. So it's like, if we bank some 190 00:09:37,845 --> 00:09:42,005 Speaker 1: goodwill and gratitude now and create that strong bond through that, 191 00:09:42,165 --> 00:09:44,324 Speaker 1: then when we hit rocky times, we can kind of 192 00:09:44,405 --> 00:09:47,725 Speaker 1: draw on the bank account of praise and gratitude. And 193 00:09:47,765 --> 00:09:50,645 Speaker 1: then another one was interesting, This is a little bit 194 00:09:50,685 --> 00:09:52,925 Speaker 1: like what you were saying, trying to build a family 195 00:09:52,965 --> 00:09:55,525 Speaker 1: culture that's different from the one that they grew up in. 196 00:09:55,725 --> 00:09:58,205 Speaker 2: The author I was talking about before. She said we 197 00:09:58,245 --> 00:10:00,805 Speaker 2: save our best selves for our children, and I don't 198 00:10:00,805 --> 00:10:03,765 Speaker 2: think that's always the best example for the children, right 199 00:10:04,005 --> 00:10:06,045 Speaker 2: to see that you speak to them in a certain way. 200 00:10:06,405 --> 00:10:09,925 Speaker 2: My patience for Luna is beyond anything I imagined I 201 00:10:09,925 --> 00:10:14,005 Speaker 2: could ever have, But my patience for Luca has severely reduced. 202 00:10:14,325 --> 00:10:17,325 Speaker 2: So while you've got a sick baby who's screaming, and 203 00:10:17,405 --> 00:10:20,045 Speaker 2: you go, I can't ever take my frustration out on her. 204 00:10:20,445 --> 00:10:23,205 Speaker 2: I've seen moments where we do it to each other, 205 00:10:23,325 --> 00:10:25,685 Speaker 2: like can I think further frustration? And I think that 206 00:10:25,685 --> 00:10:29,365 Speaker 2: that's inevitable to an extent. But I really liked the 207 00:10:29,485 --> 00:10:32,685 Speaker 2: idea that we've heard this reluctance. And there's kind of 208 00:10:32,725 --> 00:10:35,684 Speaker 2: this conservative criticism of divorce and the impact that might 209 00:10:35,685 --> 00:10:39,125 Speaker 2: have on kids, But the everyday verbal japs that you 210 00:10:39,205 --> 00:10:42,525 Speaker 2: might have and even a loving marriage can't be good either. 211 00:10:42,805 --> 00:10:44,765 Speaker 2: It's an interesting new way to look at it. 212 00:10:45,005 --> 00:10:49,005 Speaker 1: There's also some people who are reluctant to engage in 213 00:10:49,045 --> 00:10:52,084 Speaker 1: this habit because they feel like it's adopting a bit 214 00:10:52,085 --> 00:10:55,605 Speaker 1: of a kind of retro mother worship dynamic, you know, 215 00:10:55,805 --> 00:10:59,045 Speaker 1: like mother does everything for us, isn't she amazing? And 216 00:10:59,125 --> 00:11:02,645 Speaker 1: kind of emphasizing the idea of the all giving mother. 217 00:11:03,245 --> 00:11:05,685 Speaker 1: I think it's also hard to receive praise sometimes because 218 00:11:05,685 --> 00:11:09,325 Speaker 1: you get suspicious about maybe why someone's doing it. But 219 00:11:09,565 --> 00:11:12,365 Speaker 1: I feel we all like what a lot of people 220 00:11:12,405 --> 00:11:15,525 Speaker 1: who were surveyed here said was they started doing it 221 00:11:15,605 --> 00:11:18,045 Speaker 1: and then they noticed changes, which is why I asked 222 00:11:18,045 --> 00:11:20,324 Speaker 1: you how you were feeling about doing it. Once you've 223 00:11:20,405 --> 00:11:24,045 Speaker 1: established a habit, people say that it makes their children 224 00:11:24,125 --> 00:11:27,125 Speaker 1: treat them better too, because they're modeling how to be 225 00:11:27,245 --> 00:11:30,605 Speaker 1: in a civil give and take relationship. And the author 226 00:11:30,605 --> 00:11:34,045 Speaker 1: of Brooding said that once she started both accepting and 227 00:11:34,125 --> 00:11:37,085 Speaker 1: giving out praise to her co parent, her children started 228 00:11:37,125 --> 00:11:39,005 Speaker 1: asking her how her day was more. 229 00:11:38,845 --> 00:11:42,325 Speaker 2: Often, oh, my goodness, unheard of. It also gave me 230 00:11:42,645 --> 00:11:48,245 Speaker 2: a lot more compassionate understanding for the celebrity statements that 231 00:11:48,285 --> 00:11:51,405 Speaker 2: we often hear, so the conscious uncoupling of Gwyneth and Chris, 232 00:11:51,565 --> 00:11:55,165 Speaker 2: for example, or the mutual respect that we often hear, 233 00:11:55,165 --> 00:11:57,685 Speaker 2: and we roll our eyes because we think it seems inauthentic. 234 00:11:58,165 --> 00:12:02,804 Speaker 2: But I really respect parents who go we're going to uncouple, 235 00:12:03,245 --> 00:12:06,525 Speaker 2: but we are going to speak about each other respectfully always, 236 00:12:06,765 --> 00:12:08,765 Speaker 2: because when we don't that doesn't end well. 237 00:12:08,965 --> 00:12:11,564 Speaker 1: Yeah. Another good example of that is Willison to Me Moore. 238 00:12:12,205 --> 00:12:15,765 Speaker 1: Demi Moore has spoken openly about how they'll always be 239 00:12:15,805 --> 00:12:18,525 Speaker 1: a family. They've been divorced for some time now, just 240 00:12:18,565 --> 00:12:21,084 Speaker 1: in a different form. I do want to, though, leave 241 00:12:21,125 --> 00:12:25,205 Speaker 1: a bit of space for Deborah le to express herself. 242 00:12:25,325 --> 00:12:28,045 Speaker 1: I think to me that's a slightly different point from 243 00:12:28,525 --> 00:12:31,925 Speaker 1: whether you're making a habit of praising your partner, because 244 00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:36,805 Speaker 1: I think there's something refreshing about Debora le Furnace being 245 00:12:37,245 --> 00:12:39,725 Speaker 1: honest about what happened. 246 00:12:40,125 --> 00:12:42,365 Speaker 2: I think you can also praise someone as a parent 247 00:12:43,125 --> 00:12:45,605 Speaker 2: while also acknowledging that maybe they weren't the perfect husband. 248 00:12:45,765 --> 00:12:46,245 Speaker 1: Great point. 249 00:12:47,325 --> 00:12:50,645 Speaker 2: Just let your kids play with makeup. That's the title 250 00:12:50,765 --> 00:12:53,365 Speaker 2: of a column in The Atlantic I stumbled upon recently 251 00:12:53,805 --> 00:12:56,525 Speaker 2: which argues that your daughter or son playing with makeup 252 00:12:56,645 --> 00:13:01,285 Speaker 2: is not a red flag. Apparently, when kids imitate applying lipstick, 253 00:13:01,445 --> 00:13:05,445 Speaker 2: it's developmentally normal and a really healthy part of role playing. 254 00:13:05,765 --> 00:13:09,045 Speaker 2: In fact, our fear of it says something about how 255 00:13:09,125 --> 00:13:12,285 Speaker 2: we put down girls culture. We don't bristle in the 256 00:13:12,285 --> 00:13:16,125 Speaker 2: same way when boys play with cars. For example, Amelia, 257 00:13:16,205 --> 00:13:18,445 Speaker 2: I feel like the feminist books I've read told me 258 00:13:18,645 --> 00:13:20,925 Speaker 2: that this is very bad and that I'm socializing my 259 00:13:21,045 --> 00:13:23,525 Speaker 2: daughter to think she needs to alter her appearance in 260 00:13:23,645 --> 00:13:26,285 Speaker 2: order to be considered beautiful, which is her currency as 261 00:13:26,285 --> 00:13:28,405 Speaker 2: a female in the world. And she doesn't see her 262 00:13:28,485 --> 00:13:31,485 Speaker 2: dad putting on makeup? Am I a cog in the 263 00:13:31,485 --> 00:13:32,604 Speaker 2: patriarchy machine? 264 00:13:32,685 --> 00:13:36,005 Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk about this because I 265 00:13:36,165 --> 00:13:38,525 Speaker 1: want to mount a feminist case for makeup. 266 00:13:38,525 --> 00:13:40,005 Speaker 2: Oh my god, play ready to go? Yes. 267 00:13:40,845 --> 00:13:44,925 Speaker 1: The more you lean into makeup as a form of artifice, 268 00:13:44,965 --> 00:13:47,845 Speaker 1: as a toy, as a fun thing, the less it 269 00:13:47,885 --> 00:13:51,685 Speaker 1: becomes this mysterious necessity of adult womanhood. I think the 270 00:13:51,725 --> 00:13:53,965 Speaker 1: more mystique you build around it, and if you keep 271 00:13:54,005 --> 00:13:56,725 Speaker 1: your children away from the fun little gold tubes, and 272 00:13:56,805 --> 00:13:59,085 Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't children want to play with this stuff? 273 00:13:59,125 --> 00:14:01,564 Speaker 1: It is essentially like a box of crayons, accept more 274 00:14:01,605 --> 00:14:05,965 Speaker 1: fun and expensive. The more you're making it seem like 275 00:14:06,125 --> 00:14:10,485 Speaker 1: something that only adult women can indulge in or play with. 276 00:14:10,645 --> 00:14:12,885 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important that a we make 277 00:14:12,925 --> 00:14:15,285 Speaker 1: clear that makeup is fun. It is not a necessity. 278 00:14:15,525 --> 00:14:17,804 Speaker 1: It is not something that you need to hide yourself 279 00:14:17,885 --> 00:14:21,765 Speaker 1: or camouflage yourself. It's just a fun thing. And then two. 280 00:14:21,885 --> 00:14:23,925 Speaker 1: The more we decouple it from the idea of it's 281 00:14:24,085 --> 00:14:28,125 Speaker 1: just something used by women, So girls and boys are 282 00:14:28,125 --> 00:14:31,165 Speaker 1: attracted to the bright colors of makeup, let them play 283 00:14:31,205 --> 00:14:34,405 Speaker 1: with it. The more we demystify, I think, the less 284 00:14:34,845 --> 00:14:38,405 Speaker 1: power and importance is placed on it as a necessary 285 00:14:38,565 --> 00:14:40,005 Speaker 1: ritual of being a woman. 286 00:14:40,405 --> 00:14:43,285 Speaker 2: You make a really good point because playing with your 287 00:14:43,325 --> 00:14:47,485 Speaker 2: appearance is a developmental master. So there's a recognizing in 288 00:14:47,485 --> 00:14:50,325 Speaker 2: the mirror. Then having control over your appearance or knowing 289 00:14:50,365 --> 00:14:52,845 Speaker 2: that you can manipulate it or choose what you wear, 290 00:14:53,605 --> 00:14:57,045 Speaker 2: is something that every kid is going to go through, right, 291 00:14:57,205 --> 00:15:02,565 Speaker 2: So I understand embracing that. What I struggle with is 292 00:15:02,645 --> 00:15:07,245 Speaker 2: the way in which brands have got their claws into it. 293 00:15:07,845 --> 00:15:11,245 Speaker 2: There are some makeup companies, there's in the US. It 294 00:15:11,325 --> 00:15:14,325 Speaker 2: is literally marketed to three year olds three plus, and 295 00:15:15,005 --> 00:15:20,805 Speaker 2: they have used images or like cartoons or beloved toys 296 00:15:20,965 --> 00:15:23,725 Speaker 2: that my daughter plays with to go this is for 297 00:15:23,765 --> 00:15:26,325 Speaker 2: you to make it look fun and exciting. And as 298 00:15:26,405 --> 00:15:29,685 Speaker 2: much as makeup is fun and I love makeup, I 299 00:15:29,685 --> 00:15:32,725 Speaker 2: would be lying if I said it didn't also play 300 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:36,365 Speaker 2: a role in feeling as though I need to present 301 00:15:36,605 --> 00:15:39,325 Speaker 2: in a certain way to the world. Obviously, if I 302 00:15:39,365 --> 00:15:41,445 Speaker 2: do television, I sit in a chair for an hour, 303 00:15:41,565 --> 00:15:44,165 Speaker 2: whereas the male co host gets ten minutes. There are 304 00:15:44,205 --> 00:15:46,925 Speaker 2: things like that that we can't reconcile in a home necessarily. 305 00:15:47,445 --> 00:15:51,445 Speaker 2: But there is something deeply unequal and patriarchal about the 306 00:15:51,485 --> 00:15:52,365 Speaker 2: practice of makeup. 307 00:15:52,445 --> 00:15:54,965 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, damn it, you've just remembered in old case. 308 00:15:55,325 --> 00:15:57,685 Speaker 1: I think you've raised some really good points. There's something 309 00:15:58,045 --> 00:16:02,245 Speaker 1: strangely circular about marketing makeup to three year olds, in 310 00:16:02,285 --> 00:16:06,085 Speaker 1: the sense that why a lot of women wear makeup 311 00:16:06,285 --> 00:16:10,245 Speaker 1: is because we are taught that it makes us look younger, 312 00:16:10,685 --> 00:16:12,925 Speaker 1: and so we put blush on our cheeks because as 313 00:16:12,965 --> 00:16:15,885 Speaker 1: you get older, you lose color in your cheeks, and 314 00:16:15,925 --> 00:16:18,725 Speaker 1: we put mascara on because as you get older, where 315 00:16:18,725 --> 00:16:22,925 Speaker 1: do your lashes go? Side note all pigment, And because 316 00:16:22,925 --> 00:16:25,405 Speaker 1: you're losing pigment, that's why you're applying more makeup as 317 00:16:25,445 --> 00:16:28,045 Speaker 1: you get older. So the thinking goes. So there's something 318 00:16:28,205 --> 00:16:34,885 Speaker 1: so odd about then, teaching three year olds to look young. 319 00:16:35,125 --> 00:16:39,445 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to market to them. I have seen videos 320 00:16:39,445 --> 00:16:42,565 Speaker 2: come up of twelve year olds using anti aging products 321 00:16:42,765 --> 00:16:46,285 Speaker 2: like that's been absorbed. I mean, the whole skincare trend 322 00:16:46,685 --> 00:16:51,245 Speaker 2: is unbelievable and has literally put a rocket up the 323 00:16:51,325 --> 00:16:55,085 Speaker 2: markets of skincare and makeup. And there was this example 324 00:16:55,405 --> 00:16:58,925 Speaker 2: a few years ago of a makeup brand doing a 325 00:16:59,045 --> 00:17:02,605 Speaker 2: back to school event and it was like, come along, 326 00:17:03,045 --> 00:17:05,044 Speaker 2: will teach you to do your makeup for school and 327 00:17:05,085 --> 00:17:07,764 Speaker 2: you can get redeemable products from that. And they said 328 00:17:07,764 --> 00:17:09,885 Speaker 2: browse and skin like they weren't going, You're gonna wear 329 00:17:10,004 --> 00:17:13,445 Speaker 2: eye to school, But I just went know something about 330 00:17:13,484 --> 00:17:16,445 Speaker 2: that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I think that that is 331 00:17:17,405 --> 00:17:19,564 Speaker 2: something I'd like to put off for as long as 332 00:17:19,605 --> 00:17:19,965 Speaker 2: I can. 333 00:17:20,285 --> 00:17:23,244 Speaker 1: Well. And there's also an interesting question here, do you 334 00:17:23,325 --> 00:17:28,485 Speaker 1: feel differently about kids using makeup versus kids using skincare, 335 00:17:29,165 --> 00:17:33,484 Speaker 1: because we've heard skincare companies tell us, oh, it's like 336 00:17:33,525 --> 00:17:35,645 Speaker 1: brushing your teeth. You've got to start early. We've got 337 00:17:35,685 --> 00:17:38,645 Speaker 1: to create the healthy habits. I always think, I don't know. 338 00:17:38,805 --> 00:17:41,405 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I was meant to wash my 339 00:17:41,525 --> 00:17:45,084 Speaker 1: face until I was eighteen, pretty much. And no, I 340 00:17:45,085 --> 00:17:47,205 Speaker 1: think it's fine. It hasn't fallen off. 341 00:17:47,005 --> 00:17:48,925 Speaker 2: The idea that you need a routine. I mean that's 342 00:17:49,005 --> 00:17:51,445 Speaker 2: just like textbook capitalism. You get them younger and younger 343 00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:53,484 Speaker 2: and then you get them into the routine that totally 344 00:17:53,525 --> 00:17:57,685 Speaker 2: makes sense. But other than using a terrible exfoliant that 345 00:17:57,805 --> 00:18:00,565 Speaker 2: took off layers of my skin, you cut one, yeah, 346 00:18:00,765 --> 00:18:05,485 Speaker 2: fourteen and I loved that, and it was three dollars. 347 00:18:05,925 --> 00:18:08,525 Speaker 2: It smelled great, but we know it wasn't doing good things, 348 00:18:08,525 --> 00:18:10,605 Speaker 2: and in fact, it was probably very bad for them. 349 00:18:11,325 --> 00:18:14,325 Speaker 2: But the idea that you've got girls coming up and 350 00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,805 Speaker 2: asking their mum for these products and then you, as 351 00:18:16,805 --> 00:18:18,804 Speaker 2: a parent have to say no, even though look at 352 00:18:18,885 --> 00:18:22,725 Speaker 2: my cupboard, is like a really awkward hypocrisy because the 353 00:18:22,765 --> 00:18:25,085 Speaker 2: reality is as much as we might have our makeup 354 00:18:25,125 --> 00:18:26,965 Speaker 2: laying around and boys will play with it, and girls 355 00:18:26,965 --> 00:18:29,605 Speaker 2: are playing with it, it's not seven year old boys 356 00:18:29,725 --> 00:18:32,165 Speaker 2: that are saying, can I go and buy a lick 357 00:18:32,205 --> 00:18:33,244 Speaker 2: gloss from them? 358 00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:35,965 Speaker 1: No, it's not. There's a part of me that feels 359 00:18:36,005 --> 00:18:39,965 Speaker 1: like the makeup is more okay than the skincare. 360 00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:41,285 Speaker 2: It feels more playful. 361 00:18:41,365 --> 00:18:45,405 Speaker 1: It's more playful. It's because makeup it looks like toys. 362 00:18:45,925 --> 00:18:49,605 Speaker 2: That's so true, and there is something inherently, I believe, 363 00:18:50,245 --> 00:18:52,965 Speaker 2: artistic about it. It's playful because of the colors and 364 00:18:53,005 --> 00:18:55,925 Speaker 2: because you can experiment, and because you can make your 365 00:18:55,925 --> 00:18:58,925 Speaker 2: face look different, whether it's prettier or not, but like 366 00:18:58,965 --> 00:19:02,765 Speaker 2: you can just play with it, whereas the skincare thing 367 00:19:03,605 --> 00:19:05,285 Speaker 2: is a whole other ballgame. 368 00:19:05,685 --> 00:19:08,524 Speaker 1: I think so. And I think that another difference is 369 00:19:08,525 --> 00:19:14,445 Speaker 1: that makeup is some thing that only adult women really 370 00:19:14,484 --> 00:19:18,565 Speaker 1: are expected to wear. Right, if you don't wear makeup 371 00:19:18,645 --> 00:19:22,324 Speaker 1: as an adult woman, unfortunately you were perceived as making 372 00:19:22,365 --> 00:19:24,725 Speaker 1: a choice not to wear makeup. It's not the default. 373 00:19:24,965 --> 00:19:27,965 Speaker 1: The default right now in twenty twenty five is that 374 00:19:28,085 --> 00:19:31,165 Speaker 1: if you leave the house not wearing makeup, that's a 375 00:19:31,205 --> 00:19:35,405 Speaker 1: decision you made to deviate from normal. And I just 376 00:19:35,845 --> 00:19:39,445 Speaker 1: want to break that down as much as possible, And paradoxically, 377 00:19:39,484 --> 00:19:41,165 Speaker 1: I think the way to do that is just to 378 00:19:41,205 --> 00:19:45,685 Speaker 1: teach kids, boys, girls that it's just a fun thing 379 00:19:45,765 --> 00:19:48,845 Speaker 1: to play with rather than a tool or a piece 380 00:19:48,885 --> 00:19:49,405 Speaker 1: of armor. 381 00:19:50,365 --> 00:19:53,525 Speaker 2: There is a quote by Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeo 382 00:19:53,645 --> 00:19:56,925 Speaker 2: that I've been thinking about for months. Earlier this year, 383 00:19:56,965 --> 00:19:59,805 Speaker 2: she was a guest on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy podcast, 384 00:19:59,845 --> 00:20:02,244 Speaker 2: and she said, you cannot be a mother and have 385 00:20:02,365 --> 00:20:05,044 Speaker 2: children and give one hundred percent to your job. You 386 00:20:05,125 --> 00:20:07,525 Speaker 2: can't because there's a part of you. That's somewhere else. 387 00:20:07,685 --> 00:20:11,325 Speaker 2: You split into different pieces. You're no longer you. You've 388 00:20:11,325 --> 00:20:14,845 Speaker 2: been split into different pieces. Well, that might sound like 389 00:20:14,885 --> 00:20:17,125 Speaker 2: a negative thing. The other thing she went on to 390 00:20:17,125 --> 00:20:19,725 Speaker 2: say was you know what that does? It makes you 391 00:20:19,765 --> 00:20:22,165 Speaker 2: more soulful, It makes you richer, It makes you funnier, 392 00:20:22,205 --> 00:20:24,405 Speaker 2: it makes you feel more, makes you more empathetic, it 393 00:20:24,405 --> 00:20:26,805 Speaker 2: makes you angrier. She talks about the range of emotions 394 00:20:26,845 --> 00:20:32,004 Speaker 2: you have, and you will be yourself times one thousand, Amelia. 395 00:20:32,245 --> 00:20:34,284 Speaker 2: Do you think it's true that you cannot give one 396 00:20:34,405 --> 00:20:36,365 Speaker 2: hundred percent to your job once you become a mother. 397 00:20:36,765 --> 00:20:41,244 Speaker 1: My popular opinion on this is that you can't. I 398 00:20:41,285 --> 00:20:43,564 Speaker 1: think Ellen's right. I think it is really hard to 399 00:20:43,565 --> 00:20:46,285 Speaker 1: give one hundred percent to anything once you've become a mother, 400 00:20:46,325 --> 00:20:48,845 Speaker 1: because you're always thinking about if you have fruit for 401 00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:51,324 Speaker 1: the lunchboxes tomorrow, and do you need to wash this? 402 00:20:51,445 --> 00:20:52,004 Speaker 1: And what are they get? 403 00:20:52,165 --> 00:20:55,244 Speaker 2: What's your definition? No, I feel like this is a 404 00:20:55,285 --> 00:20:58,605 Speaker 2: definitional thing of like, you can still show up to 405 00:20:58,645 --> 00:21:01,365 Speaker 2: work and do the best work and the quality of 406 00:21:01,365 --> 00:21:03,484 Speaker 2: work you did before you had babies. But does one 407 00:21:03,525 --> 00:21:06,525 Speaker 2: hundred percent mean give my whole self? 408 00:21:06,845 --> 00:21:09,125 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to add a caveat, which is you're 409 00:21:09,125 --> 00:21:11,925 Speaker 1: not giving one hundred percent, but you're getting a whole 410 00:21:12,005 --> 00:21:15,405 Speaker 1: lot more done. It's a snake's and lighter situation. You're 411 00:21:15,405 --> 00:21:18,085 Speaker 1: never fully focused, but I do think you become more 412 00:21:18,085 --> 00:21:19,804 Speaker 1: efficient because you have to be. 413 00:21:20,205 --> 00:21:21,605 Speaker 2: So do you think you're worse at your job since 414 00:21:21,605 --> 00:21:22,205 Speaker 2: you had babies? 415 00:21:22,365 --> 00:21:24,365 Speaker 1: Oh that's such a good question, Jesse. Do you have 416 00:21:24,405 --> 00:21:25,005 Speaker 1: an answer. 417 00:21:25,445 --> 00:21:29,084 Speaker 2: I don't think it has impacted how I do my job. 418 00:21:29,325 --> 00:21:33,284 Speaker 2: I initially saw this and went, oh, this can be weaponized. 419 00:21:33,685 --> 00:21:35,085 Speaker 2: Like I was a little. 420 00:21:34,845 --> 00:21:36,805 Speaker 1: Bit like Ellen, it's bad for the call. 421 00:21:37,005 --> 00:21:37,765 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 422 00:21:37,885 --> 00:21:40,205 Speaker 1: My second thought was that Gray's is still going on. 423 00:21:40,325 --> 00:21:43,365 Speaker 2: I had no idea. I had no idea, but I thought, 424 00:21:43,445 --> 00:21:49,484 Speaker 2: I don't want some CEO thinking moms aren't valuable in 425 00:21:49,484 --> 00:21:51,965 Speaker 2: the workforce, or they've always got their head somewhere else, 426 00:21:52,245 --> 00:21:54,085 Speaker 2: or they're chaotic. I don't, I. 427 00:21:54,045 --> 00:21:56,565 Speaker 1: Don't, and I don't think that's true. Like I always 428 00:21:56,605 --> 00:21:59,925 Speaker 1: think of this quote which I thought was from Gwyneth Paltrow, 429 00:21:59,925 --> 00:22:02,365 Speaker 1: but I believe it's actually from Elise Loanan, who used 430 00:22:02,365 --> 00:22:05,245 Speaker 1: to be the chief content officer at Goop with Gwyneth Paltrow, 431 00:22:05,325 --> 00:22:07,725 Speaker 1: and she said that at Goop they always looked to 432 00:22:07,845 --> 00:22:12,725 Speaker 1: hire moms because they said moms make for good hires. 433 00:22:12,765 --> 00:22:15,405 Speaker 1: The amount that I can accomplish in twenty minutes is 434 00:22:15,445 --> 00:22:18,165 Speaker 1: truly shocking to me, and that is true. I do 435 00:22:18,285 --> 00:22:21,925 Speaker 1: feel like my brain now is always racing along, and 436 00:22:21,965 --> 00:22:24,645 Speaker 1: I'm brushing my teeth thinking about something that I need 437 00:22:24,685 --> 00:22:26,564 Speaker 1: to do for work and something I need to do 438 00:22:26,605 --> 00:22:28,564 Speaker 1: for the kids, whereas before I might have just been 439 00:22:28,605 --> 00:22:31,804 Speaker 1: brushing my teeth thinking some nice thoughts about what I 440 00:22:31,845 --> 00:22:32,645 Speaker 1: was going to have for dinner. 441 00:22:32,845 --> 00:22:35,685 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a great quote by a philosopher named 442 00:22:35,725 --> 00:22:38,365 Speaker 2: Agnes Khaled who says giving birth to a baby is 443 00:22:38,405 --> 00:22:41,245 Speaker 2: literally splitting into and it is not always clear which 444 00:22:41,245 --> 00:22:44,925 Speaker 2: one your eye goes with, Like it is a case 445 00:22:45,005 --> 00:22:47,765 Speaker 2: of my mum always said that the superpower she wanted 446 00:22:47,845 --> 00:22:49,405 Speaker 2: was to be in two places at once. It's his 447 00:22:49,484 --> 00:22:51,725 Speaker 2: desperation to be in two places at once, which is 448 00:22:51,765 --> 00:22:53,605 Speaker 2: a really new thing. 449 00:22:53,925 --> 00:22:56,565 Speaker 1: I don't have that desperation really now that my kids 450 00:22:56,605 --> 00:22:59,125 Speaker 1: are at school. I'm very happy that they're at school 451 00:22:59,165 --> 00:23:02,365 Speaker 1: and that I'm at work, so I don't feel bifurcated 452 00:23:02,405 --> 00:23:05,605 Speaker 1: in that way. I just feel like my brain is 453 00:23:05,685 --> 00:23:08,645 Speaker 1: always thinking about multiple things in a way that it 454 00:23:08,725 --> 00:23:09,445 Speaker 1: wasn't before. 455 00:23:09,965 --> 00:23:12,765 Speaker 2: So there was this article in The Cut last year 456 00:23:12,925 --> 00:23:16,045 Speaker 2: by Anastasia Berg that was called what if motherhood isn't 457 00:23:16,045 --> 00:23:17,645 Speaker 2: transformative at all? Did she read this? 458 00:23:17,845 --> 00:23:18,085 Speaker 1: Oh? 459 00:23:18,165 --> 00:23:21,365 Speaker 2: No, it was so interesting, she said. We're often told 460 00:23:21,365 --> 00:23:24,365 Speaker 2: that becoming a parent will alter one's identity. For me, 461 00:23:24,565 --> 00:23:28,565 Speaker 2: the change never came, and she says, I had my baby, 462 00:23:28,765 --> 00:23:31,445 Speaker 2: I'm looking around, I'm asking the same questions. I have 463 00:23:31,484 --> 00:23:33,885 Speaker 2: the same friends, the same problems, and I'm interested in 464 00:23:33,885 --> 00:23:36,845 Speaker 2: the same petty gossip. And I wondered if we talk 465 00:23:36,885 --> 00:23:41,925 Speaker 2: about motherhood sometimes in such absolutes, as though there is 466 00:23:41,965 --> 00:23:46,285 Speaker 2: this universal experience of becoming a mother and some things 467 00:23:46,285 --> 00:23:48,645 Speaker 2: that you say, you go, oh my goodness, I feel 468 00:23:49,005 --> 00:23:52,965 Speaker 2: so sane about this very specific human experience. But I 469 00:23:53,045 --> 00:23:55,965 Speaker 2: sit somewhere in between these two. It's like, I don't 470 00:23:56,005 --> 00:23:58,485 Speaker 2: know if I do feel like I'm a completely different 471 00:23:58,565 --> 00:24:01,804 Speaker 2: person who's a different person at work than I was 472 00:24:01,965 --> 00:24:05,725 Speaker 2: before I had a baby. And it was like afterwards, 473 00:24:05,765 --> 00:24:08,845 Speaker 2: I remember walking around and going, oh, I was so 474 00:24:08,885 --> 00:24:11,245 Speaker 2: worried I'd have a totally different idea, And I still 475 00:24:11,245 --> 00:24:14,845 Speaker 2: feel like myself I never had that identity crisis. Maybe 476 00:24:14,845 --> 00:24:17,725 Speaker 2: I've had like work crisis time crisis. But like I 477 00:24:17,725 --> 00:24:19,525 Speaker 2: have felt like Jesse the whole way through. 478 00:24:19,725 --> 00:24:23,044 Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can at work to prove that 479 00:24:23,125 --> 00:24:26,244 Speaker 1: I'm not a different person, and I'm almost swinging to 480 00:24:26,285 --> 00:24:29,685 Speaker 1: the opposite extreme. So, for instance, I think a lot 481 00:24:29,725 --> 00:24:32,645 Speaker 1: of my colleagues at work do not know that I 482 00:24:32,685 --> 00:24:35,765 Speaker 1: have children, and I kind of like it that way. 483 00:24:36,645 --> 00:24:39,645 Speaker 1: I very much like to categorize the different parts of 484 00:24:39,645 --> 00:24:41,045 Speaker 1: my life and keep them separate. 485 00:24:41,245 --> 00:24:43,405 Speaker 2: They're going to be so confused about why you're hosting 486 00:24:43,445 --> 00:24:45,085 Speaker 2: this podcast, Familia. They're gonna be like, why is she 487 00:24:45,165 --> 00:24:46,365 Speaker 2: on a parenting out out podula? 488 00:24:46,445 --> 00:24:50,445 Speaker 1: I got to be confused. I just don't like to 489 00:24:50,525 --> 00:24:53,165 Speaker 1: talk about it at work. I think it's because I'm 490 00:24:53,245 --> 00:24:55,805 Speaker 1: sensitive to the idea of oh, she's always talking about 491 00:24:55,805 --> 00:24:59,084 Speaker 1: her kids. And I remember that before I had kids, 492 00:24:59,925 --> 00:25:03,524 Speaker 1: I would be resentful of mothers who left work early 493 00:25:03,605 --> 00:25:07,165 Speaker 1: to pick their kids up from school. I'd roll my eyes. 494 00:25:07,365 --> 00:25:09,405 Speaker 1: I'd say, they're not working as hard as I am. 495 00:25:09,725 --> 00:25:11,205 Speaker 1: Now I know that that's not the case, because I 496 00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:12,844 Speaker 1: know that they're picking them up from school and then 497 00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:15,445 Speaker 1: they're going home and they're doing a second shift. Yeah, 498 00:25:15,605 --> 00:25:19,405 Speaker 1: but I'm doing everything I can to prove that I 499 00:25:19,445 --> 00:25:21,605 Speaker 1: am the same person as I was before kids, and 500 00:25:21,685 --> 00:25:24,365 Speaker 1: maybe it's a little exhausting. It doesn't seem like you 501 00:25:24,445 --> 00:25:26,085 Speaker 1: were working that hard to keep that. 502 00:25:26,285 --> 00:25:29,445 Speaker 2: No, I still feel like the same person, and I 503 00:25:29,484 --> 00:25:32,165 Speaker 2: think my definition of one hundred percent has changed. I 504 00:25:32,165 --> 00:25:33,085 Speaker 2: reckon that's what it is. 505 00:25:33,005 --> 00:25:33,525 Speaker 1: Okay, Tommy. 506 00:25:33,725 --> 00:25:37,564 Speaker 2: It's like, one hundred percent doesn't mean that you're in 507 00:25:37,605 --> 00:25:39,365 Speaker 2: the office for twelve hours. And if there was an 508 00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:42,845 Speaker 2: opportunity to come up tonight before Luna, I would have 509 00:25:42,925 --> 00:25:45,085 Speaker 2: probably leaned into it, and now I can't, which is 510 00:25:45,125 --> 00:25:47,645 Speaker 2: totally fine. But that doesn't mean that the projects that 511 00:25:47,685 --> 00:25:51,844 Speaker 2: I choose to do I don't put full, unabashed effort 512 00:25:51,845 --> 00:25:55,004 Speaker 2: into like I still absolutely do. It's just maybe I 513 00:25:55,045 --> 00:25:55,845 Speaker 2: do less projects. 514 00:25:56,125 --> 00:25:58,205 Speaker 1: You thinking in the back of your head about whether 515 00:25:58,285 --> 00:26:02,045 Speaker 1: Luna will eat frozen peas for dinner. Be honest, I'm actually. 516 00:26:01,685 --> 00:26:05,085 Speaker 2: Not okay, well, I think that my brain might be broken. 517 00:26:05,325 --> 00:26:07,765 Speaker 2: I think I'm actually quite good, and I know this 518 00:26:07,805 --> 00:26:09,765 Speaker 2: is something you're not meant to say. In twenty twenty five. 519 00:26:11,005 --> 00:26:13,885 Speaker 2: I'm very good at focus. I look at it iPhone, 520 00:26:13,925 --> 00:26:17,484 Speaker 2: do not disturbe, do not disturb, and look sometimes, especially 521 00:26:17,484 --> 00:26:19,205 Speaker 2: if she's sick. I find that really hard. I find 522 00:26:19,245 --> 00:26:21,045 Speaker 2: it hard to be or if she's been upset or whatever. 523 00:26:21,245 --> 00:26:24,525 Speaker 2: But you know, Maya talks about ADHD and her experience 524 00:26:24,565 --> 00:26:26,285 Speaker 2: with the way her brain works, and I always think 525 00:26:26,605 --> 00:26:29,005 Speaker 2: my brain is a complete opposite. Like I feel as 526 00:26:29,045 --> 00:26:32,004 Speaker 2: though I can sit down, focus, I'm here when I'm here, 527 00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:33,484 Speaker 2: and I'm there when I'm there. I feel like I 528 00:26:33,484 --> 00:26:37,525 Speaker 2: can do that. It's time for our recommendations of the week, Amelia. 529 00:26:37,605 --> 00:26:38,244 Speaker 2: What have you got? 530 00:26:38,405 --> 00:26:40,965 Speaker 1: I came home the other day check the mail and 531 00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:44,605 Speaker 1: there was a National Geographic Kids Magazine in the mail, 532 00:26:44,685 --> 00:26:47,004 Speaker 1: and I thought, what a thoughtful gift from sort of 533 00:26:47,005 --> 00:26:50,524 Speaker 1: benevolent care of my children in our orbit, who just 534 00:26:50,525 --> 00:26:54,004 Speaker 1: thought they needed some education. And I asked my partner 535 00:26:54,005 --> 00:26:55,445 Speaker 1: if you knew anything about it. He told me, you 536 00:26:55,525 --> 00:26:59,525 Speaker 1: got a deal through McDonald's for it. So that's why 537 00:26:59,605 --> 00:27:03,725 Speaker 1: we're now subscribed to National Geographic Kids Magazine mini magazine. 538 00:27:03,765 --> 00:27:05,764 Speaker 1: He goes to McDonald's a lot. I think they have 539 00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:11,365 Speaker 1: some kind of VIP experience where you get free magazine subscriptions. Anyway, 540 00:27:11,645 --> 00:27:15,165 Speaker 1: I've been delighted by this product. A couple of reasons 541 00:27:15,205 --> 00:27:17,484 Speaker 1: why I love it. It's a little kid's magazine with 542 00:27:17,525 --> 00:27:19,004 Speaker 1: puzzles and weird facts. 543 00:27:19,085 --> 00:27:20,405 Speaker 2: So it's written four kids. 544 00:27:20,405 --> 00:27:23,165 Speaker 1: It's written four kids. It comes every month, and it's 545 00:27:23,165 --> 00:27:25,484 Speaker 1: got lots of good photos in it of weird insects. 546 00:27:25,725 --> 00:27:28,965 Speaker 1: I love that about it. But a young person literally 547 00:27:29,085 --> 00:27:31,325 Speaker 1: asked me the other day, someone who works at mom 548 00:27:31,365 --> 00:27:35,725 Speaker 1: and Mia, what a magazine was, and I paused for 549 00:27:35,765 --> 00:27:37,925 Speaker 1: a second. So I figure I should probably explain on 550 00:27:37,965 --> 00:27:40,405 Speaker 1: this podcast for anyone who doesn't know. I used to 551 00:27:40,405 --> 00:27:42,925 Speaker 1: work with a boss at a magazine who described magazines 552 00:27:42,965 --> 00:27:45,565 Speaker 1: as the ultimate technology. They never run out of batteries, 553 00:27:46,165 --> 00:27:49,205 Speaker 1: you can fold them under your arm, and they don't 554 00:27:49,205 --> 00:27:53,685 Speaker 1: require a USB cord. What else could you want from anything? True? 555 00:27:53,725 --> 00:27:55,445 Speaker 1: And it turns out I can't believe I'm having to 556 00:27:55,445 --> 00:27:57,565 Speaker 1: explain this, but I think in twenty twenty five I do. 557 00:27:57,845 --> 00:28:00,565 Speaker 1: The great thing about magazines is you can take them 558 00:28:00,605 --> 00:28:03,524 Speaker 1: to a cafe or to a sports game. You do 559 00:28:03,645 --> 00:28:07,165 Speaker 1: not require a power point, and then you can just 560 00:28:07,405 --> 00:28:11,804 Speaker 1: entertain a child with this most old of technologies. 561 00:28:12,245 --> 00:28:14,605 Speaker 2: Throw it in the backseat when they're winging. 562 00:28:14,845 --> 00:28:19,125 Speaker 1: Yes, gather around and listen to the law of magazines. Anyway, 563 00:28:19,205 --> 00:28:21,165 Speaker 1: I also have one other thing to tell you, which 564 00:28:21,205 --> 00:28:23,804 Speaker 1: is that a pangolan's tongue can be up to seventy 565 00:28:23,805 --> 00:28:25,965 Speaker 1: one centimeters in length, and that's almost as long as 566 00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:26,524 Speaker 1: its body. 567 00:28:26,725 --> 00:28:29,485 Speaker 2: So that's fascinating. See, these are things that we should 568 00:28:29,565 --> 00:28:31,845 Speaker 2: all know. This is why I love having kids around, 569 00:28:31,885 --> 00:28:33,125 Speaker 2: because they're full of fun. 570 00:28:32,925 --> 00:28:35,645 Speaker 1: Facts, and the National Geographic for Kids will teach you 571 00:28:35,685 --> 00:28:36,165 Speaker 1: these things. 572 00:28:36,405 --> 00:28:40,525 Speaker 2: My recommendation is very, very basic, Amelia, when you were 573 00:28:40,565 --> 00:28:43,285 Speaker 2: in the baby baby trenches, did you ever play the 574 00:28:43,325 --> 00:28:43,845 Speaker 2: Happy Song? 575 00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:45,085 Speaker 1: No? I don't know what that is. 576 00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:47,605 Speaker 2: Okay. I worry that people haven't heard of the Happy 577 00:28:47,645 --> 00:28:50,525 Speaker 2: Song when it's the only hack. So do you know 578 00:28:50,605 --> 00:28:53,365 Speaker 2: that artist image and Hate? I don't know any Okay, 579 00:28:53,405 --> 00:28:56,325 Speaker 2: Image and Hate? Did you ever watch the oc Amelily, 580 00:28:56,365 --> 00:28:57,285 Speaker 2: I thought you're a millennial. 581 00:28:57,325 --> 00:29:00,605 Speaker 1: I'm an elder millennial. I'm waiting magazines. 582 00:29:01,645 --> 00:29:04,805 Speaker 2: Okay. Image Hepe is this person who wrote like actual 583 00:29:04,845 --> 00:29:07,445 Speaker 2: good adult music. But she has written this song. I 584 00:29:07,485 --> 00:29:10,045 Speaker 2: don't know when. It is called the happy Song, and 585 00:29:10,085 --> 00:29:12,685 Speaker 2: it is designed to make babies stop crying. It's like 586 00:29:13,045 --> 00:29:13,885 Speaker 2: fell if it. 587 00:29:13,805 --> 00:29:14,965 Speaker 1: Was designed to make babies. 588 00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:18,405 Speaker 2: I was like, Lessie, no, it's the opposite. You'll put 589 00:29:18,445 --> 00:29:21,005 Speaker 2: that on and it's not arousing at all, it's like 590 00:29:21,365 --> 00:29:24,725 Speaker 2: got little weird little sounds, and the tone of her voice, 591 00:29:24,725 --> 00:29:29,085 Speaker 2: in the tone of the sounds is meant to do something. Okay, crying, right, 592 00:29:29,125 --> 00:29:31,925 Speaker 2: So I saw this on TikTok, I think before I 593 00:29:31,925 --> 00:29:33,765 Speaker 2: had Luna, And so every time she's crying in the 594 00:29:33,765 --> 00:29:36,125 Speaker 2: car or whatever, I put on a happy song. I reckon, 595 00:29:36,165 --> 00:29:40,205 Speaker 2: it's got eighty five percent success, right, it is really 596 00:29:40,285 --> 00:29:40,805 Speaker 2: really good. 597 00:29:41,165 --> 00:29:44,845 Speaker 1: This reminds me of a bonus recommendation I have. Oh, 598 00:29:44,885 --> 00:29:48,845 Speaker 1: there is a jewel album of Lala bish. 599 00:29:48,725 --> 00:29:51,765 Speaker 2: Jewel as in yeah, yeah. 600 00:29:51,645 --> 00:29:59,525 Speaker 1: Yeah, the lyrics anyway, it's lallabies. And if you have 601 00:29:59,725 --> 00:30:02,125 Speaker 1: kids who are small and who nap in the car, 602 00:30:02,205 --> 00:30:05,365 Speaker 1: which obviously I would never have done because kids require 603 00:30:05,445 --> 00:30:08,165 Speaker 1: good sleep hygen, but you know, hypothetically, if they were 604 00:30:08,245 --> 00:30:11,565 Speaker 1: napping in the car, you put it on. Children literally 605 00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:14,565 Speaker 1: cannot get through the first track of the album without 606 00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:15,285 Speaker 1: falling asleep. 607 00:30:15,605 --> 00:30:18,285 Speaker 2: There needs to be like a handout at the hospital 608 00:30:18,325 --> 00:30:20,725 Speaker 2: that tells you these things like this. People haven't heard 609 00:30:20,725 --> 00:30:23,485 Speaker 2: of it. And I'm like, even at nearly two, if 610 00:30:23,485 --> 00:30:25,885 Speaker 2: she's losing it, I will put on and she'll go 611 00:30:26,005 --> 00:30:27,525 Speaker 2: no happy song because she knows it. 612 00:30:28,205 --> 00:30:28,605 Speaker 1: Wow. 613 00:30:28,645 --> 00:30:30,685 Speaker 2: But then she's happy, but then she's like, damn it, 614 00:30:30,725 --> 00:30:31,365 Speaker 2: I've stopped crying. 615 00:30:31,365 --> 00:30:32,485 Speaker 1: Does it make you happy? 616 00:30:32,845 --> 00:30:35,165 Speaker 2: It makes me happy if she stops crying, But the 617 00:30:35,245 --> 00:30:38,565 Speaker 2: sound of it I now associate with desperation. So in 618 00:30:38,605 --> 00:30:40,725 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, it's like, I will be so 619 00:30:41,325 --> 00:30:44,485 Speaker 2: happy when I never hear it again. That is all 620 00:30:44,525 --> 00:30:47,445 Speaker 2: we have time for on Parenting out Loud today. Our 621 00:30:47,525 --> 00:30:51,245 Speaker 2: MMA MIA studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. 622 00:30:51,645 --> 00:30:54,885 Speaker 2: Visit Fentonanfentin dot com dot au and we will see 623 00:30:54,925 --> 00:30:59,965 Speaker 2: you next Saturday. Bye.