1
00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

2
00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:12,352
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on.

3
00:00:14,392 --> 00:00:14,672
Speaker 2: Us.

4
00:00:14,872 --> 00:00:19,072
Speaker 1: Average ossie civilians can't ever truly know what it's like

5
00:00:19,352 --> 00:00:22,271
Speaker 1: to go to war, to be on the ground when

6
00:00:22,272 --> 00:00:26,111
Speaker 1: the enemy is upon you, guns and IEDs, ready to

7
00:00:26,272 --> 00:00:31,632
Speaker 1: kill and maim your life or theirs constant battle. For

8
00:00:31,712 --> 00:00:35,751
Speaker 1: Heston Russell, a Special Forces combat veteran, it was his

9
00:00:36,031 --> 00:00:39,791
Speaker 1: job to navigate that on a daily basis. When he

10
00:00:39,952 --> 00:00:44,672
Speaker 1: and his November Platoon colleagues landed in Afghanistan, amongst the

11
00:00:44,791 --> 00:00:48,591
Speaker 1: dust and the wreckage of years of fighting, Heston had

12
00:00:48,632 --> 00:00:51,792
Speaker 1: to make decisions that none of us would ever hope

13
00:00:51,791 --> 00:00:55,551
Speaker 1: to be responsible for. Do I pull the trigger? Do

14
00:00:55,632 --> 00:00:59,151
Speaker 1: I send my men into that building? Do I continue

15
00:00:59,192 --> 00:01:02,432
Speaker 1: to engage with the enemy or help retrieve the pieces

16
00:01:02,472 --> 00:01:07,232
Speaker 1: of my fallen soldier? All of these very iant decisions

17
00:01:07,432 --> 00:01:09,831
Speaker 1: have to also be weighed up against the rule of

18
00:01:09,912 --> 00:01:13,312
Speaker 1: war that the Australian Defense Force abound by when on

19
00:01:13,312 --> 00:01:16,552
Speaker 1: the battlefield. But what if you were accused of breaching

20
00:01:16,592 --> 00:01:20,752
Speaker 1: those rules? What if the media then ran stories linking

21
00:01:20,831 --> 00:01:24,992
Speaker 1: your name to the words war crimes without there ever

22
00:01:25,032 --> 00:01:34,872
Speaker 1: having been a trial. I'm Claire Murphy and This is

23
00:01:34,952 --> 00:01:39,192
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's

24
00:01:39,191 --> 00:01:42,672
Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

25
00:01:42,792 --> 00:01:46,711
Speaker 1: the most about them. Heston Russell's been through more than

26
00:01:46,752 --> 00:01:50,272
Speaker 1: many of us can imagine. He's been shot at, dropped

27
00:01:50,272 --> 00:01:55,511
Speaker 1: from helicopters, survived tours of Afghanistan and Iraq. He's led

28
00:01:55,512 --> 00:01:59,592
Speaker 1: his men into uncertain territory, relying on intelligence to point

29
00:01:59,592 --> 00:02:02,431
Speaker 1: them in the right direction when the enemy looks all

30
00:02:02,432 --> 00:02:05,392
Speaker 1: too similar to civilians. But it was when he was

31
00:02:05,472 --> 00:02:08,712
Speaker 1: back home he faced the challenge that would become his

32
00:02:08,792 --> 00:02:12,352
Speaker 1: life's purpose. How do you defend yourself when you and

33
00:02:12,432 --> 00:02:15,912
Speaker 1: your men are accused of war crimes, even when you

34
00:02:15,992 --> 00:02:19,432
Speaker 1: have the evidence that the story being told doesn't match

35
00:02:19,512 --> 00:02:23,272
Speaker 1: up to the reality, but no one will listen. How

36
00:02:23,312 --> 00:02:25,992
Speaker 1: do you do that when those who had your back

37
00:02:26,272 --> 00:02:29,312
Speaker 1: one hundred percent while you were in battle all of

38
00:02:29,312 --> 00:02:32,712
Speaker 1: a sudden leave you in the dust. Heston sat down

39
00:02:32,752 --> 00:02:35,432
Speaker 1: with us to discuss his life in uniform and the

40
00:02:35,472 --> 00:02:41,312
Speaker 1: fight for his and his men's reputations. Hessen, thank you

41
00:02:41,632 --> 00:02:43,632
Speaker 1: so much for agreeing to sit down and have a

42
00:02:43,672 --> 00:02:46,832
Speaker 1: chat with us today. We've got decades of things to

43
00:02:46,912 --> 00:02:49,512
Speaker 1: discuss with you today. So we're going to try our

44
00:02:49,512 --> 00:02:52,632
Speaker 1: best to get through it with you. But I wanted

45
00:02:52,672 --> 00:02:55,312
Speaker 1: to start kind of back at the beginning because you

46
00:02:55,432 --> 00:02:57,992
Speaker 1: grew up. When we say in a military family, normally

47
00:02:58,032 --> 00:03:00,272
Speaker 1: it means like mum or dad served and you become

48
00:03:00,432 --> 00:03:02,472
Speaker 1: like an army brat and you move around the country

49
00:03:02,512 --> 00:03:05,952
Speaker 1: a lot. But your type of military family is like

50
00:03:06,632 --> 00:03:10,312
Speaker 1: grandparents and great grandparents, and we're talking about, you know,

51
00:03:10,472 --> 00:03:12,952
Speaker 1: a relative who served on the Western Front in World

52
00:03:12,952 --> 00:03:16,592
Speaker 1: War One. Like, You've got a very long family history

53
00:03:16,592 --> 00:03:19,752
Speaker 1: of military service. So for you as a kid, was

54
00:03:19,792 --> 00:03:21,872
Speaker 1: it ever an idea that you were going to do

55
00:03:21,992 --> 00:03:24,152
Speaker 1: anything else other than serve in the military.

56
00:03:24,432 --> 00:03:27,432
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a fifth generation veteran. Even my brother served

57
00:03:27,432 --> 00:03:30,192
Speaker 2: as well. But growing up, you know, dad was in

58
00:03:30,232 --> 00:03:32,592
Speaker 2: the military, and we moved around, and we knew that

59
00:03:32,752 --> 00:03:35,112
Speaker 2: mum's dad and mum had been in the military, but

60
00:03:35,592 --> 00:03:38,192
Speaker 2: it wasn't spoken of a lot. It's only been these

61
00:03:38,272 --> 00:03:42,032
Speaker 2: last few years, going through all these trials and tribulations

62
00:03:42,072 --> 00:03:45,352
Speaker 2: and media and all the rest, that my ancestral heritage

63
00:03:45,392 --> 00:03:48,832
Speaker 2: going back five generations has become the topic of conversation.

64
00:03:49,072 --> 00:03:52,312
Speaker 3: But no, I mean, growing up, going through school.

65
00:03:52,352 --> 00:03:55,072
Speaker 2: There were all the different machinations of everything from an

66
00:03:55,112 --> 00:03:57,392
Speaker 2: astronaut through the Superman all sorry Batman.

67
00:03:57,432 --> 00:03:59,432
Speaker 3: At some stage I was going to be Batman. Got Together.

68
00:03:59,632 --> 00:04:03,032
Speaker 2: Absolutely that was my favorite T shirt. I wouldn't let

69
00:04:03,072 --> 00:04:04,952
Speaker 2: mum wash it. Apparently I'd sneak out at night as

70
00:04:04,952 --> 00:04:06,592
Speaker 2: a four year old and get it from the washing hamper.

71
00:04:07,272 --> 00:04:09,832
Speaker 2: Being brought up around Dad and his mates and their

72
00:04:09,912 --> 00:04:12,752
Speaker 2: sons and all the aspirational men in my life, particularly

73
00:04:12,832 --> 00:04:14,992
Speaker 2: as I went through a phase of being.

74
00:04:14,832 --> 00:04:16,551
Speaker 3: Overweight and unpopular at high school.

75
00:04:16,872 --> 00:04:19,912
Speaker 2: It's of I kind of saw myself self actualized, or

76
00:04:19,912 --> 00:04:22,231
Speaker 2: at least the most aspirational version of men in my

77
00:04:22,272 --> 00:04:24,351
Speaker 2: life being those in the military. And that was more

78
00:04:24,392 --> 00:04:27,552
Speaker 2: so the influence to me as opposed to a you know,

79
00:04:28,552 --> 00:04:30,632
Speaker 2: designment to fulfill a family legacy.

80
00:04:32,352 --> 00:04:36,112
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that struggle. When I've read comments from

81
00:04:36,112 --> 00:04:39,192
Speaker 1: you or listened to the podcast that you've done, you

82
00:04:39,232 --> 00:04:41,592
Speaker 1: talk about high school like it was a real trauma

83
00:04:41,912 --> 00:04:44,312
Speaker 1: time in your life for you, and you talk about,

84
00:04:44,472 --> 00:04:46,512
Speaker 1: you know, you describe yourself as you know, the fat

85
00:04:46,512 --> 00:04:49,112
Speaker 1: I'm cool kid, which I know will resonate with so

86
00:04:49,272 --> 00:04:53,392
Speaker 1: many people listening to this right now. What was that

87
00:04:53,952 --> 00:04:55,671
Speaker 1: like for you and I know that you're also the

88
00:04:55,752 --> 00:04:58,432
Speaker 1: target of bullying. How do you think that shaped you

89
00:04:58,472 --> 00:05:00,312
Speaker 1: think who you've ended up becoming.

90
00:05:00,592 --> 00:05:01,672
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I hated it.

91
00:05:01,952 --> 00:05:03,592
Speaker 2: It just came from a place of not knowing who

92
00:05:03,632 --> 00:05:07,152
Speaker 2: I was and so readily looking to change myself to

93
00:05:07,192 --> 00:05:12,912
Speaker 2: fit in. And it's interesting because being where I am now,

94
00:05:12,912 --> 00:05:15,192
Speaker 2: in the experience I've had since, it's actually kind of

95
00:05:15,232 --> 00:05:20,392
Speaker 2: the personality profile that kind of thrives for Defense force recruitment.

96
00:05:20,432 --> 00:05:22,472
Speaker 2: We call it the lost Boys, the Peter Pan lost

97
00:05:22,512 --> 00:05:26,232
Speaker 2: boy syndrome, where yeah, it's actually really easy to then

98
00:05:26,352 --> 00:05:30,072
Speaker 2: go on and see a life of the military as

99
00:05:30,552 --> 00:05:33,432
Speaker 2: this opportunity, this journey that provides this structure to help

100
00:05:33,472 --> 00:05:37,072
Speaker 2: you develop an identity. And yeah, it was a really

101
00:05:37,112 --> 00:05:41,272
Speaker 2: confusing time for me, even on a sexual perspective, Like

102
00:05:41,312 --> 00:05:42,392
Speaker 2: I never had a girlfriend.

103
00:05:42,392 --> 00:05:43,592
Speaker 3: I tried to have a girlfriend.

104
00:05:44,112 --> 00:05:47,312
Speaker 2: I guess I started to find guys attractive, but more

105
00:05:47,352 --> 00:05:49,672
Speaker 2: so in an aspirational way. I wanted to be fit

106
00:05:49,872 --> 00:05:52,552
Speaker 2: like them. I didn't want to be romantic with them.

107
00:05:52,592 --> 00:05:56,312
Speaker 2: But yeah, at the same time, it was you know, parents, divorce,

108
00:05:56,392 --> 00:05:58,351
Speaker 2: all that good stuff, and I just really struggled not

109
00:05:58,432 --> 00:06:00,832
Speaker 2: having I guess a good friend or a good friendship

110
00:06:00,872 --> 00:06:03,152
Speaker 2: group and mentoring within that that helped me to get

111
00:06:03,192 --> 00:06:06,512
Speaker 2: that through or was a pretty pretty crazy state. And

112
00:06:06,512 --> 00:06:08,712
Speaker 2: I also didn't want to bring those troubles home, so

113
00:06:08,752 --> 00:06:10,432
Speaker 2: I really dealt with them a lot on my own

114
00:06:10,472 --> 00:06:12,512
Speaker 2: and didn't really tell my parents a lot about what

115
00:06:12,592 --> 00:06:13,112
Speaker 2: was going on.

116
00:06:13,472 --> 00:06:15,752
Speaker 1: Was that choice because you knew that your mum and

117
00:06:15,792 --> 00:06:19,032
Speaker 1: dad's relationship was struggling too, that you didn't want to

118
00:06:19,032 --> 00:06:21,312
Speaker 1: add to that because they did, as you mentioned, separate

119
00:06:21,392 --> 00:06:23,592
Speaker 1: when you were younger too, Was that part of that

120
00:06:23,632 --> 00:06:25,632
Speaker 1: decision not to want to bring that to them.

121
00:06:25,832 --> 00:06:27,672
Speaker 2: I think it was more so about not wanting to

122
00:06:28,272 --> 00:06:30,112
Speaker 2: seeing it as failure and not wanting.

123
00:06:29,872 --> 00:06:30,992
Speaker 3: To you know.

124
00:06:31,112 --> 00:06:34,232
Speaker 2: Just further, I guess own up that I was struggling,

125
00:06:34,232 --> 00:06:37,272
Speaker 2: that I wasn't achieving as high as I expected me

126
00:06:37,352 --> 00:06:39,472
Speaker 2: to be, or they expected me to be, or more so,

127
00:06:39,552 --> 00:06:40,272
Speaker 2: they wanted me.

128
00:06:40,312 --> 00:06:42,072
Speaker 3: To be happy and all the rest.

129
00:06:42,112 --> 00:06:46,272
Speaker 2: So I've developed along my life a good skill of

130
00:06:46,352 --> 00:06:48,952
Speaker 2: being able to I guess gloss over things so as

131
00:06:48,992 --> 00:06:50,272
Speaker 2: others don't worry about me.

132
00:06:50,512 --> 00:06:54,632
Speaker 1: Essentially, we are going to bring up your sexuality as

133
00:06:54,672 --> 00:06:58,832
Speaker 1: it pertains to your actual defamation case later on. In

134
00:06:58,872 --> 00:07:01,472
Speaker 1: your case, it does become interesting when you factor in

135
00:07:01,512 --> 00:07:04,432
Speaker 1: that you are in the military at that point where

136
00:07:04,432 --> 00:07:07,752
Speaker 1: you're still trying to figure yourself out. Yeah, what was

137
00:07:07,792 --> 00:07:10,352
Speaker 1: it like for you to be in that really hyper

138
00:07:10,512 --> 00:07:14,272
Speaker 1: masculine environment around men who And I know you've kind

139
00:07:14,272 --> 00:07:15,592
Speaker 1: of said that there's a little bit of a lost

140
00:07:15,592 --> 00:07:18,432
Speaker 1: boys perspective there, but you know the perspective we see

141
00:07:18,472 --> 00:07:22,152
Speaker 1: if military men are like these tough, sometimes homophobic, like

142
00:07:22,592 --> 00:07:26,472
Speaker 1: real straight man's men kind of environment, how is that

143
00:07:26,512 --> 00:07:29,512
Speaker 1: for you when you're trying to figure out who you

144
00:07:29,552 --> 00:07:31,792
Speaker 1: are when you're in that hyper masculine environment.

145
00:07:32,072 --> 00:07:34,472
Speaker 3: I think context is key in particular.

146
00:07:34,632 --> 00:07:37,952
Speaker 2: I joined the military in two thousand and three, so

147
00:07:38,352 --> 00:07:41,992
Speaker 2: very different time, and I then joined into the Special

148
00:07:42,032 --> 00:07:44,152
Speaker 2: Forces in twenty ten, which is.

149
00:07:44,152 --> 00:07:46,592
Speaker 1: Like a whole other level again, right, because sas have

150
00:07:46,632 --> 00:07:48,912
Speaker 1: got a real expectation on who that man is.

151
00:07:49,312 --> 00:07:50,872
Speaker 3: Yeah, so sas and commandos.

152
00:07:50,912 --> 00:07:55,432
Speaker 2: I joined the Commandos in Sydney and yeah, very hyper

153
00:07:55,552 --> 00:07:57,672
Speaker 2: masculine even going through the selection course.

154
00:07:57,752 --> 00:08:00,672
Speaker 3: So everyone has a call sign what you call each.

155
00:08:00,552 --> 00:08:02,512
Speaker 2: Other on the radio, so you don't use your names

156
00:08:02,552 --> 00:08:03,792
Speaker 2: to protect people's identities.

157
00:08:03,832 --> 00:08:06,232
Speaker 1: And it's just like Maverick and goose on top gun

158
00:08:06,472 --> 00:08:06,952
Speaker 1: kind of.

159
00:08:06,912 --> 00:08:09,792
Speaker 3: Kind of but more more structured, more phonetical.

160
00:08:09,912 --> 00:08:12,552
Speaker 2: Those those jet pilots get to make up their own

161
00:08:13,672 --> 00:08:16,232
Speaker 2: As the commander. I was an officer and I became

162
00:08:16,272 --> 00:08:18,672
Speaker 2: a commander, so a platoon commander of forty people. In

163
00:08:18,672 --> 00:08:22,712
Speaker 2: the commandos, your courselime was always alpha, so the commander's

164
00:08:22,752 --> 00:08:25,272
Speaker 2: course sign was Alpha. And then my platoon was November,

165
00:08:25,312 --> 00:08:28,232
Speaker 2: so I was November Alpha. And even throughout your training,

166
00:08:28,272 --> 00:08:29,672
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, you're the alpha, you need to

167
00:08:29,712 --> 00:08:31,752
Speaker 2: be the alpha male, so on and so forth, and

168
00:08:32,312 --> 00:08:33,992
Speaker 2: fast forward to the end of my career. I actually

169
00:08:34,072 --> 00:08:37,072
Speaker 2: coined the phrase alphabetical male, because you just need to be,

170
00:08:37,192 --> 00:08:40,192
Speaker 2: as the leader, adaptable to achieve the purpose and not

171
00:08:40,232 --> 00:08:43,352
Speaker 2: get into these personal confrontations with people. But you know,

172
00:08:43,392 --> 00:08:47,312
Speaker 2: the unit was four hundred men qualified commandos, plus another

173
00:08:47,552 --> 00:08:50,552
Speaker 2: you know, five or six hundred support staff and not

174
00:08:50,712 --> 00:08:52,592
Speaker 2: one single openly gay person.

175
00:08:52,712 --> 00:08:54,952
Speaker 3: But again this was twenty ten onwards.

176
00:08:54,992 --> 00:08:58,872
Speaker 2: And the fascinating part is, you know, like to call

177
00:08:58,952 --> 00:09:02,432
Speaker 2: someone gay and all the rest was still you know, derogatory,

178
00:09:02,472 --> 00:09:05,912
Speaker 2: but in like a jovial way. But the hard part

179
00:09:05,952 --> 00:09:08,872
Speaker 2: is to those on the outside, that military culture and

180
00:09:08,872 --> 00:09:13,712
Speaker 2: that hyper operationally focused Special Forces culture where it really

181
00:09:13,752 --> 00:09:16,872
Speaker 2: did not matter what you did in your personal life

182
00:09:16,912 --> 00:09:19,232
Speaker 2: as long as it did not impact on your ability

183
00:09:19,272 --> 00:09:21,752
Speaker 2: to deploy at a moment's notice to achieve a mission.

184
00:09:22,272 --> 00:09:26,192
Speaker 2: You know, we deployed on a dime to Afghanistan, Iraq,

185
00:09:26,272 --> 00:09:28,832
Speaker 2: to other theaters of war, to other conflicts, to other

186
00:09:28,872 --> 00:09:31,752
Speaker 2: emergencies to help out the government, and it really came

187
00:09:31,792 --> 00:09:33,832
Speaker 2: down to how good you were at your job and

188
00:09:33,872 --> 00:09:37,992
Speaker 2: how well you work together as a team. And that

189
00:09:38,112 --> 00:09:41,792
Speaker 2: being said, by the time in twenty fifteen when I

190
00:09:41,832 --> 00:09:45,391
Speaker 2: finally decided and accepted that I was gay after spending

191
00:09:45,832 --> 00:09:49,032
Speaker 2: many years trying to literally change the way in which

192
00:09:49,312 --> 00:09:51,912
Speaker 2: I saw my sexuality, seeing it as a choice, I

193
00:09:51,912 --> 00:09:53,512
Speaker 2: can tell anyone out there, I went through my own

194
00:09:53,512 --> 00:09:54,712
Speaker 2: conversion therapy and all the.

195
00:09:54,672 --> 00:09:56,432
Speaker 3: Rest, and it definitely is not.

196
00:09:57,112 --> 00:09:59,192
Speaker 2: But then at that point in time, you know, again,

197
00:09:59,232 --> 00:10:02,832
Speaker 2: there wasn't another openly gay person in Special Forces l

198
00:10:02,832 --> 00:10:05,312
Speaker 2: alone as an officer. At that time, I was a major,

199
00:10:05,792 --> 00:10:07,752
Speaker 2: and I just it made the decision that I didn't

200
00:10:07,792 --> 00:10:12,512
Speaker 2: need that self affirmation or that public affirmation of accepting

201
00:10:12,512 --> 00:10:15,592
Speaker 2: my sexuality within a workplace where I saw it only

202
00:10:15,632 --> 00:10:19,632
Speaker 2: potentially being something that brought uncertainty into what needed to

203
00:10:19,712 --> 00:10:23,672
Speaker 2: be a certain environment, which needed to be mission focused

204
00:10:23,672 --> 00:10:26,392
Speaker 2: and team focused, where I didn't need to have, you know,

205
00:10:26,632 --> 00:10:30,032
Speaker 2: stigmas or shame that people naturally have through the upbringings,

206
00:10:30,072 --> 00:10:32,112
Speaker 2: worrying is the boss checking me out in the showers

207
00:10:32,112 --> 00:10:34,392
Speaker 2: and all the rest. And I didn't need, you know,

208
00:10:34,472 --> 00:10:38,232
Speaker 2: that entitlement because my love and my passion was my job,

209
00:10:38,632 --> 00:10:42,112
Speaker 2: and me accepting myself made me better at my job,

210
00:10:42,312 --> 00:10:45,152
Speaker 2: and I just accepted that's a part of service, that's

211
00:10:45,152 --> 00:10:47,232
Speaker 2: a part of putting the mission and team before yourself.

212
00:10:47,672 --> 00:10:50,072
Speaker 2: But the hardest part, in particular was just not having

213
00:10:50,632 --> 00:10:51,992
Speaker 2: someone like me that I.

214
00:10:51,912 --> 00:10:52,752
Speaker 3: Could look forward to.

215
00:10:53,272 --> 00:10:55,952
Speaker 2: People call it Jovic chokingly that I was like, you know,

216
00:10:56,192 --> 00:10:58,272
Speaker 2: a bit of a unicorns. You know, Australia is only

217
00:10:58,312 --> 00:11:02,112
Speaker 2: of a Special Forces officer who was gay that we

218
00:11:02,152 --> 00:11:03,472
Speaker 2: know of, And.

219
00:11:04,232 --> 00:11:08,672
Speaker 1: They say that about footballers too. There's one that actually

220
00:11:08,672 --> 00:11:10,712
Speaker 1: comes out. Who knows how many there actually are.

221
00:11:10,832 --> 00:11:14,112
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and not having someone that I could see a

222
00:11:14,152 --> 00:11:17,592
Speaker 2: part of myself in in front of me as a mentor.

223
00:11:17,792 --> 00:11:18,832
Speaker 3: Was really difficult.

224
00:11:18,912 --> 00:11:22,432
Speaker 2: But it just made me at an early age, I guess,

225
00:11:22,512 --> 00:11:24,952
Speaker 2: learned that lesson of self acceptance which I know many

226
00:11:25,032 --> 00:11:28,271
Speaker 2: people struggle with. But coming to that self acceptance, telling

227
00:11:28,312 --> 00:11:30,952
Speaker 2: my mum and sister and just those that I wanted

228
00:11:30,952 --> 00:11:34,032
Speaker 2: to and just appreciating that so much more of my

229
00:11:34,112 --> 00:11:37,232
Speaker 2: identity was simply was more than simply my sexuality.

230
00:11:37,552 --> 00:11:39,472
Speaker 3: That's a lesson I got to learn very young, well

231
00:11:39,552 --> 00:11:42,032
Speaker 3: very young in my growth as it would be anyway.

232
00:11:42,792 --> 00:11:44,432
Speaker 1: I'd love to know how you made it through ADFAR,

233
00:11:44,832 --> 00:11:48,752
Speaker 1: which is the officer training facility, because I've known a

234
00:11:48,752 --> 00:11:51,552
Speaker 1: few people who've gone through that and done true and

235
00:11:52,312 --> 00:11:55,552
Speaker 1: they described to me a culture which I have not

236
00:11:55,712 --> 00:11:59,712
Speaker 1: known to exist in any other training facility. There are

237
00:11:59,792 --> 00:12:06,592
Speaker 1: lots of hazing rituals, there's lots of interesting opinions towards women,

238
00:12:07,312 --> 00:12:12,232
Speaker 1: and there is essentially a body count for sexual partners

239
00:12:12,392 --> 00:12:14,352
Speaker 1: for a lot of the officers that I have known

240
00:12:14,592 --> 00:12:16,432
Speaker 1: in that time. And I don't know if that culture

241
00:12:16,432 --> 00:12:20,151
Speaker 1: has changed since then, But I, like I said, young man,

242
00:12:20,352 --> 00:12:22,552
Speaker 1: still trying to identify who you are in the world,

243
00:12:22,632 --> 00:12:24,992
Speaker 1: Like how did you find officer training?

244
00:12:25,592 --> 00:12:28,072
Speaker 2: When I marched into ADFAR in January two thousand and three,

245
00:12:28,112 --> 00:12:32,472
Speaker 2: I had just turned seventeen November beforehand, being in being

246
00:12:32,472 --> 00:12:34,472
Speaker 2: in school from Queensland. So I had a fake id

247
00:12:34,632 --> 00:12:38,992
Speaker 2: my whole first year, and that was my first introduction

248
00:12:39,072 --> 00:12:42,432
Speaker 2: to drinking and to everything. I loved ADVA. I loved

249
00:12:42,472 --> 00:12:45,592
Speaker 2: the Military College the year after even more. But I

250
00:12:45,632 --> 00:12:47,832
Speaker 2: never encountered a lot of that what you speak of.

251
00:12:47,872 --> 00:12:50,192
Speaker 2: And I'm interesting if they went through Adver before or

252
00:12:50,232 --> 00:12:53,752
Speaker 2: after me, because straight from the outset, you're in communal living.

253
00:12:53,792 --> 00:12:55,472
Speaker 2: You know, there's forty of you living in a building,

254
00:12:55,512 --> 00:12:57,592
Speaker 2: and you live in sort of section hallways for this

255
00:12:57,752 --> 00:13:00,312
Speaker 2: and for that side, each sharing a bathroom and a laundry.

256
00:13:00,352 --> 00:13:02,952
Speaker 2: And for us it was four boys this side, four

257
00:13:03,032 --> 00:13:06,032
Speaker 2: ladies that side, and you were just integrated and everything

258
00:13:06,152 --> 00:13:09,271
Speaker 2: was mixed from the day dot and you really had

259
00:13:09,312 --> 00:13:12,392
Speaker 2: to work together in that communal environment, and it was

260
00:13:12,472 --> 00:13:15,511
Speaker 2: really enjoyable because you kind of got sisters and cousins

261
00:13:15,552 --> 00:13:17,592
Speaker 2: and you were all going through I loved ad For because,

262
00:13:17,712 --> 00:13:20,952
Speaker 2: unlike high school, where there was kind of social rankings

263
00:13:20,952 --> 00:13:23,271
Speaker 2: based off how you looked and popularity and all the rest,

264
00:13:23,792 --> 00:13:25,952
Speaker 2: we were all at ad For together, all at a

265
00:13:25,992 --> 00:13:28,872
Speaker 2: common starting line, and there was just such a fire

266
00:13:28,912 --> 00:13:32,032
Speaker 2: hose of information, both in academics but particularly in military

267
00:13:32,072 --> 00:13:33,952
Speaker 2: training that we all were going through for the first

268
00:13:33,952 --> 00:13:36,712
Speaker 2: time together. And one thing that I was very good

269
00:13:36,712 --> 00:13:39,952
Speaker 2: at was learning things very quickly and a very practical

270
00:13:39,992 --> 00:13:41,792
Speaker 2: hands on learner, and most of this stuff was very

271
00:13:41,832 --> 00:13:42,792
Speaker 2: practical hands on.

272
00:13:43,272 --> 00:13:44,432
Speaker 3: So it was really enjoyable.

273
00:13:44,472 --> 00:13:46,952
Speaker 2: Where you might bring in some high school stigmas of

274
00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:51,832
Speaker 2: social constructs and all the rest, but very rapidly people

275
00:13:51,832 --> 00:13:55,032
Speaker 2: were exposed based on their confidence level and again how

276
00:13:55,072 --> 00:13:58,232
Speaker 2: you operated with others in a communal environment. And the fat,

277
00:13:58,352 --> 00:14:00,552
Speaker 2: unpopular kid from high school was very good at doing

278
00:14:00,552 --> 00:14:03,752
Speaker 2: things practically, learning things quickly, and others were forced to

279
00:14:03,792 --> 00:14:05,672
Speaker 2: be my friend, including living with me as well.

280
00:14:05,752 --> 00:14:07,032
Speaker 3: So it was fun to plastic.

281
00:14:08,712 --> 00:14:11,032
Speaker 2: And there was such a focus on physical fitness as well.

282
00:14:11,072 --> 00:14:13,592
Speaker 2: Everything was so really focused on physical fitness, and such

283
00:14:13,592 --> 00:14:16,272
Speaker 2: a great structure and all the resources and gyms and

284
00:14:16,792 --> 00:14:18,592
Speaker 2: food and everything, so it was really it really was

285
00:14:18,632 --> 00:14:20,632
Speaker 2: a great environment. And I'm very lucky I went to

286
00:14:20,632 --> 00:14:22,752
Speaker 2: ad For as the little shit of a seventeen year

287
00:14:22,752 --> 00:14:26,352
Speaker 2: old I was before marching out four years later to

288
00:14:26,392 --> 00:14:28,352
Speaker 2: become an officer in charge of soldiers.

289
00:14:28,752 --> 00:14:30,272
Speaker 1: So when you come out of ad For, you.

290
00:14:30,272 --> 00:14:32,632
Speaker 3: Are I go up to the normal army first?

291
00:14:33,272 --> 00:14:33,952
Speaker 1: Normal army first?

292
00:14:34,032 --> 00:14:35,512
Speaker 2: Yeah? I go up to the normal Army in Townsill

293
00:14:35,592 --> 00:14:38,392
Speaker 2: for three years and then I try out for the

294
00:14:38,432 --> 00:14:40,072
Speaker 2: Special Forces in twenty ten.

295
00:14:40,712 --> 00:14:43,632
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's after Special Forces training commando training that

296
00:14:43,672 --> 00:14:47,352
Speaker 1: you come out as the commander for November Platoon. Correct,

297
00:14:48,192 --> 00:14:50,392
Speaker 1: you're still quite a young man, and the people that

298
00:14:50,432 --> 00:14:54,232
Speaker 1: you are leading, they have already done tours, they've already

299
00:14:54,232 --> 00:14:59,712
Speaker 1: been to Afghanistan. Like, these are experienced team members that

300
00:14:59,752 --> 00:15:02,392
Speaker 1: you're now in charge of. You haven't been deployed to

301
00:15:02,432 --> 00:15:05,792
Speaker 1: Afghanistan yet by this stage. What was that like for

302
00:15:05,872 --> 00:15:08,232
Speaker 1: you to try and come in and lead people who

303
00:15:08,312 --> 00:15:10,712
Speaker 1: essentially have a lot more experience than you. Was that

304
00:15:10,752 --> 00:15:12,192
Speaker 1: a tough gig from the get go?

305
00:15:12,552 --> 00:15:16,592
Speaker 2: Yeah, really imposter syndrome, you know, an inferiority complex and

306
00:15:16,592 --> 00:15:19,352
Speaker 2: all the rest. The Kommando selection course was six weeks

307
00:15:19,352 --> 00:15:21,352
Speaker 2: and then you'd go on for the whole year's worth

308
00:15:21,392 --> 00:15:26,272
Speaker 2: of training doing all sorts of specialist courses from fast roping, demolitions, weapons,

309
00:15:26,472 --> 00:15:28,912
Speaker 2: you know, parachuting and all the rest. And most of

310
00:15:28,952 --> 00:15:32,112
Speaker 2: your instructors throughout that year's worth of training come from

311
00:15:32,192 --> 00:15:34,312
Speaker 2: the unit that you're going to go into, and so

312
00:15:34,392 --> 00:15:36,632
Speaker 2: I'd already got experience to some of these you know,

313
00:15:36,792 --> 00:15:38,512
Speaker 2: some of these people that I was going to be

314
00:15:38,512 --> 00:15:42,472
Speaker 2: in charge of had been instructing me to get my qualifications.

315
00:15:41,672 --> 00:15:42,872
Speaker 3: Throughout that whole year.

316
00:15:43,592 --> 00:15:46,432
Speaker 2: And also twenty ten, You're right, I was twenty five

317
00:15:47,392 --> 00:15:52,192
Speaker 2: and November Platoon was in Afghanistan for part of that time,

318
00:15:52,352 --> 00:15:57,872
Speaker 2: and they suffered a helicopter crash that killed three members Zimapplin,

319
00:15:57,992 --> 00:16:01,392
Speaker 2: Ben Chuck and Scott Palmer, and injured a bunch. More So,

320
00:16:01,472 --> 00:16:04,392
Speaker 2: then when I took over November Platoon, it was off

321
00:16:04,392 --> 00:16:06,232
Speaker 2: the back of that, off the back of like you say,

322
00:16:06,432 --> 00:16:09,472
Speaker 2: I was the youngest person in the platoon, a platoon

323
00:16:09,512 --> 00:16:12,872
Speaker 2: full of warriors who had deployed multiple times beforehand and

324
00:16:12,912 --> 00:16:15,832
Speaker 2: who had just recently on their last appointment, encountered one

325
00:16:15,832 --> 00:16:18,632
Speaker 2: of the greatest tragic incidents and losses of life. So

326
00:16:19,312 --> 00:16:23,192
Speaker 2: it was really really difficult from a on paper, Holy cow,

327
00:16:23,392 --> 00:16:25,872
Speaker 2: I'm not good enough for this. And as I talk

328
00:16:25,912 --> 00:16:28,232
Speaker 2: about when I do a lot of my public speaking

329
00:16:28,472 --> 00:16:30,512
Speaker 2: in the book and in the podcast I've done, it

330
00:16:30,592 --> 00:16:32,752
Speaker 2: was one of the greatest lessons I've learned in leadership,

331
00:16:32,792 --> 00:16:35,592
Speaker 2: where it just comes down to being competent in your craft,

332
00:16:35,712 --> 00:16:38,752
Speaker 2: being good at your job. My job as a platoon

333
00:16:38,792 --> 00:16:41,712
Speaker 2: commander was to be an expert in leadership and planning.

334
00:16:42,152 --> 00:16:44,352
Speaker 2: And as a part of that leadership, it's to bring

335
00:16:44,432 --> 00:16:48,752
Speaker 2: in the experience of those in my team to collaborate

336
00:16:49,032 --> 00:16:52,672
Speaker 2: as we communicate and plan ultimately with the person to

337
00:16:52,832 --> 00:16:55,632
Speaker 2: decide and accept the responsibility for the plan, whether it's

338
00:16:55,632 --> 00:16:59,472
Speaker 2: good or bad, whatever the results are, and then go

339
00:16:59,552 --> 00:17:01,992
Speaker 2: through the process of forming, normaling and storming and bringing

340
00:17:01,992 --> 00:17:05,231
Speaker 2: people together. But first and foremost, like being proficient at

341
00:17:05,232 --> 00:17:07,072
Speaker 2: your job. With that group of people, it didn't matter

342
00:17:07,152 --> 00:17:09,152
Speaker 2: how much of a good bloke you were, you'd come in.

343
00:17:09,071 --> 00:17:11,512
Speaker 3: There and try and make friends with everyone. They don't care.

344
00:17:11,671 --> 00:17:15,391
Speaker 2: They've seen commanders come and go, and they've experienced the

345
00:17:15,431 --> 00:17:17,552
Speaker 2: tip of the spear staff that no matter how good

346
00:17:17,552 --> 00:17:20,111
Speaker 2: a bloke you are, you know you can still suffer

347
00:17:20,192 --> 00:17:23,272
Speaker 2: tragedies overseas on operations. So my job was to be

348
00:17:23,391 --> 00:17:25,752
Speaker 2: the best I could be at my job, earn their

349
00:17:25,792 --> 00:17:28,631
Speaker 2: respect through doing my job, and then from there looking

350
00:17:28,671 --> 00:17:32,232
Speaker 2: for the opportunity to draw on their collective knowledge and

351
00:17:32,512 --> 00:17:34,992
Speaker 2: provide the best outcomes for the missions that were our

352
00:17:35,111 --> 00:17:36,191
Speaker 2: ultimate purpose together.

353
00:17:37,111 --> 00:17:38,591
Speaker 1: Can I ask a bit about the training that you've

354
00:17:38,671 --> 00:17:42,391
Speaker 1: kind of touched on a bit there. I know it's

355
00:17:42,831 --> 00:17:45,391
Speaker 1: a part of your training to become desensitized to killing

356
00:17:45,472 --> 00:17:48,712
Speaker 1: human beings. Now, that is just a fact of being

357
00:17:48,752 --> 00:17:51,191
Speaker 1: in the military, even if you find it a barrent

358
00:17:51,272 --> 00:17:54,591
Speaker 1: as you know, a citizen, it's just part of what

359
00:17:54,671 --> 00:17:56,552
Speaker 1: you have to learn. Can you tell me through a

360
00:17:56,591 --> 00:18:00,591
Speaker 1: little bit about how you become desensitized to killing another

361
00:18:00,671 --> 00:18:03,671
Speaker 1: human being? It seems such a foreign idea for us.

362
00:18:03,792 --> 00:18:06,671
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not so much overt, like you're not sat

363
00:18:06,712 --> 00:18:09,391
Speaker 2: down in front of PowerPoint presentations and videos, you know,

364
00:18:09,472 --> 00:18:11,751
Speaker 2: watching people die and all the rest. It's kind of

365
00:18:12,472 --> 00:18:15,591
Speaker 2: ingrained from even basic training. Entering into the military. You

366
00:18:15,631 --> 00:18:17,552
Speaker 2: have to go to the range and learn how to

367
00:18:17,591 --> 00:18:20,591
Speaker 2: shoot the rifle and the targets you shoot at, you know,

368
00:18:20,631 --> 00:18:23,591
Speaker 2: sort of the outlines of people, like an armed person

369
00:18:23,671 --> 00:18:26,711
Speaker 2: running at you through to just so much of the

370
00:18:26,752 --> 00:18:30,032
Speaker 2: training that you do, whether it's blank fire training and scenarios.

371
00:18:30,071 --> 00:18:32,992
Speaker 2: You know, you're shooting at people, you're shooting at each other,

372
00:18:33,032 --> 00:18:35,871
Speaker 2: you're playing dressing up, playing the enemy against each other.

373
00:18:36,071 --> 00:18:38,231
Speaker 1: When you say dressing up like the enemy, is it

374
00:18:38,272 --> 00:18:40,711
Speaker 1: the enemy of the dear? Time like is it? Because

375
00:18:40,712 --> 00:18:42,911
Speaker 1: I'm presuming at some stage it would have been German

376
00:18:43,032 --> 00:18:45,791
Speaker 1: soldiers in our history, and now it seems, you know

377
00:18:45,952 --> 00:18:49,671
Speaker 1: still Middle Eastern people who aren't. We're in uniforms, like

378
00:18:49,752 --> 00:18:50,951
Speaker 1: are we talking about dressing up?

379
00:18:50,992 --> 00:18:52,151
Speaker 3: Like that? Great question.

380
00:18:52,272 --> 00:18:54,911
Speaker 2: So throughout basic training, so throughout my ad for days,

381
00:18:54,992 --> 00:18:57,551
Speaker 2: and even in my time in the normal infantry up

382
00:18:57,591 --> 00:19:01,751
Speaker 2: in Townsville, so the military has developed this doctrinal enemy

383
00:19:01,792 --> 00:19:05,351
Speaker 2: called the Missourians that have their own uniforms, their own

384
00:19:05,671 --> 00:19:09,351
Speaker 2: weapons and equipment. We basically designed a whole doctrinal enemy

385
00:19:09,391 --> 00:19:12,391
Speaker 2: force that are per the conventional.

386
00:19:11,911 --> 00:19:14,231
Speaker 3: Land on land, air on airc on sea battle.

387
00:19:14,831 --> 00:19:18,111
Speaker 2: Then when you go into specific training for deployments and

388
00:19:18,151 --> 00:19:21,272
Speaker 2: operations like in the Special Forces, that's indeed when we

389
00:19:21,351 --> 00:19:24,552
Speaker 2: adapted it to the specific role players and outfits and

390
00:19:24,591 --> 00:19:26,751
Speaker 2: all the rest that we encountered within where we were

391
00:19:26,831 --> 00:19:28,232
Speaker 2: going in the Middle East to where we were going

392
00:19:28,232 --> 00:19:28,671
Speaker 2: in Iraq.

393
00:19:32,151 --> 00:19:35,471
Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

394
00:19:35,992 --> 00:19:39,471
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Heston Russell, the Australian Special Forces veteran

395
00:19:39,671 --> 00:19:43,591
Speaker 1: who won a defamation case against the ABC over false

396
00:19:43,591 --> 00:19:48,351
Speaker 1: war crime allegations. Up next, Heston tells me about his

397
00:19:48,552 --> 00:19:58,272
Speaker 1: first deployment to Afghanistan. So I love that your first

398
00:19:58,272 --> 00:20:04,311
Speaker 1: deployment to Afghanistan wasn't like the standard military deployment because

399
00:20:04,391 --> 00:20:09,352
Speaker 1: you got to escort then Prime Minister Julia Gillard to Afghanistan.

400
00:20:09,391 --> 00:20:10,511
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what that was like?

401
00:20:10,712 --> 00:20:13,712
Speaker 2: Yes, I was her personal security officer, So for ease

402
00:20:13,712 --> 00:20:16,351
Speaker 2: of explanation, I was her personal one on one bodyguard.

403
00:20:16,831 --> 00:20:19,351
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're right again, I've been chomping at the

404
00:20:19,391 --> 00:20:22,752
Speaker 2: bit to deploy to Afghanistan. This is November twenty eleven.

405
00:20:23,472 --> 00:20:26,591
Speaker 2: But my first job was maanning the counter terrorism which

406
00:20:26,631 --> 00:20:30,032
Speaker 2: is you know, the critical response requirement in Australia and

407
00:20:30,792 --> 00:20:33,672
Speaker 2: these trips come up and we need to provide protective

408
00:20:33,712 --> 00:20:37,071
Speaker 2: security detachments. And given that she is the Prime Minister,

409
00:20:37,151 --> 00:20:39,351
Speaker 2: she had to attend all these very high level security

410
00:20:39,391 --> 00:20:44,351
Speaker 2: meetings and also the great diplomatic opportunity there is being

411
00:20:44,391 --> 00:20:47,471
Speaker 2: with her and having the conversations that are needed, you know,

412
00:20:47,631 --> 00:20:50,511
Speaker 2: to help our own equities and others. You know, it

413
00:20:50,552 --> 00:20:52,951
Speaker 2: was put forward that I should be her personal security officer.

414
00:20:53,032 --> 00:20:56,192
Speaker 2: Apparently I was a quite jovial, good looking person in uniform.

415
00:20:57,311 --> 00:20:59,552
Speaker 3: Yes, and you.

416
00:20:59,512 --> 00:21:02,232
Speaker 2: Can imagine straight away I just went straight back into

417
00:21:02,272 --> 00:21:06,152
Speaker 2: that inferiority complex and that imposter syndrome. It's like, Holy cow,

418
00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:09,951
Speaker 2: this is our national nation's leader. I haven't been Afghanistan beforehand,

419
00:21:09,992 --> 00:21:13,631
Speaker 2: you know, surely I should have some deployments and experience,

420
00:21:13,671 --> 00:21:15,472
Speaker 2: But again it comes down to what are the specific

421
00:21:15,512 --> 00:21:18,511
Speaker 2: skills and drills you require for that. I'm one person

422
00:21:18,591 --> 00:21:21,992
Speaker 2: within a protective team and then a whole security architecture

423
00:21:21,992 --> 00:21:24,511
Speaker 2: around that. My job has just been an expert in

424
00:21:24,591 --> 00:21:27,631
Speaker 2: my job, focusing on her and doing what's required there.

425
00:21:27,671 --> 00:21:32,111
Speaker 2: And it was really incredible. I left that deployment with

426
00:21:32,192 --> 00:21:37,151
Speaker 2: an excellent impression of Julia Gillard. Whereas previously just watching

427
00:21:37,151 --> 00:21:39,991
Speaker 2: on TV in all the politics, I did not I

428
00:21:40,032 --> 00:21:43,951
Speaker 2: saw very prepared speeches. I saw so much politics and

429
00:21:43,952 --> 00:21:45,672
Speaker 2: segues and all the rest. And I got to really

430
00:21:45,671 --> 00:21:49,792
Speaker 2: spend some personal one time with her, and the conversations

431
00:21:49,831 --> 00:21:52,751
Speaker 2: she openly had with me as well really helped me

432
00:21:52,792 --> 00:21:55,792
Speaker 2: to see so much of the natural leadership potential she had,

433
00:21:56,151 --> 00:21:58,671
Speaker 2: or the leadership potential, be it natural or not. And

434
00:21:58,752 --> 00:22:01,671
Speaker 2: it also made me quite you know, sympathetic to the

435
00:22:01,671 --> 00:22:03,871
Speaker 2: fact that she wasn't able to show a lot of

436
00:22:03,871 --> 00:22:06,952
Speaker 2: that just given the nature of politics and personally think

437
00:22:06,992 --> 00:22:10,511
Speaker 2: that is one of the saddest revelations is that you know,

438
00:22:10,631 --> 00:22:14,711
Speaker 2: someone like her was not able to truly shigne with

439
00:22:14,792 --> 00:22:17,351
Speaker 2: all the skills that I have seen. And I say

440
00:22:17,351 --> 00:22:19,952
Speaker 2: that now coming from someone who's been responsible for selecting

441
00:22:19,992 --> 00:22:23,911
Speaker 2: and training special Forces soldiers and officers, you know there's

442
00:22:23,911 --> 00:22:26,871
Speaker 2: something wrong with our system where you know, politics takes

443
00:22:26,911 --> 00:22:28,512
Speaker 2: precedence over real leadership.

444
00:22:28,752 --> 00:22:31,272
Speaker 1: Can you take me to your first tour of Afghanistan,

445
00:22:31,391 --> 00:22:34,111
Speaker 1: not as Julia Gillard's personal bodyguard, but when you do

446
00:22:34,311 --> 00:22:39,271
Speaker 1: go with November Platoon and you are in Afghanistan? What

447
00:22:39,431 --> 00:22:43,151
Speaker 1: is that like on the ground. When I envision what

448
00:22:43,272 --> 00:22:45,911
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm only piecing together things that I've seen

449
00:22:45,992 --> 00:22:49,751
Speaker 1: in news footage or from movies, and you know, it

450
00:22:49,911 --> 00:22:55,672
Speaker 1: feels very scary and very dusty, and the enemy can

451
00:22:55,712 --> 00:22:58,071
Speaker 1: also look like a civilian, and the civilian can look

452
00:22:58,151 --> 00:23:01,311
Speaker 1: like the enemy. Like it seems like a really confusing place.

453
00:23:01,512 --> 00:23:05,231
Speaker 1: And you know when you're talking about an enemy that

454
00:23:05,351 --> 00:23:07,232
Speaker 1: is not organized in the world way that a traditional

455
00:23:07,391 --> 00:23:10,632
Speaker 1: enemy is organized too, So you're not fighting on a front. Essentially,

456
00:23:10,671 --> 00:23:13,712
Speaker 1: it could be around any corner. Tell me what that's

457
00:23:13,792 --> 00:23:15,911
Speaker 1: like to step into that for the first time.

458
00:23:16,431 --> 00:23:19,992
Speaker 2: Yeah, surreal, very surreal, is the best explanation I can give.

459
00:23:20,792 --> 00:23:25,111
Speaker 2: You do so much training and preparation, and particularly in

460
00:23:25,151 --> 00:23:27,111
Speaker 2: the role of special forces over there, you know, we

461
00:23:27,151 --> 00:23:30,991
Speaker 2: went out hunting bad people. We were watching them with

462
00:23:31,151 --> 00:23:33,631
Speaker 2: assets in the sky and working with all sorts of

463
00:23:33,631 --> 00:23:36,632
Speaker 2: three letter agencies to track them from mobile phones, through

464
00:23:36,671 --> 00:23:39,192
Speaker 2: the satellites, through all the rest. So you really had

465
00:23:39,192 --> 00:23:41,191
Speaker 2: a great picture of who you were going after and

466
00:23:41,232 --> 00:23:44,471
Speaker 2: why you're going after them, and what they're likely reactions

467
00:23:44,552 --> 00:23:47,552
Speaker 2: or actions may be. But in particular, Claire, there was

468
00:23:47,591 --> 00:23:51,671
Speaker 2: you know that threat of IED's improvised explosive devices about

469
00:23:51,792 --> 00:23:54,791
Speaker 2: you know, the enemy beneath the ground that could you know,

470
00:23:54,831 --> 00:23:57,272
Speaker 2: be activated by a child, you know, that could be

471
00:23:57,431 --> 00:24:00,952
Speaker 2: detonated by someone's phone. That we couldn't detect them all

472
00:24:01,192 --> 00:24:04,631
Speaker 2: because they were moving metal from the press switches. And yeah,

473
00:24:04,671 --> 00:24:09,552
Speaker 2: it's living with this sense of paranoia wherever you step, like,

474
00:24:09,591 --> 00:24:12,751
Speaker 2: wherever you step, you know, could be an explosion. And

475
00:24:12,792 --> 00:24:15,231
Speaker 2: in particular, I guess our mindset was not wanting to

476
00:24:15,351 --> 00:24:17,191
Speaker 2: harm others and making sure you're.

477
00:24:17,032 --> 00:24:19,311
Speaker 3: Doing right by your own skills and drills.

478
00:24:19,831 --> 00:24:21,831
Speaker 2: And then at the same time, you know, going after

479
00:24:21,911 --> 00:24:25,431
Speaker 2: these targets that were also happily putting themselves right in

480
00:24:25,431 --> 00:24:27,871
Speaker 2: the middle of villages filled with women and children and

481
00:24:27,911 --> 00:24:30,391
Speaker 2: all the rest, and you just have to be so

482
00:24:31,512 --> 00:24:35,351
Speaker 2: on the ball. You know, even shooting your personal weapon system,

483
00:24:35,391 --> 00:24:38,271
Speaker 2: you would only shoot in those close proximities when you

484
00:24:38,351 --> 00:24:41,631
Speaker 2: literally had the site on someone and you if the

485
00:24:41,671 --> 00:24:44,431
Speaker 2: bullet went through them, where it would hit behind, to

486
00:24:44,472 --> 00:24:47,712
Speaker 2: make sure it didn't injure someone else, as civilian or whatnot.

487
00:24:48,272 --> 00:24:52,831
Speaker 2: It just brought on this hyper sense of vigilance. You know,

488
00:24:52,831 --> 00:24:56,231
Speaker 2: we talk about hypervigilance as a military thing, but it

489
00:24:56,272 --> 00:24:59,391
Speaker 2: was pretty incredible, particularly from a mental health perspective with

490
00:24:59,472 --> 00:25:03,792
Speaker 2: hindsight looking back, living in the moment. I've never lived

491
00:25:03,992 --> 00:25:06,952
Speaker 2: so much in the moment in my life, and it's

492
00:25:06,992 --> 00:25:10,272
Speaker 2: a pretty incredible place to be from your own mental

493
00:25:10,311 --> 00:25:14,631
Speaker 2: capabilities and physical capabilities, to be so physically, mentally and

494
00:25:14,631 --> 00:25:18,631
Speaker 2: emotionally focused into that moment and on such a rapid

495
00:25:18,671 --> 00:25:22,591
Speaker 2: repetition through all the missions that we conducted. And while

496
00:25:22,631 --> 00:25:26,391
Speaker 2: those first missions were extremely surreal, you kind of warm

497
00:25:26,552 --> 00:25:28,831
Speaker 2: up into it pretty quickly because you're also there. You're

498
00:25:28,831 --> 00:25:30,911
Speaker 2: not there alone, You're there with a lot of people,

499
00:25:31,071 --> 00:25:34,911
Speaker 2: and I particularly remember that first mission again, just so

500
00:25:35,071 --> 00:25:36,872
Speaker 2: afraid that I was going to stumble over and look

501
00:25:36,911 --> 00:25:38,552
Speaker 2: like an idiot in front of my guys or whatever.

502
00:25:39,192 --> 00:25:42,591
Speaker 2: You kind of draw strength from that team. You just

503
00:25:42,712 --> 00:25:47,512
Speaker 2: know that you've trained and prepared together so well, and

504
00:25:47,552 --> 00:25:49,911
Speaker 2: you truly trust.

505
00:25:49,552 --> 00:25:50,631
Speaker 3: These people with your life.

506
00:25:51,111 --> 00:25:54,751
Speaker 2: It's again, I have great conversations as my psychologists these days.

507
00:25:55,111 --> 00:25:57,431
Speaker 2: Some of the biggest struggles in transitioning. I've realizing that

508
00:25:57,431 --> 00:25:58,671
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people out there who are

509
00:25:58,671 --> 00:26:01,071
Speaker 2: willing to have your back as much as someone like

510
00:26:01,111 --> 00:26:05,032
Speaker 2: me is willing to have theirs, and the extreme comfort

511
00:26:05,111 --> 00:26:07,672
Speaker 2: and confidence that comes from having that trust that these

512
00:26:07,712 --> 00:26:11,032
Speaker 2: people you're with will just have your back to the

513
00:26:11,071 --> 00:26:12,871
Speaker 2: point of giving up their life if they need to

514
00:26:12,911 --> 00:26:15,912
Speaker 2: renew the same, just allowing you to then bring all

515
00:26:15,911 --> 00:26:18,471
Speaker 2: that presence forward into what you need to do. And

516
00:26:18,552 --> 00:26:21,631
Speaker 2: being so well skilled, drilled, equipped, and supported in what

517
00:26:21,631 --> 00:26:25,032
Speaker 2: we were doing. I talk about Maslow's hierarc of needs

518
00:26:25,071 --> 00:26:27,911
Speaker 2: being that self actualization, and I call it that state

519
00:26:27,952 --> 00:26:30,831
Speaker 2: of flow. I've never felt so aligned in what I've

520
00:26:30,831 --> 00:26:33,351
Speaker 2: been doing and so present, brought on by the stresses

521
00:26:33,351 --> 00:26:36,752
Speaker 2: of those and unique circumstances of those situations.

522
00:26:38,192 --> 00:26:40,231
Speaker 1: You talk quite a bit about mental health these days,

523
00:26:40,351 --> 00:26:42,511
Speaker 1: and not just of your own, bit of your fellow

524
00:26:43,151 --> 00:26:46,431
Speaker 1: members who have served. But I'd really like to just

525
00:26:46,512 --> 00:26:50,751
Speaker 1: touch on a couple of points that I wonder what

526
00:26:50,792 --> 00:26:53,431
Speaker 1: your mental health is like in the aftermath of And

527
00:26:53,472 --> 00:26:57,271
Speaker 1: the first is losing a colleague while you're serving. So

528
00:26:57,671 --> 00:27:00,591
Speaker 1: you've spoken about one of your men who stepped on

529
00:27:00,631 --> 00:27:05,351
Speaker 1: an ied in a doorway in a village, and you

530
00:27:05,351 --> 00:27:08,552
Speaker 1: go into like a fair bit of detail about how

531
00:27:08,591 --> 00:27:12,711
Speaker 1: he essentially exploded into a thousand pieces in front of you,

532
00:27:12,831 --> 00:27:16,711
Speaker 1: and it's like, what, like, how do you how do

533
00:27:16,792 --> 00:27:20,511
Speaker 1: you even compartmentalize or even process that.

534
00:27:21,192 --> 00:27:24,871
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really great question because, like I said,

535
00:27:24,871 --> 00:27:26,711
Speaker 2: did before this, I've been writing my own book the

536
00:27:26,752 --> 00:27:28,831
Speaker 2: last four years, and one of those chapters I go

537
00:27:28,911 --> 00:27:32,552
Speaker 2: into great detail about the death of Scott James Smith,

538
00:27:32,631 --> 00:27:36,431
Speaker 2: who died on the twenty first October twenty twelve. And

539
00:27:36,472 --> 00:27:38,272
Speaker 2: it was in writing that chapter where I go into

540
00:27:38,311 --> 00:27:41,951
Speaker 2: just such granular detail about you know, he was killed,

541
00:27:42,032 --> 00:27:44,351
Speaker 2: he was blown up into a thousand pieces over three

542
00:27:44,431 --> 00:27:47,191
Speaker 2: hundred meters, and you know, at that same time the

543
00:27:47,311 --> 00:27:49,791
Speaker 2: enemy attacked, because this giant plume of dust went up

544
00:27:49,831 --> 00:27:53,552
Speaker 2: and you know, there were the burliest alpha male commandos

545
00:27:53,671 --> 00:27:56,751
Speaker 2: up there fighting to keep the enemy back, while the

546
00:27:56,752 --> 00:27:59,751
Speaker 2: other half were on their hands and knees with the

547
00:27:59,752 --> 00:28:02,191
Speaker 2: most tender hands picking up every little piece of Scott,

548
00:28:02,311 --> 00:28:04,631
Speaker 2: from you know, a limb to a little five cent

549
00:28:05,232 --> 00:28:07,951
Speaker 2: piece of coin size. And I gave that chapter to

550
00:28:07,992 --> 00:28:10,711
Speaker 2: his mother, Katrina and asked her permission to publish it.

551
00:28:11,391 --> 00:28:14,032
Speaker 2: And she got back to me and she said, thank you.

552
00:28:14,192 --> 00:28:17,151
Speaker 2: This has helped me to heal. They told me, you

553
00:28:17,151 --> 00:28:19,752
Speaker 2: know that Scott died instantly, and you know he didn't

554
00:28:19,752 --> 00:28:22,631
Speaker 2: feel anything. But I've always wanted to ask more, but

555
00:28:22,671 --> 00:28:24,351
Speaker 2: I've always been too afraid to ask any of you

556
00:28:24,391 --> 00:28:26,511
Speaker 2: that were there, because they never wanted to retraumatize you.

557
00:28:27,071 --> 00:28:28,871
Speaker 2: And she's like, this has helped me to heal. And

558
00:28:28,911 --> 00:28:32,191
Speaker 2: so many other Australians need to read this because we

559
00:28:32,311 --> 00:28:36,871
Speaker 2: too easily not glorify, but perhaps romanticize or gloss over

560
00:28:37,071 --> 00:28:38,751
Speaker 2: the loss of life.

561
00:28:38,911 --> 00:28:41,232
Speaker 3: But it's devastating.

562
00:28:41,431 --> 00:28:45,792
Speaker 2: It's incredible to just see what can be done to

563
00:28:45,832 --> 00:28:48,112
Speaker 2: a person that does not deserve to die that way.

564
00:28:48,752 --> 00:28:51,792
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it's so incredible to also

565
00:28:51,832 --> 00:28:55,072
Speaker 2: be so inspired by someone that it has happened to

566
00:28:56,032 --> 00:28:59,032
Speaker 2: in the line of service, doing what they wanted to

567
00:28:59,072 --> 00:29:00,671
Speaker 2: do with the people they wanted to do, for a

568
00:29:00,671 --> 00:29:04,911
Speaker 2: purpose they so believed in. And also just reflecting on

569
00:29:04,952 --> 00:29:08,911
Speaker 2: the incredible emotions I remember when Scott died. I felt angry,

570
00:29:08,992 --> 00:29:11,832
Speaker 2: and then immediately I felt failure because I was his commander,

571
00:29:12,032 --> 00:29:15,032
Speaker 2: you know, I was meant to bring him home, even

572
00:29:15,392 --> 00:29:16,312
Speaker 2: if we were around the.

573
00:29:16,232 --> 00:29:19,312
Speaker 3: Same age and all the rest, you know. And I

574
00:29:19,352 --> 00:29:19,832
Speaker 3: carry that.

575
00:29:19,752 --> 00:29:22,232
Speaker 2: For me such a long time, and it's only through

576
00:29:22,832 --> 00:29:26,032
Speaker 2: friends and family and again staying close to and linking

577
00:29:26,112 --> 00:29:27,872
Speaker 2: in the Scott's family that I've been able to heal

578
00:29:27,952 --> 00:29:28,592
Speaker 2: that myself.

579
00:29:28,872 --> 00:29:30,712
Speaker 1: Well, then, of course there's the flip side to that too,

580
00:29:30,792 --> 00:29:33,671
Speaker 1: because whilst you are all putting your lives on the line,

581
00:29:34,592 --> 00:29:38,112
Speaker 1: there are Afghanistani people who were doing exactly the same.

582
00:29:38,832 --> 00:29:42,072
Speaker 1: First of all, like, how do you, in that moment,

583
00:29:42,272 --> 00:29:46,472
Speaker 1: especially the first time, make that decision to take somebody's life.

584
00:29:47,072 --> 00:29:49,832
Speaker 1: And then secondly, I'd really like to know, and this

585
00:29:49,872 --> 00:29:53,112
Speaker 1: is something I think a lot of US civilians don't understand,

586
00:29:53,312 --> 00:29:55,592
Speaker 1: is the accountability of that.

587
00:29:56,112 --> 00:29:56,552
Speaker 3: For sure.

588
00:29:56,911 --> 00:30:00,472
Speaker 2: I guess you know one thing about going up against people,

589
00:30:00,512 --> 00:30:02,511
Speaker 2: and like you said, the Afghans, you know, feeling like

590
00:30:02,552 --> 00:30:05,112
Speaker 2: that they're defending their lands as well. I mean very specifically,

591
00:30:05,112 --> 00:30:08,112
Speaker 2: we were targeting insurgents and terrorists networks there as the

592
00:30:08,112 --> 00:30:11,231
Speaker 2: special forces, but you would definitely encounter perhaps some locals

593
00:30:11,232 --> 00:30:14,112
Speaker 2: who are trying to defend themselves. But in particular we

594
00:30:14,152 --> 00:30:17,152
Speaker 2: go into places where taliban or insurgents had gone in

595
00:30:17,552 --> 00:30:20,712
Speaker 2: and were actually kind of not holding the locals hostage,

596
00:30:20,752 --> 00:30:23,992
Speaker 2: but pretty much you know, dictating to them what could

597
00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:26,951
Speaker 2: or couldn't be done. And particularly when we would go

598
00:30:26,992 --> 00:30:30,032
Speaker 2: on target, we'd always go on target with our Afghan

599
00:30:30,072 --> 00:30:32,032
Speaker 2: partner force, so we had to go on every mission

600
00:30:32,072 --> 00:30:35,032
Speaker 2: with a group of Afghan special police, and straight away

601
00:30:35,072 --> 00:30:37,231
Speaker 2: they were the incredible ones who could speak to the locals,

602
00:30:37,232 --> 00:30:39,352
Speaker 2: and the locals straight away would be giving up who's

603
00:30:39,392 --> 00:30:39,832
Speaker 2: not meant to.

604
00:30:39,832 --> 00:30:41,392
Speaker 3: Be here, and where they are and where all their

605
00:30:41,512 --> 00:30:42,112
Speaker 3: equipment is.

606
00:30:42,152 --> 00:30:45,471
Speaker 2: So it's really so much of this narrative that the

607
00:30:45,472 --> 00:30:47,232
Speaker 2: public doesn't get to hear about that part of this

608
00:30:47,312 --> 00:30:48,872
Speaker 2: storytelling is part of that process.

609
00:30:49,192 --> 00:30:50,872
Speaker 3: And then it's this battle of wills.

610
00:30:50,992 --> 00:30:52,952
Speaker 2: Like you said, we're there to do a job, and

611
00:30:53,032 --> 00:30:55,352
Speaker 2: even the insurgents and terrorists and all that they are

612
00:30:55,472 --> 00:30:58,312
Speaker 2: fully ideological into that they are doing the right thing.

613
00:30:58,352 --> 00:31:00,032
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, it's a contest of

614
00:31:00,072 --> 00:31:03,112
Speaker 2: wills and you just have to be so focused on

615
00:31:03,152 --> 00:31:05,711
Speaker 2: your mission. And when it comes to the taking of life,

616
00:31:06,352 --> 00:31:08,152
Speaker 2: nine times out of ten, the focus wasn't to go

617
00:31:08,192 --> 00:31:10,632
Speaker 2: in there and kill them, unless unless it was a

618
00:31:10,632 --> 00:31:13,592
Speaker 2: specific job, but it was to achieve the mission. And

619
00:31:14,032 --> 00:31:18,232
Speaker 2: the taking of life came from a circumstance of protecting life,

620
00:31:18,232 --> 00:31:21,792
Speaker 2: protecting each other, protecting your own. You know, we were

621
00:31:21,832 --> 00:31:24,392
Speaker 2: really restricted to be honest in our rules of engagement

622
00:31:24,392 --> 00:31:26,112
Speaker 2: to the point of I remember the first time I

623
00:31:26,112 --> 00:31:28,392
Speaker 2: had to kill someone, I probably let it go a

624
00:31:28,431 --> 00:31:31,312
Speaker 2: bit for longer, to a point where he started pointing

625
00:31:31,312 --> 00:31:35,112
Speaker 2: his weapon at some of our friendly forces, and so

626
00:31:35,232 --> 00:31:38,632
Speaker 2: as I was fully legally justified and pulling the trigger

627
00:31:38,671 --> 00:31:39,552
Speaker 2: and taking his life.

628
00:31:39,552 --> 00:31:41,312
Speaker 3: And again that was just part of the mission.

629
00:31:41,952 --> 00:31:47,392
Speaker 2: So it's really fascinating because there are so many elements

630
00:31:47,431 --> 00:31:51,312
Speaker 2: to doubt and hesitate throughout combat. It's not while you

631
00:31:51,352 --> 00:31:53,272
Speaker 2: think you're out there, you know, it's so easy to

632
00:31:53,352 --> 00:31:56,951
Speaker 2: potentially take everyone's life. There are assets and drones and

633
00:31:56,992 --> 00:31:59,671
Speaker 2: satellites all overhead filming everything that we're doing. Through to

634
00:31:59,872 --> 00:32:02,711
Speaker 2: helmet cameras and everything else in between. Then there's just

635
00:32:02,752 --> 00:32:07,191
Speaker 2: a whole moral and ethical part of the training and

636
00:32:07,232 --> 00:32:11,432
Speaker 2: preparation that goes into us before we deploy. Probably quite

637
00:32:11,472 --> 00:32:13,272
Speaker 2: different for me, but I got to see it very

638
00:32:13,352 --> 00:32:17,431
Speaker 2: viscerally on the ground where most of my soldiers had family.

639
00:32:17,632 --> 00:32:19,552
Speaker 2: Let's say at least half, if not two thirds, of

640
00:32:19,592 --> 00:32:22,352
Speaker 2: my soldiers were married, most of the half of them

641
00:32:22,392 --> 00:32:26,032
Speaker 2: had kids of their own, and really felt and attached

642
00:32:26,072 --> 00:32:29,872
Speaker 2: themselves to the fact that these were other human beings,

643
00:32:29,911 --> 00:32:32,991
Speaker 2: other families as well. I remember, in particular, there was

644
00:32:33,032 --> 00:32:36,392
Speaker 2: one engagement we had where an American tank went through

645
00:32:36,431 --> 00:32:39,711
Speaker 2: this building and knocked down all the rubble, and this

646
00:32:39,832 --> 00:32:42,592
Speaker 2: mother was screaming because her child was under there. And

647
00:32:42,632 --> 00:32:45,312
Speaker 2: straight away I just watched my guys drop their equipment,

648
00:32:45,431 --> 00:32:48,912
Speaker 2: completely lose their own safety posture, and get in there

649
00:32:48,911 --> 00:32:51,552
Speaker 2: and dig out this child. And so fortunately he was

650
00:32:51,592 --> 00:32:54,392
Speaker 2: just sitting there under this gap in the rubble, smiling up,

651
00:32:54,472 --> 00:32:56,911
Speaker 2: no worries at all. But I just really got to

652
00:32:56,952 --> 00:32:58,872
Speaker 2: see and straight away I'm like, no, what you're doing

653
00:32:58,872 --> 00:33:00,511
Speaker 2: with a job to do, but straight away like they

654
00:33:00,552 --> 00:33:04,671
Speaker 2: were dads and just seeing this, you know, seeing this

655
00:33:04,792 --> 00:33:07,312
Speaker 2: human side of them cut through all all this super

656
00:33:07,352 --> 00:33:09,312
Speaker 2: hard conditioning, special Forces training.

657
00:33:09,352 --> 00:33:10,512
Speaker 3: You know, it could have been a trap.

658
00:33:10,592 --> 00:33:12,792
Speaker 2: You know, there were all sorts of things that people

659
00:33:12,792 --> 00:33:14,032
Speaker 2: had played on us beforehand.

660
00:33:14,472 --> 00:33:15,991
Speaker 3: The building could have had an ID in it.

661
00:33:16,032 --> 00:33:18,911
Speaker 2: Who knows. They didn't care. They cared more about that

662
00:33:18,992 --> 00:33:21,072
Speaker 2: child than they did for their own safety. And that's

663
00:33:21,112 --> 00:33:22,752
Speaker 2: the sort of people you deployed with.

664
00:33:23,512 --> 00:33:26,952
Speaker 1: You spent sixteen years serving and you've served in Afghanistan

665
00:33:27,152 --> 00:33:30,912
Speaker 1: and in Iraq, but you do decide in twenty nineteen

666
00:33:31,192 --> 00:33:34,751
Speaker 1: to retire, Like what brought you to that decision and

667
00:33:34,792 --> 00:33:36,911
Speaker 1: what was that like for you to transition back to

668
00:33:37,032 --> 00:33:38,671
Speaker 1: civilian life for sure?

669
00:33:38,752 --> 00:33:42,752
Speaker 2: Well, twenty sixteen, seventeen, I deployed to Iraq. That was

670
00:33:42,792 --> 00:33:45,312
Speaker 2: my last deployment in our fight against ISIS, and most

671
00:33:45,352 --> 00:33:48,232
Speaker 2: of the public doesn't even know we deployed Special Forces

672
00:33:48,232 --> 00:33:50,752
Speaker 2: personnel to that, But that was incredible. We were fighting

673
00:33:51,232 --> 00:33:55,232
Speaker 2: evil people who were doing terrible things to children and

674
00:33:54,552 --> 00:33:59,552
Speaker 2: just evil. I never felt so justified in war against

675
00:33:59,592 --> 00:34:02,312
Speaker 2: a group of people in my life. At the same time,

676
00:34:02,352 --> 00:34:04,711
Speaker 2: I was over there with someone who was going to

677
00:34:04,712 --> 00:34:07,272
Speaker 2: come back and be the future leader of Special Forces,

678
00:34:07,312 --> 00:34:10,511
Speaker 2: who I just saw as being narcissistic, arrogant, and an

679
00:34:10,552 --> 00:34:13,512
Speaker 2: absolutely toxic leader, and I got to work very closely

680
00:34:13,552 --> 00:34:16,312
Speaker 2: with him, and on that deployment, I was actually dating,

681
00:34:16,471 --> 00:34:18,872
Speaker 2: and I was actually I had a boyfriend, Blake, back

682
00:34:18,911 --> 00:34:21,951
Speaker 2: in LA and unlike every other deployment I'd been on,

683
00:34:22,431 --> 00:34:25,951
Speaker 2: I was in love with someone back home. And while

684
00:34:25,991 --> 00:34:27,911
Speaker 2: I felt very accomplished in what we were doing, I

685
00:34:27,991 --> 00:34:31,591
Speaker 2: became disillusioned in my senior leadership. I became very disillusioned

686
00:34:31,632 --> 00:34:34,471
Speaker 2: in the Australian leadership because I was primarily operating under

687
00:34:34,471 --> 00:34:37,591
Speaker 2: the US leadership and got to see just how much

688
00:34:38,352 --> 00:34:40,272
Speaker 2: more confident they were in backing their people on the

689
00:34:40,272 --> 00:34:43,552
Speaker 2: ground and removing politics from what needed to be done.

690
00:34:44,152 --> 00:34:46,711
Speaker 2: And I decided to come back and take my long

691
00:34:46,752 --> 00:34:50,872
Speaker 2: service leave, spend time with Blake, and really wanted to

692
00:34:50,911 --> 00:34:54,272
Speaker 2: instead pivot my life to focus on love and focus

693
00:34:54,272 --> 00:34:56,712
Speaker 2: on building us a life outside of the uncertainty of

694
00:34:56,712 --> 00:34:57,312
Speaker 2: the military.

695
00:34:57,752 --> 00:35:00,471
Speaker 1: I love that as much as it's like a big

696
00:35:00,511 --> 00:35:02,911
Speaker 1: transition for you. I love that love was the catalyst.

697
00:35:03,112 --> 00:35:08,151
Speaker 2: That's cool, But it was an interesting transition that identity

698
00:35:08,792 --> 00:35:12,631
Speaker 2: and failing to understand identity. And we touched on this

699
00:35:12,712 --> 00:35:17,352
Speaker 2: at the start, going from being a lost teenager to

700
00:35:17,511 --> 00:35:20,751
Speaker 2: having my identity and doctrinated into the military where put

701
00:35:20,832 --> 00:35:25,392
Speaker 2: service and team before yourself. So then accepting my sexuality

702
00:35:25,632 --> 00:35:30,392
Speaker 2: and then jumping into my first ever public relationship, and

703
00:35:30,431 --> 00:35:33,071
Speaker 2: then bringing a brand called Barry's Bootcam and being very

704
00:35:33,072 --> 00:35:35,792
Speaker 2: public in the media, and that to Sydney. I immediately

705
00:35:35,832 --> 00:35:40,072
Speaker 2: traded this secret identity of being a special Forces officer

706
00:35:40,072 --> 00:35:46,632
Speaker 2: in commando and military service and the values of selflessness, responsibility,

707
00:35:47,112 --> 00:35:53,111
Speaker 2: courage for a society which rapidly became about selfishness and entitlement.

708
00:35:53,192 --> 00:35:55,232
Speaker 2: And you know, you've got to represent yourself first or

709
00:35:55,272 --> 00:35:58,951
Speaker 2: people you know will pass you over. Through to defining

710
00:35:58,991 --> 00:36:02,111
Speaker 2: myself by the job that I did and the relationship

711
00:36:02,272 --> 00:36:05,631
Speaker 2: I was with and not appreciating that while I was

712
00:36:05,632 --> 00:36:10,151
Speaker 2: emotionally intelligent, I wasn't emotionally mature. I never had to

713
00:36:10,192 --> 00:36:13,792
Speaker 2: deal with emotions like jealousy. I never had to deal

714
00:36:13,872 --> 00:36:17,951
Speaker 2: with having to have vulnerable conversations about emotions that I

715
00:36:17,991 --> 00:36:21,152
Speaker 2: saw as weakness as opposed to growth opportunities.

716
00:36:21,232 --> 00:36:22,911
Speaker 1: You know, now you just had to be like one

717
00:36:22,911 --> 00:36:23,432
Speaker 1: of us.

718
00:36:23,431 --> 00:36:26,072
Speaker 2: Ah Well, I was so used to being the master

719
00:36:26,152 --> 00:36:29,392
Speaker 2: of my universe in life or death, combat situations and

720
00:36:29,431 --> 00:36:31,872
Speaker 2: everything else in between, and so used to being seen

721
00:36:32,551 --> 00:36:35,911
Speaker 2: as being an inspirational leader and being seen you know

722
00:36:35,991 --> 00:36:37,911
Speaker 2: as being you know, a leader, and all the rest

723
00:36:37,911 --> 00:36:41,552
Speaker 2: by my soldiers, and I put myself on a pedestal,

724
00:36:42,112 --> 00:36:46,111
Speaker 2: and I wasn't ready to remove myself from that and

725
00:36:46,152 --> 00:36:50,192
Speaker 2: face the realities of life that do not comply with

726
00:36:50,352 --> 00:36:51,591
Speaker 2: the extremes of life and death.

727
00:36:56,072 --> 00:36:58,952
Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Kestin what he was doing

728
00:36:59,072 --> 00:37:02,031
Speaker 1: on the day the ABC article about his alleged war

729
00:37:02,072 --> 00:37:09,592
Speaker 1: crimes was published, and what the impact was. It's twenty twenty.

730
00:37:10,031 --> 00:37:12,312
Speaker 1: Pandemic is upon us. But you wake up one morning

731
00:37:12,352 --> 00:37:16,471
Speaker 1: and your phone is blowing up. Yeah, talk me through

732
00:37:16,551 --> 00:37:19,352
Speaker 1: the day the ABC story dropped.

733
00:37:19,592 --> 00:37:22,991
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so it was the exact day, the eighth

734
00:37:23,031 --> 00:37:25,632
Speaker 2: anniversary of the day we lost Scott, the twenty first

735
00:37:25,632 --> 00:37:29,431
Speaker 2: of October twenty twenty. Now, when we got back from overseas,

736
00:37:29,712 --> 00:37:33,111
Speaker 2: we as a group met with Scott's mum. Scott's sister

737
00:37:33,192 --> 00:37:35,752
Speaker 2: went down and spread his ashes downwary at the lake

738
00:37:35,832 --> 00:37:39,992
Speaker 2: croister Ski as a kid. But we hadn't really seen

739
00:37:40,392 --> 00:37:43,151
Speaker 2: Scott's family since then, and on that day we'd all

740
00:37:43,192 --> 00:37:45,471
Speaker 2: planned to meet up again with his mum, Katrina at

741
00:37:45,511 --> 00:37:47,752
Speaker 2: the North Bond BRSL to all have dinner that night,

742
00:37:48,592 --> 00:37:51,551
Speaker 2: and it was that exact morning that I woke up to, Yeah,

743
00:37:51,632 --> 00:37:55,312
Speaker 2: my phone just buzzing off the table, and it was

744
00:37:55,352 --> 00:37:57,631
Speaker 2: messages from all my guys sending me this link to

745
00:37:57,632 --> 00:38:01,031
Speaker 2: this article where this journalist Mark Willison his mates had

746
00:38:01,031 --> 00:38:04,192
Speaker 2: published that this whole story that this essentially this marine

747
00:38:04,192 --> 00:38:07,272
Speaker 2: had heard a pop, which meant that we had and

748
00:38:07,312 --> 00:38:11,191
Speaker 2: it literally said November Platoon and I had executed this

749
00:38:13,112 --> 00:38:15,631
Speaker 2: bound prisoner that we had because it wouldn't fit on

750
00:38:15,672 --> 00:38:19,431
Speaker 2: a helicopter. And it was just incredible because you might

751
00:38:19,431 --> 00:38:22,272
Speaker 2: hear about a generic story about a unit or someone

752
00:38:22,312 --> 00:38:24,712
Speaker 2: in the military whatnot, but this had specifically, for the

753
00:38:24,712 --> 00:38:28,352
Speaker 2: first time in our nation's history, named a platoon November Platoon,

754
00:38:28,672 --> 00:38:31,152
Speaker 2: and that could only be thirty or forty people that

755
00:38:31,272 --> 00:38:34,631
Speaker 2: specific platoon in twenty twelve, and that was us and

756
00:38:34,672 --> 00:38:35,632
Speaker 2: I was the commander.

757
00:38:35,672 --> 00:38:38,112
Speaker 3: There was no one above me. I was November Alpha.

758
00:38:39,112 --> 00:38:42,951
Speaker 2: So it was so surreal and on that day you

759
00:38:43,192 --> 00:38:45,272
Speaker 2: just could imagine the emotions.

760
00:38:44,752 --> 00:38:45,552
Speaker 3: That flew through.

761
00:38:46,632 --> 00:38:49,392
Speaker 2: So I just said about I called the APC, left

762
00:38:49,392 --> 00:38:51,671
Speaker 2: two messages with them, and I just started reaching out

763
00:38:51,672 --> 00:38:54,631
Speaker 2: to some of my former commanders and waiting to hear

764
00:38:54,672 --> 00:38:57,232
Speaker 2: from someone from the Defense Public Affairs or someone to

765
00:38:57,272 --> 00:38:59,352
Speaker 2: jump onto this, but no.

766
00:38:59,272 --> 00:39:00,071
Speaker 3: One got back to me.

767
00:39:00,511 --> 00:39:04,071
Speaker 2: And that night, yeah, when I went and met with

768
00:39:04,112 --> 00:39:07,111
Speaker 2: the guys and met with Katrina Scott's mum, there so

769
00:39:07,152 --> 00:39:10,192
Speaker 2: many emotions, so many tears, so many people just like

770
00:39:10,232 --> 00:39:12,431
Speaker 2: what do we do about this? By this time, the

771
00:39:12,431 --> 00:39:14,872
Speaker 2: Burton report and inquiry had been dragging on, and it

772
00:39:15,031 --> 00:39:17,752
Speaker 2: really caused a lot of damage, bringing some of us

773
00:39:17,752 --> 00:39:19,752
Speaker 2: who had been out back in to show us some

774
00:39:19,792 --> 00:39:23,111
Speaker 2: pretty graphic stuff and try and interrogate us. And yeah,

775
00:39:23,112 --> 00:39:25,392
Speaker 2: a lot of people really emotionally bruised and damaged.

776
00:39:25,672 --> 00:39:28,431
Speaker 3: And that was kind of when I got given my

777
00:39:28,471 --> 00:39:28,992
Speaker 3: new mission.

778
00:39:29,312 --> 00:39:31,152
Speaker 2: You know, by this time, I'd broken up with Blake

779
00:39:31,192 --> 00:39:33,111
Speaker 2: at the very start of the pandemic, and I was

780
00:39:33,232 --> 00:39:36,551
Speaker 2: a bit isolated and alone. And next thing, this fight

781
00:39:36,712 --> 00:39:39,151
Speaker 2: came about. They were targeting my guys. And if there's

782
00:39:39,152 --> 00:39:41,712
Speaker 2: one thing you can't do, it's target them without dealing

783
00:39:41,752 --> 00:39:41,991
Speaker 2: with me.

784
00:39:42,392 --> 00:39:45,592
Speaker 3: So that set me off on the next five years.

785
00:39:45,951 --> 00:39:49,832
Speaker 1: So this unnamed marine who claims to have heard the

786
00:39:49,872 --> 00:39:53,511
Speaker 1: pop because the way it's supposedly unfolded. So, yeah, there's

787
00:39:53,511 --> 00:39:57,751
Speaker 1: a radio conversation where your guys on the ground say,

788
00:39:57,792 --> 00:40:02,072
Speaker 1: we've got seven prisoners who require transport. This unnamed person

789
00:40:02,152 --> 00:40:05,272
Speaker 1: said there was only room for six on the helicopter,

790
00:40:05,832 --> 00:40:08,072
Speaker 1: and then he he claims that he heard a pop,

791
00:40:08,312 --> 00:40:10,752
Speaker 1: and then the next radio transmission was, now we have

792
00:40:10,872 --> 00:40:15,471
Speaker 1: six prisoners to transport. And so his summation was that

793
00:40:16,072 --> 00:40:20,752
Speaker 1: Australian soldiers had just murdered a prisoner in order for

794
00:40:20,792 --> 00:40:22,631
Speaker 1: that to happen. But I'm really interested to know did you,

795
00:40:22,911 --> 00:40:26,392
Speaker 1: first of all, did you recognize this unnamed marine? Because

796
00:40:26,752 --> 00:40:29,392
Speaker 1: he eventually would do interviews with his face on show,

797
00:40:29,551 --> 00:40:31,751
Speaker 1: and I presume that you would have maybe got into

798
00:40:31,792 --> 00:40:34,111
Speaker 1: that helicopter with him. Did you know who this person was?

799
00:40:34,272 --> 00:40:35,431
Speaker 3: It was so incredible.

800
00:40:37,152 --> 00:40:39,152
Speaker 2: Shortly afterwards, the guys and I got together and we

801
00:40:39,192 --> 00:40:41,352
Speaker 2: wrote this ten page letter to the ABC that just

802
00:40:41,352 --> 00:40:44,232
Speaker 2: went line by line how impossible this is and if

803
00:40:44,232 --> 00:40:46,992
Speaker 2: everyone wants to see it heston russell dot com slash ABC.

804
00:40:47,152 --> 00:40:49,352
Speaker 2: I've literally made a page where I've kept a running

805
00:40:49,352 --> 00:40:50,951
Speaker 2: blog of this whole thing, just.

806
00:40:50,872 --> 00:40:52,631
Speaker 1: To give some idea. It's basically like, in order for

807
00:40:52,632 --> 00:40:55,071
Speaker 1: that to happen, someone's radio had to have been on

808
00:40:55,911 --> 00:40:58,551
Speaker 1: at the exact moment for it to be transmitted, and

809
00:40:58,712 --> 00:41:01,032
Speaker 1: that just wouldn't have happened that way, and the prisoners

810
00:41:01,031 --> 00:41:02,911
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been near the radio. Like there's a lot

811
00:41:02,951 --> 00:41:05,112
Speaker 1: of reasoning as to why that would have happened.

812
00:41:05,152 --> 00:41:08,031
Speaker 2: The only people who talked to the helicopters to come

813
00:41:08,072 --> 00:41:10,472
Speaker 2: in are either me, my signaler, or my jatach.

814
00:41:10,592 --> 00:41:11,432
Speaker 3: We all stay together.

815
00:41:11,832 --> 00:41:14,272
Speaker 2: We are never anywhere near prisoners because you don't want

816
00:41:14,272 --> 00:41:16,792
Speaker 2: them hearing what you're saying. Right the way through to

817
00:41:16,951 --> 00:41:19,031
Speaker 2: this guy said that he just watched us tackle and

818
00:41:19,072 --> 00:41:22,152
Speaker 2: hog tie them. It was a nighttime operation Hellman Province.

819
00:41:22,192 --> 00:41:23,951
Speaker 2: He said he was in a gunship, which means they

820
00:41:23,991 --> 00:41:26,551
Speaker 2: never land, so he's flying around at a couple of

821
00:41:26,592 --> 00:41:29,631
Speaker 2: thousand feet. How did he physically see that you can't

822
00:41:29,911 --> 00:41:31,991
Speaker 2: carry someone once you've hog tied them, like they're just

823
00:41:32,031 --> 00:41:34,752
Speaker 2: all these impracticalities to it. And then the kicker for

824
00:41:34,832 --> 00:41:37,471
Speaker 2: me was, you know, this was now twenty twenty when

825
00:41:37,511 --> 00:41:40,352
Speaker 2: the article was being published, so some eight years later

826
00:41:40,471 --> 00:41:44,112
Speaker 2: he had decided that that pop was us executing someone

827
00:41:44,152 --> 00:41:46,832
Speaker 2: and then he's decided to come forward. And the crazy

828
00:41:46,872 --> 00:41:48,792
Speaker 2: part for me was that the media was allowed to

829
00:41:48,792 --> 00:41:53,552
Speaker 2: publish this as one person's ear witness account ear witness

830
00:41:54,392 --> 00:41:58,152
Speaker 2: without having it met any form of criminal level of

831
00:41:58,192 --> 00:42:00,631
Speaker 2: evidence or investigation, like it should have been something there

832
00:42:00,672 --> 00:42:03,832
Speaker 2: was literally this Inspector General inquiry underway. It's something that

833
00:42:03,872 --> 00:42:06,872
Speaker 2: should have been turned over investigated. It's all just so

834
00:42:07,031 --> 00:42:11,991
Speaker 2: freely naming an entire platoon right there on that day.

835
00:42:12,232 --> 00:42:16,072
Speaker 2: And if they'd even done their research, like Scott Smith

836
00:42:16,152 --> 00:42:18,511
Speaker 2: was a member of a novemb platoon, you know, if

837
00:42:18,551 --> 00:42:20,511
Speaker 2: they'd done any of their research, they would realize, hey,

838
00:42:20,511 --> 00:42:23,872
Speaker 2: we're publishing this once in a lifetime accusation on the

839
00:42:23,911 --> 00:42:26,511
Speaker 2: anniversary of the death of the one guy from that

840
00:42:26,592 --> 00:42:31,072
Speaker 2: platoon during that deployment. It was just absolutely mind boggling

841
00:42:31,072 --> 00:42:34,591
Speaker 2: and as far as like my brain snapping, you could

842
00:42:34,632 --> 00:42:37,431
Speaker 2: just imagine the internal conflict I was going through.

843
00:42:38,072 --> 00:42:42,191
Speaker 1: Tell me about that trauma of having that story go live.

844
00:42:42,352 --> 00:42:47,072
Speaker 1: Because we are very aware about the sometimes fragile mental

845
00:42:47,112 --> 00:42:51,111
Speaker 1: health of veterans who observed, and that the suicide rate

846
00:42:51,152 --> 00:42:55,192
Speaker 1: for veterans is abysmally high. What does that do to

847
00:42:55,272 --> 00:42:59,911
Speaker 1: your team, to your men when allegations like that are printed, Like,

848
00:42:59,991 --> 00:43:02,392
Speaker 1: what's the immediate aftermath of that? For them?

849
00:43:02,792 --> 00:43:03,911
Speaker 3: It was? It was devastating.

850
00:43:03,951 --> 00:43:06,672
Speaker 2: It was like a bomb went off within our group,

851
00:43:07,272 --> 00:43:10,832
Speaker 2: where our entire career, that entire deployment is all done

852
00:43:10,911 --> 00:43:13,952
Speaker 2: outside of public knowledge. You know, you're not even allowed

853
00:43:13,991 --> 00:43:15,832
Speaker 2: to have a social media account in your name. We

854
00:43:15,872 --> 00:43:18,991
Speaker 2: have protected identity status. We do all these things in

855
00:43:19,031 --> 00:43:21,031
Speaker 2: the silence because it needs to be done. And part

856
00:43:21,031 --> 00:43:23,832
Speaker 2: of what we do is also saving people from knowing

857
00:43:23,872 --> 00:43:25,431
Speaker 2: some of the bad things that need to be done

858
00:43:25,471 --> 00:43:28,152
Speaker 2: in order to keep the world that we enjoy safe.

859
00:43:28,551 --> 00:43:31,152
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden for the only public record

860
00:43:31,232 --> 00:43:34,792
Speaker 2: about your platoon and your service to be the allegation

861
00:43:34,872 --> 00:43:37,951
Speaker 2: that you're a war criminal, you know, And as it

862
00:43:37,991 --> 00:43:40,232
Speaker 2: gained more and more media attraction, you know, I had

863
00:43:40,272 --> 00:43:42,752
Speaker 2: soldiers saying to me, Hey, my daughters came home from

864
00:43:42,752 --> 00:43:45,152
Speaker 2: school where this was discussed by her teacher and others,

865
00:43:45,872 --> 00:43:48,671
Speaker 2: and she said that that's my daddy's platoon, and little

866
00:43:48,752 --> 00:43:51,312
Speaker 2: kids were calling her dad a war criminal. You know,

867
00:43:51,471 --> 00:43:54,951
Speaker 2: children were having these conversations in schools. That's the slow

868
00:43:55,031 --> 00:43:57,911
Speaker 2: on effect right the way through to you know, even

869
00:43:57,951 --> 00:44:00,832
Speaker 2: some of my guys are applying for jobs in the

870
00:44:00,991 --> 00:44:03,472
Speaker 2: unstable life that often is the transition of a veteran,

871
00:44:03,511 --> 00:44:06,592
Speaker 2: and you know, they chose to remove their military service

872
00:44:06,632 --> 00:44:10,111
Speaker 2: and special Forces from being on their resume. They've never

873
00:44:10,152 --> 00:44:13,312
Speaker 2: been charged alone convictor's war criminals. But in the court

874
00:44:13,312 --> 00:44:17,632
Speaker 2: of public opinion, some journalists has callously published an earwitness

875
00:44:17,672 --> 00:44:20,672
Speaker 2: account of one person's fact without even interviewing a single

876
00:44:20,672 --> 00:44:23,591
Speaker 2: one of us who were there on the mission. You know,

877
00:44:23,672 --> 00:44:26,392
Speaker 2: it just sent these shockwaves where some people just did

878
00:44:26,392 --> 00:44:28,792
Speaker 2: not want to be associated with our service because the

879
00:44:28,832 --> 00:44:32,352
Speaker 2: only public record was that we were war criminals.

880
00:44:32,991 --> 00:44:35,671
Speaker 1: You've mentioned that you wrote to the ABC. You also

881
00:44:35,712 --> 00:44:37,832
Speaker 1: reached out to the ABC, but they weren't the only people,

882
00:44:37,872 --> 00:44:41,392
Speaker 1: you know. You reached out to your Department of Veteran Affairs,

883
00:44:41,471 --> 00:44:44,071
Speaker 1: the Defense Department. You wrote to Peter Dutton, who was

884
00:44:44,112 --> 00:44:46,511
Speaker 1: the Defense Minister at the time, So you've reached out

885
00:44:46,511 --> 00:44:49,471
Speaker 1: to lots of people in the aftermath of this. Did

886
00:44:49,511 --> 00:44:52,272
Speaker 1: anyone step up and support you in that moment.

887
00:44:52,632 --> 00:44:52,712
Speaker 3: No.

888
00:44:52,792 --> 00:44:57,952
Speaker 2: I submitted two complaints through their proper processes. We stepped

889
00:44:58,031 --> 00:45:00,832
Speaker 2: up a petition. They got twenty seven thousand signatures through

890
00:45:00,832 --> 00:45:05,472
Speaker 2: the Parliament. As far as anyone stepping up, Ben Fordham

891
00:45:05,471 --> 00:45:07,832
Speaker 2: in the media step for me massively, and some other

892
00:45:07,911 --> 00:45:10,111
Speaker 2: members in the media, but none quite like Ben did,

893
00:45:10,551 --> 00:45:13,511
Speaker 2: and it wasn't until finally I decided to take the

894
00:45:13,551 --> 00:45:17,352
Speaker 2: ABC to court for defamation, where I received some affidavits

895
00:45:18,112 --> 00:45:22,991
Speaker 2: from a few people, but unfortunately others, including the likes

896
00:45:22,991 --> 00:45:25,192
Speaker 2: of Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott, who I'd had on

897
00:45:25,232 --> 00:45:29,352
Speaker 2: my podcast beforehand, through to my former military commanders who

898
00:45:29,392 --> 00:45:33,111
Speaker 2: won Distinguished Service Medals for those same deployments, when none

899
00:45:33,152 --> 00:45:36,112
Speaker 2: of them were there when I asked for help going

900
00:45:36,152 --> 00:45:40,151
Speaker 2: into that fight, and I was to rapidly learn a

901
00:45:40,192 --> 00:45:42,511
Speaker 2: really heavy lesson that in Australia, to take on the

902
00:45:42,592 --> 00:45:46,511
Speaker 2: media is a fight too far for so many, just

903
00:45:46,551 --> 00:45:50,911
Speaker 2: given how much of a strong platform they have. You know,

904
00:45:50,951 --> 00:45:52,792
Speaker 2: if they decide to turn on you, they can so

905
00:45:52,911 --> 00:45:56,752
Speaker 2: easily destroy your life, which was so fascinating for me

906
00:45:56,832 --> 00:45:58,911
Speaker 2: because you know, I'd lived through combat, I lived through

907
00:45:58,911 --> 00:46:02,111
Speaker 2: real life and death. And even particularly for me, it

908
00:46:02,152 --> 00:46:04,471
Speaker 2: was my old military commanders who I turned to and

909
00:46:05,031 --> 00:46:07,631
Speaker 2: to see them worried more about their careers and their

910
00:46:07,632 --> 00:46:11,591
Speaker 2: families back home feel afraid to enter into this fight.

911
00:46:11,911 --> 00:46:14,192
Speaker 2: It was just so fascinating for me how it was

912
00:46:14,232 --> 00:46:17,951
Speaker 2: actually more dangerous for the life I wanted to live

913
00:46:18,031 --> 00:46:19,951
Speaker 2: back home to take up this fight than it was

914
00:46:19,951 --> 00:46:23,632
Speaker 2: to fight in actual combat, as they accused us of doing. Yeah,

915
00:46:23,752 --> 00:46:26,352
Speaker 2: it was just imagine just imagine that from if you can,

916
00:46:26,471 --> 00:46:30,352
Speaker 2: from what you've heard from me beforehand. The just incredible juxtaposition,

917
00:46:30,792 --> 00:46:33,832
Speaker 2: and you know, brain crack of these circumstances with.

918
00:46:33,991 --> 00:46:36,551
Speaker 1: Fighting for your life in such a different way.

919
00:46:36,712 --> 00:46:38,512
Speaker 3: And in combat.

920
00:46:38,511 --> 00:46:40,711
Speaker 2: I was so supported and so aligned and had such

921
00:46:40,752 --> 00:46:43,152
Speaker 2: a team, and you know, and then all of a sudden,

922
00:46:43,551 --> 00:46:47,392
Speaker 2: you know, to have none of those support anywhere when

923
00:46:47,431 --> 00:46:48,272
Speaker 2: you need it the most.

924
00:46:48,392 --> 00:46:51,752
Speaker 3: It was really, you know, sense of abandonment.

925
00:46:51,792 --> 00:46:53,832
Speaker 2: Talk to my psychologists about my sense of abandonments.

926
00:46:53,832 --> 00:46:54,431
Speaker 3: It's pretty big.

927
00:46:55,991 --> 00:46:58,632
Speaker 1: That is not something to laugh at, but that is funny.

928
00:46:58,872 --> 00:47:00,951
Speaker 2: If you can't laugh at yourself, what can you laugh at?

929
00:47:00,991 --> 00:47:04,392
Speaker 2: But it's all very true. I really had to work through.

930
00:47:04,431 --> 00:47:07,712
Speaker 2: And look, it's incredible. Were situations like this kind of

931
00:47:07,712 --> 00:47:10,551
Speaker 2: decloud your life as well, potentially to help you be

932
00:47:10,592 --> 00:47:12,471
Speaker 2: more efficient in your energy. But yeah, wow, it was

933
00:47:12,511 --> 00:47:16,872
Speaker 2: a very demoralizing, humbling and lonely time.

934
00:47:18,431 --> 00:47:20,551
Speaker 1: The reason you actually reached out to Peter Dutton was

935
00:47:20,712 --> 00:47:24,711
Speaker 1: really quite significant because you had realized that in some

936
00:47:24,752 --> 00:47:28,151
Speaker 1: of the reporting about this alleged war crime that the

937
00:47:28,192 --> 00:47:31,951
Speaker 1: facts were actually quite incorrect, and you could prove that

938
00:47:32,272 --> 00:47:35,272
Speaker 1: if you could get some documents released by the Defense

939
00:47:35,272 --> 00:47:37,951
Speaker 1: Department about your diploma. He took me through. When you

940
00:47:37,991 --> 00:47:39,911
Speaker 1: realize that things were not adding.

941
00:47:39,712 --> 00:47:41,152
Speaker 3: Up, Yeah, I pushed.

942
00:47:41,192 --> 00:47:43,431
Speaker 2: Every time the ABC released something, we got into this

943
00:47:43,471 --> 00:47:45,911
Speaker 2: bit of a back and forward, and every time they

944
00:47:45,951 --> 00:47:47,991
Speaker 2: released something trying to double down on their story, I

945
00:47:48,031 --> 00:47:50,431
Speaker 2: was able to pick it apart. And this one time

946
00:47:50,511 --> 00:47:53,712
Speaker 2: they overstepped. They overstepped so far, and they said that

947
00:47:54,511 --> 00:47:56,752
Speaker 2: they had put a request into the Defense Force for

948
00:47:56,792 --> 00:48:00,551
Speaker 2: a freedom of information request for the dates between June

949
00:48:00,592 --> 00:48:04,552
Speaker 2: and July twenty twelve quote when this incident occurred.

950
00:48:05,272 --> 00:48:07,952
Speaker 3: And straight away I'd dug up my old deployment.

951
00:48:07,511 --> 00:48:10,312
Speaker 2: Record, which showed that I didn't deploy with my platoon

952
00:48:10,511 --> 00:48:14,951
Speaker 2: until July, we didn't commence operations until August, and we

953
00:48:14,991 --> 00:48:17,832
Speaker 2: didn't go into Hellman Province where it was said this

954
00:48:17,872 --> 00:48:22,071
Speaker 2: incident occurred until September. And straight away I jumped on

955
00:48:22,072 --> 00:48:23,591
Speaker 2: this and I wrote to Peter Dutton and all I

956
00:48:23,632 --> 00:48:26,991
Speaker 2: just said, you know, can you please make my deployment

957
00:48:27,112 --> 00:48:29,592
Speaker 2: order public for once and for all we can prove

958
00:48:29,832 --> 00:48:34,392
Speaker 2: you know how wrong they are. And yeah, thirty days later,

959
00:48:34,431 --> 00:48:36,551
Speaker 2: as per the ministry or requirement. He wrote back to

960
00:48:36,592 --> 00:48:39,272
Speaker 2: me with a lovely hands salutator late letter saying, you know,

961
00:48:39,312 --> 00:48:41,792
Speaker 2: I've always thought our veterans deserve more respect and if

962
00:48:41,832 --> 00:48:44,832
Speaker 2: you need help, including mental health or welfare support, here's

963
00:48:44,872 --> 00:48:48,352
Speaker 2: the welfare hotline. So instead I took to my social

964
00:48:48,392 --> 00:48:52,431
Speaker 2: media and very quickly the ABC changed their article and

965
00:48:52,511 --> 00:48:56,431
Speaker 2: said during twenty twelve and wrote a little footnote that

966
00:48:56,551 --> 00:48:58,911
Speaker 2: was a complete lie to the public. And that was

967
00:48:58,951 --> 00:49:02,552
Speaker 2: a point where I was like, Wow, this isn't about facts,

968
00:49:02,632 --> 00:49:05,752
Speaker 2: This isn't about truth. This is about winning this now

969
00:49:05,792 --> 00:49:10,832
Speaker 2: public art. And the person who is a minister responsible

970
00:49:10,832 --> 00:49:12,631
Speaker 2: for me and my soldiers, who could have helped end

971
00:49:12,632 --> 00:49:14,792
Speaker 2: this in a single stroke of a pen, is not

972
00:49:14,832 --> 00:49:15,551
Speaker 2: even willing.

973
00:49:15,272 --> 00:49:15,832
Speaker 3: To enter into this.

974
00:49:15,911 --> 00:49:19,312
Speaker 1: Fray taught me through some of the other allegations that

975
00:49:19,431 --> 00:49:24,672
Speaker 1: were put up against you, one which was very easily

976
00:49:25,072 --> 00:49:28,511
Speaker 1: refuted after you showed extra footage from a helmet cam,

977
00:49:29,272 --> 00:49:34,192
Speaker 1: and another which included men under your charge who supposedly

978
00:49:34,832 --> 00:49:37,671
Speaker 1: murdered prisoners. Can you just set me through those allegations

979
00:49:37,752 --> 00:49:41,872
Speaker 1: and why you were able to show that they were

980
00:49:41,911 --> 00:49:42,271
Speaker 1: not true?

981
00:49:42,632 --> 00:49:46,592
Speaker 2: Absolutely so, during my court case, the ABC quickly published

982
00:49:46,592 --> 00:49:48,991
Speaker 2: this follow on story that said they had footage of

983
00:49:48,991 --> 00:49:51,592
Speaker 2: a commando shooting at armed civilians out of a helicopter,

984
00:49:52,192 --> 00:49:54,312
Speaker 2: and it was from fifteen seconds worth of footage they

985
00:49:54,672 --> 00:49:57,272
Speaker 2: received from an end of trip video. Now, because it

986
00:49:57,312 --> 00:49:58,991
Speaker 2: was during my court case, I had to sit on it.

987
00:49:58,991 --> 00:50:01,111
Speaker 2: But my legal team wrote to them and said, hey, One,

988
00:50:01,832 --> 00:50:03,711
Speaker 2: well they said it was me, So they said, one,

989
00:50:03,752 --> 00:50:06,312
Speaker 2: it's not our client. Two, they're not to unarmed civilians.

990
00:50:06,511 --> 00:50:09,352
Speaker 2: Three why have you edited this footage to add extra

991
00:50:09,352 --> 00:50:11,991
Speaker 2: gunshot noises at this time and this time where they

992
00:50:12,031 --> 00:50:15,832
Speaker 2: went beforehand? And the ABC never got back to us,

993
00:50:15,832 --> 00:50:18,512
Speaker 2: but they decided to drop their truth defense, which relied

994
00:50:18,511 --> 00:50:21,071
Speaker 2: on that piece of evidence. So then two years later,

995
00:50:21,192 --> 00:50:23,591
Speaker 2: Channel seven Spotlight worked with me to do a whole

996
00:50:23,632 --> 00:50:28,752
Speaker 2: episode breaking down how they had professionally added this extra noise.

997
00:50:29,312 --> 00:50:32,471
Speaker 2: And I had actually given the ABC the full five

998
00:50:32,511 --> 00:50:34,712
Speaker 2: minutes worth of helmet cam footage that I had from

999
00:50:34,752 --> 00:50:38,712
Speaker 2: that deployment that showed the entire sequence of US following

1000
00:50:38,911 --> 00:50:42,872
Speaker 2: these enemies, the guy turning and there's me in the camera,

1001
00:50:43,712 --> 00:50:46,872
Speaker 2: us me ordering him to shoot because over the radio

1002
00:50:46,911 --> 00:50:49,192
Speaker 2: we'd heard this person had picked up a weapon and

1003
00:50:49,232 --> 00:50:52,352
Speaker 2: we were flying in a helicopter above very vulnerable, and

1004
00:50:52,392 --> 00:50:54,632
Speaker 2: then at the very end of the video, it showed

1005
00:50:55,072 --> 00:50:57,752
Speaker 2: me ordering the helicopter to land, the two of us

1006
00:50:57,792 --> 00:50:59,752
Speaker 2: getting out, and the two of us going after these

1007
00:50:59,872 --> 00:51:02,551
Speaker 2: enemy only to get into an ambush. And in the

1008
00:51:02,551 --> 00:51:05,031
Speaker 2: footage you see us getting shot at, you hear the

1009
00:51:05,152 --> 00:51:08,672
Speaker 2: bullet zipping pass us to fire back, and all of

1010
00:51:08,672 --> 00:51:10,792
Speaker 2: that has never been produced by the ABC. All of

1011
00:51:10,792 --> 00:51:13,911
Speaker 2: that went under the carpet, and instead they took down

1012
00:51:14,112 --> 00:51:17,312
Speaker 2: the video once we publicly exposed that they've added extra gunshots,

1013
00:51:17,632 --> 00:51:20,631
Speaker 2: and the whole narrative has been about that. So we

1014
00:51:20,752 --> 00:51:23,352
Speaker 2: provided them with all the real footage and I sat

1015
00:51:23,352 --> 00:51:25,151
Speaker 2: there and offered to do an interview and talk through

1016
00:51:25,152 --> 00:51:27,872
Speaker 2: it all with them. But again it's just been doubling down,

1017
00:51:27,911 --> 00:51:29,791
Speaker 2: doubling down, and no matter how many times it would

1018
00:51:29,792 --> 00:51:32,832
Speaker 2: bring real evidence from those on the ground, the narrative

1019
00:51:32,872 --> 00:51:35,192
Speaker 2: has been to try and defend the story and to

1020
00:51:35,272 --> 00:51:38,832
Speaker 2: attack me for being for daring to step up and

1021
00:51:38,832 --> 00:51:39,232
Speaker 2: take it on.

1022
00:51:39,632 --> 00:51:41,431
Speaker 1: Well, what is so interesting is by the time this

1023
00:51:41,511 --> 00:51:47,232
Speaker 1: actually reaches court, like the drama continues because there's like

1024
00:51:47,232 --> 00:51:49,272
Speaker 1: a pre trial hearing where we decide whether it's going

1025
00:51:49,312 --> 00:51:51,592
Speaker 1: to go to trial or not, and that all seems

1026
00:51:51,592 --> 00:51:53,792
Speaker 1: to go well and good, and then the ABC has

1027
00:51:53,832 --> 00:51:56,991
Speaker 1: a truth defense in place. But then because you've refuted

1028
00:51:57,031 --> 00:51:59,591
Speaker 1: so many of these claims, they have to drop the

1029
00:51:59,632 --> 00:52:04,151
Speaker 1: truth defense and go with public interest. And then eventually

1030
00:52:04,592 --> 00:52:08,232
Speaker 1: they also dropped that one, and so we think, oh, okay,

1031
00:52:08,272 --> 00:52:09,991
Speaker 1: the trials now not going to go ahead. They're going

1032
00:52:10,031 --> 00:52:12,232
Speaker 1: to have to apologize to you and potentially pay you

1033
00:52:12,272 --> 00:52:19,752
Speaker 1: out for defamation. But then ben Fordham finds this unnamed marine.

1034
00:52:19,152 --> 00:52:21,312
Speaker 3: Josh, talk to me about what happening.

1035
00:52:21,471 --> 00:52:23,431
Speaker 1: Josh, the unnamed marine, talk to me about what happened

1036
00:52:23,471 --> 00:52:23,792
Speaker 1: after that.

1037
00:52:24,152 --> 00:52:24,352
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1038
00:52:24,392 --> 00:52:26,992
Speaker 2: So, when the ABC originally published this article, this marine

1039
00:52:26,991 --> 00:52:29,792
Speaker 2: who heard a pop, they gave him the pseudonym Josh,

1040
00:52:30,031 --> 00:52:32,471
Speaker 2: but they still publish his name, his unit, and all

1041
00:52:32,511 --> 00:52:33,751
Speaker 2: these details about him.

1042
00:52:34,192 --> 00:52:35,872
Speaker 3: And for a long time we face.

1043
00:52:35,752 --> 00:52:38,792
Speaker 1: Two like we saw his face unobstructed. Yeah, so.

1044
00:52:40,471 --> 00:52:42,591
Speaker 2: When it came to the part where after they dropped

1045
00:52:42,592 --> 00:52:44,832
Speaker 2: their tooth defense and the ABC said, hey, we're going

1046
00:52:44,911 --> 00:52:47,951
Speaker 2: to drop our public interest defense and drop it completely

1047
00:52:47,991 --> 00:52:51,031
Speaker 2: because we don't want to break the ethical line of

1048
00:52:51,112 --> 00:52:54,431
Speaker 2: journalism and have to reveal our source. That's when you know,

1049
00:52:54,471 --> 00:52:56,911
Speaker 2: ben Fordham and my legal theme come out like, hey,

1050
00:52:56,911 --> 00:52:59,071
Speaker 2: we actually know who Josh is and we've tracked him

1051
00:52:59,112 --> 00:53:02,551
Speaker 2: down just based off the information you've made public and

1052
00:53:03,232 --> 00:53:06,712
Speaker 2: he's actually his name's Dean and he's a salesper here

1053
00:53:06,712 --> 00:53:07,832
Speaker 2: and I won't say anything more.

1054
00:53:07,911 --> 00:53:11,232
Speaker 3: But then we got to the part with ABC's like, well, okay,

1055
00:53:11,312 --> 00:53:13,352
Speaker 3: if you already know who he is, then let's have

1056
00:53:13,392 --> 00:53:14,992
Speaker 3: this defense out and see what happens.

1057
00:53:15,072 --> 00:53:18,231
Speaker 2: It was just I remember the judge Justice Lee said

1058
00:53:18,232 --> 00:53:21,511
Speaker 2: this is turning into an absolute face and it really

1059
00:53:21,632 --> 00:53:23,272
Speaker 2: was all at taxpayers expense.

1060
00:53:23,672 --> 00:53:27,712
Speaker 1: So eventually it does land in your favor and you

1061
00:53:28,792 --> 00:53:33,191
Speaker 1: do get a payout from this. But then in all

1062
00:53:33,232 --> 00:53:36,392
Speaker 1: of the correspondence I have seen in the public since then,

1063
00:53:36,511 --> 00:53:38,711
Speaker 1: is the ABC saying that they have apologized to you

1064
00:53:38,792 --> 00:53:41,872
Speaker 1: several times, and that they have made it very clear

1065
00:53:41,872 --> 00:53:45,631
Speaker 1: on articles that they're misleading or incorrect, and again they've

1066
00:53:45,672 --> 00:53:49,232
Speaker 1: apologized to you. Have you received an apology or at

1067
00:53:49,312 --> 00:53:51,911
Speaker 1: least one that you feel is significant enough to cover

1068
00:53:51,951 --> 00:53:53,392
Speaker 1: you for the fact that you've been fighting this for

1069
00:53:53,431 --> 00:53:53,832
Speaker 1: so long.

1070
00:53:53,991 --> 00:53:54,791
Speaker 3: Well, this is the issue.

1071
00:53:54,832 --> 00:53:56,752
Speaker 2: And this is where Brian does a great job in

1072
00:53:56,792 --> 00:53:59,632
Speaker 2: the podcast the ABC's of Heston Russell to really break

1073
00:53:59,672 --> 00:54:03,152
Speaker 2: down this gas lighting campaign of THEIRS about the apology.

1074
00:54:03,632 --> 00:54:06,591
Speaker 2: So when I won my defamation case, the defamation case

1075
00:54:06,632 --> 00:54:09,312
Speaker 2: found the ABC and the two journalists Josh Robertson and

1076
00:54:09,312 --> 00:54:13,832
Speaker 2: Mark Willersy liable for defamation and to pay damages. But

1077
00:54:13,911 --> 00:54:16,832
Speaker 2: the ABC pays for all their personal damages. And then

1078
00:54:17,352 --> 00:54:20,631
Speaker 2: because we originally entered into the case just asking for

1079
00:54:20,672 --> 00:54:23,272
Speaker 2: them to apologize and to take the stories down, they

1080
00:54:23,312 --> 00:54:25,272
Speaker 2: then had to pay all of my legal costs, so

1081
00:54:25,312 --> 00:54:26,872
Speaker 2: it was a multi million dollar.

1082
00:54:26,712 --> 00:54:28,112
Speaker 3: Bill they had to pay on top.

1083
00:54:29,031 --> 00:54:31,872
Speaker 2: They then went on to one refused to apologize to

1084
00:54:31,951 --> 00:54:35,551
Speaker 2: me post the defamation case. And then only after we

1085
00:54:35,632 --> 00:54:39,232
Speaker 2: expose they're adding of gunshots to the footage did they

1086
00:54:39,232 --> 00:54:41,872
Speaker 2: release apology that was generic to all the members of

1087
00:54:41,911 --> 00:54:44,752
Speaker 2: the second Commander Regiment. And then when I took it

1088
00:54:44,752 --> 00:54:47,192
Speaker 2: even further and they had to conduct this internal review

1089
00:54:47,232 --> 00:54:49,752
Speaker 2: by one of their own staff members, former staff members,

1090
00:54:50,312 --> 00:54:53,151
Speaker 2: they did an apology saying, hey, while Heston Russell wasn't

1091
00:54:53,232 --> 00:54:55,712
Speaker 2: named in this, he has taken offense to it, and

1092
00:54:55,752 --> 00:54:56,591
Speaker 2: we apologize to.

1093
00:54:56,551 --> 00:54:56,951
Speaker 3: Him for that.

1094
00:54:57,431 --> 00:54:59,232
Speaker 1: Because you've taken offense to it.

1095
00:54:59,031 --> 00:55:01,392
Speaker 2: Isn't that you can apologize for the action or you

1096
00:55:01,392 --> 00:55:04,191
Speaker 2: can apologize for the effect, and as opposed to apologizing

1097
00:55:04,192 --> 00:55:06,672
Speaker 2: for their actions, they're apologizing that I took a events,

1098
00:55:06,991 --> 00:55:09,951
Speaker 2: which is pretty insulting to be honest.

1099
00:55:09,712 --> 00:55:11,071
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you're offended.

1100
00:55:11,312 --> 00:55:13,471
Speaker 3: Yeah, is it incredible?

1101
00:55:13,792 --> 00:55:16,031
Speaker 2: And this is the incredible part for me, Claire, Like

1102
00:55:16,031 --> 00:55:20,471
Speaker 2: we're in twenty twenty five with the National Broadcaster that

1103
00:55:20,511 --> 00:55:23,552
Speaker 2: every taxpayer funds over a billion dollars a year asking

1104
00:55:23,712 --> 00:55:28,511
Speaker 2: for adults to apologize whether they were errors or otherwise,

1105
00:55:28,551 --> 00:55:30,632
Speaker 2: but have since been proven in the federal court to

1106
00:55:30,672 --> 00:55:33,472
Speaker 2: have been wrong. And for me, where does that stand

1107
00:55:33,471 --> 00:55:35,431
Speaker 2: as far as the morals and ethics we accept in

1108
00:55:35,471 --> 00:55:39,111
Speaker 2: society where we're not even willing to apologize, even like

1109
00:55:39,192 --> 00:55:42,111
Speaker 2: the head of the ABC who wasn't personally responsible for

1110
00:55:42,152 --> 00:55:45,431
Speaker 2: publishing the article. And I've written to them when particularly

1111
00:55:45,471 --> 00:55:47,511
Speaker 2: with the new managing director and saying, hey, let me

1112
00:55:47,672 --> 00:55:50,312
Speaker 2: spell this out for you. In the federal court proceedings,

1113
00:55:50,511 --> 00:55:53,272
Speaker 2: you submitted on record that you had footage of me

1114
00:55:53,911 --> 00:55:56,951
Speaker 2: shooting from a helicopter at unarmed civilians and that I

1115
00:55:57,031 --> 00:55:59,511
Speaker 2: could be liable to be breaking the rules of war,

1116
00:55:59,592 --> 00:56:02,071
Speaker 2: committing a war crime. You need to apologize for that

1117
00:56:02,112 --> 00:56:04,272
Speaker 2: because that is still on the public record. The Guardian

1118
00:56:04,312 --> 00:56:06,392
Speaker 2: published it as a front page piece and is still

1119
00:56:06,431 --> 00:56:09,511
Speaker 2: online if you search the Heston Ross shooting and unarmed civilians,

1120
00:56:09,991 --> 00:56:12,112
Speaker 2: and they still refuse to They're say no, we have

1121
00:56:12,192 --> 00:56:14,951
Speaker 2: apologized of like mate to have them. So we're in

1122
00:56:14,991 --> 00:56:16,911
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five arguing over and apology.

1123
00:56:18,072 --> 00:56:21,911
Speaker 1: What I do want to land on here, finally, though,

1124
00:56:22,112 --> 00:56:27,312
Speaker 1: Heston is that we have seen other Australian soldiers who,

1125
00:56:27,911 --> 00:56:32,111
Speaker 1: whilst have not been criminally charged with war crimes, they

1126
00:56:32,112 --> 00:56:34,392
Speaker 1: have been in other cases where they have been found

1127
00:56:35,592 --> 00:56:39,432
Speaker 1: to have committed war crimes. So we as the Australian people,

1128
00:56:39,471 --> 00:56:43,752
Speaker 1: are concerned that there's kind of this two arguments here.

1129
00:56:43,792 --> 00:56:46,071
Speaker 1: We need journalists to tell us the truth about what

1130
00:56:46,152 --> 00:56:48,111
Speaker 1: our soldiers are doing on the ground, to make sure

1131
00:56:48,152 --> 00:56:50,752
Speaker 1: that they are accountable for what happens, you know, on

1132
00:56:50,792 --> 00:56:53,232
Speaker 1: the field of war. On the other hand, we don't

1133
00:56:53,272 --> 00:56:56,752
Speaker 1: want our defense force to be unfairly accused of things

1134
00:56:56,752 --> 00:57:00,031
Speaker 1: that they have not done. How do we find the

1135
00:57:00,152 --> 00:57:03,432
Speaker 1: line here, because we're being told that yes, these things

1136
00:57:03,471 --> 00:57:05,392
Speaker 1: are happening, But at the same time we hear your

1137
00:57:05,392 --> 00:57:06,991
Speaker 1: story and we're like, we don't want that to happen

1138
00:57:06,991 --> 00:57:07,591
Speaker 1: to anyone ever.

1139
00:57:07,672 --> 00:57:11,712
Speaker 2: Again absolutely, it's called due process and the actual court system.

1140
00:57:11,792 --> 00:57:14,272
Speaker 2: So the issue is that people like myself have had

1141
00:57:14,312 --> 00:57:18,552
Speaker 2: to go through civil defamation proceedings. And the issue here

1142
00:57:18,592 --> 00:57:20,791
Speaker 2: that most people don't understand. It's the difference between civil

1143
00:57:20,832 --> 00:57:24,472
Speaker 2: and criminal prosecution. You know, if journalists were truly focused

1144
00:57:24,472 --> 00:57:28,112
Speaker 2: on justice, then they would take such accusations like a

1145
00:57:28,112 --> 00:57:31,792
Speaker 2: marine hearing a pop and saying that we'd killed someone

1146
00:57:32,312 --> 00:57:35,672
Speaker 2: to the authorities there there specifically, you know, the Office

1147
00:57:35,712 --> 00:57:38,792
Speaker 2: of the Special Investigator that is costing the taxpayer fifty

1148
00:57:38,832 --> 00:57:40,832
Speaker 2: eight million dollars a year that's been set up by

1149
00:57:40,832 --> 00:57:44,232
Speaker 2: the government to investigate any accusations of war crimes from Afghanistan,

1150
00:57:44,792 --> 00:57:47,472
Speaker 2: to take it to them and have them gather evidence

1151
00:57:48,192 --> 00:57:51,872
Speaker 2: to meet the thresholds of charging someone criminally to then

1152
00:57:51,912 --> 00:57:55,512
Speaker 2: be tested beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal court by

1153
00:57:55,632 --> 00:57:58,592
Speaker 2: a jury. What is happening is we're caught up in

1154
00:57:58,632 --> 00:58:01,512
Speaker 2: this place where journalists can publish whatever they want as

1155
00:58:01,592 --> 00:58:05,592
Speaker 2: long as they can justify in civil proceedings that it

1156
00:58:05,672 --> 00:58:09,392
Speaker 2: meets the balance of probabilities for public interest. Because it

1157
00:58:09,432 --> 00:58:12,312
Speaker 2: is now such a public interest case, and this has

1158
00:58:12,312 --> 00:58:15,232
Speaker 2: been my frustrations. We developed this Veterans Protection Act and

1159
00:58:15,272 --> 00:58:17,552
Speaker 2: tried to get both parties to agree to it before

1160
00:58:17,592 --> 00:58:22,671
Speaker 2: this election. Is that as a society we absolutely need

1161
00:58:22,712 --> 00:58:25,592
Speaker 2: to hold our veterans accountable for all of our actions,

1162
00:58:25,592 --> 00:58:29,112
Speaker 2: particularly in combat. We've now had a Royal Commission of

1163
00:58:29,112 --> 00:58:31,872
Speaker 2: events and veterans suicide, all the rest and the examples

1164
00:58:31,872 --> 00:58:34,272
Speaker 2: from my story and the impact this has. Can we

1165
00:58:34,312 --> 00:58:37,672
Speaker 2: not simply agree to afford those who've been in combat

1166
00:58:38,112 --> 00:58:41,631
Speaker 2: the presumption of innocence and due process, to have any

1167
00:58:41,672 --> 00:58:44,712
Speaker 2: evidence brought before a criminal court and not be played

1168
00:58:44,712 --> 00:58:48,392
Speaker 2: out in civil proceedings, To be allowed to defend ourselves

1169
00:58:48,392 --> 00:58:50,512
Speaker 2: in a court and not have to pay out of

1170
00:58:50,552 --> 00:58:53,992
Speaker 2: our own pockets to launch a defamation case to clear

1171
00:58:53,992 --> 00:58:58,152
Speaker 2: our names. That's the simple ask, and it's just simply

1172
00:58:58,192 --> 00:59:03,912
Speaker 2: reinforcing the legal process, not the media process, not chasing

1173
00:59:03,992 --> 00:59:07,472
Speaker 2: stories that under the provisor of public interest. But public

1174
00:59:07,512 --> 00:59:11,672
Speaker 2: interest is about, you know, true justice, about truly determining

1175
00:59:11,712 --> 00:59:14,392
Speaker 2: if there were war crimes, into truly holding people accountable,

1176
00:59:14,992 --> 00:59:17,352
Speaker 2: not a lot of the circus that's been played out publicly.

1177
00:59:17,552 --> 00:59:20,271
Speaker 3: So that's that's my answer to your question.

1178
00:59:21,832 --> 00:59:24,112
Speaker 1: Thank you to Heston for sharing his story with us.

1179
00:59:24,392 --> 00:59:27,392
Speaker 1: You can listen to all seven episodes of the ABC's

1180
00:59:27,432 --> 00:59:30,192
Speaker 1: of Heston Russell podcast. Now you'll find a link to

1181
00:59:30,232 --> 00:59:33,152
Speaker 1: that in our show notes. True Crime Conversations is a

1182
00:59:33,232 --> 00:59:36,832
Speaker 1: Muma mea podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced

1183
00:59:36,832 --> 00:59:40,592
Speaker 1: by Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown. Thank

1184
00:59:40,632 --> 00:59:43,072
Speaker 1: you so much for listening. I'll be back next week

1185
00:59:43,432 --> 00:59:45,192
Speaker 1: with another true Crime Conversation.