WEBVTT - EXTRA: How Sally Hepworth Survived Her Divorce 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:12.953 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:14.394 --> 0:00:18.593 Hello, it's Kateline Brooke here. You already know Sally Hepworth. 0:00:18.874 --> 0:00:21.553 You know her and you love her as the best 0:00:21.553 --> 0:00:25.674 selling author on the Unleash Couch. She has that Louis 0:00:25.674 --> 0:00:31.474 Thurroux type curiosity, very funny and sharp observations and brutally 0:00:31.594 --> 0:00:35.434 honest advice to the others. But what else do you 0:00:35.513 --> 0:00:38.834 know about her? Well? I was lucky enough to sit 0:00:38.914 --> 0:00:41.754 down with Sally Hepworth recently on my show No Filter, 0:00:42.473 --> 0:00:47.153 and it was just amazing, a conversation that was so 0:00:47.473 --> 0:00:53.633 layered and compelling and honest and peppered with humor. Anyway, 0:00:53.754 --> 0:00:57.314 it was so good. We had quite a response. She's 0:00:57.354 --> 0:01:00.393 funny and sharp and so completely Sally, and I think 0:01:00.434 --> 0:01:03.994 you're going to love it. So here's Sally Hepworth as 0:01:04.074 --> 0:01:09.354 you know her, but much deeper and maybe even more herself. 0:01:10.314 --> 0:01:12.394 I have the scars and I do feel like I 0:01:12.434 --> 0:01:17.114 lost a layer of skin. You know, everything was raw, 0:01:17.434 --> 0:01:21.914 everything I felt things is more beautiful and sadder. You know, 0:01:22.034 --> 0:01:26.074 is marriage good for women? I've thought about that a lot. 0:01:34.474 --> 0:01:38.994 You know, when someone seems like they've got it all together, hmmm, 0:01:39.354 --> 0:01:44.434 For instance, best selling author, gorgeous, family, thriving career, beautiful 0:01:44.474 --> 0:01:49.034 to boot and then you find out they've been quietly 0:01:49.154 --> 0:01:54.794 rebuilding their life from scratch. Well that is Sally Hepworth. 0:01:55.714 --> 0:01:58.354 She sold millions of books around the world. She's written 0:01:58.354 --> 0:02:02.834 a best seller every year since twenty fifteen. But what 0:02:02.874 --> 0:02:05.874 you might not know is that over the last couple 0:02:05.914 --> 0:02:12.474 of years, Sally Hepworth's life completely imploded. Today we talk 0:02:12.514 --> 0:02:17.714 about that divorce, grief, the shit box. Yes you'll find 0:02:17.754 --> 0:02:21.953 out what that is. We talk about female friendship and 0:02:22.474 --> 0:02:27.514 falling in love again when you swore you wouldn't. This 0:02:27.594 --> 0:02:30.154 is a conversation about what it means to let go 0:02:30.274 --> 0:02:33.914 of the life you thought you wanted and build a 0:02:33.994 --> 0:02:39.754 new life that actually fits. Sally Hepworth. You of the 0:02:39.834 --> 0:02:44.074 lemon water, the cleansing lemon water. Welcome to No Filter. 0:02:44.434 --> 0:02:47.914 Thank you. And here we are both early in the morning. 0:02:48.154 --> 0:02:51.314 After thinking that it was ten am instead of nine. 0:02:51.474 --> 0:02:54.114 Both of us thought that what a miracle that we made. 0:02:54.314 --> 0:02:58.394 And here we are. But what Okay, you have shared 0:02:58.754 --> 0:03:04.834 so much of yourself, but kind of in disguise, I 0:03:04.914 --> 0:03:10.674 think through your car directors, yeah, which have resonated with 0:03:11.794 --> 0:03:17.194 millions literally millions of people, and you have had this 0:03:17.394 --> 0:03:20.834 is so remarkable a best seller every year since twenty fifteen. 0:03:20.914 --> 0:03:23.554 So that's a lot. It's a lot. 0:03:24.474 --> 0:03:27.314 Yeah, it sounds like a lot when it's going to 0:03:27.354 --> 0:03:29.914 be the tenth this year. In a couple of months, 0:03:31.074 --> 0:03:35.314 my book will be care right, And yeah it does. 0:03:35.514 --> 0:03:39.394 It feels amazing to think back to when I started 0:03:39.674 --> 0:03:42.434 writing in two thousand and nine, when I was pregnant. 0:03:42.034 --> 0:03:43.474 With my first child. Yeah. 0:03:43.514 --> 0:03:46.594 All I wanted was to get a novel published. Yes, 0:03:46.794 --> 0:03:50.554 and then oh that's a dream. Yeah, and then the 0:03:50.554 --> 0:03:52.354 gold post kept moving. Then I wanted to make a 0:03:52.434 --> 0:03:54.994 career out of being an author, and then I wanted 0:03:55.034 --> 0:03:56.994 to become a best seller. You know, some people say 0:03:57.034 --> 0:03:59.634 they didn't dream of that, but I did. I had 0:04:00.034 --> 0:04:00.714 big dreams. 0:04:00.994 --> 0:04:04.314 And when like, how long had you had those dreams? 0:04:04.834 --> 0:04:08.754 Well, I suppose as soon as I got my foot 0:04:08.754 --> 0:04:10.714 in the door and I started to get published, you 0:04:10.714 --> 0:04:12.834 know what might not dream big. I mean, I didn't 0:04:13.074 --> 0:04:14.954 know that I was going to make it, but you 0:04:15.034 --> 0:04:16.474 have to kind of aim for something. 0:04:16.634 --> 0:04:18.954 I do always. I do like to say to friends, 0:04:19.674 --> 0:04:24.034 miracles happen. There's no reason that it can't be. The 0:04:24.073 --> 0:04:29.833 miracle for you. But the miracle is often hard work. Yeah, 0:04:29.993 --> 0:04:31.153 that's the miracle. 0:04:31.513 --> 0:04:34.714 Yeah, And I guess to write a novel, you're doing 0:04:34.753 --> 0:04:37.313 the hard work, right like everyone who's written one. To 0:04:37.354 --> 0:04:39.433 get in the game, you have to do the hard work. 0:04:39.753 --> 0:04:41.873 And then there's the magic of you know, are your 0:04:41.873 --> 0:04:44.073 books going to resonate? Are people going to buy them? 0:04:44.474 --> 0:04:47.034 Are they going to in some cases hit at the 0:04:47.073 --> 0:04:51.354 right time that that's going to become popular. Sometimes that 0:04:51.393 --> 0:04:54.474 retroactively happens these days, and books take off years after 0:04:54.513 --> 0:04:58.713 they've come out. I don't know why, but I really 0:04:58.753 --> 0:05:03.674 do feel so fortunate to be while also allowing that, 0:05:03.753 --> 0:05:05.753 you know, I've done the work and I do think 0:05:05.873 --> 0:05:08.753 that I past imposter syndrome. 0:05:08.753 --> 0:05:11.193 I think I'm good at it now. I really enjoy it. 0:05:11.274 --> 0:05:14.953 Oh what a good feeling. Yeah. When did that come? 0:05:15.513 --> 0:05:21.594 Was it as a result of outside affirmation or is 0:05:21.633 --> 0:05:23.674 it something that comes from inside? 0:05:23.953 --> 0:05:24.714 Great question. 0:05:26.274 --> 0:05:29.714 I suspect probably started to come after a little bit 0:05:29.714 --> 0:05:30.753 of outside affirmation. 0:05:31.154 --> 0:05:31.873 That does help. 0:05:32.073 --> 0:05:34.113 Yeah, I would like to say it was internal. 0:05:34.193 --> 0:05:36.753 I think by the time I wrote my fifth book, 0:05:36.794 --> 0:05:38.474 I remember that was The Mother in Law. 0:05:38.594 --> 0:05:39.674 Was the book that I kind of. 0:05:41.154 --> 0:05:44.234 You know, broke out as they say, and then each 0:05:44.234 --> 0:05:46.954 book since then has kind of built on it. And 0:05:46.993 --> 0:05:51.513 sometime between then and now, I just started to think 0:05:51.873 --> 0:05:55.073 to myself, when you know, I've written a couple of 0:05:55.073 --> 0:05:58.873 short stories recently, and I've never written a short story. 0:05:58.914 --> 0:06:01.034 I mean before I wrote the first one, and I 0:06:01.073 --> 0:06:06.034 remember Amazon approaching me to write it, and I said, yeah, okay, 0:06:06.113 --> 0:06:06.514 I'll do it. 0:06:06.553 --> 0:06:08.593 And then I hung and I immediately. 0:06:08.154 --> 0:06:11.234 Googled how to write a short story because I thought, yeah, 0:06:11.234 --> 0:06:12.794 I can do it. Well, of course I can do it, 0:06:13.113 --> 0:06:16.193 and that snuck up on me because I didn't always 0:06:16.234 --> 0:06:16.873 feel that way. 0:06:16.914 --> 0:06:19.993 Of course, the mother in Law was a really interesting 0:06:20.034 --> 0:06:24.034 one because it showed that you have a capacity which 0:06:24.034 --> 0:06:26.633 I think you always have to do as a writer. 0:06:27.993 --> 0:06:33.154 It showed you have a real capacity to see the 0:06:33.193 --> 0:06:36.794 other side of someone, and you do that with all 0:06:36.834 --> 0:06:40.674 of your characters obviously, but that was a really seminal 0:06:40.714 --> 0:06:45.833 one because I think it's so hot, Yeah, isn't it? Sticky? 0:06:45.953 --> 0:06:49.674 A mother in law? And yet you always were you're 0:06:49.873 --> 0:06:54.314 handling of the concept, and even in your conversations around it, 0:06:54.794 --> 0:06:58.234 were very understanding of what it means to be a 0:06:58.274 --> 0:06:58.993 mother in law. 0:06:59.553 --> 0:07:02.553 I hope, so That's always been the interesting part of 0:07:02.594 --> 0:07:07.873 writing for me is there are books, I assume that 0:07:07.953 --> 0:07:12.074 have been written about awful mothers in law, and movies 0:07:12.114 --> 0:07:16.274 and monsters in law and jokes and jokes, and so 0:07:16.474 --> 0:07:18.794 what was interesting to me about tackling it was to, 0:07:19.874 --> 0:07:23.033 you know, to reverse engineer or to look at the 0:07:23.034 --> 0:07:26.834 other side and what if you know mothers in law 0:07:26.874 --> 0:07:29.274 aren't awful, because they're not. I mean, my mum is 0:07:29.314 --> 0:07:32.194 a mother in law and she's beautiful. I adore her. 0:07:32.634 --> 0:07:37.234 I also know that she irritates my sisters a lot sometimes. Well, yes, 0:07:37.393 --> 0:07:41.593 there's always that that kind of tension, there's that rab 0:07:41.834 --> 0:07:44.754 A point that you've made is that a mother in 0:07:44.834 --> 0:07:48.434 law is in a unique position because she loves the 0:07:48.474 --> 0:07:54.194 same man more woman, daughter or son, but has no 0:07:54.354 --> 0:07:57.714 say in it. The people that are trust together. But 0:07:57.874 --> 0:08:01.713 I'm curious, particularly about your understanding of human nature, which 0:08:01.754 --> 0:08:07.434 I believe to be immense well just partly through your 0:08:07.514 --> 0:08:12.714 research on every character and situation, and you have had 0:08:13.874 --> 0:08:21.274 your characters often have confronted every type of rupture you know. 0:08:21.554 --> 0:08:25.314 And now this is what I'm curious about, because you've 0:08:25.434 --> 0:08:29.914 encountered that own rupture yourself, and you've changed your life 0:08:29.953 --> 0:08:33.394 drastically since the last time you were on no filter 0:08:33.434 --> 0:08:36.994 with me the last two times year on. How has 0:08:37.114 --> 0:08:39.353 that been You're now divorced. 0:08:39.954 --> 0:08:43.834 Yeah, I mean, look, all of these experiences, they become 0:08:43.874 --> 0:08:46.834 a part of you, and so they leak out onto 0:08:46.874 --> 0:08:51.514 the page, I think. But I will say that every 0:08:51.914 --> 0:08:53.994 my books in a way have followed the trajectory of 0:08:53.994 --> 0:08:58.354 things that I've gone through, motherhood, you know, even not 0:08:58.434 --> 0:09:00.754 being able to get pregnant and all of those things. 0:09:00.794 --> 0:09:04.514 And now with the divorce, I think that's been the 0:09:04.554 --> 0:09:09.074 most significant thing that's happened to me. I mean, and 0:09:09.114 --> 0:09:12.274 I say this acknowledging that this makes me very lucky, 0:09:12.274 --> 0:09:15.354 but it's the most significant thing that's happened to me 0:09:15.394 --> 0:09:16.354 in my life. 0:09:16.114 --> 0:09:17.234 The most difficult thing. 0:09:17.674 --> 0:09:21.394 Yeah, and it's just coming up to two years ago. 0:09:21.954 --> 0:09:24.714 Oh sorry, it's just gone over two years since we separated. 0:09:25.314 --> 0:09:28.714 And I was thinking about it, knowing that we were 0:09:28.714 --> 0:09:30.514 going to talk about it today, and I was thinking, 0:09:31.434 --> 0:09:33.274 am I, How am. 0:09:33.234 --> 0:09:33.914 I about that? 0:09:33.994 --> 0:09:34.114 Like? 0:09:34.314 --> 0:09:37.474 Am I over it? Am I? 0:09:37.514 --> 0:09:38.034 And I'm not. 0:09:38.634 --> 0:09:42.074 I mean, it's I wonder if it'll be one of 0:09:42.074 --> 0:09:46.434 those things like the grief of death, that it changes, 0:09:47.434 --> 0:09:51.234 but it's always with you. Yeah, I wonder. I mean, 0:09:52.194 --> 0:09:54.274 I don't know. And as you say, I'm so curious 0:09:54.314 --> 0:09:58.954 about people. I'm curious about you know, the last two 0:09:59.034 --> 0:10:01.754 years marriage, you know, I've been looking around at marriages 0:10:01.794 --> 0:10:05.994 and thinking what makes a marriage work, what makes them fail, 0:10:06.234 --> 0:10:09.354 what makes people so angry after they get divorced, what 0:10:09.514 --> 0:10:11.594 makes people nasty? 0:10:11.954 --> 0:10:14.754 What makes a good divorce? 0:10:15.154 --> 0:10:18.154 And how is your divorce? By the way, look a 0:10:18.194 --> 0:10:20.754 little bit of everything, I guess along the way, but 0:10:21.394 --> 0:10:24.514 if overall, yeah, look what you know. 0:10:24.594 --> 0:10:28.634 The thing that I have learned from this is that 0:10:29.594 --> 0:10:32.874 whenever someone would get divorced in my life, prior to 0:10:33.354 --> 0:10:36.834 it being me, I used to want to know what happened. 0:10:37.234 --> 0:10:41.234 And when I asked that question, I expected the answer 0:10:41.314 --> 0:10:46.914 to be a sentence or two sentences, and something that 0:10:46.994 --> 0:10:48.353 attributed blame. 0:10:48.154 --> 0:10:50.754 To one person. There was a victim and a perpetrator. 0:10:51.074 --> 0:10:51.314 You know. 0:10:51.594 --> 0:10:55.114 I wanted to hear he had an affair or she 0:10:55.994 --> 0:10:59.114 was crazy, which can't yes, and so you immediately know 0:10:59.234 --> 0:11:03.114 that's what happened. And what I've discovered since then, and 0:11:03.154 --> 0:11:05.674 in my own case this is true. I mean, you 0:11:05.754 --> 0:11:08.554 might be able to, for the sake of conversation, boil 0:11:08.594 --> 0:11:11.954 it down to one or two things. But ultimately you 0:11:11.954 --> 0:11:14.794 could write a book. It's not one or two sentences. 0:11:15.274 --> 0:11:17.434 You could write a book, and maybe I will. 0:11:18.074 --> 0:11:21.434 Well, it is. It is fascinating, and because it's such 0:11:21.434 --> 0:11:26.994 a common experience and for it to be so traumatic, yes, 0:11:28.114 --> 0:11:34.074 and so common and yet not really, I don't think 0:11:34.074 --> 0:11:39.234 it's really given the full weight that it deserves, the 0:11:39.314 --> 0:11:42.234 significance in a person's life. 0:11:42.674 --> 0:11:46.434 I agree strongly, and in fact, look, I don't know 0:11:47.114 --> 0:11:49.754 if my experience is true of everyone, and of course 0:11:49.794 --> 0:11:50.074 it's not. 0:11:50.194 --> 0:11:52.674 Everyone has a different experiences. 0:11:52.754 --> 0:11:53.714 But I was so. 0:11:55.434 --> 0:11:57.274 Knocked to my ass from it, and. 0:12:00.394 --> 0:12:03.074 Even myself, if I heard someone was divorced before it 0:12:03.074 --> 0:12:04.914 happened to me, I would have said, oh, that's a shame. 0:12:05.314 --> 0:12:07.954 It certainly wasn't par with. 0:12:08.074 --> 0:12:10.154 You know, other terrible things that happen to people, like 0:12:10.194 --> 0:12:11.914 a disease, like an that's. 0:12:11.754 --> 0:12:14.834 A terrible thing. And it is kind of a death. Yeah, 0:12:15.274 --> 0:12:18.194 it's a death of I mean all those things that 0:12:18.314 --> 0:12:20.754 lead you to get married in the first place. Yes, 0:12:21.074 --> 0:12:25.154 the hope, the love, the starry eyed whatever it was. 0:12:25.634 --> 0:12:29.434 It's the antithesis of that. So it is in some ways. 0:12:29.114 --> 0:12:32.314 That it is and on top of all that, I mean, 0:12:32.394 --> 0:12:34.114 that is the big part. And then on top of that, 0:12:34.114 --> 0:12:39.474 there's the life up people. You know that there's worries 0:12:39.514 --> 0:12:44.074 about financial worries, there's emotional concerns for the children. 0:12:43.794 --> 0:12:47.714 Children, there's you know, I mean that. 0:12:47.634 --> 0:12:51.154 Part is so hard that you're going through something so difficult, 0:12:51.194 --> 0:12:53.034 and yet you have to do the best parenting of 0:12:53.074 --> 0:12:58.674 your life, you know, in order to hopefully get your children. 0:12:58.994 --> 0:13:01.234 Well, how do you do that? Because like, you've got 0:13:01.274 --> 0:13:04.594 three children, You've got two teenagers and an eight year old, 0:13:04.634 --> 0:13:08.394 I do I mean, I like to say that children 0:13:08.514 --> 0:13:12.354 are resilient. I think that underestimates often the impact of 0:13:12.514 --> 0:13:16.194 major emotional shifts for children. I think we like to 0:13:16.194 --> 0:13:18.754 say they're resilient because it makes it easier for us 0:13:18.874 --> 0:13:21.234 to kind of push through what we have to push 0:13:21.274 --> 0:13:24.234 through with. I don't even think that they're resilient. What 0:13:24.274 --> 0:13:28.394 they are is adaptable and good at hiding stuff that 0:13:28.474 --> 0:13:32.314 they might be feeling because they're all antenna yes. 0:13:32.394 --> 0:13:33.634 Or showing it in different way. 0:13:33.674 --> 0:13:36.914 I mean, my daughter, my youngest was six at the time, 0:13:36.994 --> 0:13:39.834 and so I saw her dealing with it in ways 0:13:39.874 --> 0:13:43.714 that were not you know, she wasn't expressing it directly, 0:13:43.874 --> 0:13:46.754 but she was having a lot of trouble with you know, 0:13:46.914 --> 0:13:51.874 nightmares and you know, just behavioral stuff, whereas my older 0:13:51.914 --> 0:13:54.234 too and have my older too when you're a divergent 0:13:54.434 --> 0:13:58.554 and so that had its own host of things. 0:13:59.194 --> 0:14:03.474 Did they process it differently? Yeah? Yeah, how could you like? 0:14:03.514 --> 0:14:04.154 In what way? 0:14:04.354 --> 0:14:06.154 Well, even between the two of them, my son and 0:14:06.194 --> 0:14:09.514 my daughter, they prosed it, sessed it differently. My son 0:14:10.354 --> 0:14:13.234 didn't talk about it at all. In fact, it's funny 0:14:13.274 --> 0:14:17.474 when we told him, we said, have you got any questions? 0:14:17.474 --> 0:14:19.194 And he we told him alone, just because of the 0:14:19.194 --> 0:14:23.394 world that we told the girls separately, and we went 0:14:23.434 --> 0:14:25.634 through it and he said, if you got any questions, 0:14:25.674 --> 0:14:27.874 and he said, where will the dog be living? 0:14:28.194 --> 0:14:33.514 Actually a very good question, yes, and so where does 0:14:33.554 --> 0:14:34.354 the dog we live? 0:14:34.834 --> 0:14:37.314 We have a divorced dog who shared We share custody, 0:14:37.354 --> 0:14:39.554 so the dog goes with the kids, which was something 0:14:39.594 --> 0:14:44.554 that they wanted and it has worked really well. The 0:14:44.594 --> 0:14:46.874 other thing that worked well in the early days is 0:14:46.914 --> 0:14:49.234 that we did birds nest parenting. 0:14:50.394 --> 0:14:53.794 The Swedish is that the Swedish model Danish something. 0:14:54.274 --> 0:15:02.274 Everything good comes from. Okay, So because we had the 0:15:02.274 --> 0:15:04.114 family home, as a lot of people do. It was 0:15:04.154 --> 0:15:07.274 going to take time to sell. So we got a 0:15:07.274 --> 0:15:10.114 a little apartment not far away, and we would do 0:15:10.194 --> 0:15:12.914 week on and week off. One of us would would 0:15:12.994 --> 0:15:15.794 leave and go to the apartment and the other one 0:15:15.914 --> 0:15:16.554 would stay in the. 0:15:16.514 --> 0:15:18.754 House with So the idea is that children are not 0:15:18.954 --> 0:15:19.794 they stay routed. 0:15:20.154 --> 0:15:23.754 Yeah, right, and that you know, looking back, that was 0:15:24.274 --> 0:15:27.914 horrible for us or horrible for me. It was amazing 0:15:27.914 --> 0:15:30.074 for the kids. And I would do it again for 0:15:30.154 --> 0:15:32.314 the kids. And what why was that horrible for you? 0:15:32.994 --> 0:15:39.994 Like just the the packing up of your life every. 0:15:38.834 --> 0:15:42.514 Friday, which is normally what the kids have to do. Yes, 0:15:42.554 --> 0:15:43.834 And that's what I was going to say. 0:15:43.834 --> 0:15:47.834 It really gave me such and that's one of the 0:15:47.874 --> 0:15:50.194 best things from it, such an understanding of what they 0:15:50.274 --> 0:15:52.514 have to go through, and we delayed that by a 0:15:52.594 --> 0:15:53.594 year by by. 0:15:53.674 --> 0:15:54.834 Us doing it. 0:15:54.834 --> 0:15:57.834 It's made me so much more sympathetic, so much more 0:15:57.994 --> 0:16:01.354 likely to you know, if they've forgotten their something. 0:16:01.154 --> 0:16:03.274 I will be in the car, you know, driving it 0:16:03.314 --> 0:16:06.314 off to school, which you know how it feels. Yeah, Hey, 0:16:06.354 --> 0:16:09.914 who was it for? Do you think in that nesting 0:16:09.994 --> 0:16:14.514 bird nesting time? Who was more adaptable with that? Obviously 0:16:14.554 --> 0:16:17.754 it was hard for you, how is Christian your husband 0:16:17.754 --> 0:16:18.114 with it? 0:16:18.234 --> 0:16:22.194 I also also I think not great. 0:16:22.594 --> 0:16:24.794 It's a strange thing as well because the apartment that 0:16:24.834 --> 0:16:26.714 we had was very much like an airbn but it 0:16:26.714 --> 0:16:27.754 didn't feel like home. 0:16:27.954 --> 0:16:31.914 No, and because it didn't really belong to either of you. No. Yes. 0:16:32.074 --> 0:16:34.874 And it's also I have to say, it's a privilege 0:16:34.874 --> 0:16:37.074 to be able to afford to have an it was 0:16:37.074 --> 0:16:39.714 a small apartment, but not everyone has the ability to know. 0:16:39.794 --> 0:16:42.634 That's right to do that. The other thing about divorce 0:16:42.714 --> 0:16:44.194 divorce is expensive. 0:16:43.834 --> 0:16:47.514 Is expensive, and there's an uncertain period which is just 0:16:47.634 --> 0:16:54.034 really difficult, and sharing space with that person is so difficult. 0:16:54.794 --> 0:16:57.394 And I found that really really hard. 0:16:57.954 --> 0:17:00.994 It's almost like in a way that when you're navigating 0:17:01.034 --> 0:17:04.553 the divorce with someone and there are children involved, so 0:17:04.954 --> 0:17:08.434 you have to be very mind full of that that 0:17:08.554 --> 0:17:13.434 in a way you have to work together so intensely. 0:17:14.194 --> 0:17:16.114 Do you at some point think why are we getting 0:17:16.114 --> 0:17:19.474 divorced if we can actually manage a divorce? 0:17:21.034 --> 0:17:25.074 Look, I think the thing that happened with us, which 0:17:25.114 --> 0:17:28.234 I see happening with so many people, is that you 0:17:28.354 --> 0:17:33.793 start I started off with a desire to do everything perfectly. 0:17:33.914 --> 0:17:36.033 You know, this thing of Okay, this our life's going 0:17:36.074 --> 0:17:38.634 to change. The children's life is going to change. I 0:17:38.674 --> 0:17:43.674 read all the books you know on children, and I 0:17:43.754 --> 0:17:48.314 quickly realized that that wasn't going to work. That we 0:17:48.314 --> 0:17:50.754 weren't going to be working together like that Christian and 0:17:50.794 --> 0:17:55.593 I and that took some adjusting. And it's actually the 0:17:55.634 --> 0:17:58.514 thing that when I look back, I wish I had 0:17:58.554 --> 0:18:02.914 realized earlier that we're not married anymore, and so we 0:18:02.994 --> 0:18:05.354 don't necessarily we're not going to be on the same 0:18:05.394 --> 0:18:08.434 page always in an ideal world. 0:18:08.874 --> 0:18:10.234 Co parenting is wonderful. 0:18:10.914 --> 0:18:13.874 I now have a lot of divorced friend I've sought 0:18:13.914 --> 0:18:16.954 out divorced people because I'm so traumatized. 0:18:16.994 --> 0:18:18.674 I've got a divorced. 0:18:18.234 --> 0:18:21.674 Group of women that we call ourselves the Golden Girls, 0:18:22.154 --> 0:18:26.754 and we share information. And in every case, even when 0:18:26.794 --> 0:18:29.594 they've come to the other side and now can co parent, 0:18:30.074 --> 0:18:32.674 there's a part in the middle that we call the 0:18:32.754 --> 0:18:33.314 mean part. 0:18:33.914 --> 0:18:35.194 And it helped me to call it. 0:18:35.114 --> 0:18:38.874 That because it was a part something that had a 0:18:38.914 --> 0:18:41.513 beginning and an end, and it wasn't personal, and it 0:18:41.594 --> 0:18:42.954 wasn't you know. 0:18:43.354 --> 0:18:45.074 And I think every divorce has a mean part. 0:18:45.114 --> 0:18:48.514 I agree, and with girlfriends in money even I ended 0:18:48.514 --> 0:18:51.354 a relationship after nine years and we weren't married, but 0:18:51.434 --> 0:18:57.994 we were embedded. And particularly in my experience, the mean 0:18:58.034 --> 0:19:01.154 part often comes around money, yep. And it doesn't matter 0:19:01.154 --> 0:19:04.474 if you're breaking up with the nicest guy in the world. 0:19:04.954 --> 0:19:09.674 There's something about money suddenly that really brings out that e. 0:19:10.394 --> 0:19:12.394 But it's not even this is my thing, because I 0:19:12.394 --> 0:19:15.793 think about these things a lot. I think it is security, 0:19:16.354 --> 0:19:19.154 you know, at which money represents a lot of security. 0:19:19.514 --> 0:19:20.834 I think it's suit freedom. 0:19:21.154 --> 0:19:25.114 Yeah, and fear, you know, you don't know, and you 0:19:25.234 --> 0:19:27.674 go from being even if you have plenty of money, 0:19:27.834 --> 0:19:31.154 you're suddenly half You've got half as much or whatever 0:19:31.194 --> 0:19:31.793 that looks like. 0:19:32.394 --> 0:19:33.194 And that's scary. 0:19:33.474 --> 0:19:35.554 And if you're you know, I'm in my mid forties 0:19:36.034 --> 0:19:40.634 Christians fifty and so that is a very real fear 0:19:40.714 --> 0:19:43.114 all of a sudden, you know, am I prepared for 0:19:43.434 --> 0:19:44.513 retirement or am I? 0:19:45.074 --> 0:19:45.313 You know? 0:19:45.834 --> 0:19:47.674 And I was in the really lucky position that I've 0:19:47.714 --> 0:19:50.714 never stepped out of work. I earn a good income. 0:19:51.794 --> 0:19:55.594 The best seller every year since twenty fifteen, which. 0:19:55.474 --> 0:19:57.513 You know, I mean that sounds wonderful. It's still you know, 0:19:57.554 --> 0:20:00.314 you look at the numbers and I've got three kid course, 0:20:00.394 --> 0:20:06.754 and you go. But I definitely, I definitely was happy 0:20:06.834 --> 0:20:11.274 to you know, to keep things nice. I was like, yep, 0:20:11.394 --> 0:20:14.994 you know, I wasn't fighting. But I also think that 0:20:16.114 --> 0:20:18.474 you can do everything right and it can still be. 0:20:18.474 --> 0:20:21.634 Hard, of course, and maybe it has to be. Maybe 0:20:21.714 --> 0:20:28.114 it does maybe to you know, cleave apart what God 0:20:28.154 --> 0:20:30.714 put together, do you know what I mean? Or whatever 0:20:30.754 --> 0:20:34.914 the saying is, maybe it has to have that component 0:20:35.074 --> 0:20:35.594 to it. 0:20:36.114 --> 0:20:38.314 Look, I mean, I'm sure there are people who've got 0:20:38.354 --> 0:20:41.754 some whimsical, wonderful divorce, but then you know, why are 0:20:41.754 --> 0:20:42.714 they getting divorced? 0:20:42.994 --> 0:20:46.274 Are there any in your extended group of girlfriends? 0:20:46.434 --> 0:20:49.354 Now there's a few, you know, sort of five years 0:20:49.354 --> 0:20:52.394 plus down the tracks that now are working well together. 0:20:52.594 --> 0:20:52.874 Right. 0:20:53.434 --> 0:20:56.513 I had to and look, I actually this was the 0:20:56.514 --> 0:20:58.714 best thing I ever did. I had to accept that 0:20:59.354 --> 0:21:01.234 I was in charge of what happened in my house 0:21:01.834 --> 0:21:04.314 and Christian was in charge of what happened in his house. 0:21:04.954 --> 0:21:08.954 And it's the most unknow natural thing when you are 0:21:08.994 --> 0:21:12.154 a parent, even to you know, not have your kids 0:21:12.154 --> 0:21:16.434 with you half the time, but to let go of 0:21:16.514 --> 0:21:20.594 things that are really important in your life, like this 0:21:20.634 --> 0:21:22.474 is what time they go to bed. Things you're used 0:21:22.514 --> 0:21:25.394 to having control over this, This is what they eat, 0:21:25.554 --> 0:21:29.234 this is they shower. There are so many things that 0:21:29.314 --> 0:21:32.594 you have to that kind of stuff, bedtime, showering, whatever. 0:21:33.074 --> 0:21:37.834 I felt so much better when I stopped, and you know, 0:21:37.874 --> 0:21:41.274 you keep it to the important things, and there weren't 0:21:41.314 --> 0:21:44.074 any of those, you know, like they were alive and 0:21:44.114 --> 0:21:49.794 looked after well by their dad. And suddenly I unclenched, 0:21:49.994 --> 0:21:53.874 you know, And that too, is a really important thing 0:21:53.994 --> 0:21:56.954 to sort of letting go of the marriage, that you 0:21:57.034 --> 0:22:00.354 do kind of have to understand that when you're married, 0:22:00.394 --> 0:22:04.634 you work together as a team. Of course you should, 0:22:04.674 --> 0:22:07.474 and now I think we're much better at teamwork. But 0:22:07.514 --> 0:22:09.394 that was a bit of a process too, of just 0:22:09.434 --> 0:22:13.994 going well, you know, when not controlling. You know, we 0:22:14.074 --> 0:22:17.994 can't control each other anymore. Maybe I look a lot 0:22:18.034 --> 0:22:18.994 too it my part. 0:22:19.154 --> 0:22:19.313 You know. 0:22:19.634 --> 0:22:26.354 I don't like that idea that you know, he's a narcissist, 0:22:26.394 --> 0:22:30.034 she's crazy. Everyone thinks their X is crazy or a narcissist. 0:22:30.234 --> 0:22:32.674 I don't think that. I see he does. 0:22:33.554 --> 0:22:36.194 He thinks I'm crazy. I think that. 0:22:37.434 --> 0:22:43.154 I think that both of us made mistakes, and especially 0:22:43.194 --> 0:22:45.313 in the early days, I was much more interested in 0:22:45.354 --> 0:22:49.154