Speaker 1: Beautiful yighborhood.
Speaker 2: I hope you're having a fabulous long weekend full of yay.
Speaker 2: I was sitting down to write up today's Yeas of
Speaker 2: Our Lives episode, and one of my recommendations that came
Speaker 2: up was an incredible new book that I just finished,
Speaker 2: the Success Experiment, launched just recently by the inimitable Flex Mummy,
Speaker 2: otherwise known as Lillian A.
Speaker 1: Hanken.
Speaker 2: I realized that I was struggling to describe, without just
Speaker 2: reading the entire book out to you here, just how
Speaker 2: uniquely but powerfully Flex articulates life's great questions with a
Speaker 2: splash of humor and so much color, both literarily and
Speaker 2: literally in the pages of her beautiful book. But I
Speaker 2: remembered that, of course, she jumped on the show two
Speaker 2: lockdowns ago around this time last year for a juicy chat,
Speaker 2: and I thought re releasing that one would probably give
Speaker 2: you a better idea of just how wonderful she is.
Speaker 2: I've only just started re releasing past episodes this year
Speaker 2: when a guest releases a new book or I unexpectedly
Speaker 2: end up without a new episode for that week, and
Speaker 2: I've been so surprised how often some of our chats
Speaker 2: fly under people's radars. So hopefully this time this one
Speaker 2: reaches a few of you who missed it the first
Speaker 2: time around. Ignore a few temporal references relevant to last year,
Speaker 2: but otherwise, I hope you enjoy Flex's fascinating brain and
Speaker 2: eloquence as much as I did. I'll pop the link
Speaker 2: to her new book, The Success Experiment in the show
Speaker 2: notes and hope you guys enjoy.
Speaker 3: I think I've always to a point had some sort
Speaker 3: of identity crisis, but it wasn't rooted in being culturally
Speaker 3: different until adulthood, where people were a lot more forthcoming,
Speaker 3: you know, with what they felt about the way it looked.
Speaker 3: There is no one homogeneous Black experience. Yeah, there's barely
Speaker 3: a homogeneous Black Australian experience. Even if we were to
Speaker 3: dwindle it down to the Black Australian heterosexual female experience,
Speaker 3: Now it's not homogeneous. Any form of improving, developing, upskilling, evolving,
Speaker 3: transforming is hardshit. Absolutely going against the grain isn't beneficial until.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seize the Yay podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but
Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 2: one way. So this is the platforms to hear and
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly, The best and worst day
Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your Yea. I'm
Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 2: funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found
Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milkbar. Sez the Ya is a
Speaker 2: series of conversations on finding a life you love and
Speaker 2: exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way.
Speaker 2: The way that twenty twenty has unfolded has had a
Speaker 2: lot of us reflecting in ways we haven't in years,
Speaker 2: but self awareness, existential reflection and critical thinking about values,
Speaker 2: behaviors and perceptions has been this week's guests Jam since
Speaker 2: long before the pandemic. Few people get my brain gymnastics
Speaker 2: going like the inimitable Lilian Henken, who you may know
Speaker 2: as Flex Mummy, and the chat you're about to hear
Speaker 2: was no exception. While she is now changing how we think,
Speaker 2: how we do our makeup, and how we decorate our furniture.
Speaker 2: As a self dubbed professional opinion haver and slashy DJ's
Speaker 2: slash TV host, slash podcaster, slash beauty guru, slash creator
Speaker 2: of Flex Factory. I love chatting to Lil about the
Speaker 2: rollercoaster journey all of us go through finding our personal
Speaker 2: balance between conventionality and difference. As an Australian born Garnaian woman,
Speaker 2: the societal projection of a homogeneous black women's experience is
Speaker 2: just one of the many layers of identity that we
Speaker 2: peel back with her incredible ability to articulate and guide
Speaker 2: multifaceted conversations. I was so captivated in exploring the different
Speaker 2: elements of our identity and the many snake skins Flex
Speaker 2: has worn and shed herself, that we went for almost
Speaker 2: two hours having a great laugh. But I've cut the
Speaker 2: best off for you to enjoy. If you aren't thinking
Speaker 2: fundamentally differently about things at the end of this one,
Speaker 2: I'd be surprised. I hope you enjoy this one as much.
Speaker 1: As I did. Flex.
Speaker 2: Welcome to CZA. It's been a long time coming, but
Speaker 2: I'm so so excited.
Speaker 1: To have you on today.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I was having a thought this
Speaker 3: morning that between you and I, we're the only people
Speaker 3: I can recall who use yay quite liberally and don't
Speaker 3: think it's like condescending or contrived. I really feel like
Speaker 3: YA accurately describes a lot of things. It's the appropriate
Speaker 3: response for a lot oh underrated and underused.
Speaker 2: I agree, oh my gosh, that this is one of
Speaker 2: the many million reasons why I aenjoy you. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: you should be absolutely dished out in a liberal fashion.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. In addition to exclamation points, I feel strongly about
Speaker 3: those as well, and they are too underused.
Speaker 2: Although I think I'm a bit there other way, I
Speaker 2: over use them. And then I think I saw it
Speaker 2: was maybe on the Shameless page the other day about
Speaker 2: if I have two sentences in an email, which one
Speaker 2: gets the exclamation Mike. I'm like, well, all of them,
Speaker 2: all of.
Speaker 3: Them and multiple. It really does help with conveying tone,
Speaker 3: because without them. I mean to digress that I was
Speaker 3: googling this. I was googling gendered speech patterns because somebody
Speaker 3: on TikTok said that that was one of their hobbies,
Speaker 3: and I was like, what's a gendered speech pattern? And
Speaker 3: basically the Internet told me that stereotypically, women are more
Speaker 3: likely to integrate very passive phrases into their language in
Speaker 3: the way that men might not. So women are more
Speaker 3: likely to say ah, but yeah, like, whereas men are
Speaker 3: more naturally inclined to speak and not mince their words.
Speaker 3: And as soon as I discovered that, I was thinking
Speaker 3: to myself, how hard would it be to make more
Speaker 3: of a considered effort to say exactly what I mean
Speaker 3: as I want to rather than the la And then
Speaker 3: you know, and it's so much harder because it changes
Speaker 3: your cadence, it changes your tone, it changes your accessibility.
Speaker 3: Absolutely are these gendered things. Also, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, So firstly, for everyone listening, I mean,
Speaker 2: this is already if you wanted a taster of what
Speaker 2: flex is all about. It's asking the questions about the
Speaker 2: stuff we take for granted that we just do out
Speaker 2: of habit, and really reflecting on what our reflexes are.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what this is all about. You have
Speaker 2: literally a self development and critical thinking game to your name.
Speaker 2: I just love that you ask the things that break
Speaker 2: taboo or even just break the autopilot's circuit of thought
Speaker 2: patterns and talk about it so eloquently and you're just
Speaker 2: so good.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I do try so before we kick off, the first
Speaker 2: question I ask everyone as a little eyes breaker, is
Speaker 2: what the most down to earth thing is about them?
Speaker 2: And on the one hand, you are incredibly admired and
Speaker 2: followed closely on social media and in the world, and
Speaker 2: so that it could appear like there was a bit
Speaker 2: of a glossy surface. But on the other hand, you're
Speaker 2: also one of the most open and taboo breaking person
Speaker 2: on the interwebs at this time, so it's probably like
Speaker 2: not a question I actually need to ask you, But
Speaker 2: for anyone who's new to flex Mami, what's something really
Speaker 2: down to earth about you?
Speaker 3: Ooh? That's really interesting and a trickier question, maybe for
Speaker 3: me than most, because sometimes I struggle with the way
Speaker 3: that relatability is commodified, and how we're all so hyper
Speaker 3: aware of not being seen as other like I'm just
Speaker 3: like you, I'm normal, when in reality, probably most of
Speaker 3: us aren't like our audience, and we're not normal. We
Speaker 3: are the abnormal. But I would have to say it's
Speaker 3: down to earth because it's the most surprise. But just
Speaker 3: being a really picky eater, I definitely a toddler, and
Speaker 3: people find it really interesting because I have such a
Speaker 3: flavorful appearance. But in any given circumstance, I would prefer
Speaker 3: vanilla ice cream plain, you know, mashed potatoes. Plain is
Speaker 3: in very simple like simplely cooked chicken, like a schnitzel.
Speaker 3: I don't want like it raised. I don't want it boiled.
Speaker 3: I don't want any variation of the norm. I want
Speaker 3: a cheese and a cracker. I'm talking, you know, at
Speaker 3: most of breda Camembert. I'm not eating goggan zola. I'm
Speaker 3: not doing it. I'm not getting honey drizzled into it.
Speaker 2: That is that actually blows. That is the best answer
Speaker 2: I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 3: That's it. I want white bread. I don't want multi grain.
Speaker 3: I don't want lindseeed. I don't want whole meal. I
Speaker 3: don't even want bosh.
Speaker 1: Oh my, you don't even want no.
Speaker 3: I don't mind a milk bun. Sometimes so specific, I
Speaker 3: love it, that is it. I am quite a specific person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you are.
Speaker 2: I love that you know what you like and you
Speaker 2: know what you don't like, and you're happy to like
Speaker 2: below the horn of the things that you love. But
Speaker 2: on the other hand, you're like, but I don't need
Speaker 2: to be flavorful in every single aspect of my life,
Speaker 2: like I don't need to be rainbow, multicolored gradient paint
Speaker 2: equivalent in my plate like I'm bland.
Speaker 3: That's fine, exactly exactly, And the people around me, my
Speaker 3: closer loved ones, are always trying to push me outside
Speaker 3: of my comfort zone because most people associate like a
Speaker 3: closed mindedness with regret or lack. There's so much you're
Speaker 3: not trying, and if you just I'm quite comfortable with
Speaker 3: the palette when I wake up. There's nothing I feel
Speaker 3: as though I need to try more or less of
Speaker 3: I have. You know, I have my options, and the
Speaker 3: options are quite fine. Whereas in different aspects of my life,
Speaker 3: like let's say, howse to call, I don't feel fulfilled.
Speaker 3: Therefore I must innovate and I must create, and I
Speaker 3: must try new things.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love you so much, And that actually, like,
Speaker 2: on a deeper level, what I extract from that as
Speaker 2: a really important reminder is that we do have this
Speaker 2: overarching belief that getting out of your comfort zone is
Speaker 2: a good thing, and really we strive for discomfort because
Speaker 2: of the growth opportunity it offers, which in a lot
Speaker 2: of cases people do need to get out of habit
Speaker 2: and familiarity and just you know, autopilot. But there's also
Speaker 2: something about you you can choose to stick with the
Speaker 2: things that you like just because you don't have to
Speaker 2: be different all the time, Like, oh great, lesson Great,
Speaker 2: I mean we can just end now. I mean I've
Speaker 2: learned my lesson for today.
Speaker 3: And that's it. Listening.
Speaker 2: Oh man, So I mean you are not only one
Speaker 2: of my favorite people, but also just have really embody.
Speaker 2: Everything that sees THEA is about about all the different
Speaker 2: ways you can take your career, all the many ways
Speaker 2: that you've gone that you might not affixed expected. And
Speaker 2: I love how there are so many contrasts in what
Speaker 2: you've done, what you do, what your personality is, I mean,
Speaker 2: your professional opinion, havever. You're just so many different things
Speaker 2: that you hold them all so well. And it's again
Speaker 2: I think I love that it's not out of indecision
Speaker 2: that you are a professional slushy. I think, as you
Speaker 2: call it, it's a choice to pursue so many different
Speaker 2: sides of your personality. So the first section is your wayta,
Speaker 2: which is pretty much explaining to us all the bits
Speaker 2: that came before the you that you are now. And
Speaker 2: I think we often see people like yourself who are
Speaker 2: quite confident in their opinions and where they sit and
Speaker 2: what I mean, like what their palette is. And you've
Speaker 2: done a lot of work to find now what works
Speaker 2: for you and what your joy is. But we forget
Speaker 2: to go through all the steps from childhood and all
Speaker 2: the weird rollercoaster ups and downs that it actually takes
Speaker 2: you to figure all that out. So I love to
Speaker 2: go back to the very very beginning, and I mean
Speaker 2: even the fact that you weren't born flex mummy you
Speaker 2: are looking at a Hanken.
Speaker 3: Said perfectly too. I love that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: What were you like as a child, What did you
Speaker 2: think lay ahead in your future? Was it anything close
Speaker 2: to what actually it turned out to be? And I
Speaker 2: think also just in light of the last couple of
Speaker 2: weeks in particular, tell us about your experience as a
Speaker 2: Ghanaian woman who's of Ghanaian heritage but born in Australia,
Speaker 2: so that whole where did you come from question? I
Speaker 2: kind of imagine what that was like me. Yeah, tell us,
Speaker 2: tell us about young lil I guess.
Speaker 3: It's important to start from a place where my understanding
Speaker 3: of myself was quite conscious. And I say that happened
Speaker 3: in high school. Before then, I'm sure I was just
Speaker 3: an empty shell who did as I was told and
Speaker 3: latched onto whatever was popular. But I remember in about
Speaker 3: let's say year nine, is that I started high school
Speaker 3: a bit young, So I think I was fourteen in
Speaker 3: year nine, and that was the year I just became
Speaker 3: really really hyper obsessed with like subgenres and having fitting
Speaker 3: into a stereotype. I guess it's because I consumed a
Speaker 3: lot of American TV, as most Australians do, and stereotypes
Speaker 3: are littered throughout all of your media, like you are
Speaker 3: in a certain group. You are emo, you're goth, you're
Speaker 3: in the rap group, you're an athlete, you're this and
Speaker 3: that and so on and so forth. And I love
Speaker 3: the fact that within those settings, having or identifying as
Speaker 3: a member of the group gave you purpose, an identity,
Speaker 3: and a way to behave and a way to connect
Speaker 3: and being How do I explain it? Like, as a
Speaker 3: young person, there's so much I knew I could be,
Speaker 3: but I didn't have the infrastructure to do more than
Speaker 3: what was sort of available to me. I acutely remember
Speaker 3: in year nine I went to an all girls public
Speaker 3: high school, and in year nine, everybody was wearing the
Speaker 3: same white volley trainers, the same belt from Souprey, the
Speaker 3: same tiny champion bag, the same skirt rolled up and
Speaker 3: cut too short. There was no room to express yourself
Speaker 3: outside of the norm because that was the norm. That
Speaker 3: was the one stereotype, and if you were anything but
Speaker 3: you are necessarily shunning yourself. And so I remember I
Speaker 3: made a really close friend and we just decided that
Speaker 3: between the two of us, we would just do the thing.
Speaker 3: And so I latched quite heavily onto being like a
Speaker 3: little pop punk, emo scene girl. And that was my
Speaker 3: identity purely because I liked the music and I liked,
Speaker 3: you know, the culture, the skateboards and the guitars and
Speaker 3: the way you could do your makeup and your hair.
Speaker 3: It was so exciting. And it was fine because once
Speaker 3: you dressed a certain way, it was very easy for
Speaker 3: people to identify with you. But what I didn't understand
Speaker 3: is that how you dressed and what they identified with
Speaker 3: could be negative. They're like, are you sad? I was
Speaker 3: like no, I just like the way I look. They're like, oh,
Speaker 3: it's really hard to identify with so for context, and
Speaker 3: this might not mean anything to people who don't care
Speaker 3: about astrology, but I am an Aquarius moon, I'm an
Speaker 3: airy sun, so as girl Pisces rising, what that means
Speaker 3: about me is that I have a preoccupation with being
Speaker 3: and feeling you and special, Like my idea is the
Speaker 3: first off, nobody gets me, Like how I see the
Speaker 3: world is so specific that you just wouldn't even get
Speaker 3: if I explained it. Now. I can say that with
Speaker 3: a level of self awareness, But as a tween, I
Speaker 3: was latching on to things that were so far outside
Speaker 3: of my norm because I guess in hindsight, I was
Speaker 3: really afraid of being seen as other just naturally. So
Speaker 3: if I put myself in positions where I was other
Speaker 3: on purpose, then I was taking control of that narrative
Speaker 3: because I knew exactly the connotations with what I was
Speaker 3: choosing to identify as. I knew exactly the people that
Speaker 3: would identify with me, and I could sit quite heavily
Speaker 3: into that that's so, and so that isn't it right hindsight?
Speaker 3: And so that was fine until we get to about
Speaker 3: year ten or year eleven, and I'm exposing myself to
Speaker 3: other young people who are from different areas of Sydney
Speaker 3: because I went to a public girls high school that
Speaker 3: was attached to public boys High school, which meant that
Speaker 3: we just kind of integrated within each other. Though it
Speaker 3: was the Eastern Suburbs, which is quite stereotypically known as
Speaker 3: an affluent area that's very white, it was multicultural in
Speaker 3: its own way like I wasn't. I might have been
Speaker 3: the only black girl or like one of two, but
Speaker 3: there were people of multiple ethnicities that it was expected
Speaker 3: that people had another culture, another language to speak, and
Speaker 3: that was all fine. It wasn't until I got until
Speaker 3: exposing myself to other schools that I was like, wow,
Speaker 3: you have quite stereotypical views of me and the people
Speaker 3: that I hang out with, like the people who would
Speaker 3: make the black joke and make the Asian joke and
Speaker 3: be like, oh, that's so crazy. And so I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: like we're getting to a point where what my mum
Speaker 3: had and my family had kind of quote unquote warned
Speaker 3: me about was coming to fruition. And I remember there
Speaker 3: was a stage in my early adolescent development that when
Speaker 3: I was transitioning to high school. My mum was saying
Speaker 3: to me, you know, people can be a little bit
Speaker 3: you know, forward and a bit rude, and you might
Speaker 3: be put in situations where people ask you about what
Speaker 3: you look like and where you're from. At this I
Speaker 3: could not comprehend what do you mean, MUMY may get it, like,
Speaker 3: it's not like that anymore. People aren't gonna do that. Mum.
Speaker 3: She's like, I know you might not see it now,
Speaker 3: and maybe you might not see it ever, but just
Speaker 3: be mindful that you're in a position where you are
Speaker 3: a bit different from the people around you. So I
Speaker 3: doubled down. I'm like, I'm not different. I'm Australian, I
Speaker 3: like vegiem. You don't know me. But yeah. So it
Speaker 3: was this weird like parallel or like being no being
Speaker 3: visibly different by choice, but also just being visibly different
Speaker 3: just by nature that I couldn't that I was struggling
Speaker 3: to comprehend, you know, And so I just remember there
Speaker 3: was this one time. I always say there was one
Speaker 3: time in about U ten and it was multicultural day
Speaker 3: in my high school, and my teacher was asking me
Speaker 3: what I'd be wearing from my culture in my head.
Speaker 3: I am Australian, that's what I know.
Speaker 2: I'm dressing as a piece of fairy bread.
Speaker 3: And also, it wasn't a mandatory exercise to dress as
Speaker 3: somewhere from your culture, because many people didn't identify as
Speaker 3: having a culture. So I said, I'm going to wear
Speaker 3: these new American Paradisco pants. I got some new Doctor Martins.
Speaker 3: This this plaid chat I got, I love it, whatever, whatever,
Speaker 3: And they were like, no, like from where you're from.
Speaker 3: And I was like, I just I'm not I'm not processing.
Speaker 3: And so going back to my mom and trying to understand,
Speaker 3: like what does she mean, what do they mean? I
Speaker 3: don't understand. I'm this, I'm that and whatever. And so
Speaker 3: I think I've always to a point had some sort
Speaker 3: of identity crisis, but it wasn't rooted in being culturally
Speaker 3: different until adulthood, where people were a lot more forthcoming,
Speaker 3: you know, with what they felt about the way it looked.
Speaker 3: But as a young person, I guess I was just
Speaker 3: I was a bit of a sponge, like I was
Speaker 3: ready to absorb and absorb and absorb and absorb and absorb.
Speaker 3: And I think I was happy for my my appearance
Speaker 3: to do this speaking for me, because I didn't feel
Speaker 3: like I was the most articulate person. I didn't feel
Speaker 3: like I had the range to speak on a lot
Speaker 3: of topics. I was never of course, I was in
Speaker 3: gifted and talented classes, but when you're in high school,
Speaker 3: so is everybody. It doesn't really mean that you have
Speaker 3: any academic prowess, any ability to critically think. I almost
Speaker 3: failed my fucking ata, which is that thing you do
Speaker 3: at the end of yew twelve. I got like fifty six, so,
Speaker 3: I mean, and I was creative, but I in so
Speaker 3: many ways I was just a bit of a wayward child.
Speaker 3: Like not bad, but not really that good either. I mean,
Speaker 3: I was the type of person who was of course
Speaker 3: I was integrating the people who like drank and did drugs,
Speaker 3: but I didn't do it, you know. So it was
Speaker 3: this constant dual identity of like being in it but
Speaker 3: not amongst it, understanding it but not being able to
Speaker 3: speak about it. You know. My culture, myself, my identity
Speaker 3: is so convoluted. I truly believe that if I wasn't,
Speaker 3: if I didn't end up in a position where I
Speaker 3: was front facing and was expected or presumed to know things,
Speaker 3: I would never have gotten to a point where I
Speaker 3: appreciated knowing things and being able to articulate and whatever whatever.
Speaker 3: That's why I can kind of sympathize with people who
Speaker 3: don't have incentive to also know things. Yeah, because the
Speaker 3: world doesn't really ask it of you. Yeah, you're just
Speaker 3: allowed to exist and be. And then one day somebody says, hey, flex,
Speaker 3: so what do you think about cultural appropriation? And I say, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't care. And they say, oh, but I was
Speaker 3: reading on the internet that you should ask you know,
Speaker 3: the black people around you and they'll tell you. And
Speaker 3: I'm asking you and you don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what can I tell you?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm sorry, it's not my interests. Oh
Speaker 3: my god, I'm not an activist.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's already just that, you know, first ten
Speaker 2: minutes of this conversation is or twenty minutes or whatever
Speaker 2: it's been, has already been one of the sort of
Speaker 2: deepest reflections that I've had in a long time in
Speaker 2: a conversation about the different layers of identity and narratives
Speaker 2: and culture and the intersection of all the facets of
Speaker 2: your identity that aren't all that they're not always ethnicity base,
Speaker 2: Like most teenagers and young people go through a loss
Speaker 2: and that wayward stage of who.
Speaker 1: Am I am? I?
Speaker 3: Loud?
Speaker 1: Am I? Quiet?
Speaker 2: Am I an email? Am I like the soprey gal
Speaker 2: am I? Eastern suburbs or Western suburbs? And You're not
Speaker 2: the first person, by any means who I've spoken to recently.
Speaker 2: In fact, our last guest was an Indigenous Australian Olympian
Speaker 2: and I sort of expected this narrative to come out
Speaker 2: of I was bullied when I was younger, you know,
Speaker 2: racism and questions, and she basically didn't even realize she
Speaker 2: was Aboriginal until she was in high school. And I,
Speaker 2: you know, it was like, oh, okay, well I've left
Speaker 2: all this time for this particular narrative that we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about. But I loved reading in interviews that
Speaker 2: you've done before that where are you from? In high school?
Speaker 2: Was more like what part of Sydney are you from?
Speaker 2: Absolutely that it was not you know, you haven't had
Speaker 2: this narrative everyone's abscribing to you of what was it
Speaker 2: like being black growing up in Australia, Like that was
Speaker 2: probably not the biggest angst that you were necessarily going
Speaker 2: through as a teenage girl, being like, it's all the
Speaker 2: other things that you're worried about, That's exactly it.
Speaker 3: And I feel as though it's the reason why I
Speaker 3: fought against leaning into certain conversations, because they were all
Speaker 3: sort of based on a foundation of a really specific
Speaker 3: narrative where you know, it must have been hard, you
Speaker 3: must have struggled to assimilate. You know, it must have
Speaker 3: been difficult. It's like, no, it wasn't, like it wasn't.
Speaker 3: And I also think I carried this at naivety about
Speaker 3: the way black people might have been perceived that when
Speaker 3: people were asking questions or being a bit offensive, I
Speaker 3: wasn't processing, you know, I was like, surely, I mean,
Speaker 3: maybe they said that I look like a monkey, because
Speaker 3: maybe I do. Maybe it's not a racial thing. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like, that's the way your mind works because you're
Speaker 3: not exposed to these things. And so as you begin
Speaker 3: to develop your understanding of the way identity is so pervasive,
Speaker 3: and of the way that people subconsciously attribute certain characteristics
Speaker 3: and personalities to you purely because of the way you
Speaker 3: appear to them, it becomes a way more nuanced conversation
Speaker 3: That's why these days I worry about the way people
Speaker 3: are introduced to having these conversations because there is no
Speaker 3: one homogeneous Black experience. There's barely a homogenous Black Australian experience,
Speaker 3: even if we were to dwindle it down to the
Speaker 3: Black Australian heterosexual female experience. Now it's not homogeneous. And
Speaker 3: so when these conversations happen and people are said, you know,
Speaker 3: to quite literally do this. This is how you should
Speaker 3: show your support, This is how you should show your interest,
Speaker 3: this is what you should do in order to be
Speaker 3: a good ally or a well versed person, or you know,
Speaker 3: an emotionally aware person. And suddenly it's not being received
Speaker 3: by the people that you're meant to be doing it for.
Speaker 3: Then you're in this tricky territory of being like, well wait,
Speaker 3: hold on, I don't even understand the problem. Yes, wait,
Speaker 3: I like, what do they actually go through? And like, hah, totally,
Speaker 3: I don't think I get it. And I think I
Speaker 3: had a similar conversation a few weeks ago. I think
Speaker 3: I know where somebody has said to me. You know,
Speaker 3: I find it hard to comprehend that black people are
Speaker 3: so you know, marginalized or they're like their thought of
Speaker 3: as being less than in any circumstance, because all the
Speaker 3: black people that I'm aware of are exposed to our
Speaker 3: celebrities are affluent, rich people with power, So don't I
Speaker 3: can't fathom that the same people and now talking about
Speaker 3: how oppressed they are. And I was like, wow, this
Speaker 3: is part of the issue. If your only exposure to
Speaker 3: a certain type of person is through a very specific lens,
Speaker 3: then how can you fathom you should be able to
Speaker 3: I think that's a very generic skill that most people
Speaker 3: should be able to do, to perceive things that they
Speaker 3: can't actually taste, sea, feeling, touch. Yeah, and if you're
Speaker 3: not an intuitive person, maybe that's not something that's very
Speaker 3: easy for you to do. But for the rest of us,
Speaker 3: like I can quite easily sympathize to what it is
Speaker 3: to be a white man without being one. It's very easy.
Speaker 3: It seems a bit difficult.
Speaker 2: But I also think it's Yeah, it's so interesting how
Speaker 2: so much of the dialogue has been assuming that experiences
Speaker 2: are really homogeneous, and then you actually get into a
Speaker 2: conversation and most of the things you assume are going
Speaker 2: to be the things you talk about aren't, And actually,
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, their ethnicity is such a
Speaker 2: small I mean, it's been a big part of their experience,
Speaker 2: and it's been a big part of what other people
Speaker 2: project onto them as part of their identity, but for
Speaker 2: them personally, they're like, actually, my ethnicity is not the
Speaker 2: biggest thing. It's not my biggest feature. Like, I don't
Speaker 2: know why you all insist on making the conversation about
Speaker 2: that when like even you know, Teliko I had on
Speaker 2: last week and I really wanted to cover a lot
Speaker 2: about Indigenous Australia and her experience in the community, because
Speaker 2: I wanted to make the episode an opportunity for education
Speaker 2: for people who hadn't had as much exposure to the
Speaker 2: Aboriginal community or what her journey might have been like.
Speaker 2: And she was sort of like, it's really not a
Speaker 2: big part of my journey, like that, it's a huge
Speaker 2: part of my identity.
Speaker 1: I'm really really proud of it.
Speaker 2: I have experienced good and bad from it, but I
Speaker 2: also am an athlete. I went to the Olympics. Like
Speaker 2: that's I don't see.
Speaker 3: It, absolutely I could imagine.
Speaker 2: And so on that note about the other facets of
Speaker 2: our identity, I think the other thing that's been really
Speaker 2: interesting about knowing you is you come across now as
Speaker 2: so clear on your thoughts and so self aware with
Speaker 2: hindsight on all those different stages of your journey and
Speaker 2: now occupy such a unique part of society. But I
Speaker 2: love that you're aware that you you've found your right
Speaker 2: balance between conformity and uniqueness, and you see it exactly
Speaker 2: where it's comfortable for you. But I love also that
Speaker 2: to remind everyone that even the most sure of people
Speaker 2: and even the most different and taboo breaking of people,
Speaker 2: you have to sort of start somewhere. You know, you
Speaker 2: started quite conventional, like gas reading. You worked at Zoos
Speaker 2: Shoes in twenty twelve in PR and I'm like, literally
Speaker 2: was it an office?
Speaker 3: Like I don't in at one point I was at,
Speaker 3: you know that girl who went to UNI in he
Speaker 3: a full face of makeup because I wanted to present
Speaker 3: the job that I wanted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I was like, even to McLay College.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've had a McClay graduate on a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks ago, and I'm like, I just can't imagine
Speaker 2: you now having gone through all those phases. But you
Speaker 2: have to, so of course tell us about coming into
Speaker 2: your full voice and those early days when you couldn't
Speaker 2: be as different as you wanted to be and it
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been as well received. And also you didn't
Speaker 2: necessarily know what your voice was then. So was it
Speaker 2: as you went out of PR and then into DJing
Speaker 2: that that happened or was it before?
Speaker 1: Like when did that all unravel?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I can recall, perhaps, you know, eleven year,
Speaker 3: eleven year, twelve and graduating high school, that in itself
Speaker 3: was a very accelerated identity evolution because suddenly I was
Speaker 3: becoming more and more aware of how I was being perceived.
Speaker 3: I wasn't liking it. I didn't know the right words
Speaker 3: or phrases to attribute to what I was feeling or
Speaker 3: what was being done to me. Yeah, of course people
Speaker 3: aren't racist, but can they say they didn't expect me
Speaker 3: to speak English? Like? Is that not offensive? Am I
Speaker 3: being too? So it was just recalibration. And I guess
Speaker 3: because growing up in the Eastern suburbs and then you know,
Speaker 3: having the majority of the black community living in the
Speaker 3: Western suburbs, my only kind of access to them was
Speaker 3: through church, and I stopped going to church as like
Speaker 3: a thirteen fourteen year old because I was like, I
Speaker 3: don't like love spirituality. I don't know if I can
Speaker 3: do the church thing.
Speaker 2: I can imagine you're saying it exactly like that in
Speaker 2: your own mind. I'm not sure I can do this
Speaker 2: church thing anymore.
Speaker 1: Guys, Yeah, it's not for me.
Speaker 3: So as I was beginning to grow older and I
Speaker 3: understand that my identity was inherently black and African, but
Speaker 3: not having a varied access point or a touch point
Speaker 3: to experience that I had. My mum's very warped sense
Speaker 3: of view, not warped, but walked from mine because she
Speaker 3: came here thirty something years ago, but she had to
Speaker 3: be in a refugee detention center, like she had to
Speaker 3: really work her way up to be seen as, you know,
Speaker 3: an equal in a lot of spaces. And then my
Speaker 3: brothers being two African men, you know, one being born
Speaker 3: here but one being born in Ghana, also having first
Speaker 3: hand access to what it's like to be seen as others,
Speaker 3: because the experience of black men, I'm sure in a
Speaker 3: lot of cases is a bit more volatile than the
Speaker 3: experience of the black women. You know, the stereotyped black
Speaker 3: women can of course be dangerous, but they're more so petty,
Speaker 3: whereas the ones to black men really remove them from
Speaker 3: certain environments because oh no, you might rub me, you
Speaker 3: might steal something from me, might write me. It's just
Speaker 3: too much. So it was, yeah, an accelerated part of
Speaker 3: my learning where I did this thing where I kind
Speaker 3: of shed my skin in the sense that I took
Speaker 3: away all the stuff that I was trying to use
Speaker 3: as a buffer to the real mean. So that means
Speaker 3: that I had to stop dressing so overtly emo because
Speaker 3: it really wasn't my identity and I was overenthusing. So
Speaker 3: we had to stop with the platform, stop with the
Speaker 3: black lipstick, stop with a black eyeline, and stop with
Speaker 3: the scene hand all of it. Right. So when I
Speaker 3: took that part off, I was left with a blank canvas,
Speaker 3: and I thought, this is a good opportunity to see
Speaker 3: that if I presented as someone who was more conventionally conventional,
Speaker 3: would that change my experience? And so I just started
Speaker 3: dressing normal as an Aquarius moon would. So that meant,
Speaker 3: you know, hairstyled every day, beautiful extensions in full face
Speaker 3: and makeup, you know, full outfit, heels, handbag clack clack
Speaker 3: clack clack, black making a point, making a scene. Oh,
Speaker 3: I could never wear jeans, I could never wear a
Speaker 3: T shirt. I'm just too business focused for that.
Speaker 1: I'm so professional.
Speaker 3: Is I'm just too professional to ever be comfortable. That's
Speaker 3: not in my point of thinking. Obviously not obviously not
Speaker 3: so spending about eighteen to i'd say twenty being that person,
Speaker 3: and also now seeing that the I was presenting, even
Speaker 3: though I thought it was bland and blank, was also
Speaker 3: projecting an identity. You know, it was maybe segregating me
Speaker 3: from feeling like I was approachable or personable, because it
Speaker 3: wasn't like walking into a UNI and being like clacklack, like,
Speaker 3: hey everyone, I put my hand back down. It's not accessible.
Speaker 3: And so again I moved out of that space. And
Speaker 3: I remember being in PR and I could feel like
Speaker 3: I was going to push myself into hyper identifying as
Speaker 3: the PR girl and wearing what they wore and speaking
Speaker 3: how they spoke and thinking what they thought, because I
Speaker 3: didn't have space and time to step away and identify, well,
Speaker 3: if I don't want to be seen as these people,
Speaker 3: what am I comfortable being seen as? Because I still
Speaker 3: was in a space where I could show my natural hair,
Speaker 3: people would know I was black. I couldn't do that
Speaker 3: right completely visible. You know, I certainly can't go to
Speaker 3: Garner and see my extent of family. People will know
Speaker 3: that I'm not do you know?
Speaker 1: That is so interesting.
Speaker 2: I've had that exact same thing where I went through
Speaker 2: a phase of like complete denial of being Asian like
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 1: Don't know what part of my brain was, like it's
Speaker 1: it's not off it it makes sense. It's a secret
Speaker 1: like no.
Speaker 3: One And it's funny to laugh about now because it's
Speaker 3: so ludicrous, But as you just said, it's not an
Speaker 3: uncommon thing. So people who are visibly different to do.
Speaker 3: And so I had to think to myself, well, if
Speaker 3: I'm so help bent on not being seen as that person,
Speaker 3: and then who was this person? What can we settle
Speaker 3: back into. Interestingly enough, at the time, I was in
Speaker 3: PR and I was just in a weird spot where
Speaker 3: I was giving too much of myself to a job
Speaker 3: and I was tying all of my self worth into
Speaker 3: my career. And because it's not something that I was
Speaker 3: really interested in and it's something that really required everything
Speaker 3: that you had, I just felt so depleted all the time,
Speaker 3: and I thought maybe I wouldn't feel depleted if I
Speaker 3: had any anything else going for me, any interest, any hobbies,
Speaker 3: any way to express myself. And at the time, you know,
Speaker 3: being twenty, all of my friends were still going out
Speaker 3: getting kissed or whatever. But I did the binge drinking
Speaker 3: thing from fifteen to eighteen, but didn't ever learn how
Speaker 3: to socially drink. So I was going out, not drinking,
Speaker 3: being really sober, being like, fuck, this is so boring,
Speaker 3: and I felt I love the environment, I love getting
Speaker 3: dressed up, I love having access to this, but like,
Speaker 3: I want to be here with the purpose. I would
Speaker 3: love to like be a door girl, like get paid,
Speaker 3: hang out whatever. So that's what I did, right, And
Speaker 3: the promoters that I met ran this club night that
Speaker 3: was called Side Changed, and it was not a normal
Speaker 3: club night, because that's not where an Aquarius mood would
Speaker 3: want to go to. It was a club night that
Speaker 3: was made for and by Internet kids. And if you
Speaker 3: can imagine, it's twenty twelve, twenty eleven, and so it's
Speaker 3: a time where you know, dressing like the internet was bit.
Speaker 3: We were wearing like cool platform boots and holog and you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, oh my god, I forgot about remember.
Speaker 3: And like having weird hair and just being a little
Speaker 3: bit weird, you know, but it was expected to see
Speaker 3: it on the internet, but we were bringing it to
Speaker 3: a real life space. And then suddenly, before I knew it,
Speaker 3: I was wrapped up in being this club kid, you know,
Speaker 3: dressing skin, skin heels, heels, platform boots, like crazy makeup,
Speaker 3: crazy hair, I'm just crazy, unique girl. And again, before
Speaker 3: I knew I was just settling into another identity because
Speaker 3: I just didn't know who I was or how I
Speaker 3: wanted to be perceived. And at the time, identifying or
Speaker 3: looking as I was a club kid was very beneficial.
Speaker 3: We were the coolest, we were the most connected.
Speaker 2: We hadous VIPs who goes straight to the front of
Speaker 2: the line. Legitimately, I remember those days where I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna wear my belt as a skirt because
Speaker 2: I will get in and I'll just be a club
Speaker 2: right and not be a maker.
Speaker 3: And it was such a time. And so it was
Speaker 3: in that period where I then started DJing and then
Speaker 3: transitioned from you know, a girl who DJ to being
Speaker 3: a full time DJ. And then you grow a little
Speaker 3: bit older and suddenly realize you just don't want to
Speaker 3: be like dressing up like a literal like whatever we
Speaker 3: looked like anymore. It just was getting to a point
Speaker 3: where I was having to wear a quote unquote normal
Speaker 3: outfit out of the house and pack a separate change
Speaker 3: of clothes in my bag because I didn't want to
Speaker 3: get abused on the trainer in the uber to the club,
Speaker 3: and it was all too much and so I hadn't.
Speaker 3: It was an epiphany, but kind of a waking up
Speaker 3: moment where it always happened to when I look at
Speaker 3: my wardrobe and feel like it doesn't reflect me because
Speaker 3: I've spent all this money and time really trying to
Speaker 3: be somebody different, and it was it kind of coincided
Speaker 3: with being a DJ and getting pr for that, and
Speaker 3: also being like, fuck, I just don't want to be
Speaker 3: seen as a club kid, club kid, club kid, because
Speaker 3: then it's like club kid ethics were thrown onto me
Speaker 3: in club kid conversations and I didn't know or care
Speaker 3: about them, And so I made a kind of vow
Speaker 3: to just be because I was finally in a position
Speaker 3: where being a DJ, you can imagine like you're kind
Speaker 3: of given. How do I explain it? It's just a
Speaker 3: cloudy kind of job. People assume you're like, I'm attle, smart,
Speaker 3: like aware, like you're creative, you're all of these things.
Speaker 3: And so I thought, finally in a position where how
Speaker 3: I'm being perceived matches how I feel about myself, so
Speaker 3: it's up to me to sort of do the extra groundwork.
Speaker 3: And so dressing how I felt and wearing what I
Speaker 3: wanted and speaking what I felt were all part of
Speaker 3: that process. You could only do so much intentionally, because
Speaker 3: I mean, you you have to in some cases change
Speaker 3: the way you operate overnight for you to really do it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so I didn't know what I was doing, but
Speaker 3: I just definitely knew that there was a way that
Speaker 3: I wanted to be perceived and it had to match
Speaker 3: to what I felt and to every conversation. I had
Speaker 3: to get away from being that charming ares who's just
Speaker 3: down floor a chat and it's always here to tell
Speaker 3: the story and just say how do I feel like
Speaker 3: I want to operate in this space what feels most aligned?
Speaker 3: And I think that it was easy for me to
Speaker 3: do that and to settle into being myself because I
Speaker 3: was in a position in my life where I was
Speaker 3: finally given room to yeah, like, wow, if you're the
Speaker 3: DJ It means that you have the answers, You've moved
Speaker 3: from a traditional job to an unconventional job. You live
Speaker 3: in your own apartment, you do what you want, You've
Speaker 3: made money from being yourself. You must have the vision,
Speaker 3: you've got you've got it all. And I didn't, but
Speaker 3: now suddenly I had space where I could figure it out,
Speaker 3: you know, and so it all had to be super conscious.
Speaker 3: And I remember there was this time when I was eighteen, right,
Speaker 3: and I had just was one year out of high school,
Speaker 3: and I remember I was going to Tafe to study
Speaker 3: fashion business, just because I thought that if you liked clothes,
Speaker 3: you should work in fashion. So I would go to
Speaker 3: Tafe like every other day and not listen and not
Speaker 3: apply myself, just fuck around. And there was one time
Speaker 3: where I thought, okay, I have assessments, and shit, I
Speaker 3: should just go to the library, role play academia and
Speaker 3: then I'll get some work done. Didn't happen. Took a
Speaker 3: phone call, was walking up and down the library. What
Speaker 3: do you call them aisles? I think asles, I guess so.
Speaker 3: And I remember it sort of like randomly stopping in
Speaker 3: the self development area because the conversation had got into
Speaker 3: a juicy point where I couldn't walk and talk was
Speaker 3: far too complicated.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, absolutely, I know.
Speaker 2: It hits like this critical point where you're like, I
Speaker 2: can't use my energy on my legs.
Speaker 3: No, I must listen. And I remember running my fingers
Speaker 3: through the spines of the book and then picking up
Speaker 3: just a random blue one that I was flipping through
Speaker 3: to do something with my hands as I was listening,
Speaker 3: because it was a listening conversation for me, not a
Speaker 3: speaking one. I needed something to keep me engaged. And
Speaker 3: by the end of the conversation, I was like walking
Speaker 3: out of the library and just took this book with me.
Speaker 3: Didn't even think about it, really, just took it. Nothing beaped,
Speaker 3: which is odd, but you know what.
Speaker 1: It is, because it's an honor system, babe.
Speaker 3: I mean, I get on the train and the book
Speaker 3: is like it's like how to understand people by understanding
Speaker 3: yourself a book by Florence Littauer or something right, And
Speaker 3: it was a book all about personality archetypes in the
Speaker 3: way that every individual person, as unique as they may be,
Speaker 3: falls into an archetype just naturally because we're conditioned to
Speaker 3: do so by a environment and society, and I thought
Speaker 3: it was just the coolest thing and so. And also
Speaker 3: in high school, I was really into the maes Briggs
Speaker 3: personality typing thing. I used to do it on everyone
Speaker 3: because you know why, I couldn't figure out who I was.
Speaker 3: I made my main priority to figuret who everybody else was.
Speaker 3: I get you, you're this, You're an IRONTJ. I see it.
Speaker 3: You're one dimensional to me. Don't even worry about having
Speaker 3: it like I really thought I knew. And so fast
Speaker 3: forward into adulthood, I started to go back to that.
Speaker 3: I thought, if I'm really struggling to see who I
Speaker 3: am without looking at it through the lens of everybody else,
Speaker 3: what would happen if I just used the system that
Speaker 3: would reflect my answers back at me, and that would
Speaker 3: be a really good starting point to figure out who
Speaker 3: this bitch is and helped because suddenly I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: like okay, I guess I do. I am really concerned
Speaker 3: about being valued and expressing my value is really important,
Speaker 3: and having my value being seen is very important. It
Speaker 3: makes sense why I go into environments and want to
Speaker 3: be want to feel like I'm in a position where
Speaker 3: if I was to express myself, I'd be heard that
Speaker 3: is important.
Speaker 2: What else, oh man, I honestly am like, firstly, how
Speaker 2: are you twenty five? Because most people hit this like
Speaker 2: critical point if ever, in like their fifties and sixties,
Speaker 2: which is why it's called a midlife crisis, because they've
Speaker 2: had this one.
Speaker 1: Identity of their whole life.
Speaker 2: You've done the work, You've done the work like before
Speaker 2: your quarter life crisis, which is incredible. But also it's
Speaker 2: so interesting you said before how you looked at your
Speaker 2: wardrobe and you were like, this doesn't reflect who I am.
Speaker 1: I think that's on a broader it's like a broader.
Speaker 2: Metaphor for life where people step back and they look
Speaker 2: at their life and they're like, this doesn't fit me,
Speaker 2: like what we spend so much time being some other person?
Speaker 2: And really there are actually a lot of tools and
Speaker 2: you can create the space for yourself in your life
Speaker 2: to wipe this late clean and do the work as
Speaker 2: we call it, and do this exercise that you did
Speaker 2: to sort of now be exactly who you are unapologetically
Speaker 2: and not feel such a dissonance between what your life
Speaker 2: reflects about you and who you actually are.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and there's a level of I mean, personality typing
Speaker 3: only created a foundation for me to work on top
Speaker 3: of it was when I had uncovered this the idea
Speaker 3: of critical thinking, and that really it just really connected
Speaker 3: the dots for me, because I guess once you get
Speaker 3: into the point where you like understand who you are
Speaker 3: and your self aware enough to know how you appear
Speaker 3: and whatever, there is a gap because self awareness isn't
Speaker 3: just what you do, it's why you do it. What
Speaker 3: influence is why you do it, why you're made aware
Speaker 3: of it, all of these things, and I guess I
Speaker 3: was back to square one, but just in a more
Speaker 3: elevated way where instead of really exploring what it meant
Speaker 3: to feel like myself, I was now latching onto But
Speaker 3: I'm an antp and my archetype is you know, A, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm an ediogram pree wing two. And then you're like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: these things are all true. But what's my belief system,
Speaker 3: what's my moral code? Do I have ethics? Do I
Speaker 3: actually care about anything? What do I feel? And for
Speaker 3: the most point, I mean, I'm personally someone that might
Speaker 3: I care about very few things, and I definitely think
Speaker 3: that when you're in a position of influence the world
Speaker 3: wants you to care about everything, right. You gotta care
Speaker 3: about the environment, about the animals, about people, about experiences,
Speaker 3: about the system, about status. And it's like I can
Speaker 3: be aware, I can be highly educated on things and
Speaker 3: not fundamentally care, and that for me creates a lot
Speaker 3: of space to put extra effort into what really matters
Speaker 3: to me and understanding who I am actually matters, because
Speaker 3: it's been the cornerstone of why do any of anything right.
Speaker 3: It's the reason why I can get paid to just
Speaker 3: tell people what I think, because I've really taken time
Speaker 3: to figure out what I think matters, and how I
Speaker 3: think about things matters, and how I express myself matters,
Speaker 3: and my opinion matters, and unfortunately not everybody does.
Speaker 2: But that's so interesting as well that I think that's
Speaker 2: probably what I've been on the cusp of realizing for
Speaker 2: myself as well as I've always been a bit of
Speaker 2: an overcareer and realize that that actually dilutes my potential
Speaker 2: impact if I just really more selectively chose the things
Speaker 2: that I gave a fuck about. And like I had
Speaker 2: Mark Manson on a couple of weeks ago and re
Speaker 2: read his book in reflecting on his whole idea of
Speaker 2: you know, the satellite of not giving a fuck doesn't
Speaker 2: mean be indifferent and apathetic and like don't care about anything,
Speaker 2: but it means just choose. Like there's a limited amount
Speaker 2: of energy and time and a limited amount of other
Speaker 2: people's attention towards what you have to say, so like,
Speaker 2: maybe be a bit more selective if you can't be
Speaker 2: the ambassador for everything in life, but you can have
Speaker 2: a huge impact.
Speaker 1: On the things that you choose really carefully.
Speaker 2: And I love that about you because you kind of
Speaker 2: give us all permission to be like I actually am
Speaker 2: okay with caring about the things I care about, giving
Speaker 2: my all to those things and everything else someone else
Speaker 2: can do.
Speaker 3: I love that absolutely. It's because I fundamentally care about
Speaker 3: self awareness and fundamentally care about critical thinking and learning
Speaker 3: and articulating myself that I am this person. And I
Speaker 3: feel as though when people are asking for insight, onto
Speaker 3: you know, expand their view of the world and to
Speaker 3: be able to really understand what they think and why
Speaker 3: they think, it it's a performance because it feels good
Speaker 3: to people to know that you know, But in reality,
Speaker 3: it takes so much time, so much effort, so much
Speaker 3: introspection that if you don't really care, then don't do
Speaker 3: it because it's not beneficial to you or anybody around you.
Speaker 3: And then you fall into that trap of the person
Speaker 3: who's self aware of all the ways they are a
Speaker 3: menace to society. I'm so annoying every time I go
Speaker 3: on a date with someone, like, I'm just so unengaged
Speaker 3: because I just want to get me through. That's not cute.
Speaker 3: We need to know that, you know. She's like, Oh,
Speaker 3: I'm so terrible. Like I love the environment, I really do,
Speaker 3: and I always get mad at people so buying fast fashion,
Speaker 3: but I will never use a keep cup. People always say, like,
Speaker 3: people say these things, and I've literally overheard this doesn't
Speaker 3: add up. You don't have to be this way.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I love it so literally.
Speaker 2: When I first bought this, the very first reflex card
Speaker 2: that I pulled out of the packet, this was like
Speaker 2: maybe last year was would you rather be hated for
Speaker 2: who you are or loved for who you aren't? And
Speaker 2: it's just like fundamentally one of the most important questions
Speaker 2: anyone can ask themselves. And I love how you have
Speaker 2: been a shadd of the skin and have worn many skins,
Speaker 2: because that's exactly what a way to journey is is.
Speaker 2: You don't I always say, you know, you don't have
Speaker 2: to see the whole staircase to take the first step.
Speaker 2: You probably at each of those steps would never have
Speaker 2: known that you'd end up a professional opinion have her
Speaker 2: who actually gets paid to do the stuff you really
Speaker 2: really care about and love. But that's where you ended up,
Speaker 2: and it took a lot of steps to get there.
Speaker 2: But now you are you know, you're what do you
Speaker 2: call yourself? A multidisciplinary millennial in media? You're her, that's
Speaker 2: her MTV presenter, Bobo and flex podcast beauty Guru. You
Speaker 2: are a co founder of flex Factory. Like, there's just
Speaker 2: so many things now in so many ways that you
Speaker 2: are doing exactly what you love and exactly what is you.
Speaker 2: But I love how openly you remind us of all that,
Speaker 2: Like you don't wake up like that.
Speaker 3: No, And also it's just not for everyone. It's very
Speaker 3: easy to have a very stylized and idealized view of
Speaker 3: the way somebody does what they do, But none of
Speaker 3: this shit is easy. Like it's easy for me because
Speaker 3: I enjoy it, But fundamentally, any form of improving developing, upskilling, evolving,
Speaker 3: transforming is hard, absolutely, and if you don't have to
Speaker 3: do it, and if it's not going to be something
Speaker 3: that you are committed to doing, then don't even worry
Speaker 3: about it. I mean, the question would you rather be
Speaker 3: hated for who you are and love for who you aren't?
Speaker 3: Is such a cliche because I don't think the average
Speaker 3: person is acutely aware of how they move through the
Speaker 3: world begging for approval, because it really is important to
Speaker 3: be felt as though you're liked and loved. And it's
Speaker 3: really interesting because when I play that game or when
Speaker 3: I answer that question with people, they always assume I
Speaker 3: prefer to be hated for who I am. Fuck no,
Speaker 3: you know how terrible it is to be on the
Speaker 3: receiving end of anything, but like acceptance and warmth. I'm
Speaker 3: not a crusader, Like I'm not trying to be the
Speaker 3: person who is the antagonist, you know, the one who's
Speaker 3: just like the anarchist is doing things. It's what I
Speaker 3: want to do. And if no, I'm acutely aware of
Speaker 3: how good it feels to be put on a pedestal
Speaker 3: or projected upon in a positive way. And I'm quite
Speaker 3: comfortable with that because I always know I'm never going
Speaker 3: to be in a position where i can go to
Speaker 3: each individual person that has access to me and explain
Speaker 3: them exactly who I am and the way I want
Speaker 3: to be seen. It doesn't matter, and I don't really care, like,
Speaker 3: just give me the good shit because I am motivated
Speaker 3: by pleasure and leisure and feeling good and being loved
Speaker 3: like that's fun. Not being mad.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think another thing that really stands out
Speaker 2: and why you have the longevity and support that you
Speaker 2: do in what you do, even though if other people
Speaker 2: were as sort of taboo breaking or open about things
Speaker 2: that make other people uncomfortable, is because it's clear that
Speaker 2: you're not doing it just to be controversial. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: it's clear that you're not just like I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: like cause a fuss here, I'm just say shit that
Speaker 2: makes people uncomfortable because it's fun, Like you do it
Speaker 2: because you care about sexual liberation and you care about
Speaker 2: education of you know, people about topics they wouldn't normally
Speaker 2: engage in, and you do it so well.
Speaker 3: Per And it's an interesting way to put it because
Speaker 3: I now are in this time where of like what
Speaker 3: call it I don't know like radical, which is a
Speaker 3: very radical time at the moment, and people are getting
Speaker 3: thrust into evolution prematurely. You know, yesterday you weren't aware
Speaker 3: of the way black lives were disproportionately affected to other lives,
Speaker 3: but today you are and suddenly want to be an activist.
Speaker 3: It literally cannot happen overnight because your ability to understand
Speaker 3: can't be fully evolved in a night. And what we
Speaker 3: see is, like you said this, it's not even contra
Speaker 3: People aren't trying to be controversial the sense of like,
Speaker 3: let me jump on, but there's this definitely their motivation
Speaker 3: doesn't match with their actions and it doesn't ever feel genuine.
Speaker 3: And I feel like we are in a time of
Speaker 3: performative everything, performative activism, performative relatability, performative understanding, performative normalhood.
Speaker 3: I too have depression, I too cry, and it's like
Speaker 3: we get it. But if you spend half that time
Speaker 3: just trying to better communicate who you are and the
Speaker 3: expectations of you, then maybe you wouldn't be bullied for
Speaker 3: not advocate heading for certain groups, and maybe you wouldn't
Speaker 3: feel pressure to show that you are a keep cup
Speaker 3: using environmentally conscious, so and so. You know, people always
Speaker 3: use that annoying cliche phrase it's like moving through the
Speaker 3: world with intention and blah blah blah, But it so matters.
Speaker 3: It is in your best debt and it's in your
Speaker 3: best interest to figure out who you are and how
Speaker 3: you want to be perceived so you can start living
Speaker 3: a life on your own terms. Everybody always says to me,
Speaker 3: you're so lucky that you can like have you like,
Speaker 3: do what you want and say how you feel. It
Speaker 3: wasn't luck. Going against the grain isn't beneficial until it is,
Speaker 3: you know, like these things went well received just because
Speaker 3: I did it. You don't see the das be like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're just like a DJ. Stick to what you know,
Speaker 3: don't talk about these things, blah blah blah. And suddenly
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, can we borrow your mind. Here's a
Speaker 3: consulting fee's there's a process, you know, and don't stress
Speaker 3: yourself out if you're not here for I'm not saying
Speaker 3: not to give things a go and see how they fit.
Speaker 3: But also if we all cumulatively spent just an extra
Speaker 3: few minutes a day critically thinking, assessing what we do,
Speaker 3: why we do it what impacted what we're doing and
Speaker 3: what we really think the benefit is of anything that
Speaker 3: we're doing, because we all have an agenda. We all
Speaker 3: have agendas. It's just a matter of a lot of
Speaker 3: us aren't really aware of why we do the things
Speaker 3: we do. As soon as you can get down to
Speaker 3: the like the nooks and crannies, you start to feel free, gily,
Speaker 3: You're just like, ugh, I know why I do this.
Speaker 3: I know I can comfortably say that I do care
Speaker 3: about things and I don't care about things. I have
Speaker 3: agency because I've given myself that agency. Nobody said, hey, flex,
Speaker 3: now we think it's appropriate that you can speak about
Speaker 3: things you care about. I did it anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, But that's actually such a good point because
Speaker 2: with anyone who's doing something different in any way, like
Speaker 2: even just like you know, technological innovation or product innovation
Speaker 2: or thought innovation in your case, it is really unpopular
Speaker 2: and controversial until it's not.
Speaker 1: But someone has.
Speaker 2: To go through that bit first, which is why I
Speaker 2: love to go back to the very beginning when you
Speaker 2: weren't able to be as freely yourself and probably didn't
Speaker 2: know who that was anyway, but you couldn't have been
Speaker 2: born into the world flexmami as you are now.
Speaker 1: It just wouldn't you know.
Speaker 2: That's not how people's journeys go, and that's not how
Speaker 2: change is generated, and that's not how unique voices in
Speaker 2: society develop. You have to go through all the conformity
Speaker 2: and then you have to go through it all to
Speaker 2: actually make get the trust and build the voice that
Speaker 2: you have today. I don't think luck. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think luck is a part of the journey for you know, everyone,
Speaker 2: But I think most of it is that you're a
Speaker 2: damn hard worker and you are willing to just put
Speaker 2: yourself on the line while you explored all these parts
Speaker 2: of yourself and now you've earned where you are to
Speaker 2: be able to be a professional opinion ever because you've
Speaker 2: spent so long working on your opinion.
Speaker 3: That's it. It's interesting because they tell people to like
Speaker 3: it's all about assessing what actually works for you. Because
Speaker 3: I speak to my boyfriend about this sometime, He's come like,
Speaker 3: I guess I could do what you do. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you are a risk analyst. You can finance. Everything you
Speaker 3: do is binary. There is a way it needs to
Speaker 3: be done for the best possible outcome, and you don't stray,
Speaker 3: And there's a reason you don't because all the risk
Speaker 3: analysts before you have proved that this is the best
Speaker 3: way to do. So what we do commodifying ourselves is
Speaker 3: very risky. I feel like people forget that people aren't
Speaker 3: inherently likable, you know, like not everyone can be in
Speaker 3: a position where they not only sell themselves their personality,
Speaker 3: their interests, their beliefs, the way those dots need to connect,
Speaker 3: the way you need to be so acutely aware of
Speaker 3: how you're perceived and what spaces you can enter. I
Speaker 3: definite wouldn't say it's rocket signed, but it's just not
Speaker 3: simple work. And often if you had to outweigh the
Speaker 3: benefits of the pros and the cons, this industry is
Speaker 3: riddled with cons. Even the idea of every week jumping
Speaker 3: on to express how you feel and then being tied
Speaker 3: to those ideas absurd.
Speaker 1: So absurd. I'm so upset, And yet.
Speaker 3: We do it because we can, and because we're comfortable
Speaker 3: with what we're saying and how we're saying it. Are
Speaker 3: we the first person say tomorrow, Oh, you know, I
Speaker 3: take it back. I don't really, I don't really subscribe
Speaker 3: to those beliefs but there's a certain confidence in being
Speaker 3: able to do so. If you don't have that, then practice.
Speaker 3: H it's the small things. The next time you go
Speaker 3: to a restaurant and somebody asks you, how was that,
Speaker 3: let them know I really did enjoy myself. You know,
Speaker 3: I thought that the juice came out a little bit late,
Speaker 3: but I enjoyed myself. The next time your friend asks you,
Speaker 3: you know, how'd you feel about me inviting my boyfriend
Speaker 3: to your birthday? Babe? I prefer you didn't like I
Speaker 3: haven't seen you in a minute. It's just been It
Speaker 3: would be really nice to connect with you one on
Speaker 3: one or one on nine with the other girls coming.
Speaker 3: These are all ways you start to fortify you know
Speaker 3: who you are. You can't be mister missus passes and
Speaker 3: then wonder why you're not in a position where articulation
Speaker 3: comes naturally to you. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Flex What do you make.
Speaker 2: Such valuable reflections for so many people who I think
Speaker 2: are sort of mister and missus passive and then are
Speaker 2: like wondering why they don't have the platform then to
Speaker 2: express themselves.
Speaker 1: Or the language.
Speaker 2: So now that you do have so many different outlets
Speaker 2: and are living a flashy life.
Speaker 1: What are your favorite ways to b flex? Is it?
Speaker 1: Do you still DJ?
Speaker 2: I know you do it every now and then you'll
Speaker 2: come out and do a big event. Is it the podcast?
Speaker 2: Is it your beauty work? Is it the flex factory
Speaker 2: and the products? Is it your renovations that you've been doing,
Speaker 2: or you're like diy, you know, paint shobs. Like what
Speaker 2: is lighting you up the most of the moment.
Speaker 3: I'd say, it's every time I can wake up and
Speaker 3: do exactly what I want to because I want to,
Speaker 3: and it is a privilege in itself, and I assumed
Speaker 3: it's a privilege I would have far sooner in my life.
Speaker 3: I know, Hubris, it happens so many times. I Mean,
Speaker 3: when I transition from full time work to freelance, I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna work whenever I want to do whatever I want.
Speaker 3: And then you're like, oh no, like I actually need
Speaker 3: to be generating ideas income all the time. And the
Speaker 3: days where I can just say, oh, I do have
Speaker 3: emails and I have work, but I'm literally gonna get
Speaker 3: in my car and drive to the farm and like
Speaker 3: vibe out, you know, all the day where I'm like,
Speaker 3: you know what I am just gonna make something because
Speaker 3: I want to. I won't even share it because I
Speaker 3: don't have to. And so much about what I am
Speaker 3: learning to value in my life is just remaining really,
Speaker 3: in the most cliche way, true to myself, like really
Speaker 3: identifying what really makes my life worth living. Because I'm
Speaker 3: a duty fulfiller, I will do what I have to
Speaker 3: and what needs to be done over what I want
Speaker 3: to do at any day. But taking back my agency
Speaker 3: is just my favorite thing because it means that I
Speaker 3: haven't lost myself again. It means that I'm still really
Speaker 3: aware of who I want, who I want to be,
Speaker 3: and who I am and the things that will kind
Speaker 3: of make me want to continue living. I can't feel
Speaker 3: like there's a void up to the rest of my life.
Speaker 3: I want to get to the point where I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is all just nus, yeah, and finding ways to
Speaker 3: give myself agencies, just working towards contentment, be like I
Speaker 3: know exactly what is that makes me happy. I know
Speaker 3: exactly what is it makes me feel fulfilled, and sometimes
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: But I also find that a side effect of being
Speaker 2: hyper self aware and constantly open minded to learning and
Speaker 2: growth and analysis of yourself and the way that you
Speaker 2: do things also is kind of really damn exhausting because
Speaker 2: you're having double the amount of thoughts as a normal person.
Speaker 1: You're having your thoughts and then you're thinking about your thoughts.
Speaker 2: And I find that I'm so prone to burn out
Speaker 2: because of the amount of self reflection.
Speaker 1: That I do.
Speaker 2: How do you manage that your energy when you're constantly
Speaker 2: I mean, everyone wants a piece of flex but you
Speaker 2: also are reflecting on all the different ways that you're
Speaker 2: expressing yourself, Like how do you find moments of peace
Speaker 2: and then not physically and emotionally just burn out.
Speaker 3: It's tricky because burnout really is my vocation, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's just what I tell and I do it well.
Speaker 3: And for the longest time, I was really aspiring for
Speaker 3: conventional balance, being able to just do a bit here
Speaker 3: and then not do too much and really manage my energy.
Speaker 3: It's not happening. It's not something that I know how
Speaker 3: to do really well. I naturally do a lot and
Speaker 3: then do nothing, do a lot and then do nothing,
Speaker 3: which was also affirmed by the time that I went
Speaker 3: to go see a celebrity astrologer and she was looking
Speaker 3: at my chart and she was like, yeah, like you're
Speaker 3: so lucky. Yeah, you wi't know how to kill it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm really seeing You're gonna have to really
Speaker 3: be mindful of burnout. That's just something that's gonna I'm like, sis,
Speaker 3: say no more. What I need to be do is
Speaker 3: what I need to be do language it's tricky. What
Speaker 3: I need to do for myself is less about how
Speaker 3: to eradicate burnout and more about how to be more
Speaker 3: aware of when it's coming and what activities I do
Speaker 3: that are burnout inducing. So I know, for me, what
Speaker 3: really pushes me over the edge is when I'm not
Speaker 3: being understood, when I'm doing things out of obligation, when
Speaker 3: people are prioritizing themselves and exploiting me. So that's when
Speaker 3: someone's saying, like, you do this, do thing you don't
Speaker 3: want to do, but it's for a certain amount of money. No,
Speaker 3: like no, because I'm not doing all of this to
Speaker 3: be now tied to an arbitrary system like money. It's
Speaker 3: nice and I'll take it, but also don't use it
Speaker 3: as a tool to guide me like I'm a dog
Speaker 3: on a leash. It's not happening. So if I can
Speaker 3: sort of mitigate the areas of my life that push
Speaker 3: me towards you know, over stimulation, over exhaustion, over outputting.
Speaker 3: Then that's much better and I can kind of get
Speaker 3: to a burnout stage that's easier to manage that I'm
Speaker 3: not manic and you know, fully emotional, feeling anxious and
Speaker 3: super depressed. I'm like, oh, you know what, I just
Speaker 3: need a break and that's fine.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I think if all of us were aware enough to
Speaker 2: list what those sort of depleting activities were, everyone would
Speaker 2: be so much healthier.
Speaker 1: Real.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that I think comes on the
Speaker 2: flot side of that is the last section, which is
Speaker 2: called playta, And that's the part where we strip back
Speaker 2: all the aspects of our identities and just.
Speaker 1: Do what purely brings you joy.
Speaker 2: What's not obligation based, what I think isn't even learning
Speaker 2: or productive outcome based, which is really hard for people
Speaker 2: like May who just like want to win it stuff
Speaker 2: and like get better and like progress what other things?
Speaker 3: Wait, are you an enneagram three as well? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm an aries like it's yeah, we are
Speaker 2: the same. But when we're manically focused on self improvement
Speaker 2: and reflection, and betterment, which means that I will constantly
Speaker 2: be in a place of chronic fatigue unless I make
Speaker 2: time actively and religiously make myself play and do things
Speaker 2: that make me forget what time it is and that
Speaker 2: have no sort of milestones of achievement about it. So
Speaker 2: how do you play? Do you do anything that's just
Speaker 2: for fun?
Speaker 3: I love that you've worded it that way, and quick caveat.
Speaker 3: I was listening to a podcast about an Enneagram three
Speaker 3: and somebody had asked him a similar question, how do
Speaker 3: you just like play? And he was like, Oh, what
Speaker 3: I do is I become the best at being leisurely?
Speaker 3: You know, I exceeded it And I was like, wow,
Speaker 3: you're my person. But that's exactly it. I knew there
Speaker 3: was a time where, you know, I was never going
Speaker 3: to be that person who's just like you know, feel
Speaker 3: when I needed a time to take a break and
Speaker 3: then take it. No, I need to do it with intention.
Speaker 3: And so there are some days where I will just
Speaker 3: watch Netflix for ten hours and watch a season a
Speaker 3: day because I can and I should and I want to.
Speaker 3: And it's finding activities like that that don't that I
Speaker 3: can't justify at all. But I will prioritize, and that is,
Speaker 3: you know, getting another chest of drawers from Facebook marketplace
Speaker 3: and painting them. Do I need more draws? No? Do
Speaker 3: I have more space? No? Am I going out of
Speaker 3: my way to inconvenience myself? Yes? Will it bring me joy? Absolutely?
Speaker 2: I love that you're now getting people to send you
Speaker 2: things they.
Speaker 1: Marketplace that are like out you see it? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know I need it? Then I will take those draws.
Speaker 1: I don't care how much room I have to move
Speaker 1: around in my own house.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it's just I'm outsourcing and optimizing my lifestyle. But yeah,
Speaker 3: just my challenge is, like you said, not not trying
Speaker 3: to like monetize things or attribute like a like a
Speaker 3: value to things in the way that it makes me
Speaker 3: feel good or bad to just do and being creative
Speaker 3: help because I can just paint or make something or
Speaker 3: whatever and it'll take a whole day and that's what
Speaker 3: I need. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I just if you're
Speaker 3: not creative, I don't know how you just find time
Speaker 3: to do things that don't matter, because yeah, like being
Speaker 3: a person is not creative, and then doing creative things
Speaker 3: and not being good at it, that would suck. Because
Speaker 3: there's a reason why I can go and buy a
Speaker 3: chest to draws and paint them because I'm.
Speaker 1: Good at it and you know it'll turn out well.
Speaker 3: Is enjoyable, even if there's no like value attribute to it.
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's fine, and it looks good.
Speaker 1: It does definitely look good.
Speaker 2: So, just to finish up, what are three interesting things
Speaker 2: about you that don't normally come up in conversation? And
Speaker 2: I mean, you have a lot of conversations and I'm
Speaker 2: pretty open about yourself, so it's probably a hard one,
Speaker 2: but I mean I read one that your last meal
Speaker 2: would be a bundless chicken burger with chips and mushroom sauce,
Speaker 2: which really surprises me because we know that you're bland
Speaker 2: now and I'm like, really, mushroom sauce.
Speaker 3: And to think mushroom sauce is one of those things.
Speaker 3: So for context, the rational is hurricanes and I don't
Speaker 3: know if they exist in Melbourne, but they're definitely in Sydney.
Speaker 3: And it's just like a simple steakhouse type vibe, the
Speaker 3: kind of place where you could take a family for
Speaker 3: like a nice ish meal for somebody's birthday, but for
Speaker 3: the average you know, like adult. It's just where you
Speaker 3: go to on like a date night if you wanted to.
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, I went there all as a teenager
Speaker 3: because it's where we used to go. And we're sixteen
Speaker 3: and we want to dress up, go to Darling Harbor
Speaker 3: where heels, and go to a nice restaurant. And I've
Speaker 3: ordered the same thing for years, the bunless Chickenberg, because
Speaker 3: the bun is too big. Also, right, it's not briosh.
Speaker 3: It's a big, crusty, seedy bun. Oh no, that you
Speaker 3: literally can't wrap your mouth around and it just takes up.
Speaker 3: It's not it's not at all. So I remember, like
Speaker 3: all throughout my high high school period, even in adulthood,
Speaker 3: my best friend Grace, I've got two best friends called Grace,
Speaker 3: not to get them confused, but Grace from high school
Speaker 3: would always order mushroom sauce and it's brown. It looks unappetizing,
Speaker 3: and I was like, ill, Grace, Grace whatever. And then
Speaker 3: one day the Picciata tried it and was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I get it. Mushroom sauce is good. So unfortunately, though
Speaker 3: I guess my taste buds have you know, transformed in
Speaker 3: some way. But hurricanes doesn't hit like it used to.
Speaker 3: So I might have to mend my last meal later
Speaker 3: on in my life, but for now, I'll take it.
Speaker 3: The other thing that's quite Let's just say something that
Speaker 3: people would know about me and say, if you look
Speaker 3: at your fingers right, like turn your hands palm side up,
Speaker 3: and if you look at the little creases on your
Speaker 3: individual fingers, right, yeah, how many can you count, like
Speaker 3: defined creases?
Speaker 2: So there's like two at the base, yeah, two at
Speaker 2: the first knuckle, and then one at the next knuckle.
Speaker 3: Mostly show me your put your palm to your thing.
Speaker 3: So let's say, like look at your pinky, right, You've
Speaker 3: got like one at the base and then like that
Speaker 3: sort of like two lines that are connected in the
Speaker 3: middle and the one of the top. So we could
Speaker 3: just say three defined points, right, yeah, yeah, I have four?
Speaker 3: What you've got one? Two, three? Four? And I had this.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was a theory, but when
Speaker 3: I was younger, I used to say that I was
Speaker 3: definitely like an alien princess kidnapped, right, so.
Speaker 1: Nick out of this world unique just you.
Speaker 3: Know, it happens. But I used to say it as
Speaker 3: a joke, but I was just so know that nobody
Speaker 3: would believe me, and like, why is that so out
Speaker 3: of the realm of possibility that I could be an
Speaker 3: alien princess who was set down here to do a
Speaker 3: reconnaissance mission. It's not impossible.
Speaker 2: You could still not have been activated, Like you don't know,
Speaker 2: that's not still going to happen one day.
Speaker 3: But there was a point. I remember I had bought
Speaker 3: this like this really shitty bag from like Ruby Shoes
Speaker 3: or something, and the straps of the bag were connected
Speaker 3: by these like little like clippy hooks, and the clippy
Speaker 3: hooks always used to like separate from the bag, and
Speaker 3: it was just this crazy thing. But one time the
Speaker 3: clippy hook that connected the straps of the bag separated
Speaker 3: and like impaled my finger.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: And so as my friends were kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: helping me, you know, nursing me back to health, you know,
Speaker 3: in the in the food court in high school, somebody
Speaker 3: pointed out that I had extra lines.
Speaker 1: Wait, someone else noticed that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: As because because as we were like digging in and
Speaker 3: everyone was holding my hands and be like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: do you need to get everyone's like why do your
Speaker 3: fingers look so long? Like what's that about? And I
Speaker 3: was like, oh, I don't know, And so we started
Speaker 3: comparing all of our hands and saying, oh shit, I've
Speaker 3: got extra lines but not an extra knuckle. And every
Speaker 3: now and then I'll remember this really special trait and
Speaker 3: I will google it. I'll like go to like parmestree
Speaker 3: dot com and figure out like what what it actually means,
Speaker 3: because some people just have an extra line on one finger, and.
Speaker 2: You have it on majority because you're special and different.
Speaker 3: It's been confirmed, so I feel like it's an identifier
Speaker 3: of sorts. And eventually, when the aliens come down, they
Speaker 3: start to segregate us by value, and because we're all
Speaker 3: gross gremlin humans to them, the equivalent of like germs,
Speaker 3: they're not going to know how to you know, segregate
Speaker 3: us by our skills or our perceived worth. They're going
Speaker 3: to look for physical characteristics. And I'm hoping thing that
Speaker 3: long fingers like theirs will be a point of you know, harmony, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, I also think they'll look at your furniture
Speaker 2: collection and go, yes, she can make all the draws
Speaker 2: in space.
Speaker 3: Can you imagine aliens would think we're just such dummies,
Speaker 3: like this is what you do with your time? Absurd idiot.
Speaker 1: They would look at like Instagram and just be like,
Speaker 1: what is happening here?
Speaker 3: Stupid people? So that's one thing, and that's two things.
Speaker 3: And I would say the third one is, I mean,
Speaker 3: what don't people know about me?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: I would say, I mean maybe they do or don't know.
Speaker 3: So up until maybe like a year ago, going me
Speaker 3: two years, I had this like preoccupation with thinking that
Speaker 3: over emoting was a bad thing. I used to be
Speaker 3: such an emotions police officer. If people around me were
Speaker 3: over emoting, laughing too loudly, crying too much, like doing
Speaker 3: anything too much, I would just get so physically uncomfortable
Speaker 3: and have to feel like I should police that environment.
Speaker 3: Often I didn't, but like off these days, and do
Speaker 3: you know what it is, I've had to like go
Speaker 3: back into like the recesses of my mind because as
Speaker 3: some like, if you look at me, I'm not a
Speaker 3: conservative person, right Like I'm not someone who presents as
Speaker 3: being conservative in any way by like my ideologies, by
Speaker 3: the way I govern myself, whatever. But I definitely have,
Speaker 3: like from just growing up, had it drilled into me
Speaker 3: by my mom to be appropriate and like conducting yourself
Speaker 3: in an appropriate way. Is very important, and because so
Speaker 3: much of my life is unconventional, I am conducting myself
Speaker 3: appropriately for what is expected of my lifestyle right of
Speaker 3: the situation. But when I move into spaces where the
Speaker 3: standard is conventionality and there is like an appropriate way
Speaker 3: to act, I get super power annoid. So if we're
Speaker 3: in public and like my friends are talking too loudly,
Speaker 3: I'm like, hey, sister, can you.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, no, and they just be like, FLA,
Speaker 1: that's amazing.
Speaker 3: It's so sad, but I've been working on it. It's
Speaker 3: definitely something. Or like if I'm in the bank and
Speaker 3: someone is like too loudly, I'm like, oh no no
Speaker 3: no no no no no no no. Or if I'm
Speaker 3: at a bar and somebody is like not understanding that
Speaker 3: you've got to have your money out ready or your
Speaker 3: card and you've got to like decide before your turn,
Speaker 3: Like I freak out. I actually.
Speaker 2: House, Well, that's what I was just about to say.
Speaker 2: I love how particular your examples are as well. You're like,
Speaker 2: so I'm generally like you know X, y Z, but
Speaker 2: then you'll follow up with like the most specific example ever,
Speaker 2: like at a bar when you don't have your credit
Speaker 2: card ready for the person card, and I'm like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I love you.
Speaker 3: Frustrated. That's frustrated. You're like frazzled.
Speaker 1: It's just totally as a fuck.
Speaker 2: So before the very last question, I just have one
Speaker 2: about something that people probably know but some people might
Speaker 2: not know. Where did flex Mammy come from?
Speaker 1: How did you choose that?
Speaker 3: Naw? Yeah, See everybody wants a really like fun story,
Speaker 3: but whoever has a fun story about the way their
Speaker 3: name came to me? Not one single person. No. For me,
Speaker 3: it was because the transition from being a person who
Speaker 3: played music occasionally in a club to being a full
Speaker 3: time DJ pretty much happened over the span of a month.
Speaker 3: It was like when it rained, it poured. The jobs
Speaker 3: were coming left, right and center and back in those
Speaker 3: days meaning like twenty fourteen, perhaps yeah, Instagram was a
Speaker 3: sing but it was definitely a type of person that
Speaker 3: used Instagram, so photographer or like a person who was
Speaker 3: a model or a brand builder, or you might have
Speaker 3: been a normal person who just didn't post. But there
Speaker 3: were definitely like particular ways of like operating. And I
Speaker 3: had an Instagram, but I never posted. I just lurked
Speaker 3: and stuff. So I thought, like an indicator of being right,
Speaker 3: just very I don't know if it's on brand, off brand,
Speaker 3: who knows, we're figuring it out, but I knew that
Speaker 3: like a key component of the a DJ was having
Speaker 3: you know, social media and you know, with specific names
Speaker 3: and stuff. So I remember being in a like a
Speaker 3: round table with the friends that I ran that club
Speaker 3: night with, and I was like, Fuck, I need a
Speaker 3: DJ name. Can we just quickly do a little like
Speaker 3: a little hour of power. Let's just get one so
Speaker 3: we can quickly get the Instagram and get the Facebook.
Speaker 3: And at that time, flex was a like I don't know,
Speaker 3: like a colloquial term use like lit and sleek and.
Speaker 1: Whatever else mad flex bra.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it was a thing. And so I
Speaker 3: was like, I want to use flex because I feel
Speaker 3: like that, like the connotation's good, it's easy to spell,
Speaker 3: it's snetic, like it's so easy. But naturally, flex is
Speaker 3: so intertwined with the fitness industry and like the chiropractical industry,
Speaker 3: and like the muscleman industry, so naturally all of the
Speaker 3: handles were taken. I'm pretty sure there was a DJ
Speaker 3: flex already.
Speaker 1: Ah yeah, probably.
Speaker 3: So the roundtable then transitioned into Okay, we need like
Speaker 3: a prefix or a suffix to like make it yours.
Speaker 3: So like, you know, what about like little flex your
Speaker 3: name is Lilian Flex. And I was like, it feels
Speaker 3: like a bit of a parody. It could be like
Speaker 3: on the nose a bit. Yeah, so we're like, you know,
Speaker 3: it could be. And I was like, I just want
Speaker 3: something that like is very simple that eventually, if I
Speaker 3: don't need to use it, I can just take it off,
Speaker 3: so like a baby or like a And it was
Speaker 3: at the time everyone was called like young something you know,
Speaker 3: or like you know, So I was like, what about
Speaker 3: like a baby or like a mar And someone's like,
Speaker 3: what about mammy? And I was like, fuck, yeah, let's
Speaker 3: just do that.
Speaker 1: It was so random.
Speaker 3: We go onto Instagram to get flex Mammy the handle
Speaker 3: and it's taken how but at this point we had
Speaker 3: already committed to flex Mammy, like we had done the
Speaker 3: round table, had gotten everyone's thinking for too much time
Speaker 3: at this point that we just had to stick with it.
Speaker 3: And we went on this guy's page, like this black guy.
Speaker 3: I don't know where he's from, no buyer, He's on
Speaker 3: private and he has like a thousands a thousand followers.
Speaker 3: Now my boyfriend checked the other day to make fun
Speaker 3: of it, but back then he probably had one hundred
Speaker 3: and something followers. I was like, do I ask him?
Speaker 3: Because I remember somebody had bought Kanye West dot com
Speaker 3: like his domain, and he ended up paying them a
Speaker 3: significant amount of money to get the domain back. So
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't want to be extorted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, but you need that name, but
Speaker 1: I need the name. This is my name now.
Speaker 3: So I just decided to be Flex dot Marmy on
Speaker 3: Instagram and took the rest of the handles and everything else,
Speaker 3: and then that's it. Amazing, But it was purely it
Speaker 3: was It was a manufacturer name. It wasn't never like
Speaker 3: a nickname, wasn't anything. It was manufactured for the purpose
Speaker 3: of needing to be perceived as a brand. And if
Speaker 3: I knew it was going to stick and be a thing,
Speaker 3: then I would have considered it differently.
Speaker 1: But then it might not have come out.
Speaker 3: So well, yeah, who knows. But now it's just Flex.
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody just calls me Flex. The mummy is
Speaker 3: like a full government name, like it's so formal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it's like that is my full name
Speaker 2: when you're in trouble flex mummy.
Speaker 3: Who would have thought Nat?
Speaker 2: Yeah? But you know what, I kind of think that
Speaker 2: if you had labored over it too much and known
Speaker 2: how far it would go, you might not have ever
Speaker 2: decided on something. Of course, I love that you were
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, that'll do it. And now it's like
Speaker 2: freaking amazing.
Speaker 3: I mean, one day I'll retransition back into Lillian when
Speaker 3: it serves me and suits my life spam, but for now,
Speaker 3: this will do.
Speaker 2: It's also such a beautiful, delicate name, Lilian. It is
Speaker 2: like flex is like so strong and like really powerful word,
Speaker 2: and then Lilian's like.
Speaker 1: It's just so like such a contrast.
Speaker 2: And very last question, since I love quote so much,
Speaker 2: what's your favorite quote?
Speaker 3: Ooh wow? Quote?
Speaker 1: Big question? I know.
Speaker 3: Can I quote myself?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Can? That would make it even better.
Speaker 3: I've been saying for years, and I'm pretty sure it's
Speaker 3: saying that my mum would have said in one of
Speaker 3: her amazing you know sermons to me. But it's simply
Speaker 3: if you know better, you do better. And it's too
Speaker 3: promped because on the first hand, it asks you to
Speaker 3: kind of be a little bit more forgiving and forthcoming,
Speaker 3: forgiving and sort of empathetic people who don't know and
Speaker 3: therefore don't do or act in the way that you
Speaker 3: deem to be appropriate or good. So when you come
Speaker 3: across somebody who's just a little bit ignorant, and you're like,
Speaker 3: if you know, if you knew better, you probably would
Speaker 3: behave in a different way, you know, So let me
Speaker 3: hold some sort of like empathetic space for you. I try.
Speaker 3: And then the second prong of that is, in order
Speaker 3: to ever get to a point of evolving into a
Speaker 3: better version of yourself, you have to learn and educate
Speaker 3: and explore. You just don't get to that point without
Speaker 3: having to do the groundwork. And I feel as though
Speaker 3: a lot of us assume we're just going to land
Speaker 3: and arrive into actualization and it's not happening. So we
Speaker 3: have to increase what we know to improve the quality
Speaker 3: of what we do.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's such a good one. And this
Speaker 2: is like a weird admittle admittle admission of awards are hard, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's a weird admission of how creepy I get
Speaker 2: in my research. But I have another quote from your
Speaker 2: mum that I also think is wonderful. Yeah, never do
Speaker 2: a job fifty percent of the way as if someone
Speaker 2: was going to come and finish the rest.
Speaker 3: Yeap.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: She drilled that into me and it took me so
Speaker 3: long to understand. And for context. My mom single mom,
Speaker 3: and she raised three kids right, and she was always
Speaker 3: really good at giving us context for our experience, like
Speaker 3: the reason why you can't have that nintenne ds because
Speaker 3: I can't afford it. This is how much I make
Speaker 3: an hour. It cost this much to rent our home.
Speaker 3: Your school fees are this much. Therefore I can't afford it.
Speaker 3: So And it was interesting though, because sometimes she would
Speaker 3: just ask us to do things without context, and we
Speaker 3: just struggled with the reasoning behind it. So every now
Speaker 3: and then I'd be in my family home and I
Speaker 3: hadn't lived there since I was at twenty, but she
Speaker 3: would ask me, It called me and be like, hey,
Speaker 3: can you take the frozen chook out of the freezer
Speaker 3: so it can thaw? Or can you take the clothes
Speaker 3: off the line or something right, And in my literal mind,
Speaker 3: sometimes I forget, or sometimes I would just do what
Speaker 3: she asked and not finish it. So I would take
Speaker 3: the clothes off the line, but not fold them, not
Speaker 3: give people their clothes, And then it just makes more
Speaker 3: work for everyone because now she's just used to energy
Speaker 3: to tell me what I did wrong, why I need
Speaker 3: to fix it. I'm defensive now I'm feel attacked, and
Speaker 3: all these things happened when it could have been so
Speaker 3: easy and so simple. And so I remember one day
Speaker 3: she just kind of like blew up and she was like,
Speaker 3: the reason why I tell you that you need to
Speaker 3: do things the full way is because not because one
Speaker 3: day they won't be someone to magically help you, but
Speaker 3: because it's a reflection of of how you navigate the world. Like,
Speaker 3: understand the privilege it is to have access to do shit.
Speaker 3: Understand how easy a life can be when you take
Speaker 3: full control of the outcome of what you're doing. If
Speaker 3: you're constantly waiting for so and so to come through
Speaker 3: and fix it and help you, then you're gonna feel
Speaker 3: like you have no agency to do anything. So like,
Speaker 3: and this is why I always get so frush ated
Speaker 3: when somebody is like, hey, flex, how do I start
Speaker 3: a podcast? It's like, is this fifty percent of the
Speaker 3: work you think is going to happen? Because I promise
Speaker 3: you there's like six more line items that need to
Speaker 3: be ticked off. Honestly changes It changes your worldview when
Speaker 3: you're like, okay, in how many ways do I wait
Speaker 3: for somebody to come and finish the job? You know,
Speaker 3: like when you don't tell your partner fully what you
Speaker 3: expected them because you just think that they're going to
Speaker 3: connect the dots themselves, Or when you don't fully express
Speaker 3: how you feel to someone and I see they're going
Speaker 3: to figure it out. Or when you you know, when
Speaker 3: you go into a hairdresser and you're like I just
Speaker 3: want highlights and like what kind of like, oh, don't
Speaker 3: want I trust you? These are all ways you make
Speaker 3: your life so much more difficult. Just finish the job,
Speaker 3: finish the sentence, finish the thought, like, do it all
Speaker 3: in full and at least you can be so much
Speaker 3: more responsible for the outcome. But that one, it took
Speaker 3: me so long to figure it out, Like what do
Speaker 3: you mean I'm not doing things half done?
Speaker 1: I took it, take it out.
Speaker 3: She's don't you know what happened with the chicken? Aren't
Speaker 3: I going to make stew with it? Why couldn't you
Speaker 3: cut it? Why couldn't you start cutting the onion. Why
Speaker 3: couldn't you?
Speaker 2: And that's like, ah man, oh my god, that's like
Speaker 2: about my favorite.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like literally the four hundred seventy second nugget of
Speaker 2: wisdom I have just taken from you today. Flex, you
Speaker 2: are extraordinary one and a billion and so so grateful
Speaker 2: for this chat and every chat that you have ever.
Speaker 1: I look up to you so much and I am
Speaker 1: so so grateful for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you. This is so fun. I love it. I know,
Speaker 3: so much fun.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, I literally went like half
Speaker 2: an hour over. I'm so sorry, but it was just
Speaker 2: so easy, so much fun.
Speaker 3: When the content's good, the content's good. Can't help it, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean I can't constrain flex Mammy's content. Like, if
Speaker 2: it's gonna come out, it's gonna come out. She's a performer.
Speaker 2: What can I say? Three? Okay, So, firstly, especially while
Speaker 2: we're still in isolation to varying degrees, everyone go and
Speaker 2: buy yourself Reflex the game. It is such an incredibly
Speaker 2: powerful and fun self development tool. Is flex slash Lil
Speaker 2: not one of the most fascinating people to listen to.
Speaker 2: I could chat to her about our ponderings on life
Speaker 2: for days on end, and I.
Speaker 1: Very nearly did in this one.
Speaker 2: As always, I know she would love to hear. If
Speaker 2: any of you had any revelations or takeaways from this chat,
Speaker 2: please screenshot while you listen and share those, tagging at
Speaker 2: Flex dot Marmyan myself if you enjoyed. If you want
Speaker 2: more from Flex, remember she also has her own podcast,
Speaker 2: among many other things. Just head to her page for
Speaker 2: all the info. Hope you're having an amazing week and
Speaker 2: are seizing your yeay