1
00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,112
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

2
00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:15,152
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. Saturday, November twelve,

3
00:00:15,232 --> 00:00:18,232
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, is a big day in Moscow, Idaho,

4
00:00:18,432 --> 00:00:22,432
Speaker 1: a small town near the Washington state border. It's game day,

5
00:00:22,832 --> 00:00:26,032
Speaker 1: and even though the University of Idaho football team, the Vandals,

6
00:00:26,152 --> 00:00:29,232
Speaker 1: aren't exactly on a winning streak, the town still gets

7
00:00:29,232 --> 00:00:31,432
Speaker 1: whipped into a frenzy when they take to the field.

8
00:00:32,192 --> 00:00:35,632
Speaker 1: At eleven thirty am, Xana Kernodle, a junior at the

9
00:00:35,711 --> 00:00:39,071
Speaker 1: university studying marketing, starts to send out texts to a

10
00:00:39,152 --> 00:00:41,751
Speaker 1: friendship group, getting them jeed up for the day ahead.

11
00:00:42,552 --> 00:00:44,632
Speaker 1: She knows her childhood best e, Emily, won't make it.

12
00:00:44,791 --> 00:00:46,992
Speaker 1: She works with the football ground, so she'll already be

13
00:00:47,111 --> 00:00:50,871
Speaker 1: there helping the team behind the scenes. Xana lives at

14
00:00:50,912 --> 00:00:56,032
Speaker 1: eleven twenty two King Road with four roommates, Dylan, Bethany, Caylee,

15
00:00:56,072 --> 00:01:00,072
Speaker 1: and Maddie. They're a tight group living in an area

16
00:01:00,112 --> 00:01:02,672
Speaker 1: with friends all around them. Emily, who we mentioned before,

17
00:01:02,752 --> 00:01:06,112
Speaker 1: is close by, and Xanner's boyfriend Ethan Shapin has reag

18
00:01:06,152 --> 00:01:10,512
Speaker 1: year less sleepovers. By midday, the crew has assembled, including

19
00:01:10,512 --> 00:01:14,831
Speaker 1: Ethan's triplet brother, Hunter Chapin, their friends Josie Peter Lindon

20
00:01:15,112 --> 00:01:19,152
Speaker 1: and Hunter Johnson, Emily's boyfriend and Ethan's best mate. They

21
00:01:19,152 --> 00:01:21,792
Speaker 1: spend the next few hours drinking and moving between the

22
00:01:21,831 --> 00:01:25,192
Speaker 1: residences of the area, before Ethan and Hunter Chapin head

23
00:01:25,232 --> 00:01:28,831
Speaker 1: off to their triplet sisters formal Afterwards, they meet up

24
00:01:28,872 --> 00:01:31,792
Speaker 1: with Xana at their fraternity house party. He takes his

25
00:01:31,831 --> 00:01:34,152
Speaker 1: best mate Hunter and asks him to join them, but

26
00:01:34,232 --> 00:01:36,872
Speaker 1: he says Emily's fallen asleep after her big day working

27
00:01:36,911 --> 00:01:40,792
Speaker 1: at the football. By midnight, Kaylee and Maddie are partying

28
00:01:40,831 --> 00:01:44,032
Speaker 1: at a little club in town. It's always packed on

29
00:01:44,152 --> 00:01:46,952
Speaker 1: game day, but Kaylee, who has not long broken up

30
00:01:46,952 --> 00:01:49,672
Speaker 1: with her childhood sweet hut Jack, admits to Adam, the

31
00:01:49,752 --> 00:01:52,392
Speaker 1: barman and Jack's good friend, that she may have made

32
00:01:52,392 --> 00:01:56,032
Speaker 1: a mistake. Just before one thirty am, the girl's head

33
00:01:56,032 --> 00:01:58,912
Speaker 1: home via a food truck, ordering a Carbonara mac and

34
00:01:58,952 --> 00:02:02,672
Speaker 1: cheese to share. They text a designated sober driver to

35
00:02:02,672 --> 00:02:04,832
Speaker 1: come pick them up and they head back to King Rhode.

36
00:02:05,392 --> 00:02:08,152
Speaker 1: When they get there, Dylan's in her room recovering from

37
00:02:08,192 --> 00:02:11,312
Speaker 1: her big day of drinking. Bethany is already asleep in

38
00:02:11,352 --> 00:02:14,552
Speaker 1: her basement room. Donna and Ethan arrive back at the

39
00:02:14,592 --> 00:02:17,152
Speaker 1: house just after two am. They chat to Kaylee and

40
00:02:17,192 --> 00:02:19,592
Speaker 1: Maddie in the lound room before both head up to bed.

41
00:02:20,272 --> 00:02:22,152
Speaker 1: The girls hang out on the couch a little longer,

42
00:02:22,432 --> 00:02:26,472
Speaker 1: talking about Jack. They text and call him, but he

43
00:02:26,512 --> 00:02:29,872
Speaker 1: doesn't answer. They don't see the white car that's been

44
00:02:29,912 --> 00:02:33,512
Speaker 1: passing by their house again and again. As they'd all

45
00:02:33,592 --> 00:02:37,432
Speaker 1: arrived back home at three AM, Sanna's in her room

46
00:02:37,472 --> 00:02:40,512
Speaker 1: and hungry. She orders door Dash, which arrives at around four.

47
00:02:41,392 --> 00:02:44,152
Speaker 1: Sometime after that, Dylan is drifting in and out of

48
00:02:44,192 --> 00:02:47,112
Speaker 1: her post game day drinking sleep when she thinks she

49
00:02:47,152 --> 00:02:51,232
Speaker 1: hears one of her roommates say there's someone here. Now.

50
00:02:51,632 --> 00:02:54,272
Speaker 1: This King roadhouse is known to have frequent guests. They

51
00:02:54,312 --> 00:02:57,752
Speaker 1: host a lot of get togethers, so it's not unusual.

52
00:02:58,392 --> 00:03:02,312
Speaker 1: But the voice she heard didn't sound right, so she

53
00:03:02,312 --> 00:03:05,632
Speaker 1: gets up and cracks her door just a little. There's

54
00:03:05,632 --> 00:03:08,992
Speaker 1: nothing there, so she goes back to bed, but just

55
00:03:09,072 --> 00:03:14,232
Speaker 1: as she does, she hears someone crying. Is that Sanna again?

56
00:03:14,312 --> 00:03:18,072
Speaker 1: She opens the door just a fraction she hears another voice,

57
00:03:18,392 --> 00:03:22,752
Speaker 1: this one's not familiar, a man who says it's okay,

58
00:03:22,992 --> 00:03:26,112
Speaker 1: I'm gonna help you. There's a noise, a loud thud,

59
00:03:26,392 --> 00:03:29,392
Speaker 1: and her roommate Kaylee's dog Murphy, starts to bark, which

60
00:03:29,432 --> 00:03:33,312
Speaker 1: is very unusual for him. Dylan quickly shuts her door again,

61
00:03:33,392 --> 00:03:36,912
Speaker 1: wondering if she's going crazy. What is going on out there?

62
00:03:37,792 --> 00:03:40,992
Speaker 1: It's quiet then, so Dylan cracks her door for a

63
00:03:41,072 --> 00:03:44,632
Speaker 1: third time, and that's when she sees him, the man

64
00:03:44,872 --> 00:03:48,552
Speaker 1: with the bushy eyebrows. He's wearing a mask. Is he

65
00:03:48,592 --> 00:03:52,312
Speaker 1: a firefighter? He's holding something It looks like a vacuum.

66
00:03:52,592 --> 00:03:56,072
Speaker 1: They make eye contact before Dylan quickly shuts her door again,

67
00:03:56,352 --> 00:03:59,192
Speaker 1: reaching for her taser before realizing it's got no battery.

68
00:03:59,432 --> 00:04:01,752
Speaker 1: She doesn't know it then, but reaching for her taser

69
00:04:02,112 --> 00:04:05,232
Speaker 1: was the right move, even if she doesn't know what

70
00:04:05,552 --> 00:04:09,112
Speaker 1: exactly the man has done to the other residents of

71
00:04:09,152 --> 00:04:16,832
Speaker 1: eleven twenty two King RhoD I'm Claire Murphy and this

72
00:04:16,992 --> 00:04:20,632
Speaker 1: is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most

73
00:04:20,672 --> 00:04:23,432
Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the

74
00:04:23,472 --> 00:04:27,072
Speaker 1: most about them. When Dylan saw that man in her house,

75
00:04:27,672 --> 00:04:31,832
Speaker 1: she rightfully panicked. She texts Bethany in her room below

76
00:04:32,032 --> 00:04:34,791
Speaker 1: Bethany tells her to race down and join her. The

77
00:04:34,872 --> 00:04:37,352
Speaker 1: pair convinced each other that yeah, okay, it was all

78
00:04:37,392 --> 00:04:40,032
Speaker 1: a bit crazy. After all, Bethany hadn't heard a thing.

79
00:04:40,952 --> 00:04:45,272
Speaker 1: Scared and exhausted, the two girls fell asleep by the

80
00:04:45,272 --> 00:04:48,672
Speaker 1: next day, though, when the roommates upstairs still aren't answering

81
00:04:48,712 --> 00:04:52,472
Speaker 1: their phones, Dylan starts to freak out in earnest. Now,

82
00:04:52,472 --> 00:04:55,912
Speaker 1: she speaks to Xana's bestie Emily, who lives nearby, asking

83
00:04:55,952 --> 00:04:57,752
Speaker 1: her to please come over and help them.

84
00:04:57,792 --> 00:04:57,992
Speaker 2: Look.

85
00:04:58,712 --> 00:05:01,552
Speaker 1: Emily jokes about bringing pepper spray, but she and her

86
00:05:01,592 --> 00:05:05,392
Speaker 1: boyfriend Hunter come over to check anyway. Hunter goes inside

87
00:05:05,472 --> 00:05:08,791
Speaker 1: and heads upstairs. He sees that the daughter, Xanna's room

88
00:05:08,872 --> 00:05:13,032
Speaker 1: is slightly ajar. He pushes it open further and sees

89
00:05:13,112 --> 00:05:16,312
Speaker 1: Xanna lying on the floor. It looks like she's fallen

90
00:05:16,392 --> 00:05:19,792
Speaker 1: back face up. His best friend Ethan is lying on

91
00:05:19,832 --> 00:05:23,312
Speaker 1: the bed on his side facing the wall. There's so

92
00:05:23,592 --> 00:05:29,712
Speaker 1: much blood. They've been stabbed multiple times. Hunter doesn't realize

93
00:05:29,912 --> 00:05:33,952
Speaker 1: that Kaylee and Maddie have also been killed. He backs

94
00:05:33,952 --> 00:05:36,432
Speaker 1: out of the house, tells Emily not to go into

95
00:05:36,432 --> 00:05:39,791
Speaker 1: her best friend's room and to call the police. For

96
00:05:39,912 --> 00:05:43,672
Speaker 1: six weeks, the local police, working alongside the FBI and

97
00:05:43,792 --> 00:05:47,752
Speaker 1: state police, would unravel what happened to the Idaho Four,

98
00:05:48,192 --> 00:05:51,512
Speaker 1: leading to the arrest of twenty eight year old Brian Coburger,

99
00:05:51,872 --> 00:05:55,872
Speaker 1: a doctoral student at Washington State University studying criminology. But

100
00:05:55,992 --> 00:06:01,192
Speaker 1: while they got the who, they have never got the why.

101
00:06:01,392 --> 00:06:03,432
Speaker 1: Vicky Ward is the co author of the book The

102
00:06:03,432 --> 00:06:07,592
Speaker 1: Idaho Four, An American Tragedy, spending months speaking to the

103
00:06:07,632 --> 00:06:11,432
Speaker 1: people who knew not just those four innocent students, but

104
00:06:11,472 --> 00:06:14,952
Speaker 1: the men accused of killing them, piecing together all their

105
00:06:14,992 --> 00:06:19,392
Speaker 1: stories so we can better understand why. She joins us now.

106
00:06:21,552 --> 00:06:24,432
Speaker 1: VICKI thank you so much for joining us today. I

107
00:06:24,472 --> 00:06:27,592
Speaker 1: can't imagine the amount of man time that has gone

108
00:06:27,592 --> 00:06:30,671
Speaker 1: into piecing all of this information together. It must have

109
00:06:30,712 --> 00:06:31,671
Speaker 1: been quite a feat.

110
00:06:31,832 --> 00:06:34,592
Speaker 2: It was a lot of time, a lot of hours

111
00:06:34,592 --> 00:06:39,791
Speaker 2: obviously spent in Moscow, where the murders happened, and in Pullman,

112
00:06:40,072 --> 00:06:43,992
Speaker 2: the ten minute drive away where Washington State University is

113
00:06:44,032 --> 00:06:47,351
Speaker 2: and where Brian Coburger lived. I mean, I think the

114
00:06:47,432 --> 00:06:50,592
Speaker 2: book is about two towns in a way, and the

115
00:06:50,672 --> 00:06:56,231
Speaker 2: relationship there. Obviously, I spent a lot of time in Idaho.

116
00:06:56,752 --> 00:06:59,992
Speaker 2: More broadly, This is a strange thing to say, because

117
00:07:00,032 --> 00:07:04,111
Speaker 2: this is a tragedy. This is a book about a terrible,

118
00:07:04,272 --> 00:07:09,912
Speaker 2: terrible tragedy, and it's about the worst of humanity, but

119
00:07:09,952 --> 00:07:13,232
Speaker 2: it's also about the best of humanity. It's certainly not

120
00:07:13,272 --> 00:07:16,592
Speaker 2: a book that glorifies the murderer. I hope it's called

121
00:07:16,592 --> 00:07:20,392
Speaker 2: the Idaho for it is about the victims, but it's

122
00:07:20,432 --> 00:07:23,672
Speaker 2: also it's meant to be emotional. You're meant to feel

123
00:07:24,072 --> 00:07:28,072
Speaker 2: like you're there in Moscow on the night of the murders.

124
00:07:28,072 --> 00:07:30,792
Speaker 2: You're meant as you're meant to feel what it was

125
00:07:30,952 --> 00:07:33,632
Speaker 2: like to be their families, what it was like to

126
00:07:33,672 --> 00:07:35,992
Speaker 2: be their friends, what it was like to be the

127
00:07:35,992 --> 00:07:40,712
Speaker 2: police chief suddenly coping with this and the glare of

128
00:07:40,752 --> 00:07:43,912
Speaker 2: the media, what it was like to be a local journalist.

129
00:07:44,032 --> 00:07:48,632
Speaker 2: You know, you're meant to feel involved and that, and

130
00:07:49,152 --> 00:07:52,152
Speaker 2: you're meant to understand that when something like this happens,

131
00:07:52,192 --> 00:07:58,192
Speaker 2: there is a massive ripple effect, and that the community

132
00:07:58,392 --> 00:08:02,112
Speaker 2: of Moscow is never going to be the same. There was,

133
00:08:02,192 --> 00:08:05,952
Speaker 2: you know, a great, great relief among all many many

134
00:08:05,952 --> 00:08:09,792
Speaker 2: people I spoke to that Brian Coburger was not from there,

135
00:08:09,832 --> 00:08:13,432
Speaker 2: He wasn't one of them. But nonetheless it has torn

136
00:08:14,072 --> 00:08:17,712
Speaker 2: that town apart. And you know, I think I quote

137
00:08:17,912 --> 00:08:22,592
Speaker 2: young student Lexi Pattinson, you know, saying, will never quite

138
00:08:22,632 --> 00:08:23,392
Speaker 2: be the same again.

139
00:08:23,672 --> 00:08:27,312
Speaker 1: Well, can you take us to Moscow? Because it is

140
00:08:27,392 --> 00:08:31,232
Speaker 1: a relatively small town. It's a border town essentially, but

141
00:08:31,352 --> 00:08:34,552
Speaker 1: it has a university and it is often filled with

142
00:08:34,631 --> 00:08:38,832
Speaker 1: students who are you know, well known for partying and

143
00:08:38,872 --> 00:08:43,232
Speaker 1: having a good time. But what's the general community of Moscow, like,

144
00:08:43,312 --> 00:08:45,472
Speaker 1: what's it like to be there in that town?

145
00:08:46,072 --> 00:08:51,712
Speaker 2: So it's an incredibly picturesque small town and it's really

146
00:08:51,992 --> 00:08:54,312
Speaker 2: really small. I mean that was the thing that I

147
00:08:54,352 --> 00:08:57,032
Speaker 2: had to get used to. You know, I would stay

148
00:08:57,032 --> 00:08:59,752
Speaker 2: at the Best Western hotel and someone said to me, well,

149
00:08:59,792 --> 00:09:01,631
Speaker 2: that's a little out of time. Well, I mean it's

150
00:09:01,672 --> 00:09:05,312
Speaker 2: a five minute drive from anywhere, and you know, I

151
00:09:05,312 --> 00:09:07,752
Speaker 2: would get in my car expecting to sort of travel

152
00:09:07,752 --> 00:09:10,072
Speaker 2: great distances and I would be, you know, just be

153
00:09:10,352 --> 00:09:15,672
Speaker 2: two minutes from the next interview. Moscow is interesting because

154
00:09:15,672 --> 00:09:20,391
Speaker 2: it's a liberal college town. Back in the nineteen seventies,

155
00:09:20,552 --> 00:09:23,631
Speaker 2: it was kind of known as you know, it was

156
00:09:23,752 --> 00:09:29,032
Speaker 2: had a very big LGBTQ community. Now there is a

157
00:09:29,072 --> 00:09:32,112
Speaker 2: division in the town and that comes into play in

158
00:09:32,152 --> 00:09:36,392
Speaker 2: the book. There is a conservative church in Moscow called

159
00:09:36,472 --> 00:09:41,712
Speaker 2: Christ Church that has about four thousand members, and it

160
00:09:41,792 --> 00:09:46,032
Speaker 2: has its own school, its own university, its own cafes

161
00:09:46,112 --> 00:09:50,592
Speaker 2: and bars, it's its own bookstore, and it's very wealthy,

162
00:09:50,672 --> 00:09:53,352
Speaker 2: this church. It's buying up a lot of main street

163
00:09:53,432 --> 00:09:57,312
Speaker 2: and its stated mission is to evangelize the town. And

164
00:09:57,432 --> 00:10:00,152
Speaker 2: the members of the church are all very blonde and

165
00:10:00,232 --> 00:10:03,872
Speaker 2: white and preppy looking, and you know, in some ways

166
00:10:03,952 --> 00:10:06,352
Speaker 2: the community sort of likes the optics of that. But

167
00:10:07,152 --> 00:10:10,472
Speaker 2: there are things about the church that this is a

168
00:10:10,472 --> 00:10:13,391
Speaker 2: liberal town. The church is quite conservative. This has quite

169
00:10:13,472 --> 00:10:19,192
Speaker 2: conservative views about women. And the church also refused to

170
00:10:20,152 --> 00:10:24,832
Speaker 2: mark wear masks during COVID and so there were some arrests,

171
00:10:24,952 --> 00:10:29,232
Speaker 2: including of the grand two grandchildren of the head of

172
00:10:29,272 --> 00:10:34,832
Speaker 2: the church, and lawsuits were flying at the time of

173
00:10:35,192 --> 00:10:37,832
Speaker 2: the murders, and the book sort of does get into

174
00:10:38,832 --> 00:10:44,232
Speaker 2: how those simmering tensions got way worse because of the murders.

175
00:10:44,272 --> 00:10:48,832
Speaker 2: The murders were almost weaponized. It was quite helpful for

176
00:10:48,872 --> 00:10:51,512
Speaker 2: the church that the image of the police was a

177
00:10:51,512 --> 00:10:55,032
Speaker 2: little bit tarnished during the six weeks when it looked

178
00:10:55,072 --> 00:10:57,232
Speaker 2: like they couldn't find whoever had done this.

179
00:10:58,232 --> 00:11:02,432
Speaker 1: You conducted hundreds of interviews in order to piece this

180
00:11:02,512 --> 00:11:06,752
Speaker 1: book together, and you can tell just from the detail

181
00:11:06,832 --> 00:11:11,472
Speaker 1: that you get into when you are essentially following the

182
00:11:11,472 --> 00:11:15,792
Speaker 1: four victims in their final months, and we understand so

183
00:11:15,912 --> 00:11:18,392
Speaker 1: much more about their relationships not just to each other,

184
00:11:18,472 --> 00:11:22,352
Speaker 1: but to their friendship and the wider university group. And

185
00:11:22,392 --> 00:11:25,712
Speaker 1: we also get to understand, as you mentioned, the police chief,

186
00:11:26,312 --> 00:11:30,272
Speaker 1: all of his employees, and the extended sort of town members,

187
00:11:30,312 --> 00:11:32,472
Speaker 1: and then the parents of the circle widens and widens

188
00:11:32,512 --> 00:11:35,672
Speaker 1: and widens. So out of these hundreds of interviews and

189
00:11:35,712 --> 00:11:40,112
Speaker 1: all those conversations that you had, what do you feel

190
00:11:40,192 --> 00:11:43,872
Speaker 1: were the most significant revelations that they shared with you,

191
00:11:43,992 --> 00:11:47,032
Speaker 1: regardless of where that came from, because you did speak

192
00:11:47,072 --> 00:11:49,472
Speaker 1: to so many people to pull this book together.

193
00:11:49,952 --> 00:11:59,992
Speaker 2: Well, I think I was very stunned to really understand

194
00:12:01,712 --> 00:12:04,992
Speaker 2: what it was like to be Hunter Johnson. The day

195
00:12:05,152 --> 00:12:11,151
Speaker 2: after the murders, Easan Japin's best friend, the boyfriend of

196
00:12:11,272 --> 00:12:15,272
Speaker 2: Xana's best friend. You know, this young couple is called

197
00:12:15,312 --> 00:12:19,152
Speaker 2: over to the house by the surviving roommates who don't

198
00:12:19,792 --> 00:12:22,712
Speaker 2: don't understand what they've seen the night before, but have

199
00:12:22,832 --> 00:12:27,592
Speaker 2: this feeling of foreboding and they walk over to the house,

200
00:12:27,872 --> 00:12:33,592
Speaker 2: not really thinking that anything that serious can have happened. Emily,

201
00:12:33,992 --> 00:12:37,352
Speaker 2: Zanna's best friend, when she gets the call from Dylan Mortenson,

202
00:12:37,392 --> 00:12:39,592
Speaker 2: the roommates and he says, hah, shall I bring my

203
00:12:39,752 --> 00:12:42,832
Speaker 2: pepper spray? She thinks, you know, it's not that unusual

204
00:12:42,872 --> 00:12:46,512
Speaker 2: for Dylan Mortenson to have seen something, you know, had

205
00:12:46,552 --> 00:12:50,912
Speaker 2: some crazy dream or hallucination after a big Foot partying night,

206
00:12:50,992 --> 00:12:53,391
Speaker 2: and it had been a big football game day on

207
00:12:53,872 --> 00:12:56,992
Speaker 2: the campus at the University of Idaho. But when Hunter

208
00:12:57,112 --> 00:13:02,752
Speaker 2: Johnson then goes into that house, goes up the stairs

209
00:13:03,472 --> 00:13:08,832
Speaker 2: and opens Xannakenodle's bedroom door, and he sees Sanna lying

210
00:13:08,872 --> 00:13:13,152
Speaker 2: on the floor and pulls of blood, and he sees

211
00:13:13,952 --> 00:13:19,432
Speaker 2: Ethan Chapin, her boyfriend lying in the bed, obviously dead.

212
00:13:20,232 --> 00:13:22,792
Speaker 2: He hunt, I mean, none of us know what we

213
00:13:22,792 --> 00:13:25,712
Speaker 2: would do in a situation like that, But this young

214
00:13:25,832 --> 00:13:30,472
Speaker 2: man's first reaction is to stop his girlfriend, Emily, who's

215
00:13:30,512 --> 00:13:33,152
Speaker 2: coming up the stairs behind him, from coming any further,

216
00:13:33,272 --> 00:13:36,432
Speaker 2: and to stop the others who are outside the house

217
00:13:36,472 --> 00:13:40,631
Speaker 2: from coming in. And his first instinct is to protect

218
00:13:40,712 --> 00:13:43,312
Speaker 2: them and make sure they do not see what he

219
00:13:43,352 --> 00:13:47,232
Speaker 2: has just seen, and then he tells them to call

220
00:13:47,352 --> 00:13:51,352
Speaker 2: nine one one and protects them from what he already knows,

221
00:13:51,672 --> 00:13:54,312
Speaker 2: which is that they're dead. He says, there's an you know,

222
00:13:54,352 --> 00:13:57,232
Speaker 2: there's an unconscious person. Tell them there's an unconscious person.

223
00:13:58,152 --> 00:14:02,192
Speaker 2: Having done that, he then goes into the kitchen, gets

224
00:14:02,192 --> 00:14:08,272
Speaker 2: a kitchen knife, goes back into the bedroom and opens

225
00:14:08,512 --> 00:14:11,631
Speaker 2: you know, checks the pulses of his friends, but opens

226
00:14:11,632 --> 00:14:13,792
Speaker 2: all the closet, you know, trying to see if the

227
00:14:13,872 --> 00:14:18,232
Speaker 2: murderer is still there and you know which is which

228
00:14:18,272 --> 00:14:24,512
Speaker 2: is also an extraordinary brave thing to do. And you know,

229
00:14:24,592 --> 00:14:26,632
Speaker 2: I got to know Hunter Johnson, and I got to

230
00:14:26,672 --> 00:14:32,032
Speaker 2: know his girlfriend, Emilia Launt very well, and you know,

231
00:14:33,992 --> 00:14:40,272
Speaker 2: they're just great kids who this horrible, horrible thing happened to.

232
00:14:40,672 --> 00:14:44,712
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, sort of really hearing the

233
00:14:44,752 --> 00:14:47,832
Speaker 2: story from their eyes was very revealing. You know, the

234
00:14:47,952 --> 00:14:54,632
Speaker 2: absolute confusion when they arrested Brian Coburger and they look

235
00:14:54,632 --> 00:14:58,992
Speaker 2: at Coburger's picture and they're just completely mystified as to

236
00:14:59,032 --> 00:15:04,592
Speaker 2: what on earth the connection could possibly be between their

237
00:15:04,712 --> 00:15:11,472
Speaker 2: friends and this guy. And then their bravery. You know, Emily,

238
00:15:12,392 --> 00:15:15,632
Speaker 2: you know, is still terrified of the dark too. You know,

239
00:15:15,712 --> 00:15:18,592
Speaker 2: Hunter Johnson, you know, didn't speak for a few days

240
00:15:18,792 --> 00:15:21,512
Speaker 2: weeks after that thing. The trauma was so immense. And

241
00:15:21,552 --> 00:15:24,312
Speaker 2: then on top of the whole thing, on the you know,

242
00:15:24,432 --> 00:15:27,912
Speaker 2: they were accused online of being the murderers. But even so,

243
00:15:28,712 --> 00:15:32,472
Speaker 2: you know, Emily refused to have you know, you can

244
00:15:32,512 --> 00:15:37,152
Speaker 2: get this this I rapid eye movement therapy that is

245
00:15:37,192 --> 00:15:41,992
Speaker 2: meant to help with trauma. But the damn side of

246
00:15:42,032 --> 00:15:45,232
Speaker 2: it is that if you have it and you then

247
00:15:45,312 --> 00:15:48,632
Speaker 2: testify to a jury, a judge can rule that it

248
00:15:48,672 --> 00:15:51,392
Speaker 2: can be ruled in admissible because your brain has been

249
00:15:51,432 --> 00:15:55,832
Speaker 2: effectively tampered with. So Emily refused to do it because

250
00:15:55,832 --> 00:15:59,152
Speaker 2: she was determined that she was going to testify against Coburger.

251
00:15:59,192 --> 00:16:02,072
Speaker 2: And now obviously I hope, actually I haven't spoken to

252
00:16:02,072 --> 00:16:03,632
Speaker 2: her in a week or two. I hope she has

253
00:16:03,632 --> 00:16:04,352
Speaker 2: gone and done it.

254
00:16:05,152 --> 00:16:07,192
Speaker 1: There were two other people in the house the night

255
00:16:07,792 --> 00:16:13,512
Speaker 1: the four were murdered, Dylan and Beth, And for them,

256
00:16:13,672 --> 00:16:17,712
Speaker 1: I imagine there must be on top of the trauma

257
00:16:17,752 --> 00:16:22,472
Speaker 1: of losing their friends, of them being potential victims because

258
00:16:22,472 --> 00:16:25,192
Speaker 1: they were in the house at the time, and the

259
00:16:25,232 --> 00:16:27,512
Speaker 1: fact that one of them even saw the man in

260
00:16:27,552 --> 00:16:31,792
Speaker 1: the hallway that night, but didn't understand what was going

261
00:16:31,832 --> 00:16:35,392
Speaker 1: on and didn't piece together that that terrible thing had

262
00:16:35,392 --> 00:16:39,272
Speaker 1: happened literally in rooms just you know, mere meters away.

263
00:16:40,152 --> 00:16:42,392
Speaker 1: What's the impact being on those two And as you

264
00:16:42,472 --> 00:16:47,552
Speaker 1: mentioned too, like the online onslaught of you know, Nettison

265
00:16:47,632 --> 00:16:51,512
Speaker 1: Detectives was really quite terrible for them that you step

266
00:16:51,592 --> 00:16:54,392
Speaker 1: through in the book that you know, their family and

267
00:16:54,392 --> 00:16:56,992
Speaker 1: friends are trying to defend them from accusations that it's

268
00:16:57,032 --> 00:16:59,712
Speaker 1: them who are the killers at the same time as

269
00:16:59,712 --> 00:17:02,912
Speaker 1: they're trying to process this traumatic event that they've experienced.

270
00:17:02,952 --> 00:17:06,431
Speaker 1: I can't imagine where their minds have been at for

271
00:17:06,472 --> 00:17:09,032
Speaker 1: the past few years as they've tried to absorb everything

272
00:17:09,071 --> 00:17:09,631
Speaker 1: that's happened.

273
00:17:10,552 --> 00:17:13,872
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've just had the sentencing this morning,

274
00:17:14,472 --> 00:17:18,512
Speaker 2: and you know, we heard from a friend of Bethany's,

275
00:17:18,792 --> 00:17:21,591
Speaker 2: we heard from both of them, from Bethany indirectly and

276
00:17:21,631 --> 00:17:25,992
Speaker 2: from you know, I thought Dylan Mortensen gave a very

277
00:17:26,032 --> 00:17:33,031
Speaker 2: powerful impact statement. And to your point, you heard in

278
00:17:33,071 --> 00:17:38,032
Speaker 2: a heart wrenching way, the guilt that they felt for

279
00:17:38,111 --> 00:17:43,912
Speaker 2: surviving and the you know, the awful agonizing questioning why

280
00:17:43,952 --> 00:17:48,071
Speaker 2: do I get to live? And not being able to

281
00:17:48,071 --> 00:17:54,671
Speaker 2: look at the victims' families without just feeling appalling through

282
00:17:55,232 --> 00:17:58,912
Speaker 2: all of this, and you know, I do, I mean,

283
00:17:58,952 --> 00:18:01,711
Speaker 2: I hope that. Actually one of the things that the

284
00:18:01,752 --> 00:18:07,032
Speaker 2: sentencing did accomplish this morning was to sort of put

285
00:18:07,151 --> 00:18:10,752
Speaker 2: all the speculation about those two to rest. I mean,

286
00:18:10,792 --> 00:18:14,951
Speaker 2: they were just their college kids who were being college kids.

287
00:18:15,591 --> 00:18:19,191
Speaker 2: And it was a party house. You know, the idea

288
00:18:19,272 --> 00:18:21,751
Speaker 2: that there were people going in and out late at

289
00:18:21,831 --> 00:18:25,431
Speaker 2: night not so extraordinary, and it had been, you know,

290
00:18:25,552 --> 00:18:28,792
Speaker 2: a heavy party day. Bethany funk in the basement never

291
00:18:28,792 --> 00:18:33,552
Speaker 2: saw or heard anything. And you know, you can see

292
00:18:33,631 --> 00:18:36,351
Speaker 2: if you're you know, you've been asleep, and you know,

293
00:18:36,431 --> 00:18:39,151
Speaker 2: and you see somebody carrying a vacuum. I mean, it

294
00:18:39,151 --> 00:18:40,711
Speaker 2: makes no sense. You would go, well, you know, I

295
00:18:40,792 --> 00:18:44,672
Speaker 2: must be hallucinating, which is exactly what Dylan Mortenson thought

296
00:18:44,712 --> 00:18:49,271
Speaker 2: she was doing. I mean again, it's also it's so human.

297
00:18:49,792 --> 00:18:51,552
Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the reasons I wanted to

298
00:18:51,552 --> 00:18:56,431
Speaker 2: write this book because it's just it feels like we

299
00:18:57,032 --> 00:18:58,912
Speaker 2: can all relate to it.

300
00:18:59,032 --> 00:19:01,751
Speaker 1: Something the book also gives us some insight into is

301
00:19:01,792 --> 00:19:05,031
Speaker 1: the thinking of the police and the detectives who are

302
00:19:05,071 --> 00:19:07,871
Speaker 1: working on this case. Because it is a small town.

303
00:19:07,952 --> 00:19:10,671
Speaker 1: They're a small police force. They don't have the resources

304
00:19:10,712 --> 00:19:14,311
Speaker 1: available to them that the bigger cities would have. Not

305
00:19:14,391 --> 00:19:19,311
Speaker 1: that they're inexperienced, but they aren't that experienced with a

306
00:19:19,512 --> 00:19:23,071
Speaker 1: media storm that's going to follow an event like the

307
00:19:23,192 --> 00:19:26,752
Speaker 1: deaths of four young people. And so we kind of

308
00:19:26,792 --> 00:19:30,952
Speaker 1: get this understanding that they're trying to keep information quiet

309
00:19:30,992 --> 00:19:35,071
Speaker 1: so that their investigation is not hampered by all of

310
00:19:35,111 --> 00:19:37,951
Speaker 1: this publicity. But at the same time, we're in a

311
00:19:38,071 --> 00:19:41,831
Speaker 1: very different world now by twenty twenty two, and the

312
00:19:41,871 --> 00:19:44,912
Speaker 1: internet is going to be rife with speculation that they

313
00:19:44,992 --> 00:19:49,592
Speaker 1: then have to counteract. How do you feel the police

314
00:19:49,591 --> 00:19:53,071
Speaker 1: have actually handled this situation considering everything they had to

315
00:19:53,111 --> 00:19:53,991
Speaker 1: face in that moment.

316
00:19:54,071 --> 00:19:55,591
Speaker 2: Well, I think they did, you know, I mean, I

317
00:19:55,591 --> 00:19:58,151
Speaker 2: think James Frye would give them ten out of ten

318
00:19:58,952 --> 00:20:03,751
Speaker 2: for actual police work and took great pride in the

319
00:20:03,752 --> 00:20:06,871
Speaker 2: fact that you had, you know, the FBI stately and

320
00:20:06,911 --> 00:20:09,711
Speaker 2: the police department working together seamlessly. There were no leaks,

321
00:20:10,311 --> 00:20:13,512
Speaker 2: nobody argued about you know, who was doing what, and

322
00:20:14,192 --> 00:20:15,552
Speaker 2: you know, at the end of the day they got

323
00:20:15,552 --> 00:20:20,232
Speaker 2: the right guy. But your point about the media is correct,

324
00:20:20,631 --> 00:20:24,071
Speaker 2: and you know, he was very honest about the fact

325
00:20:24,111 --> 00:20:28,591
Speaker 2: that all his years of training turned out, you know,

326
00:20:28,671 --> 00:20:31,311
Speaker 2: to be unhelpful in that you know, he'd been trained

327
00:20:31,311 --> 00:20:36,391
Speaker 2: to protect the investigation, stay silent, not tip off the

328
00:20:36,472 --> 00:20:39,792
Speaker 2: murderer who would be out there watching press conferences. But

329
00:20:39,992 --> 00:20:42,711
Speaker 2: in the world that we live in, into that void

330
00:20:42,792 --> 00:20:48,191
Speaker 2: comes all the speculation and sort of true crime nutter theories,

331
00:20:48,712 --> 00:20:51,751
Speaker 2: and the police then have to waste their time clearing

332
00:20:51,792 --> 00:20:54,191
Speaker 2: all sorts of people who had absolutely nothing to do

333
00:20:54,272 --> 00:20:59,512
Speaker 2: with this. And worse, actually, the victims' families also are

334
00:20:59,512 --> 00:21:03,512
Speaker 2: not getting enough information from the police and they start

335
00:21:03,591 --> 00:21:05,671
Speaker 2: to believe a lot of the stuff on the internet

336
00:21:05,712 --> 00:21:07,792
Speaker 2: because they and they want to get involved in it

337
00:21:07,831 --> 00:21:11,552
Speaker 2: because trying to protect the legacy of their dead children.

338
00:21:11,752 --> 00:21:14,111
Speaker 2: And there's all this crap flying around about you know,

339
00:21:14,151 --> 00:21:18,032
Speaker 2: were they in drugs, cartels? I mean all sorts of

340
00:21:18,071 --> 00:21:21,431
Speaker 2: crazy stuff. And so yeah, James Fry, the police chief,

341
00:21:21,512 --> 00:21:26,671
Speaker 2: learns the hard way that he has to take control

342
00:21:26,712 --> 00:21:29,351
Speaker 2: of the narrative and he has to get coaching from

343
00:21:29,992 --> 00:21:32,992
Speaker 2: the state police chief investment officer. And it's the one thing,

344
00:21:33,311 --> 00:21:35,911
Speaker 2: you know, if he had this all over again, that

345
00:21:35,992 --> 00:21:38,151
Speaker 2: he would do differently is the way he would handle

346
00:21:38,192 --> 00:21:40,311
Speaker 2: the media and he would step up straight away and

347
00:21:40,311 --> 00:21:41,712
Speaker 2: can try and control the narrative.

348
00:21:42,032 --> 00:21:45,512
Speaker 1: There was a lot of gag orders around this case.

349
00:21:45,911 --> 00:21:47,432
Speaker 2: Well that was very controversial.

350
00:21:48,071 --> 00:21:51,192
Speaker 1: Yeah, we must have made also writing this book very

351
00:21:51,192 --> 00:21:52,272
Speaker 1: difficult for you too.

352
00:21:52,192 --> 00:21:54,071
Speaker 2: Right, well, and so I do want to stress actually

353
00:21:54,111 --> 00:21:57,271
Speaker 2: that you raise an important point that the police chief

354
00:21:57,712 --> 00:22:00,431
Speaker 2: did not break the gag order. What he did do

355
00:22:00,591 --> 00:22:03,751
Speaker 2: that was very generous was he gave me his time

356
00:22:04,111 --> 00:22:07,872
Speaker 2: and his insight and too understand who he is as

357
00:22:07,911 --> 00:22:11,191
Speaker 2: a person, who he is as you know, how he

358
00:22:11,792 --> 00:22:16,351
Speaker 2: led that department and what it was like emotionally for

359
00:22:16,512 --> 00:22:20,192
Speaker 2: him going through that experience. But what he was very

360
00:22:20,192 --> 00:22:24,792
Speaker 2: careful not to do was give me specifics about the investigation.

361
00:22:24,871 --> 00:22:26,552
Speaker 2: I mean, having now spent a lot of time with

362
00:22:26,631 --> 00:22:28,552
Speaker 2: James Wright, that that's not who he is. He's a

363
00:22:28,591 --> 00:22:32,351
Speaker 2: stand up, great guy. It did make life difficult, but

364
00:22:32,431 --> 00:22:37,152
Speaker 2: actually it also one of the things that really shocked

365
00:22:37,831 --> 00:22:41,551
Speaker 2: me was how in the dark the families were. I mean,

366
00:22:41,591 --> 00:22:43,552
Speaker 2: it turned out they didn't know much more than I did.

367
00:22:44,232 --> 00:22:46,591
Speaker 2: And I was kind of surprised to learn how few

368
00:22:46,831 --> 00:22:50,992
Speaker 2: rights victims' families have in this country. And meanwhile, Coburger

369
00:22:51,111 --> 00:22:52,752
Speaker 2: had all sorts of rights you know, he was a

370
00:22:52,792 --> 00:22:54,351
Speaker 2: llawd wear a suit. He was allowed to push the

371
00:22:54,391 --> 00:22:57,191
Speaker 2: trial back. He was allowed to move the trial. And

372
00:22:57,232 --> 00:23:01,351
Speaker 2: I can see why the family's points of view on

373
00:23:01,351 --> 00:23:04,951
Speaker 2: this diverged. Why you had, you know, three sets of

374
00:23:05,032 --> 00:23:09,792
Speaker 2: parents very well, well, two sets at the end frustrated

375
00:23:09,831 --> 00:23:13,871
Speaker 2: with the plea deal and not having the death penalty

376
00:23:13,911 --> 00:23:15,671
Speaker 2: still on the table and going through with it, and

377
00:23:15,712 --> 00:23:16,671
Speaker 2: the others fine with it.

378
00:23:18,911 --> 00:23:21,871
Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

379
00:23:22,071 --> 00:23:25,512
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Vicky Ward, investigative journalist and co author

380
00:23:25,552 --> 00:23:28,792
Speaker 1: of The Idaho Four, an American tragedy, with James Patterson.

381
00:23:29,871 --> 00:23:32,311
Speaker 1: Up next, Vicky tells us about how each of the

382
00:23:32,391 --> 00:23:35,111
Speaker 1: parents of the Idaho Four found out about their children's

383
00:23:35,151 --> 00:23:42,431
Speaker 1: deaths and what followed. It's interesting to you outline in

384
00:23:42,472 --> 00:23:44,752
Speaker 1: the book how each of the parents of the four

385
00:23:44,831 --> 00:23:47,552
Speaker 1: victims found out that their child was even a victim,

386
00:23:47,911 --> 00:23:51,871
Speaker 1: because at the beginning, there was only this idea that

387
00:23:52,431 --> 00:23:56,631
Speaker 1: Xanna and Ethan were victims, and Kaylee and Maddie weren't

388
00:23:56,631 --> 00:23:59,151
Speaker 1: even mentioned in the beginning. And there's this accounts in

389
00:23:59,192 --> 00:24:02,311
Speaker 1: your book of these parents calling police and calling everybody

390
00:24:02,391 --> 00:24:03,991
Speaker 1: they know and trying to figure out what has happened,

391
00:24:04,032 --> 00:24:08,631
Speaker 1: knowing that there has been a homicide at their child's address.

392
00:24:08,871 --> 00:24:11,792
Speaker 1: They know exactly that it's happened on King Street, but

393
00:24:12,631 --> 00:24:15,712
Speaker 1: they don't get any information for a really long time.

394
00:24:15,792 --> 00:24:19,431
Speaker 1: And then Kaylee's sister even starts investigating herself and seems

395
00:24:19,472 --> 00:24:23,071
Speaker 1: to get further than police even get in the initial stages.

396
00:24:24,032 --> 00:24:27,071
Speaker 2: Well so, and I mean, I don't know if you've

397
00:24:27,111 --> 00:24:32,111
Speaker 2: seen the sentencing yet, but Olivia Gonzalvez, Kaylie's older sister,

398
00:24:32,311 --> 00:24:37,472
Speaker 2: is is a you know, powerful, impressive, very smart young woman,

399
00:24:37,591 --> 00:24:43,111
Speaker 2: and she gave a powerful, an impressive performance in court today.

400
00:24:43,111 --> 00:24:46,032
Speaker 2: And I got a note from her father telling me

401
00:24:46,111 --> 00:24:50,111
Speaker 2: how proud he was of her, and he's you know,

402
00:24:50,232 --> 00:24:54,431
Speaker 2: one of actually the sort of subtexts of of the book.

403
00:24:54,472 --> 00:24:56,792
Speaker 2: But you know, I've lived this A little bit is seen.

404
00:24:57,792 --> 00:24:59,792
Speaker 2: You know, one of the silver linings of this, of

405
00:24:59,911 --> 00:25:05,952
Speaker 2: this awful thing, is watching how Steve and Christy Gonzalvez

406
00:25:05,992 --> 00:25:09,591
Speaker 2: kaylee parents came. You know, I mean, they already were

407
00:25:09,591 --> 00:25:12,911
Speaker 2: in awe of their eldest daughter. But I mean she

408
00:25:13,431 --> 00:25:15,991
Speaker 2: really sort of in a way, is like the super

409
00:25:15,992 --> 00:25:18,191
Speaker 2: sleuth of the book. You're right, I mean, when she

410
00:25:19,752 --> 00:25:24,512
Speaker 2: hears what's happened. She's in California with her husband. She's

411
00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:27,711
Speaker 2: pregnant with her third kid. She's got two young, tiny kids.

412
00:25:28,351 --> 00:25:32,152
Speaker 2: Everyone gets into that car and her husband drives through

413
00:25:32,192 --> 00:25:36,392
Speaker 2: the night while she works her phones. She's got access

414
00:25:36,431 --> 00:25:39,912
Speaker 2: to Kaylie's phone records, and you know, yes, she's way

415
00:25:39,911 --> 00:25:43,751
Speaker 2: ahead of the police, talking to everyone that Kayleie and

416
00:25:43,792 --> 00:25:47,792
Speaker 2: Maddie had spoken to in their last hours. She's finding

417
00:25:47,831 --> 00:25:50,552
Speaker 2: the video of them at the grub truck the night

418
00:25:50,591 --> 00:25:54,951
Speaker 2: before getting their you know, mac Carbonara, and you so

419
00:25:55,151 --> 00:25:57,431
Speaker 2: you really feel it by the time when she walks

420
00:25:57,472 --> 00:26:00,232
Speaker 2: into her parents' house and she sees, you know, her

421
00:26:00,272 --> 00:26:04,351
Speaker 2: parents shocked and devastated, and she just wants to help

422
00:26:04,391 --> 00:26:07,911
Speaker 2: them and take charge. And her dismay when she discovers

423
00:26:07,952 --> 00:26:10,112
Speaker 2: that they don't even have a point person yet at

424
00:26:10,111 --> 00:26:13,752
Speaker 2: the Moscow Police Department, and she then finds it hard

425
00:26:13,831 --> 00:26:17,392
Speaker 2: to find someone to give all this information she's gathered,

426
00:26:18,192 --> 00:26:20,831
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, and so you understand, just from

427
00:26:20,831 --> 00:26:25,911
Speaker 2: a human point of view, how the frustration begins to build.

428
00:26:26,032 --> 00:26:28,191
Speaker 2: And you're right, you know when you say that at

429
00:26:28,192 --> 00:26:32,392
Speaker 2: the beginning, it seems like Xana an Ethan because under Johnson,

430
00:26:33,192 --> 00:26:37,351
Speaker 2: who finds them, never goes further. He doesn't go further

431
00:26:37,431 --> 00:26:40,911
Speaker 2: upstairs in the house, they wait for the police to arrive,

432
00:26:40,952 --> 00:26:44,552
Speaker 2: and then there's that heart sort of rending scene where

433
00:26:45,871 --> 00:26:48,591
Speaker 2: the first cop who arrives is younger than Hunter Johnson.

434
00:26:48,831 --> 00:26:51,591
Speaker 2: He's a twenty two year old, and when the police

435
00:26:51,631 --> 00:26:54,032
Speaker 2: chief discovers that the first man in is the sort

436
00:26:54,071 --> 00:26:57,231
Speaker 2: of the baby of the police force, his heart he's like,

437
00:26:57,351 --> 00:27:01,151
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, these young, young, young adults have just

438
00:27:01,151 --> 00:27:03,671
Speaker 2: seen something they cannot unsee.

439
00:27:03,792 --> 00:27:07,111
Speaker 1: Without a public trial to rely on. How did you

440
00:27:07,712 --> 00:27:11,752
Speaker 1: and your co author go about verifying all this anecdotal

441
00:27:11,752 --> 00:27:14,311
Speaker 1: evidence that you've collected together from all of these people

442
00:27:14,351 --> 00:27:17,311
Speaker 1: that you've spoken to, because I mean, there's a lot

443
00:27:17,351 --> 00:27:20,351
Speaker 1: of speculation involved in this. So how do you then

444
00:27:20,591 --> 00:27:21,912
Speaker 1: verify all these facts?

445
00:27:22,752 --> 00:27:28,191
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the book is deliberately structured like

446
00:27:28,232 --> 00:27:31,871
Speaker 2: a kaleidoscope. You move, as you just said, you know,

447
00:27:32,232 --> 00:27:36,511
Speaker 2: so we move from one person's point of view to

448
00:27:36,631 --> 00:27:41,991
Speaker 2: another person's, So you know that you move when the

449
00:27:42,111 --> 00:27:45,191
Speaker 2: murders happen. You know, you have a scene from the

450
00:27:45,192 --> 00:27:47,831
Speaker 2: point of view of the local journalist, who's the first person.

451
00:27:47,871 --> 00:27:50,391
Speaker 2: The first journalist there that you have the point of

452
00:27:50,472 --> 00:27:52,191
Speaker 2: view of the police chief, you have the point of

453
00:27:52,232 --> 00:27:54,391
Speaker 2: view of the friends, you've just found the bodies, you

454
00:27:54,391 --> 00:27:56,512
Speaker 2: have the point of view of the fact. And then

455
00:27:56,552 --> 00:28:00,831
Speaker 2: Stacy Chapin hearing you know, she's in the supermarket when

456
00:28:01,032 --> 00:28:04,631
Speaker 2: she gets that awful call from her son Hunter, and

457
00:28:04,671 --> 00:28:06,232
Speaker 2: then you move to the living room of the gods

458
00:28:06,391 --> 00:28:12,512
Speaker 2: Alvis family. And so in that sense it is already

459
00:28:12,591 --> 00:28:16,992
Speaker 2: true because what I'm what we're telling you is what

460
00:28:17,032 --> 00:28:20,871
Speaker 2: it felt like to be those people. It's their experience

461
00:28:21,911 --> 00:28:26,351
Speaker 2: that's being documented. So you know, I have a scene

462
00:28:26,952 --> 00:28:30,031
Speaker 2: that I've been asked about, which is Emily Zanna's best friend.

463
00:28:30,712 --> 00:28:35,951
Speaker 2: She has a dream and in her dream, Coburger asks

464
00:28:36,272 --> 00:28:41,832
Speaker 2: Maddie Mogen out in the vegan restaurant in Moscow and

465
00:28:41,911 --> 00:28:44,352
Speaker 2: she's waitressing, and she turns him down, and that's the

466
00:28:44,392 --> 00:28:48,911
Speaker 2: beginning of his obsession with her. That is Emily's dream.

467
00:28:49,352 --> 00:28:52,872
Speaker 2: It's what she It's what when she now tries to

468
00:28:52,911 --> 00:28:58,552
Speaker 2: put it together, it's what she imagines happened. So I'm

469
00:28:58,592 --> 00:29:01,832
Speaker 2: not asserting, and nor is James Patterson. We're not asserting

470
00:29:02,512 --> 00:29:06,072
Speaker 2: that this is in fact what happened. We're just this

471
00:29:06,152 --> 00:29:10,792
Speaker 2: is what the best friends. This is their best guess

472
00:29:11,032 --> 00:29:13,471
Speaker 2: and that's what's in their head. So in that sense,

473
00:29:14,431 --> 00:29:16,991
Speaker 2: you know, I think that everything in the book is

474
00:29:17,192 --> 00:29:21,192
Speaker 2: couched in that way. Do I know what was exactly

475
00:29:21,712 --> 00:29:25,352
Speaker 2: in Brian Coberger's head, No, of course not. But do

476
00:29:25,431 --> 00:29:29,112
Speaker 2: I know what it was like to be stuck in

477
00:29:29,112 --> 00:29:32,552
Speaker 2: a car with him just weeks before the murder as

478
00:29:32,592 --> 00:29:35,911
Speaker 2: one of his classmates was, Yes, because his classmate goes

479
00:29:35,952 --> 00:29:40,112
Speaker 2: into that scene in detail, and you know what Coburger

480
00:29:40,152 --> 00:29:42,911
Speaker 2: says about women and how he can have any women

481
00:29:42,992 --> 00:29:44,751
Speaker 2: he wants, and you know, in that scene is I

482
00:29:44,752 --> 00:29:45,552
Speaker 2: think very telling.

483
00:29:46,352 --> 00:29:48,352
Speaker 1: What surprised me when I started reading your book, and

484
00:29:48,392 --> 00:29:51,872
Speaker 1: it was very much from the perspective of the Idaho

485
00:29:52,032 --> 00:29:54,872
Speaker 1: for as we refer to them as, and you you know,

486
00:29:54,952 --> 00:29:57,152
Speaker 1: you get to understand what their campus life is like,

487
00:29:57,152 --> 00:29:58,991
Speaker 1: what their home life is like, and who they are

488
00:29:59,072 --> 00:30:02,392
Speaker 1: to each other, and you know, since the joy in

489
00:30:02,431 --> 00:30:06,711
Speaker 1: them just being young people experiencing college life and sorority life,

490
00:30:07,752 --> 00:30:10,912
Speaker 1: and then it feels very sudden, but you flip into

491
00:30:10,952 --> 00:30:18,471
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger's world, which is actually quite shocking. I'd really

492
00:30:18,512 --> 00:30:20,711
Speaker 1: love to get an understanding from you of what it

493
00:30:20,792 --> 00:30:24,671
Speaker 1: was like to delve into his circle to understand from

494
00:30:24,712 --> 00:30:27,672
Speaker 1: the people who knew him what he was like.

495
00:30:28,592 --> 00:30:33,231
Speaker 2: Well, first I will tell you that where he grew

496
00:30:33,312 --> 00:30:38,072
Speaker 2: up is the most bleak, depressing place I think I've

497
00:30:38,072 --> 00:30:40,752
Speaker 2: ever been, and I've been stuck in the Arctic. There's

498
00:30:40,832 --> 00:30:44,232
Speaker 2: nothing for kids to do. It's what they call a

499
00:30:44,232 --> 00:30:47,911
Speaker 2: bedroom community. So it's sort of like the last point

500
00:30:48,392 --> 00:30:51,432
Speaker 2: in terms of distance from New York where people commute

501
00:30:51,472 --> 00:30:54,191
Speaker 2: either into New Jersey or New York. And so you

502
00:30:54,712 --> 00:30:58,552
Speaker 2: have a lot of kids growing up. You know, we're

503
00:30:58,592 --> 00:31:02,152
Speaker 2: basically parents gone most of the week, but there's nothing

504
00:31:02,192 --> 00:31:05,352
Speaker 2: for these kids to do. They live's very wooded that

505
00:31:05,392 --> 00:31:08,512
Speaker 2: there's not even bowling alley. I didn't see a movie theater.

506
00:31:09,352 --> 00:31:12,392
Speaker 2: There's nothing, which is a reason that drugs run rampant

507
00:31:12,752 --> 00:31:15,671
Speaker 2: in that part of the world. And as you know,

508
00:31:16,272 --> 00:31:20,911
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time with the mother of

509
00:31:21,872 --> 00:31:25,992
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger's probably only real friend who sadly passed away

510
00:31:26,072 --> 00:31:28,192
Speaker 2: from a drug overdose in twenty twenty one, a guy

511
00:31:28,192 --> 00:31:31,392
Speaker 2: called Jeremy Saba, who, unlike Brian Coburger, you know, Jeremy

512
00:31:31,392 --> 00:31:35,672
Speaker 2: Sarba was popular and athletic, and until he got addicted

513
00:31:35,712 --> 00:31:41,432
Speaker 2: to heroin. But Connie, his mother, knew the Coburgers, knew

514
00:31:41,472 --> 00:31:45,231
Speaker 2: the family, knew Brian about as well as anyone. They

515
00:31:45,272 --> 00:31:48,752
Speaker 2: had lived next door for many years. The two kids

516
00:31:49,272 --> 00:31:51,632
Speaker 2: had been friends, and she showed me where, you know,

517
00:31:51,792 --> 00:31:54,552
Speaker 2: Brian would come through the trees to come and hang

518
00:31:54,592 --> 00:31:57,191
Speaker 2: out with Jeremy, and it was usually that way round.

519
00:31:57,512 --> 00:32:02,512
Speaker 2: I mean, Jeremy was the magnet. Brian, the overweight, anti social,

520
00:32:02,872 --> 00:32:06,991
Speaker 2: quiet kid who barely spoke, was the one seeking me out.

521
00:32:07,312 --> 00:32:11,191
Speaker 2: But there are scenes in the book that show Brian

522
00:32:11,272 --> 00:32:17,392
Speaker 2: Coburger very early on becoming extremely manipulative, and it also

523
00:32:17,512 --> 00:32:22,592
Speaker 2: show him breaking in to the Sabre's house and in

524
00:32:22,952 --> 00:32:26,671
Speaker 2: a very deliberate, calculated, cold way, you know, he phones

525
00:32:26,832 --> 00:32:30,272
Speaker 2: this woman who's been nothing but kind to him because

526
00:32:30,392 --> 00:32:34,152
Speaker 2: Jeremy's been arrested for the first time on possession of drugs,

527
00:32:34,152 --> 00:32:36,192
Speaker 2: and he says, when are you going to visit Jeremy

528
00:32:36,232 --> 00:32:39,191
Speaker 2: in prison, you know, in jail, because I'd like to

529
00:32:39,232 --> 00:32:41,672
Speaker 2: come too. So she tells him, and he uses that

530
00:32:41,952 --> 00:32:44,431
Speaker 2: window of time not to go to the jail, but

531
00:32:44,512 --> 00:32:47,712
Speaker 2: to break in to the Saber house and steal from her.

532
00:32:47,752 --> 00:32:50,752
Speaker 2: And you know, years later, when he's done some rehab.

533
00:32:51,152 --> 00:32:54,152
Speaker 2: He suddenly appears in her kitchen to apologize, which is

534
00:32:54,352 --> 00:33:00,832
Speaker 2: she knows is part of the rehab process. But you

535
00:33:00,952 --> 00:33:05,672
Speaker 2: see there the beginning of the sort of manipulative, cold

536
00:33:05,952 --> 00:33:11,552
Speaker 2: calculated guy who's ready to break the law and who's

537
00:33:11,911 --> 00:33:17,152
Speaker 2: obviously lacking an empathy. And you know, I then you know,

538
00:33:17,312 --> 00:33:22,152
Speaker 2: talked to friends of his. Well, no, no, he didn't

539
00:33:22,192 --> 00:33:25,231
Speaker 2: have friends. People who were in his class as an

540
00:33:25,352 --> 00:33:30,832
Speaker 2: undergraduate into sales. They called him the ghost because he

541
00:33:30,832 --> 00:33:34,152
Speaker 2: would arrive with his coffee cup, stand there for one

542
00:33:34,192 --> 00:33:37,752
Speaker 2: minute before class began, and then class would be over

543
00:33:37,792 --> 00:33:42,191
Speaker 2: and he'd leave, you know, never any social interactions. But

544
00:33:42,272 --> 00:33:46,191
Speaker 2: in those classes he was exposed to the minds of

545
00:33:46,272 --> 00:33:49,392
Speaker 2: serial killers and spree killers. I mean, that's what they

546
00:33:49,431 --> 00:33:53,792
Speaker 2: were learning. And you know, definitely his classmates remembered being

547
00:33:53,832 --> 00:33:57,232
Speaker 2: taught about this guy, Elliott Roger, who was a young

548
00:33:57,352 --> 00:34:02,671
Speaker 2: college student, right but anti social, was a virgin, couldn't

549
00:34:02,712 --> 00:34:03,191
Speaker 2: get laid.

550
00:34:03,671 --> 00:34:03,872
Speaker 3: You know.

551
00:34:03,952 --> 00:34:07,671
Speaker 2: He ends up in twenty fourteen writing a manifesto and

552
00:34:07,671 --> 00:34:10,031
Speaker 2: making a video saying I'm now going to go out

553
00:34:10,072 --> 00:34:12,232
Speaker 2: and kill all the sorority women who wouldn't sleep with me.

554
00:34:12,552 --> 00:34:15,872
Speaker 2: And he sends this video to a therapist who sends

555
00:34:15,911 --> 00:34:18,272
Speaker 2: it to his mother two minutes before he goes out

556
00:34:18,951 --> 00:34:22,951
Speaker 2: and kills sixteen people before eventually turning the gun on himself.

557
00:34:22,991 --> 00:34:27,432
Speaker 2: And this guy becomes a sort of cult hero of

558
00:34:28,352 --> 00:34:32,031
Speaker 2: what they call the in cell movement, you know, involuntary celibates.

559
00:34:33,152 --> 00:34:38,232
Speaker 2: So we know that Brian Coburger was exposed to all

560
00:34:38,272 --> 00:34:41,791
Speaker 2: of that. We know that he got kicked out of

561
00:34:42,792 --> 00:34:49,032
Speaker 2: a bar in Pennsylvania because he was behaving inappropriately with women,

562
00:34:50,392 --> 00:34:53,991
Speaker 2: and we know that by the time he got to

563
00:34:54,272 --> 00:34:58,352
Speaker 2: Washington State University, his views of women got him into

564
00:34:58,392 --> 00:35:02,232
Speaker 2: trouble and he couldn't keep those his thoughts about women

565
00:35:02,511 --> 00:35:05,431
Speaker 2: to himself, and whether it was in the classroom or

566
00:35:05,471 --> 00:35:11,232
Speaker 2: out of the class from his actions and words jeopardized

567
00:35:11,632 --> 00:35:15,151
Speaker 2: his teaching position there and his funding there. So by

568
00:35:15,192 --> 00:35:17,272
Speaker 2: the time of the night of the murders, he's really

569
00:35:17,312 --> 00:35:21,872
Speaker 2: got nothing to lose. He's blown, he's blown everything. What

570
00:35:21,951 --> 00:35:25,111
Speaker 2: should have been the apex of his career is now

571
00:35:25,352 --> 00:35:26,352
Speaker 2: the bottom.

572
00:35:26,872 --> 00:35:30,032
Speaker 1: So he's basically telling people around him that women shouldn't

573
00:35:30,031 --> 00:35:32,872
Speaker 1: bother getting an education, even though he's a teaching assistant

574
00:35:32,872 --> 00:35:36,991
Speaker 1: to a professor marking their work and he's delivering these big,

575
00:35:37,031 --> 00:35:39,431
Speaker 1: long essays about how wrong they are about everything that

576
00:35:39,471 --> 00:35:43,191
Speaker 1: they've written, and he's basically telling the only other man

577
00:35:43,232 --> 00:35:46,192
Speaker 1: that he's really speaking to in that course that women

578
00:35:46,272 --> 00:35:49,792
Speaker 1: have no position being educated. They should be homemakers, and

579
00:35:50,031 --> 00:35:52,632
Speaker 1: men should be the ones who are in charge.

580
00:35:52,712 --> 00:35:56,952
Speaker 2: Right, that's exactly right. And worse, he says that he

581
00:35:56,951 --> 00:36:00,071
Speaker 2: he can walk into any social gathering and get any

582
00:36:00,312 --> 00:36:04,232
Speaker 2: and have any women he wants, given that he was

583
00:36:04,272 --> 00:36:08,031
Speaker 2: an anti social guy who was not invited to social gatherings.

584
00:36:08,352 --> 00:36:10,231
Speaker 2: You know what was hard to believe for the guy

585
00:36:10,272 --> 00:36:13,071
Speaker 2: he was telling this to. I think you get a

586
00:36:13,112 --> 00:36:17,872
Speaker 2: sense in the book of this guy spiraling down. And

587
00:36:17,911 --> 00:36:20,991
Speaker 2: there's that terrible scene where his classmate looks at him

588
00:36:21,192 --> 00:36:26,272
Speaker 2: and you know, thinks that he's so palpably ill mentally,

589
00:36:26,352 --> 00:36:29,271
Speaker 2: physically in every way, he looks like the walking dead.

590
00:36:29,312 --> 00:36:33,152
Speaker 2: That he starts to type out this care form that

591
00:36:33,712 --> 00:36:36,832
Speaker 2: ought to go anonymously to the administration, who would have

592
00:36:36,832 --> 00:36:39,511
Speaker 2: pulled him in to check on him. And then this

593
00:36:39,551 --> 00:36:42,792
Speaker 2: guy deletes it because he thinks there's something about Coburger

594
00:36:42,792 --> 00:36:45,872
Speaker 2: that's so odd that if he should ever find out

595
00:36:45,951 --> 00:36:48,272
Speaker 2: who had sent this form in, there could be trouble.

596
00:36:48,272 --> 00:36:50,592
Speaker 2: For him, and you know that it's a terrible, terrible

597
00:36:50,632 --> 00:36:53,631
Speaker 2: irony because you know, a week later he goes ou

598
00:36:53,672 --> 00:36:54,832
Speaker 2: and commits the murders.

599
00:36:55,471 --> 00:37:00,591
Speaker 1: What details did you uncover about that week in the

600
00:37:00,632 --> 00:37:05,232
Speaker 1: preparations that Coburger was making in those moments before the

601
00:37:05,272 --> 00:37:11,791
Speaker 1: actual murder? Know about his travels to Idaho University, which

602
00:37:11,832 --> 00:37:16,232
Speaker 1: was not terribly far from his own university campus. Do

603
00:37:16,312 --> 00:37:18,591
Speaker 1: we know what his movements and what his preparations were

604
00:37:18,672 --> 00:37:19,432
Speaker 1: like in that time?

605
00:37:19,872 --> 00:37:22,352
Speaker 2: Well, so we know because it was in the probable

606
00:37:22,632 --> 00:37:27,111
Speaker 2: cause Effi David, that the police believed he was in

607
00:37:27,152 --> 00:37:31,312
Speaker 2: the vicinity of the King Road house twelve times between

608
00:37:31,392 --> 00:37:35,792
Speaker 2: August and the night of the murders. So I mean

609
00:37:35,832 --> 00:37:39,312
Speaker 2: the deduction is that they think he was stalking, that

610
00:37:39,431 --> 00:37:43,031
Speaker 2: he drove to Moscow twelve times and sat at the

611
00:37:43,072 --> 00:37:46,352
Speaker 2: back of the house, and having then having followed his

612
00:37:46,352 --> 00:37:50,671
Speaker 2: footsteps as it were, and driven the way he would

613
00:37:50,672 --> 00:37:52,431
Speaker 2: have driven, and parked my car where he would have

614
00:37:52,471 --> 00:37:55,272
Speaker 2: parked his car. You know, you do have a direct

615
00:37:55,511 --> 00:37:58,792
Speaker 2: view into what was Maddie Mogan's bedroom. I mean, that's

616
00:37:58,832 --> 00:38:02,672
Speaker 2: really the only bedroom you could see actually properly into

617
00:38:03,511 --> 00:38:05,631
Speaker 2: from the road and.

618
00:38:05,632 --> 00:38:07,151
Speaker 1: Just the way she's said her room up to she

619
00:38:07,232 --> 00:38:10,151
Speaker 1: was quite visible, yes, in that room to write, because

620
00:38:10,152 --> 00:38:12,752
Speaker 1: she'd kind of set up her vanity right there when

621
00:38:12,792 --> 00:38:13,591
Speaker 1: she did her makeup and.

622
00:38:13,672 --> 00:38:16,872
Speaker 2: C exactly, never dreaming that somebody, you know, beyond the

623
00:38:16,911 --> 00:38:19,832
Speaker 2: trees in the road was looking in on her. I mean,

624
00:38:19,832 --> 00:38:22,551
Speaker 2: but you know, having said that, you know her friends

625
00:38:23,352 --> 00:38:27,312
Speaker 2: and neighbors, you know, I quote this one young woman, neighbor,

626
00:38:27,431 --> 00:38:33,312
Speaker 2: Lexi Pattinson, would you know, walk past the house and

627
00:38:33,672 --> 00:38:35,792
Speaker 2: she you know, and smiled. She would walk to her

628
00:38:35,832 --> 00:38:38,592
Speaker 2: car and she every night and she would see Maddie

629
00:38:38,632 --> 00:38:41,712
Speaker 2: through the window, lights blaring on, and it was a

630
00:38:41,712 --> 00:38:45,071
Speaker 2: lot you know, it was a heartwarming site to see

631
00:38:45,112 --> 00:38:48,152
Speaker 2: her putting on her makeup and culling her hair. Nobody

632
00:38:48,272 --> 00:38:52,231
Speaker 2: was thinking, you know, evil was lurking, you know, sort

633
00:38:52,272 --> 00:38:55,431
Speaker 2: of stalking her. But what do we know about I

634
00:38:55,431 --> 00:38:59,951
Speaker 2: mean what we don't know the minutia of sort of

635
00:38:59,991 --> 00:39:04,671
Speaker 2: like the twenty four hours before. We do know there

636
00:39:04,712 --> 00:39:08,272
Speaker 2: were reports that you know, lots of things were happening

637
00:39:08,312 --> 00:39:12,552
Speaker 2: around the same time. One was the implosion of his job. Two,

638
00:39:12,872 --> 00:39:16,152
Speaker 2: he was looking terrible. I mean, he was looking like

639
00:39:16,471 --> 00:39:21,152
Speaker 2: he hadn't slept. We know from I mean, we know

640
00:39:21,832 --> 00:39:26,712
Speaker 2: this is more from what Dylan Mortenson saw and the

641
00:39:26,832 --> 00:39:30,672
Speaker 2: lack of evidence that the police were able to find

642
00:39:31,991 --> 00:39:35,951
Speaker 2: that you know, he clearly had kitten himself out with

643
00:39:36,031 --> 00:39:38,111
Speaker 2: a lot of precision and care. I mean, he was

644
00:39:38,792 --> 00:39:43,431
Speaker 2: had a mask and gloves. I mean, the only mistake

645
00:39:43,551 --> 00:39:47,792
Speaker 2: he made was to leave the knife sheath with a

646
00:39:47,832 --> 00:39:51,992
Speaker 2: tiny speck of DNA on the snap behind. And Dylan

647
00:39:52,031 --> 00:39:56,111
Speaker 2: Mortenson that night saw him carrying what she described as

648
00:39:56,112 --> 00:40:00,071
Speaker 2: a vacuum and we just heard this morning and sentencing

649
00:40:01,232 --> 00:40:05,192
Speaker 2: that he used something else other than a knife to

650
00:40:05,712 --> 00:40:09,431
Speaker 2: on Katie Gunsalve is that she woke up and that

651
00:40:09,551 --> 00:40:13,872
Speaker 2: there was trauma I think to her her face, and

652
00:40:14,592 --> 00:40:20,551
Speaker 2: there was another instrument that had been used. But you know,

653
00:40:20,632 --> 00:40:29,512
Speaker 2: he covered his traces very cleverly until the lab sent back,

654
00:40:29,752 --> 00:40:34,511
Speaker 2: analyzed the DNA and then using this investigative genetic genealogy,

655
00:40:34,592 --> 00:40:38,872
Speaker 2: reconstructed a family tree that then pointed them in the

656
00:40:38,911 --> 00:40:43,271
Speaker 2: direction of Coburger because you know, he was the one

657
00:40:43,431 --> 00:40:46,431
Speaker 2: who lived ten minutes from the scene of the crime.

658
00:40:47,192 --> 00:40:50,031
Speaker 2: They didn't have anything to put it together because you know,

659
00:40:50,112 --> 00:40:54,151
Speaker 2: he was he his car. Though they could see the car,

660
00:40:54,232 --> 00:40:58,151
Speaker 2: they couldn't see the license plate because it had Pennsylvania.

661
00:40:58,632 --> 00:41:00,911
Speaker 2: He didn't have a front plate because it still had

662
00:41:00,991 --> 00:41:03,951
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania plates, so they couldn't get a clear idea of

663
00:41:03,991 --> 00:41:06,631
Speaker 2: the car. And very you know, very cleverly in week

664
00:41:06,672 --> 00:41:12,232
Speaker 2: after he went into the local DMV and changed the plates. So,

665
00:41:12,832 --> 00:41:15,111
Speaker 2: I mean he had thought all of this through. And

666
00:41:15,152 --> 00:41:17,591
Speaker 2: then on the night of the night when you know,

667
00:41:17,632 --> 00:41:21,192
Speaker 2: they were readying to do a dawn raid on his parents'

668
00:41:21,272 --> 00:41:26,711
Speaker 2: family home, they still didn't have his DNA. They'd gone

669
00:41:26,712 --> 00:41:29,911
Speaker 2: through the garbage, they had the dads, but Coburger. They'd

670
00:41:29,951 --> 00:41:32,912
Speaker 2: seen him with gloves, you know, carrying out the trash,

671
00:41:32,951 --> 00:41:36,792
Speaker 2: putting his trash in his neighbour's trash, and you know,

672
00:41:36,911 --> 00:41:40,232
Speaker 2: he knew what he was about. They didn't get to

673
00:41:40,272 --> 00:41:44,231
Speaker 2: swab him and get his DNA until they actually arrested him.

674
00:41:44,471 --> 00:41:48,512
Speaker 1: So his studying of criminology taught him a lot about

675
00:41:48,511 --> 00:41:49,792
Speaker 1: how to pull this off, right.

676
00:41:50,672 --> 00:41:54,792
Speaker 2: Yes, unquestionably, unquestionably, And that's why this is all so

677
00:41:54,951 --> 00:42:03,111
Speaker 2: difficult because again we heard in sentencing today that you know,

678
00:42:03,192 --> 00:42:06,592
Speaker 2: the judge really issued warning to the media not to

679
00:42:06,672 --> 00:42:10,312
Speaker 2: now go out and glorify this guy because he hasn't

680
00:42:10,392 --> 00:42:13,832
Speaker 2: expressed the motive. There will be fascination as to what

681
00:42:13,872 --> 00:42:18,792
Speaker 2: the motive was. And the danger is that if you

682
00:42:18,951 --> 00:42:22,911
Speaker 2: give Coburger the microphone, he takes back control of the

683
00:42:22,991 --> 00:42:25,631
Speaker 2: story and you give him back all the power. It's

684
00:42:25,672 --> 00:42:28,512
Speaker 2: a very difficult question. I mean, I feel really, really,

685
00:42:28,551 --> 00:42:32,192
Speaker 2: really good about The Idaho Four because the parents of

686
00:42:32,272 --> 00:42:35,792
Speaker 2: the victims have told me that they're thrilled that the

687
00:42:35,832 --> 00:42:39,872
Speaker 2: book exists because it's called The Idaho Four, but it

688
00:42:39,951 --> 00:42:43,511
Speaker 2: is a tribute to their children, and it means that

689
00:42:43,752 --> 00:42:44,711
Speaker 2: we don't forget them.

690
00:42:45,672 --> 00:42:50,111
Speaker 1: Why did you choose to release this book now rather

691
00:42:50,192 --> 00:42:54,551
Speaker 1: than wait until after maybe gag orders are lifted and

692
00:42:54,592 --> 00:42:57,031
Speaker 1: we learn more and get more detail about these things.

693
00:42:57,072 --> 00:43:00,192
Speaker 1: Why choose to do it before all of that potential information.

694
00:43:00,792 --> 00:43:03,792
Speaker 2: So when we set out to do this, potentially the

695
00:43:03,832 --> 00:43:07,551
Speaker 2: trial was going to be that summer, we thought we

696
00:43:07,551 --> 00:43:09,511
Speaker 2: were going to be on a really we thought we

697
00:43:09,511 --> 00:43:12,552
Speaker 2: were going to be late. That was actually our worry.

698
00:43:12,592 --> 00:43:16,431
Speaker 2: We you know, we didn't control the timing of this.

699
00:43:16,872 --> 00:43:19,872
Speaker 2: We just wrote the best book we could as quickly

700
00:43:20,911 --> 00:43:23,032
Speaker 2: as we could. And you know, it was a complete

701
00:43:23,072 --> 00:43:26,071
Speaker 2: surprise to us, I mean, and we so we never

702
00:43:26,112 --> 00:43:28,672
Speaker 2: planned to come out before a trial. We sort of

703
00:43:28,672 --> 00:43:33,231
Speaker 2: assumed we would be coming out after it, and then

704
00:43:33,272 --> 00:43:39,192
Speaker 2: obviously this thing kept being pushed and pushed and pushed.

705
00:43:39,592 --> 00:43:44,352
Speaker 2: And there's nothing in the book that broke any you

706
00:43:44,392 --> 00:43:47,591
Speaker 2: know that we you know, we didn't, we didn't. No

707
00:43:47,672 --> 00:43:52,511
Speaker 2: one broke the gag order to speak to us. And

708
00:43:53,192 --> 00:43:55,312
Speaker 2: there's nothing in there that was you know, that isn't

709
00:43:55,312 --> 00:43:59,752
Speaker 2: in the public that anybody couldn't get. So what we

710
00:43:59,752 --> 00:44:05,031
Speaker 2: were planning to do was then cover the trial and

711
00:44:05,232 --> 00:44:09,631
Speaker 2: add extra chapters for the vaperback. And I think the

712
00:44:09,632 --> 00:44:11,431
Speaker 2: book is quite open about the fact that this is

713
00:44:11,471 --> 00:44:16,352
Speaker 2: a moving story, it's a news story, and so you know,

714
00:44:16,471 --> 00:44:19,511
Speaker 2: that's that's why, you know, it wasn't like there was

715
00:44:19,551 --> 00:44:22,751
Speaker 2: anything in the book that ought to have that would

716
00:44:22,752 --> 00:44:24,472
Speaker 2: have interfered with the course of justice.

717
00:44:29,592 --> 00:44:35,872
Speaker 1: Next, we unpack how this trial eventually unfolded. Well, can

718
00:44:35,872 --> 00:44:39,112
Speaker 1: we talk about the trial then, because it has been

719
00:44:39,232 --> 00:44:41,752
Speaker 1: a fair roller coaster, starting from pleading not guilty to

720
00:44:42,272 --> 00:44:45,192
Speaker 1: ending up pleading guilty in the end, and there's been

721
00:44:45,192 --> 00:44:47,872
Speaker 1: a lot of conversation about what happened in between those

722
00:44:47,911 --> 00:44:51,431
Speaker 1: two please, and how the defense was planning to position

723
00:44:51,632 --> 00:44:55,151
Speaker 1: Coburger and who the other potential suspects they had in

724
00:44:55,232 --> 00:44:58,832
Speaker 1: mind to put forward. What's your take on how this

725
00:44:58,911 --> 00:45:00,392
Speaker 1: trial eventually unfolded.

726
00:45:01,232 --> 00:45:04,992
Speaker 2: He wanted to avoid the death penalty, and his counsel,

727
00:45:05,272 --> 00:45:08,551
Speaker 2: you know, they must have realized it was game over.

728
00:45:09,192 --> 00:45:10,911
Speaker 2: They were out of options. I mean, yeah, you're right,

729
00:45:10,951 --> 00:45:12,672
Speaker 2: there was all this. You know, they went down the

730
00:45:12,752 --> 00:45:17,671
Speaker 2: DNA route, and they exhausted that as a defense line

731
00:45:17,712 --> 00:45:19,792
Speaker 2: of defense, you know, arguing that that should have been

732
00:45:19,792 --> 00:45:22,911
Speaker 2: in admissible, and court they talked about an alibi, but

733
00:45:22,951 --> 00:45:27,031
Speaker 2: there was no alibi that the credible alibi that came up.

734
00:45:27,072 --> 00:45:27,232
Speaker 3: You know.

735
00:45:27,272 --> 00:45:30,071
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was talk of the others. Who were they?

736
00:45:30,511 --> 00:45:33,392
Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, his defense

737
00:45:33,431 --> 00:45:37,352
Speaker 2: attorney's job was probably to keep him alive, which is

738
00:45:37,392 --> 00:45:40,471
Speaker 2: what she's done. What's my take on it? You know,

739
00:45:40,592 --> 00:45:44,232
Speaker 2: I totally understand why the families are divided about it.

740
00:45:44,272 --> 00:45:49,032
Speaker 2: I totally understand why the Chapims, who I know very well,

741
00:45:49,511 --> 00:45:53,111
Speaker 2: are like, Okay, good, he's gone. We're just getting on

742
00:45:53,192 --> 00:45:56,072
Speaker 2: with our lives. And I totally understand why the Gonzalves

743
00:45:56,752 --> 00:46:00,551
Speaker 2: family feels like it's not good enough and that they

744
00:46:00,592 --> 00:46:03,232
Speaker 2: didn't they feel that the speed at which it happened

745
00:46:04,112 --> 00:46:07,192
Speaker 2: robbed them of sort of having any ownership in this

746
00:46:07,272 --> 00:46:09,711
Speaker 2: decision that if they'd had longer to think about it,

747
00:46:10,031 --> 00:46:13,431
Speaker 2: you know, and the nature. I mean Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,

748
00:46:13,471 --> 00:46:16,232
Speaker 2: did try to explain I think in court why it

749
00:46:16,312 --> 00:46:18,872
Speaker 2: had to happen so fast, and he understood that the

750
00:46:18,951 --> 00:46:23,192
Speaker 2: gonz others were not happy with it and acknowledge that publicly.

751
00:46:23,471 --> 00:46:24,752
Speaker 2: I mean there are I mean, I think one of

752
00:46:24,792 --> 00:46:26,792
Speaker 2: the things the book does do is highlight there are

753
00:46:26,872 --> 00:46:29,111
Speaker 2: there are some real problems in the way that our

754
00:46:29,152 --> 00:46:30,472
Speaker 2: system of justice runs.

755
00:46:31,232 --> 00:46:34,191
Speaker 1: Did any part of this investigation for you or your

756
00:46:34,232 --> 00:46:39,152
Speaker 1: co author make you reconsider your approach to crime reporting?

757
00:46:39,192 --> 00:46:42,471
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been such a long process for

758
00:46:42,511 --> 00:46:45,512
Speaker 1: you guys, so many interviews and trying to piece together

759
00:46:45,672 --> 00:46:49,712
Speaker 1: everyone's movements and motivations. Does it make you stop and

760
00:46:49,752 --> 00:46:52,711
Speaker 1: think about approaching another crime scene again?

761
00:46:53,632 --> 00:46:57,672
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, but it probably my answer might might surprise

762
00:46:57,752 --> 00:47:00,352
Speaker 2: you in a way. I would do I would do

763
00:47:00,431 --> 00:47:06,872
Speaker 2: another one again, because because what's different about this is

764
00:47:07,872 --> 00:47:14,591
Speaker 2: it's really brought me closer to you know, typically in

765
00:47:14,632 --> 00:47:18,072
Speaker 2: a story, you have sources, right, and you build trust

766
00:47:18,112 --> 00:47:21,712
Speaker 2: with those sources, and you can have sources you know,

767
00:47:21,592 --> 00:47:23,392
Speaker 2: you know, I've been a journalist for a long time.

768
00:47:23,431 --> 00:47:25,832
Speaker 2: At this point, you know, you come back to again

769
00:47:25,872 --> 00:47:29,152
Speaker 2: and again and again in your career, at least the

770
00:47:29,192 --> 00:47:33,911
Speaker 2: people in this book. It was. What happened was so

771
00:47:33,991 --> 00:47:37,951
Speaker 2: traumatic and it was so emotional. And I went into

772
00:47:37,991 --> 00:47:40,592
Speaker 2: it because my kids are the same age as the victims,

773
00:47:40,911 --> 00:47:43,152
Speaker 2: and they were both in college at the same time,

774
00:47:43,792 --> 00:47:46,592
Speaker 2: and my sons are twins. Ethan Chapin was a triplet,

775
00:47:47,431 --> 00:47:50,352
Speaker 2: you know. For me, this story was much more personal.

776
00:47:51,232 --> 00:47:55,551
Speaker 2: It became much more personal than the books I normally write,

777
00:47:55,592 --> 00:47:59,031
Speaker 2: which are about corruption and power systems and things like that.

778
00:47:59,832 --> 00:48:03,792
Speaker 2: And in a way, because of that, I feel that

779
00:48:03,832 --> 00:48:09,511
Speaker 2: this book matters so much more. And having now co

780
00:48:09,592 --> 00:48:13,151
Speaker 2: authored a book that I feel matters, I would, you know,

781
00:48:13,792 --> 00:48:16,152
Speaker 2: in some ways, I feel that out of a tragedy,

782
00:48:16,471 --> 00:48:20,312
Speaker 2: some good we do get to now have a book

783
00:48:20,352 --> 00:48:25,392
Speaker 2: in which xama Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie are won't be forgotten.

784
00:48:26,312 --> 00:48:28,712
Speaker 2: And so would I do it again, Yes, I would,

785
00:48:28,792 --> 00:48:30,911
Speaker 2: because you see the worst of humanity, but you also

786
00:48:30,911 --> 00:48:32,512
Speaker 2: see the best.

787
00:48:33,031 --> 00:48:35,312
Speaker 1: Some of the book two does focus in on what

788
00:48:35,431 --> 00:48:38,832
Speaker 1: life will be like in jail for Brian Coberger, because

789
00:48:39,752 --> 00:48:42,792
Speaker 1: he has been sentenced to four life sentences without parole.

790
00:48:44,471 --> 00:48:48,191
Speaker 1: But you mentioned in the book that there would be

791
00:48:48,272 --> 00:48:51,191
Speaker 1: some kind of kudos for another prisoner if they were

792
00:48:51,272 --> 00:48:55,232
Speaker 1: to take him out. Essentially, so he's probably going to

793
00:48:55,431 --> 00:48:59,671
Speaker 1: exist in isolation from now until forever. Is that how

794
00:48:59,672 --> 00:49:00,072
Speaker 1: it works?

795
00:49:00,232 --> 00:49:02,392
Speaker 2: That is a great question. I mean, you heard the

796
00:49:02,431 --> 00:49:05,471
Speaker 2: Gonzalbas family. You know that they're hoping he's absolutely not

797
00:49:05,551 --> 00:49:10,112
Speaker 2: in isolation, and then it goes in gets thoroughly messed

798
00:49:10,192 --> 00:49:15,511
Speaker 2: up on the inside. You know, it's a possibility. You know,

799
00:49:15,592 --> 00:49:19,631
Speaker 2: when people do what he's done. You know, life in

800
00:49:19,672 --> 00:49:22,671
Speaker 2: prison can be not pretty. I guess now there are

801
00:49:22,672 --> 00:49:24,951
Speaker 2: so many unanswered questions we wait to see.

802
00:49:25,471 --> 00:49:29,631
Speaker 1: I think I wanted to end this conversation out of

803
00:49:29,672 --> 00:49:32,592
Speaker 1: respect for the four young people who lost their lives.

804
00:49:33,991 --> 00:49:36,392
Speaker 1: It is called the Idaho for I didn't want to

805
00:49:36,471 --> 00:49:40,032
Speaker 1: end this talking about Brian Coberger, because you're right, men

806
00:49:40,632 --> 00:49:44,151
Speaker 1: like him that we've seen, and we can include you know,

807
00:49:44,272 --> 00:49:48,591
Speaker 1: the christ Church terrorist and you know Elliot who you

808
00:49:48,632 --> 00:49:53,471
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. These men who congregated initially on four Chan

809
00:49:53,592 --> 00:49:56,191
Speaker 1: and who found communities that supported them in their views

810
00:49:56,232 --> 00:49:58,392
Speaker 1: and that led them to take the lives of other people.

811
00:49:58,911 --> 00:50:01,911
Speaker 1: They should not be the spotlight at the end of

812
00:50:01,951 --> 00:50:04,671
Speaker 1: all of this. So I would love you to tell

813
00:50:04,712 --> 00:50:11,072
Speaker 1: me what you learned about Zanna and Ethan and Maddie

814
00:50:11,112 --> 00:50:15,352
Speaker 1: and Kaylee and the legacy that they leave behind, the

815
00:50:15,392 --> 00:50:19,272
Speaker 1: impact that they've had on their friends, and the support

816
00:50:19,352 --> 00:50:20,991
Speaker 1: that those people now find in each other.

817
00:50:22,192 --> 00:50:28,752
Speaker 2: Well, you know, these were four beautiful young adults on

818
00:50:28,872 --> 00:50:34,352
Speaker 2: the cusp of everything, full of promise, and I think

819
00:50:34,392 --> 00:50:41,431
Speaker 2: that the book really brings alive. They're different personalities, you know.

820
00:50:41,592 --> 00:50:48,511
Speaker 2: Kaylee was the go getter, hustler, independent young woman you

821
00:50:48,551 --> 00:50:53,471
Speaker 2: know very much loved her childhood boyfriend, but wanted freedom,

822
00:50:53,872 --> 00:50:57,152
Speaker 2: wanted to go do stuff by herself first, and was

823
00:50:57,192 --> 00:51:00,792
Speaker 2: literally literally on the point of doing that. Had already

824
00:51:01,031 --> 00:51:04,552
Speaker 2: left the campus, was about to graduate. Maddie her best

825
00:51:04,592 --> 00:51:09,832
Speaker 2: friend and only child, that angel, you know, angel and

826
00:51:09,911 --> 00:51:15,071
Speaker 2: her family absolutely loved. She had found Jake, the guy

827
00:51:15,232 --> 00:51:17,872
Speaker 2: she thought she was going to be her forever person.

828
00:51:18,272 --> 00:51:22,752
Speaker 2: He'd already graduated, they were planning a life together as

829
00:51:22,752 --> 00:51:25,272
Speaker 2: soon as she graduated. She had made the best of

830
00:51:25,312 --> 00:51:28,312
Speaker 2: a bad situation when she didn't get into the same

831
00:51:28,352 --> 00:51:32,352
Speaker 2: sorority as Kaylee, and she had become, you know, the

832
00:51:32,471 --> 00:51:35,792
Speaker 2: curator of the Instagram feed of Pi Fi the sorority,

833
00:51:35,832 --> 00:51:40,832
Speaker 2: which was a very big deal, and so she too

834
00:51:41,112 --> 00:51:47,312
Speaker 2: was in this great place Xana. I mean the irony

835
00:51:47,792 --> 00:51:53,551
Speaker 2: of Xana's death, because here was a young woman who

836
00:51:53,632 --> 00:52:00,872
Speaker 2: was totally carefree, hadn't thought about the future, almost deliberately,

837
00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:06,792
Speaker 2: hadn't made any plans until she meets Ethan Chapin, falls

838
00:52:06,792 --> 00:52:11,312
Speaker 2: in love and for the first time that summer when

839
00:52:11,312 --> 00:52:16,071
Speaker 2: she goes and stays with the Chapin family and she

840
00:52:16,112 --> 00:52:18,591
Speaker 2: sees them all and they're playing golf and they're going

841
00:52:18,632 --> 00:52:21,711
Speaker 2: out boating and they're having a great time, and she

842
00:52:21,752 --> 00:52:24,472
Speaker 2: suddenly thinks, you know, I want I do want a future.

843
00:52:24,592 --> 00:52:28,111
Speaker 2: I want to grow old with Ethan. I you know,

844
00:52:28,192 --> 00:52:32,632
Speaker 2: she opens a bank account, she starts to save money,

845
00:52:32,752 --> 00:52:36,432
Speaker 2: she decorates her room for the first time. She shows

846
00:52:36,471 --> 00:52:40,991
Speaker 2: this after her best friend's mom and so, you know,

847
00:52:41,312 --> 00:52:45,031
Speaker 2: to be cut down having just made all these decisions,

848
00:52:45,152 --> 00:52:50,071
Speaker 2: I mean, the tragic, tragic timing of that. And then

849
00:52:50,112 --> 00:52:52,392
Speaker 2: you have Ethan Chapin, who.

850
00:52:54,152 --> 00:53:01,512
Speaker 4: Was, you know, this sort of popular, loved athletic god,

851
00:53:01,712 --> 00:53:04,392
Speaker 4: the kind of guy who's a leader without trying to

852
00:53:04,471 --> 00:53:06,951
Speaker 4: be a leader, the guy.

853
00:53:06,752 --> 00:53:11,272
Speaker 2: Everybody looks up to. But who's effortless about it, the

854
00:53:11,352 --> 00:53:14,911
Speaker 2: kind of guy who has a smile and welcomes absolutely

855
00:53:15,031 --> 00:53:21,551
Speaker 2: everybody into the room. And who you know, people described

856
00:53:21,592 --> 00:53:27,192
Speaker 2: as the male version of Xana, you know, totally charismatic,

857
00:53:27,312 --> 00:53:31,312
Speaker 2: the eldest of triplets, and just somebody who was everybody's rock.

858
00:53:31,951 --> 00:53:36,832
Speaker 2: I mean, he's be four great, great kids, and you know,

859
00:53:36,951 --> 00:53:40,392
Speaker 2: I hope people read the book and fall in love

860
00:53:40,431 --> 00:53:43,392
Speaker 2: with them as they deserve to be.

861
00:53:48,072 --> 00:53:52,152
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger pleaded guilty in twenty twenty five after initially

862
00:53:52,192 --> 00:53:55,472
Speaker 1: trying to defend his innocence. He was sentenced in July

863
00:53:55,632 --> 00:53:59,432
Speaker 1: to four life sentences for the deaths of Xanna, Ethan, Kaylee,

864
00:53:59,712 --> 00:54:04,072
Speaker 1: and Maddie. He is not eligible for parole. In court,

865
00:54:04,511 --> 00:54:08,071
Speaker 1: Dylan read out her victim impact state. She said what

866
00:54:08,232 --> 00:54:11,792
Speaker 1: he did shattered me in places I didn't know could break.

867
00:54:12,232 --> 00:54:14,392
Speaker 1: I couldn't be alone. I had to sleep in my

868
00:54:14,471 --> 00:54:17,232
Speaker 1: mum's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes,

869
00:54:17,991 --> 00:54:21,671
Speaker 1: terrified that if I blinked someone might be there. It's

870
00:54:21,712 --> 00:54:26,192
Speaker 1: far beyond anxiety, she admitted. It's my body reliving everything

871
00:54:26,431 --> 00:54:29,951
Speaker 1: over and over again. My nervous system never got the

872
00:54:29,991 --> 00:54:33,192
Speaker 1: message that it's over and it won't let me forget

873
00:54:33,192 --> 00:54:36,591
Speaker 1: what he did to them. People call me strong, they

874
00:54:36,592 --> 00:54:39,152
Speaker 1: say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my

875
00:54:39,272 --> 00:54:42,512
Speaker 1: new reality looks like. They don't see the panic attacks,

876
00:54:42,551 --> 00:54:48,111
Speaker 1: the hypervigilance, the exhaustion of Coburger. Dylan said, he is

877
00:54:48,152 --> 00:54:52,072
Speaker 1: a hollow vessel, something less than human, a body without empathy,

878
00:54:52,152 --> 00:54:58,792
Speaker 1: without remorse. He chose destruction, he chose evil. He feels nothing.

879
00:54:59,312 --> 00:55:02,752
Speaker 1: He tried to take everything from me, Dylan said, my friends,

880
00:55:03,112 --> 00:55:07,991
Speaker 1: my safety, my identity, my future. When asked to explain

881
00:55:08,072 --> 00:55:10,231
Speaker 1: his motive for the senseless killing of the four young

882
00:55:10,272 --> 00:55:14,152
Speaker 1: students in court, Coburger leaned forward in his chair and

883
00:55:14,232 --> 00:55:19,511
Speaker 1: set into the microphone. I respectfully decline coward. Someone from

884
00:55:19,551 --> 00:55:23,232
Speaker 1: the crowd yelled him. The judge said though no story

885
00:55:23,272 --> 00:55:27,192
Speaker 1: he could tell would be believed or satisfactory. The prosecution

886
00:55:27,272 --> 00:55:29,951
Speaker 1: said it would only allow him to create his own narrative.

887
00:55:30,511 --> 00:55:33,071
Speaker 1: So while we all want to understand what would make

888
00:55:33,152 --> 00:55:36,431
Speaker 1: someone do that, maybe it's better not to try and

889
00:55:36,471 --> 00:55:38,991
Speaker 1: understand the mind of a killer, at least not on

890
00:55:39,031 --> 00:55:42,312
Speaker 1: his terms. Thank you to Vicky for helping us tell

891
00:55:42,312 --> 00:55:44,431
Speaker 1: this story. You can learn more about her book at

892
00:55:44,431 --> 00:55:46,712
Speaker 1: the link in our show notes. If you liked this

893
00:55:46,792 --> 00:55:48,791
Speaker 1: episode and want to hear more from guests like Vicki

894
00:55:48,951 --> 00:55:51,671
Speaker 1: about these sorts of cases, send us an email at

895
00:55:51,672 --> 00:55:55,111
Speaker 1: true Crime at mmamea dot com today. You please also

896
00:55:55,152 --> 00:55:57,471
Speaker 1: leave us a rating and review on Apples, Spotify, or

897
00:55:57,511 --> 00:55:59,431
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcast, so let us know

898
00:55:59,471 --> 00:56:02,352
Speaker 1: what you think of the show. True Crime Conversations is

899
00:56:02,352 --> 00:56:05,511
Speaker 1: a Mumma mea podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and

900
00:56:05,551 --> 00:56:08,632
Speaker 1: produced by Time Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

901
00:56:09,112 --> 00:56:11,711
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

902
00:56:11,872 --> 00:56:19,471
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation. Oh hey, they're True Crime

903
00:56:19,511 --> 00:56:22,991
Speaker 1: listeners Claire Murphy here. One in five Australians experience a

904
00:56:23,072 --> 00:56:26,312
Speaker 1: mental health condition every year, and yet so many people

905
00:56:26,352 --> 00:56:29,431
Speaker 1: still suffer in silence. We know how powerful it can

906
00:56:29,511 --> 00:56:32,392
Speaker 1: be to open up, even just a little, so that's

907
00:56:32,392 --> 00:56:35,151
Speaker 1: why we're sharing this episode from I Never Told You This,

908
00:56:35,431 --> 00:56:39,152
Speaker 1: a series all about honest, raw conversations that remind us

909
00:56:39,152 --> 00:56:41,991
Speaker 1: we're not alone in what we're feeling. It's a powerful

910
00:56:42,031 --> 00:56:44,952
Speaker 1: listen and if it resonates with you, there's more waiting

911
00:56:44,951 --> 00:56:47,551
Speaker 1: over in the but are you happy? Podcast feed? This

912
00:56:47,592 --> 00:56:49,392
Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by Medibank.

913
00:56:49,592 --> 00:56:52,272
Speaker 5: I'm a Shiny Dante host of But Are You Happy?

914
00:56:52,752 --> 00:56:53,511
Speaker 1: Did you know that.

915
00:56:53,551 --> 00:56:56,991
Speaker 5: One in five Australians experience and mental health condition each year,

916
00:56:57,511 --> 00:57:01,112
Speaker 5: Yet too many suffer in silence. Talking about our feelings

917
00:57:01,152 --> 00:57:03,992
Speaker 5: and experiences is one of the most powerful steps towards

918
00:57:04,031 --> 00:57:07,991
Speaker 5: healing and knowing we're not alone. That's why we're introducing

919
00:57:08,112 --> 00:57:11,672
Speaker 5: I Never told You This, a series created to spark honest,

920
00:57:11,752 --> 00:57:15,792
Speaker 5: meaningful conversations that support better mental well being. Brought to

921
00:57:15,832 --> 00:57:19,992
Speaker 5: you by Meddibank. I have anxiety myself. I don't even

922
00:57:19,992 --> 00:57:20,631
Speaker 5: know what to do with it.

923
00:57:20,712 --> 00:57:21,952
Speaker 3: Do you know how to deal with it? I feel

924
00:57:21,952 --> 00:57:23,272
Speaker 3: like we don't really know how to deal with it.

925
00:57:23,312 --> 00:57:25,472
Speaker 3: We just kind of get up and just seize the day.

926
00:57:25,512 --> 00:57:26,792
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter how you're feeling.

927
00:57:27,072 --> 00:57:30,791
Speaker 6: Soldier on two People, One big reveal, I never told

928
00:57:30,832 --> 00:57:33,232
Speaker 6: you this a simple card game where one question could

929
00:57:33,312 --> 00:57:34,112
Speaker 6: change everything.

930
00:57:34,392 --> 00:57:36,912
Speaker 1: It starts like, what's more things brings joy?

931
00:57:37,232 --> 00:57:38,472
Speaker 7: I'm not going to answer that.

932
00:57:39,512 --> 00:57:42,112
Speaker 6: Then comes the moment that could shift a relationship forever.

933
00:57:42,352 --> 00:57:45,072
Speaker 6: As they finished this sentence, I never told you this.

934
00:57:45,272 --> 00:57:47,232
Speaker 1: I've never told you They never told you this.

935
00:57:50,312 --> 00:57:53,992
Speaker 6: Today Reality TV influences. Mother and daughter duo Mary and

936
00:57:54,032 --> 00:57:56,752
Speaker 6: Martha Califdidas will be sitting down together.

937
00:57:56,752 --> 00:57:58,632
Speaker 7: Quite nervous, but I'm always nervous.

938
00:57:59,192 --> 00:58:01,432
Speaker 6: Mary has something big to reveal to her daughter.

939
00:58:01,672 --> 00:58:04,191
Speaker 7: I don't think she's expecting me to say what I'm

940
00:58:04,192 --> 00:58:04,832
Speaker 7: going to say.

941
00:58:05,912 --> 00:58:06,832
Speaker 1: Welcome Matha.

942
00:58:06,912 --> 00:58:08,952
Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me married. This is a bit

943
00:58:09,192 --> 00:58:10,232
Speaker 3: new for us, I know.

944
00:58:10,632 --> 00:58:11,032
Speaker 1: Welcome.

945
00:58:11,752 --> 00:58:14,952
Speaker 7: So today we're going to play a little game with

946
00:58:15,072 --> 00:58:17,912
Speaker 7: the Medibank family roast cards. Are you ready to play?

947
00:58:18,112 --> 00:58:20,312
Speaker 3: Yes, let's get into this game. I think we need

948
00:58:20,352 --> 00:58:20,992
Speaker 3: a little game.

949
00:58:21,192 --> 00:58:23,072
Speaker 7: So who picks? Maybe you go for it?

950
00:58:23,192 --> 00:58:23,512
Speaker 1: Oh?

951
00:58:24,032 --> 00:58:25,272
Speaker 7: Are you ready?

952
00:58:25,752 --> 00:58:25,872
Speaker 3: Oh?

953
00:58:26,512 --> 00:58:30,192
Speaker 7: What is the most ridiculous fashion trend you ever followed?

954
00:58:30,392 --> 00:58:33,992
Speaker 7: Those thick fa belts that were like a boob troop

955
00:58:34,032 --> 00:58:36,152
Speaker 7: and we'd wear them over the jeans. That has to

956
00:58:36,192 --> 00:58:38,552
Speaker 7: be one of the ugliest things I ever did. I'm

957
00:58:38,592 --> 00:58:40,751
Speaker 7: five foot two and that made me four foot two.

958
00:58:40,912 --> 00:58:43,792
Speaker 7: I probably told you, but you wouldn't probably listen.

959
00:58:43,832 --> 00:58:45,352
Speaker 3: Here we go. She had to throw that one in

960
00:58:45,432 --> 00:58:48,472
Speaker 3: my face and just saying kid, just saying, all right,

961
00:58:48,552 --> 00:58:51,631
Speaker 3: so I'll pick a card. Oh what is something I

962
00:58:51,872 --> 00:58:54,552
Speaker 3: do that grosses you out? I don't think you do

963
00:58:54,632 --> 00:58:58,352
Speaker 3: anything They do not. No, that's right, good answer, Mary.

964
00:58:58,512 --> 00:58:59,192
Speaker 7: What about me?

965
00:58:59,712 --> 00:59:02,392
Speaker 3: Oh don't because I can say so many things.

966
00:59:02,352 --> 00:59:05,711
Speaker 7: I bring it to the table. Cutting your cuticles, well,

967
00:59:05,752 --> 00:59:07,952
Speaker 7: that's just like meditation. If you go and.

968
00:59:07,872 --> 00:59:09,751
Speaker 3: Get that done and then you like to do more

969
00:59:09,792 --> 00:59:12,112
Speaker 3: and just keep cutting the cuticle, it must be a

970
00:59:12,192 --> 00:59:14,152
Speaker 3: nervous It's definitely a nervous habit.

971
00:59:14,312 --> 00:59:18,232
Speaker 7: Okay, I'll take that all right, go next? Oh is

972
00:59:18,272 --> 00:59:23,552
Speaker 7: that me? What do you think your most useless talent is?

973
00:59:23,712 --> 00:59:24,592
Speaker 7: You've got plenty of those.

974
00:59:24,712 --> 00:59:27,352
Speaker 3: I don't think I've got any. I just time for

975
00:59:27,472 --> 00:59:28,872
Speaker 3: uselessness in our family.

976
00:59:29,192 --> 00:59:29,792
Speaker 7: I agree.

977
00:59:29,992 --> 00:59:32,752
Speaker 3: What about how you can you start singing every single

978
00:59:32,792 --> 00:59:36,152
Speaker 3: commercial song that's ever come on since like nineteen eighty

979
00:59:37,272 --> 00:59:38,592
Speaker 3: fifties from the Earth.

980
00:59:39,992 --> 00:59:45,352
Speaker 7: I'm going to pick the next card. I never told

981
00:59:45,392 --> 00:59:54,592
Speaker 7: you this. When you went on reality TV. All these

982
00:59:54,672 --> 00:59:58,832
Speaker 7: comments would come in on social media. It actually affected me,

983
00:59:59,912 --> 01:00:02,112
Speaker 7: but I didn't want to show you that it was

984
01:00:02,152 --> 01:00:05,631
Speaker 7: affecting me. All these comments that were coming in, and

985
01:00:05,712 --> 01:00:08,112
Speaker 7: I'd be sta up till three four in the morning,

986
01:00:08,272 --> 01:00:12,151
Speaker 7: and I didn't realize how toxic social media can be.

987
01:00:12,432 --> 01:00:16,392
Speaker 7: I didn't know as a parent how I can comfort you.

988
01:00:16,432 --> 01:00:18,992
Speaker 3: No, I can totally understand how that would have affected you.

989
01:00:19,552 --> 01:00:22,992
Speaker 3: With the trolls on the internet, they think they know me,

990
01:00:23,232 --> 01:00:25,352
Speaker 3: but you really know me, and so you were reading

991
01:00:25,432 --> 01:00:27,792
Speaker 3: things that weren't true, and then that would be just

992
01:00:27,952 --> 01:00:28,992
Speaker 3: endless cycle.

993
01:00:29,192 --> 01:00:31,912
Speaker 7: Now you're a parent, and I'm sure you would probably

994
01:00:31,912 --> 01:00:32,232
Speaker 7: do the.

995
01:00:32,192 --> 01:00:35,152
Speaker 3: Same Now that I'm a parent, I just want to

996
01:00:35,192 --> 01:00:36,152
Speaker 3: protect him from.

997
01:00:35,992 --> 01:00:38,872
Speaker 7: Everything I could only imagine. And that's why I didn't

998
01:00:38,912 --> 01:00:42,151
Speaker 7: want to burden you with I've got anxiety. I can't sleep,

999
01:00:42,272 --> 01:00:45,791
Speaker 7: I was I had shortness of breath, like I was thinking, mom,

1000
01:00:45,872 --> 01:00:47,872
Speaker 7: don't yeah, but that's how it was.

1001
01:00:49,312 --> 01:00:51,592
Speaker 3: I think to some degree I did have some idea,

1002
01:00:51,632 --> 01:00:55,392
Speaker 3: because you did start acting really strange. I definitely think.

1003
01:00:55,472 --> 01:00:58,392
Speaker 3: I know you were staying up really late looking at comments,

1004
01:00:58,472 --> 01:01:01,152
Speaker 3: and I remember just being to you like, don't worry

1005
01:01:01,152 --> 01:01:03,872
Speaker 3: about it, man, like it's fine. But I think at

1006
01:01:03,872 --> 01:01:07,472
Speaker 3: the time I didn't want to show you either that

1007
01:01:07,672 --> 01:01:09,872
Speaker 3: it was affecting me, so I would just say, oh

1008
01:01:10,072 --> 01:01:12,432
Speaker 3: to you, like it doesn't matter, but really, like I

1009
01:01:12,472 --> 01:01:14,832
Speaker 3: would be in my room staying up bringing the comments

1010
01:01:14,832 --> 01:01:17,352
Speaker 3: as well. So I have anxiety myself. I don't even

1011
01:01:17,392 --> 01:01:18,552
Speaker 3: know what to do with it. Do you know how

1012
01:01:18,552 --> 01:01:19,952
Speaker 3: to deal with it. I feel like we don't really

1013
01:01:19,952 --> 01:01:21,352
Speaker 3: know how to deal with it. We just kind of

1014
01:01:21,592 --> 01:01:23,711
Speaker 3: move on with the day and just keep the day going,

1015
01:01:23,752 --> 01:01:30,032
Speaker 3: but doesn't mean that the anxiety goes away.

1016
01:01:30,832 --> 01:01:33,072
Speaker 5: The rest of this episode of I Never told you this?

1017
01:01:33,392 --> 01:01:38,552
Speaker 5: Right after the break, what's something you wish you knew

1018
01:01:38,552 --> 01:01:42,072
Speaker 5: about your family? Get together and play the Medibank Family

1019
01:01:42,192 --> 01:01:44,832
Speaker 5: Roast to find out. It's the card game design to

1020
01:01:44,832 --> 01:01:48,032
Speaker 5: get families connecting and talking because when the bonds of

1021
01:01:48,072 --> 01:01:51,432
Speaker 5: family are stronger, Australia is stronger. So get around the

1022
01:01:51,512 --> 01:01:54,712
Speaker 5: dinner table, a tasty conversation is about to be served.

1023
01:01:55,352 --> 01:01:58,432
Speaker 5: Search Medibank Family Roast Live better with Medibank.

1024
01:02:02,712 --> 01:02:05,552
Speaker 7: Thinking back, I should have just been more open and

1025
01:02:05,592 --> 01:02:08,072
Speaker 7: told you, like, you know what, it's normal to feel

1026
01:02:08,072 --> 01:02:10,032
Speaker 7: this way because I'm feeling this way.

1027
01:02:10,232 --> 01:02:10,432
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1028
01:02:10,432 --> 01:02:12,432
Speaker 3: I think if this had done that, we probably would

1029
01:02:12,472 --> 01:02:14,832
Speaker 3: have been able to, you know, commune and pack it

1030
01:02:14,912 --> 01:02:16,952
Speaker 3: and then just deal with it in the open instead

1031
01:02:16,952 --> 01:02:18,352
Speaker 3: of dealing with it separately in.

1032
01:02:18,352 --> 01:02:19,432
Speaker 1: Our different rooms.

1033
01:02:19,672 --> 01:02:19,952
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1034
01:02:19,992 --> 01:02:22,791
Speaker 3: But that's very That's very much what our family does,

1035
01:02:22,832 --> 01:02:26,992
Speaker 3: though we're not very good at revealing, which is strange

1036
01:02:27,352 --> 01:02:30,992
Speaker 3: because we're so open. That's about everything about movements and

1037
01:02:31,032 --> 01:02:34,472
Speaker 3: everything because we've brought up to be like quite hard and.

1038
01:02:34,392 --> 01:02:35,832
Speaker 7: Like strong and tarbodic.

1039
01:02:36,032 --> 01:02:37,352
Speaker 1: No, you can't get over it.

1040
01:02:37,472 --> 01:02:39,512
Speaker 3: Get up and just seize the day. It doesn't matter

1041
01:02:39,552 --> 01:02:41,032
Speaker 3: how you're feeling. Soldier on.

1042
01:02:42,072 --> 01:02:44,832
Speaker 7: When I was growing up, our parents were very strict.

1043
01:02:44,832 --> 01:02:45,872
Speaker 7: They never showed emotion.

1044
01:02:46,032 --> 01:02:48,512
Speaker 3: They never you know, I just find that hard to believe.

1045
01:02:48,592 --> 01:02:48,752
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1046
01:02:48,792 --> 01:02:52,592
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is like the most softest, sweetest, gentlest, emotional,

1047
01:02:53,152 --> 01:02:54,192
Speaker 3: loving caring.

1048
01:02:54,312 --> 01:02:55,592
Speaker 7: It wasn't when we were growing up.

1049
01:02:55,632 --> 01:02:59,272
Speaker 1: I just find it hard to believe she was strict.

1050
01:02:59,392 --> 01:02:59,872
Speaker 1: Get up.

1051
01:02:59,952 --> 01:03:04,151
Speaker 3: See what old age does. It really softens you, It.

1052
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:10,992
Speaker 7: Breaks you down with like searching and being like my

1053
01:03:11,072 --> 01:03:13,952
Speaker 7: own little detective. I noticed that a lot of these

1054
01:03:14,152 --> 01:03:18,072
Speaker 7: comments weren't coming from young kids that were just being mean.

1055
01:03:18,232 --> 01:03:21,512
Speaker 7: These were from parents that had kids. How could you

1056
01:03:22,112 --> 01:03:26,032
Speaker 7: try and destroy someone else's child. People want kids to

1057
01:03:26,072 --> 01:03:28,752
Speaker 7: be kind, but they don't teach them the tools to

1058
01:03:28,792 --> 01:03:31,832
Speaker 7: be kind and not to bring other people down. You know,

1059
01:03:31,952 --> 01:03:34,791
Speaker 7: like kids are mean today. I hate that I would

1060
01:03:35,072 --> 01:03:37,672
Speaker 7: learn that from somewhere. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.

1061
01:03:38,032 --> 01:03:40,832
Speaker 7: The parents are the ones that need to actually change.

1062
01:03:41,592 --> 01:03:43,352
Speaker 3: I kind of feel a bit sad for you. In

1063
01:03:43,352 --> 01:03:44,912
Speaker 3: a way that you kind of dealt with that on

1064
01:03:44,952 --> 01:03:45,312
Speaker 3: your own.

1065
01:03:46,512 --> 01:03:49,952
Speaker 7: That's what parents do, you know. They try to protect

1066
01:03:50,072 --> 01:03:52,672
Speaker 7: I think, their kids as much as they can.

1067
01:03:52,952 --> 01:03:53,192
Speaker 3: You know.

1068
01:03:55,152 --> 01:03:58,592
Speaker 7: So if your son was dealing with anxiety, how would

1069
01:03:58,632 --> 01:03:59,952
Speaker 7: you help him?

1070
01:04:00,352 --> 01:04:00,992
Speaker 2: Growing up?

1071
01:04:01,192 --> 01:04:05,151
Speaker 3: You always said those that matter don't mind, and those

1072
01:04:05,192 --> 01:04:07,912
Speaker 3: that mind don't matter. It doesn't really matter because who

1073
01:04:07,912 --> 01:04:10,232
Speaker 3: are these people to you? As long as like you know, you,

1074
01:04:10,232 --> 01:04:12,672
Speaker 3: your friends, your family, the people that you care about,

1075
01:04:13,112 --> 01:04:15,592
Speaker 3: the opinions of others don't really matter.

1076
01:04:16,712 --> 01:04:17,432
Speaker 1: That's good.

1077
01:04:17,552 --> 01:04:21,072
Speaker 3: At least you've got something stuck from all those years.

1078
01:04:22,912 --> 01:04:24,392
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not easy being a parent.

1079
01:04:24,472 --> 01:04:26,832
Speaker 3: It's so not It's the hardest thing ever. It's so

1080
01:04:26,952 --> 01:04:31,832
Speaker 3: not easy being a parent. I appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Mary.

1081
01:04:31,992 --> 01:04:37,392
Speaker 3: No worries any time. Yeah, and it's nice to know

1082
01:04:37,432 --> 01:04:39,872
Speaker 3: that you're human under all that. Yeah, it's nice to

1083
01:04:39,912 --> 01:04:42,512
Speaker 3: know that under all there there is actually some flesh

1084
01:04:42,512 --> 01:04:46,592
Speaker 3: and blood. Well done, fist pump, Oh is that something

1085
01:04:46,632 --> 01:04:47,312
Speaker 3: we do still?

1086
01:04:54,072 --> 01:04:56,992
Speaker 5: This episode was brought to you by Medibank. Live Better

1087
01:04:57,072 --> 01:05:00,632
Speaker 5: with Medibank. If this conversation brought up any strong feelings

1088
01:05:00,632 --> 01:05:03,472
Speaker 5: for you, don't forget There is help out there. Please

1089
01:05:03,512 --> 01:05:05,032
Speaker 5: see show notes for resources